Ep. 10 - Drum Set in the Pit? Vibes on the Side? Front Ensemble Setups, Instrumentation & More!

What's the right instrumentation, setup, and strategy for YOUR front ensemble? The team covers the pros and cons of front ensemble instrumentation and setup. Tune in to hear some hot takes on drumset in the pit, learn more about the "business in the front, party in the back" set up, and get ready to set your front ensemble up for success. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Greetings and salutations, friends, and welcome back to the Team Isloss Podcast, episode 10. Double digits, folks. My name is Doug Bush, and today, as always, I'm joined by Patricia Islass and Zach Scheer. And this is the podcast for anyone that is looking to better themselves in percussion education. How should I set up my front ensemble? Where does the xylophone go? Drum set, symphony, chimes, big group, small group from Marching Band or WGI. Oh gosh. Don't worry. We're here today to answer all these questions and more. Miss C Suss, you want to kick it off?

SPEAKER_03 0:52

Sure. Yeah, we wanted to have a moment to talk a little bit about the front ensemble. Uh the cool kids section.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

Um that wasn't a joke, Mr. Bush. I don't know why you're laughing at it.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

I misheard bass line.

SPEAKER_03 1:11

Uh anyway, I was I was so rudely interrupted. Um, we want to talk about uh the setup and the instrumentation.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Yeah, absolutely. Um so I'll first just say that it is really important, uh uh although Mr. Bush clearly disagrees, it is uh it is super important um that we pay attention to the front ensemble and like think critically about these things before it's time to make them happen. Right. This is one um day one's earlier than you think. Day one's earlier than you think it is. So if you want to have one of the worst days of the year, wait until it's time, wait until it's time to go outside for the first time, or wait until all the kids show up to go like, uh yeah, I don't know. Um, should the vibes go in the back or should they be on the side? Or we have all these cables. Let's get ready to plug everything in. Where do the synths go? Like we day one is earlier than you think it is. So that's that's why this is a podcast topic. Okay, so um we're gonna talk about instrumentation and then what kind of setup um you should use for that instrumentation. So uh Miss C Slots, let's talk instrumentation first. We're gonna go down a list of instruments here.

SPEAKER_03 2:22

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Uh first, xylophone.

SPEAKER_03 2:25

Yep, xylophone. Love it.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Should we have it in the front ensemble?

SPEAKER_03 2:29

Um, yes, if you have the numbers to be able to support it.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

Um, if you have a smaller group, I would argue, if possible, to have uh a xylophone mounted even.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

It is a very important sound to use uh for ensemble alignment, front to back, those kinds of things. It's also a very useful instrument if you have a player that maybe you want to gear more towards being a snare drummer, but they're a little bit young, like you know, maybe they're a ninth grader and they uh need to work on their timing, but um are not quite yet ready for some of the choppier things that your snare line is handling, it could be a good spot for that player. Um, so putting them in the front ensemble gives some time to mature a little bit, would be great for that instrument.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Uh I've been told by band directors and judges, Missy Sloss, ooh, we really, I don't know, Mr. Shear, that xylophone. I mean, it's so bright and it's so tinny sounding. And it's so do we really I don't think we need that. Shouldn't everything just have this warm, rich, bathed in reverb? Uh this is how we win BOA, right? With sounds like that, not with that. What is this, a ragtime ensemble? Are you sure we want that timbre?

SPEAKER_03 3:49

Yes, because it is a front ensemble, front ensemble.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_03 3:54

And it is not a snare line or a quad line where everyone's playing the exact same instrument and same part. So you want that depth in the sound, and you're gonna get that by highing having highs and mediums and lows.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Yeah, I totally agree. Um I uh shout out to the great band director Andy Seeley, Hebron High School. Um, when my wife was teaching at a uh one of the feeder schools there. I was in uh one of their, I think they were getting ready to perform an honor band concert. I think they were honor band. Um, and they were like uh warming up or playing like a scale or a tuning chorale kind of thing. And I was sitting there listening, and it sounded beautiful. It sounded like an organ, right? This this band is so good. And I distinctly remember hearing the piccolo come in. Like for some reason, the piccolo player wasn't playing, and then she came in. This girl playing piccolo, like on the she's on the front row, I can see her. And it was like the sound of like the ensemble, like you said, the ensemble as a whole totally shifted and got better. It sounded good before.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Um, but the piccolo entered, and I was like, oh. And in and in that moment, I was like, we will always have xylophones. And I would say those comments that I um tried to trap you with there were actually things that were probably referring to either uh mistakes in the arranging or mistakes in my balance of the ensemble, or maybe a mistake in mallet selection.

SPEAKER_03 5:22

Mallet selection, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:23

It's not the xylophone itself. Okay, cool. Let's go on. Next on the list, chimes.

SPEAKER_03 5:29

Chimes. That is that's a tough one for me because I love having that sound in the ensemble. I love having uh that sonic range of a metallic sound to play with. I also love um it is an instrument that is not terribly complicated, nor does it need to play the whole time. So you have it uh as an opportunity for that specific type of player that um needs that level of music. Uh it could also potentially be integrated into a rack part or something like of that nature. However, it is a very difficult, it is a very needy instrument, and I have not ever been in a scenario where they have used chimes and they have not had technical difficulties at least once, maybe multiple times throughout the year.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

Right.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

Uh I feel like I can envision the chimes moving onto the field and needing to be lifted up because it cannot roll on its own. It's too many times to count. So I feel like for me personally, chimes is probably more a percussion ensemble indoors instrument opposed to an outdoors instrument.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Yeah, blasphemy.

SPEAKER_03 6:37

Yeah, I know. I know I know the C Sloss.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Because I love the sound of chimes. And I love them here, there, and everywhere. On the field, inside, outside, but I know what you I know what you mean. And and it's right, it's so hard to transport things.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

I and I yeah, there is a depth and a weight that is brought with chimes. Yeah, that little matality, which is so incredible. Uh and I also love and as Misty Slash said earlier, I can remember when we used to have chimes, the opportunity it provided for certain students that are not gonna make somebody's like, but our high-functioning students that have worked hard, they're doing their best. It's their junior, senior year, you want them to be part of the ensemble. I think it's great. My arguably most embarrassing moment teaching drum core was Blue Knights 2007. It was our first or second show. I'm helping the front ensemble load onto the cart when we are done, and the chimes begin to tip over. And me weighing maybe 130 pounds, maybe. Uh, but you know, it's drunk core. I've been doing push-ups oh, I got this. In front of the whole audience, I go to brace myself against the chimes. The chimes crush me. I fall over, the chimes fall over in a loud cacao, and the whole audience begins to cheer and laugh and clap. And I can remember being on the bus that night, and this was like when you would first, I don't know, maybe it was like drumcore parking lot.net. No, dude. But you would, these people would do these reviews of shows and we're on there. And it gets like to the blue night review, and it does like the whole review of the show. Oh, blue nights are doing this this year. This is it, and then it gets to the end and it's like, oh man, the Pittek got crushed by the chimes. I've remembered it was. Oh my gosh, dude, it was so I can kind of understand it. Might not nowadays with the electronic inclusion, it might not be most of the time.

SPEAKER_03 8:27

I think you can add that sound to a DTX or your synth or something or mouth station or something.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

So I think what I'm gonna say here is in a perfect world, yes, chimes. Um in the real world. Maybe not. Maybe not. Um and uh okay, maybe some of the same comments here on our next instrument, but but I don't know. I think I I'm I'm gonna differ probably on this. Um what about timpani, Ms. Los?

SPEAKER_03 8:54

Um I'm a little bit on the fence with timpani. Uh I think it is more possible than chimes, uh, but it is a little bit of a diva on the field. It requires a lot of attention.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Diva on the field is what you said. Yes, that's what I said. It is.

SPEAKER_03 9:10

It requires a lot of attention. But I do really love the timpani sound. I do also uh especially if you're doing more of a symphonic orchestral themed show, which you know, there's so many hybrids of modern music and classical music nowadays, it's not as popular, but I feel like that could be a very useful um effect, even within the arrangement for that type of show that could, you know, get you some really good attention for the percussion. Um it's also great for uh developing timpani within your program. Yeah. Because, you know, even though uh you know you might ask all of your students to play timpani for the all-state music, uh potentially for their concert bands, maybe even for their percussion ensembles, very few of them have the opportunity to spend a significant amount of time on timpani. And coming from someone who was a tympanist as a freshman in high school, uh, I am very grateful for that time that I had uh developing those chops because that allowed me to be comfortable when I got into the Wind Symphony and was playing pieces like Hindemus, um, what is the symphonic metamorphosis and music for Prague. I had confidence and experience to be able to handle that and we could play those pieces because of that experience. Um so yeah, I I I love having that instrument as an arranger to write for because again, kind of like the chimes, but even more so, that sonic range is one that we don't often get access to with acoustic instruments, it's more for electronic instrument sound.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 10:40

And it is uh a fun toy to play with.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

What if how do okay? Let's say you have the ability to take timpani out, you have the ability to move them back and forth and all that. You have an arranger that you know can write for it really well. Um, maybe you have some music that you kind of think calls for it. Um do you need the right kid to put on timpani? Can it be just kind of, do you think, you know, pretty much any member of your front ensemble could do it? Or are you looking for a like certain set of skills and personality and that sort of thing?

SPEAKER_03 11:12

I can make either work. I think you could have uh, you know, a student that might be successful playing one of the second or third Maribba parts, uh, move over to play the timpani. And specifically how you write for them could be really effective and challenging for that player, but it's also an opportunity to, if you have a really uh intelligent, really into it student, uh, to showcase them and give them some really difficult, challenging things where they might not fit on the battery, they might not fit on one of the marambas or vibraphones or xylophone. Like this is a a drum that is also melodic. It it it's it's very uh unique in its characteristics. And so if you have a student that fits that vibe, they can be really we've had students before that have been really successful on that instrument before.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Yes. You know, I think it's also an opportunity if you have the right student and the right music, and if you're looking for a way, which we all are, right? If you're looking for a way to set your group apart and you can really showcase a special moment or a series of special moments with a timpanist, that I mean it's few and far between that you actually see someone on timpani like really, really nailing it. And being featured. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_03 12:23

But you always notice it when it happens. Yeah, it's always never don't notice it.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

No, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

When it's good, there's an element of um class, like you know what I mean, or sophistication or something that I nowadays. I mean, back in the days when everyone had it was one thing, but you know, this this kind of ties into maybe the next instrument we're about to talk about. But you have certain instruments that have certain connotations or associations with them. And I think when you roll up on like the Vanguard front ensemble and you still see Timothy, and it's being played at the highest level and it's being arranged at the highest level, there is a there is a concert hall brought to the field, yeah, for lack of a better term, by the feeling uh that is genuine to the music. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Yeah, so that next instrument you mentioned, Mr. Bush, is Glockenspiel, aka Bells.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Um uh no, it's actually drumset.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Oh, ooh, I'm sorry, I skipped one. Or maybe I was just maybe this was a uh a quasi-intentional slip because I'm afraid I'm afraid some of our listeners might disagree with us here. So it's a good time to mention teameslos at gmail.com. Seriously, we're about to talk about drum set in the front ensemble. And if you are like stomping up and down, taking your AirPods and throwing them against the practice room wall as we say this, then please, seriously, we would love, we would love for you to reach out. Okay, Miss E sloss, I'm going to you drum set in the front ensemble.

SPEAKER_03 13:45

I don't love it.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 13:47

I'm not the biggest fan.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

You're gonna have to explain why.

SPEAKER_03 13:50

Well, it's it's difficult. Pitchforks are coming. I know. Uh it's difficult to write drum set in an ensemble where you already have uh an entire battery section that uh is fulfilling certain needs, and you potentially also have rack players who are filling in the gaps of effects and sounds and textures and rhythms. Um, I feel like the the drum set doesn't really have any room. There's not any room left for that voice.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

And and and I think when you watch them, like most, I mean 99% of the time, I'm watching this drum set kid in the front ensemble or drum core or whatever, and it's like, oh, okay, he's playing like a groove. Well, like, I don't really know why.

SPEAKER_03 14:33

This music doesn't really need that.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Nowhere else would we have this groove. Okay, but that's what he's doing. Okay, I've I've I understand. But then like three bars later, he's like playing a woodblock or something, and then he's playing like a splash that could be just played by the rat guy and often sometimes is also both big, but then he's playing these shots with the snares, and it's just like it's almost like a one-man band back there, yeah, but trying to like encompass all the other things that are going on in the ensemble. So it just, yeah, it's like fitting a square peg in a round hole. Yeah, I just um I yeah, I don't, I don't know, I don't quite understand it. Now, Mr. Bush, let me ask you this: has there ever been a time, because I think you would be the one to pick up on this? Like, let's say that this group rolls out and they're doing, you know, I don't know, they're doing a rush show, or they're doing something like that. That's like, okay, the source material obviously had drum set, and it's maybe the drummers will, you know, maybe it's they got a picture of Neil Peart out there, or whatever. I don't know. Yep, yep, yep. Do you think that there's a moment like that that maybe is more of a special thing that does call for drum sets?

SPEAKER_00 15:39

No. Okay, no, absolutely not. Matter of fact, I would point to two opposite examples. I would say 2015 Coppel, where we did an Animals as Leader Show. Yeah. And Matt Garska, I would argue, is amongst uh one of the best drum set artists alive, definitely one of the best progressive metal drummers, not only alive, but to ever do it, right? And uh uh another example I I would justify here in just a second is I can't remember the exact year, but this is when Jeremy Gomez was teaching at Wakeland and uh Nick worked at an arrangement and they did Take Five. Yes, and you know, Gomez is an one of the greatest drum set drummers I've ever seen. Uh and and um Nick's arrangement of Take Five, like taking Morello's literal solo, right, and transcript and arranging it, but that's how it's done. That's how you make the moment special. It is not by bringing this thing from outside and shoving it in. You know, I mean, I don't go to like a metal show and hope to hear some piccolo xylo. Right? Yeah, it's not gonna work, man. And even if it does, if for some reason someone's rolling out accordion at this metal gig or whatever, uh it that's just a gimmick, you know, for the most part. It's very, very rare. Like your Baileflex, like your I play banjo, but I also play jazz at an insanely high level, are so rare and far, you know, in between. And I, you know, when I see these shows that it's kind of like, I got this kid, he's a monster, and I want to show it off. I get that, but as an arranger and an educator, it's kind of reinforcing things that we said here. You know, the role of the battery, and this is a whole further episode, but it it's very fluid, in my opinion, between melodic contributions and rhythmic contributions, and sometimes it's uh pseudo drum set and it's uh supplying pulse and grooves, so that this, that, whatever. But it's it's shifting around, and then you have all the stuff in the front ensemble, and this one singular player, it's like the third wheel, is like always the awkward, like, well, if they're doing this in this moment, then what's the battery doing? Or if they're doing this here there, and so then what you end up with these shows is kind of what you said where like the drum set's not doing much. You know, if it's a WGI thing, they're not doing much, the show stops. I have to listen to a minute of gospel chops for some reason, and then that stops. Yeah. Uh that didn't really seem to have anything to do with what came before or after. You know, then there's like a low fidelity voice sample. Uh, my life is a tree, and then the snares come in or something, right? And and now that the snares are in, the drum set goes back to pseudo-week rack. Like I'm kind of doing some suspended symbol stuff, or maybe I'm, you know, I look like I'm doing a lot, but I'm just keeping eighth notes on the hat or something. So it's a mess, dude. It's a mess logistically, it's a mess arranging, it's a mess teaching. Um, yeah, there's just no home for it in the front ensemble, in my opinion. All right, we have credit it here.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

We have planted our stake on that one. Okay, for better or worse. Um, if you're still with us, we're gonna move on uh to what I was incorrect about before Glockenspiel, Missy Slus.

SPEAKER_03 18:47

Love Glockenspiel. Amen. One of my favorite instruments to include in the front ensemble. Um, I think a couple things of note, make sure that you put a player on that instrument that has decent timing and is uh a fairly stable individual because they're gonna have a lot of control over the timing of your entire front ensemble. Um and I have seen so many times where the Glockenspiel player is a younger player or someone that maybe doesn't have that many chops, that much chops, and we think like, oh, we can kind of hide them on this instrument, but it's such a present sound in the ensemble that they cannot be hidden. You can put them in the back, you can put them on the side, it's gonna affect the sound of everyone. And so I think it's so crucial to put a strong, they don't have to be the most experienced player, but someone who is a stable enough person that their timing is gonna be good because they're gonna affect the timing of everyone around them.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Yeah, and I think the right way to do that if you have a smaller group, or if you're like, I can't spare a kid with good timing to go over there. I don't how do I make that work? I don't have enough kids. Fine. Mount it on something else. Mount it on for your best player, wherever they are. That's fine. Go for it, do that. Um, yeah, so many beautiful, just like beautiful, exquisite, really special moments I can think of in front ensembles that I've either like played in or loved to listen to would not have been created without that Glockenspiel sound. Right. Okay, cool. Um next is uh the mallet station specifically. So we're not referring to just like electronics in general, but specifically the really popular uh Pearl Mallet Station that seems to be used a lot. Uh, are you a fan of that? Do you always want it in your ensembles? What if I can buy that or a or a Marimba? Which one should I buy? What should I do, Miss Easeless?

SPEAKER_03 20:36

Uh, I think it's a cool toy. I don't know that if you have the option of that or another instrument, even if it's a used instrument, that I would go with mallet station first. Having judged a bunch of drumline contests before and see it applied in a number of different programs and different settings, it's very rarely used effectively. Usually the sound isn't loud enough to where it's you can even hear the player, or there's some kind of issue with electronics, or uh the um the the difficulty of what the that student can play isn't really what you would think of conceptually when you first think of getting the instrument. So I would, I would, I would always rather have a real acoustic instrument.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

Absolutely. Yeah. So I think it's like it's the mallet station, it's not a bad thing to have. It can be a cool, yeah, it can be a cool addition. It can be used well, but maybe it's not something that's maybe it's a quite a bit lower on the priority list than it often is placed. Yeah. Um something I've noticed a lot recently, and I but and by recently I say I've noticed a big change in this over the last maybe 10 years, is um I so often now hear uh when we're talking about low end in the front ensemble, I hear concert bass drums being replaced by uh an electronic sample, which is like sounds like you know, Godzilla stomping down into a crater of like, I don't know, it's like this, ooh, you know what I mean? It's like the most, it's like the lowest possible pitch a human can hear, and there's like no attack, it's just like this, oh, right? And uh that I think is kind of what used to be done with concert bass drums, and now it's electronics a lot. Um, so do we even need to reel like wheel those concert bass drums out there anymore? What do you think as an arranger, as a teacher?

SPEAKER_03 22:27

Yes, I think it's a useful instrument in the sound. I think it's a useful thing. It is hard to teach a student how to play a concert bass drum with great technique and in time, being that it is one of the loudest potential instruments on the field, but I think that's important for them to learn. And you know, you might have these rack players that aren't playing a lot of difficult material, and they might feel on the totem pole that they're at the bottom, giving them this kind of responsibility and explaining to them how important it is gives them something to be uh confident in.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Yeah, yeah. And and I I think another reason, and uh Mr. Bush, I know that you kind of mentioned this, um, but uh tuning also. Like I think a lot of times groups might not feel super confident in tuning that, or maybe just don't have time to get to tuning that that drum. Um but if you tune it well, it can be one of the most powerful sounds on the field.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Absolutely. Uh you know, I have the pleasure and privilege of adjudicating a lot now, and there's a lot of smaller groups that don't have these budgets to have these sound designers or have all these electronics or this or that or whatever. And the uh acoustic concert bass drum is still the loudest acoustic instrument on the field, right? I remember this study, uh, it was in a concert, or it was actually an orchestra setting, but at like Fortismo Impact Moments, 65% of the band sound was just the concert bass drum. And I remember I'm sending that to Jimmy to send to Reagan to justify buying a new conservation, right? Is that the head director if it, oh, this is gonna make my top band sound better, right? It's a good um, but yeah, still today, and you know, we we have uh great uh electronics and sound design and everything, but we still roll out with two um and tune them to the best of our ability. And um, yeah, I think that regardless what is coming electronically, there is a uh I feel like Tarantino talking about Kill Bill versus the Matrix right now, where it's like, oh, you see all these CG, Mr. Smith, Aja Smith, right? You know, it doesn't have the same weight and feeling as real stunt actors doing real stunts. And I think there's validity to that, and if anything, just filling up the sound with both, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

You know, yes, absolutely. Yeah. Um, I will also add on the size of the concert based drums, I see a lot of smaller ones, like a like a 34 or a 36. Get a 40.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

Yeah, get a 40. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

Uh it's just not, it's just if we're gonna have it do what it can do, yeah. It needs to be the real thing. It needs to be a 40. Yeah. Um, okay. Uh a topic here that I I love talking about this. Um and uh and I think it makes such a big difference. I think this is this next instrument group is one of the differences between good and great when it comes to how a front ensemble sounds. And that is symbols and the wider world of accessories. And when I say accessories, I'm thinking like mark trees or like uh finger symbols or triangles or like all those percussion ensemble-y type of things. A lot of them are metallic type sounds. Um but Miss Islas, what is your approach to um symbols? Oh, actually, this one's gonna go to Mr. Bush. Sure, sure. Mr. Bush, what is what like when you're thinking about a front ensemble and you're thinking about what symbols uh I need to have for the players, what type of varieties of sounds, what what's your approach to that?

SPEAKER_00 25:56

Yeah, well, I mean, obviously, first and foremost, they're all Sabian. Yeah, yeah, of course, right? But um, I I feel, and I'm I I feel there's a couple things. Number one, um the wider the variety in the symbols, the better. Uh for your for the complexity of the uh depth of the sound that is that is being generated. I'm not a fan of getting like four or five of the exact same size and make a model China, for example. Um, like uh uh that's kind of defeating the purpose. If you know, I go see a Symphony Workstra and they're just all cellos.

SPEAKER_02 26:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

You know, I'm it's kind of defeating purpose. And then I kind of feel uh if you're going for like this mature, if you want this mature, warm, full, complex sound, my my simple advice would be err on the side of larger suspended symbols. Yes, you know, 18 plus uh and then uh for your more effects, your ozones, your chinas, on the medium to smaller. Uh, you know, because you're you're usually you're going to those because you want like something that's with the shots or that's with a higher, you know. Um I if the chinas are all really and the ozones are all really large too, you're not having quite the separation between the two you might like. You know, so like I personally for suspendeds, I like to sit anywhere from the 18 to 20 range, and then for the chinas, it might be more like the 17 to 19 range, does that make or ozones, you know? Um, and then obviously in the front on or on the rack, that's where you got your swish knockers, right? That's where uh one of our favorite uh things to use in the rack we use every year is the alien disc. It's a beautiful uh Sabian product with like um that you can play with the sticks and it has a ton of articulation. Or if man, you smack the thing with the felt of a sizzle, it has a beautifully complex sound that you only get from that. Uh ride symbols are a big deal. Um, you know, that was a trick uh from Paul back in the day. I can remember really, really sticking, you know, um uh and and uh mini hats. We use mini hats and we use many splashes and things like that to uh uh again supplement some of the shots or some of the higher impact moments, right? You know, so um yeah, I don't know, Mr. Shear, how are you feeling?

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Yeah, I think um I'm agreeing with you on a couple things there. Number one, variety. Yeah, uh number two, um exploring uh not just variety within like what we traditionally think of as symbols, but like branching out into like alien disc and things like that. And then I would also add to that, I'm always looking for just like a new color. Yeah, a new color. Like um, I specifically remember adding to the ensemble. Uh I'm trying to get this right if I remember the name. Uh we bought this thing, it was like a it was like a mark tree, like wind chimes, you know. But it it's made by tree works. It was the echo tree, uh-huh. But then it was like the even subset of a subset. It was like the echo tree alternate tuning. Yeah. And I was like, that sounds cool. I think I need that. Right. I definitely need the alternate tuning. So we bought it, it arrived, and I remember, you know, kind of like, you know, uh raking my finger down and like set this thing up, and it was like this, I don't wonder, it's like this like bone crushing, soul creepy, like, ooh, but you know, it was like a mark tree, it was like metallic-y, yeah, but it was like not happy. And it was like, it was this very unique sound, and I was like, oh, we will use that every year. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_03 29:28

I mean, loading up on the accessories is fantastic because for one, there's certain connotations and styles that uh you have in different types of instruments, like your tambourines or your woodblock or your um ratchet, things of that nature that you can use to further drive home whatever the theme of the show is. So you can do that, but then using them in really creative ways and in unexpected ways are also uh very useful tools. And it's stuff that you can add to any player, it doesn't matter whether they're a Marimbist or A rack player or a bell player or even in the battery that is going to set you apart. It's going to make you more memorable.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

Yeah, real quick, you know, I want to shout out Index Percussion, this kind of boutique side percussion company that makes great product and they have a thing called a hard hat. It's not expensive. It's kind of like a really fancy ribbon crasher. But this year, you know, we did uh for our drumline show this year, it was like drum and bass stuff. And so I needed kind of every I was trying to acoustically create all the different synthetic hand clap and snare sounds that you're used to. So we're using ribbon crashers and different tambourines and different uh splashes and stacks, and but this index um hat we just mounted on the uh Glock. Yeah, that was Sanchi, right? Yeah, that was Sanji. And so multiple times you got the center of the pitch, she's got a tambourine in one hand and she's playing back beats on this really cool, uh, unique instrument that no one else has and no one else is using. And as a judge, when you have to sit there and you judge like 45 groups in a row, and you got this kid in the center of the front ensemble just rocking out. I mean, I remember when she would do like the tambourine uh moments, tambourine moments and index moments. I mean, Michelle's worth Kim, like the head band director, just immediately like, oh my gosh, this is my favorite part of the show. Yeah, and it's not by any means the most difficult thing, but it is very unique, and there's not another band that's probably gonna bring these sounds with them, you know.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

Yeah, absolutely. You know, and you said something interesting there, um, which is that that was like a kid that was in the center, right? Like a Marimbus. Is that what you were saying?

SPEAKER_00 31:25

No. She was uh on Glock, she was not in silos. So she was in the center of the front ensemble row two, or oh, okay, she was in the back row.

SPEAKER_03 31:32

And so another argument for having a Glock player with good timing.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Yeah, oh absolutely, yes. Well, and that goes to again, like if you're a listener and you're going, okay, uh, that all sounds great, but I've only got three and a half kids in my front ensemble, right? Like I've got these three, and then there's one that you never know about him. Okay, well, that so um a lot of these things we're talking about, whether it's accessories or mark trees or whatever, or concert bass drums, they don't require, even bells, they don't require a dedicated player. One of the ways to kind of amp up your sound palette um more than the kids you have on the field is to go ahead and have those out there and don't be afraid to have someone step away and go play something else. That's a really, really good thing. Um, I'll give a shout out to Michael Lemish here, real quick. We're talking front ensemble sounds. Um I know you guys have both seen this. He did this thing at Argyle High School, um, where like it got to the point where like every Marimbist had on the end of their keyboard mounted a Pandero.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

Yeah, I think it was the Stanton Moore. Yeah, the Stanton Moore LP.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

Yeah, signature Pandero. Uh a few of like the jingles would be taped up, but some of them were still, you know, um, like active. Yep. Uh and Mike would tune them kind of low, you know, so it's kind of like a almost like a thud, kind of a thum thom. But then he would put a drum set kick mic. Otix D6. Okay, yes, the auttix D6 underneath this pandero. And when you hit that with a magic it was like a magic trick. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 33:03

It was unbelievable. Like, how is that sound coming from that little drum? Yes, it was so cool.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

It's so cool, and it was like it was like a mix between, it wasn't like a concert-based drum, like, oh, but it was like a thumb, like a doom, doom, yeah, yeah. Um yeah, just this really cool sound. It's just an example.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

And it's being played by the Marimba. So so visually, again, as a adjudicator, I'm seeing the kid leave the board, drum some stuff over here. As a judge, these are the easiest comments in the world. Absolutely. Especially as a more battery-oriented guy, too. You're just, yeah, I'm just giving you points for free. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Um okay, what about um actually picking up with my hands? These these things, they have straps.

SPEAKER_03 33:44

I feel like you have opinions about this, Mr. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Again, this is gonna go under my um soapbox of things in the front ensemble that I want back that I feel like are kind of a lost art.

SPEAKER_03 33:54

Let me let me just say really quickly, yes, please. Yes, please uh for the sake of your marching bands and also for the sake of your concert bands.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

Oh my gosh, yes, get some crash symbols on the field. Yes. Okay. Um so now, all right, I listened to this episode and I've got all these instruments out here. Wait, the TV slots podcast, they told me to bring all these out.

unknown 34:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Except the drum set. Except the drum set.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

Okay, so I brought my timpani on and my chimes to see slots, and I've got all these marimbas and bells and uh xylo. Okay, yeah, how do I set all this stuff up? I have seen uh, you know, I saw a guy down the road, he put his vibrophones on the outside, and I think that looks cool because it's symmetrical and the shiny things are on the outside. Okay, great. But then I could also put the vibes in the back. I'm not sure what to do here. Um, I think we kind of agreed that there are three kinds of setups we see a lot. Um one I affectionately refer to as business in the front, party in the back.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

Because I love that.

SPEAKER_01 34:55

That is like, you know, a row of marimbas up front, a row of generally vibes, maybe Xylo in the back. And then what we can talk about where the other stuff goes later on. But that's that's that setup. The other one is the what I call the vibes on the outside setup. And again, this has variations, but it's generally uh a row of marimbas in the front, and then some kind of like maybe pod of vibrophones. Maybe there's like a back row, front row kind of combination thing going on. But the key in that one is that the vibes are split on side one, side two with a lot of yard lines in between them. And then the third one is like right-left, where I've got like vibes on the left, marimbas on the right. Um, or or just split left, right, however you work that out. What is your um, if you have your choice, what's the way you think works best and the way you like to set it up?

SPEAKER_03 35:44

I would say the team slots approved setup. There you go, would be the mullet setup based upon what you said party in the or business in the front. Business in the front party in the back. Yeah. Uh Marimbas in the front row, uh, metals, vibes in the second row, um, having the xylophone bells probably in the center of the second row or in the front row if necessary, um, but preferably in the second row, uh, with the auxiliary instruments, synth, timpani, if there is some on either side one or side two on the outsides, uh preferring only two rows and not three. Um that would be the ideal setup. Uh, the reason for it being when I am in front of the group, I hear uh the ensemble with a stereophonic kind of feel. Uh the similar in a similar manner is if I were going to a percussion ensemble concert, or if I were going to an orchestra concert, uh, or if I were going to just like a show, like a band show. Like you're not gonna see them all uh stacked up in specific groupings, and it's gonna allow for the players to have a better experience in a sense that they can hear similar instruments to what they're playing. Um it definitely affects how I write when I write for groups that are in different setups. Uh I would prefer to have uh the marambas up front, the vibes in the back, and everybody in in rows because um it allows me for me to have more options in terms of how I arrange things. It could be just all a wood voice in which everyone's playing the same thing for marambas, or uh all a metal voice, but it also allows me to integrate those two voices a little bit more, have the vibrophones, maybe play some runs that the marambas are playing at certain points. Not everyone has to do it. Um, but it gives me more options. When they're split up, it makes it a little bit more difficult and have to be really careful with who's playing with what players and not I think I think it doesn't allow for, especially the vibrant players, to get as diverse material.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

Yes, yeah, absolutely. You know, I think there are kind of like three overarching principles here. And one is let's keep like instruments together. Okay. I think if we look to other established ensembles, we look at a symphony orchestra, or we look at, you know, like you said, the setup of the metal band you're gonna go see on Saturday night. Like bass and drums are gonna be standing kind of close to each other. You go see Dave Matthews band or whoever what like bass drums, we're we're sort of close, we're communicating, we're we're a thing. Uh the violins are all together in a symphony orchestra, right? So we're keeping like instruments together. That's number one. Uh number two, I don't want the front ensemble to be any wider than it has to be.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

What the wider front ensembles get, the more timing issues we have.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

And sometimes I see these groups that are just like unnecessarily spread out really wide. Like we've got this row of marimbas, and then we're tacking on vibes on the left and the right. And it's like there's kind of open area in the back. And I'm like, why are we making it harder than number one, we're separating one instrument family, we're separating it. And number two, we're making the group wider than it has to be. We're just inviting issues that don't need to be there. Right. Um, the third one I would say is I want, and this goes to a conversation with your arranger and how you actually place students in the group. I want um the upper and lower level players to also sort of be grouped together, right? So Marimba One, Marimba two are gonna be my center to uh students on the inside. And then right behind them, I want vibe one, vibe two. Right. So, like you said, if I'm writing a run that's really fast and I got my four best players playing it, they're all right there in the center of the group.

SPEAKER_03 39:22

That is to say you have put your some of your best players on the vibe.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

Absolutely, yes, yes, that's so important.

SPEAKER_03 39:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

Um, and that's something that I think is a hallmark of what you do, and it was another reason for this setup.

SPEAKER_03 39:34

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

But um, but also I would say even if you didn't do that, this setup still is not a negative for you.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

No.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

And I would say the other one with vibes on the outside, well, okay, now I've got the negative of I can't have my four best players, let's say I do have vibe one, vibe two, I can't really have them um have a really high percentage and a likelihood that they're gonna play well if it's something really fast and intricate with my center two marimbas because they're spread apart. Um and uh yeah, I'm just I think we're kind of shooting ourselves in the foot with that setup. So I'm with you. Um uh I think that that uh woods in front, metals and back general setup works great. Um now what if we uh are talking about the actual like size of the instruments? Do you have a preference on like am I gonna go on all low A's, low F's, and where do those go in the ensemble?

SPEAKER_03 40:29

Uh I typically like to have like let's say you had five players, right? And they all have you have enough instruments for all five of those players to have their own board. I would typically put the larger instruments, larger marambas on the outside. Um that way it allows for the weaker players, you know, your marimba four, marimba five, potentially, to be more of a bass type part where they could play something that's a little simpler. They don't have to have as many runs, but they can still be really challenged. Um, and they have access to the lower range of the instrument. Your center marimbists, maybe your marimba one and two, maybe even your marimba one, two, and three, are gonna spend more of their time playing faster runs and more articulate parts, which it's gonna most of the time be on the mid to higher end of the instrument anyway. So by putting the larger instruments towards the center of the group, I think you're uh wasting some of those uh octaves on players that aren't gonna use them as much.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

Yeah, absolutely, totally agree. Um, okay, now uh so many people find themselves in situations where uh they do not have 10, 12, 14 kids in the front ensemble. Maybe they have four, right?

SPEAKER_02 41:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:41

Uh and and they want to do what's best for those students and for their program. So let's say you show up at Wanaki Middle School tomorrow, Miss E. Sloss, and you're the director of the Wanaku Middle School. Right. You're the director of the Wanakee Middle School front ensemble. They have four kids.

SPEAKER_03 41:57

If I have four kids, I would probably put two of them on Marimba, two of them on Vibrophone, if I have the instruments for it, and have maybe a pod for auxiliary instruments slash Tam Tam and bass drum, and have those four players spit split the responsibilities of the auxiliary instruments.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

Let me ask you this, Miss C. Slass, as someone that has judged a lot of smaller groups. One of the more popular things to do sometimes is there's two things I'd ask you here. Number one, um maybe I have those four kids, but I also have three other kids, and those three kids are the battery, and I have a snare drum set up in the front ensemble and quads set up in the front ensemble and bases set up, and I'm literally saying like I'm not marching on the field, right? Uh so two things. Number one, I'd like to know kind of your thoughts on that and how you would address it. And then number two, the other popular thing you'll see sometimes with smaller bands is instead of having the front ensemble actually at the front, they'll have these four, five, six kids like you know, on the front hash or the back hash, or so they'll be in the back of the field, right?

SPEAKER_03 42:59

Um, having the battery players in the front ensemble, uh, I think poses some challenges for the band, maybe. Um if you have even if you just had three players and my in a smaller band, it might be better to have those players on the field getting that experience. Um but if you can't do it, then I you know, you do do what you have to do in terms of the setup. Uh but maybe a a two-row system where the battery instruments are in the second row. Uh so you still get that listening experience. But um, yeah, and then in terms of uh the second issue. Wait, what was the second issue?

SPEAKER_00 43:34

Putting the front, you know, if you have a small front ensemble with a small band, putting the front ensemble in the front of the side.

SPEAKER_03 43:38

Oh, yeah, putting them in the back of the field. Um yeah, that also is a little bit tricky because they're stationary and uh you'd have to have a really mindful drill writer that is gonna be uh cautious to the fact that they're the the listening source of the band is gonna be far away sometimes. I don't love that idea either. I would almost rather just have kids on the field and no front ensemble than to try and put them in the front or in the back.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

Yep. And I and I wouldn't say that it doesn't work or that there's not a you know, a never never or whatever, but I do know as an adjudicator, as soon as I see that set up, you know, whether I want to or not, I'm having two thoughts. And the first is like, oh, this is a younger, weaker, more immature group, because that those are the only groups that tend to do that for the most part, whether they are or not, you know, which is a little unfair. And I try to put that bias aside so I hear them play. But then that's where the second thing comes. I almost always have a much harder time hearing them because they're so far away. Yeah. So it's harder to get a genuine read. And because of that, you know, as an adjudicator in general, I always try to give the benefit of the doubt. Everybody is working hard, and there's uh, you know, I'm not trying to tear anyone down here. I want them to have their best. But at the end of the day, if this other group's going out and I can hear them clearly, I I feel like I have to kind of lean the direction of you know of giving them the nod. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 45:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

All right, Missy Sloss, um, you've worked really hard and you've grown your program. Now you have seven kids.

SPEAKER_02 45:16

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 45:17

All right, you got seven students in the front ensemble, which is a situation a lot of our listeners might be in somewhere around there, like a small to medium-sized group. What are you rolling out on the field in that scenario?

SPEAKER_03 45:27

Yeah, I think you have some options then. Uh it kind of comes down to the experience and the skills of the players, but I would definitely have a dedicated auxiliary percussion person in the front ensemble that can cover concern and bass drum, but also can cover uh different variety of symbols and effects. That sound is so important to the entire band that it's it's good if you have that player. Um then I would also probably add another marimba player. So you have three marimbas, two vibes, and maybe a dedicated xylo, or potentially a third vibe and put that xylophone, mount that xylophone on one of your marimbas and mount uh maybe a Glockenspiel on one of the vibe players, give them some double responsibility. Um or you could have like a dedicated xylobell player in the center and uh kind of move it around. I you have some flexibility with seven players, but I definitely would air towards more sounds versus larger sections, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I would say, you know, uh also just kind of from like an arranging and and standpoint, like we're almost approaching the area where we could have like a moment for the woods and a moment for the metals, which I think is there's a breaking point there, right? Like if I have four, my moments are just gonna be that's the pit. Yeah, like we're not going like one, which is another thing, Mr. Bush. Yeah, um, I see a lot on with smaller groups where they like want to feature the pit, but it's like one kid playing, or like maybe two. Yes, yeah. And I'm like, oh, don't do that. Like, let them all, if there's three kids down there, they play together, all three play. Like, let them all play.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

Um, I think it was every anything from 2A to 5A, but there were only a couple 5A's there, right? And I ran into that exact situation you're talking about where there was one front ensemble that had this monster kid that was playing crazy stuff, and the rest of the front ensemble is doing their job, but they're kind of just hanging out. And then I had another group where they're definitely not playing what that one kid played, but collectively the full ensemble was contributing at a higher level, right? And that puts you in an awkward position, you know. And again, for me, everyone has to make up their call, but the the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, right? So I'm gonna lean towards uh, you know, especially when we come from a place like Hop Hill, I put a lot of value in that depth of the program. It's very easy to put your best players up front, and you know, um, that'll bamboozle some people, but not Mr. Bush's eagle eyes. I love it, I love it. Um yeah, one one quick thing.

SPEAKER_03 47:59

Uh if I could stress this, uh please, please, please, if you have two strong keyboard players, split them up between one marimbus and one vibrophone. Yes. Opposed to putting them both on marimba. I know the thought of now I have two marimbists that can play in unison some things that are really tough, and then everyone else can kind of play weaker parts. Um, but that's not gonna make your ensemble, even if they are small, sound very mature. Because it will be very apparent in the arrangement that we only have these two kids. But if you then put one of your players, one of your strong potential marimba players on the vibrophone, they're gonna lift the rest of the vibrophone section if it's one player, two players, three players. Uh, and now you have two sections, two voices that you can do some interesting things with.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, couldn't agree more. Um, okay, another scenario we often find ourselves in with a front ensemble is okay, wait, I got too many kids. And not, and that I don't think that's necessarily like number dependent, right? But it's like maybe they're throwing in some, okay, the double reads are going in there, or the, you know, this girl joined a band last year and she played cello at her last school. We need a place for, okay, put them in the front ensemble, right? Everybody's had varying degrees of this. So you've got, for whatever reason, you've got some quote unquote extra kids. Or and maybe they're percussionists, maybe they're not. But what are your suggestions for people who find themselves in that scenario?

SPEAKER_03 49:22

Yeah, if you're at a big program and you just have the luxury of having a lot of students that are into progression, that's great too. Um, that's when you definitely add your timpani. That's when you can add the mallet station involved. Um, maybe you uh you have your dedicated xylophone player, you have your dedicated Glock player, maybe even a Cratali player. Um it's a smaller instrument that isn't like the chimes that you can add. Um I would avoid having like 10 kids on the rack. First of all, from a ranger standpoint, uh you're a ranger. Well, thank you for not having 10 rack players. That's very challenging and arguably the most time-consuming uh voice to write for of the front ensemble. Um, but I have been in situations where they've doubled up on marimbas. Uh maybe you have some low F marimbas, you can sp have two players on them. I would much rather that over putting one of those players on the rack that gets to play a symbol every 30 measures. Um because you can you can write around two players on one keyboard instrument much easier than you can like having four kids in one spot on a rack.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

Absolutely, absolutely. Um, yeah, and I think you know, what what a great opportunity if you have more kids. Again, if your day one is a lot earlier than uh, or if you're if you're starting day one early enough, this is a great opportunity to try to get more instruments for your program. You know, like uh that's a struggle for a lot of people uh is to get more instruments for their percussionists. I think one of the best ways to advocate for that and to make your case is I have a student with nothing to play. Yeah, and I've look, look, I've already got my mallet station and my cratales and my belt there. I need another fill in the blank, whatever it is, viberphone, marimba, et cetera, et cetera. You know, um, so uh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 51:16

Yep. Awesome, guys. Hey, thanks so much for hanging out with us today, friends, and hearing all about front ensemble selections and setups. If you have any questions for the podcast, send them to teamesloss at gmail.com. That's teameslos, t-e-a-m, i-s-l-as at gmail.com. All drum set questions will be forwarded to Mr. Shear. Shout out to all the great percussion companies that support Team E Sloss, Maypex Majestic Percussion, which make incredible drumsets, by the way. That's the drum set Mr. Bush plays in drumset appropriate environments. Uh, Remo drumheads, ProMark Sticks and Mallet, Sabian symbols, beetle percussion, lot ride apparel. Hey, are you looking for a mallet resource with some great exercises and etudes? Then you need to pick up the method book Momentum. Mr. Shear, where can these fine listeners grab a copy of Momentum?

SPEAKER_01 52:06

Dallas percussion, Steve Weiss music, and any other retailer that sells great percussion material.

SPEAKER_00 52:13

That's it. That's it. Hey, if you're using a Jacob Koyer or a Tigrin chart as your front ensemble lot tune, then don't forget to like, subscribe, and please give us a five-star review. Remember, friends, step one is time, step two is sound, and step three is subscribing to the TV Sloss podcast.