Leading For and With Compassion – Daniel Stane

Why do so many organisations overlook the human cost of their systems? 

In this episode of Beyond Deming, James Lawther speaks with Daniel Stane, founder of Inclusion Partners, about the power of compassionate leadership. They examine how leaders can move beyond transactional management to address the root causes of employee suffering—whether from rigid processes, personal challenges, or cultural norms. Daniel shares actionable insights on building emotional resilience, fostering psychological safety, and designing work environments that prioritise well-being.

 From small acts like checking in on team members to systemic changes like rethinking roles and routines, this conversation offers practical tools for leaders ready to create more inclusive, sustainable cultures. Ideal for managers looking to balance performance with humanity.

Transcript

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James 0:14

Good afternoon and welcome to another episode of Beyond Demi. today I'm talking to Daniel Stein from Inclusion Partners. Hello Daniel.

Daniel 0:21

Hello. Thank you for having me.

James 0:23

My pleasure. Daniel is a expert. I'm not sure if that's the word you choose, in compassionate culture. So maybe before I, fluff my way through that anymore, Daniel, you, explain who you are and what you do.

Daniel 0:33

Thank you, James. I love the fact you've gone straight for culture. Easiest word to utter, hardest thing to work on and develop. But yeah, that's certainly the, the end goal. I would probably say if I have any expertise, it's more experience with guiding leaders, to do some of the hard stuff when it comes to, creating human-centric, inclusive, compassionate cultures.

James 0:53

And how did you get into that, Daniel?

Daniel 0:54

Uh, I started in the world of business, frontline business, management leadership roles, laterally leading a global organization in the, in the nineties for a big multinational. they weren't big on training and I asked for some training 'cause I was leading a lot of people in a lot of different places. but then I did get some really, really helpful input and, the penny dropped that it was much more interesting to be, to stay with that focus on development. so this is now. 25 years I've been working in leadership development. last 10 years or so. launched inclusion partners, uh, which focuses as the name suggests on inclusive leadership and cultures. and I do that with a variety of partners, including the Center for Compassionate Leadership. who are a, a global, quite evidence, research based, but also practice-based body that support a whole variety of industries and organizations

James 1:44

So what exactly are we gonna talk about today then?

Daniel 1:48

So for me. If, I'm gonna put it in a nutshell, what I'm interested in is how do we evolve the, the capacities as courageous conscious leaders who can start to not just, uh, model and do a good job of, uh, showing up with their teams but also. And start to accelerate the change that is needed in the wider system where they often have, quite a lot of influence around the way, the ways that work gets done to, to make our, make our organizations more future fit and human centric.

James 2:17

Okay. But to put it very simplistically, then it really is just about how you get the most out of your people.

Daniel 2:24

well, yes, I would say, leadership is about people in my mind. perhaps we switch here to what compassionate leadership, uh, is about. 'cause of course compassion is really about the alleviation of suffering. Yeah. None of us want to, we all want to be happy. the issue is many organizations, uh, I could have a wonderful intention about that, but there's gonna be lots of things which are just making that happen, the way that roles are set up, the ways that we do work, the ways that people are rewarded and so on. So it's also looking at the causes of suffering.

James 2:56

But there's a, there's a implicit assumption in there, which I may or may not agree with, but that people in organizations suffer. Could you just expand on that a wee bit?

Daniel 3:09

perhaps I'll give you a bit more of a definition of what we mean by compassion. There, there, there are four elements. Some of 'em you'd be very familiar, familiar with is, first of all, just sensing when a human. Is, suffering it could be just the ways we have of making decisions or, our agile, uh, uh, conditions or hybrid conditions don't work for me. I have to work incredibly hard to show up in the way that you all want me to, to show up. That could be one version of suffering. Uh, another could be just some very. everyday human suffering. I've experienced something difficult in my personal life. Perhaps I'm going through a divorce, and that's impacting my ability, to do this work. So your ability to be able to recognize that sense it, know about it, engage with it, and then decide whether you can help, frankly, You can, you can provide some support. You know, compassionate leave is the sort of obvious, uh, one that comes into mind for some of those personal things.

James 4:07

But then, sorry, maybe I'm stretching the analogy a wee bit too far if you buy a car right? You know, whether the car's overheating. 'cause you've got a little gauge on the car to see that the right. So you know that the car is suffering. Now, sorry, that's a bit crass the way I put it.

Daniel 4:22

and it is a problem. Yes.

James 4:23

But yeah, but the mechanically you understand, but really what you are saying then is that we need to understand, the level of suffering in our employees. 'cause if they are suffering, even if it's a little bit, then they really won't be able to do the job that we are employing them for.

Daniel 4:39

Exactly, There's a sense of identifying if there is some suffering, challenge, pain, use, whichever word you want to, Deciding that it's important, connecting with that? empathizing with it. if I can start, walk in your shoes, see through your eyes that situation that you are dealing with, it's gonna better enable me to understand it. And then there's a, there's a kind of jargon phrase here, emotional resonance. If I can really resonate with it, then I can, I can take a step back I have to do that consciously take that step back and go, okay, so how can I, how can I help you? What can I do for you? What can I do here in the system? And yes, a challenge is when we're going at a hundred miles an hour. Often we'll miss it. We won't have the conversations about how things are going. We don't read the engagement surveys. and part of it. is the easy inner work of that because that's, that's the piece that's not obvious. That ability for me, in a way to train myself to be better able at sensing, to be more yeah. Sensitive, if you like.

James 5:39

so in many ways you are talking about what I would've called emotional intelligence. But is that something that every manager has got? is it a skill that it's possible to develop or is it, do you know? I've worked with some people where I think this is really beyond you. I don't even know why I'm having the conversation. Can managers act on this?

Daniel 5:55

Well. I think emotional intelligence is, again, one of those phrases which holds an awful lot. And I, and I agree with you that it is right at the heart of this. Absolutely, For me, me, to be able to do that. Effectively and consistently. there's quite a lot of work to do in there, I need to have some understanding, some awareness. it's not a, you never get there. It's really about that. Ongoing commitment to becoming hopefully more consistent with how I show up.

James 6:21

But it is, but it is definitely a trainable skill. Is it? It is

Daniel 6:25

definitely trainable. Definitely trainable. is it something we all have? compassion is definitely innate. babies have it, they can spot another baby and see that it's having a hard time but. In the environment we're in, it's not always easy to switch that on. There are organizations that they're not constructed in a very human-centric, compassionate way. I can definitely train certain, everyday practices that are gonna enable me, to better understand and appreciate One of those is gratitude, understand, um, you know what's going on, be present to it, be attentive to it, Also become better at the action piece. what I can do then to, to engage, You know, you've had a hard day, I can tell it. I can see it on your face. I take the moment to connect with you and just see how you are, and I'll listen and I'll offer some support. That's one thing, but then leading for compassion that can take a lot of courage for me to step up and go, look, this system that we've all signed up to. It isn't working. Uh, and then to suggest that we do it differently, that takes personal risks,

James 7:24

But can I just track you back something and see? You make a very interesting point, which is a babies are born with compassion. They understand when other babies have a problem or unhappy, but therefore, by definition what you're saying is that the organizations we work for or the systems that we work with are beating the compassion outta us or preventing us from a demonstrating it. Is that fair?

Daniel 7:42

I think in some cases we could say that, that's true. If we just look at the, the rise of AI that, is now being built into, almost every workflow, Is increasingly creating a sense of transactionality. It's starting to erode some of the ways in which we traditionally, would connect with one another. and people are suddenly feeling anxious, confused, that there's ambiguity about what their role is turning into, If that's an example.

James 8:11

but you are much more diplomatic than I am. Let's be honest about this. are there any things when you walk into an organization, and they're just signs where you think, oh, I've got my work cut out for me here. What sort of things set off the alarm balance?

Daniel 8:24

we could have a long conversation about this. if we just think about when crises hit or when, Large scale change, which these days is often very accelerated. It's a bit knee jerk. We've, we've gotta cut this amount of people. We've gotta, uh, very quickly shift to a new way of doing things. How it misses out that human component or how that's done in a cursory way. that consideration of not just how do they feel about it now in this moment, But how's it, how's it gonna affect my sense of career security, for example, uh, or progression or, uh, you know, authenticity in this organization now that I'm being asked to do something that I never signed up for. I think it's often not. Because there's a bad intent, I very rarely would, would question that there isn't good intent. Uh, but I think it's just that sense of wrong priorities. and frankly, the leaders who are making these decisions often very stressed themselves. they haven't considered themselves. Perhaps they have the privilege of not considering, um, some of the impacts on themselves. and that's where the evidence comes in, around compassion. Uh, looking at how it boosts, not just a sense of, engagement and loyalty in organizations. That stands to reason, doesn't it? If If I feel cared for, if I feel people are looking out for me, it's a place I'm gonna want to, uh, stay. days.

James 9:36

Uh, so what you're really saying, It's, we look at things very mechanistically and we don't realize that at the very heart of our system. There are people, and if those people aren't being looked after properly, don't be surprised if the machine or the system doesn't work as, as well as you would expect it to.

Daniel 9:54

Right. Yeah. Because we all know that, for a, for an organization. to work. that connection, that understanding is essential, I think. Five years ago, six years ago in COVID, there was some really good examples of this weren't there, I remember coaching a lot, a lot of leaders who were, in their home offices with the door shut. Well, they recognized that, with their head down an isolated in the world, actually, they weren't gonna solve very much

James 10:19

after, sorry. Taking an evolutionary perspective. People are social animals. So the minute you take that away from them, they Yeah. Will not perform as well. So it's very easy to say and implicitly it makes sense, but the problem I've got is I'll have somebody telling me they can give me a 10% efficiency improvement if they install this AI or whatever the hell it is, project they're going

Daniel 10:43

Um.

James 10:44

Whereas this is all the soft stuff and the soft stuff usually doesn't have any data associated with it. So is there, is there any hard and fast data as to why an organization should invest in this?

Daniel 10:56

there's a lot of data which shows that, if people report that sense of feeling, uh, attended to where they're in an organization where people have that, uh, capacity and that consistency, then yes, they're more likely to stay. Yes. They're less likely to burn out. Yes. They're more likely to step into those, High risk conversations or high potential failure situations. we all know it's great to come up with something that's, that's worked after nine, nine failures, but if your organization's one way you get slammed for the first or second failures, um, and I know many of them very well known organizations, then we're gonna keep it safe. And you know, that's a direct

James 11:32

Have you got any good anecdotal stories of this where this has really worked, which will bring it to life for people?

Daniel 11:39

Yes. Uh, I think one of the most interesting ones is where we've all been there, haven't we? In a team where we're asked to be open and share ideas and, be honest with what's going on. but because you sense it isn't as safe as it could be. We, we hold certain things back. We don't share, perhaps where things have gone wrong, aren't on track. because of that stigma attached to failure. Um, and so I'm thinking of a particular client, what he, what he decided to do intentionally and authentically, he didn't make this stuff up, was to go around and when he was having his check-ins with his various country leaders, was to start sharing some of what had gone wrong for him. After a while, he started to notice that there was a greater willingness for some of those, you know, country heads. He needed to hear the full truth from, to be able to share some of what was not going right. So there was something there and it's quite a good example of a sort of inner and outer. Aspect of compassionate leadership. The inner part is me actually doing some of that work to recognize, oh, there's stuff I don't feel comfortable sharing here. Um, sort of get over that, get over that, start doing it, and then practicing that consistently. So it's obviously not, not always about me. It could be about my, my colleague or my deputy who doesn't do that and starts. Closing people down or making them suffer when they, show up in, in unexpected ways. And I can be there to, to monitor that, to say, well, no, hold on. We can learn something here rather than just make them pay the consequences. I.

James 13:05

but just help me out a wee bit then. is it semantics or not, but you've got compassion, you've got empathy. There are all sorts of people talking about all sorts of different things. What is the difference and what does it mean? And why should I care? Maybe,

Daniel 13:20

think it is really important to care because there's a neurological basis for it. Perhaps I'll start with, some of the other words which come to mind. Often we're thinking about sympathy and pity. Give you a crude analogy. If you spot someone who's just, unintentionally stumbled and fallen into a great big hole, they can't get out of, physical or metaphorical. Um, so I could sort of observe that or be told about it.

James 13:41

to that person. Yeah.

Daniel 13:44

And so I could see them over there outside my window, that hole, and I could, I could feel for them. I could say, oh, I'm really sorry. Maybe I even send 'em a message. I'm really sorry that you've fallen in this hole. Obviously that's not doing a great deal. Sometimes actually that can be quite disempowering for me just to express pity. The sympathy bit is going a bit further. Coming perhaps up to the. The side of the hole and recognizing quite how big that hole is, and what it's meaning for you and expressing a bit more of a sense of, solidarity with you. I'm still not really helping when we get into empathy, which is why I think we all recognize it's important. It's actually me taking the time, the energy, the effort, to recognize. What you're actually experiencing. We talked about suffering earlier, so yeah, maybe, maybe the suffering that's enga involved here. I can resonate with you and I can make you feel heard and understood, which as we all know, sometimes that's. Part of the battle. Yeah. People, connect with us in that way. I feel seen, um, you haven't really helped me, but often just being heard and seen. Compassion is that intentional reframe, saying, okay, so you're in this hole here. I recognize what's, what's going on for you? How can I help here? Maybe I've got a ladder on my car that I can pass you. Or, or maybe there's something I've got no idea, hadn't thought about, and I can ask you. And actually, maybe all he needs is a drink at the moment or just a bit more company so he's not feeling alone and, On a neurological level, there's benefit of brain scans now and being able to identify which neural networks show up with, with what elements of thought empathy very much, uh lights up those networks which are connected with pain and suffering. So that's very important of course, for me to be able to do that. But that's also after a while, gonna risk me getting into a situation where I'm worn out. We call it empathy fatigue. So I see a lot of dispassionate doctors because day in, day out, they're seeing patients who are, who are suffering and they wouldn't be able to do their job for very long if they're constantly feeling into how hard that is. They need to go on and make the next decision and complete the next successful operation or whatever it is. So compassion. When I, when I switch into that, the different perspective, which might not be just about you, it could be about the system. Uh, let's cover up these holes and make sure no one's falling into them, speak to the people who are creating them, et cetera. That switch is different receptors on that's more about, it's pro-social, but it's more sustaining actually, makes me feel better.

James 16:05

So, so when you talk about this, Daniel, you talk about leading for compassion, leading with compassion. Indeed. Yeah. So what's the difference and what, do I as a leader need to do? Both

Daniel 16:18

both are important of course, and most of us would probably say the leading with compassion is the obvious one. That's how I show up in all situations, uh, with that sense of treating everyone. including myself with compassion in all situations. Leading for compassion

James 16:38

Is

Daniel 16:41

Thinking about the system, thinking about the culture of the organization. What can I do? What can I affect or influence that's gonna support that flourishing of everyone in the organization and shift the, the ways we do things to, towards that. Yeah.

James 16:58

sorry, This is a question that some of the guys who've worked for me would probably wish I'd asked earlier then, but what could I personally do to be a more compassionate leader? Absolutely. I.

Daniel 17:07

we always start with the inner part of compassionate. How do I show up and get, present and connected with what's happening for me so that I can be resilient, I can have the bandwidth, to be able to continue to do what's being asked of me as a leader, we have a,

James 17:26

The

Daniel 17:27

a field of awareness that's called self-compassion. Which in a nutshell is, how do I give to myself while I'm giving to others so I can remain sustainable? there are, quite a few mindsets that can really. Help or hinder us. one for example, is this sense that, when things go wrong, when things are hard, we often have that natural tendency to think that it's just me. Everyone else is fine. Uh, it's just me is having these problems, which actually can make things even harder. It makes it less likely that I'm gonna be asking for support, for example, or looking for ways that I can support myself, unlike. The opposite of that, which is recognizing, oh, this is actually quite common. There's a lot of people in this situation. Uh, and that can be helpful.

James 18:09

But what you're really saying is I cannot be compassionate to others unless I'm compassionate to myself.

Daniel 18:16

I think you can't be sustainable in that. I talked earlier about empathy, fatigue.

James 18:20

Of

Daniel 18:21

Of course there's compassion fatigue as well. If I keep doing, doing, doing everything that, uh, that I can see I could possibly do to help everyone else, at some point, I, I'm gonna burn out of that as well. I'm, I'm gonna lose a perspective or I'm gonna start to, get a bit, um,

James 18:36

Par

Daniel 18:37

Maybe, there's a number of elements to this and a lot of them are connected with how I keep myself, well regulated so I can continue to, to show up and do the hard stuff in a human way.

James 18:49

But you, what I'm getting from that then is actually people can pick up or they can sense if you are compassionate to yourself, because if they don't see you doing that to yourself, they won't see you doing that to them. It's almost a soft color and curves type moment.

Daniel 19:07

Spot on. Um, I think there's another element to this, which you've landed on here, which is that actually giving to myself. there's stigma attached to that. There's a sense that people think, oh, that means me being weak or strong enough, resilient enough, um, bulletproof enough. Unfortunately, there's some pretty, unhelpful role models out there who report to that, So yes, if I show up as a leader. And I'm gonna be more congruent, Perhaps more open, more, more authentic, more sincere. As much as that might not be comfortable. Yeah, because there's emotional risk attached to that. But yes, it gives people that permission and it elevates the importance of us doing this. we've all seen the stats around the amount of people who are off work due to. stress, burnout, mental illness, mental health issues. and that's often in organizations, where there is a reluctance, for particularly for leaders, to own their part of.

James 20:04

it is almost like the thing about do you go for a walk, right? You get, everybody's got to that point. It's three o'clock in the afternoon, you've been in meeting, after meeting, after meeting, after meeting, you think you should go harder and harder and harder. Whereas in reality, the best thing you can do is get out the office and go for a walk down the side of the canal or wherever the head it might be, and just decompress and it will help you. No end. You will get your thoughts straight. But in many organizations that's seen as a, a sign of weakness. Where the hell is he going for a nice ward down by the side of the canal. Yeah. Um, but that comes from the top. So it's almost what is the culture of the organization? How much of this pressure is coming from the top people not to want to be seen, to be behaving like that.

Daniel 20:47

Yeah. What do we pay attention to? what do we measure? I remember hearing about, this big retailer. We all know one of their senior leaders. It happened to be out and about at that time. mid afternoon spotted one of his, direct reports having a haircut, and he walked up to him. they clocked each other, so there was no, no pretending, He walked in and he went, I'm really glad. See you here because I, I've actually been meaning to ask you this question. Nothing to do with the haircut or what time it was, or the fact that it was unexpected. and I suppose that's a bit of a simplistic way of saying, what do we pay attention to? what do we, actually model in, in our team cultures and our organizational cultures? I think the leader's got a huge part to play in that,

James 21:28

Yeah.

Daniel 21:29

just what they say, but of course How they show up. we can talk about work-life balance. the three o'clock in the afternoon walk is one thing, but how about a weekend? when your boss boss is emailing you on a Saturday evening or a Sunday evening, despite all the nice comments about no, you, reply when you want to reply. Well, he seems to want to response. He's my boss and he decides my pay packet, my bonus, so perhaps I should respond to him. And then those good intentions go out the window. in compassionate leadership we talk about, changing a culture hugely hard to do, that pull of the existing culture is incredibly strong, how we've always done things, and yet whether I'm a senior leader or middle manager, there are incremental things. You know, the way I respond to a colleague when I see them doing something that I wasn't expecting them to be doing that. can create the, an important signal, not just for them, but for anyone else who hears about it or observes.

James 22:19

the first level then is being compassionate with myself. 'cause I can't be self-compassionate. I won't be authentic. But then is there this, is there stuff that I can be doing to be more compassionate with the people who work around me? What sort of things would I focus on?

Daniel 22:34

Yeah. And so we, we, have a. A foundational program where we go through a series of. Practices, and one of them you just mentioned by the way, which is three o'clock in the afternoon, I've got a decision to make here often. We'll just go for the knee jerk is just a, is just a pause, take a beat. it's, you can sum up emotion intelligence in that phrase as well is just to recognize what's going on here. What are the tensions and making that decision from a place of, awareness and intention? remember what my intention is. my intention is actually to stay well so that I can be here. At the end of the week, as present and alert as I am, as I'm now, that might mean that a break would be good here, but there are many appreciation replenishment is a very important one. talked about, a sense of common humanity. and those take. Those, those take practicing. And what the research, the science shows is when we practice these, call them compassion, uh, building practices, it starts to change the neurology. It starts to change even the epigenetics, if that means anything to you, a sciencey word, but it means. What, what are some of the, the chemical changes that happen in particular situations where I used to do this, but now I, now I now I'll be more, more inclined to pause.

James 23:48

So is there anything else I should be thinking about in terms of how I become more compassionate as a

Daniel 23:52

There's a, there's another piece in there. Which is, emotional resilience. some of you may have heard about, Dr. Dan Siegel, who's done a lot of work on this, written a lot. Uh, he's a neuroscientist and psychologist. He's got a model called The Window of Tolerance. Think of it as your kind of. Dynamic, optimal zone. when we get, close to, or we get stressed or we're just exhausted or overwhelmed, we can sometimes be prone to some quite strong emotions. that kind of anxiety of not having. Met the deadline yet, or, still having three hours of meetings after a whole day already or whatever it is where we're not in that optimal zone. And the risk, of course, there is that we're not gonna be making very, uh, people-centric decisions. and so the point of that is really, first of all, awareness. How good are we tuning into where I'm at? Can I notice the signals when I'm starting to get to that point? I notice it with tiredness, but I also notice it with emotional reactivity. Am I more likely to get short with people, uh uh, for example, often in my personal life?

James 24:56

Yeah, unfortunately I only notice I'm getting short with people after I've got short with

Daniel 25:00

Well, at least you can notice it earlier rather than later. I guess that's one way of measuring that. So yeah, I think then. The question is, what do we do to get ourselves back into it? we said something earlier about the afternoon walk. Actually, maybe I do need 10 minutes now. I haven't really got time. But just to stop, just to sort of come back to what's important, uh, just to give myself a break or my mind a break, and then there's also a bigger conversation about how do I widen out those peaks and troughs. There's the overstimulated, but then there's also understimulated When we hit the weekend, we're too exhausted to do anything. See anyone interact with our families, And that's not great either. It's not saying you can't decompress, but perhaps it's spotting the need to do so before you crash.

James 25:44

we've discussed as an individual, what can you do to become more compassionate? Is there anything I should, or people listening should be thinking about when it comes to their organization?

Daniel 25:52

know, lead, uh, compassion leadership is about leading with and leading for compassion. Let me say that. leading four is, easiest thing to say, hardest thing to do, I think, uh, in, in many ways. Why? Because the culture of our organizations has been built usually for decades, if not centuries. It's very strong. You can try doing something different, perhaps more human centric. And that culture will pull you back. And there are some useful tools. so we have a, a framework, we call it the, social architecture. So you can think of your role as a leader, as someone who's designing a work environment, that's gonna be better, more human centric. And there are a few elements of that which I can talk through so their roles, networks. Routines, uh, and culture. When we think of our roles, You are the finance director, you have these KPIs, these responsibilities, this team to lead and so on and so forth. how do I perhaps adapt or shape my role in a way. That can enable greater, I remember we've talked about different elements of compassion. So maybe, uh, my ability to sense into, um, where there, where people are having a, a, a bad time to actually make some changes. I seem to remember one of our colleagues said. There was a chairperson in her organization who would show up early for meetings and make tea. So his informal role there was tea maker. Of course, it wasn't about the tea, it was the fact that he was around to have that one-to-one informal interaction with people where he probably found out a bit about how they were doing, those people who were, maybe not usually knocking around the executive suite where he sat. And you know, there was probably more to that.

James 27:31

Do you know? That's very interesting. Um, I was running a project and I needed to get people in to brief them. I needed to get 'em in for quarter to nine to brief them. And of course they all got better things to do with their time. And my boss said to me, well just lay on some bacon sandwiches, James. And so I became the bacon sandwich provider. Now, that was a little bit mechanistic, but actually it is playing In the same space,

Daniel 27:50

moment, yes. You could look at it just as, yes, that was good of you to do that, but there was probably a lot more to it if you go back and think about what happened around those moments that. There's many ways we can choose to show up. It could just be someone who's spotlighting of what certain people in the organization who are perhaps unsung heroes are bringing, some of the good things, some of the positive stuff that's already happening,

James 28:11

but when you say role, it really is about the jobs that I fulfill and are they getting me the outcome or getting the right

Daniel 28:18

Exactly and thinking about it a bit more with a cultural lens actually. So these four elements, of course, they, they all overlay each other.

James 28:25

And if you've got subordinates working for you, would you change their roles or is that a bit uh, machi veian of playing too much with it?

Daniel 28:34

Would I change their roles? I think it's a, it's, it's probably a very. A very needed conversation. So when you say Machiavellian, I guess you're thinking there, do that in the background for them. Without them, I'm a big believer in open dialogue around these things. But I think. looking at roles. It's looking at how we can shape them, enact them, adapt them in ways that make sense for what the organization needs to better serve. Its, its, its people or which have a stakeholder

James 29:01

And other than the tea example, have you got any other sort of tangible examples that will bring this home for

Daniel 29:07

think look at, look at any, formal or informal role that a leader might take. So let's take some of the more formal ones. Your, um, you, you are charged with certain Administrative, certain processes. When people leave the organization, for example, so how. Are those done? Are they actually paying attention to some of those human needs? Are they actually unnecessarily creating more stress? So I think we can look at many, many roles in and, and bring that lens.

James 29:36

so roles is one of the four things. Where

Daniel 29:38

Yes. I already, I already touched on another one as I was talking there, which are routines. So what are routines? Think of it as ways of working, maybe your. Trying to agree a budget, these are often recurrent things that happen. We always don't even know, don't even think about them 'cause they're sort of just hum along in the background and yet they provide predictable. touch points or ways of looking at what gets done in our organization where again, we can think what, what, in the way that this gets done, what, in the ways that we do this is either. constricting or allowing, allowing a sense of, human centricity, compassion to come through. And again, there are dozens of those. how we onboard people, how we do meetings, how we do our. Weekly check-ins with our team. How do we do training? All of those things. Um, we can, we can look at those. Hows again, and look at what even tiny shifts like we have our weekly meeting. Could we, for the first five minutes, uh, choose. To go into the human angle and see how people are actually showing up, how they're really showing up, or just

James 30:43

Yeah, it's funny you should say that. About five years ago I was responsible for an operational excellence program, which is probably about as unhuman centric as you can get, and. boards across the operation. So big call center, lots of performance boards and team meetings. But interesting, what the consultants recommended was in the bottom corner of the performance boards. We just have a little happy, smiley area, are you happy or are you sad? And everybody just had to pull up a sticker and share where they were. And it sounds really trite. But actually it forced the conversation. So in that regard it was really good.

Daniel 31:18

And they can be really incremental things, as you say, just that little spot with the happy faces or unhappy faces. But actually it starts to shape the culture a bit, starts to shift the conversation. and all of those. Things can, can, can start to make a difference.

James 31:34

Okay, so we've talked about roles and routines. Where next Matrix

Daniel 31:38

networks, let's go from

James 31:40

network. I was close. I was very close. Almost listening. Gimme five out of matrix. I said five out of 10.

Daniel 31:46

Okay. Ne nearly there. Yeah. Well, exactly. Many of us, uh, do work in, in, in matrix environments, so

James 31:51

Exactly. That's what I was thinking. Thank you very

Daniel 31:54

shape. But I guess here we can look at networks from quite, uh, a broad perspective. So these are human networks. How does information, how does support, how does even emotion people's experience flow? And a couple of ways of looking at that. one, is to think about the quality of those connections or ties in that network. So we would say high quality connections are where there's a high level of vitality, so good energy flowing. Like unlike most of the people that we're connected in on social networks, probably we're not communicating. We just broadcast them. We probably don't look at anything they post, uh, mutuality. Kind of similar sort of thing. Yeah. So it's coming from both ends. There's that willingness and commitment. Uh, I don't just send invitations, you actually show up sometimes. And then a sense of positive regard. So we're in it for the right reasons. this is not just about politics and covering my backside, but there's something here about creating real connection many organizations will have Formal networks, even sub-networks, for example, the, the women's network is a, is a popular one so there's something around how we show up for those or create those I think the last thing I'll say, which I think is often interesting for leaders is we, we'll think about our network as the people who. Report to us, and yes, I'll meet them every week and I'll take an interest in them, but to what extent do we take an interest in how well these people are connecting with each other? that has a huge impact on how well we're able to operate as a cohesive, uh, and well connected team. So I can choose to bring some influence to that. I can choose to encourage the people in my marketing department, for example, to reach out to the people on the second floor, um,

James 33:33

It reminds me of the story about Google and their canteens, where apparently not I've ever been in a Google canteen, but apparently they have very long benches and free food, so everybody turns up with a free food. But they can't sit in their own cliques. They have to sit on the benches. And that just provokes con or promotes conversation, which I think is a very neat way of, um, improving

Daniel 33:54

Yeah. that's a great practical example. And being intentional about creating those bonds. And that's not just about having nice conversations, getting to know each other. But it's also, back to the practicals of how does information flow?

James 34:06

so so how about culture then? That was your fourth

Daniel 34:09

Yeah. So what's culture about? one way we could think about it are those shared assumptions that govern how we actually behave in an organization. What it's okay to feel, to think, to perceive. Yeah. We all know that there are certain, uh, context in an organization. Maybe the same project, but different people where it's okay to say something or challenge someone and others where it's not. a few hooks on this, for example, to what extent can we tolerate failure or, really lean into learning, really lean into this sort of uncertainty of. Trying out new ideas or experimentation. That could be one way of looking at culture. I think I mentioned belonging. That's a big part of my work at Inclusion Partners. How do we, deliberately create that environment where people feel, feel like they're well understood and they're part of that culture. And I guess those three other levers all fold into this, don't they? Because the role I will take as a culture, uh, shaper, the routines, which are those great opportunities for making those shifts. And then of course, the tires that I create through the, through the networks will enable me, uh, long term. we hope, progress, gradually to create those shifts in the culture.

James 35:21

Yeah, the risk of being a sort of bit flat earth about this. everybody talks about culture, but have you got any tangible examples of the sorts of things people have done to make a difference?

Daniel 35:31

Yeah, I know there are many successful organizations, would invest a huge amount in something new. They don't know whether it's gonna work or not. Um, maybe they bet even more than they would've been comfortable to because they're influenced to, and it falls flat, So you can imagine there's an awful lot of, well egos, but careers probably riding on the results of that. How do we respond? And its organizations. I think I heard that Google used to do this. They, they throw parties actually to celebrate the failure. Why? Because they actually realize that their success is built on proportionately a certain number of those. Failures now, it's not a natural thing to want to do, it's to celebrate a failure. And obviously there's different ways that you can do this. This, it's not about being inauthentic. It's about saying, well look, you know, we went for this, we tried it. And I, I guess what does that bring? It brings an opportunity to learn some lessons to acknowledge. Skills, qualities, efforts that have gone in, probably some bruised egos in there. Sure. We bring all that along with us. rather than often what the culture will say is, okay, well, let's, put that away and move on to the next one. and often, those, learnings don't get, surfaced.

James 36:37

But it is a definite sort of physical, that physical act reinforces the point that the um, organization's trying to make.

Daniel 36:44

Exactly. Yeah. what are those specific, rituals, things we do? we talked about communication earlier. You know, so much is virtual. but that effort, to get everyone on a plane or on a train and into some room somewhere, either at the office or perhaps we hire somewhere in the countryside, somewhere. Nice. And, how well that is, uh, put together and communicated and, even probably the standard of the room that you are, uh, accommodating overnight. All of that speaks something about the culture. Do we actually do, do we value you here? Do we value this time together? and I'm going beyond the kind of the nice jolly nice time reward here. I'm talking about. The way that people will feel when, they're given opportunities to connect with one another.

James 37:26

Cool. So have you got any, final thoughts and practical takeaways from leaders? Things you'd really like people to think

Daniel 37:31

Uh, yes. Thank you. Because here we are talking about compassion. I think I just said the word, nice to have. And I'm really aware that just, just that notion can sometimes just seem, it's a bit sentimental. and I would just remind people to think that compassion is actually the bit about action. Yes. Empathy, yes. Kind of connection with people. All of that is, is, is critical. Underlies it, but. Compassionate leadership is about what I am doing, uh, to shift the environment, what I'm doing actually to support people, out of that proverbial whole I spoke about earlier. So that's the first thing, I guess the second one, we can't keep doing this without that sense of inner. Regulation and the, the need to look after ourself, put on our own, uh, oxygen masks, so to speak, regulate so that we can show up for others, particularly through hard times. we're asking people to think about profession leadership as how you shift cultures and organizations. That takes courage. And we can't do it alone. So I guess that will be my last point is, you might feel like you are that trailblazer, that champion in your organization who really does care about this stuff. You might not see too many people around you, who are similarly motivated. But you need to find them e even if they're not in your organization. There's plenty of us out here. uh, to share what they're doing and to support one another.

James 38:56

Yeah, to find somebody you can help. Good. And finally, a question from me. I suppose if people want to go deeper, where should they look? Are there any resources or anything specific

Daniel 39:05

Thank you. Yes. I'm very strongly affiliated with the Center for Compassionate Leadership. Um, they're based in the states, they run programs globally. By all means, check out their website, uh, center for compassionate leadership.org. So they're running regular global programs here in the uk, uh, through inclusion partners. Uh, we run open programs. That's a very easy, low risk way of seeing, oh, is this good for my organization? Would this be good for my team or department? Um, you know, to put yourself or one of your people. Of our open programs. so if you look at my website, inclusion partners.com, or connect with me on LinkedIn. Uh, where you'll find, uh, I also post about, about the events we're doing or, you know, for many people open programs aren't it? So, you know, we are very much working in depth with organizations on how they do this, operationalizing themselves and providing guidance and tools. So very happy. Always have a low commitment conversation.

James 40:02

Super. Well, thank you very much for your

Daniel 40:04

Thanks for the opportunity, James. Thank you for the conversation. I've enjoyed it.