Fork The System

Fork The System Episode 12: Kari Snorek

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Welcome to Fork The System — a podcast spotlighting the innovators, researchers, and advocacy leaders reimagining how we feed the world.

Our twelfth guest is Kari Snorek, the Director of Operations at Shrimp Welfare Project, a non-profit organization that guides the shrimp farming industry towards higher welfare practices for a more sustainable and ethical future. The Shrimp Welfare Project collaborates with global producers, seafood suppliers, and retailers to improve harvest and slaughter practices to impact the lives of over 5.4 billion shrimps per year. 

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Transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r0gRR7QFOHLgE0mMMQOf0pldbl0FOLSu4-JDBP9sIs8/edit?usp=sharing

SPEAKER_01

We have an India scoping report that was completed early on, and that report found that 95% of farmers felt care for their shrimps. So this was actually really unexpected and beautiful to read. One farmer had even said, and this is actually documented within that report, that because he spends more time with his shrimps than his own family when they suffer, he is suffering too.

SPEAKER_00

Welcome back to Fork the System, a podcast spotlighting the innovators, researchers, and advocacy leaders reimagining how we feed the world. I'm your host, Sherry Shu, exploring how we can build food systems that are sustainable, ethical, and free from animal suffering. Hey everyone, I'm super excited for today's episode since I've been wanting to have a conversation with someone from the Shrimp Welfare Project for quite a while now. Their work is super interesting and impactful, but also in an issue area that's neglected and not often talked about. So in this episode, not only do we learn a lot about the experiences of shrimp, but we also hear about Carrie's career journey into her current role in operations. Without further ado, let's get right into the episode. Today, I'm here with Carrie Snorek. Carrie is the director of operations at Shrimp Welfare Project, a nonprofit organization that guides the shrimp farming industry towards higher welfare practices for a more sustainable and ethical future. The Shrimp Welfare Project collaborates with global producers, seafood suppliers, and retailers to improve harvest and slaughter practices to improve the lives of over 5.4 billion shrimps per year. Carrie, it's great to speak with you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's great to speak with you too, Sherry. Thank you for having me. No problem.

SPEAKER_00

First, just wanting to learn a bit more about your background. What actually got you started in operations work and this whole career path to begin with?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's a great question. So I pursued a degree in sociology because during my childhood, I didn't have someone to advocate for me or protect me when I needed, specifically in the school system. And as I got older, I became curious about what shapes people to act the way that they do, you know, how people interact, form groups, and both shape and are shaped by the society that they live in. I really wanted to understand this more so I could help others and be a voice for them so they wouldn't have to experience what I experienced. While I was in university and postgraduation, I worked in the consumer banking sector as a loan processor and later a funding specialist. I eventually permanently moved to Toronto and worked at an investment brokerage firm. And this was actually my first early exposure to operations work, even though at the time I didn't recognize that. You know, when I was doing it, I was honing my attention to detail and learning systems and processes, as well as the different financial skills needed. Now, during my time at the brokerage firm, I started prepping for policing. You know, that that childhood goal of helping others was still calling to me. And recession hit, I eventually was laid off. And this was actually good because that actually gave me the time to dedicate myself fully to preparing for the policing path. The more I pursued policing, though, the more I realized it just wasn't the right fit. It is a very high stress job. I didn't want to bring that stress home with me. I also got physically injured during my training. So all of these factors really made me step back and really reflect on what I wanted my career to look like instead. Now, I've also always been fascinated by technology, and that interest led me to Apple, where I worked for 12 years in different operational capacities. Now, early on, I had a pivotal one-on-one with my manager. So we were discussing my work style and my history, and she said something that really stuck with me. You are an operations person. I see you doing all of this operational work, and you're going to be phenomenal at it. I see you growing and continuing in operations. And that conversation really reframed how I saw my own skills. I realized that operations was where I could combine what I was good at and enjoy doing with my desire to help others. I did, I learned so much from my time at Apple, valuable skills, and a strong foundation in operations, leadership, and mentoring that I continue to apply my work today. Eventually, you know, I found work where I could align my professional skills with my personal values and finally be that voice I'd always wanted to be.

SPEAKER_00

That's a wonderful story. And I think it shows so much about how one person can really change your entire perception of like what you're good at. Because so often we think we're the best judge of what we thrive in, but then people external to us that have that life experience that see us thriving can be like, wait, no, you're really good at this one thing. You speak about this through line of helping people, which I'm sure that eventually brought you to the Triple Welfare project. But specifically, what got you interested in like animal welfare throughout all of this.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. The turning point for me was seeing a transport truck full of pigs and fully observing what was occurring in front of me. And you know, that moment it changed everything for me. From that, over the next six months, my moral circle expanded as I learned more about factory farming and the realities of animal agriculture. And that later led me to make personal changes and rethink my career path. I really wanted my work to align with my values. So I started researching organizations working on animal welfare, where I discovered the broader animal welfare movement and effective altruism. And I was really drawn to the philosophy behind effective altruism, using evidence and reason to figure out how to do the most good. As I looked at different organizations, I was really particularly impressed by Shrimp Welfare Project. The combination of being highly effective, working on such a neglected cause, and the sheer scale, which we are talking about hundreds of billions of shrimps, that really stood out to me. And this was where I could finally be a voice for the voiceless in the capacity that I bring professionally.

SPEAKER_00

Thanks for sharing that experience. Exciting thing that I heard about recently, but for our audience, I heard you recently got promoted from your previous role, which was also an operation. So, like, what has your actual journey been like with the organization? When did you start with them? How did you even get the job and the role you were in? And then how has that role changed over time?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I can start with how did I get the role during that research time? I found that Trump Welfare Project was looking for an operations person. I went through the application process, and part of my application process was me sharing that transport truck moment. And just to really showcase me as an individual and the care and compassion that I have towards animals and discussing what's my skill sets, what is the impact that I'm going to make within the organization. I was hired in as the operations manager and coach, and this was three years ago. As I said, I was completely new to the animal welfare movement. So early on, I spent a lot of time learning. So getting to know the broader movement, connecting with other organizations, and taking different courses to set myself up for success so I could support Shrimp Welfare Project. I also started doing volunteer mentoring because I saw a lot of people following a similar path of mine. So coming from that for-profit space, wanting to transition into a nonprofit work. And I've been able to share my experiences and help folks navigate the transition. I had a really great mentor, and I hope that I can also be a really great mentor for others in the movement. Besides mentoring, I had shared that a passion piece of mine was coaching. So I had been providing pro bono coaching prior to joining the organization. And this was something that I was really excited to continue. So I've been coaching the team monthly, their goal setting, prioritizing, and just generally being a resource to discuss ideas with. And I also took on the work for the process of obtaining our UK charity status. So financially, I've led our annual charity audit, which is a requirement in the UK, and I keep our books up to date and partner with external accountants as needed. I was taking the workload off of our co-founders, Erin and Andreas, which allowed them to focus on other priorities that needed their attention. Now, over time, that has evolved into a real partnership with our co-executives, Erin and Christoph, and where I was collaborating on strategic work that affected the whole organization. Some of my work that I'm most proud of has been developing or building on the existing operational frameworks we need as we grow. So things like uh time-off guidelines for team members who travel exclusively, uh, extended leave guidelines covering parental leave, caregiving, and any unexpected emergencies, anti-harassment and bullying policy, which also includes our values document posted on our join us section of the website. Also, early on, I wrote an inclusive language guide for the team so that they can consciously choose words and expressions to create an environment where everyone feels valued, respected, and included, regardless of background, identity, or experiences. So I put a very big focus on building support around psychological safety for the team. And now, as we've kind of alluded to, now I'm in a director level role. So what's next for me? I'll be taking on strategic leadership across all of our global operations. When I joined, our we were a team of seven, and now we are a team of 10. We have some plans to hire a couple more people this year. I've led hiring for each of these roles, and I was also part of professionalizing our board after we received our charity status.

SPEAKER_00

Wow. Sounds like you've done so much to just set up the groundwork of the organization in a very positive manner. And like I think when people think of operations, that's not the first thing they think of, right? They think of very logistical work, but it is still really cool to see the scope of work that's possible within something like operations, where you're really just doing things to make sure the organization flows well and people feel good and are doing their best work. Absolutely. What were some of the most important skills you think you gained from for-profit work to succeed in your role now? And do you think the for-profit space was even the best place to gain those skill sets?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's a great question. Let's break it down. Yes, some skill sets that I obtained, you know, leadership. What does mentoring look like? Running projects. One of the roles I did was the visual merchandising. So essentially, when you walk into the store, all the products that see on the table, that was my doing. And I ran a team that um obviously supported in putting all of that together. I was also a mentor within our market and beyond, you know, somebody that had a lot of experience could have others reach out to me to like talk about if they had any issues. So I think just being able to know how to talk with others and understand how the work is going. Um, other one, yeah, conflict management is very important to understand like how do you talk about if there's a disagreement, how do you, you know, have respectful conversations and understand one another. Those were kind of the main pieces I would say that helped me. And is it the best place to get into? I wouldn't rank for profit or nonprofit. I would say where can you best apply your skills? What is available out there and what's an organization or a company that maybe you identify with? And you know, starting with with that, I think it's a it's a process. I think we're we're always in a process, we're always learning and growing, we're always learning more about ourselves. So I wouldn't put a rank on saying, well, this space is better over the other. I think it's just it's different, and everybody is different and what their values are to them.

SPEAKER_00

But so it's more just about finding an organization you think that like fits your whoever you are, right? Like your values, your goals, your what you want to learn, people in the firm, etc. Like, okay, that makes sense. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. We're we're you we're unique individuals. Fair advice. That is, I think, something people should self-reflect on and hopefully find roles that fit them. Absolutely. Just I guess pivoting a bit now to talking more about the shrimp welfare project. The whole notion is that there are shrimps that feel pain and that we should help them. So, like, why shrimps? Like, why should we care about these creatures that are like so small and people don't really think of them as beings deserving of care? Why should we care about them?

SPEAKER_01

It's it's a great question. You know, you step back and you look at shrimp welfare, and the scale is absolutely staggering. About 440 billion shrimps are farmed each year. And I'm saying billion, not million, and that number is more than five times the total number of all farmed land animals combined. So when you consider that even modest improvements in shrimp welfare can have an impact on billions or potentially trillions of animals, the opportunity to reduce suffering becomes absolutely enormous. Also, the industry measures shrimps and many other aquatic animals by weight or tonnage rather than counting them as individuals. So that's why that 440 billion number is just an estimate. Yeah. And again, that's just farm shrimps. The number of wild-caught shrimps is even higher, going well into the trillions. Oh, wow. So staggering numbers, as I as I mentioned. And you know, next, the science shows that they're sentient. There is growing scientific consensus that shrimps are sentient, meaning that they are capable of feeling pain and distress. There are several instances in the life of a farm shrimp where welfare can be greatly improved with fairly minimal investments and effort. And finally, it's a neglected issue. Despite this large number of farm shrimps, very few organizations are working on this issue. We were founded in 2021 as the first charity to focus exclusively on farm shrimp welfare, which means there is a tremendous opportunity to make a difference.

SPEAKER_00

Wow. That really puts the problem into perspective. I didn't realize it was I saw the four to four billion figure, and then the fact that even more are wild caught is actually something I didn't know. Yeah, so you mentioned that there's some of those initiatives that are relatively easy to implement and cheap and can just drastically reduce suffering. What initiatives in general are you working on?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, at Shrimp Welfare Project, we we guide the shrimp farming industry towards higher welfare practices for a more sustainable and ethical future. So it's largely focused on corporate engagement. So that's supporting the shrimp producers, the suppliers, and retailers in their transition to more responsible practices, such as humane slaughter and eliminating eye stalk ablation in their supply chains. And what is eye stalk ablation? That was going to be my question. Yeah, exactly. Yes. It is the practice of removing one or both of a mother shrimp's eyes by crushing, cutting, burning, or tying it off in order to speed up the maturation and increase spawning. But it it does come at a significant cost to the shrimp's health and welfare. You know, it it leads to shorter lifespans and health issues for both mother shrimps and their offsprings.

SPEAKER_00

Wait, just to sorry, just to jump in, you mentioned it's to increase spawning. Can you just elaborate like is it just the number of shrimps that the farmers want to kind of maximize? Or what is spawning essentially?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, to increase the numbers. I don't want to speak to the science exactly of it. So that's essentially why this practice was being used. I see. Okay. Sorry, continue.

SPEAKER_00

That does explain it.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, going back to the different initiatives that we are running. Next we have the electrical stunning. So that is a method that is used to render shrimps unconscious or insensible to pain before slaughter. So that also improves animal welfare during the harvest process. There are machines called stunners, which will use a controlled electric current to disrupt shrimp's nervous systems. So they lose consciousness, which helps to reduce pain and distress. As of today, we have 11 major retailers in the UK and Europe that have committed to shrimp welfare, and we've signed 30 corporate agreements with shrimp producers to provide them with an electrical stunner, which will greatly reduce shrimp suffering and distress during harvest. Some of these stunners are already in use on the ground, and others are currently being delivered and installed. But once all of these stunners are operational, our humane slaughter initiative will be improving the lives of about 5.4 billion shrimps per year. Additionally, you know, we conduct research and policy work. We engage with small-scale farmers through the Sustainable Shrimp Farming in India program and conduct outreach to inform the general public about shrimp welfare. So where do I come in with all of this as the director of operations? I do a lot of the work behind the scenes to make all of this happen. So I ensure that all the financials are in working order, processing the payments for the stunners. I track everything very carefully. I'm doing the team coaching and support. I make sure that we have the right systems in place so that the team can do their work effectively. This will include any people support. So having conversations about their workflow, determining if we need volunteers or additional support, leading hiring for the organization, and then developing those policies and guidelines that create that psychological safety for our team that I discussed earlier.

SPEAKER_00

Wow. That's very impressive. I guess the amount of impact you've already been able to make with those corporate agreements, it doesn't seem like you need that many agreements or even that many like retailers to jump on to make an impact on billions.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Even just increasing a few more retailers like in other parts of the world could easily double triple that number. I had a question just about the actual welfare practices themselves. Is it typically just that the slaughter process is really bad? Or is it just throughout their lives is the main sources of suffering that the eye stalk abolition and the actual kill itself, or is there other sources of suffering that are still being investigated? Why were these the ones that were identified as being the areas of focus?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I can go high-level into that. And we have more information within our website about why we went into these instances specifically.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And throughout the lifespan of a shrimp, there are pain points. You know, the eye sock ablation is one. Their time in the pond can be very traumatic as well. If there's a high stalking density, maybe the water quality is not so great, the parameters are not so great. The stunning process, the typical thing is kind of this ice slurry. So that essentially is they're slowly asphyxating to death in cold water with some ice. So it's it's just not a good experience throughout the lifespan of the shrimp. And so, you know, we work throughout that supply chain process to improve welfare conditions for the shrimps and then ensure that they are having a humane slaughter.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that makes sense. The final thoughts I have are just like why strategically have you chosen the specific areas of operations that you have? So you mentioned both specific retailers in higher income countries, and then you also mentioned working with smaller farmers, presumably, I'm assuming in middle-income countries. Why have you chosen those two focus areas? And then how has success been in terms of convincing both of these actors? Because my intuition is that maybe the average person does not feel strongly towards shrimp welfare, which is a major problem of concern. So, how have you been able to work with these two different stakeholder groups to convince them that this is a problem worth caring about?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's a great question. And I do want to start by clarifying we are operating globally because that farm shrimp industry, it is very global in nature. Right. So through our Humane Slaughter Initiative, the producers that we partner with are primarily in the largest shrimp producing regions, which, as you've kind of alluded to, mainly in Southeast Asia, India, and Latin America. And you know, this is where the vast majority of farm shrimp production takes place globally. But we are also working with seafood suppliers and retailers who are based in other regions throughout the world. As far as the farmer care, this, you know, it was something that really stood out to me as well when I was researching the organization. We have an India Scoping report that was completed early on, and that report found that 95% of farmers felt care for their shrimps. So this was actually really unexpected and beautiful to read. One farmer had even said, and this is actually documented within that report, that because he spends more time with his shrimps in his own family when they suffer, he is suffering too. Again, to tie that into context, you know, farmers they're interfacing with their shrimps every single day. So they can tell when the shrimps are happy and healthy versus when they don't feel well. You know, most of us, most people, we don't ever get to see shrimps alive. But the farmers, they do and they recognize that welfare matters because they observe these animals directly. So they can see the difference that good water quality, the appropriate stock. Density and humane practices take on their shrimp's well-being. And you did mention a little bit, yeah, mostly focused within the EU and the UK. You know, we help a growing number of supermarkets to develop formal welfare policies and implementation plans. And we are in promising early conditions with retailers in North America as they see the direction of where shrimp welfare is headed more globally. So for anyone listening or for yourself, you can show a demand for the higher welfare shrimps by contacting your local supermarket and ask about their shrimp welfare standards, inquire about their commitments to address humane slaughter and eye stoc ablation. And yes, please mention shrimp welfare project as a resource. We are more than happy to help.

SPEAKER_00

Great call to action. Something everyone can do because everyone shops at a supermarket and everyone has the option to advocate for better welfare practices. Thank you so much, Carrie. I don't think I have too many other questions, but I think it's been really interesting to learn so much about what it is you do, but also what it is that the Shrimp Welfare Project has been able to do. So it's really exciting to see this relatively new organization already have so much impact and continue to have the potential to impact the lives of so many animals.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you also for having me. And it's been really great having a conversation with you. Happy to talk about the organization and my work and really hope it inspires others to reach out, think about, reflect, whatever that support that they need, or if they're curious about our work, absolutely reach out to us. Earlier I mentioned that we are planning to hire a few roles this year. So currently we are hiring for two technical lead roles, one based in Latin America, preferably Ecuador or Honduras, the second in Vietnam. So that's on our join us page on our website. And also stay tuned for potential future role announcements later on in 2026. And if this work sounds interesting and impactful to you, I absolutely encourage listeners to follow us on social media, visit our website at Trumpwelfareproject.org, and subscribe to our newsletter to keep up to date on our work. And again, if you're interested in joining the team, we'd love to hear from you. This is meaningful work with real impact, and we're always looking for passionate people to help us improve the lives of billions of shrimps.

SPEAKER_00

Amazing. I'll put all that in the description and very excited to see where the work at Shrimp Welfare Project goes next. Thank you. Great, thank you. That's it for this episode of Fork the System. If you have a guest or topic you'd like to hear about, share your ideas using the feedback form linked below. Until next time.