Fork The System

Kirumira Julius on empathy-building in the animal welfare movement

• Sherry Shu • Episode 14

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Our fourteenth guest is Kirumira Julius, the Co-Founder of the African Institute for Animal Welfare, a non-profit organization whose mission is to end animal exploitation across Uganda and Africa. Their initiatives focus on promoting humane farming practices, pushing for stronger legal and policy frameworks, providing educational services, and conducting research.

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Transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/14rcFQ366n4ICnqoGi0ZHdHqvGRcp1Gii8kHtsFXjx3I/edit?usp=sharing

Kirumira: 

Now, that's the biggest problem we have in Uganda. We have policies, we have the Prevention of Cruelty Act, we have the Fish Act, we have the Breeding Act, but all of them, they are not working because no one enforces them. I see. Okay. So that's because people, their awareness is still low, [and] the leaders don't care. So I think if we can create that enforcement unit between the government and the community, then we are good enough to go, to help millions of farmed animals here in Uganda. 


[Music fades in]


Sherry:

Welcome back to Fork The System, a podcast spotlighting the innovators, researchers, and advocacy leaders reimagining how we feed the world. I'm your host, Sherry Shu, exploring how we can build food systems that are sustainable, ethical, and free from animal suffering.


Today, I'm here with Kirumira Julius. Kirumira is the co-founder of the African Institute for Animal Welfare, a nonprofit organization whose mission is to end animal exploitation across Uganda and Africa. Their initiatives focus on promoting humane farming practices, pushing for stronger legal and policy frameworks, providing educational services, and conducting research. So Kirumira, it's so great to have you today, and I'd love to learn more about the work you do. 


Kirumira: 

Thank you so much, Sherry, for hosting me and introducing me to your audience. It's a great pleasure always to talk to different people in different countries—that will push the advocacy in different perspectives. 


Sherry:

Yeah, no problem. Well said. I think it's so important for this to be a globally connected issue so that advocates across the globe can work together on a lot of these initiatives. Yeah, so just starting off, tell us a bit about the journey you've been on. What led you into animal welfare advocacy? 


Kirumira: 

Basically, this issue started way back then, when I was so young. You know, I grew up with a single mom, with a sister, my little sister. And then we used to have a little dog called Max. So Max was a good friend of mine, you know, living in a poor family, and then you have someone to look at when you come back from school to play. Because my sister was too young, we couldn't play together that much. So Max was always there. But then one time, I came back from school, and then Max was not seen anywhere near home or even in the neighborhood. But then, later in the day, we found out that Max was poisoned. 


Sherry:

Oh. 


Kirumira: 

Yes, and he had a big, big swollen belly, you know. So that's how I lost a friend. So since then, yes, I was young, but actually, because I had the love for him, we were like brothers, we could enjoy any moment together. So the loss of Max really put me into this position. And then I said, actually, something has to be done. By that time, we didn't know who did it. Was it the neighbourhood? Was it the government?


 Because since we were a poor family, we couldn't afford feeding Max on a regular basis. So he could sometimes go in the neighborhood and fetch for some eats, you know. But when I grew up, I knew that it was the government because they are doing it frequently now. They poison stray dogs, you know. So yeah, they do it. Because they say that there are too many, you know. So they're scared of rabies and any related dangers of children bites. So they poison them. That's how I lost Max, and then that's how I entered advocacy. But not at that age, it took some time to realize that I have to do something bigger than myself. 


Sherry:

Wow. Okay. Very profound story. I'm sorry you went through that. It sounds like a very bad thing to happen to someone like super early on, but I guess I'm glad it led you to what you're doing now, like the important work for animals. 


Yeah. So what then inspired you specifically to start the African Institute for Animal Welfare? Feel free to tell us a bit more about what the organization's goals and intentions are. 


Kirumira: 

Basically, it came from frustration after some time, because I carried that frustration, and then I had that hope that something has to be done. So 2019, I was 16 years. I founded, by that time it was Vegan Planet Africa. Because I had made some research on how to end this or advocate for animal freedom. And then veganism caught my attention because this advocated that maybe someone should not commit themselves to eating animal products or using any animal product. 


So I went vegan. It was easy for me to go vegan because, as I told you, we were [a] poor family and you couldn't afford meat on a regular. So you could only eat meat on big days, occasional days like Christmas, like Easter days. So for me, going vegan was simple because, anyway, I wasn't used to meat. 


Of course, I found many challenges because many people were looking at me as a kid, running an initiative that is bigger. So [the] criticism was a lot. But along the way, I got friends that believed in me, though they weren't vegans, but they at least believed in what I was advocating for. Animal welfare at this age in Uganda—because we've been having frameworks, legislations, laws since the 90s, but they have not been working. So that's frustration, the behaviour of the government, especially the level of policy and system was too low. So that's how I came in. 


But then with time, we realized that veganism, the success rate isn't that big. Because why? Veganism is seen as radical in African countries because these people are yearning to eat meat. And then you come in and telling them, stop eating meat is something that they believe is a Western culture. We could not just have much success as we are doing with our welfare projects. So we decided as a board and as a team that let's rebrand our name because even if we want people to go vegan, they will not just go straight away. For example, Sherry, when you give birth to a kid, you don't expect them to move or to walk the next day. 


Sherry:

For sure. 


Kirumira: 

There are steps taken for the baby to make the first steps. So we realized that if you want people to go vegan, you have to first put empathy and compassion. You have to first make them create bonds with animals, and then they can at least go vegan from there. So we realized that we made a mistake, but of course, we learn from our mistakes. 


We started with pig welfare because of the neglectedness, because of how they are treated. One of the most consumed meat in Uganda is the pork. And no one is talking about it, you know? That's how we came in with [the] African Institute for Animal Welfare. 


Sherry:

Yeah. Thank you for telling that story. Something that I was actually thinking about is, you talk about the baby steps, right? That people, you can't expect people to go vegan right away. You need them to develop empathy first. 


The story that you told at the beginning, it stuck out to me because you experienced the loss of a companion animal, right? A dog. And I'd say a lot of people have their companion animals highly respected, right? They would be very sad if their dog was abused or hurt, but they don't really have the same empathy for the animals they eat. Like a pig, even though a pig is, for instance, as intelligent, if not some say more intelligent than dogs. 


So, how do you think more people can undergo the experience you went through, where you expanded from just having empathy over a companion animal, to having empathy over animals in the food system as well? 


Kirumira: 

I don't think you can develop that love if you don't allow animals to come closer to you. Okay. If you are the kind of person who disrespects them, abuses them, and creates that long distance between you and the animal, then you cannot have that bond. Now for me, what helped me was the bond that I had with Max. So that bond grew up with me up to where I am now. So that's why it was easy for me to welcome farm animals into my heart. 


But when you come to Uganda and sin, even if someone has a dog, not many of them take care of them. They are just here for security, but no food. So there's no care. So don't expect someone who has an animal that protects them to love animals that they want to eat. So I think that advice I would give someone who wants to create that bond with every animal is to first allow the animals you have, create a bond with them, and then take care of them. You know, from taking care of somebody, you start getting attachments. So that's how someone can breed with animals. 


Sherry: 

Okay. There is a barrier there though, right? Because I think, like you were saying, you grew up in a family that often didn't have enough to provide for themselves. So providing for an animal was a secondary thought. But as people in Uganda, people in Africa, for instance, are able to make that connection between an animal they might respect or they might develop closer attachments to, and then eventually one that they would eat. That could be a pathway to bridge those two. 


If you look at the animal welfare space in Africa today, what are the issues that come to your mind as being the most urgent and the most neglected? And how is your organization working to tackle those problems? 


Kirumira: 

When you look at animal welfare in Africa today, the issues that I feel are most urgent and neglected—there are many, to be sincere. One thing that stands out should be the group of animals which we all know, the farmed animals. We have millions. In Uganda, we have some 170 million fish. We have 50 [million] plus chickens. We have 17 [million]  plus goats and maybe coming close to 10 million pigs. 


So in total, let's say we are having 200 [million] plus farmed animals, but the policies are poor. The community's awareness is still low. There's a big bridge between the community and the leaders, yet if we have the better policies to protect these animals, we are doing a very good job. So I think urgent and neglected is the policy side. 


What concerns me the most is that we are missing the bigger picture. Animal welfare is deeply connected to environmental sustainability and public health. So when we ignore it, we are not just failing animals. We are also failing ourselves. If we try to advocate for them urgently with time, we are also protecting our environment. We are decreasing the uncertainties of climate change, our health, people suffering from diabetes, coming from consuming a lot of meat. 


Sherry:

Right, yeah. 


Kirumira: 

And it's more in the cities. You know, in the cities, we have fast foods, junk foods, but most of them are suited to meat or chicken or pork or whatever. So people are getting risky diseases here. 


Sherry: 

Right. 


Kirumira: 

So, urgently, I think we have to focus on the policy side, because if I come to you, Sherry, and I be like, you have to take care of your animals, I'm just advocating to only one person. But when we go for better laws or better policy frameworks, then we are going to everyone. But it's going to work if it comes with strict enforcement, not just on paper. 


Now, that's the biggest problem we have in Uganda. We have policies. We have the Prevention of Cruelty Act. We have the Fish Act. We have the Breeding Act. But all of them, they are not working because no one enforces them. 


Sherry

I see, okay. 


Kirumira:

So that's because people, their awareness is still low. The leaders don't care. So I think if we can create that enforcement unit between the government and the community, then we are good enough to go, to help millions of farmed animals here in Uganda. 


Sherry:

Right. When you were talking earlier about the intersectionality of the farming problem, right, you mentioned meat production has the public health impacts. It has the environmental impacts. Have there been thoughts to combine forces with other forms of advocates that are in the environmental or public health space, probably based in Uganda or Africa, and kind of work together? 


Because I'm sure they're also struggling with similar problems, right? They might also have environmental policies that aren't being enforced or maybe very lax policies to begin with in the environmental space or public health space. So are there ways that we can kind of work together? Because this is an issue that touches all three of these problems that people care about. 


Kirumira:

Yes, we have partnerships locally with different organizations in different sectors. We organized a workshop. It was about malnutrition. Now, when you come in Uganda, 2.2 million kids that die of malnutrition. That's a big number. But why? Not because they eat a lot of meat. 


Sherry:

Right. 


Kirumira:

But because what they eat is not good. Because when you have poor seeds and then they grow, you're going to be fed poor food or whatever. When crops are growing in Uganda, there are some areas where maybe it's a lot of drought. So these people, what do they do? They buy fertilizers. Now, some of the fertilizers are already infected or are not good for human health. But because they are not taught on how to use them, they're going to use them in the wrong way. And at the end of the day, you're going to harvest your things very infected. So you're going to feed your kids in the village there. So you're going to develop certain diseases that you even don't know. 


So our workshop was a training to farmers, to local leaders on a local level. Why we are doing this is because we try to put out that intersection between the animal welfare advocates, the environmental advocates. Because in environment, you find that these advocates are also talking to farmers. And as well, we are talking to farmers. We also go into the free markets. 


So we have also partnerships with economic rights organizations. Because then these organizations here, the economic rights organizations, are going to teach you how to sell your crops or how you can get markets for your crops. So we are really doing it. We are creating partnerships with different organizations so that we create bigger impact between animals, the environment, and the humans. 


Sherry:

Yeah, that's very strategic. I think there's this perception that a lot of animal advocacy groups are opposed to farmers. I think especially from the farmer's side, they're like, stop threatening what I do, stop threatening my livelihood, and stop telling me what to do. But this method that you said you're approaching, which is here's a way to kind of make your business better. Here's how you can sell your crops better, make more money. That really aligns you with the farmer so they don't feel antagonistic towards you. 


And I guess are these types of workshops, are they focused on creating markets for plant-based crops such that farmers don't need to rely on selling meat? Is that kind of the goal? 


Kirumira:

Yes.


Sherry:

Okay. Yeah, I think that's a very smart strategy. And you said the other problem, which is fertilizers, right? I have recently heard about, here in Norway, which is where I'm studying abroad, they ran a workshop about Yara, one of the biggest fertilizer companies in Norway, and how they have perverse incentives to sell artificial fertilizers to farmers in Africa, and how that's creating dependency as well as what you mentioned, like fertilizers being used the wrong way and that leading to health impacts. So I'm glad this is two ways to deal with that problem as well. 


Do you have any other thoughts about barriers to improving welfare? So you mentioned implementation of law and policy being the main barrier. Do you think there is a consumer barrier as well? Do you think we need to get consumers to care more? And has there been success in kind of getting consumers in Uganda and Africa to also care about animal welfare? Or is it more so from the institution and policy side? 


Kirumira:

Now, to be sincere and honest, the most big barrier is structure. 


Sherry:

Okay.


Kirumira:

Yeah, it's from the system. It goes beyond awareness. So yeah, if we can at least try to work on the policy side on the system change, then the perception in the community will always change. But if we only focus on awareness, Uganda has about 55 million people. So now, if you stay only on awareness, you're going to work on a small portion of people or in a small community. But if you go beyond awareness and you go for a system change or structure change, then you are making bigger impacts. So that's the biggest barrier that we have. 


Sherry:

Does the structural change, though, require a loud voice? Or do you think even a small number of people can kind of push systems to change? Do we need all 55 million or close to that? Or could only 1 million, 2 million be sufficient to push for lasting implementation of policy? 


Kirumira:

No, we don't need all the 55 because even they don't care. 


Sherry:

Yeah, okay. 


Kirumira:

It just requires a few people that are determined to do it. 


Sherry:

Okay, and have you seen small groups of advocates be successful at improving Ugandan or African policy implementation? Have there been success stories with even these very small dedicated groups of advocates? 


Kirumira:

Now, the most success that we see in Africa or in Uganda particularly, it has not been involving policy. Now, in communities, there are many successes. Even me, I've had a lot of success within the community. 


Sherry:

Okay, that's great. 


Kirumira:

But then on the policy side, it's difficult because there are many people that you have to see. There are many meetings that you have to make. To be honest, African countries are more focused on political issues and economic issues. And more fear is not part of their priority. So it takes a lot of energy, a lot of dedication to do it. But I've seen some good policies. 


Like in Tanzania, they have the Animal Welfare Act 2008. It has powers to enforce any policy that has been adopted. In South Africa, they also have that committee that does the same. So those are good wins. 


But so far, we don't have that big win in Uganda. Though we have advocates that are trying to slow the growth of industrial animal farming, we have the groups that are trying to craft guidelines on how animals have to be transported, treated, handled. So there are groups working on different things, which is good. But we are all waiting for that final time when all these things are adopted. 


Sherry:

Do you see one policy that's more likely to be adopted sooner compared to the other ones? Is there one that's more tractable, for instance? 


Kirumira:

Yes, I see one. Right now, the Prevention of Cruelty Act is undertaking reform. So at this time of the window, you're allowed to put in your reasoning or your ideas into that law. But then, also, it has a lot of barriers because you might work out all of the necessary steps. And then on the final step, they tell you that now we have to do this and that. Now they bring out reasons that they cannot do it. 


Sherry:

I see. 


Kirumira:

But if we work more and more and put more pressure on them, there are laws that I think that will pass now or maybe later because policy is slow. You might take five years without achieving anything. But if you're on the right track, you're dedicated to meet success in the future. 


Sherry:

Right. Yeah, that's exciting. And are there ways to even make a policy like that in alignment with farmers? Because you said one of the most successful initiatives your institution has done so far is the workshops directly helping farmers, right? 


Because I guess guidelines for animal welfare treatment are currently probably seen as very antithetical or antagonistic towards farmers. So there's not very much incentive for farmers to want it or the government who is supporting farmers to want it. So are there ways to kind of bring these policies in alignment with the interests of farmers as well as the interests of animals? 


Kirumira:

Yes, of course, because when you're crafting these guidelines, you have a stakeholder engagement. You make a lot of engagements with the first stakeholders. And one of them, they're the farmers. So everything that is into the guidelines, they are being discussed with the farmers in the initial phase. 


Sherry:

Okay, yeah, that's good. That's good. I think the final question I have for you is just what's next? Like, what are the upcoming initiatives that the African Institute for Animal Welfare is doing that you're the most excited about? Or what are kind of the upcoming advocacy goals that you guys have? 


Kirumira:

Honestly, I'm most excited about the work that creates long-term change, not just immediate impact. 


Sherry:

Right. 


Kirumira:

Now, for me, that includes policy advocacy, because one policy can affect millions of animals, but also community-based initiatives where your serial mindset shifts. When a community begins to rethink how they treat animals or how they interact with the environment, that's powerful. 


So specifically, I'm excited about initiatives that engage young people, my age, or even slightly higher. Because in many situations, it's difficult to change another person, to be sincere. You're trying to advise someone who has been doing farming for the last 40 years. Now he will tell you that you don't know what you're talking about, you know? 


Sherry:

For sure. 


Kirumira:

I'm most excited about the young people, because they are the next generation. If we can influence how the next generation thinks about animals, sustainability, and ethics, then we are not just solving today's problems; we are shaping the future. 


Yes. So in such initiatives, we are thinking about doing the same thing that Tanzania did. We are trying to push for an enforcement council, because even if we advocate for these policies to change, who is going to enforce them? No one. 


Sherry:

Exactly. 


Kirumira:

So yes, we are crafting an idea to start advocating for this council to be put in place, so that it carries all the enforcement powers to push these policies, so that these policies can actually work on the ground, not just on paper.


Sherry:

Great. Those initiatives sound incredible. And the one you say about young people, starting with young people that don't have all these traditional practices or minds made up, so that we can get them on the good side, so to speak, early on, and then they can carry that with them, whatever professions they go into, that stands out as being incredibly important.


And I think a lot of young people, from what I see, are actually very receptive to more environmental stances, or progressive stances that are in favour of animal welfare. So I'm very excited as well to see future minds be changed in Uganda and beyond. 


Kirumira:

If you have that voice for the animals, for the environment, for the health, please put it out, let people hear it. If you have a chance to talk about them, if you have a chance to influence anything in your country, let it be health for the children, for the old people, for the animals, for the environment, for the climate, please do it. It's all about joining the forces and the voices, then we shall see the change we want in the world. Yes, thank you so much. 


Sherry:

Beautifully said. Thank you so much, Kirimira. I learned a lot, and I'm so excited for all the work that you will continue to do, and all the great change you'll be making in Uganda and beyond. 


That's it for this episode of Fork The System. If you have a guest or topic you'd like to hear about, share your ideas using the feedback form linked below. Until next time!


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