LEO visits Groganistan

Kevin Grogan started his career just like the rest of us - bright eyed, ambitious, curious.  After some years, some time wearing a yellow shirt, investigating homicides and working in the Savannah Gang Unit, it all came crashing down.

Tune in for Kevin's account of his sudden fall during his climb.  

We've all made mistakes, we've all had close calls, and Kevin opens up about the errors of his ways and what he would've done differently.

-LEO

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:06

Good morning. It's Leo here with Kevin Grogan. How's it going, man?

SPEAKER_00 0:11

It is going, my brother. Thanks for having me on.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

Yeah, thanks a lot. You have a pretty illustrious background between law enforcement and military. You mind just telling the listeners about, you know, what you've been doing since you became a man?

SPEAKER_00 0:27

I don't know if it's illustrious, but it's infamous to say the least. So I I am an army veteran. I proudly served with the 3rd Infantry Division and rode with the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment in Soder City and Baghdad. When I finished with that, I hopped out, did a quick little stint with the DOD police on Fort Stewart, home of the mighty 3rd Infantry Division, and then got hired on with the first class of the Savannah Chatham Metropolitan Police Department. Worked there for about three years, went out to a narcotics task force, which was the Mace Drug Task Force covering Liberty in Long County because I didn't want to work for some jokers in Chatham County. We won't talk about them. And then I came back to Savannah and worked a multitude of assignments back at the Savannah-Chatham Metropolitan Police Departments. But you know, I I've worked patrol, I've worked crime suppression, narcotics, gangs, OCDF cases with the FBI and the ATF, and then finished up in homicide.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

And you uh brush shoulders with some of the better-known ATF EUP or enhanced undercover program guys, namely Lou Velozzi. I think you guys have a lot of history, and maybe Jay Dobbins.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Yeah, man, those those guys. So Lou and I worked very, very close together. Worked a couple OSADF cases together. He and Toby Taylor and Ralph McNaese. You know, Lou obviously is the big name with his books and TV show operation undercover. And through him, I met guys like Chris Bayliss, you know, who's a hero of mine. Jay Dobbins, obviously, New York Times bestselling author. And I mean, Bird, what a what a career story that guy's got. You know, and then a lot of those relationships l led me to rub elbows with some of the greatest that ever played the game, to include guys like DEA agents Javier Peña and Steve Murphy, who the Netflix series Narcos is based on. But I'm proud to count them among my friends.

SPEAKER_03 2:44

When were you working with these uh ATF fellas? Where what position were you in?

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Really, really?

SPEAKER_03 2:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Anytime I worked with the ATF, I was on patrol. Special assignments, got tasked on on OCDF stuff. Then when I went out to the narcotics task force, they were doing a storefront out in Statesboro, Georgia, where Georgia Southern University is. And I I got to be pretty involved in that. So, you know, I got to see it from all different angles. But the, you know, my time on the street was a lot intertwined with ATF guys because they were, you know, as you well know, they were really in touch. They had the the pulse of what was going on in Savannah.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

They did, yeah. You had some wild cases in the Kyler Brownville neighborhood. I remember a wanted poster for one of the guys you were looking for. I'm sure you could spit out his name right now, but it was from like video from a CI from a camera that was hidden on an informant, and it was like your target with a gun pointing right at the camera because he was robbing your informant.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Yeah, man, you can't you can't get any better evidence than that than uh, you know, the the suspect. And and I remember interviewing him. I was like, hey man, you know the dude on the bike that you that you robbed, and he's like, nah, man, I didn't do that. And I showed him the picture and he's like, Yeah, I did it.

SPEAKER_03 4:03

Yeah, yeah, you got it. Let me tell you about my circumstances, though. It wasn't fair. What did he rob him of? I'm assuming that's all gone through court, so you can talk about it now. Oh, yeah, man. He's robot.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

Is that right? No, no, no. It was a couple hundred bucks. It was a gun deal. So we we had set it up, we had done, you know, some controlled buys using the informant, and what we were doing is we kept trying to buy crack and guns or a combination thereof so we could get you know the 924C and all the enhancements and that. Because they, you know, these guys, we were getting guys that were pulling triggers. It was based on, you know, it wasn't so much just getting anybody when we wanted to get the right guys, and this guy just happened to be terrorizing Savannah at the time. And sure, sure as shit, is any anytime anybody who's been in the business anytime knows, you know, anytime you're buying guns and drugs, you're gonna get robbed. It's gonna happen. Yeah. And sure shit, we had it right there on a beautiful recording. I'm just glad he didn't kill him because that was.

SPEAKER_03 5:02

Yeah, no shit. Or, you know, when I was at ATF, kind of the motto was we don't want robbers that might do a murder. We want murderers that might do a robbery. That was the targets that we were trying to get, like you said, trigger pullers. So it's I was really when I worked neighborhoods, I really found that the ATF agents were the one they were dealing with the targets I was dealing with shooting at people on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

No, A ATF has such a there's such a misconception of what the ATF does, and everybody, you know, all the second men guys wave their fists like thinking it's a regulatory body, and you and I both know that that's not it. The ATF are really they're the tip of the spear when it comes to the feds and dealing with violent crime, in my not so humble opinion.

SPEAKER_03 5:50

I I think you're right. I mean, and I still get calls from my military buddies, both Marines and because I was in Savannah, you know, buddies from the Ranger Regiment. And sometimes it'll start with, like, hey, by the way, fuck the ATF. And I'm like, all right, whatever. And then there's this question about registering their weapon or whatever, because those guys all like guns. And I've told a million people, like, hey man, I own some guns. Like, I I don't know any agents that don't like guns. They just don't like people murdering people with guns and like shooting strays with a Glock switch, you know, 300 shell casing crime scenes where they're not aiming. That's a problem.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Yeah, no, and I can only speak from the experience in Savannah, but I can tell you when you start adding up the alphabets, like FBI, DEA, it there was no, especially during that time frame. So you're talking 2006 to 2014 or so, there was nobody more engaged in knowing what was going on in the streets and actually doing something about it.

SPEAKER_03 6:51

And I don't I imagine a neighborhood like CBV, Collar Brownville, where I mean, you could probably tell me the numbers being, you know, with your time on the gang unit and the homicide unit, it's something like 80% of the violent crime in the whole city. And the neighborhood's like seven blocks long.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Yeah, no, and the the thing is it it was long the epicenter of violent crime. Hitch Village, when I started, Hitch Village, Waters Avenue, and Collar Brownsville were by far, you know, 80% is probably reasonable.

SPEAKER_03 7:21

Yeah, but that's not really a a DEA or FBI level targets in there from what I found. It's uh you know, there might be the occasional kilos, but usually those guys aren't in those high robbery neighborhoods.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

No, and it's the thing. It wasn't the amount of dope. It was it that wasn't what drew the attention of the federal operations. It was the violence. And holy shit. I mean, you you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:45

I'm familiar. So what did you want to talk about today? You you came in with something specific you want to get into. And, you know, when when I was new to law enforcement, you were a veteran. I mean, you've talked about you remember when I came on and you know, I was all green out there in the West Chatham precinct and running amuck and didn't even know the mistakes I was making. So I was making them so fast and loose. And I think you feel like you have some knowledge to kick, and you know, if it saves a career or saves a life or saves a family, that's a good day, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Well, dude, and that that's the thing. So, first of all, I do remember when you came on and you were kicking things around and and messing things up and you know, going out making a general nuisance of yourself. And I remember sitting back thinking, damn, this kid's gonna, he's gonna be something because you were making all the right mistakes. Yeah, putting out, but you were putting out all the right energy. You know, it was very clear you weren't there to be a cop to show everybody that you had what I call sunglasses and cell phones. You weren't riding around, you were actually trying to do something in the community. And you know, I have nothing but love for you know the memories of you doing that. You know, you've had Santoro on here a good bit, and we I we all were in the same precinct. I was there for a quick minute before getting dragged to yet another special assignment because I was always kind of lucky to be dragged in on that. But we also met when I was nearing the end of my rope. You know, I I was burning, I was burning the candle at both ends, running and gunning, doing all the things a little more seasoned, a little more experienced, but same tempo. And I remember riding with a guy one time. We were on a highly aggressive crime suppression unit early in my career. And we're it was forced friendship day. Sarge made us get in the cars together and and we're riding around a neighborhood, and it was I remember it was a Tuesday morning. It's Tuesday morning, nine o'clock, and this dude's in my ear bitching about how there's nothing out here. This is a waste of time. We shouldn't even be out here, there's nothing going on. And I'm just thinking, God, this dude, like what I was just describing about you and Rob, this guy was the opposite. He didn't, you know, he didn't really get it. He didn't understand. I'm like, dude, if you can't find what's going on in Savannah right now, you're not the real police. And and I say that, you know, it takes all different kinds, as you well know. All right. But it he was not a highly aggressive crime suppression guy. We get to our first meeting place, and I'm like, Sarge, I can't ride with this dude. But during that conversation, he's telling me, dude, you gotta, you know, you gotta pace yourself, you're gonna burn yourself out. And I'm like, fuck you. You know, there's no way you don't know what you're talking about. Well, fast forward in my career, and he was absolutely right.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

So, you know, I I went at that pace because I loved it, man. I I would work 12 hours a day doing that kind of work. And if I had to go leave that to go get a full-time job to pay for what I was doing the other 12 hours a day, I would have. That's how much, you know, I loved it. That's how much I was into it and that. But man, that has some serious life ramifications on on that. You know, you can't go because you see so much.

SPEAKER_03 11:08

Yeah, I've talked, I've talked at length, and you know, I put it on the Facebook as well a lot. Things about self-care because cops just neglected across the board. That's why you hear stories about like, hey, this dude retired at 60 and was dead at 61. Like, we just run ourselves into the ground, and I think you have some firsthand experience that maybe you don't want, you know, young cops to do if they're at the one to 10 year mark, maybe learn from yours and my mistakes and, you know, have a long, healthy career in life.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

No, man, and that that to me is what it's all about. That's what I do now. You know, short a couple years ago, I wrote uh I wrote a couple books kind of telling all my stories and and the ins and outs, you know, the goods and the bads, you know, pat myself on the back telling the telling the war stories, which was all fun. But the the point of emphasis and what I was trying to point out is look, don't do, don't do it the way I did it. Go out and do great things, you know, running and gunning, keeping your community safe, go after the drugs, go after the guns, go after the gangbangers, do that. But don't do it at the expense of your own well-being.

SPEAKER_03 12:20

You know, can you go into that for the people? I mean, they're you know, if they've been on five years, they be make they may be making the same mistakes that you did. What what did it look like to you? Is it did there come a point that you realized, ooh, I'm messing up, but I don't know how to turn this ship? Or kind of what was that path like?

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Well, it the thing is, man, I didn't realize it until it came until it came crashing down. Like, you know, I I was in homicide by the time I realized how fucked up I was. You know, and I don't know your opinions on PTSD and all of that kind of stuff, but you know, I'm I'm an old man compared to you. I'm an old man, hopefully compared to a lot of your listeners. But uh the thing is, it back in my day there was no PTSD. You didn't cry about that shit, you didn't whatever. But uh it's a very real thing, you know. You you do time in in combat, and I I include time on the street policing as time in combat. You know, it's it it's a a very similar experience. Maybe not as many bullets are flying, and some of the instances aren't as dramatic, but some are. Some are even more so.

SPEAKER_03 13:26

But and the emotional turmoil, I would say, is arguably more. I mean, you're meeting victims you're uh uh every day.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Well that that's that's where I realized I was that I was screwed up, man. It was actually uh a baby death, you know, because of the way violent crime or violent crime office in Savannah was configured, is you weren't just working murders, you were working aggravated assaults, and you were working any any natural deaths, natural or unnatural deaths. You know, somebody under the age of 65, you're going investigating, well, why is this person dead? A lot of the time that's just its nature, people die. And part of that was, you know, they used to call it SIDS, I don't know what they call it now, but sudden infant death syndrome. Baby would go to sleep and not wake up. Yeah. And I remember it it's actually I'm actually in the course of writing my third book, and it the shit really hit me as to how much it affected me. And this is, you know, this is 15 years later, and I I still have trouble writing about it because I didn't realize how much of an effect it had on me. But man, you know, baby goes to bed, wakes up, or doesn't wake up the next morning. And I remember I'd been to 50 autopsies at at that point in my career. And you know, you take you take somebody like me, you lay me down on the slab, cut me open and and measure my uh internal organs and that kind of stuff, you're gonna see broken bones, you're gonna see, you know, a fatty layer, you're gonna see, you know, in my case, you'll see a lot of fat. But you know, any human that's lived a while, you there's a lot of defects inside the body and that kind of stuff. But man, it was when they opened up that little baby who was not not a full year old yet, and when they opened him up, it was almost like looking at a biology textbook, almost like it was drawn, it didn't look real. And that that played with my head then and it played with it for years. But where it really got me was about the 10-year mark. So I got home from Iraq in 2004 and I shit the bed in my police career in 2014. You know, I I got involved. I was drinking like a fucking madman. So I'm working murders, I'm I'm doing all these things. And when I got done, it wasn't so much that I drank every day, but I didn't have an off switch. When I sat down to drink, boy, I went to it. You know, I I was about that life. There was no off switch or whatever. I I drank till my central nervous system told me I couldn't drink anymore. And you know, that was something that I would do on a weekly basis. I tried not to let it affect my work, and I I thought I was doing a good job of that, which I fucking absolutely was not. Yeah, you know, I was a train wreck and I just never dealt with it. So the thing is, you know, I've read extensively at this point on PTSD, and they say untreated PTSD, usually about 10 years, that's when it will s rear its ugly head, and that that is exactly when it got me. So March of 2004, I'm home. July of 2014 is when you know I I hit my rock bottom, and that was, you know, that was getting a DUI where I hit I hit a car that was in front of me, and you know, it it was the whole process. And it a DUI is is salvageable, you know, you you can survive that in your career. Except mine was mine turned out to be a little bit of a bigger deal, and that's something you know people can read about in in my first book, tell you all the details about it. But the more important thing to bring or or to think about in that is you can't leave the shit untreated because I don't care who you are, you know. Like I said, you were talking about Lou. Lou's big tough dude.

SPEAKER_03 17:32

You know, you look at you look at all the pictures and photographs and watch the big Italian shows and all the tattoos, undercover career, exudes confidence.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

Yeah, I mean, an undercover legend. And the thing is, PTSD, all that kind of stuff, untreated, he had the same type of implosion. Not not with uh DUI, but similar, you know, and there's so many other people. I think the the longer your career goes, the more people you meet, you're gonna meet more people like me and him. Yeah, but you know, it we're cautionary tales. And he and I did a podcast a couple years back where that was our big thing, you know, mental health and the stigma of getting help. The the thing is it it's great to work your ass off, it's great to throw yourself into your career in your job, but it's not worth it if you're not taking care of yourself. And there's so many outlets now in 2026 as opposed to 2006.

SPEAKER_03 18:31

You know, so back then there was a stigma about like, hey, if you're a big tough guy, you just deal with it. You know, you do choir practice or you you do whatever you need to do personally.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Well, right. No, and I mean I can't tell you how many times I sat on a bar stool mew mewing to a freaking underage, you know, a bartender who is much younger than me at an American Legion at 11 o'clock in the morning, you know. Just dumb shit, you know, in the the destructive tendencies and be behaviors that I developed, you know, and it and if it did anybody listening any good to listen to all my dumb behavior and destructive behavior, I'd be more than happy to list it out. But the the more important thing is is, you know, it's very important to break that stigma to it's okay to not be okay, you know. Yeah. I think the you know, my ranger kid, so my son is an army ranger, and the thing they often say is you gotta be comfortable being uncomfortable. Well, you know, you can apply that to this pretty well. You know, it's very uncomfortable to talk about the shit that you have to, but it's in my opinion, it's essential, man. You don't want to hold on to that luggage because it weighs you down. I mean, it it literally almost killed me a few times.

SPEAKER_03 19:50

You're telling me it's not the marking of a hard officer to just keep it inside and destroy your own life.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Those those days are gone, man. There's no glory in that, is what I'm hearing. There is no glory in that. And the thing is, dude, I I don't I don't know your opinions or or whatever, but I considered myself a pretty tough guy at the top of my game. All right. And I have no problems telling anybody, you know, I I was stupid. I did not take care of myself. And I don't think in any way, shape, or form that that makes me or anybody else less of a man.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

Yeah, one of the toughest dudes I know runs the peer counseling team for ATF. And he's legit. I mean, you meet him, you'll be like, this is a bad, this is a bad dude. This dude's cool, like easy to talk to, just a good dude that's done the job legitimately for a long time. And he chose for his career, like he's still an agent, but he's also like, I don't know if it's full time, but like that's what he does. That's what he chose to do with his life is help other people. I think he's had some shootings, I'm not sure, but it's like once you've been through some stuff, you start to realize like, oh, this is actually cumulative. This is gonna pile up on me if I don't get rid of some of it.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

Well, I tell you, man, you you we were talking about the list of names there, and and you know, it's pretty much a Hall of Fame list of names. But when you talk Jay Dobbins got shot on his first under or you know, control by deal. He hadn't even been paid yet and and been shot. And one conversation Jay Dobbins and I have never had, what a pussy a guy who comes in and and tells us how he feels is, you know, those the that stigma is long gone, man. Yeah. You know, we we really, as a profession, the law enforcement really needs to shake that. And to be honest with you, man, with the number of true crime podcasts, and the thing that I really admire about what you're doing is you know, you're bringing this ahead of this didn't exist when I was new, up and coming. You know, yeah, I I think shows like this are essential for folks in police academies and that kind of stuff to be listened, to know. Like, hey, look, this is some of the stuff you're in conversation. And if something doesn't feel right, if you feel off, go talk to somebody about it. Shit, you know, send me an email. I'd be more than happy to listen to what you got and tell you exactly how not to do things because I, like I said, perfect example of I had a great career going and I and I shit the bed through nobody's fault but my own. I just I didn't, I didn't put the emphasis on what you were calling self-care, and that's how it goes, you know.

SPEAKER_03 22:32

Well, to pass the buck a little bit, if I can take some of that weight from you, the generation before us, if I can put myself in the generation with you, I think we're you keep saying you're way older, but we're ballpark. Absolutely, a few years apart. The generation before us, I think valued seniority, hard work. You know, I would, I would leave work and have done my shift on patrol, and I would go home totally normal. I'm sure you did too. Boot up my computer, log into the database. I had a lead on who was doing something. The ATF guys had been in touch with me. You know, I'm getting home at, I'll make up a time, say six o'clock, I'll say four o'clock in the afternoon. I'm getting home and I'm grabbing a bite and I'm spending three, four hours logged in, looking these guys up, putting together my intel. And I was shown value for that, but nobody ever told me the kind of stuff we're saying now, like, hey, you got to take care of you. If you have a life, like you need to have a life. And if you don't, you're gonna implode sooner or later.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Dude, hide insight being 2020, one of the best things I ever heard was from so he was the ATF rack. So I'm a Savannah Chatham Metropolitan Police Department patrolman. I'm just on a special assignment to this task force that was going on, but it was basically. You're feeling like nothing in a room full of special agents and investigators, right? And all this stuff. But the thing is, the rack of the ATF, he called, so it was Toby and I. He called us into his office one day, and I'll never forget it was a Thursday, and he said, Fellas, you're off tomorrow. And we're like, No, no, we got this buy set up. He's like, fellas, you're off tomorrow. And we're like, but GB, you know, we gotta do this. And he's like, listen. He's like, I'm an old man. He's like, I've met a lot of people on their deathbed, and not one of them ever said, Damn, I wish I spent more time at work. Yep. And I was like, Oh, okay, okay, we'll take. So, first of all, we didn't take the day off the next day. Right, right. We didn't go into the office. You were on surveillance or something. Could see us. Yeah, you know, but it was one of those things where, man, looking back on it now, I'm like, ah, damn, that dude, that dude knew what he was talking about. And it also tells me maybe he saw something that I didn't see at the time. You know, because like you said, dude, you get you go in, you put your 10, 12 hours in, then you go home and you're and you can't let it go. You're on the phone, you're talking to CIs, you're setting stuff up. Oh man, I know like my wife could call me at the time and I would ignore the call. My CI would call me, shit. Well, I'm taking that. I'm not missing that. Especially if it was a if it was the right CI. I'm like, shit, I want to hear what he's got to say. Yep. Is that you know, like I said, I was I was so engrossed in what I was doing. That much to my detriment. And man, I mean, the good thing about that is is I had tremendous success. Like you said, you know, I was given so many opportunities because I was producing. The the bad side of that is is you know, I couldn't produce at that level for that long, and and it caught up with me.

SPEAKER_03 25:43

Yeah. And then when you were gone, they filled those shoes. Yeah, nobody, nobody fucking missed me, that's for sure. Yeah, yeah. But but seriously, like if if we run ourselves into the ground, they don't blink to open that hiring space again, right? It's at the end of the day, we're a number and we have to take care of our own, man. And I'd I love that you had some leadership that had the vision to say that, because it's very rare that I've seen that.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

No, it it was awesome him to say I sh, you know, shoulda, woulda, coulda, I should have listened to what he was saying at the time. But now that I see it, like I said, it's important. That's why I love talking to you, talking to other folks about it, so you can impart that wisdom and experience on people. Like I said, I'm I am not the perfect example of, man, this is how you have the best career. I'm actually the opposite. I'm a great example of what not to fucking do to yourself to run yourself into the ground.

SPEAKER_03 26:41

I appreciate you being honest about that, because that's that's a lot. And just to be clear, I don't think either of us are saying be a lazy slug. Because we both know lazy slugs.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

Oh, yeah. Absolutely not. No, no, but I'm I'm talking to everybody, okay? So even the lazy slugs, they gotta take care of themselves too. And lazy slugs, I I gotta be honest with you, man. So, you know, I don't know if you remember Sergeant Mike Robbins, but his uh he was like the super defensive tactics, looked like Chuck Norris. Yeah, scariest dude I've ever met. Now you look at him and you're like, yeah, he's just an old man. Until you see him walk, and then you're like, Yeah, I ain't letting that dude put his hands on me. Yeah, he'll flip you. But he he was my sergeant for a short time, and but most of all, he would come to the academy and and teach these classes, and he would differentiate between cops and career police officers. So cops and CPOs, and cops were guys like you and I, you know, and I hold cops in the highest esteem. And then there are career police officers, they're guys who have different missions. They're not jumping out on corners, they're not uh doing things. There's a role for them. And I don't want to downgrade that at all because it takes all kinds to complete the mission. And I'm not trying to be disparaging to anybody in their career class. You know, there's there's you don't want Kevin Grogan on a traffic scene. Like I would would not put my heart and soul into reconstructing a scumbag I used to be.

SPEAKER_03 28:10

Let me tell you a real scumbag Leo guy maneuver I used to be. I know I know what a scumbag you are now. So yeah, this was bad. This is as long as we're doing true confessions, uh taxi cab confessions. I would put 33 was the code for lunch break. So I would put that on my computer, on my MDT, and I was riding around. And if I saw an I had beat integrity, dude. I'm riding my calls. I took my my pride in myself. Like, hey, I'm a you know, take care of my business. If I saw an accident pop up in my beat, I would hit 33 and go on my lunch break and let somebody else. That's how much I hated accidents. So it's a very two box thing of you to do. It had to be done. It's self-care.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

It was self-care. Yeah, that's a dude. I I would avoid that shit at all times unless it was in my beat. Because, man, uh, you know, like I said, a few years before you showed up, you know, the your beat was your that was everything, man. You know, I I would have graffitied my neighborhood just to make my mark.

SPEAKER_03 29:14

I didn't necessarily have an ideal relationship with the dispatchers and some quite a few of the patrol officers in my area, because we would work nights and I'd be doing stops all night, bro. I mean, 3-4 a.m., that was my honey hole. I was drilling them. The dispatchers wanted to snooze and watch movies. You know, some of the other people wanted to snooze, and I'm like, got one running, northbound, 7-10. They're like, this idiot. Yeah. Nah, dude, I I can absolutely relate. Yeah. You know how that goes. Well, man, if you got anything else you want to add before we knock off?

SPEAKER_00 29:53

Uh you know, just while I'm thinking of it, you know, the thing is it it it brings me great pleasure to, you know, I I've been listening to your show here for the last however long you've been doing this. And it thing is, man, I I really admire and appreciate the fact that you're not afraid to touch all these subjects, and you do it with you do it with a resume. All right. And it the thing that I and I hate saying nice things about you, but in complete candor, you know, I I look at what you've done with your career, you know, where you started and where you are now. And the thing is, you have very tactically put yourself in a situation to take care of not only yourself, but take care of your family, dude. And I I really admire what you've done. You know, I've always appreciated the way you work. Like I said, I I knew in the parking lot of the Chatham County Annex that you were going to be something special. Santoro is going to be something special, you know. That was very clear to anybody who had eyes, but especially people that understood what you would be capable of. And the fact that you've chosen your well-being and your you know, your family's well-being over what used to be the glamorous side of things for us. I have all the admiration in the world for you for that. And I think you're a great example of how to play the game.

SPEAKER_03 31:28

Man, I really appreciate that. Um if I told you that I've never made mistakes or put the job first or neglected myself, I would be the biggest liar in Memphis. But I'm trying to do better. I'm trying to reflect, I'm trying to be self-aware, I'm trying to take control of things. It's easy to let it slip. And, you know, your knowledge passing on and your honesty of like, man, my life would be different. I'm not saying it'd be better, but your career would be going had you not made the choices you had made. And if we get some young guys reflecting and going, man, I can't just like, okay, I saw a dead baby. I can't drink that away. Or I can't just shove that down and act like it didn't happen.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

Yeah, none of none of that stuff ever goes away. And the thing is, it's it's a use of force, it's you know, just the exposure to life, you know, and you you got it, we used to call it the you got the best seat in the front row to the greatest show on earth. Okay. And and I think anybody who wears a badge or rides a fire truck or rides in an ambulance, you you get that front row seat and and that that exposure. You know, I have stories for the rest of my life. I write books, I'm trying to make movies, I'm trying to do all of these things because I do have great stories, but the the best stories are the ones that you and I are telling now about taking care of yourself. You know, you're gonna have the experiences and that, but don't do it at your own cost. And there's so many other guys and girls out here that have the experience that can relate to what new officers are going through or will go through. Okay, and when you see CNN and MSNBC and all these other social media outlets picking apart what police officers do in a split second, you know, all the things with ice and all that kind of stuff that you're seeing in the news, people who have no training or no idea of what's going on are gonna pick that apart. And, you know, I can see where that living under that scrutiny will eat it, people. Well, talk to the people who've been there, talk to the people who can relate to it. But the the key to that is talk to the people. If it's really bugging you, you know, get it out. Sit down with somebody you trust. Like I said, you know, my email, Facebook, Instagram, Black Sheep, White Cop, Savannah Exposed. You know, reach out any way you can if there's anything I can do to help anybody out there who's going through it. You know, like I said, I would love to tell you how to do all the good things I did and share that knowledge with you. And I would love to share you all the things that I did wrong so you don't go and make the same mistakes that I did.

SPEAKER_03 34:17

Yeah. Well, I appreciate that, man. And we're all going to make different mistakes. You know, for one person, it might be one thing. For somebody else, it might be working too much or or running around or whatever you got going on, stealing money. I don't know. People do all kinds of stuff when they get too deep in the game. But guys, just listen to the people that have been there, made mistakes. If you have never had an officer involved shooting, talk to somebody that has to mentally prepare for it. If you've never, you know, all this stuff, just talk to people and be honest. The people that have really done the job will respect you trying to take care of yourself and trying to understand. At the end of the day, you're people call you all day if you're on patrol when they're having the worst day of their life. And you do eight or 12 hours and then you go home and are expected to just turn it off and it's not reality.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

No, and the thing is, like you said, the ones who've been there, the ones who've done it, they're never going to turn you away because they know exactly what it's about. And you know, spotting who's real and who's not real are it's very easy to do. And the thing is, there's a whole community out here of old guys like me who've done what I've done, but if I can't relate to exactly what you're going through, I have enough of a network that I know people who can relate. And Leo here has has that same network, and people involved in our network have a network that we don't have. It's, you know, it they call it a brotherhood and a family and a fraternity when they, you know, when you first join law enforcement, and I I used to agree with that a hundred percent, but there are naysayers mixed in that, but there truly is network and a community of people of all walks of life that can relate to pretty much anything you're going through or may go through or whatever. Just don't the the common denominator there is get it out. Don't, don't, because you're not gonna drink it away. You're not gonna work it out, you're not going to find it. You're not gonna solve the problem by yourself. Yeah. Oh, you're not gonna fight it out, believe me.

SPEAKER_03 36:24

Yeah. And there's, man, there's a lot of cultures, I would say more often than not, where it wouldn't be normal to go talk to a coworker and express your stress that you're dealing with. You might get judged or laughed out. So if that's the case, if that's the culture you're in, find somebody that's not like that. Find a real adult that cares about you.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Yeah. No, and they're out there. They maybe they're not always the easiest to find, but they're out there.

SPEAKER_03 36:49

Yeah, a lot of time it's going to be the quiet person that, you know, they might have been burnt before, and so they keep their mouth shut, but they'll be there for you if you need it.

SPEAKER_00 36:57

Dude, did you ever work with Woody, Sergeant Woodward?

SPEAKER_03 37:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

So he was an old, broke down sergeant in West Chatham when I was running and gunning and doing, you know, thinking I was Superman. And I'm like, yeah, dude, whatever. And, you know, he would sign like a cover sheet or something for me, or or sign my report or whatever. And you know, he'd always just kind of check in with me. And I'm like, this broke old man. Yep. And then I found out who he really was. Yep. Swat sniper, legit. Oh, he it he was he was so much more the man than I ever was, but it was, you know, 15 years before I I was even in the game. He had nothing to flex. No, he didn't have to. He just sat at his desk, didn't bother anybody, didn't want any, didn't need to flex because he knew exactly who he was. It the shortcoming I had was I didn't know who he was, so I didn't pick his brain enough. But man, that that dude, that was a man amongst men. You know, guys like him and Lindsay Ross, there's there's a there's a roster of names that you and I could go through, but they're all resources of people that you can talk to. You just gotta know the right questions or get directed to them. And you know, guys like that, they they seek you out too if they see you. Like I saying, G B man, he he saw what was happening. I don't think he understood the the level of shit I was through.