Ep 8 - One Grip To Rule Them All

In the land of high school band halls, one question echoes through the ages: Which grip shall rule them all? In this episode, we pit matched against traditional, and Burton against Stevens in a battle for the ages, seeking the one true grip to unite your section. Will chaos continue, or will clarity be finally forged in the fires of rehearsal? Summon your students and join us on this epic quest to unlock the power of the One precious, perfect grip. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:16

Greetings and salutations, friends, and welcome back to the Team East Last Podcast, episode eight. Eight is great. My name is Doug Bush, and today I'm joined by Patricia Eastlast and Zach Shear. And this is the podcast for anyone looking to better themselves in percussion education. Traditional grip versus match. Burton versus Stevens. That's right, folks, you heard me. Mr. Shear, what do you think about traditional versus matched grip for your high school snare line?

SPEAKER_03 0:50

Hands down, Mr. Bush. I am a fan of matched grip. Hands down. Hands down. Now I know, I know we're supposed to stay away from these topics, but we care too much about the listener.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

We care too much about our audience to leave these things alone.

SPEAKER_03 1:07

In all seriousness, um, when I uh got to Kapel as a second-year teacher, um, they played traditional grip. And uh in my interview, actually, uh, for the position, this was something that came up that I was very adamant about. Um, and uh was kind of a like, hey, this, I want to be clear that this is something I believe very strongly in and something that is going to change. So if you hire me, uh that's part of it, you know. Um, and uh saw that change uh happen and was very pleased with the results. And like I said, I've kind of been convinced of this uh ever since. My goal as the percussion director uh for any group I'm standing in front of, it doesn't matter if it's the beginners, percussion ensemble, the drumline, the front ensemble, uh if we're talking about Burton and Stevens later on, uh the thing I am trying to do is make the group sound as good as possible. And I think it's also important to add, uh, if we're if we're being realistic, especially at the high school level, sound as good as possible in as short of an amount of time as possible. Because everybody can sound amazing given an un you know, given forever, okay. It's not about whether we can make the group sound good. It's about can we make the group sound good in the amount of time we have? And how fast can we get that done? And I I just don't think there is any case hot take, okay? I I do not think there is any case to be made that having your snares play traditional grip makes the group sound better faster.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I can remember having the extreme good fortune to teach with this guy named Ralph Hardeman. Don't know if you've ever heard of him. Heard of him, yes, I have. And and he once said while we were teaching, he said, Man, Doug, you know, too many people judge eyes uh or judge music with their eyes and not their ears. Too many people judge music with their eyes and not their ears. And it reminded me of one of our one of our favorite educators, favorite musicians, composers of all time, Mr. Christopher Dean, and and his guide and rules, and he had one that was uh listen with your ears and not your attitude. And again, I I think both those statements reflect exactly my feelings that that coincide with yours. That if sound is the number one priority for your high school snare line, there is no logical case that can be made for why you're doing two different grips, especially a weaker, more challenging grip on what for the majority of people will already be their weaker hand, will create uh a better quality of consistency and sound.

SPEAKER_03 3:54

Mr. Bush, I I think you're you're just leaving out one really important thing here. The the the traditional grip would work perfectly and would be clearly the right choice if we would just all tilt the drums, right? I don't know if you know this, Mr. Bush, but the snare drum can be tilted to match that that uh angle of the left hand and make it more ergonomically perfect and successful. That this is all you need to do.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Yeah, you know, I mean, first thing that comes to mind is is no, it can't. Uh the actual hardware doesn't facilitate tilting the drum in the angle that matches the actual downward direction and forward angle of the left hand. But I would ask you, Mr. Shear, if if it's just that simple, then when you were at Coppel, why didn't we throw traditional and tilt the drums?

unknown 4:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:44

Well, there are several reasons. Like you said, number one, the drum actually cannot tilt at that angle. Uh number two, we're now changing the way the right hand hits the drum. Okay. And uh if the left hand is the weaker of the two for most people and the right hand is the stronger, we've now made the drum further away for the stronger hand. So we've now created another problem of okay, wait, now my stronger hand, the drums further away. So now I have to like really even work more on making sure my hands are balanced. So we're just we're creating a whole any of problems here. Also, I I always thought it was weird to go like, okay, so you so if I'm having my students play traditional grip, typically my snare drummers are gonna be some of my strongest players, at least definitely some of my strongest snare drummers, right? Obviously. Okay, so let's say we have marching band before school. At 7:30 a.m., I'm asking them to come in and play, you know, whatever it is, cheesy poops, backwards off the left with this grip in their left hand, their weaker hand, right? Oh, and by the way, do it perfectly with these five other people and do it over and over and over. Okay, cool. Now, fast forward to after school, they're going into their lesson with Miss Eslos.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

In the same semester.

SPEAKER_03 5:59

Same semester, same day.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Same day, right?

SPEAKER_03 6:01

It's a Tuesday. Okay, 7:30 a.m., backwards off the left, trad. Great. It's gotta be perfect. We're going to contest on Saturday with this grip. Come on, you gotta practice this. Then, same day, eight hours later, they're going into their lesson. I'm asking them to play their Allstate A tude out of the Saron book at like pianissimo on the edge. It's like these like delicate little drags and stuff with matched.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:26

And I'm going, man, are you serious? Like, okay, and then as if that's not enough, then we get to the spring. Okay, now they're playing, you know, whatever it is, white knuckle stroll and pyrophlegathon, and whatever these percussion ensemble pieces are, um, on all these other instruments, and that's all matched. But that kid I'm talking about was one outside center last year, and now he's gonna be in the center of the storyline this year, and I really need him to be playing well. So he's supposed, I guess now he's supposed to keep up that traditional grip skill as well all throughout the spring. Like I just, and even and I mean, hey, there are some kids that can do it. Like there are some kids that can do all that. But again, I come back to the issue of time.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_03 7:10

How much time are they spending just keeping up that skill of traditional grip that doesn't, even if you end up doing it well, it doesn't make the group sound any better.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

Yeah, and correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Sheer, but I believe for the percussion educator, the average percussion educator, there are way more problems in the universe uh of a year even to solve than is time to solve.

SPEAKER_03 7:37

Uh yes, that would be true. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

So uh with the uh addition or the inclusion of traditional grip, and let's say you are going with a tilted snare drum, um I have personally not experienced in all the groups that I have witnessed, either in person or online, seen uh a snare line in which all of the drums are angled exactly the same way.

SPEAKER_03 8:02

Oh my gosh, yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

I mean that has to be a headache, right? Yes to deal with the hardware uh on a daily basis. Um so that's a set of problems to solve.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Right? On top of the difficulty of training one hand to do one technique and the opposite hand to do another technique in all of the players you're asking to do that. I know personally for me, uh dealing with traditional grip often shows up in a lesson standpoint of you know, taking an eighth grade student who's uh high achieving and really excited about being in high school and being in drumline and you know, wanting to be on that snare line and um you know, all the things that come with uh maybe the audition process or the preparation to be in marching bands. I mean, arguably eighth grade to ninth grade is the most challenging transition of any uh grade level switch that they're gonna see uh ever. So you have that on top of the fact that they're being introduced to this new technique so that they can make possibly one of the most uh high achieving sections of your drumline um the very next year. And I have spent so much time, week after week after week, uh trying to help these students understand just the fundamentals of how to hold the stick and how to move the stick when all of that time could have been spent on uh advanced techniques or uh advanced concepts that are actually going to prepare them for the music that they're gonna be asked to play.

SPEAKER_03 9:27

Yeah, 100%. 100%. Um speaking of that transition from eighth to ninth grade, uh what about the transition from high school to what's next? Mr. Bush, aren't we shortchanging our students? Yeah. If we don't give them the opportunity to learn traditional grip for their future in drum core or college marching band?

SPEAKER_02 9:46

Yeah, so um no. Okay. All right. Here, here is how I would say we we've handled it in the past with much success. And that is if you are the rare special student that is going on to March Drum Corps, or perhaps you're you've gotten scholarship at a university somewhere, right? And you're gonna place near there in their traditional, we handle it in lessons with those once every three or four year kids. And I can't remember if it was David or Eliana, but one of them, uh, these are both former students that marched for the Santa Clara Vanguard snare line for many years and won multiple Fred Sanfords. One of them told me, I I forget which year it was, but they were like, there were more people on the Vanguard snare line that played match grip in high school than played traditional grip in high school.

SPEAKER_03 10:31

Oh, you know, I think a good way to to like say that real succinctly is I have never met a student who really needed, maybe not wanted, right? Needed to play traditional grip well, that wasn't also motivated enough to put in the time individually to play traditional grip well.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Yeah, and and along all the stuff we talked about with players guide, and just so consistent with so many of our ideas are here, is that um one step at a time, one thing at a time, and step one is timing. Amen. Step two is sound. So by the time they're a senior, if they have a high, high school level standard of timing and sound, they're ready to make that jump too. You know, mandarins, troopers, blue knights, vanguard, whatever. Uh, and then guess what? All they really have to spend their time on, for the most part, is getting this grip. That's right. And they're not also simultaneously trying to figure out, you know, how to wear a drum or how to track or how to, you know, uh bring their sticks out in the end or any of these other things.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

And more likely they're at an age where they're mature enough and disciplined enough to handle a new technique in a really efficient way.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

And physically grown and mature. I mean, the spine doesn't finish development till what, like 16, 18, something like that, right? You know, so uh physically capable of kind of um doing the weaker grip with the weaker hand as well. I know some of y'all right now are like, these are Texas problems. You know, I do WGI, right? And my kid does traditional grip from the beginning, you know, and uh it looks cool, right? No, it doesn't. Uh uh your high school snare line playing traditional grip does not look cool, right? I I have the good fortune of judging all across the nation. I I it was well over 50 groups this last year. And uh unless you are winning WGI gold every year with what you know, um again, it it it not only does it not look cool, not only does it look bad, but I'll be in the Midwest judging this show. There'll be like 12 groups, different divisions. One of them will play match grip, and within the first 20 seconds of their show, all of the judges can recognize how much more balanced and even the sound on this airline is compared to other groups in that same division immediately. Uh, so again, uh there's nothing wrong with doing it if you want to do it, but you just have to then be honest with yourself that the priority is the look or the aesthetic over the sound. Uh and that you you, you know, that's something that excites you and the students. That's fine. It's your program. You should do what does. But for us, the sound is the priority, and that's why we choose match over traditional.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

And I think it's important, Mr. Bush, you mentioned specifically scholastic, secondary school, high primarily high school drum lines, is what we're talking about. We're talking about high school percussion education, limited amount of time, students who are not music majors. So I think a lot of times in these conversations, our our my mind goes to, well, you're saying it doesn't look cool, but watch this Vanguard video. You know, it's like, okay, wait. That's not what we're talking about. Exactly. That is a completely different thing. I love watching Vanguard play traditional grip. I do think it looks really cool. I also agree with what you just said about the fact that it doesn't look cool. Not because those teachers of those groups you're judging aren't great, not because maybe they might be teaching traditional grip really actually very well, but it it doesn't work in this context. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

Traditional grip for sure looks cool when you see blue coats doing it, or you see the old guard doing it, or you see Vanguard or Boston or Blue Devils, or you see your your pulse or your broken city, or you see your Gad or your Vinny. Man, I some people are not gonna agree with this, but I think some of the coolest traditional grip out there is Karlock. Oh, in the most gnarly fashion, right? Yes. Uh but yeah, Wannekee Middle School, not as much. Okay. So yeah, that's traditional. How about Burton versus Stevens in the front ensemble? We're talking for the vibrphones here. Yeah. How do you feel?

SPEAKER_00 14:45

Um, I feel Burton all the way for Vibrophone. Now, I have my reasons, clearly. Uh coming first of all from a person who has spent a significant quality time using both techniques as a player. I played with Stevens grip, it was my first formal technique I ever learned in high school. Um, I always played a lot of Marimba in high school, um, in college. Uh that was also my primary technique. I really only was introduced to Burton Grip briefly, uh, in a drumline setting, actually, for the first time, but also when learning jazz, vibrophone, um, at school. Um, but a majority of my formalet playing was spent with Stevens Grip. I studied Stevens Grip with Lehard Stevens himself.

SPEAKER_03 15:34

Who uh invented the grip, just to be clear. Yeah, yeah. Stevens named after him.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:38

Um by him after him.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

Uh at his seminar, which was wonderful. Um and very important in my understanding not only of that grip, but my opening up my eyes to learning other different techniques, including traditional grip on snare drum. Um but uh once I graduated and I bought myself a vibone and was playing primarily vibrophone, I decided let's invest some time in Burton grip and see what that's about. And now having spent over a decade or more with both techniques, uh when playing four mallets, I definitely prefer Burton grip, especially when it comes to playing vibraphone. Um, for a number of reasons. One of which uh Burton grip is a fairly simple grip to pick up and go. Um, which, if you think about in uh a marching setting, the types of players who are being put on vibhone most of the time are your younger players. Are your ninth graders, sometimes eighth graders. Uh, but your younger, inexperienced players, players who maybe have come from other instruments like double reads that are playing mallet percussion. Um and I have yet to find in any instance uh an experience in which a student has been learning Stevens grip, and then I show kind of off the cuff because they're struggling, like, hey, check out this grip, check out this Burton grip. Um, that they don't instantly say, Oh, this is way easier, right? Um it's a simpler grip, uh, it's a little bit more firm in the hand, which means that the student is gonna have more power, more control at an earlier stage. Um, so that's from a player standpoint, uh, because I know what the experience as a musician is like. Um, but then it comes down to Mr. Shear, the implements.

SPEAKER_03 17:20

Yeah, I think it comes down, you know, yeah, the implements, like, so uh I sometimes just want to say to people, like, have you held Steven's grip with Rattan mallets? Like, ugh, you know, uh, so and then I I I know sometimes people will go, well, I've alleviated that problem because my vibrophone players are gonna use Stevens grip with birch mallets. And then I think, have you played vibraphone with birch mallets? Like, uh, it just doesn't feel great. And and even if I go like, okay, fine, fine. Let's say birch mallets do feel great with Stevens. Okay, cool. Um, the decision for me again comes back to my primary goal. I want, actually, I feel the obligation, my job, I'm being paid to make this group sound as good as possible in the amount of time we have, right? So that means I gotta pick a grip. Okay. The instruments themselves, to me, dictate very clearly which grip should be used. A vibone is a flat surface. There is no upper and lower manual in terms of like the upper manual being higher, right? It is a flat surface. Um, it often requires dampening. It also, I even though we don't we don't do a lot of that in marching band, but it it often requires dampening, it also uh tends to play parts more that are like more fixed intervals, where I'm gonna like set my mallets at a fourth or a third or a fifth. Uh, and then the other thing that comes into play um is that it also has this thing called a pedal, which which requires me to stand in a specific place. And I know, Mr. Bush, you made some good points about like how the pedal comes into play. If I have to keep my foot on that pedal, what does that mean in terms of my arms and how is that affected by the grip I'm using?

SPEAKER_02 19:16

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's that's always for me is in this quest for playing in time and playing with good sound, the technique is the is the component in which you're communicating the music you're hearing in your mind. And again, with tons of research here and and in tons of other fields, namely athletics, where millions of dollars have been spent on how to pitch a baseball, right? Or throw a football or any of these other things, uh, you know, hit a golf ball, right? The more in sync you can be with your natural physiological biomechanics, like how the body uh uh operates, right? The more successful you're gonna be in communicating, you know, serving this tennis ball, whatever the whatever the thing is. And uh, you know, the old adage, you know, tension anywhere is tension everywhere, everywhere. There you go. And you I will look at these poor vibrophone players with this pedal and this Stevens grip, and their elbows are unironically, I mean, the kid weighs 90 pounds, right? They're 14, and their elbows are half a foot behind their back. Yeah, and you can see the tension in in their chest, in their shoulders, and the base of their neck, and their triceps. I see this uh often on bass drum uh with the top couple bass drummers, too, where we're so obsessed with kind of the the mount angle and the grip with the hand that we're allowing them to stand for hours and hours and hours of practice with all this unnecessary tension in their body that is preventing them from being as successful as they could at what they're trying to say musically.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

For me, uh it comes back to uh the concept of culture and the concept of uh your actions as an educator, especially, your actions speak louder than words. And so if you have in a front ensemble, you know, these various different instruments and you're trying to build a culture where vibrophone is a cool place to be. Uh a vibrophone player isn't uh a player that has failed at achieving uh what they want to in terms of being a marimba player or being on the battery or being in the snare line that this is an important and valuable part of the ensemble, then having a group which everyone uses a technique that is more suited for just marimba is telling those students who play vibhone that uh this is just a stop gap. This is just a moment in time, and your goal is really to just get good enough so you can play marimba. And you're never gonna have a section in the back row or on the sides that have or bring any value to the group.

SPEAKER_03 21:48

Yeah, you know, uh that's I couldn't agree more. I'm applauding. If I could stand up, stand up and applaud, I would. Um the other thing I think that comes into play here is like, okay, wait. So you guys are saying um you should use two different grips in the front ensemble and potentially have a student from year one to year two switching grips if they go from vibes to marimba. But but but you're telling me I I I can't do that in the battery. It's a bad idea in the battery if I have a kid switch from snare to quads and switch grips, because that's something I think we didn't mention in the in the the trad versus matched conversation in the battery. Is it also can be detrimental if you do use traditional grip in the battery? It can be detrimental uh when you're having kids potentially go back and forth between the snare and quads year to year, that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02 22:37

Yeah, not to interrupt you here, Mr. Shear, but like for me personally, I began life as a snare drummer. Yeah, traditional grip, yeah, March Drumcore, traditional grip, taught or was the section leader, traditional grip. Then my age out I'm on bass drum, and I can literally remember the first show. I was on top and my drum got tuned, and and then I was sent off, you know, while the other drums are, and I get in front of a car window and I'm playing eights and bucks, you know, of course, with my right hand, and I'm like, my gosh, I look great. This stroke is, you know, uh the pathway of motion is smooth, consistent. Oh, yeah, I'm hitting right in the center, it's gorgeous. And I turn, I look at my left hand, I'm turning 45 gallons of butter over here. I don't know what my left hand is doing. I mean, it is literally making giant ovals and striking. Physiologically, I felt like I was doing literally the same thing. You know, my whole rudimental existence was conditioned to do two different things simultaneously, right? And oh man, for the next three years, I struggled with my left hand on bass drum.

SPEAKER_03 23:41

Yeah. So see, I think, okay, so you just made the case for why uh traditional grip in the snare line can be detrimental even to other sections. Okay, cool. But wait a minute, like I said, now we're saying in the front ensemble you should use two different grips. And I think the distinction to be made here is we're not saying having more than one grip in the group is the thing to be avoided. I'm not saying the existence of another grip is bad. No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying, again, the goal is for the group to sound as good as possible, as quick as possible. And so if the instrument itself and some other factors that we've discussed, like the students playing the instrument and the music they're going to be playing on that instrument and the way the instrument is physically set up, if all of those factors combine to clearly tell me, if I'm looking at it from an objective point of view, to clearly say, yeah, this other grip will get you what you want faster, then yes, having another grip is the right solution. And I think that's the right solution in the front ensemble is to use Burton grip. So so I'm not just saying, because I've heard people say that. Oh, so you know, switching in the battery is bad, but it's good in the front ensemble, Mr. Shear. You know, and it's like, no, whoever you are that said to me you didn't sound that way. Okay. But um it in Mr. Shear's head. By the way, team eslots at gmail.com. If that was you, please email us. But um I'm not I'm not saying that the existence of two grips is bad. We're saying that we want to do whatever it takes. I don't care if we stand upside down and play with our feet, if it gets the best result, right? So that's why I think the case is clear for Burton grip in the front ensemble um and only one grip for Snears and Quads.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

Yeah, I think a lot of people will argue, especially with the front ensemble too, that they want their students to have experience playing uh Steven's grip so they can play Steven's grip on solos that they might have later in the year.

SPEAKER_03 25:38

See, here's the thing I would say, Miss E. Sloss. No, you're that's not actually Stevens grip. If you're doing it on a vibrophone on metal bars with your arms way back behind you on a flat surface, I would argue, Lee Howard, if you're listening, please email us. But I would say I don't actually think that's what Mr. Stevens intended.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

More harm than good?

SPEAKER_03 25:59

Yeah, like I don't actually think that's actually good Stevens Grip experience.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

And the the thing is, too, uh having taught many, many groups uh with various degrees of experience doing both techniques at the same time, it's not terribly challenging to teach a group uh with both Stevens and Burton grip simultaneously. Uh a lot of the time uh we're not talking about really advanced techniques on either end, um, with either technique, and we're really spending a majority of our time, 90% of our time, on fundamentals. And those fundamentals, because in Stevens Grip, your hands look the same, they move the same way, in Burton Grip, your hands move the same way. Those fundamentals are gonna be the same with both formal technique techniques across the board for so many of the things that they're gonna be asked to play, that uh it's really just being mindful of the individual, like you normally would do if everyone was playing the same technique that you have to watch out for. Um, but it is really fairly easily achievable.

SPEAKER_03 26:58

Yeah, absolutely. And I and the writing is on the wall, I think if we look at the groups you have taught, right? You know, I mean I'm looking at uh like decades at this point of front ensembles that you have taught that have played uh Stevens and Merton at the same time and have played beautifully, not just in my opinion, but in the opinion of all the judges that have been giving you first place at all the things for a very long time. Um, so I I think there's a lot of evidence there, objective evidence, evidence to back that up as well.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

Yeah, I would I would like to think, thank you, by the way. I would like to think that the fact that we utilize a technique for the vibrophone section that is appropriate for that instrument allows me to take that section to a higher level than they would get to if they were using a marimba type technique. Absolutely. For a number of reasons. Because A, it's more achievable on the instrument to do more difficult things, but B also because, like I said earlier, it feeds to the culture being like vibhone is a strong place to be. It just is one of the many tiny little decisions that will help to decide what it's like to be a vibrophone player. Um, and I think that allows us to get it to a higher level than many places that don't do that.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

Yeah, absolutely. Guys, thanks so much for hanging with us today. If you have any questions for the podcast, please send them to teameslos at gmail.com. That's teameslos, t-e-a-m, i-s-l-as at gmail.com. Listen, guys, I love Dave Weckle, Nate Smith, Vinny, Gad, Richard Spaven, George Kolyas, Karlock. I love these guys. They all tune differently, they all set up differently, they all have slightly different grips, but they've all put a lot of thought into what they're doing and why they're doing it. And that's all we're trying to get at here. You need to do what's right for your group. If if that is uh traditional all the way around, traditional on the quads, right? Tilt Marimba, tilt, tilt base three, do it, dude. Do whatever, do whatever you're in. Just take some time to have some thought in it. And we would just wanted to uh you know have a fun podcast here where we shared our thoughts and feelings on the things that have helped lead us to uh the type of sound that we're able to get at Capel. Shout out to all the great percussion companies that support Team E Slass, that's Maypex Majestic Percussion, Remo drumheads, ProMark Sticks and Mallets, Sabian Cymbals, Beetle Percussion, and Lot Riot apparel. If you're looking to level up your drumming using match traditional, traditional with a tilt to the side, match with a tilt forward, French grip, German grip, Polynesian sauce grip, or whatever, you need to pick up a copy of Master Hands, Miss Eslas. Where can these fine listeners grab a copy of Master Hands?

SPEAKER_00 29:47

Um, my favorite website, teameslast.com. Uh Lulu, also uh fantastic stores like Dallas Percussion and Steve Weiss Percussion, and even your local music store.

SPEAKER_02 30:00

That's it, that's it. Hey, don't forget to like, subscribe. And if you can split the SCV 2017 snare break with Stevens Grip, then give us that five-star review. Remember, friends, step one is time, step two is sound, and step three is subscribing to the Team Islos podcast.