43: What If I Forget Her? The Fear of Letting Go

Episode 43: What If I Forget Her?

One of the fears many widowers carry isn't losing a memory—it's losing the connection behind it.

In this episode, Jamal and David tackle a question that often goes unspoken: What if I forget her? They share the moments that stop you in your tracks—the conversation you can't quite place, the sound of her voice that's harder to recall, the story whose details have become fuzzy with time. They discuss the pressure many grieving spouses feel to preserve every memory, every photo, every keepsake, as if forgetting a detail somehow means losing the person.

Together, they explore how memories naturally evolve, why children often become memory keepers too, and how some moments unexpectedly grow stronger while others fade. Most importantly, they challenge the belief that memory and love are the same thing. Because while memories may change over time, the impact of the people we loved continues to shape who we are.

Getting Back Up: Finding Life After Death is a podcast that explores the raw, unfiltered reality of surviving profound personal loss—and finding a way forward.  The idea for the podcast was born after David and Jamal met in 2023. Both widowers, who had lost their wives to cancer, quickly found a deep connection through multiple conversations about pain, perseverance, and parenthood. They realized that while men often bond over music, sports, or TV, they rarely speak candidly about loss or emotional recovery. Getting Back Up was created to change that narrative—blending the everyday with the existential in a format that’s as relatable as it is real. 

Getting knocked down is part of life. Getting back up is how we live. 

Hosts: David McClain & Jamal Jones
Executive Director: Marlon Jackson 
Editing: Marlon Jackson
Music: 
Grenada, "Treasure" 
McDonald, Otis, "Phife for Life", otismusic.com

Thank you for listening! Follow us on Instagram/TikTok @getbackuppodcast and on X @GBUpodcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Welcome to Getting Back Up with brief meeting from two men, two fathers, and one shared journey of rebuilding.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

We're talking about life after cancer, love, love, and everything no one tells you.

SPEAKER_06 0:26

I'm David McLean. And I'm Jamal Jrones, and welcome to Getting Back Up Podcast, Binding Life After Death.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

Jamal, do you ever have that moment where you think you'll forget your late wife? Those moments, something about her you you can't recall immediately.

SPEAKER_06 0:46

Or the moment where yes, so yes. But it's also the moment where you're like, oh shoot, I I I did forget this thing.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

And it could be a sense of panic in that situation. Or or guilt, right, at that same time.

SPEAKER_06 1:04

Yeah, and I think it happens because you're like, you you feel like it's bigger than forgetting something in particular. You feel like you're forgetting history. Yeah, exactly. Right. I think that's that's that's part of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Yeah, I I think today in particular, that's what we want to talk about, this fear that a lot of widowers carry with them, and they they rarely talk about it, especially out loud. And that's what if I forget about her or should I?

SPEAKER_07 1:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Right?

unknown 1:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Really our intention today is to make widowers and and widows, everyone, to really understand that that healing and remembering aren't competing goals.

SPEAKER_06 1:51

Yeah, you can't stay stuck. We always say you can't stay stuck, stay stuck in the past, and you can't stay stuck, and you don't have to in order to be connected, right? You're gonna always be connected to these people.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

Yeah, man. I I I can remember trying to recall specific conversations with Nal with Nalani one day, especially as different household routine things are coming up. And like how did that like how did that sit with you? I I mean I couldn't place those calls uh or or those conversations uh immediately that that I I just couldn't and then I was thinking, man, is this the slipping away and forgetting?

SPEAKER_06 2:35

Yeah, it it almost stops you like in in that in your tracks in that moment.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

It did, and and it and it wasn't really just about a specific conversation. I I think it was really about the those conversations that that we have, maybe maybe in total, yeah. That one by one, a lot of those are forgotten because I've got to move forward without that person being done.

SPEAKER_06 2:59

Yeah, that makes sense. Because I know for me, like one of the things that I've dealt with, and I I mean I still deal with it, right? Like, and the further and further you get away from it, you know, especially like they always say, like, you know, you shouldn't memorialize, so to speak, like the loss in a way, you you start getting to point where you start forgetting the details, you start forgetting kind of the time. You know, did this happen on the was that 2010 or was that 2015? Yeah, or and you you start enter, you know, you start replacing things. It I say part of it is age.

SPEAKER_05 3:35

You just start to get right, it starts down in the like the grandpa, oh, you know, was that 1998?

SPEAKER_06 3:44

And I mean, you know, and and it's even more important, but there's a part where it's important even because you're trying to recall not just your story, but also your your your late spouse's story for your children. Yeah, that's true, right? Like, even that component of like trying to help them piece together history, yeah, right? And then again, is it is it lost, right? Is it forgotten? Or like is the burden of carrying all of that supposed to be on us?

SPEAKER_02 4:11

What when can you remember for you where it started to get fuzzy? Like when was when was that time for you?

SPEAKER_06 4:18

I think I would say probably around I I definitely think probably around year five, right? Where you know, we had moved forward, I got and remarried, um, you know, we had we had moved, right? So so much of it was trying to recall these details. Um you know, you get past certain milestones like birthdays or holidays or days that were important to to for me for for my late wife Janice, and you get past that day and you look, oh shoot, we forgot that day, right? I forgot this. This you know, Janice loved that day. I would have loved to share that with my kids. And and I I think it it it starts, you know, for me it started around that time. But I think it organically things are gonna slip, right? There's gonna be times.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

But let me ask you, let me go back to that. Yeah did you feel not remembering contributed to either their trauma or your lack their lack of moving forward or your lack of moving forward and staying stuck? Or what was it? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

SPEAKER_06 5:27

No, I think I think for me it was should I fe should should the fact that I forgot this or that this was less important or that there was no you know, turn the page on this day in December 19, like you know, like I think for me there was a part where I had to accept that hey, like this is the natural part of the grieving process. Right? It's the normalization of the grief, the normalization of the loss. Um, it's not to say that there aren't important things that you know I've gone back and say, hey, I didn't even realize to the kids, I didn't even realize that yesterday was XYZ, and you know, we all meant to tell you this, or like want to tell you the story about your mom, or or even just like piecing together what life was because they were young, yeah, right? You know, so I may remember certain things, or you may remember certain things when the kids, you know, when when with with Milani, and you may be like, oh wait, oh yeah, well, this is like an organic memory for me. They were five or six, and they may not remember that. Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

Right, that's all versus now, as a teenager, things are coming in, it's their memories versus like yeah. So it's and it and it's that era of in their life and development and maturity that things are coming in a little bit more differently at five, and that sensory then is different than their sensory and how they take those in now as an adult. Wait, did that mess up your story? No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_06 7:10

I think those other thing too is like when you, you know, you're you know, the end of the day, end of your day, you're death scrolling through your phone, and you know, whether you got Apple, Google, Microsoft, whatever, some app is gonna be like, hey, this has happened 10 years ago. And you're like, oh shoot. Right? And and it's it's a reminder, you know, like that's great, but sometimes I'm like, I didn't need that right now.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

This is a theme that comes up for us, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_05 7:38

Technology in that it is, it's like it gives you the curse, right? I'm just like gosh, yes. You know, otherwise we'd uh you'd have to pull the box out and go through the old photos.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

That's true too. Because we don't have photo albums like we right, you know, that's that's our parents' generation makes the photo albums and whatever, and it appear in in our studio. I think the last photo minor bottles give it for me. The last photo albums that I had were like post-college, right?

SPEAKER_05 8:03

Yeah, I've dated myself, but yeah. You know, remember, you know, there are no more of the uh the negatives.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

Yeah. Going going to the pharmacy to pick up the exact your packet of bottles, right?

SPEAKER_06 8:18

So now it's it's it's it's the phone, your technology populates these memories from you, and sometimes you don't want them, and sometimes it's a good reminder because it's great because sometimes I'll be oh, let me forward this to the kids. Yeah. Right. And that's helpful.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

It is that something that you had kind of mentioned one time before about kind of discovering certain strong memories stay, and the others will fade, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_06 8:42

Well, it's it's the ones, and it's not to say like they're all memories, so when and this is the this is a struggle, I think, with loss. This is a struggle with this experience, is you feel this burden to hold on to every single but that's not one, it's not realistic, yeah. Right. So, like, sorry, take take that responsibility off of your off of your plate right now, because it's not realistic for you to hold on to every single memory. But I think it's also you will self-regulate the memory and and and help, and life will help to define for you the ones that are the most memorable, yeah, the most relevant, the most needed, versus which ones are like, oh yeah, remember that time we went to Baskin Robbins?

SPEAKER_04 9:27

Yeah, oh, that was fine.

SPEAKER_06 9:28

Yeah, like that's not that might not be that important, right? Right. Maybe there's a picture and an intimate look between, you know, the the the you know, Janice and it and and and the kids that was like, oh, I want to share this with them so I can see this love. Yeah, but that's an image, that's a memory that you share. But is it like I have to make sure that I bring up this every time? Like, right, you know, that's not I don't think that's gonna be what I think.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

It's more the these events happen. Yeah, that the time that was spent, even it was if it was getting ice cream or going to the mall or whatever it is, these events add up to this remembrance and the time spent with yeah, with Janice, the kids, and and and and some of them maybe the memories that they only know about because you weren't there for whatever reasons, because that's parenting. Yeah, you're so about you. Man, I think it was forgetting her her voice, which I was thinking about, because I had asked my mother, who's a widower many years, I've talked about lost the the cat the cowboy. Yeah, who he made good. Tiny who wasn't tiny. Tiny who was not tiny, the cowboy actually, but real cowboy, rode on horses, rodeos, domesticated wild mustangs, mended his and so much more. Um and so I think I don't know why I picture him like yeeho! Well, that might be part of it, but but you're watching too many westerns, I think is really what it is. But anyway, I I especially had to go back, particularly Jamal, when we were some of our interviews, our TV interviews and such, and they were asking for assets or something. And I remember looking through the videos, trying to because I they were well, what was she like? And do you have any recordings of her? And you know, that evolved later for us, uh, as the recordings and what have you. I found it. And then so I heard a few, one like at a birthday party, another she's narrating something, birthday, party, apart, and just remembering her tone, and I was like, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 11:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

And I and I didn't wanna forget that. Because I asked my mother the same day, have you forgotten Tiny's voice? Do you remember his voice? So I just remember asking her, and so that set me down the journey of trying to find that out.

SPEAKER_06 12:03

And and and I think it's a good, that's a good like because it's okay to it's you're gonna forget. Yeah, right. It's like not talking to a friend in a long time. You get on the phone with them, you're like, oh wow, like I forgot this is this is why we're friends. But I think there's a part where like, yeah, you you truly forget, and the excitement of like that memory, that person being triggered, um, I think it's okay. I think yes, it's it's a natural part, but these are people who were in our lives and and part of our lives for 20 years. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

Like why do we feel guilty about erasing them or or this gradual not erasing, but you know, this gradual forget of forgetting the details, but or giving that time and space for that memory, yeah, even though you have to move forward and create it and create no. That's right, exactly, exactly. And and and so I just remember taking that out, and I also just remember I think a lot of our my friends will remember when she used to laugh, it was that quiet laugh, yeah, and the tears would just come from laughing, and and and nothing was audible for a while. She was just laughing and oh my goodness, it was and that's just pure joy and enjoying it.

SPEAKER_06 13:27

And those are important because the last parts, your last experiences were not that. Yeah, like our last experiences with these women in our lives were not these moments where we got to see that deep laughter. That's right. Right. That in some cases, an infectious laughter that just seeing that level of joy would make you feel big, make me. I'm glad she has this level of joy. This is it's great to see that. Yeah, but in those last moments, those last weeks, like it was not that. So it's like to be able to have that still is a good, is, is, is, is a good because then it also helps you know that there's peace in this.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

And to get us through those last moments where we're by bedside, hospital you at home, when Janice at at home, taking care of her at home, right, where they couldn't talk. Yeah. At a certain point, they couldn't cry, they couldn't do anything. They were just staring up at the ceiling. Or in my case, that was eyes open, just staring up at the end.

SPEAKER_06 14:31

Yeah. I I think it's important too to go through that, like something like that. For me personally, right now, as I have moved forward, it makes me truly appreciate laughter and joy more. Yeah. Right. It truly makes me truly appreciate seeing my children laugh and my my my now wife Jordan. It makes me appreciate and pay attention to those things more because you realize how those things can be gone. That's right. Right. But you realize how like it's not just these day-to-day chores in life, it's these small moments of watching them laugh, or these small moments of receiving a message or a text message and something like that, whatever. Like you're like, ah, like this, this is so much more than just you know, life with a person. It's these very, very small, seemingly insignificant experiences.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

But then also going back to this joy of the kids and when they're laughing, is that true top grade joy and laughter? Because they have trauma below the surface and maybe at the surface too. Absolutely. And it's is this pure for them, or do they realize it's still with this memory of who is lost, and I and they have to understand the moment and move forward too. And that's what I I worry about with with the kids in that sense. So anyway, but also where I started to in my forgetting her is in a conversation with somebody. I was looking for something in my phone, and uh it it, you know, you can do the search, and it brought up Namani and brought her some of her text messages. And just I was just then started to think about what did that kind of routine, just that every day, look like. It could be just, you know, get dinner start of the. Yeah, exactly. Girls like, don't forget milk. That's right. Right. Here's the gross list, don't forget my lemon sorbag. You know what I mean? It was and it and that's exactly what it was. And so what I think is so interesting for me and and and for you as well as the people who are listening to us is that something so mundane and just normal routine of the day becomes uh it becomes this museum piece, this digital museum piece and something etched in digital and uh amber. Yeah. You know, in in a way. And I I I just didn't want to forget her, and I I I'm those text messages will stay right where they are.

SPEAKER_06 17:06

Yeah, yeah. And and as a part, I think there's this, you know, this this this history. It's almost like time capsule, yeah. A component of the time capsule. I don't know if you have, I still have you know, Janice's cell phone, right? Yeah, and yeah, and and there's a part of it where it's just like one day when the kids are ready, here you go. Right? Like, I'm not gonna go through it. I'm not gonna go and scrape all the angry text messages to see she sent me. Okay, all right, yeah, you care. Delete, uh delete, damn him. Right? Like you know, they jumped that all women have like an our nickname in their phone as uh say is this asshole Jamel or I wonder.

SPEAKER_05 17:55

Yeah, I wonder.

SPEAKER_06 17:55

I wonder, yeah, uh but but no, you know, I think there's a part where it's just like here, like here's this, here's in in, you know, is that invasion private privacy, you know, whatever. But I think there's a component to your point, like how what is history now, right? And and and how do you how do we preserve it naturally organically versus being okay letting some of it go and exist as it is?

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Yeah, but to your point also, uh this is this sense of who creates history, right? How it is written, how it is received, and how it is edited by that person who's in control of writing. Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 18:37

That is so is it exactly so is it is it my right to delete certain things?

SPEAKER_02 18:43

Or to get more of a sense and fullness of the relationship that you and Janice, your late wife, have so that your kids can go, oh, right.

SPEAKER_06 18:54

Because then it's shoot, everything isn't roses, right, and now they're you know, now they're age appropriate where I can say to them that you know, yeah, yes, we loved each other, and yes, we loved you guys, and yes, we were committed to being there for you. Yes, it wasn't always sweet, right? Right, and so many of us, I think we we we we can't, this is part of the history, and like big this element of like should I forget her and what what's appropriate to tell and what's appropriate to hold on to versus not. Like, there's a part of us like where we in in in our lives as the survivors, like we have this responsibility, and the challenge is we're all to present this person in the greatest light, yes, and honor them by doing that. You could like there's this stuff, and and and when we do that though, it's like which memories do I share? Right, because I want I want to think about them in the best light, but I also want everybody else to think about them in the best light all the time. It's her kids only have this this stuff, but there's a part of me that I have to be responsible and say, because their mother would have said to them, do this differently than I did.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

That's exactly what she said, right?

SPEAKER_06 20:08

I have things with my kids where I'm saying don't be like dead, do this differently, right? Like we also have to take the responsibility of also doing that, and this in in in these things we we we have to hold on to or these things that we're trying to prevent for getting, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:31

I think so, yeah. So so so yeah, so that's just how it kind of went for me, how it kind of showed up in those situations, yeah. And and you know, just really having to understand these memories are gonna arrive unexpectedly at at times, yeah, and and take a moment for that. And it it's as you said, it's not gonna be this perfect recall when when you think of these memories, and yeah, and and that's okay. And then there's going to be this idea of giving the history to the kids to then work out for themselves as well, and and that's okay. So what it really is is it's yeah, I think in those moments it it was that fear of losing connection.

SPEAKER_06 21:17

Yeah, and again, that's just like you're not afraid necessarily for getting all the details.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Yeah, I think yeah, yeah, I think we're just afraid of losing a part of whatever that relationship really was.

SPEAKER_06 21:29

I mean, and in and there's an element of it where it's like it's it's not just the relationship, it's actually we're part of ourselves. Yeah. Right? Like, think like if we think about that, like almost 20 years plus for you, right?

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Yeah, so 17 plus married, you're about 20.

SPEAKER_06 21:44

Yeah, and so if 15, right? For me, it's like it's a fear in forgetting that, a fear in saying, okay, well, like this is why it's like the battle of the the struggle of the grief process how many of us are just trying to forget completely what. you're you're forgetting your life.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

What do you do with this? You have to learn from that exists where you are at this point and move it over.

SPEAKER_06 22:08

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I mean where like where this shows up and I think it starts to show up in like these little moments. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

The the music we listen to that we share. Yeah. We talked about these photos, some of the people we knew throughout those names. Yes. You know, through the joint history that you have Majanis, your late wife, I abundalani, my late wife. And and and a lot of these dates that kind of mark time. Yeah. So yeah. So where it really shows up again is it's starting to forget this date. And maybe that's okay. Or a story or or some detail related to exactly what's going on. And when people ask, well what was going on? Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

I don't I don't remember as much.

SPEAKER_06 22:59

And and that it's okay. Right. It's okay to her forget something. Yeah. That's part of the conversation. Right. That's part of the experience and part of the discussion with the kids as they explore and they you know particularly when you have children or family and you want to continue exploring it's gr it's it's okay to be like you know what and go through that deep thought and extract the most important things out of that moment or or or whatever. I think another you know part is like you know you know we talked about like throwing away things like you know the physical things that our late wives had you know the the the the huge closets all the shoes right the irreplaceable we get open businesses with the clothes our late wives had man.

SPEAKER_02 23:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 23:50

But then it's also it's it's everything else it's it's all these other things that they had that that that you have. Yeah right that we still have that are that are part of that time capsule.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

Yeah for sure stuff I I think one thing you had brought up in a previous episode it's probab a theme for both of us is moving homes. Yeah moving homes the way you had left your Austin home and then came all the way across the country hacking up those memories and boxes or whatever and editing out even in that well it like you're going through and one you just like got you know what's what's uh you know Erica Badu Erica Badu says pack light oh right like she that's true right and and you know not Tyrone but you know like you gotta like you gotta get through stuff and it's a part you you have to go through the process of like letting go of certain things.

SPEAKER_06 24:45

And it's almost I remember going through like in that process of like the memories I remember going through boxes and bins for the kids or bins packing and and I'm I'll call the kids and I'm like hey do you want this your mind used this for this and this was you you recall in this memory yeah or on her behalf and and they're looking at you like no I don't want it and you're like what this is important what do you mean you don't I'm like all right well you don't want to put this in your bin I'll put it in this for you this is like you've got the bin that they want and a bin that they're gonna want 10 years from now that they don't care about today.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

You want this 90s RB CD collection your mom loves Joe to see oh my gosh these are not my children.

SPEAKER_06 25:30

Meanwhile they look at Joe not meanwhile they don't they don't want anything to do with Joe D and because they're looking at TikTok videos of Joe C today. Exactly like oh that's who mom liked yeah I don't know about that so but something you just to kind of fish out where this shows up and and for all of you all to think up about it's creating new memories without her yeah that's that's where it's gonna show up yeah yeah yeah yeah so what surprised me though man was that the number of memories that that kind of faded I think yeah I mean I I think that and then it's like the for me I I that's definitely I think the ones that became stronger were kind of surprising for me. That was the one where I thought about and I'm not even talking about stuff that was like during her battle it's like prior to her battle the memories that are like stuck in my head about who she was how she was and why she was the way she was you know and the way she was and things that I'm like I want to make sure I let the kids remember. Yeah oh right on to this let me hold on to this one and and yeah that I think that was the one those are those stronger ones are the the ones that I want to say self-selected the ones that my brain has decided you're gonna remember that but that's that that's the hard part yeah strange ones. Yeah I mean I think it's like some just seem to come become clearer with time while others fade.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

Some of the emotional memories are those are the ones that that that often remain the strong something that just left you maybe not that conversation but the result of that time with that person. Yeah have you ever been I know I've there's moments where I'm talking to the kids and like they have a memory and I'm like you've been right like that that was more that was important to them yeah yeah that one is those are the interesting I remember even after uh even Janice passed uh Jackie my oldest uh she remembers spilling something on spilling curry on something and like she felt guilty because she's still in curry and like Janice got upset and I was like I don't think mom was that upset about the curry like he could let this one go and I was just like I felt so bad and I'm like yeah I know but like that's not one to hold on to but hey for whatever that that's it's like yeah they're holding on and then for her it was like in that moment her holding on to a moment the one of the very very rare moments that there was disappointment right on Mars right the stage of their maturity just set in time but they may laugh at that now if you bring that back up exactly exactly yeah so yeah yeah yeah and and I think what surprised me is that memory isn't the same as connection you know that that doesn't mean it was any looser or not as solid that connection to Nalani and this is something for you all to think about too it's just that the memory is it yeah is it this it's just not the same the memory doesn't have to equal that connection yeah uh so I I think don't don't kill yourself.

SPEAKER_06 28:50

Oh for that yeah but it it did kind of surprise me as as it goes on goes along it may surprise you all as well yeah I think another thing this one um when you have children I think they go through this when they're when they're young um I think when they're young and when they don't have this full catalog of memories that you have the the surprising piece to me is the intensity of love without history yeah without without the full catalog right right like without that full recall yeah without that recall like and it it just to me it like it it highlights it puts a spotlight on what love is you know like it like love I've realized through this is a coded experience right you know you you look at it through loss you look at it through parents and family members going through and you know having family you know seeing your family members with with memory issues like love is coded and I think that's something where you carry this burden of you know or this this responsibility of all cataloging all the memories and this guilt of letting go of something or forgetting something and you're like it doesn't mean you love this person any less and it doesn't mean that you know they say all things things fade with time love doesn't fade with time right like love is going to still be there and you're I think that's something that's like surprised me that even without the full catalogue of love the full catalogue of of experiences the full catalog of memory that you know that in particular the kids have that the intensity of their love is still as strong as it was yeah ten years ago nine years ago yeah and even for me like although I've moved forward like the the the love that I had for my wife then my late wife then it still exists today right like I didn't stop and time hasn't said Jamal you right time hasn't said it's been nine years you've moved forward stop caring about her yeah like that doesn't happen right you can place her in time in a period of life in your timeline but it doesn't mean that okay not yeah yeah you that all that feeling love all that hope that you had all that all those things those emotions like they're they're dead no they're not right they've evolved right and I think that's something that'll like learn through this experience really personal. The reason you all came together is to create and and enhance the idea of love and so that always is set in time that yeah that can't change yeah and and that's not going to affect you moving forward right right yeah yeah um I think that brings up you know where I struggled for me personally it was like this feeling that I have to be I keep using the like the the catalog and I don't know why I keep thinking of like the librarian old school librarian pulling out the and you you know their finger and through the card yeah yeah card file um you know I'm pretty sure our listeners know that um but like that you you feel this responsibility to have this organized yeah structure of recall and this organized process for all of the memories and all like the reality is it's not only on you right and I think that like that's the the that's been the challenge that was the challenge for me early on and sometimes it still is like the thing that I have to like the adrian yeah you know you it's okay you can't be the keeper of it all the the house of records yeah uh essentially exactly and but you have that sense of maybe in this loss if I don't remember who who will right right yeah yeah where where I think I struggle with this and where this kind of got hard for me is at some point and this is for all of you as well is that you have to this pressure to think that you have to remember it all or else it will be flat yeah the fear of losing these important dates and details particularly for the children as as we just mentioned. Yeah yeah I know for me like I you know uh sometimes I have confidence yeah sometimes you know you collect things you hold on to things and you know I I think our wives are always at least you know and I my wife but I also have you know other friends who they're wise you have so many boxes why you why you still need to keep the box for the TV that you bought five years ago just in case I might have to return it. Like that warranty is long up but I still have the box. Exactly but I think it's like this responsibility to hold on to all the the keeps like struggling like I struggle to know what to let go when what to throw away when what to what's a memory that's worth you know what's a thing that's worth holding on to versus what's not um yeah I literally have a box filled with like and this is again this is like because it was life with you know Janice and the family in particular prior to cell phones that yeah yeah that that this is you know V's not be you know video recording or whatever I don't even know what the camera video camera your tapes in a box that I have to figure out to get converted at some point like the other day I was talking about like at one point like we we went skydiving so I have this is 20 plus years ago okay um but I have a a a a cassette a VCR tape right of of Janice skydiving. And I'm like we were talking about this the other day and I'm like oh we gotta show this to you well I don't have a VCR that's wrapping you right so like you're gonna have to wait till I send that in the box to have it shit box and convert like you know but those are the things that it's just like is it that important it's a five minute video. But yeah the the kids would want to see their mom that way so it's my it's on me to do that. But full of life yeah full of life yeah how much do they remember that you know but yeah as far as keepsake and such if you all were to turn around and see this attic I got plenty of I think why this is the perfect set because it's the reminder of for us you're like like being here is a reminder of like the complexity of lostity of like the that process and how it it's not like you know spend five years. Dave get rid of these boxes right like it's not that simple.

SPEAKER_02 35:52

Because I'm the one who has to decide what is to be kept what memories and to always have at the ready or to display or to box whatever it is yeah that's that's that pressure on me of boxes have moved from place to place and now we have all the parents sending us the stuff and my place has become sorry exactly to a an extent for all of them you know the boxes just show up my house oh no baby I mean we need you to to to hold on to the family history you're the archivist yes come this jump to you you just you just want to say so anyway we're just a struggle it's just yeah balancing this this memory of of how do I move forward what hold on to and and and and what stays yeah and so I can move forward and then the perception of what everybody thinks then there's the piece of it where everybody else is like dad why is you still got so much stuff yeah why is her all her stuff up here are you have you moved are you okay like no I'm a I'm a goddamn inventorist like I'm as it's a supply chain she didn't business up here right like I kind of there's a reason there's a process this box moves closer and closer to the stairs every year yeah or every six months one box moved closer to the stairs because okay now eventually I bring the kids up okay now it's time right and there's no accountable principle up in here last in first out everything is first in first in that is the masking tape with the marker like it's it's just all they all came at the same time nothing before anything else up in here you know to get to to cut that off no no I mean I think in in and then it's like the the the like I said it's the internal pressure you feel to manage this process the external pressure you feel of how you're managing the process and then you trying to figure out what's not just right for you what's right for the kids and in some cases the whole family because there's there's there's boxes in here that have the that there's a family member that doesn't live in this house.

SPEAKER_06 38:02

That's right that that might be helpful for them.

SPEAKER_02 38:05

Yeah right and you own that yeah right so yeah it's it's something to use yeah it's accepting the memory pressure yeah yeah the lengths of memory yeah or or or or just this idea of uh of forgetting as if it's a failure it you you can't treat it that way it's not it's not a it's not a failure yeah so I think what can make this worse is as we said believing every detail has to be preserved yeah or trying to force it yeah yeah like I I found I figured this out early principally with the kids of like forcing the memory and you're like oh yeah I wanted to tell you this and you are uh I I was uncomfortable like how do I put this it seemed like they're playing peacefully right now Listen uh turn out the cartoons so I yeah since you're watching cartoons let's watch this video a mom like like you know and it's like you you you force it and they're looking at you like hey why are you doing this now?

SPEAKER_06 39:13

Yeah maybe I need this right now or like zero context. You know I think that's that's the hard part of like sourcing it.

SPEAKER_02 39:20

Yeah but it and what can make all of this worse is just avoiding the conversations about her. Yeah kind of know when it's appropriate as as you're saying I mean we're having fun with the idea of wedding the children because it's on our minds we want to have that conversation. But I think also with other people on our our universe those people are core friends right that yeah it you that can make it worse if you're avoiding the conversation yeah and I think that that part too is it's okay to do the you know like you know isolating from the family stories like I said it's okay to have those conversations with family and they bring up something and knowing that for them it's part of their grief process for you bringing it up to them it's helpful for this because you all have these collective memories and I think avoiding that will definitely make the process more difficult. And also what makes it worse and we kind of really talked about it already is equating this memory with love as if it's yeah cool they're not symbolic somebody Yeah exactly is it that that that can make it worse.

SPEAKER_06 40:30

Yeah. Yeah I mean there's there's you know you there you can't there's no perfect process in this and don't feel like you have to be the perfect narrator of of your late spouse's wife. It's a collective process like I said there's things that the kids remember that I'm like wait oh wow like you remember that I might not even remember that or giving the responsibility to other family members who also may be able to bring context or history to whom they were because guess what they were family before you were that's not even in the picture right and I think that that is gonna be an important process. I I think you're absolutely right yeah and what helps right sharing these stories sharing them as regularly as they are appropriate in those circumstances because I think a lot of times probably end up laughing more than we do crying yeah I mean exactly right honestly exactly yeah you know like I said you know talking with the kids the family being okay writing stuff I think especially now I feel like everything we do is just relegated to a laptop or phone and like we're always you know I think sometimes taking a moment to just be write the thought down write the the memory down if it's if it's important to you to hold on to yeah and I think technology can work both ways in that sense it can remind you of those memories at times when we don't want some of those to come but it selected those memories for you which you did not right and that that's up to you.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

Yeah but as you said you can write those things and that's where technology also comes in handy or where it does come in handy is use your note session or whatever to write in that memory. Yeah so it's locked in.

SPEAKER_06 42:22

Yeah yeah um I think the other like understand the connection is independent when we call yeah right like again this goes with the love like you didn't you don't stop having love for this person or stop caring about their memories and the experiences just because you begin forgetting the details or forgetting certain things there it's it's don't give you already probably carried enough guilt in this process you don't need the guilt yeah of oh I feel bad because I forgot this this day like you're gonna forget you're gonna your brain only has so much space that it can retain in the front end your front yeah versus like all the stuff that is is more about recall.

SPEAKER_02 43:04

Yeah yeah let those memories evolve man that's what's gonna happen and and if you're listening to us now and you're worried about forgetting yeah just listen like understand that the fear is rooted in love.

SPEAKER_06 43:20

Like that's where it's coming from it's it's it's not failure. Yeah it's not failure that's it and then you know you know I think you know what if you are forgetting right does it mean it you know doesn't mean that you're losing a connection doesn't mean that you're losing love for this person doesn't mean you don't care about what they were who they are to you that that has nothing to do with any of anything.

SPEAKER_02 43:43

It just could mean is the relationship is changing quirk or your change or your change which is okay as well yeah so I think some things to kinda take away from this you gotta tell the stories.

SPEAKER_06 43:56

Yeah be okay telling the stories talk about it um If the kids ask questions, if the family members call and they want to talk about it, just be okay with that. If if if it's something that just popped up top of mind for you and you you don't have anybody to talk to or don't want to talk, write it down. Yeah. Right? That's fine. Right? Write it down in a space where you can bring it back up or minimum where somebody may find it in the future so they can know where you were and what you were doing.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

Yeah, I think so. I think so. Just not treating imperfect memories as as disloyalty. Yeah. Uh that that that's not what this is. Right. You know, it's you're not disloyal to the memory and what the reason you came together.

SPEAKER_06 44:43

Yeah. Um and then, you know, we it's the kids, ask the kids. Like the kids are a part of this process and they own some of this. Give them a little bit of that responsibility to bring their their parent forward. Right, that's an important part of this journey. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:04

And you don't have to force it because it's gonna come. Yeah, because that is indicative of the relationship that that you have. Um and and and just how they're evolving and moving forward.

SPEAKER_06 45:13

Yeah, yeah. Uh that's it. I mean, I think if you take anything from this, this is a lot to carry for one person.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

Yeah, I mean, uh love is it's it's a big memory and it's it's complicated. And love is certainly bigger than just uh the that collection of of memories.

SPEAKER_06 45:33

Yeah, and it doesn't, like we said, it uh going through the process uh remembering recall, it doesn't mean that you uh aren't letting go. It doesn't mean that you're not going through a healthy grieving process even as much as you remember. And forgetting the details does not mean that you care less or that you know you're this person and what you went through is not important to you. Like none of those things are uh correlated, right? You know, the fact that you're dealing with this, it's okay. The guilt, as we say, is always okay. Don't let it hold you down, don't let it beat you up though.

SPEAKER_02 46:08

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, definitely. We really appreciate you joining us again on getting back up, finding life after death podcasts. Hey, keep sending those comments to us. Yeah, we love it, yeah, and we we we want to definitely hear those comments and just build out that episode again with all those comments. Really enjoy doing that. Hit us on all our socials, drums thumbs up down, five stars, yeah, subscribe everywhere and get the word out. Let other folks know this community shared this. Yeah, you shared it. The nurturing the nurturing space so that you all can come and we can come together. So appreciate your time.

SPEAKER_06 46:47

Thanks for joining us. Thank you for joining us on Getting Back Up, finding life after death. If something in today's episode spoke to you, pass it on because somebody out there needs to hear this.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

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SPEAKER_03 47:12

And be sure to subscribe to us on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcast. And remember, getting knocked down is part of life. But getting back up is how we live. We'll see y'all next time.