44: Grieving a Future After Loss

Episode 44: Grieving a Future After Loss

Grief isn't only about losing the person you loved. Sometimes it's about losing the future you spent years imagining together.

In this episode, Jamal and David explore one of the least talked about dimensions of grief: mourning the life that never got the chance to happen. Retirement together. Watching your children become adults. College acceptance letters. Weddings. Grandchildren. Growing old side by side. They reflect on how each new milestone can quietly remind you that someone who was supposed to be there is missing.

Together, they discuss why grieving unrealized dreams is every bit as real as grieving memories, how comparison can keep you trapped in the life you thought you were supposed to have, and why allowing yourself to dream again isn't replacing your spouse—it's honoring the life that still remains. Because healing doesn't ask you to forget the future you lost. It simply invites you to believe another meaningful future is still possible.

Getting Back Up: Finding Life After Death is a podcast that explores the raw, unfiltered reality of surviving profound personal loss—and finding a way forward.  The idea for the podcast was born after David and Jamal met in 2023. Both widowers, who had lost their wives to cancer, quickly found a deep connection through multiple conversations about pain, perseverance, and parenthood. They realized that while men often bond over music, sports, or TV, they rarely speak candidly about loss or emotional recovery. Getting Back Up was created to change that narrative—blending the everyday with the existential in a format that’s as relatable as it is real. 

Getting knocked down is part of life. Getting back up is how we live. 

Hosts: David McClain & Jamal Jones
Executive Director: Marlon Jackson 
Editing: Marlon Jackson
Music: 
Grenada, "Treasure" 
McDonald, Otis, "Phife for Life", otismusic.com

Thank you for listening! Follow us on Instagram/TikTok @getbackuppodcast and on X @GBUpodcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Welcome to Getting Back Up with grief, meet, growth. Two men, two fathers, and one shared journey of rebuilding.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

We're talking about life after cancer, love, loss, and everything no one tells you. I'm David McLean. And I'm Jamal Jones. And we welcome you to Getting Back Up, Finding Life After Death. Hey, man, I caught myself the other day just thinking about something that actually will never happen.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

What's that? What you what you you got for me?

SPEAKER_02 0:46

What's that sense of retirement and what that looks like?

SPEAKER_00 0:49

I'm listening, I'm I'm starting to count. I mean, at least pay attention to how far it is. I always say, man, it's the touchdown. One good Hail Mary. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

I mean, we're getting close to that age, but I think it's more about this planning of retirement that was supposed to be with her, my late wife.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That that hits differently. Yeah. That hits differently.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

Yeah. I just I think you always start to think about what that eventuality would have been, what what that actually would have looked like. And assume that she was supposed to be there to see all this out and all these plans that are happening.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Yeah, that's that's uh it's that's a different type of grief. Yeah. Um that that's a different, and I I know I've I've been there for sure, and I'm sure our listeners have been there in in in different ways too, but that's a different one.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

Yeah, and and that's what we want to focus on today is that talking about something that widowers definitely experience, but they really don't talk about this and name it. Rarely, rarely name what what this is.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Yeah, it's it's we're talking about grieving the future, right? Like dreams that you had and and these unanswered parts or these unwritten parts of your your your previous journey that you thought that your mind built. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Not not just losing your spouse now.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we talk about often you know losing a life you were trying to build together, like you already had this identity that was tied together. Now you're losing it's unfinished business, right? Like it's this unfinished business that you didn't get to follow through on, and you had built it in your your mind for so long that this is this is gonna be the story.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

Yeah, I mean this this is real grieving, this grieving of the future. This this is a real sense and form of grief. There's just there's just no question about that.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Yeah, and and and I think you know, and in reality, it's oh it's okay to build that future, it's okay to to hold on to that and realize that you had this deep connection with somebody, with this person, and you had these these dreams, yeah. And now you're in this place where you're designing and beginning this future without this person. You're rewriting a book, or you're having her edit a story real time that you had written and were ready to publish, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:19

Yeah, and now they're added chapters and rewrites and all of that at this point. So, I mean, let's kind of get into it for you, as as far as your stories.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Yeah, I mean, I think you know, I think the reality, right, is for me, I didn't realize how long like I I think you don't realize how long the grief lasts, or how long these m memories pop up, or how how how these things, these elements of what you thought life was gonna be like presents itself and it presents itself in a different way. I think that that's the thing that that that I've been surprised for.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Yeah, because it's that time doesn't wait for these new milestones. They're they're still gonna keep coming, whether you're at this new point and and embracing this moving forward.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Yeah, and and and like the milestones in of them s in and of themselves remind you. Yeah, right. And and sometimes they're sometimes the the where you thought or what you're writing now may be better or different. Different. Right, I won't say maybe maybe better is not the right way, maybe different in and not a bad way than you foresaw it, right? Than you originally had planned it.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

But but she was supposed to be here.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

But someone else, but yeah, you thought there was somebody else that was supposed to be here. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. And I think that that's the that's where the the challenge is. I think that's where the struggle happens in many cases.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

So so get into what the marriage was supposed to be for you when Janice was still around. Yeah at that point, when we're thinking of this future, this retirement that we're talking about, absent the person with whom you're supposed to retire. And of course, you had some other challenges to that marriage. Again, as you said about your marriage, which I think is very important for us to say here, is if the cancer hadn't killed Janice, yeah, like the marriage would have the stress of the marriage might kill her and me, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Yeah, right, exactly. Right. And and I think that's it's important. Like, so I always try to preface it with like everybody, we all go through this, we all go through marriage. Anybody who's married, you go through the ups and downs, and and some of them last through, and sometimes you're able to weather through them, and sometimes you're you're not. And I think where I was, where we were, where Janice and I were when she got diagnosed, we were both in a place where we were really, really at the point where like this is not working, right? We we we we can't get past our things, we're we're not willing to change certain things, and and that was that was the reality of our situation. So for me, like at that point, I had already said started looking at the end of my book, right? Well, not the end, but I already started looking at like man, I have to rewrite this chapter, these chapters that I thought were gonna be one way. Yeah, that that was something that was for me not necessarily about, oh, well, I'm not gonna retire with this person, or I'm not going to have a vacation home with this person, or or all, you know, whatever. It was more about learning, okay. Well, I'm gonna be co-parenting with this person. I'm gonna be co-parenting with with Janice if if and when when we get divorced. Yeah. Right. Like that was what my beginning path was. That's how I saw it. When she got diagnosed, and before she passed, before we got to the point where we realized it was sh she likely wouldn't wouldn't survive it, it was it was a different re realization, right? And I had started be thinking about, well, wait, man, we have this marriage we were trying to we were thinking about ending. It it's gonna end in a different way, but well man, we haven't resolved some of these things that we had beef about, like all these tensions, like these things we you know, I'm not gonna get are we gonna get closure in these things? Are we gonna get to this point where like what? Do you have any just just trust issues or things that we, you know, we couldn't get on the same page about finances, like, but but was it trust to move forward as co-parenting or maybe even trust that we would be there through to support the kids? Okay. Trust that if we're not together in a marriage, that doesn't mean that we won't be there to support each other through the thick and thin. We're still we still loved each other, we just didn't love each other together together anymore. Right. And we still had children that we believed that we were wanted to support. So it's like, are we gonna be there and and and is this the new design? Then there was a part of me that honestly was like, before I when when we were battling and before she she passed when when I thought she would survive it, I was like, wait, maybe we maybe we do rewrite this ending, maybe we can survive this, and maybe the marriage can survive this, and maybe we get past this, and maybe cancer saves our marriage, right? But there's still those fundamental challenges. But those, yeah, those still those still things still exist and you still figure, like, hey, we've done this, we can tackle every any mountain. Uh-huh. But I think when you think about the rewrite, when you think about what you saw as the ending or what you imagine is the future, there's there's still a lot of questions, right? Even for me, there were a lot of a questions as to what this future will look like with this person. And I think when when when she passed, there were one, many unanswered questions around would the marriage s have survived? What would we have looked like in divorce? What does my life look like now that everything's been turned on its side? Like, are all the plans that we had together or that I had individually and I contemplated divorce when we talked about divorce? Like all of these are like what happens now? Right. But then you talk about the milestones with the kids graduating middle school, high school, like all of these different things. Right. And it just presents itself each time that it's like, well, whether we were married or not, she should be here for this.

unknown 9:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Whether whether we were married or not, we would have all thrown this party together. Right. Yes. Right. Whether we were married or not, and and and I talked even now with my, you know, now I'm I'm remarried. I think my wife now, Jordan, and Janice would have gotten along. Right? Because I knew who I knew how Janice was. I saw how she was with my stepson and how she embraced his siblings from his his previous his his his you know from his his father's uh relationship. So so Janice's first husband, right? Yeah, so I saw how she was and she always presents, she always, it was about the children, right? And it was like we're here together in the community to support these children. And as long as she saw that and felt that from Jordan, she'd be like, yo, let's let's let's pray on this party together, right? So there's things that now like that that I think about like, wow, like But there still would have been a lot of work to do.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

Oh, oh, hell of a lot of work, yeah. No shortage of work. We both mutually have to decide. Right. We are given another lease on the life of our marriage. Right. And a lease on your life too. Right. What are we going to do to make the best of this time that we have left? Because it's not promised.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Right, right. So so in many ways, right, like with her passing, yeah, all of these different things have changed. All of these different pages that that were that we had written, that we had imagined as a as a couple, that we had written and as imagined as we contemplated divorce. Yeah. Right. And then like all of it changes. Right. Right? Like all of it changes, and all of it you get to each milestone, and you're always saying, Oh man. How what would it have been like, well, she would have been here. And if she was here, this if Janice was here, like this other element would have been here, or we would have done this as well.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Or you're always or proving in that you are better apart. But each milestone, as you come together and co-parent, you're getting better and better and better at showing and modeling for your children, oh yeah, you you can be divorced. Yeah. And it still works. Yeah. And the kids know that they're in love. Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

You see these stereotypes are present. Yeah, you see these stereotypical shows where people are divorced and it's just like, ah, they hate each other. That's not reality. Like, yes, that happens. Sure. But in in many situations, two parents who love each other, yeah, and love their children and their family that they've built, extended, and also have also say, hey, we're like, we've got to be civil and we just grew apart for different reasons or just marriage. And I think that's something that like it gets contemplated differently when you think about like to when you wake up and you have the milestone or the moment and you're like, man, I what would retirement look like? Or for me, when I say that, well, like, what would retirement look like? It'd be me saying, Hey, uh Janice, me and Jordan are going here. You make sure the kids, like, you know, Zia, Jackie, whoever has this thing coming up or whatever. Like, I think they wanted one of us to be there. Yeah. Well, I don't know, but that's what it is. That's what it would be. Right. Right. And and and it would be different if it, if, if, if we were, if we had survived, if we'd figured out how to work through our differences. Yeah. Right. The the dream and the vision may be different. And I think that's the part where either way you wake up, either way you have those moments, and you're like, whoa, like this is not the story I pred I I thought we were writing.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Right. Right. So I don't know. But I mean, what's your I mean, I know your your your perspective is totally different than mine. So I like what's I know you you had the aha moment the other day when you had the that retirement uh glimpse of retirement, and now it looks different.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

Yeah, I mean, it it's not only the collection of milestones that all uh we talk about all the time, as far as Miela driving, that's my oldest. Yeah. And the different concerts that happened that Nalani would have enjoyed, my late wife would have enjoyed seeing my our our oldest playing trumpet and moving up to symphonic band, or those kinds of things. And for for Kara, my youngest, getting into dance and and really enjoying that and having a good time with that. And where we live, they don't play as far as as the arts. Yeah. And so there is a real focus and determination on that. But I think it and and also they want to win and they want these children as it relates to competitions and whatever, but they want the children to grow in that, not only the successes, but also the challenges and losses that they have in competition and what have you. So with the performing arts and where we are, they don't play. They know the particular the structure, they know this is going to help them in other aspects of their lives, whether they become dancers, uh musicians, what whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Yeah, it's serious about it.

SPEAKER_02 15:07

They whatever career and whatever place they're going to go, they're going to be better for it because if they were in this program, okay, too much of a plug on arts out on performing arts, but I mean it's really important. It is. It really is. But this is what I was gonna say about the retirement piece, which is there you and I talk about chapter two. We're at that point. We're starting to think about hey, what is what does this next number of years look like? And how do I start doing mission-based uh activities, career that makes sense for us that gives me the fulfillment. Yeah, sure. Working in the corporate life, there's there's a lot that it brings you. But the deeper interpersonal connection and seeing what you're doing for other people, that's something else. So this idea of retirement with Nalani, the both thinking about what does chapter two look like. Right. What does do we start to look at investing in another place that we can go to seasonally? Those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_03 16:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

And just the vacations that we won't take as the girls finish middle school, high school, whatever that is, that we go, the those family vacations that we won't have anymore in retire in our retirement where we're pulling back and spending more time with them because we don't we won't have them much longer in that household.

SPEAKER_03 16:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

So so so that's where it really caught me as related to retirement. Not not not the career so much as it is sharing life.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Life, yeah. Yes. Yeah, the life, the life. How do you how do you get to the phase the last few chapters where you're coexisting every day and your your world is finishing this world and showing getting your children to this next yeah, your adult children to this next level of their own lives. Yeah. Right. And grandkids, hopefully, and all that stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:17

And and to the degree we can control it, making sure our health is in touch. Exactly. Yeah. Because that's where you and I are having to think about that because we have older parents, as many of you do. Oh, bad knees. And bad knees. Right. I mean, these things happen. And to us they do, and we're, oh man. So it's how do we work? Nalani and I think about our health as we go forward, because the challenges are gonna come.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

Right. How's it feel now? Like in that, like in that moment where you were like, wait, I've I've gotta rewrite this. This yeah, this this story is now gonna be different. Yeah. Like, how did like like what was that? How did that feel?

SPEAKER_02 18:00

I I it's it it hurts at first because you did not plan to be where you are today. I did not plan this would happen. And I would have to think about, all right, well, where else am I gonna find joy and happiness? Yeah, I mean, certainly the progression of my kids, that's very fulfilling. Yeah, yeah. But what about me? I mean, I had these plans, and now I have to think about it does that involve somebody else now? Right. So it is real time for me right now. Yeah. And I'm I'm in a relationship now, and you see so much promise for what it can be. And it's also, I think about my mom, who I talk about all the time. And because she's a model of what it looks like growing older, right? What not woe is me, but I'm curious about the rest of the world and the rest of the time I have. Let me go do this and that. Right. That's what my mother does. Yeah. So she's a good example for me in that way. So I also think about how independent her life and and also hers coexisted with the person with whom she had a relationship after Tiny Gooden.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Yeah, you know, yeah, Tiny Mike, who he wasn't the cowboy.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Yeah, yeah. And and she met another man and they brought their lives together, and then they were as good together as they were apart. Right. Until he passed. Right. So, you know, so that's rewriting, just like you said. Yeah. Now I am going into this rewrite.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

How's it? I mean, I think that's the part where you're like, I I think there the there's a part where you do this, you go through that rewrite, that phase, yeah, and you're resisting rewriting. Right? So much of the story, so much of what you started writing with you know, your late wife, with our late wives, right, was like, oh, well, like so much of you functions almost like, well, it has to be this way.

SPEAKER_02 20:01

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

But it doesn't. Right. And to your point, I think you bring up a good point of like I I get to I'm I'm now having to rethink that. That's right. One, because your identity is now your singular identity, and yes, you're dating. And like for me, it's like my identity went from or my identity went from Jamal married to to to Janice to single father to the widowed. Widowed and widowed and impact that to single father figuring out to dating, married, and now working. Through that whole process, right, working through all of these different things. Yeah. But then now getting to but also getting to a point where, oh wait, what I thought was gonna be the end in these these chapters of what life was gonna be like, I'm having to rewrite it now. And some of this is uncomfortable, right? Some of this is different than I thought it was gonna be. And I would say it's again, it's not bad, it's not good, it's uncomfortable. Right? And that's the part that I think is like that we have to sit on sometimes. That it's like it's not a bad thing. Like, don't feel bad feeling uncomfortable, right? It should be uncomfortable. You're rewriting a part of your life that you had that's right, for you know, forecasted, so to speak. That's right. Right. And and I think that's important.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

You had the cast of characters, you had the story essentially written. The the the structure was there, but then it changed. It changed. Yeah, yeah. And it's with new cast of characters, new situations that arise because of these new cast mixes. Exactly. Exactly. So which we will get deep into on another.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

Oh, yeah, and listen, and there, and then listen, and then you know, and when you have children, guess what? They're writing their own story, and you and you have to adjust to that.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

So yeah, so what this really is, bad, it it's grieving unfinished chapters, and some that you were uncomfortable to know you're gonna.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

It's not maybe these aren't memorable. You didn't create them yet.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Yeah, there are possibilities.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

There were possibilities. There was something that you thought, you believed, you created this vision. We all did. We created this vision in our minds. Yeah. Sometimes, sometimes collectively with our partners, of what life would look like in the future. Yeah. Right. And I think that's the that's the hard part. Yeah. And then, you know, like at the end of the day, it's a it's a script you assumed was gonna that you were gonna play out.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Right? Uh uh it was a script, a play, a show, or a book, but like your mind is essentially just trying to fill in the blanks through this period. Yeah. And guess what? It's blank. It's white paper for you to rewrite. That's the reason it's white. That's the reason it it's blank. It's your your your your mind is giving you space to rewrite the future.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

Yeah, no, no question about it. So so this is where it shows up.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

It it it shows up in these moments you you just don't expect. You're you're thinking about tomorrow instead of yesterday.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Yeah, you're like you're listening you're sitting on the milestones and the what-ifs. What what happens with when my daughter gets married? What's the wedding gonna look like? Guess what? That's changed.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

Yeah, and again, about the retirement conversation where it shows up that well, when do we do that? When does all this kind of click in where we're living easy life? I don't know what that actually means.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Yeah, yeah, people say it. Exactly. Or like travel plans. I know if it is I always laugh if it was, you know, Janice used to always say, Oh, I want to retire on a beach running uh a little tiki bar. Yeah. And I used to be like, Oh, that sounds nice for you. I don't want to sit here, let's live on a beach with a tiki bar, right? But like I and at the time I didn't know what it was. Now I'm having a get you know, like having these conversations again. Like it's it's a different vision, you know, that you plan. So yeah, yeah. Then empty nest. I mean kids are gone. You can't foresee that for a little while. I know that. Yeah, I got I press reset, man. I got a I got a five-year-old. Yeah, so you're coming to be I mean, these folks we're talking to, I'm sure that what does that look like now? Yeah, you do that. Some of it, and some of them are becoming empty nesters. Some of you are becoming empty nesters, and you're having to figure this out, a life that you thought was gonna be one way, and you've got your children living their own lives. And listen, it was hard enough for me when my when my my byla, my oldest Jackie, left the house and she's off, she's 21 now, and I'm like missing, you know, missing her, wondering what she's doing on a day-to-day basis. But you know, I I can only imagine.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

But can you imagine weddings? That that's got to be hard where it shows up. Yeah. Because that dance and song. Yeah. And I mean, I I cry at chorus concerts of my daughter. You you know, you know what I'm saying? Yes. I hold it in. I've seen it. I've seen it. Yeah. It's tough. You know, it is like my grandmother in that way.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

No, listen, we all are. We all are, we all present it differently, right? You know, it and and and I think those are the moments like when you start thinking about we've we've talked about the the holiday traditions, and the wedding is gonna be, you know, are you wearing I I've still got Janice's wedding dress in our house because I don't know if that's gonna be something one of the girls want to wear. Maybe they won't, maybe they will, styles change, who knows? But it's like, you know, from a those are things that come up and they present themselves. That's right. That's right. Because somewhere, somewhere along the line, there was a discussion. Don't get rid of the dress because one of the kids might, one of the girls might want to.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

And you just probably knew that. Without someone having to prompt you, you probably just knew that as you were going through moving from Austin out here, like, uh someone wrote that in in the manuscript.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

Yeah. Right. And you know, so I think those are those are gonna be things, you know, friends, they're aging together, financial planning, yeah. Right, is is is is one thing that always comes up when you talk about the future, and you know, I was one page, you know, Janice and I could never get on the same page about, so yeah, it's a little bit easier. A lot of couples can't get on the same. Yeah, like a lot of couples, but like that's again, like those are things that you that that that where all of this stuff shows up.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Yeah, and we've talked about this before, but bear's repeating here are the holiday traditions and how that is different, and then that becomes a new added memory, and that's fine, that's moving forward.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What surprised you? Like, what are you know, I I I talked about kind of earlier for me, like it was just the the the time, how long, how far out these things still present themselves.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

Yeah, what for you is I I think as they happened that you knew you saw them coming, and you thought, oh no, I'm gonna I'm gonna work through it. It'll be fine, but then when it comes, it's something different.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

Yeah, yeah. It's it's yeah, it's it's it's you know, it's it's it's it's not real though. It's emotionally, it's like you're almost grieving, like I said, you're almost grieving a vision. Yeah. And not something that actually happened.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

Exactly. And that's the thing too, is not that I was surprised that I didn't miss something that never was going to happen. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, you talked about feeling sadness, right? Feeling sadness for a moment that that retirement vision isn't gonna be there. Um yeah, I mean, it's like crazy. It's like you you tr when you think about the complexity of grief, yeah, and how you can grieve possibilities. That's in and of itself, it like tells you how intricate intricately intertwined the heart and the mind are. Yeah. When they create the the vision of love. Right.

SPEAKER_03 28:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

I think that's that to me is like it's a powerful reality.

SPEAKER_03 28:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

You know what it what what happens in this period.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

Yeah, what also surprised me, I think, too, and and for for you all, is is that you're realizing that that grief evolves. And it's always there, but it's how you manage it in your life. It's not every day, and then it's shown on you that, oh, he must be grieving or right. So know that. Right. That it it evolves and it doesn't paralyze hopes. That's that's the hope.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

Yeah, I think you know what's funny, I it's like, you know, they they say in in analytics, you know, or if you know if you do it with data or anything like that, there's always there's always the view of like there's this chart, and they always talk about the long tail. Right. So the the like you if you think about grief in the early phases, it's like this heavy, heavy grief in the beginning, and it fades out. And over time it's becomes this really, really thin trickle of grief. Yeah. And that's what we're talking about, right? It's like the missed moments, the what-ifs and the imagines, right? And like that's the long tale where like the grief doesn't completely go away. No, it can't. It can't, right? Because this person was important to you. It's just like it's it's less of a it's less upfront, less painful than it was up front, and more of this kind of lingering, you know, recall. Yeah. So it's a recall or or you know, I won't say forecast, but it's more of like a recaller or or wish, hope, dream that's you're still h holding on to.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

Yeah, for sure, for sure. And maybe it helps you open yourself up to more to replace because you've worked through that sense of grief. Then it starts to replace more. Well, let me let these memories in for the sake of them adding to my moving forward. Yep. And and that's fine. And and so this idea of really discovering new layers years later, not only the idea of uh the the missing of what was, right, but then also new layers that opened you up to, okay, well, I I can add on to this and and I'm fine.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

And so let me continue to to to move in this way.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

Yeah, and I think uh I think when you I I like the idea of like I'm fine, because that's where this intertwined this this this blending of like gratitude and sadness comes in. Yeah. Right, like I'm fine, is I'm still sad she's gone. Sure. I'm still sad that I lost this person. Well, you for the children for the children, right? I'm still sad for her community on the years, yeah. Yeah, for for all of these different reasons. Yep. But I'm I'm grateful for this life that I got to have and the the outcomes of it, right? Children, memories, all this, you know, laughs, joys, all of this, all the good stuff. But that's where it, like when you talk about it evolving and becoming something where you have these conflicting emotions and these conflicting feelings around it. It's less about, oh, I'm so sad or I'm not happy, or less like I'm happy, I can't believe I'm happy. Because you're conflicted. It's like this this back and forth element of like the grief, the sadness, and the great, you know, this this gratefulness that you had this. That's right. Yeah. And then like this is like the reality is like this is so much about the future. Like it's just focused that loss isn't just about the past, it's also about the what could have been. Right. And I think that's the the the part that we're talking about here is you can grieve the future, or what you thought was gonna be the future, as much as you can grieve the past. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Um, and uh, you know, I think one of the things I I struggled with though, as I think about that, and to kind of touch on a little bit is like letting go for people who are in relationships in particular, um who you know, you had challenges in the relationship. Um, I think there's a part of like for me that I struggled with early on, and and sometimes it still comes up where you like you struggle with the lack of closure, right? Like you you struggle. I know I I I did, I struggled with not being able to have that final, I'm sorry, conversation. Or have those final conversations with each other around like, hey, I just want the best for you. Like all the things that you it is for me, like I had the all of these conversations in my head around like squashing the beef, right? It's like like let's let it in and and granted, we we did have so many conversations and different conversations while she was babbling, even when she realized, and we both realized that she wasn't gonna likely gonna survive it. So we did have some, but there's so many things that are left unsaid and resolutions that you didn't really get, like closure that you didn't get to have. Yeah, and I know so many of us grievers are missing closure for something, but when you have a marriage or a relationship or somebody passes suddenly and you just had a fight, right? Like, like those things get left so and they leave such deep open wounds that are undescribable versus like situations where people were like you know very happy or whatever. And I think that it just presents a different type of grief.

SPEAKER_02 33:40

And for which you have to you you have to forgive yourself for for so much of that. Yeah. It and because that were the building blocks for a life that you thought you were building, right? Essentially, yeah, which now you have to take moving forward, whatever your life looks like now, which you you clearly have something very concrete in how you have moved forward, yeah. You're now wife, child, and just all the children where they're going and where they're going to end up career-wise, their relationships, what whatever the case may be. But I think where I really struggle with with this whole idea of what life was supposed to be is that reimagining the the the future. You know, it's we started to talk about it a little um a moment ago. It's that it's this open green pastures, white palette or blank palette. Yeah. And and that that has to be written still.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, you go through the phase where you're you're there now, and and even though you're still, even though you're dating now, you you're still planning alone. That's true. Like you that's hard. Because you're you're planning alone and you don't necessarily want to be alone, but you're kind of you're planning for more than one possibility now. That's difficult. That's like a that's a it's a a totally different write, you know, a totally different uh script than what you probably what you spent 20 years writing.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

Right. Because it was thinking of twos, thinking of twos or f or fours or wherever they're two different plans for you know the the the woman I had married and the children. Better as in a relationship, make sure that we as a couple have some future after they're gone.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

Right. And we all need to think about it. Oh, yeah, because you have so many people, like this is real, like so many people build their life and then the kids leave and they're like, I don't know who you are. Right exactly. Why am I still here? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

So I I think what I also struggled though is is what you're saying too, that can come from planning alone is feeling hopeful. Yeah. And so I'm starting to let and have been, and you and I have talked about it, letting that hope and joy and happiness in. So therefore, I can feel a little bit more hopeful because I know there is a future that that move it forward.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

Right. And I think the the expectations, because when you're doing that too, like you're also you you have to be find this way to be hopeful, but you also have to let go. Reality is like you were building, potentially building a dream in a life based on not just your own expectations, but somebody else's expectations. And this comes into where the compromises have to take place. Again, I joked earlier that you know Janice would have loved retirement to be, you know, 45 years old and living on a beach, yeah, running a tiki bar, right? Like, and for me, like I was like, man, that's a hard negotiation. I I don't see financially how that's gonna happen, but I got I got some work to do with it.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

But it also allows me to change the expectations, right? It also allows me to change my own expectations now of uh when I was planning a loan, yeah. But even as I started relationship with with my wife Jordan, and we started talking about what the future and started redesigning, I had to say, what am I comfortable letting go of in in this story that I wrote before? What wasn't I comfortable writing? That's right. What wasn't what wasn't me before? What was the negotiation that I had to make? And what can I rewrite now with this new person? Right. Right. And and what did I agree with? What was I cool with before? And I and and like that's the thing, like the expectations change.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

But but also to that point, it's those things that you thought that you wanted. Is that a hard stop for you if you don't get it? It's whoa whoa whoa with your now wife. Hey, this I had planned to do, I still want that. Right. And so we're we're gonna have to negotiate and mutually understand and put together the plan to get there. Because this is very important.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

And and here's the even more complex part is some of these dreams and some of this stuff that you imagine, that you vision was not just for you and Alani or for me and and Janice at the time or whatever, it was for the kids. Yeah. So how much of that changes versus stays in place, right? And when you bring a new partner to the the the you know, into the picture, you're also saying, hey, like this is what I agreed with. Right. I'm carrying this forward. Yes. We could build around it or build on top of it, but this is this was the design for them, right? That's a whole different discussion. And and and some people look like you know, may think about like, oh, you know, you're you're paying homage to this person. No, I aligned with this is what I wanted for these kids. That's right. That's what we were that's and then that's what we aligned on. That's what so much of the foundation of the relationship was was built on was around the kids. Yeah. So that's a vision you probably can't let go. Right. Well, you don't want to.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

And then again, the struggle that you are talking about is building these new dreams atop what you had already had envisioned. Right. So that that's kind of that neck phase of it.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

It's the non-negotiables. You struggle with the non-negotiables, those are the non-negotiables that you're gonna struggle with.

unknown 39:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Um, yeah, I mean, I think it's you know, also um accepting permanent change. Like it's these it's change. It's like that book can't be written now. Yeah. Um, but that that that show can't be performed between you and the Lani or me and and Janice. It's now us, the kids, and we've introduced new casts and new characters. Right. And they have different roles. Yeah. Right. And therefore the show is different.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

And and with all the changes that have happened as you have moved to being a widower and then a single dad, and maybe those who may not have children or whatever, is that that joy you once had, there's still some yet to come. And and understanding that it ex it can exist. There's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

There's a lot, there's a lot of stuff you can like that you can laugh about and smile about and have fun, you know. Yeah. Especially if you have children that are part of that picture.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

And the simplest things that can make you joyful, yeah. You know, for sure. And so hold on to that. It's it's coming, it's still there. So, so please just hold on, do everything that you can so you can get there and and experience that.

SPEAKER_00 40:47

Yeah, yeah. Uh, one thing that makes it worse. Okay. Maybe there's several. Don't compare yourself. Don't compare yourself. Don't compare yourself to anybody else, any other but any other family, oh yeah, any other situation.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

Every single time that that can trip you, but still do it.

SPEAKER_00 41:06

Yeah, you you go to the go to the diner and it's you and the two girls, and it's somebody with their family of four or five, and they it gets harder. Don't do it.

SPEAKER_02 41:18

Yeah, so we we know we live in a world where we know how it can be made worse.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

Social media.

SPEAKER_02 41:27

Guys, yeah, come on.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

Yeah, I stopped, I stopped, I stopped the death. I honestly it was a struggle. The only reason I stayed on social media was to post and let people see the kids. Yes. Because I got tired of I I was getting tired of all the text messages and how you doing, how the kids send me a picture, how the kids, how you doing? I I appreciated it, but after a while I was like, ah man. But every time I would get on social media, there was something reminding me of my life has changed, and I won't have that future anymore. And that was that was like a constant reminder.

SPEAKER_02 42:06

And everybody, they don't put their brokenness on social media. No, they put themselves in the best ring light, yeah. And and best light. Yes, specifically and everybody's face look on their lives. Everybody's face looks so smooth. Oh, yeah, everybody's smooth, everybody's perfect, hair buffs. Yeah, that's that's topical, guys. Yeah, and and probably not real, most of it. Because come on, guys, that please stay off social media. Weddings. Oh, yeah, that can get tough.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

I I I think I attended a a couple after since since since Janice passed. I don't think I'm trying to think if I intended if I attended any uh afterwards before I got married, yeah, um, remarried.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

Maybe some of your friends' children are at that point or no? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Like most of my, yeah. A couple, a couple, but there were some reminders therefore.

SPEAKER_02 43:04

Well, you had some young people who got married in their 40s. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Like George. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So so I mean, you know, like my own doesn't count. Okay. Or maybe it did. Maybe there was like, oh man, I'm doing this again. Um, and why? But I think there was a but yeah, I mean, I know weddings, anniversary. You always remember the anniversary date.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:23

I remember I I know my anniversary date from from like it comes up and I'm like, yeah, this is yeah, that anniversary. Yeah. Right. And it's a reminder there. Or like one of my best friends got married, you know, a few months before my before I got married to Jen. I remember his anniversary like it's like it's look, you know, and and it's a reminder that, oh, mine is coming next, right? Um yeah. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:50

And it just what makes it worse, j we we already kind of talked about don't compare yourself to other people and other families, but I think also Feeling guilty creating new dreams. Yeah. That's what can make it worse for sure.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

Yeah. Yeah. Holding on to the original life script. I mean, if you think about your life as a book, you cannot write your biography until it's over.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

So if you want to write a novel, I like that. Then write all the pages now. But if you're thinking about your life as a biography and you think about what's the next chapter, you can plan that chapter, but know that you can't write the end of that. You can't write that chapter until it ends. And I think that's how we have to think about this. Like all of these things that we thought we were going to do with our late wives, positive, good, bad, or indifferent, right? All of these things that we thought were going to be our future, all these ways we thought, you know, what we thought retirement would look like, or what we thought the kids' milestones would look like. We are they have to be rewritten, right? Because it's it's a biography now and not a novel.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

Um and also what makes it worse, this idea of thinking happiness means replacement. Yeah. That can make it worse. Yeah. But what helped? What helped, Jamal?

SPEAKER_00 45:25

You know, honestly, I think the thing that helped, as much as you respect the old traditions and the old ways, like being open to new traditions and new ways of doing things. Like that that has helped me so much, to be honest, and respecting and honoring how we did things as a family, or what we did, or what I did before Janice was here. But after she passed, being open to there were new days to celebrate, there were new places to go, they were new vacations, right? You know, we could do things differently.

SPEAKER_02 46:04

Yeah, yeah, sure. You said planning those experiences, small, large, but but definitely doing it, allowing that excitement, actual, true excitement. There may be a tinge and it may have sadness and it can be muted maybe a little bit, but it nonetheless doing things that that that can be.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

Yeah, and it and I think that's a there's a balance. There's a balance in doing that and creating new memories, but also creating a memory and being able to say, wow, like Nalani or Janice, they would love this. Right. They would this this would have been cool to them. Or just creating the memory and the experience for you and the kids, and new friends and new family or new new partners, and being like, that's just a new exciting experience. Like life can move forward without those, you know, those those moments with that person.

SPEAKER_02 46:55

Yeah, and I think balanced with that is the ability to talk about future grief. Yeah. Because it's now you you you you you have we're sticking with books and writing, I guess that's how I think today is that you those volumes have been written so that you can refer to them as you understand there will be grief in the future at different stages.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

Yeah. But like they, you know, the real like I was gonna the reality is both realities can exist. Yeah, they can coexist together. Right. Like you can have a past, you can have a future that you planned and a future that has to change because of your past. Yeah. Right. And I think those that's something to think about. Like it's it's okay for this to change, it's okay for this to be different now. And we talked about there's new experiences, the new forks in the road that you have to travel.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

Yeah, dream again. Go ahead. It's all right.

SPEAKER_00 47:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:55

It's all right. Do it. Yeah. So that that's that's what that really has helped. Yep. So if you're yeah, if you're grieving guys, and women too, who listen. So when I say guys, guys are girls. If you're grieving a future that that never happened, it's it's real grief. And you don't have to explain it to anyone.

SPEAKER_00 48:16

Yeah. It's it's a part of the process, and you know, like I think that's something we're all gonna deal with. We all deal with it. You know, but I mean, think about like right, what what if moving forward isn't just about replacing the future?

SPEAKER_02 48:32

What if it's just rebuilding one?

SPEAKER_00 48:34

I mean, there's there's things, there's practical ways. Yeah, right, like we talked about, like talk about the future grief. It's okay, like it's okay to talk joyfully about this future that's right you believed you would have. You can talk joyfully about it, you could talk aside about it, and you can actually grieve and miss and be okay with it, it's gotta be rewritten.

SPEAKER_02 48:58

Because those two things can coexist as well. The the the sadness, because that reminds you of how deeply you felt about that person or what that life was was supposed to be, and then also just kind of the the joy of creating those new plans and allowing yourself to dream as as we just talked about.

SPEAKER_00 49:14

Yeah, yeah, and we continue to say that the emotions will feel conflicted, they are conflicting, which is why grief feels so crazy sometimes. Because sadness and hope can coexist, they will coexist. Yeah, and in order for you to get back up, you've gotta let the hope piece of it take the lead. Yeah, exactly. Right, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:37

You know, so I mean if you take anything from this, it's it's okay to to the the future and think and grieve and mourn for that loss, more not in a sense of paralyzed, but that healthy reflection on that.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

Yeah, but don't let yourself stop feeling the need and the desire to create a new future. Like, do not let yourself stifle your creativity and your joy and your hopefulness around what can be better in this new chapter, in this new phase of where you need to go in your life.

SPEAKER_02 50:16

You have so much more to give, not only to the person and people that are already in your universe, but these other ones that may come in as well. So we really thank you again for joining us on Getting Back Up, Finding Life After Death.

SPEAKER_00 50:33

After Death, the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 50:34

Yeah, the podcast. We got so much more coming up, don't we?

SPEAKER_00 50:38

Yeah, we got a lot of things, a lot more shows, a lot more discussions and interviews coming. And as usual, we appreciate you for joining us. We thank you. We ask you to continue liking, giving us the five stars, the thumbs up, sharing it, all the good stuff.

SPEAKER_02 50:55

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SPEAKER_00 51:03

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SPEAKER_02 51:12

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SPEAKER_00 51:25

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SPEAKER_02 51:35

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