Drew Taylor: Director of Forensic Service

Drew Taylor has extensive education and experience in what most of us cops call CIT - Crisis Intervention Training.  Tune in to hear the innovative techniques that Lehigh County, PA is using to manage mental health issues as they fall within the criminal justice system.  Drew will delve into their system of intervention and how they shift some responsibility from law enforcement / courts to different areas.

All of you cops and prosecutors will agree that not everyone needs to be charged with crimes.  Drew gives an honest and gritty take on how to manage mental health issues without developing a program that is easily manipulated by the criminal element.

Intervention at various stages of criminal justice involvement sounds reasonable to me.  In this episode we will discuss Intercept 0 and Intercept 1.

-LEO

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Good morning, Drew Taylor. Welcome to that Leo guy, man. Good to see you.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Thanks, Chase.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Good to be here. Thanks a lot for being here. We've covered a lot of different topics. I've been going more into mental health lately, and you have a pretty significant background in that. Would you mind going into kind of what you've done in the past and then we'll get into what you're doing now?

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Sure. So academically, I my undergrad was in psychology. And then my graduate work was in counseling psychology with a specialization in addictions. And then I went back for postgraduate work in marriage and family therapy. And then it's been my full-time job is with, I work for Lehigh County, which is uh located in Pennsylvania, Allentown area. And my position, current position is the director of forensic services. And the term forensic is often used, you know, in it has kind of a wide lens, but in my particular area, it has to do with the mentally ill or folks that have significant mental uh health impairments that are either in jeopardy of entering our criminal justice system or are in it. And in my position, what I do is I manage the resources that we have employed to help those folks in those particular areas. I utilize, I am probably internationally now, use what's called the sequential intercept model. Okay. This model was designed in 2006 by Dr. Mark Munitz and Dr. Patty Griffin. And what that model does is it provides like a timeline and structure in regards to persons that are entering the criminal justice system and exiting the criminal justice system. And it provides a framework where we can implement strategies and resources that helps that person in and through successfully get out of our criminal justice system. So that's a super really important thing. And I know that you know, in the United States, I know that it is used pretty pretty thoroughly throughout the country. So it's a very helpful thing in regards to you know, helping folks again that have that kind of clinical profile, whether it's serious mental illness, intellectual disabilities, autism, traumatic brain injury, um, all Alzheimer's dementia, whatever that disability, that mental disability is, that's the folks that we're very concerned with. And that's what the sequential intercept model is very effective in helping regarding their criminal justice system.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Okay. Thank you. And since I was in the Marine Corps, so a little dense, and I do have some Marine Corps listeners, so I'll try to break some of these words down, and then you can tell me if I'm wrong. Because when we talked previously, you told it to me, and I was like, oh, you're saying this, and I was I was a little off base. So sequential intercept, meaning you're intercepting people coming in or at certain points in the criminal justice system. I think you called it a zero something for if you get them before versus the their different steps, with their final step being probation or law enforcement supervision. So there's a there's a process. Is that pretty close now?

SPEAKER_01 3:59

That's accurate.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

That you've explained it to me three times.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

So yeah. So it when you read the original document, the sequential intercept model document, that was made in 2006. And what they detail is there's five intercept points along that timeline. And intercept one is first contact. So typically that's the police. So the police are, you know, dispatched to a mental health call where the person's in whatever situation, and that's you know, known as like first contact. We've kind of widened that lens in terms of including number one, 911 dispatch. So uh those folks, the EMS people, and then also fire department. So when I say include them, what we're really talking about at intercept one that is key is the training. So intercept one is first contact, uh, intercept two is first court, a prelim. So police are called out, incident occurs, the subject is charged, taken into custody, and goes to central booking, and they have their prelim within 24 hours. The judge, the dis the magisterial district justice who do those prelims, we want to train them as well. We want to uh, you know, equip them with the knowledge of, okay, what to do with this person that has, you know, schizophrenia and is it isn't making any sense.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

That was the that was the first one I thought of because I mean, when you're a cop, a lot of time you haven't dealt with schizophrenia prior to law enforcement. And so it can be a little unbelievable when the people are saying that aliens took them or that George Bush is watching them. It's hard to wrap your head around the fact that they're not messing with you, they believe it. And these people commit crimes based on their false beliefs and their delusions.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Exactly. Exactly. And that's a key thing that you just pointed out is that is that criminal activity, that criminal behavior based on their mental health, mental illness, you know, or is it just a bad guy? You know, or or you know, so that's a and I'll get to what we've implemented in these in in intercept one through three. So back to the intercept model, intercept one is first response, intercept two is first court, intercept three is sentencing. Now the person's in into the system a little, you know, farther, and and then you know, guilt or innocence, what's good, what's gonna be involved in the sentencing part? Is the person gonna do time in jail, or are they gonna be, you know, you know, sentenced to probation? So we work with our our common please judges, because Pennsylvania's uh a commonwealth, so we're every county's gonna be different, but our our common please judges we work with in regards to sentencing.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

So we we we they we collaborate with them in terms of helping them make recommendations. So intercept three is sentencing, intercept four is that uh incarceration, uh working with corrections, and it's really re-entry. Intercept four is known as kind of re-entry point, where the jail is doing what they do and then releasing that individual back into the community. And of course, the the term we use, and it's pretty much a national term, is is re-entry planning. So that's intercept four, and then intercept five is community supervision or probation and parole. So that's the that's the sequential intercept, the five points. Uh and so what we've done and other people have done, and we've stolen ideas from you know our neighboring counties, et cetera, in terms of placing those resources in those those particular intercept points. So in 2006, that's that was it, one through five. Those of us who've implemented this model realize that there's an intercept zero. And what we call intercept zero is all diversion. Okay. And that's another term that's pretty well known. We want to divert those folks out of the criminal justice system.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Away from even entering it, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Into treatment. Yeah. And so at Intercept Zero, we've we've really kind of uh implemented some very cool, very helpful resources. So before I talk about those resources, for me, I'm the CIT coordinator. I do essentially all the mental health training in our county for our local police. Now, now you know we have 14 municipalities in Lehigh County. So we have 14 different police departments. Now we also have Pennsylvania State Police. Now that's a diff that's a different group because of the the size of their department and really the the the their own system. We're we're definitely connected and we partner in certain situations, but me as a CIT coordinator, I focus on the municipalities more. I invite state police in, but it's really focused on the, you know, the you know, the the South Whitehall, you know, township police departments, you know, and the Albertus, you know, there's little and there's the big ones. Allentown police department is our is our biggest police department in the county. And they there, we have about, I would say, I think it's about 180 officers. It's probably up to 200 now, but it should be, it should be 250.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Right, always, right? Everybody's 25% short.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Yeah, that's a national thing, and you could probably comment on that, being, you know, more in touch with some of that, some of that data, but you know, but that's what I've always seen from my I'm technically paid as an employee of Lehigh County Department of Human Services. So now I'm kind of a hybrid because to back up, you know, I've been doing I've been in the mental health, I my first job in the mental health field was in 1988.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Okay. I was five.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

So I was I've been around for a while.

SPEAKER_02 10:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

I entered, I really kind of entered into more of the criminal justice part of things because I left my position in uh adult mental health in 1996 to start our juvenile forensic probation unit. And I'll get to that in terms of you know, some of the, you know, as we go through the sequential intercept model in probation and parole. But what that did, they, you know, they deputized me. I became an officer of the court. I got exposed to, you know, defense tactic training, use a force model, all the things that we would use in probation as a probation officer. And then, you know, it really kind of set me up for a lot of what I do now. I I'm the director and I took the director's position in 06. And then in 2014, I launched CIT training.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

So that's kind of the.

SPEAKER_00 11:37

Yeah, that's that's about when it took off, if I remember, because it was just when you deal with the mentally ill or the aggressive as a cop. When I came on, it was just kind of like, no, we're in charge. We just kind of tell them how it is. And then things shifted around that time. You're saying in my area too, in South Georgia, to no, we need to actually understand what's going on here. Because there's really nothing good about getting in a fight with a somebody that's actually bipolar, not somebody that just has no emotional control and they're, you know, they fly off the handle and use it as an excuse, which I also wanted to ask you about because everything is diagnosed now. Anyone that cusses out the cops as every cop listening has heard people go, I'm bipolar, I'm bipolar. And it's like, yeah, are you clinically bipolar or are you just a jerk? I can't imagine trying to sort that out.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

No, you're absolutely right on. And in our training, in about 2017, I came in touch with, I looked for champions, like police officers that were really champions for kind of what we're doing and found a number of them. One of them stands out. His name is Dr. Ben Yopst, an I O B S T. And he has launched a he retired from APD, but he was like my partner. And we really kind of, as a mental health professional, I really got a sense of really what the cops' view and perception and experience has been. And that's what CIT does.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

CIT, it's not just a training when I launched it in 2014. It's a relationship-building network. And so that's what that's why I always start with, you know, when I talk about kind of what we're doing in Lee County, it all started with CIT training because that forged that collaborative relationship.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Yeah. And, you know, that's that's seen as the the first the first responder, but I'm glad you included dispatchers because if they can hear it in the call and pick up on it, then you know, I've had these conversations before with people where they say, like, oh, cops are, you know, they show up with a mean face, or we need social workers. You know, if it's a mental health call, like you said, we need a social worker. And my response is sometimes these people are violent. And you generally don't know because the dispatchers don't know. They just have somebody calling saying, hey, they're following me and they've been shooting at me. And really, it's just somebody that it's a totally mental health homeless person who's delusioning. So the cops get there and, you know, yeah, do whatever they do. You just my point is you don't know what you're walking into. You don't know it's a mental health call, usually.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

And and it aggravates me for the public that are un there, they just don't know what what good police officers do. I mean, that's what I've found. Like when doing the CIT and like, you know, collaborating, Bench, there's so much on cops. There's so much they have to be social workers and you know, engineer. I mean, they have to do so much. And that's where I'm like from from the DHS from human services, I'm like, we should be partnering with the police.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

Let's take something off them a little bit and help them out.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

This this is ours. We should we we should be handling that. Now, not as first responders, I don't believe that. I I do like co-responding models, which we do not have, and I want to get to that.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

What does that mean, co-responding models?

SPEAKER_01 15:15

So when you look at remember Intercept Zero, Intercept Zero and One, what you'll see is models now in the police, and one of the real kind of noted ones is the crisis cops, Ernie and Joe. I don't know if you've ever seen that one. Check it out. It's they made a documentary, it's super cool, met those guys. Now, that's that model is two cops became highly trained in mental health, and they have a crisis unit within the department. Then there's the co-responding model, which then brings in like a social worker, a mental health professional, and the mental health professional and cop go out together.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Gotcha. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

So that's a co-responding model.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

I mean, my first thought with that is I mean, are you teaching the social worker defensive tactics? And uh because putting putting them out there, uh so they're learning a little bit, but their first goal is social work. They can, they've been taught to fight a little bit if they have to. I'll tell you a conversation I had 10, 15 years ago with a friend from high school, been when Facebook was more popular than it is now, and everybody was posting their views about police misconduct and you know, based on a three-second video. And she was posting all this stuff, and she was saying that basically police should be defunded and it should be social workers responding to these mental health scenes. Yeah. And I I mean, I never engage with this kind of crap. And I just, but I knew her in high school, so I was like, I don't think she's just an aggressive idiot. I think her heart's in the right place and she just doesn't know. And I've been policing a little while, like, let me talk to my friend or my my friend from you know 20 years ago or whatever. So I I kind of told her that like, hey, the cops don't know when they're going to this. You can't, it's rare. You just have a mental health call. It's usually a trespasser, a burglar, and then you find out. And then she was like, Well, it should be social workers responding. And I said what I just said to you. What about, you know, if the guy has a gun and he thinks they're an alien or you know, any of these things, or just bipolar and the switch flips. He goes from manic to something, whatever. And it turns violent. She said, Well, then you need to teach them to fight. And I said, Well, what if it's a shooting? Well, she said, You need to teach them to shoot and they have a gun. I said, That's a cop. That's just uh, you're just putting a different, uh, you're just painting this person differently. And another thing you said that it's exactly what I said to her, because she lived in Washington, DC, and she was just everything I said, she had an immediate aggressive response for what assholes cops are. And yeah, I said, look, if you think that, just do this. I said, I'm telling you right now, I've been doing this for a minute, and you're wrong. And cops aren't just most of them are good people. Yes. Like well over probably 99% are good people there to do the right thing. Absolutely. And you do have the occasional bad apple, which makes major news, you know, whatever, because because it's a position of public trust. I said, go ride with DC Metro Police.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

I said, do two nights of night shift and tell me if you see that officer or any of his partners out there victimizing people. Give them two nights. Give them, I don't know if they work eights or twelves, but give them 16 or 24 hours and see if they spend most of their time just beating up people and locking people up for no reason or trying to help trying to help people.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

Right. That's totally what I was thinking. If if you're making this argument, have you ever done a ride along? Have you ever done a ride on? So so for us like mental health people, you really need to do that. And and then what we're trying to do in Lehigh County is our advisory board, our mental health Lehigh County Mental Health Advisory Board, all those folks, we are having them do ride-alongs. So it's again like partnering, and that and we need to do that. Now, in our model, so in our model, we it's not a co-responding model. Back to Intercept Zero. We have what's called the Community Intervention Specialist Program. Community Intervention Specialists. So I know it's a lot of acronyms, but you know, I got you. So CISs. Our CIS is we put every remember there's 14 municipalities, police departments in in Lee County. We have a CIS assigned to every one of those police departments. Okay, so what does that mean? That is a mental health professional that when the police are doing their job, they called out to a mental health, you know, call, they you know, secure the scene, they deal with the person, whatever it is, and then they refer that that that person to our CISs. And then our CISs do follow-up.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

And we have little, we have meetings that go over, and I'm a part of those meetings. I oversee the CIS program. So we go over like those cases. So I love that model. Now, our DA, our district, district attorney. Now we have a different one now. Our previous one, Jim Martin. Now it's Gavin Hollihan, both are excellent. Jim was absolutely not going to approve a co-responding model. So that's another kind of system piece to like implementing some of the services. Gotta like, you know, get the blessing, the approval, the collaboration with our DA's office. So that's another piece to this. But he was not going to have. So if the listeners are like, oh, we want one of those in those things, that's one of the things that you have to do is you have to get a group together to really implement that kind of model.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Why does the DA need to bless off an early intervention of mental health?

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Because if you are, if you want to advance a model of co-responding, you've got to get the the bossing of our DA. I mean, that's just that's how I always understood it.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

I don't know how it is in other stuff.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

I'm just well, where I've always been, the DAs are the prosecutors. So if you're I don't want to sound, you know, abrasive, but they kind of, to some degree, they get what they get. So uh is the is the CIS are they charging people? It sounds like the goal is to divert people away from getting charges.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

It is.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

It's hand in the baton. So is it is it that the DA's office? Makes the charging decision. So it's kind of taking that decision where it's like, yes, this person may be about to commit crimes or committing crimes, but we're going to divert them a different way.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

It could. And I'll I'll talk some more about that because I haven't got a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

I'm asking you to I'm ambushing you a little bit. I'm just trying to understand.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

No, it's cool. So and and I don't know what it's like in other states. Like I know in our Commonwealth, in Lehigh County, the DA is the top law enforcement officer.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Okay. Everywhere I've been, they're not, they're the top law enforcement officer is the sheriff or the police chief. But the uh maybe that maybe they are technically, but they're not really investigating. They're making charging decisions and going forward on that side.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

Oh no. RTA was definitely top guy.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Okay, gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

And he and he was he was like a a character too. I love Jim, man. Jim's awesome. But he's like, you know, a guy when he walks in the room, man, you're respecting him. He's he was awesome. And you know, he retired, and now Gavin is in, and Gavin's great too. But okay. So back to the CIS. So that model that we have is we in mental health, we got a contract with Pinebrook Family Answers. That's the name of the provider of service. They do a number of things in the mental health realm, and that's who hires and manages the CISs. I oversee it from a county perspective. So we all work in collaboration. And of course, all the police departments, you know, partner with that CIS. So it's great, it's a great model. Our CISs are absolutely amazing. I love them. We talk all the time. You know, you know, my phone is always kind of going off, and we're running stuff past each other and you know, collaborating. So that's important. Okay. But I also want to get to uh our crisis intervention department.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

So one one more question with CIS. So these are cops. No, they're mental health professionals. They're they're mental health professionals, but there's 14 municipalities in your area. Yes, departments. Each and each one has so the city I'm in has 11 precincts, and they have around 2,500 officers total. So they would be putting a mental health professional with each precinct or each ship, maybe even more than that. And those officers, if they have a severe mental health case where they can tell that the person is clearly going to go to jail in the very near future, needs a diversion, mental health that's causing them to commit crimes, they have somebody they can call to get the monkey off their back. And yeah. And that would be my view as the patrol cop is like, I don't want to put this guy in jail, but I don't want to take him to the hospital because the funny thing with mental health is when pe when it's severe, people turn to substances because they've been alienated by their loved ones and they're on the streets. People don't acknowledge it. The the funniest one to me, not ha ha funny, is people that are just like, especially family members that are like, they're so frustrated. They're like, he just won't take his meds. Right. And it's like, yeah, he's it's a tough spot. Like he's not taking his meds or his mental health because of his mental health issues, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Yeah. Absolutely. These are my people.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

Like that's yeah, if you're if your mind was clear, clear enough to take the meds, you wouldn't need the meds. So it's like you're kind of stuck.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

And and that officer that's dealing with that person would would refer that to the CIS. The CIS then pulls in the treatment provider, pulls in any other. If it's a co-occurring, like drug and alcohol, what we do is we we also have CRSs, again, another acronym, certified recovery specialists. And a certified recovery specialist is a person that has had an addiction, a you know, a dependency on something, and has entered into recovery, sustained the recovery for a significant period of time, and and continues to do so, and then gets certified to help others. So that's a certified recovery specialist.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

Probably the most important thing because they can actually understand the addiction and show people real empathy, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Exactly. It's uh it's a vet talking to a vet. Yeah, you know, it's like that powerful, you know, connection.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

So anyway, they're never gonna just say, just stop drinking, right? They they understand it's more than that.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Exactly. And so we just, you know, we start that CIS starts to really kind of pull a team together for that person. You mentioned family, like the the family that says he just won't take his med. So that's another really good resource that we utilize. It's called NAMI, National Alliance on Mental Illness. NAMI, N-A-M-I. And it that's again national, right? So we utilize, I hook those parents up with my NAMI mommies, I call uh Diane Gilroy, Maggie Murphy. I have literally them call that mom and connect with that. And that family support and advocacy is super important too. So I think you really kind of kind of put your finger on something that's also important in terms of getting that person, that whole holistic kind of help.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

The realistic help that they're gonna need day to day. I mean, that the CIS is not gonna sit with them day to day, but the family might ensure, hey, you need to be taking this Larazopam or whatever you got going.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

That's right, exactly. Exactly. So, but I wanted to get back to a point for folks that are listening, is the also the crisis intervention department. The what you know, part of human services includes crisis intervention. What's crisis intervention in Lehigh County? It's a 24-7 free service for anybody that's having a mental health crisis.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

It's like the veterans hotline, but for non-veterans.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Right. And they can but we but here's the thing: it's understanding what the capabilities of that crisis department does. Do are they mobile? Do they go out or do they just talk on the phone? Um, so understanding your mobile crisis is an important part of it because that's what this RCIT training does initially is like when do when me as a patrol officer, when do I utilize crisis? When do I call them? I want them on scene. They can come out on scene and assess. Okay. But it's always the police are going to secure the scene. We're it's not like a corresponding model, you know, in not in Lehigh County. Like that's the where the police, you know, are the police.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

You know, how would you how would you rate your success at getting word? Obviously, this is something I would have loved to have as a police officer. I mean, I never went to CIT training. So when I went to mental health calls, I could call the CIT officer. I didn't feel there was a big difference. I just dealt with the people, but I would have loved to be able to call somebody, if nothing else, to take the work for me so I could not be out there for two hours dealing with this.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Sure. But you gotta you gotta go be policing. That's where we hand off the baton. That's what the way I always think.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Yeah. Hand it to the professional, let them do that. How would you rate your success getting the word out to the police officers? Do the 200 officers in your county know about and use your CIS's, your your different programs, or do you feel like you need to reach more?

SPEAKER_01 29:52

They were well established. They know. Okay. The CIS program started in 2017. And again, here's the think of our structure, our DA has, you know, a meeting with all the chiefs of police. And then I go there and I educate there. Uh my bed, remember Ben Yopes, he's retired sergeant from APD. He's my partner now. So we hired him from the county. He retired from Allentown Police Department. He's my guy. He's my main champion and uh also a combat vet. So it, you know, Ben's amazing. And so we then, you know, do educational things. We do uh he we just put together a video thing that you can the chiefs can send out to all their their whole departments in terms of educational thing. Like he here's an update in regards to what we a 302 or involuntary commitment information. Here's an update on remember, call call crisis under these kind of circumstances, and they'll come out and assess your person. You know, so we do it, we saturate in terms of you know, getting the word out. So that's good. That that's you know, our success rate in terms of exposure to all this, it it's happening.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

Good.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Unless the officer is like, you know, brand new, but we t I teach it, we teach at the police academy. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

So it's out, all the supervisors know all this.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

And APD, Allentown Police Department, again, that's the our biggest department. They have me do a three-hour mental health training for all new hires. So they come out of the academy, they they've heard us there, me and Ben teach there. Then they I do a three-hour one, then we offer the CIT the five-day, that's once a year in in April, and then I we have we offer two two-day mental health trainings. So we consolidate the CIT stuff into two days. And that includes role plays. We do scenario role plays, you know, a lot of that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

That's good.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

De-escalation.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Yeah, it's definitely learning it in the academy and then seeing it when it's the middle of the night and you're tired and hungry, and the person's, and it's it's just not clear, like I was saying earlier, always. Sometimes the con and I did an episode on mental illness because cops just deal with it, it seems like every shift. A lot of time early in the conversation, you don't know. It's something that could be plausible, and they're saying, so I'm kind of sticking with schizophrenia because it's the most extreme a lot.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

With hallucinations and these wild illusions. But you may not know. And I've just seen it really mishandled by police when you they're saying, like, oh, I'm being followed by the police. And you believe them. You know, you just kind of stumble a little bit. I've also seen cops, and I I hate to admit it, but I have seen it, where they're low-key making fun of the person with the mental health issue. They're there, I go with it when, you know, if you're talking about a delusion, I don't say there are no aliens. Like, uh you're not gonna do that. You're just gonna cause issues, but I'm also not gonna be like, oh, what do the aliens look like? They green. Did they take you up in the ship? Did they have some fun with you? Like people do this sometimes, and it's a real asshole thing to do, I think.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

You're you are right there, exactly what it this our CIT training addresses, and I do the mental health piece. So you are absolutely right on. You don't dispute the delusion, but you don't feed into the delusion. What you do is you create kind of a containment of empathy, active listening skills, while you're really up, this really upsets you. I don't see that alien that's over there, but I but it it is very upsetting to you. And I want to work with you to come up with a plan that we can like, you know, that we're gonna agree on that's gonna be helpful.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

Let's get you through it. Hey, if if it's all right, let's let's break it. And I want to go more into detail. I don't want to be rushed, but we've gone pretty well into zero and one.

unknown 34:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

And I think we still got two, three, four, five to tackle. So let's break it and make that a separate episode so the listeners aren't stuck listening to us jabber for over an hour. That's all right with you. Sounds good to me. Man, I can't wait for the next one. I think this is great, super important topic that you're clearly passionate about. And I can't wait to do this again in the next couple of days. All right.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

Awesome, Chase. Yeah. I love, you know, brothers and sisters in law enforcement and us from the mental health, you know, really connecting and collaborating. That's what this is all about.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Thank you, Drew. Appreciate it. Cool, man.