Ken talks to Dave Sims, again! Part 2 — "Ghost Stories, the Ghost Walk & the 18 Ends of Kempston"

After a short break, David Sims is back with more Kempston gems — including additional contenders for the Seven Wonders, such as the Springfield Asylum and the mysterious Priory. The conversation then turns to the Kempston Ghost Walk, David's beloved charity fundraiser that brings together genuine local history and folklore in one atmospheric evening. We hear how ghost stories rooted in real events — including a direct descendant of the Livy Brothers attending the walk — make it so compelling. David also corrects the record on Kempston's 18 historic "ends," cementing its claim as once England's largest village.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Welcome back, uh David. And you were going to throw some um some buildings or places into the pot.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Yeah, well, we've just done we've done the seven you know wonders of Kempston, if you like, or you know, the way I see it anyway, but other people probably have other ideas. Absolutely. But here's some other contenders that you could throw in the pot or some worthy notes, okay? So there's Kempston House at uh at Green End there. Uh what that's still there. It's still there, yeah. It's tucked in there and it's private very much, it's up by what was Kempston Nursery is up there till very recently. Then there's St Christopher's House. People will know that better in Bunyan Road as the um as the lodge, which was a children's home. You know, so that's uh at the moment boarded up as we know.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

It's there, what a waste.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

I know, I know. What you know, well, let's not even go there. It's another one of Kempston's buildings that's been boarded up and just left a waste. And then there was the Springfield Asylum, another great building. Now, this took up a great expanse of land uh between Hampton Road in Kempston and just about Margaret's Road. Huge place, you know. I remember the grounds uh because I played in there in the 60s when I was a lad, you know, with Ronnie Coleman, Royfield, uh Tim Noble and um Steve Williamson and the names, you know, but I can remember playing and sort of like dodging the dogs and all kinds of things in the grounds that he used to do. And was that then still used for its f as a facility? You see, this is the thing. I that's a bit smudged for me these days, and I have to say that, Ken. And the reason why I say it's smudged is because I can't remember it was or not. I know the Bowers were still out the Bowers family still had it at the time. Right. And Dr. Bowers, you know, but would have been long gone by then, I guess, because he was the guy that sort of ran the asylum. Now the s the asylum um was actually split into two parts, and you had the poor and those that could pay for it. So it was advertised as an asylum, you know, on posters uh that are still in existence where people would pay to come there, but then there was also the asylum side of things for people who were destitute and stuff like that, you know? Yeah, yeah. And um there's uh ghost stories associated with that as well, you know. But um, yeah, so it was a huge building. So that's Kempston Asylum, anyway.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

So the Springfield Asylum. The park that's over the back of Margaret's Road, West between Margaret's Road and Westdale Walk. It was it was Bower Wood Park or something it used to be called when we were kids, so that's how we used to know, it's Bower Park or something like that. So that will come from the name of the people that run the asylum. Dr.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Bowers, absolutely, Dr. Bowers, that's indeed right. Yeah. So um then there's Box End House up at Box End, uh great big uh and the and the clock house, I have to say that it was Doc uh Lord Clark lived there at one point. Um Sir William Clark, and he became Lord Clark later on. He used to go in the shoulder mutton. It's the only time you ever heard Jim Jessup speak with a posh accent. You know, he spoke like us, you know, you speak with this kind of accent, you know. All right, are you you know that kind of thing? But if it was Sir William Co.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Hello, Sir William And and he wasn't taking the Mickey, that was he would genuinely do that.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

He swe he'd switch his accent, yeah, because it was you know because oh it's Lord Clark, or Sir William, you know, to come in the pub. I remember the guy I remember him coming in there with Lord Clark, yeah. And then there's a few schools, you know. Um, you know, the board school's a lovely building, which is the board school now known as Bedford Road School, you know, that's lovely building. I've I said school was a nice building as well, stone building.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

The board school is in is still in the original brickwork there. Board school. Did the people board there?

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Yeah, they did originally, and you know, my dad, um my dad actually, who was born in the 20s, that was the one school he went to throughout his education. So that was a total you know, you went there, and that that was the only school you went to.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

So the board school didn't mean the kids were all bored, it meant that they bought there.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

That's right. And while we're talking, I have to mention you know, some of the guys that were in my dad's class at school, you know, because obviously Kempston is a much smaller place, and um people might remember the people remember some of these. So Danny Jessop was in the was in the class. He he had the three horseshoes over at West End, Kempston West End, the pub. Then there was also um uh Derek Britchener, one of the Britchener brothers who ran the Butchener's Butchers at the bottom of the hill by Kempston Laundrette there, you know, um down in the High Street by uh next door to Kempston. There was a butcher's round there. Yeah, next door to Kempston. Well, there was a few butchers, weren't there? Well, we won't go through them now, but there was at least half a dozen butchers in Kempston. I could name them if you wanted me to. Yeah, but there was Jim Danes uh in Bedford Road, there was uh Moncle Dowling down in Spring Road, there was Copperwheat Butchers, you know, there was Bitchiners Butchers, yeah. Yeah uh as I say, there was Danes and um I've got I've got a bit stuck, but there were some more on top of that, yeah. That's probably but anyway, yeah. So um yeah. But um and also another guy that was in the class as well was Ron Bull. So Boot Bull. Ron Bull, of course, Ron Bull who had his little cobbler shop and it's still there now. Stood up to the panel. The smallest dwelling in Kempston, I guess, now your private dwelling in Kempston.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

But of course, our when we talked about the um Lake District Estate on there, he absolutely point blank refused to let them purchase his.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Well, this is obviously gone into urban legend now, but it's perfectly true, you know, and people remember him and respect him for it because everybody else, you know, had their properties demolished and probably, you know, uh were you know obviously uh took some payments, um, whatever they were in the 1970s, around about 73 time, but um uh Sainsbury's being built in between 73 and 74, but um but Romble, yeah, he categorically said no, no, no, no, and he loved his little shop and things like that. And you know, if you if you look at photographs of that little shop now over the years, and you know, when he had it, you go in there for instance, you know, now he'd be and he'd call me young Ben all the time because I'm a dad, you know, oh young Ben, you know, as when I went in there, and he'd be doing his you know uh mending shoes in there. He also sold uh the pools there, so you took your I took my dad's pools there, the Vernons and the Littlewoods, you know. But but the thing is that outside there, leaning against the wall was his moped, and it wasn't locked up. I remember that. Weren't locked up, his moped, and it wasn't locked up. You could lock, you know, leave a moped unlocked. Now these days, you know, if if a moped was sniffed with waste, you know, welded to the floor with a waste with uh that that's still gone, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there we go. Anyway, so um the they're the contenders, but we haven't done number seven yet. We've only done six ones of Kempston. The last one has got to be because of it's always on, you know, um, you know, all the pictures of Kempston, and that's um the uh Kempston's King William the Fourth Inn. Oh yeah, so yeah, that's the six the part of it's medieval. Yeah, um it was two buildings uh originally, farmhouses. Um when you go in there you can still see the division where the two buildings were. But anyway, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

If you stand at the front, you can work it out. You can you can in the bit where you go through to the toilets, yeah, you can clearly see that that was a separate part of the uh of the building originally.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Yeah, and you've got a massive clue to the you know, because it was a private building, and that's the name of the pub itself, the King William the Fourth Inn, when it just doesn't fit because King William IV, or Sailor Bill, as he was called, you know, came you know, 18 you know, twenty-nine, you know, and obviously the wick the King William's a lot older than that, 1829, but um it was only licensed as a pub for the very first time, so it only became a pub during the reign of King William IV. Right. And then across the road at one point there was the Queen Adelaide Gallery, actually, which was a picture gallery where you could buy pictures, and that got the name because Adelaide was the Queen of William IV, and that's how they got the name of the gallery across the road. Right. So we finally got there with the King William. Although, you know, it's worth a mention as well about the you know, those beautiful little cottages by the side of the church, yeah. Uh all saints, you know, beautiful little tranquil setting there. Um they were originally or were at one point the workhouse of Kempston. So those cottages were the workhouse, and they're still on the um on the uh workhouse of Great Britain database. Yeah, so there we are.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

I have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Well we know about workhouses, don't we? You know why they were there, yeah. They were just quite there for you know to keep people, um, you know, sort of uh um people who lived in poverty to give them a place to live, you know, a shelter, but at the same time they worked worked um for it.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Yeah. Wow. Wow, that was truly fascinating, David. So um we can either go in a direction that you want to take us or we can go in a direction that I'd I'd like to go. We've talked about buildings, but I would like to talk about something within a building, someone that's quite dear to my heart. Um and it's the the tiles on the wall of Victoria Wall in Bedford. Now uh dear to my heart because I spent I I'm uh of a certain age. Oh I know what you're gonna say. And I can remember being hosp in hospital in 1973 with the fish tank. With the fish tank and these amazing tiles nursery rhymes, and the rocking horse in the in the in the player at the end. Yeah, I know. Um but the thing that really stands out uh i is the tiles. Yeah. And I thought recently I would I sort of mentioned to someone I'd love to be able to see them again. I'd never been in Victoria Ward since, never seen them since. Yeah. And of course it's not a children's ward anymore. And lo and behold, um ended up in there with with my dad who was in hospital, and at one point overnight they put him in Victoria Ward and let me I got me a wish. I wish it was different circumstances, but um it was amazing to see them. I I think it's one of the projects that the the charity, the Bedford Hospital Charity, I'd love to see them. So although it's the medical stuff is really important, they they clearly need to be uh restored. Yes, they they're all up there still. Yeah, and apart from they're they're aged, but apart from in one area, someone put a sleeping window in.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

Yeah, in the Cinderella, they did, you're right. Um but that the reason for that was because um but quite simply they needed to have a view in that room because that you know in sidewards, the the nature of side wards became that you know that's where people, you know, um were either in isolation because of a infectious uh, you know, um you know situation, or they needed to be closely watched, you know, because they were very poorly, because you know, people who were very poorly put in sidewalls. So anyway, so um so that window was cut into the yeah, into the Cinderella, um, which is one of the biggest freezes in there, isn't it? One of the biggest tile freezes in there, yeah. How long ago was that in David? What sort of decade was that? Oh my goodness, that would have been in you know, sort of early 2000s. Yeah, not not oh it is quite recently, yeah, very much so. Because as you said before, it was the children's ward, yeah up until 1996. Then 1996 they um they built what is now the um the signet wing, right, which was opened by the Queen, and um yeah, so um before that children's ward was Victoria Ward, and as you said, we said we joked about the fish tank, but then they had fish in those days. The neon t-I remember the neon tetras and things like that. Remember this the rocking horse that we talked about? Yeah, I years later, when working at the hospital, you know, I went out to Victoria of Isolation at the back there, and the rocking horse was still tucked out the back, as you said, and it had shrunk because I'd grown, you know what I mean? Yeah, and think that can't possibly be that huge rocking horse I went on when I was four years old. Of course it was, you know, and I was a lot older than four years old, and then and it seemed so much smaller then, you know. But um, so that the tiles themselves were were were you know, they they the idea of the tiles was it was it was a commemoration of the silk the the um you know the diamond jubilee of uh Victoria Queen Victoria, yeah. 1897, that's right. And um, so you know, and a lot of people put money into you know the production of the tiles. In fact, they've still got people's names on there, and they're people who are connected with you know local, you know, and people with money with you know, but local businesses at the time, like Alan's the Queen's Works and things like that, and loads of other people did it. But what we also need to remember is that um although they've stood the test of time, and you know, and they it it is Victoria hand painted artwork, they were they were greatly under threat, and there's serious, serious danger of being demolished, you know, and thrown into a skip, quite literally. Because if you take those tiles off, they ain't gonna survive, are they? They're gonna break and things like that. No way, but that was the plan. Okay. Now we've got a we've got to credit a couple of people and probably fair few others, but I'd I'd mentioned David Fowler from who who's also the one of the leading lights of the Bedford Tour guides these days who came on the ghost walk last year, funny enough. And um, and David, you know, he produced a board outside uh Victoria Ward, which is still there telling a little bit of the history of read every word on that board. Yeah, well, David Fowler was very much, but somebody else we've got to credit with the with these you know the saving of those tiles is Myra Davis. Now Myra Davis was the uh a sister at the hospital, she was the sister of Whitbread Ward. Later on, she became the the matron or the the senior nurse or lead nurse if you like of St John's home over at Mog Moghanger. Right. Now we lost um poor Myra um three about I'd say about three years ago, uh but I might be wrong on that, but it was around that time frame. But um Myra never stopped. She was she was she was she was a powerful name uh you know a force of nature when it came for you know things like the history of the hospital, um nursing reunions and stuff like that, and raising money for the stuff, and she was very much um, you know, so we need to credit her also with a saving of those tiles, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Right. It's I I found it really interesting. I do I do hope that someone at some point says, look, these um because they'd have to be all hand painted again, wouldn't they? And then and then really sort of lacquered or so. Yeah, absolutely. They're looking a bit pale, but I it's funny how you talk about the horse shrinking as you got bigger, but I remember tiles being really colourful. And when I think back to to 73, they hadn't actually been there that long then, in real terms, they hadn't been there that long then. And I just remember them being so colourful, yeah. And now and Victoria Ward really gets the sun shining in some certain and it um so they're quite bleached now, they're quite pale looking. Yeah, but they're all they're all intact still. It wouldn't be amazing to see someone say, Come on, let's get these restored back.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

Some of those nursery rhymes, you know, we were brought up on nursery rhymes, but some of them you think, what? What's that one? Some of them are almost inappropriate nowadays. Well they are, they they most certainly are, and some of the others you you you know you've not even heard of, you know. No, there were some not out there. Victorian nursing rhymes in nursery rhymes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

And you're right, and in terms of the names, there was I think it's sixteen um wives uh of local business people and we'll say noblemen, whatever. Yeah, um, got together and and to come up with this and and funded it, basically. And again, if you go through the names of them, we won't go through all of them, but many of them are then linked into roads and streets of Kempst and Bedford that we know of. There was uh the wife and daughter of WH Allen. Yeah so uh the surnames are Allen is synonymous with with Bedford and Queensworth, yeah, over at Queen's Park, yeah. And then there's uh Violet Farrell, so Farrer Street in Kempston, Hester Hawkins, Hawkins Road, um Catherine Nash, I'm sure there's a Nash Road or a Nash Street, I can't think of the road. Yeah, and then there's Gifford Nash as well. Arnold Gifford, yeah, yeah. And then look at uh Agnes Robinson. Well, just think the the legacy that we got from the Robinson family with Robinson Paul. Um Catherine Talbot, there's definitely a Talbot Road, and uh Emily Thornton Isabel Whitbread. So again, all synonymous with Bedford. Yeah, and and again at a time when lots more thought went into the naming of streets and and roads and what have you. Now we're gonna finish David on a subject that is now dear to your heart, and I think you need to give us a bit of background on it. Um I have uh become involved in supporting the Kempston Ghost Walk in more recent years, but you've been there from day one because it's your baby. Um so how did the Kempston Ghost Walk even come about?

SPEAKER_00 18:33

Well the thing is that I was brought I I as a small boy, like loads of people in Kempston knew uh ghost stories of Kempston, was brought up on ghost stories of Kempston. Not many, not many, I'd say probably three. But um but about ten years ago I, you know, had the idea purely because of the the Ripper walks in London. Think about the Ripper Walks where people are touring around London and it's atmospheric, and they're told the stories, you know, or you know, about Jack the Ripper, of course, and um but then they're taken into car parks, you know, and they're taken to um big you know modern you know high-rise flats and say this is what not buildings of modern design, David. Yes, buildings of modern design. So, yes, indeed. So, yeah, so they've shown these, you know, and people have to use their imagination, yeah. But uh Kempston's different because we've still got sort of like old parts of Kempston and we've got these ghost stories. So I thought, why don't we do something based on the Ripper Walks where people are told the the ghost stories of Kempston with the the the backstorm with plenty of atmosphere, yeah, theatrics, you know, everything thrown at it, you know, to make it entertaining. And you know what? People have really supported and really come along in great numbers since we started. So this year's the tenth yeah, and um each year, you know, we I have to say, for the first couple of years, uh it was just myself and were and you know, just happy to do it. Uh but um then we had the idea to bring in more people, but also make it much more entertaining and also start charging. Why not charge so we could put money into charities as well, you know, every penny because we're not making any money out of it or spending any money out on these days. So the money let's just charge an entry fee, and that money can go to charity. So that's what we've been doing ten years this year, looking forward to it. Had a lot of people so far, the dates are the 13th of November this year and the 20th of November, right? You know, and whatever we'll be doing the ghost walks again, and uh like to see a whole new load of people and some familiar faces, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

It's really interesting because the the stories that lead to the ghost story are all parts of genuinely local history, yeah. Um and then the the ghost stories come because they're the ghost stories have been told and told and told and they evolve.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

Yeah, that that that's part, yeah, you're right, but also as I said before, mate, that um that I knew growing up about three ghost stories. So before we even thought, you know, before we could put this on the road, if you like, I had to look into the history and of ghost stories at Kempston and started unearthing loads of them, but also um not in one place, that's the whole point. They're in loads of different places. Going to Kempston Library, they're about five books on ghosts. and and each book's got a different ghost story of Kempston in it, or some of them are duplicates, and then you go on the national uh paranormal database that's got a couple of Kempston ghost stories on it. Then you go into the National the sorry the um the County archive Bevertshire archive and there's ghost stories there as well right and you have to unearth them sometimes because you you you're just reading a story about a um you know a a building in Kempston then suddenly they'll have a ghost story boot built bolted on the end of it so all these now have been brought together for the first time so people only hear all the ghost stories of Kempston on the Kempston Ghostball be proud of that and and I think it's brilliant and again you can take the original backstory to the ghost story and then you can find things that I'm I'm I'm I like to think now I'm fairly knowledgeable on the ghost stories because I've I've listened to the story a few times um and things like the Lily brothers yeah that that were were uh hung yeah um for poaching yeah or not um you could actually track and find yeah the graves of the Lily brothers you can the Lily brothers not not not quite poaching they went yeah they went out poaching that's right they went out poaching but it was the attempted uh murder yes that's of of the gaming keeper yeah you know Thomas I'm not an expert you see no don't worry but no Thomas no but Thomas Thomas King then gave bad evidence you know it was meant to be a lie in court and that led to them being yeah to go into Bedford prison I think what's really brilliant about the ghost war is the fact that you can then take it back and then say right you're going oh the Lily brothers were buried here.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

So the story is genuine yeah um and of course last year on the ghost walk we had actually a direct descendant of the Lily brothers came along all the way from Kent which is brilliant you know I love that so that people walking and talking well on the ghost walk last year who were related yeah and this is this is the beauty uh one of the beauties of social media there's a lot that we can moan about about social media but they found it by googling their ancestry and trying out sort of as much information about the family they knew they were from this area originally and then they come across the ghost story as a result of that yeah and then they book and come all the way from Kent onto the ghost and then they come and had a pint with us afterwards. They did which was which was amazing so um absolutely so the yeah the Kempton ghost if people want to find it just go on to social media search for Kempton Ghost Walk it's there. We've had the biggest take up my understanding at this time this far out from it than we've ever had so 100% the two dates that we've got they will sell out one of them's already sold almost sold out the other one's well on its way. So if people listen to this podcast and they think I wouldn't mind a bit of that then get on social media and search for Kemp's ghostwalk and get yourself on there now. Absolutely it's a nominal fee of five pounds that's right and that's you know I want to thank you for that though because the last I think last year it was the best part of £500 the Ghostwalk raised for and that went towards the Bedford Charity Chase which helped us raise £7,700 for creating memories the Road Victims Trust Kempston Charities and also can I just mention for anybody that might be listening okay a couple of things I'm happy to go out to anywhere and do a talk about the history of Kempston.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Alright because I've got a presentation and that's far more than what we talk about here alright and it's interesting as well I'd say it's not boring no no no anything like that absolutely not boring so so there is that I I do do that and um you know and and uh the ghost walk yeah uh every penny of that goes to charity we don't make any money on it at all no it's a fiver fantastic yeah now David it again it's just been fantastic well before we finish you did say too that you did yeah go on yeah no I've got to say an apology because I listened to our last podcast okay and um and I can't believe I said it and I said you know what I said about why Kempston was at one time officially the largest village in England because and uh you know and before it became a town now Kempston is a very widespread area it's bigger than Bedford the rural parts when you take in the rural parts as well rural and um so I said there was 14 ends of Kempston I wince when I opened it up because there are actually 18 ends of Kempston. Right. So we'll just rattle through them if we can go on just quick right the ones that uh existing now Churchend Box End Gibraltar Green End Well West End Wood End Up End Kempston Hardwick and Bellend okay so they're the ones that are still around all right when we look at the ones that don't exist anymore so you've got Bourne End for start you know I know there's a Bourne end over at Wootton close by but though Kempston Bourne ends gone Crow End Littleworth End Thisley End Gravel End Moorend Millend Cow End by the way we had Cow Bridge at one time didn't we so that's Elstow you know and Bridgeend as well and when you think you know you know they're the 18 ends of Kempston but if you think that Kempston extended from all the way right touching Bromham way beyond Box End to and then over towards Elstow for goodness sake you know touching you know that that edge of Bedford there as well you know and then going over to Kempston Hardwick and places like that suddenly you realise how vast Kempston was and when you talk about growing villages you know yes places like Wootton you know New Wootton but that's intense building isn't it development we're talking here about a great expansive rural area which made Kempston the the biggest village in England at one time.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Wow there a bit of history right yeah David then that's it I think you've got definitely got the bits you wanted to get in um it has been fantastic yet again and it really does show you that this area is full of history and full of stories and characters and it just needs someone like you to be called to life.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

Maybe one day we'll talk about the characters that made Kempston we will be back and we'll talk about the uh the the forthcoming great Kempston treasure hunt absolutely because I'm going to be setting a treasure hunt around Kempston based on the history but that's another thing.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Well we can share that David thank you very much for nice to talk to you absolutely