EP09-He Understands the Assignment: With Expert Rich Creamer

He’s not just a retired Norfolk Police Sergeant with 24 years in gangs, homicide, and the psychological meat grinder of frontline duty. He’s a walking masterclass in what happens when you stop chasing survival and start chasing impact.

Rich Creamer joins Erin for a raw, real talk about thinking traps, peer accountability, and how the new “low” isn’t sleeping in your truck. It’s catching your spiral early and making the damn call. From confronting old identities to dismantling stale protocols, Rich is leading from the scar, not the script.

You’ll hear:

• How catastrophizing and mind-reading show up before your shift even starts
• Why Rich refuses to build cookie-cutter wellness programs
• What it means to truly “see people where they are” without enabling the status quo
• A one-question mindset reframe that just might change your day

This episode isn’t a war story. It’s a blueprint for post-traumatic growth with your boots still on.

THIS EPISODE IS FOR:

• Cops who’ve done the job too long to admit it’s eating them
• Spouses watching their person drift further away every day
• Leaders who know they’re leading from burnout, not clarity
• Anyone who’s carrying shame for the fallout and thinking it’s too late to rebuild

RESOURCES:

• Connect with Rich Creamer via Linkedin.
• Learn more about Blue Cancer Connect Here.

CALLOUT:

If you’ve ever whispered “I’m fine” when you were barely holding it together, this one’s for you.

Hit subscribe. Share it with your crew.
This is what the comeback actually looks like.

Music from #Uppbeat

https://uppbeat.io/t/needmospace/chill-power

License code: QUUZB4TP7STKMLJN

Transcript

EP09: He Understands the Assignment

Erin Maccabee: Some leaders play it safe. Lights, fires where they need to burn. A Navy veteran, a retired Norfolk police Sergeant Rich spent 24 years in the trenches, gang units, homicide scenes, violent crimes, the trauma piled up and like too many in uniform.It almost took him out. 

But instead of staying down, he came back swinging. 

Building. Virginia's first police wellness program that actually worked. This thing included therapy dogs in the station, float tanks, peer support, real resources, because they came from someone who lived the dark side of a job. 

So now as Director of Public Safety Insights at Lighthouse and through his work with Muts with a Mission and Blue Cancer Connect, rich is changing the game on a bigger stage. He's not afraid to say what others won't, and he's living proof you can grow from the hardest hits. This is about what happens when the system breaks you and how you come back and break it back.

So Rich, you know that one of the things I love [00:01:00] about you most is that you are afraid to say the things that everybody wishes they could say. 

Rich Creamer: Right. 

Erin Maccabee: you and I were having a nice conversation before we started

I'm like, well, shit, I should have hit record. So here we are and welcome my friend.

Rich Creamer: you, I'm hard to pin down for, especially for these type of things, but, You know, I've been peer pressured into doing more of this because, just based on some of the stuff that I've been putting out, you know, via articles and stuff like that's really catching people's attention on, a lot of what I have to say.

So I appreciate the opportunity.

Erin Maccabee: truthfully, I feel so blessed that you said yes to me. I know this is your second podcast and, and you know, the cool thing is on this one, this is less of an interview. You are here as my expert because you do your articles, say all the things. They are powerful. They drop that mic every single time.

[00:02:00] one of the things that you and I were discussing prior to getting on here is like we are sick of awareness. We get it. 

Rich Creamer: Yeah. I've been in the game coming up on eight years. I call it the game, but the wellness space or the wellness industry for public safety is what I, call it now, for about eight years. whether it was when I was with the Norfolk Police Department learning and, gathering resources, for the officers there or, in retirement with multiple different things that I'm doing, whether it be Lighthouse or Mutts or Blue Cancer Connect or Survive First or Trauma, bind the badge, or we can keep going. but 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. 

Rich Creamer: that's my passion. if I can't find a fix with one of those I'll move on to, another batch. But like I was saying, I think we all know. I think we've gotten to a point that we all know,what the issues are. I think we all can recognize what the issues are And we're a bit awareness out. and, you know, my [00:03:00] most recent, post or article about taking action. We can dream about having the greatest fucking wellness program, you know, that's ever been built for an agency, all day long. And we can talk about it on these podcasts. we can write about it in articles, we can, you know, to wellness symposiums and go back with vigor and say that we're gonna change the world. But unless we actually take that first step in actually doing, or taking actual action, it's all just, it's all bullshit. 

It's all bullshit.

Erin Maccabee: It's all smoke and mirrors. look what I can do.

Rich Creamer: Yeah. It's all. got this really pretty box to check.

Erin Maccabee: Mm-hmm. 

Rich Creamer: it's become a checkbox. You know, I have the fortune of talking to agencies throughout the country and, you know, when it comes to funding specifically for wellness, it's, I'm waiting on a grant or I'm waiting on this nonprofit, or I'm waiting [00:04:00] for a donor, or I'm waiting for something else. the more we wait to actually put this first, because of what I think a lot of people know is. a lot of good things come out of bad things, right?

So like, I think our agencies, push to start a, peer support program, cism response was built out of, tragedy. 

Erin Maccabee: Right. 

Rich Creamer: an officer involved shooting that of an officer. and here we are. we wait for the bad things to happen.

We're very reactive. I had this conversation with a buddy of mine that, you know, what's the difference when it comes to peer support policing? and if I asked it, it'd be no different on the fire side. It'd be no different on the EMS side.

Well, what's proactive look like? 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. 

Rich Creamer: What's that look like? 

Erin Maccabee: And I think that's the problem, Darren, is we send folks to a 40 hour training course. expect them to come back, be the expert per se,[00:05:00] Yeah. 

Rich Creamer: they wait. having a difficult conversation with a fucking, it's hard to do because we truly care about that,that person, peer work isn't something for the I think a lot of people kind of go into this thinking, well, it's a day gig. if I can get the full-time thing, it'll be a day gig.

You know, I can kind of ride this thing out and I will tell you three years post retirement, the phone doesn't stop because of the connections and the trust that have been built over time. 

think what has happened is people come back, they go to their, training, they start a program, wait for the bad thing to happen. can do so much more on the front end. So much more proactive peer support on the front end. And not all of it has to be conversations. It could be trauma informed policy. it could be sitting down with folks taking the time in a hallway spending 45 seconds with somebody and start that connection right then and there.

But we're [00:06:00] so ingrained in either this thing, well, you know, we're constantly on this doing, doing whatever we gotta do. we claim to be so fucking busy we're really not that important. At the end of the day, none of us are that fucking important that we can't. Kind of lean on one another, in times of need. 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. 

Rich Creamer: adage is, well, call me if you need something.

Erin Maccabee: They're not, gonna call, 

Rich Creamer: you don't give a 

Erin Maccabee: right?

Rich Creamer: because you don't give a 

Erin Maccabee: Mm-hmm.

Right. Well then also you're putting the onus on them and you're to trust that they're gonna call when they actually need something. And we all know that they're not gonna do that because otherwise, 

if they would, we wouldn't be here. People would not be doing the things they're doing to themselves. Marriages wouldn't be ending. there's so much more to that. So trusting that the individual who is in crisis is gonna call is  asinine.

Rich Creamer: that 

Erin Maccabee: Mm-hmm. 

Rich Creamer: many bells and whistles out here nowadays that I think we're, losing the personal connection when it [00:07:00] I think 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. 

Rich Creamer: we're waiting for somebody to tell us that we need to go follow up with somebody. you know, whatever happened to just, you know, I was issued a radio right out the gate as soon as I, graduated the academy. And I feel like I'd never left that thing anywhere, but right next to me. I think a lot of, at least from my standpoint, was being able to listen and be able to listen to the radio and hear what's going on in real time and respond and be present in real time. I think that sends a message. maybe not the agency, but at least my unit at the time. these folks really do give a shit. Like they're coming out the stuff that we wouldn't, respond to, but people react differently to, different events. So just being a face, a familiar face that isn't going to, question anything that you did. just, being the familiar face that, you're used to seeing with the dog or, or, or a couple dogs, you know, [00:08:00] Roman, Roman, the, uh, the, the agency. that's how I approached it. it may not be the best approach, but it worked for us. We upped our volume, in referrals and resources. Almost, double, once we integrated dogs into the, program. you know, there's something to taking the first step as a peer instead of waiting, that can start the conversation.

That can lead to referrals, that can lead to that first step in somebody's journey of getting better. And, if we wait and continuously wait on somebody to call us, or somebody's gonna reach out or we'll wait for that bad thing to happen, or we'll wait for, you know, officer Joe to get the DUI because we all know he is a drunk anyway, but we're too scared to talk to him or firefighter bill or whatever you want to call it.

then when it. does happen, We, fucking, we're like high school kids. we sit in the corner, we fucking point and laugh and fucking giggle and say, Yeah, I knew, I knew so and so was fucked up, but I didn't wanna say anything. 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. Or place in bets. Like what do you think he is gonna get popped? All [00:09:00] right. Like, making a joke out of it and, really what it means is that you are uncomfortable with saying the hard thing, so much so that you're making someone else's suffering a joke. 

Rich Creamer: you know, what over a period of time is, you gotta talk the language, right? So yeah, you may, you may sit and talk shit and be like, ah, he, you know, I knew he was, he was having problems, or I knew he wasn't a hundred percent, or I knew he was, you know, drinking on the job, whatever it may be. But when you put it into, I don't know, a tactical tense, this, you know, a tactical framework and you say, Hey. If you knew Erin was fucked up, you allow Erin to be behind you stacked up getting ready to hit a house, would you talk to Erin about her behavior that, and when you put it in that tense most likely, at least the cops and the firefighters that I talked to, [00:10:00] like, oh, I'm fucking telling, I'm telling them straight up, get the fuck outta the line, blah, blah, blah.

you're a liability. A, B, and C. I said, okay. So you're okay with having that conversation because it's meaningful, because you don't want to get hurt. You don't want something bad to happen based, based on them not being A, hundred percent, but you don't want to have that conversation knowing that backup or that person jumping on the truck is roaming at 50% and yet still. You guys are still going out to these scenes. You guys are still going out to these faults of service that are dangerous with this person or persons that are struggling. But we don't want to have those conversations. But if it comes to a tactical then we'll have a conversation with them.

So what I like to do is I spin it every time. Somebody's well, it's not my fucking business. Well, it is your business. It is your business. Because at the end of the day, those people are the ones responding to you when you need help. Those are the ones responding to your family when they call for help. if they're not a hundred [00:11:00] percent or even 80% and you had the ability to have A, conversation with them, shame on you you don't have to 

Erin Maccabee: Mm-hmm. 

Rich Creamer: You don't have to fucking be a peer. You don't have to be this trained person to be a good person.

Erin Maccabee: Just be a, human being. 

Rich Creamer: that's it. just be able to walk up there and, be like, Hey, I don't know what's you. So if you want to have a conversation, like we're gonna have a conversation right now, we're not, we're going out of service until we figure out what's going on. 

Erin Maccabee: Yep. 

And 

Rich Creamer: most people, don't want to have those conversations, Erin, because they're difficult, 

Erin Maccabee: they're difficult, and I honestly feel like people don't know how to do it because all of the emotion, all of the compassion, so much has been shut off
that it's like I don't even know what to say to this person

Rich Creamer: is you right? mm-hmm. less emotional. 

Erin Maccabee: Right. 

Rich Creamer: on, on, this date, on this I saw this Erin, and I saw this Erin. There's [00:12:00] no disputing that. And it, I'm not coming. 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. 

Rich Creamer: pointing fingers. I'm on this date, on this date, on this date. is, this is, what happened. This is 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. How much do you think though, the avoidance is about people not wanting the finger pointed back at them,

Rich Creamer: to be honest with you. 

Erin Maccabee: right?

Rich Creamer: think, they see somebody and they're Like it's Like our perception and public safety is when you. talk about mental health, you know, I think the perception of mental health is what we get called to, you know, we get called to folks that 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah.

Rich Creamer: literally at wit's end off meds, like worst And then we, we, we do what we do best as cops and firefighters and public safety members. we do the comparison. go, well, I'm fucked up, but I'm not like that. So I'm good, I'm good, I'm good. 

Erin Maccabee: Right. 

Rich Creamer: As long as I'm not like that, I'm not [00:13:00] running down the street butt naked looking for little green people and all that stuff.

I'm good. I'm good. I've got it figured out. 

Erin Maccabee: that, that doesn't mean that all those things aren't going on in your mind,

Rich Creamer: true. 

Erin Maccabee: the things that people can't see, and Yeah. Ugh. but, you right? if I, if I sit there and just be like, ah, I'm not that bad. I'm bad, but I'm not that bad, then I can, I'm 

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rich Creamer: for myself not reaching out, not, seeking help because I'm not that bad yet. goes for those dealing with substance use disorder. know, like we have this look, this, perception in our head of what that looks like because of the responses. You know, we respond to the drunken public. We respond to those high on drugs. we look at them and we compare, we go. Well, it's not me, so I'm not there yet. 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah.

Rich Creamer: And 

Erin Maccabee: Yet, yet is the key word,

Rich Creamer: I'm not there yet. Right? that's the [00:14:00] cycle that perpetuates in this culture is we compare to our peers, we compare to the community. And as long as we fit this picture of what we believe is normal because of the job, then we're good. we chalk it up. That's The job. The job's fucked me up. And you know, as well as I do, Erin, and I'll get on this soap box till I

Erin Maccabee: go for it. 

Rich Creamer: no breath left. But we enter this fucking job fucked up. 

Erin Maccabee: I was just about to bring that up. I was just about to bring that up,

Rich Creamer: we enter this job the adverse childhood experiences. You know, I joked with you And I joke with a couple other people, but it's one of the few tests I've done well on 

Erin Maccabee: right?

Rich Creamer: my ACEs. 

but you know, I I, I never it as a victim thing, you know what I mean?

I always, you know, up where I grew up, you know, it was, you stayed in fight mode. 

Erin Maccabee: Mm-hmm. 

Rich Creamer: there[00:15:00] there was no, flight. You stayed in that's just, that was just the reality of it. what else, what other profession can I stay in fucking fight mode? I'll join the military. 

Erin Maccabee: Right. 

Rich Creamer: So I joined the military and then stayed in fight and then Idid 20 plus years in the police department. Because I 

Erin Maccabee: right? 

Rich Creamer: mode. didn't say it was the healthiest thing, that's the reality of it. so often what I, see and what I hear is, know, the cumulative trauma is what fucked me up And it's like, yeah, I'm, there's no doubt that it had an impact on you. But what about all the stuff you've been hiding? 

Erin Maccabee: Mm-hmm. 

Rich Creamer: about all the stuff that you suppressed for years? What about all the now in retirement and I'm speaking real time experience now, stuff in retirement that you, thought you put away, but because you were running and gunning at 120 miles an hour all the time were busy and taking [00:16:00] extra shifts and taking overtime and all that slows down. and like my buddy Doug talks about so eloquently, he went from, chasing down the,the baddest of the bad to folding fucking towels in his, in his, in his living room. And you catch yourself going, how the, fuck did I get here? Like, how did I go from this to this? And why won't the stuff that I thought I got rid of, why won't that go away? Why is it actually more vivid? Why is it like in real time 90 inch HDTV in my face? And it's because my brain has slowed down. My brain has finally gotten to a point where it's slowing down and all the stuff that I thought I had took care of bubbles up and that it's now what? what? Now what? know, do I sit around and wallow in my fucking self pity and be a victim? No, I don't. I don't, You know, I'm lucky enough to be [00:17:00] educated. I'm lucky enough to have, resources. I'm lucky enough to be able to pick up a phone to anybody in my, you know, we call it the three to five.

I'm sure everybody has heard the three to five. But, you know, we love to expand on those three to five people. But I have those people in my life and for so long I was waiting, I was waiting for Somebody somebody, somebody will figure it out. Somebody will actually catch, catch, me when I fall. And no that it was so, like, I got caught up in the identity of the job. I got caught up in this misbelief of family, this misbelief, the thin blue line, everything, you know, whether it be fucking. The, stickers on the truck or fucking socks or underwear, like I fucking bought into it. did. I fucking totally bought into it and I was trying to fit in because that's the biggest thing in, this culture is if you work hard and, you do the [00:18:00] things you're supposed to do in this culture, then you'll fit in 

Erin Maccabee: And you'll be accepted. 

Rich Creamer: you'll be accepted. 

Erin Maccabee: and it'll fill all those wounds of abandonment and all the other bullshit from childhood.

Yep. Mm-hmm.

Rich Creamer: know, I, need, I, Yep.and, you know, time, I, I, I buried myself in it, 

Erin Maccabee: Mm-hmm. 

Rich Creamer: guise of I'm providing for my family. I have an opportunity to make a little bit more money if I stay a little bit longer to provide. And was doing was 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. 

Rich Creamer: everyth. 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. And, and it is the both, and, and I don't wanna miss this opportunity to highlight something that.

Erin Maccabee: I literally brought tears to my eyes and I text you about it when you were on vacation, and I hope your vacation was wonderful by the way, but I was like, holy shit. I listened to your episode with Hope Beyond the Badge, and it just occurred to me, I'm like, this man listener, listen to this.

[00:19:00] This is so important. This is why. What this guy says, you gotta listen this man single handedly, he and his wife joined forces and changed the trajectory of generations of trauma because there is no reason Rich Creamer should be standing here today doing what he's doing. He should probably be dead on the streets from running his mouth to the wrong person or be in prison based on the life that had been passed to you from generation to generation to generation, and from whatever miracle you got out of there.

I mean, you went to the service And that lit something enough in you for you to say, you know, what I, and whether, and we can call it like, I wanted to stay in fight mode. I wanted to, you know, get paid to just be me. But regardless, it changed the direction of everything. And now, you have this wonderful, supportive wife who you've been with for a hundred years, which

[00:20:00] 25 or something,

Rich Creamer: 27 total. dude. Yeah. she's seen every flavor of you, I'm sure. 

Erin Maccabee: And kicked your ass and said, we're, going a different direction, friend. Yeah.

Erin Maccabee: and what you have taught your family too, it's like what? go ahead. Sorry. I get all excited.

Rich Creamer: wife, probably my biggest fan, when it comes to this stuff. she, like you said, she has seen every flavor rich that you can possibly shake a stick at. But, you know, unfortunately, so did my kids. my wife she'll say it all the time.

You were always there for the kids. You're always there for sports. You're always there for this. You're always there for that. You always put them first. And I do. But was I truly present at the time? And I will tell you, no, I wasn't. I,I was thinking about other things. I was thinking about how the fuck I could figure out how I could get back to work so I didn't have to deal with [00:21:00] home. But because I have to deal with reality when I'm home. reality being a husband and being a father. I could play this fucking, know, pot, the trot fucking cop at work. You know what I mean? that was easy. I got to be me, you know And then I'd have to come home and kind of dial that down, you know? the infamous turn it off when you turn it off and on. But there was no on off. Like II was on, at all 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. 

Rich Creamer: you know, whether 

Erin Maccabee: Mm-hmm. 

Rich Creamer: I'd be in the middle of dinner And I would see something happen and I'd fucking just get up and start running and my wife would be flipping the hell out going, what? because I didn't know how to dial it down. I didn't know how to dial it back. you know, I talked about it a little bit on the hop, beyond the Badge, podcast. But know, I did have that little bit of a guardian angel. around the 12 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. 

Rich Creamer: I had a guy who I don't know what he saw. I don't know, I don't know what it [00:22:00] was, kind of saw me going down the traditional path of a police officer that kind of gets through, you know, goes through patrol, goes through investigations, did some pretty cool shit in gangs, did some pretty cool shit in homicide.

like you can kind of get swallowed whole in those units. and you can slowly be, become That identity, right? That slowly becomes who you are as a person. And I think he saw that and he think he saw, especially when I was in gangs, I think he really saw some level of. I want to use the term hope, but maybe determination in myself to maybe switch things, you know, so he grabbed a hold.

He was like, Hey, grab a hold of my, belt line follow me. And, you know, 12 years of my career are every bit of traditional work hard, play hard, you [00:23:00] know, completely be the asshole because you can use the job as an excuse for being an asshole and all that stuff. 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. 

An outlet. Mm-hmm.

Rich Creamer: and I did, I fucking, I was premier them thinker. not the fucking problem everybody else is. was easy for me 

Erin Maccabee: Sure. 

Rich Creamer: it was easy for me to point fingers because here was a kid that didn't have the easiest didn't have, know, the silver spoon went into the military completely fucking undesignated. And in less than 30 days just to fucking escape home, you know, northern guy in a southern town policing you.

Like, it was so easy for me. to be like, Nope, you are the one that's got the fuck a problem. Not me. 

Erin Maccabee: Mm-hmm. 

Rich Creamer: up, not me. 

Erin Maccabee: yeah. And that's, it's really interesting because Rich, I know that you grew up in a very challenging part of town. and now all of a sudden these people that were probably once your friends. When you were growing up, you are now arresting, [00:24:00] like obviously in a different town, but the same type of people you were saying you're the problem.Like how did that whole thing just flip like that for you and how did you use that to actually change the dynamic of how you help people now? 'cause you have totally seen both sides.

Rich Creamer: but I never, policed it from a standpoint of there was an understanding, there was a mutual understanding. I think in the neighborhoods that I policed in, that I could empathize with where they were in their life because I had been there it wasn't a personal thing. and, you know, I would have conversations with drug dealers and gang bangers and gang leaders. on the street and be like, Hey, look like this isn't personal. this is they gave me a job. This is what I gotta do. And you know, I get it. You gotta feed your kids and you gotta feed your family and you gotta pay bills, but you also are playing the game. And if I catch you, like [00:25:00] that's just what it is. it's not a personal thing. I think I was respected for that. I was respected for having these conversations. 

I was respected for meeting them where they were but still be able to do my job effectively. know what I mean? when that time came where that Gotti and Angel, came out of nowhere and kind of scooped me up, I was trying to figure out who I was I this, you know, this gang guy, or was I rich? Like I kinda lost who Rich was along the way I'll never be rich prior to the service. I'll never be rich prior to. my right hand and swearing in, want to be a better version of Rich. So I think that, that 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. 

Rich Creamer: what started, that trajectory. Like I went to the I pushed a couple of academy classes through, and that gave me a sense of purpose that gave me like, Hey, look, my, my stamp, my thumbprint is on each one of these guys and girls that are going out there and [00:26:00] protecting my friends. And, that, that meant a lot to me So how can I do that on a bigger level? Right? So 

Erin Maccabee: Mm-hmm. 

Rich Creamer: followed that, 

guardian angel to our intel unit. I was an for a couple years. I, made rank because he pushed me to take a test. corporal actually ran the unit as a corporal, which was unheard of at the time. all the while, while I'm in investigations and while, All the way till I'm running this Intel unit, I'm going to school because I'm a cop. And, the only way that I'm gonna fucking fix whatever's going on with me is to educate myself and out what the fuck's wrong with me. 

So that's what I did. 

Erin Maccabee: Oh, you mean don't ask for help. I'll just do it myself.

Rich Creamer: myself. Yeah. 

Erin Maccabee: Right.

Rich Creamer: So what I did was got my bachelor's and got my master's. it was funny because I told my wife at the time, I, had just graduated with my bachelor's in [00:27:00] sociology. And I was like, I'm not going, this ain't for me.

I fucking hate school. is dumb. this is so stupid. And she was like, no. Okay. And then come January, I was signed up and then my master's for counseling. you know, got my master's in counseling, didn't get my licensure, but had a pretty good understanding of mental health just based on that. And 

Erin Maccabee: Why, why would you go through all that and then not get the 

Rich Creamer: I 

Erin Maccabee: license?

Rich Creamer: have the time to put in I to sergeant and, you know, I, was gifted, I was asked to run the peer support unit after one of my buddies, had left, to pursue, his civilian career.

So, I took that opportunity to really take a deep dive and take a hard look at myself and try to figure out what was going on. had the talk therapy. I've met with psychiatrists, I've met with lcs Ws, I've met with my fair share of people. [00:28:00] I continue to, you know, it's not something that, it's a one-off.

this is a journey. I don't think will ever be something that I don't do is be able to go get help when I'm at my lowest, but my new low is a little bit different than my old low, you know, like my old low. I would wait. I, 

Erin Maccabee: Probably pretty glamorous. 

Rich Creamer: yes, you know, my old low would I sleeping in my truck? Or, you know, why haven't I seen my wife and my kids in a couple days? You know, that was the old 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah.

Rich Creamer: the new low. like, I can sense it, I can feel it I need to make a call and I need to set up an appointment and, you know, get whatever's bothering me out of me. And It took a long fucking time to get to that point, Erin. and that's why I say we can't wait any longer for people to We've got 

Erin Maccabee: Nope. 

Rich Creamer: we've got to be willing to have the tough conversations with folks. the thing that, got that, got an angel of mine. Never once fucking judged anything about me, [00:29:00] never talked about any of my behavior. didn't like, it was no judgment. It was like, Hey, you're off course. Let's get you. back on this fucking train. It's right this ship. and you know, no judgment. I'm here with you. I'm on the journey with you.

And this is somebody that I meet still to this day, once a month for breakfast. And we talk about stuff going on in our personal lives. We talk about family. we find time to maintain that, that friendship and that connection. you know, and 

Erin Maccabee: That's incredible. 

Rich Creamer: so long. he had no idea how much of an impact he had on me. because we never talked about it. It was just, Hey, I see you going down this path. I've lost friends, you know, he's lost friends too. The culture, you know, and 

Erin Maccabee: Mm-hmm. 

Rich Creamer: I'll chalk it up as, and you know, for the longest time He had no idea how much he was helping me, you know, pushing me to go back to 

Erin Maccabee: Wow. 

Rich Creamer: pushing me to get promoted, pushing me to take on some [00:30:00] ownership, you know? It finally clicked. It clicked the day. and I talked about it a little bit and I don't want to jump too far ahead 'cause I don't know what you got planned for me what you're gonna tee 

Erin Maccabee: I have no plans. I decided to throw the plans out the window because it's you and you're gonna say something and then we're gonna have to go down that rabbit hole. So go ahead.

Rich Creamer: gotta land the plane because it was still being built while we're applying it. I land it, and it was a rough first year, I, wanna say I had lost four officers, one, including, one of my former recruits that was down in Fletc and 

Erin Maccabee: Hmm. 

Rich Creamer: while he was down in Fletc, off, off duty. But, you know, helping the families, helping folks out. And, I felt a renewed sense of purpose. 

Right? A renewed sense of purpose. and, you know, we had a active shooter incident in Virginia [00:31:00] Beach. and our unit helped out with that and was there for three days doing debriefs and just being there for folks and stuff like that. And leading up to that, Had some symptoms that I didn't know were symptoms. I chalked it up to 

Erin Maccabee: Like what can you share?

Rich Creamer: So like, yeah, so mean, it's gross and I'm gonna gross but I couldn't 

Erin Maccabee: Gross for who? You know who my listeners are, right? 

Rich Creamer: keep anything down. I couldn't keep anything write out the shoot and I chalked it up to, to just stress.

It was a you know, a stressful time managing all this, on other people's shit And, doing what guys do. Just chalking it up to something else and complaining about it. and my wife finally had enough of it and made me an appointment because that's the only way I go to the doctor. And, I had an ultrasound done to my abdomen. And after the last day [00:32:00] of the debriefs, I'll never forget it, I got a call from my PCP, me that I Had renal cell carcinoma and told me that all these ologists were going to be calling me the schedule and all this stuff. that's when reality smacked me in the mouth. so here was this guy who, lived And breathed hunting, the baddest of the bad doing all the fucking cool work.

And, you know, I was always the guy that brought their lunch or was working out, you know, just if you looked at me, you were like, ah, this isn't making fucking sense. So I had a lot of those talks. you know, it hit me like a ton of bricks, a lot of mortality. it was bad. Like they, said it was stage three just based on the size of the tumor in my kidney. And I, uh. I lost it, Like that was like, I had lost my dad. I had lost people in my life. And for the [00:33:00] most part stayed very stoic. You know, those moments where I would, you know, I'd be reminded of those people whether it be in my car or in the shower or wherever it was away from public view. Right. We would have those tender moments. but I couldn't shut it off, Erin. like, it was bad. Like my reaction to a cancer diagnosis. You would've thought I had lost one of my children 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. But that is actually how it's supposed to be. You're supposed to have those reactions and think about all of the what ifs and, and mourn and grieve and process. I mean, that is exactly how it's supposed to be, but in this culture especially, we think, oh, no, like,It goes back to that comparison.Well, I'm not as bad as that guy.And it's like, are you shitting me? How much worse could it get? Like, this is bad and you can [00:34:00] get through this in whatever capacity, but you have to surrender to the fact that this is. a challenging thing to go through and it's gonna require a you to surrender to let people help you 
because I don't care how smart you are and how many books you've read in college, like you don't know how to treat something like this.
And sheer willpower alone is not gonna be the thing. Sowhat a humbling experience.

Rich Creamer: Oh, 

Erin Maccabee: Wow. 

Rich Creamer: if I timeframe on it, like I long time, it was the time where, you know, I'd kind of. Shifted behaviors and kind of changed the person I was within the agency. But I think that the real incident was the cancer diagnosis and from that, but being the helper, right?

So I was the helper, I was the guy. the phone doesn't stop. I was the guy for a long time. I noticed [00:35:00] was, I started to disassociate from people within the agency. I, made, it very clear that this was not getting that didn't need to know. 
Uh, it was very, 

Erin Maccabee: Why

Rich Creamer: just didn't want 

Erin Maccabee: you wanna look weak,

Rich Creamer: Yeah. 

Erin Maccabee: Fragile, 

Rich Creamer: whatever you wanna call did not, well, I potty, the GoFundMe. I didn't want the fucking t-shirt. I didn't want all the bullshit. What I wanted to do was the fucking thing outta me and figure out a plan on how I could get back to work. And that was my mindset. and, you know, after I was diagnosed, 30 days later, they cut my fucking, my kidney out, my adrenal glands on the left side, everything out. And I think I was outta work for three weeks and I was back to fucking helping people. So I was literally, I literally had phone calls while in the hospital getting people help that they needed, because I just [00:36:00] refused to fucking to let it go.

Yeah, this is a, this is a speed bump. You know, this is nothing but a speed bump. I'll get through it, but it's not gonna stop me from helping other people. call me dumb, call me, whatever. But that's just the way I'm built. you know, I really put other people before me. maybe that's my problem too. I'm still working on that. but at the same time, like when I tell this story now, you know, God knows how many fucking text messages I, got after, telling that story. on the last podcast. No one knew.They just 

Erin Maccabee: I was on vacation for a couple weeks.

Rich Creamer: and here I 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. 

Rich Creamer: you know, every, couple months having to go get scans done and, 
know, the whole thing for five plus years. and here we are, six years post-surgery, still clear scans. So we're still good.

We're still good, we're still healthy. But that came with a huge toll. it [00:37:00] with a huge toll. it came tell your kids that this is what you got going on. luckily for me, to your point and we'll kind of revert back a little bit to the family dynamic, guess I was doing a lot of things that mirrored how to be in adversity, but I wasn't practicing them.but, 

Erin Maccabee: You just, yes. You keep taking the words outta my mouth, dude.

Rich Creamer: that point, on my kids. after I had told them what was going on with me, I remember, 'cause my oldest, we had a little bit of a cancer scare with him, a couple years before. he had a real nasty bone tumor in his tibia 

Erin Maccabee: and, Wow. 

Rich Creamer: it came, back benign. Like he was good to go. A ended up running college, cross country and, all that stuff. So but his mindset when they were talking about the C word was [00:38:00] it's no big deal. we'll get through this, we'll get through this together. and this was, I think he was like 13 years old at the time. 13, maybe 12. 

Erin Maccabee: How do you think he got like that? How do you think he went to that space?

Rich Creamer: like I said, I mimicked a of stuff or,a sense of resilience, you know, they would hear me talking to folks or whatever it was. whether I, was modeling it without modeling it, actually, I don't know. But when I told my oldest, about the cancer diagnosis and, with the water faucets going, he looked at me deadpan, what? I don't know what you're crying for, 'cause you're gonna beat it. And it Changed everything. the, whole trajectory of how I looked at. I went, I fell into this victim, right?

I fell into this victim mentality, Like, how could this be me? this can't be, I'm too young. this is an old person's disease. 

[00:39:00] You know? I take care of 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah, but Rich, that's all part of it. It's all part of it we're bartering, we're experiencing grief. We're going through the stages of grief. 

We're in denial. We're bartering, we're trying to make sense of it. Our brains can only handle so much. And your brain was already full of shit that it didn't need to be handling. And what, Wow. Well, yeah, I mean, me too, but what I think is just so brilliant is the confidence that your kid had that was like, yeah dad, hey this is something that we're gonna get through and I'm so thrilled that you touched on all of this because that is one of my biggest things and I have a lot of friends who are in advocacy in doing this work.

And one of the things I'm constantly preaching and I'm speaking for myself too, is like, how in the hell do you think you're gonna be able to keep convincing people that wellness is the way that there is another way out? If you yourself are preaching it and not doing it, you don't think that you [00:40:00] should go talk to a therapist? Are you new to the things in your brain? 'cause I am not. Or like, could you imagine the impact that you can make if you being who you are, does these things and then shares that you do these things, people will be like, oh well. If that person's doing it, then well shit I'll it's cool, it's cool to go to therapy or it's cool to go your annual physical.

Rich Creamer: just Like I'm actually being tested in the fall for, you know, full on TBI type thing that you chalk up to, being young and dumb and totally not paying attention to the shit that you were doing back in the day.

And, you know, 20 years later, you're starting to see symptoms of TBI type stuff. And you're like, what the fuck? Like, where did this come from? You know? And, and I 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah.

Rich Creamer: able, finally being able, to slow down Erin. Like finally being [00:41:00] able of go, holy shit. Like looking back and going, man, I, had a fucking great ride, but it came with a lot of fucking shit. How do I stop taking that shit and unpacking it and leaving it behind and moving forward. that's what I've done 

Erin Maccabee: Right. 

Rich Creamer: couple years is starting to not just okay, I went and we talked about this and I feel better, but truly taking that deep dive, like not just the cumulative trauma of the job, but like, the military stuff or the childhood stuff. Like really taking 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. 

Rich Creamer: dive and really extracting a lot of that shit and leaving it all it's doing is just causing the individual more stress and more anxiety and more symptoms, more symptomology, right? So you know, and how do we treat it?

We treat it the only way we know how, whether it be drinking or risky behavior or anything else. instead of doing all the things that we're told normal because of [00:42:00] the job. step out of your fucking comfort zone and be a little bit vulnerable. I'm not asking your listeners to come into this thing, completely arms wide open. You know, 

Erin Maccabee: Well, why not? I'm kidding.

Rich Creamer: I, I'm saying this. We talked about So if I'm like this, if I go through life like this and this is the way I went through life for a long, long, 

Erin Maccabee: up, 

Rich Creamer: Erin would say something, I'd throw a jab. I'm good, I'm good. and I would keep you at bay with just the jab, with, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good.

Until finally you stop asking, right? Finally, somebody comes into your life and says something, or shares something that you resonate with, they come down about this much and then we start having a conversation and slowly what happens? 

Erin Maccabee: Yep.

Rich Creamer: The God comes down and you become that vulnerable person, and you had now have with somebody that you can to your point, [00:43:00] if this person has done A, B, and C has dealt with A, B, and C and is doing the things that are helping them along the way, can't I? Why, 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. 

Rich Creamer: I take that journey as well? 

Erin Maccabee: yep. I love that. and thankfully I have this on video too, so I can show your presentation with your Dukes being up and all of that, and the thing is when we are active in this work and in life in general, and this is not just for public safety or military or whatever, this is for humans in general.

And when we are so bogged down with the way that our life looks and it's busy and it's interruptive and there's chaos and there's conflict and there's, it's just constant go, go, go, go, go adrenaline. we're not noticing the other shit. We're just not noticing it. It is muted. And so when we pull, 

Rich Creamer: though. 

Erin Maccabee: right, but when we pull it, all that stuff out and everything that's always been there starts coming to the surface.

It is our responsibility to [00:44:00] say, it's possible that this was going on this whole time and now I'm really noticing it. And so I better get in line to do something about it. and uh, you know, it makes me think like, and I, I'm clearly not a doctor or anything, but I'm like, I wonder how much of this, childhood adversity and the military and your law enforcement career, like, is it possible that all of this stuff manifests in these ailments in our body because we just refuse to look at our whole body 

As a vessel, like our body and mind are a gigantic tool. And if one's not operating at full capacity, how can we believe that we're not gonna become unwell in other areas of our body? And that's, listen, this is just like me thinking out loud, but it's the way that you handled it the way and, and there, you know, I, I love you and I think that you did a great job at doing the best you could in getting through your treatment and still there was still a certain [00:45:00] level of like, I'm gonna go help others and pretend and a little bit of way that there's still a little bit of denial there and that's okay.

Sometimes we gotta do what we gotta do to get through hard things. because there was still that awareness of, alright. Clearly this is a much bigger conversation and clearly I can use this as a tool to help others. Now, it might have taken you a few more years to be, to go into spaces where you could talk about this stuff freely, but nonetheless, you've used that as a tool to, to be that interruption to people's fears is what it is.

I do wanna touch on this because I obviously met you at FOP Wellness Summit and sat in on the presentation with you and Vicki you're both incredible people and there's so much , being able to go around and sharing about that. And can you touch a little bit on Blue Cancer Connect and what your involvement is with them?

Because I feel like

[00:46:00] don't know what's even exists, you know?

Rich Creamer: time know, became synonymous, right. You know, cancer screenings were something that just the fire agencies were doing. you know, unfortunately Vicki had lost her husband to cancer and she found blue cancer connect as her way keeping his memory alive and doing it with such a 

Erin Maccabee: Healing. Yeah. 

Rich Creamer: and, you know, her one day and told her my story and she was in tears. I would be a liar if I didn't have some in mind. And you know, I,I think we connected on a different type of level. you know, I sit on the board for them, but I also, for peers that are dealing with folks with cancer diagnosis, you know, that's a whole different ball game. it's cool that you wanna come over and cut my grass or do a meal train or do a GoFundMe. But I will tell you [00:47:00] the best thing for me while I was going through things was just having people be present. Whether it be sitting with me in my living room, picking me up, getting me outta the house, going on a drive, grabbing lunch out, just getting me out of this thought pattern. That worst case scenario was going to happen. you know, we developed a curriculum on that. you know, I think I'm gonna be in LA. a couple months, LA County Sheriff's Office kind of dropping, that curriculum, with their peer team. And, you know, if it goes somewhere, great.

If it doesn't, you know, it, it's, it's available. you know, as folks get diagnosed and as they're kind of directed towards, blue cancer,we're there to help with second opinions, you know, some financial stuff, but more so just being a peer, just being there for 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. 

Rich Creamer: pick up the phone and be like, Hey, I'm having a fucking, I'm having a day. can you, can you, talk to me? [00:48:00] And just being there for those folks that are dealing with their diagnosis is something that, you know, I'm blessed that she would even think to,to put me on her team. it's pretty cool. It's, definitely, definitely one of them. Definitely one of them, organizations that are under the radar until you need it. we're trying to bring that to the forefront. You know, we're trying to don't wait till you need it. get the screenings, get your annual physicals, do the things you need to do preventative proactively. and you'd be surprised that, you know, early detection, obviously god knows how long I had this thing in me, like I really couldn't tell you because, you know, even though I was going to, we had annual physicals, all my blood work and that's what was the worst thing Erin was, I had no other symptoms besides poop, you know, what I mean? 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. 

Rich Creamer: my, blood box is, everything else was showing that I was just a normal 40. Yeah, 42 at the time when I was diagnosed. So NN normal, healthy, 42-year-old man. And n next thing You [00:49:00] know, I've got stage three renal cell carcinoma a grapefruit size,tumor on my kidney. So it's crazy. but I chalk it up to, it's the life that's been chosen for me, Erin, you know, like, it, didn't have adversity. And it's funny 'cause I have tattoo here on my, neck, in my head. It was one of the first things I got when I retired. And everyone's like, oh, what's a what's it say?

It's in Gaelic. 

Erin Maccabee: but I got it as a reminder that without suffering, there's no growth is basically what it means. and I look back everything that I've ever been through, everything from childhood, all the way till fucking yesterday, Erin and I wouldn't be the person that I am today.

Rich Creamer: I wouldn't be able to help. The people that I've helped along the way. I wouldn't be able to have these conversations. I wouldn't be able to write the things thatthat [00:50:00] I'm able to write wouldn't be able to be in the space that I'm in if those things didn't happen. so 

Erin Maccabee: Absolutely. 

Rich Creamer: at it as, an opportunity. I look at it as an opportunity to get that 1% better every day and 

Erin Maccabee: Mm-hmm. 

Rich Creamer: me. you're gonna get asshole rich from and that it's not a pleasant experience when you get asshole rich, but with asshole rich, you know, says he's an asshole, but he's got one of the biggest hots in the world. And there's some truth to that. there's some truth to that because sometimes being an asshole is what people need. 

Erin Maccabee: Mm-hmm. 

Rich Creamer: another issue with peer work is. know, we want to try to guide conversation softly, and this isn't a fucking culture where you guide the conversation softly. gotta meet people where they're at and you gotta tell them, Hey, unfuck, yourself. unfuck, unfuck yourself. 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. But that to me, that's [00:51:00] not an assholento like, to me, that's not being an asshole.

Rich Creamer: those 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. 

Rich Creamer: Well, 

Erin Maccabee: Right. 

Rich Creamer: that 

Erin Maccabee: I know, but

Rich Creamer: those me though, Erin, but was the blamer. Everybody else's the problem, not me, 

Erin Maccabee: mm-hmm. 

Rich Creamer: else. 

Erin Maccabee: Except for you're the common denominator in all of these problems. So that's interesting. How'd that happen? How'd you get there? 

Right. I mean, I don't know. I guess it's because I am so blunt, direct, and interruptive, like my biggest line to my clients that they're throwing 
bullshit is cool story, bro.nLike, this has been like this forever. How long are we gonna do this? And that's one of the reasons I love working with you all. and yes, I would not say talk to everybody like that. I read the room, but I guess it's kind of like, 

Erin Maccabee: this is life or death. And so if it causes you to have to be that loving asshole interruption then that's what it's gonna take.

Because you know, it's coming from a place of. 

I've been there. I've, I see what could happen. And we don't have time to mess around with [00:52:00] kid gloves, so

Okay. We will give it you the, a whole name, but

Rich Creamer: At the end of the the friend than the friendship. 

Erin Maccabee: mm-hmm. Yes. Quote card.I love it. 

Rich Creamer: what I much the 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. 

Rich Creamer: I,can, you know, not too worried about that. I'm not overly concerned. And it's the same thing with the job. Like when you get the, well, I'm gonna lose my job. Well, you fucking lose your job. I Don't care. Don't care. Don't care about 

Erin Maccabee: Mm-hmm. 

Rich Creamer: I care about you as the person I care about. Uh,you, Icare about, this is impacting everybody around you and if that 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. 

Rich Creamer: makes you walk away from me as,my friend, so fucking be it. But if you're still done my job. 

Erin Maccabee: That's right. 

Yes. I love it. So, rich, can you 

suggest one thing that would be something simple that maybe you do or that you've learned along the way, or that you share [00:53:00] with others that our listener could be doing in real time to kind of like just start the path, move the needle a little bit to healing and what's possible?

Rich Creamer: Yeah. as it sounds, I because we, if we Don't have all the information, we'll fill it in with what we 

Erin Maccabee: Mm-hmm.

Rich Creamer: I think that, that, that, has a lot to do with why we're in this place that we're in with people help getting help, or a mixture of of them both. So, what I found that, helps me when I fall into, you know, I, about a thinking trap earlier, which was them, but like the one that really impacts a lot, what I see a lot of is the catastrophizing thinking trap, right? So, um, constantly, what if, you know, we all know them. The chicken littles of the world, the sky's always 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. 

Rich Creamer: right? we have a tendency of what if right? Well, what if I get help and I get fired? Well, happens? And what if. know, somebody [00:54:00] finds out and what if this occurs and what if I don't get help? And what if this, and it's just a fucking play on that, last word. And it's really, that's the last 

Erin Maccabee: Mm-hmm. 

Rich Creamer: is really focusing on what is happening not what if something happens, but what is happening Like what is be present, you know, be in the present or force yourself to be in the present by actually focusing on what is happening right now. And if you can do that and kind of shift mindset and go, okay, what is happening? Well, I've got this going for me. I've got this going for me. I have this, my family's intact. Food's on the table, everything is good. I can't control, the only thing I can control is my reaction to everything that's going on. That's it. and if I react, then the other people, everybody else wins. I don't react and, and, kind of focus [00:55:00] on what, what is happening around me, less likely to to get all balled up about stuff I have no control over. 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. And that are likely not even gonna happen.

They might, and if they do, then that will become your new is and you'll know how to handle it. You'll handle it. 

Rich Creamer: Right. 

Erin Maccabee: I mean, thank you. I will like 

people will bring tools and I'm like, yeah, that one. But you just brought something I've never even considered or thought of or heard of, so thank you.

I will be using that too. I mean, I had an experience today where I'm like going down the crazy rollercoaster of my mind and thoughts and watched it show up in my body. I'm like, oh my God, I'm having anxiety about this. I haven't had anxiety for months, and it was all about this story. 

So what is, wow, okay.

That is powerful. 

God rich. First of all, I can't thank you enough. I mean, for just trusting. I [00:56:00] know that this isn't your jam. Like you don't want to be in the limelight, and I'm sorry, but there's a lot of us that disagree, and so we're for, we're like forcing you in because it's not about you. It is never been about not now. I mean, there was, I'm sure there was a time in your life, 

but who you are now, it is so forward focused, so people focused, so connected. You're teaching people that you gotta get in there, you gotta make these relationships. Just like you were building relationships on the streets with these people that were in trouble, whether you knew it or not at the time you were, and you might have been their guardian angel and you'll never know.

You know that you said the one thing to one of these guys and they stopped selling drugs,whatever. This is who you are at your core and people believe you when you speak and they believe you because you are genuine. You are kind, you are loving, you are unafraid, you are very courageous. You change the trajectory of generational trauma for a [00:57:00] freaking century.

Like you just were put here for a very specific reason. You were put on this earth. To be this voice, to change the world. And I love that you trusted me enough to say yes to coming on. I know a couple people were like, come on dude, and like sticking their finger in your ribs. But you did. And I value who you are, who, how you show up, your direct loving interruptions that you are because it's so valuable.

And so what I'm taking away from today and passing on to the listener is very much so like this concept of being human, this concept of feeling like you actually don't have to prove anything. And,I heard so much about you saying I needed to do A, B, and C in such a way to prove something that I was trying to heal from my past that was never gonna be proven that way.

Erin Maccabee: because that's what we do as humans, especially as adults, it's like. We [00:58:00] don't know how to fix that. 'cause we can't, we just get to, we get to focus actually on it and heal from it. that, peer work is so much about the relationship. You don't wait until shit hits hit the fan. Youthose relationships so that when shit does hit the fan, people feel like they can actually come to you because they're sure as shit not gonna do it before that they're not.

And it is not a sprint. It is marathon. We are building and developing.

Rich Creamer: it's, not only a 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. 

Rich Creamer: that, that, you know, you're in the mountains and you're, you're dealing with all the elements and everything else, and whatever, something throws at you and you, you persevere and you get through it, and you're able to look the shit that you've been able to through in your life and go, you know what, what else are you gonna throw at me? 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. 

Rich Creamer: What else are you gonna throw at me? Um, bring it because I, I'm that too, 

Erin Maccabee: [00:59:00] Yeah.

Rich Creamer: gonna, uh, hopefully, hopefully, you know, in a spot to where I can either help or whatever you wanna call it, a way else to do the same thing instead of being stuck 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah.

Rich Creamer: because, you know, talk about those thinking traps.

I mean, there was a time where I suffered from pretty much all of 'em, it be thinking that, I was the sole cause of all my problems, whether I was thinking that everybody else, was the sole cause of my problems, I was catastrophizing, whether I was fucking mind reading, which, you know, we do on a daily basis if you  have a significant 

Erin Maccabee: we're all psychic.

Mm-hmm. 

Rich Creamer: you know?

Right. So, with, mind you know, one of the biggest symptoms of that is communication and what happens with no communication in a relationship. 

Erin Maccabee: Uh, complete, complete catastrophe and blow up. Yep. 

Rich Creamer: that 

Erin Maccabee: Right. 

Rich Creamer: [01:00:00] you, so think about somebody who's going to work every fucking day day they leave their house, they pull out of their driveway, the minute they, hit their first street, they're already in three of those thinking traps before they even get to work. So, I mean, you get to work, you're already exhausted. Doesn't matter how much sleep you've gotten, you're on your seventh fucking monster because you're trying to awake. You're eating like shit you can't get outta your own head. 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. 

Yep. 

Rich Creamer: And are, are what are, what are, driving that. 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. that's the, the tricky part. It's this vicious circle. It's like you wanna use the head to get you out of the thing, but it's the same head that got you into the thing, and now you're just trapped. And that's why it's so important to lean on, on peers and outside perspective.

And that's what I see in you. Like you didn't just rebuild yourself, you're dragging the entire system forward with you. [01:01:00] 

You're like, let's go. We don't have time for this shit. And, and, it might feel like you are not, but I guarantee in small, you know, little pockets you have and, and starting with your agency and I will say that Rich is a really valuable resource listener.

I really hope that you take the time to connect with him wherever you can connect with him. Where's the best place for people to connect with you, sir? Not that I wanna put more on your plate, but it's important.

Rich Creamer: a couple different places that, you can find me, but you can definitely find me on 

Erin Maccabee: Hmm. 

Rich Creamer: I'm definitely a, a, a little bit of a, a halfway decent follow, if you get to but you know, I think LinkedIn has been a platform to, to really drive home how I feel about, uh, the current state of this space and moving forward, not taking two steps backward, two steps backward, because we can't afford that.

We can't afford that as a culture. afford, [01:02:00] um, losing steam and we can't afford staying in the same spot and staying stagnant with awareness and and driving awareness and and just resting on the laurels of the shit that we were able to accomplish.Like 

that's great. Like we, I did a lot of cool things. I did a lot of cool things for my agency before I 

Erin Maccabee: Yep. 

Rich Creamer: I wanna do fucking cool things all over the country. I wanna, I wanna sit down with folks and, and, and meet them where they're fuck a, cookie program. Like, let's build a, program for your agency. let's Let's, do that. let's, let's, what what is what is going on in your agency that you need to address? not not what somebody's, best is saying, or, or some some other fucking fly by night. that has a platform that says, you know, you should be doing summersaults in the morning to drive whatever resilience. butlike, let's, keep the fucking foot on the, on the 

Erin Maccabee: [01:03:00] Mm-hmm. 

Rich Creamer: when it, when it comes to this. And, and at the end of the day, like 
it is an individual 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah. 

Rich Creamer: It's an individual decision to want to get help. individual decision to at the person in the mirror and go, I don't like you anymore, and and want to fix it. if we can drive that conversation through lived experience or we can drive that conversation through, anything that I've experienced in my life and at least get somebody to kind of drop their hands for the moment. asking you to do it forever. I'm just asking you to do it in the 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah.

Rich Creamer: and be open. open. to some assemblance of fucking change in your 

Erin Maccabee: Mm-hmm. 

Rich Creamer: You'd be amazed. You'd be fucking amazed at how much life gets a little bit 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah.and be open to one thing. It doesn't have to be all the things. Just one. 

Rich Creamer: No, Just 

Erin Maccabee: Try the isinstead of the if there's your one thing. 

Rich Creamer: yeah. 

Erin Maccabee: Oh God, I could talk to you forever. And I also know that you, you[01:04:00] get to go, it's 1229 and you are supposed to leave at 1230. So,Rich, I mean, gosh, I kind of feel like I'm like some groupie, and I don't mean to sound that way. I just think that you're such a special person in this world 

and I respect you. And it's like I don't have people on here obviously that I don't respect. 'cause that would be weird. 

but I am a big advocate for leaders create other leaders. Leaders are advocate for change, and leaders are not in it for themselves. And that is exactly who you are. You exhibit leaders show how growth can happen through vulnerability, through honesty, through the connection. I mean, you hit on so many different things that are just so valuable about how to actually move the fricking. Needle of this whole entire game, as you call it, that we're playing. 'cause it is, it's a giant game. you have done such a powerful job at how systems can only change when the insiders push the envelope and you're pushing the [01:05:00] envelope and you're not even techn.

I mean, you're still an insider. You always be an insider. But it just looks very different and,and really highlighting this concept of wellness isn't just a side program. Like it is a way of life. It gets to be integrated into your life every single day to, for everyone to, heal. So 

Rich Creamer: the other 

Erin Maccabee: uh, I did. I was just looking for it. 'cause I like pulled it out of your freaking article. I'm like, did he just say this? do you remember exactly how it was worded? 'cause I can't.

Rich Creamer: it, it it has to be woven into the fabric of who you are individually, but also, within the fabric of of your agency. Like, it it can't just be a freestanding fucking side thing that we just do, just to check the box.

Like has to be no different than, Hey, I I gotta go to the range to do my my yearly qualification. I, I've gotta go do defensive tactics, I've gotta do my legal updates. I gotta go [01:06:00] do all these things. I gotta go get on the truck. I gotta go, you know, do this control burn, whatever, whatever it is, right?

So whatever it is within e each portion of this culture, like all the stuff that we put before ourselves and our, own well as, we need to take a step back and go, Hey, we, we gotta do a better job of taking care of. Ourselves and one another. And what leaders should be doing is looking at it as the investment into their people, the return will be fucking amazing.

Like the, the actual return, like community interactions to be different. level of productivity is gonna be different. Like everything will be different if you just put forth the fucking investment into your people that, uh, like it sounds so easy, but there's So many excuses as to why we can't do that.

Well, we can't do that because of this. We can't do that because HR says this. Well, we can't do that because, well, what [01:07:00] exactly? Like, here's my thing. If you're gonna be a leader and you're going to like push the fucking 

Erin Maccabee: Right. 

Rich Creamer: status quo is what causes fucking stagnant. keeps. police agencies, fire agencies, EMS agencies keeps 'em stagnant. find somebody that, celebrates a little bit of fucking innovation and drive that innovation to make some changes, not only for your agency, but in yourself. 

Erin Maccabee: Yeah.nthe leader, have to do it first and then everybody will follow
way. 

Rich Creamer: it should 

Erin Maccabee: It should, 

Rich Creamer: Absolutely. I seen a leader, a or you know, a frontline supervisor basically get told no, no, no, no, no. be able to still do the, things the, betterment of the agency. Absolutely. Can that happen? Yes. Is it more difficult? Yes. 

Erin Maccabee: It. 

Rich Creamer: But you know what? It. pays off in the end because at the end of [01:08:00] the day, it isn't about rich Creamer It isn't about It's about the people that are doing the job every fucking day. 

Erin Maccabee: Yep.

Rich Creamer: And We've lost sight of, that. We've lost sight of, at the end of the day, we're employing that. are carrying a lot of, a lot of baggage. And we we've, we just want them to keep coming keep coming to work. Just, I just need you to come to work. need you here. And finally, what, what's happening now is we're starting to see this younger generation go, you know what? You have nothing in place to help me. I'm gonna move on to another agency that 

Erin Maccabee: Yep. Oh my God. You're gonna, that's like a whole nother, podcast episode. What? You just started, so I'm not even gonna go there. But what I do.

Rich Creamer: That's fine. That's fine.can, we can we can do a. 

Erin Maccabee: Uh, for real, just about that part. Uh, there's so many parts that we could be doing parts on. Yeah. 

Okay. So Rich, thank you so much for taking the time. I, again, value you so much. I think that we have several quote cards. I was looking for the quote that I pulled from [01:09:00] your article. you have so many people that have tagged you and stuff on LinkedIn that I can't even find it.

And it was only like a week ago. So there's that, that's feedback for how much people value your word. But listener, if this episode lit a fire under you, like it did me, please take the time to rate it and review it. If you're not following the show and you're just following because Rich was here, uh, that was smart, but also, hey, follow, you know, just in case there might be something else valuable for you.

and please just send it to a leader in your life who thinks that wellness is optional. Who thinks this is checking a box, who is perhaps ready to get their help themselves? And, still struggling with the idea of, well, I'm the leader and I can't look weak. You know, we really, really need that out there.

And you have been listening to the Flashpoint Podcast where we don't just talk about change because of Rich. We make it burn. We do it, we do it, big. And anyways, I am your coach, Erin, and we've been joined by our powerful expert today, rich Creamer, [01:10:00] and we will gladly check you on the next round. As always, make it a strong day.

We'll see you soon.