Episode 3: Growth, Vulnerability,& Balancing Life (2 of 3)

Transcript

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welcome back to Beyond Our Surface. I'm Jeff Huber. In our last episode, we start our three part series, growth, vulnerability, and Balancing Life. We kicked off an episode featuring Doug Hovland, Dr. Nick Schmo and Bob Boyle. They delved into their childhoods the impact of sports and mentors and their initial attempts at balancing career and family life. In this second episode of Beyond Our Surface, Doug, Nick and Bob continue their conversation on growth, vulnerability, and balancing life. The discussion centers on parenting achieving work life balance, and the vital role of community. Listeners will hear personal stories and advice on nurturing relationships, instilling values, and navigating the different phases of parenthood. Welcome back, and thanks for joining us for another exciting episode of Beyond Our Surface. Uh, to begin, Baba Doug, I'd like to discuss what's happening in Nick's life. So Nick, you've got a few things going on right now. you are a surgical resident and you got into, tell'em where you're gonna be going. Yeah. I'm heading to Hopkins for pediatric surgery, which is unbelievable. Four years of undergrad. Four years of medical school and then the program at university isn't just a five year residency. They do two years of research. So it's a seven year program. And then Wow. And then Nick said, that's not enough for me. I want to go on and do another, what, two years? Two years? Yeah. Pediatric surgery fellowship. Yeah. At, at John Hopkins. That's, that's a big task. And then appreciate that. Who is your, who is your wife? I, yeah, I mean, by far the luckiest part of this journey is meeting my wife intern year, but she started with me, is a, a general surgery resident the same year doing trauma, acute care surgery. Maddie's been by my side since we started got married three years ago now and have a six month old and. Some Ben. Unbelievable. I went to the graduation last night. Oh, nice. Okay. And it was really nice. It was a surgical graduation. It was all the residents I've seen go through the seven years and they're up there and, some of them are, thanking their, their spouses for, holding down the house and paying the bills and taking care of our kids. But, but Nick, now Nick is married to Maddie wants to be a trauma surgeon, right? Yeah. Correct. Yeah. So he wants to be a trauma and they have a six month old at home. Yeah.. That being said, guys jump in and what are some pivotal moments for, for you guys as parents and, and if you were to look at. It yourself and Nick, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, and, and you could look in a mirror, what, what kind of advice would you give yourself? I, I honestly would look back and say probably well done,, took some risks lived dangerously. There's an old philosophy, quote Doug, philosophy major, right? Can probably expand on this, but Nietzsche famously said, lived dangerously two words, right? It's what does it mean to you? Even with the friendships with you guys there was that trust, like in, earlier you were talking about Jeff and building a friendship with Jeff and building trust in a work environment as a colleague. I think trust is a huge thing. Just as an example, both of you guys, with the music or Jeff going back to our kids in elementary school,, I. I think it was just pickup after school, and we were chitchatting initially, and it was like, this dude. I can trust him. He's funny. But there's high expectations at the same time. There's a sense of ownership. And I think that's what's kind of kept not only the friendship, but even keeping a band. Like why have a band in your fifties? You know, it's like, why? Well, okay, we can break that down. We love music. But honestly, I mean, as an athlete I'm kind of hooked on this idea of, of teamwork and ownership too. And that's something that surprised me, I would say with, with a band. And, and not necessarily surprising, but it was welcome that it was like, oh, we can have, we can replicate this sense of ownership. Like it matters that we're gonna schedule practice every week. We're gonna get together and jam and work on some stuff. Sometimes other times we're just gonna let go and just, just freeform. So I'd say like combination of those two things. Even as a parent, it was learning with kids to establish trust with a child, with a son or daughter. But then also how do you balance that with instilling in them a sense of ownership for whatever it is they pursue, and they will lead, they're surely gonna lead us. You, and they still are. I mean, they're, they're young. My kids are young adults now. Yeah. And there's, there's daily surprises that are, they're, they're not always fun surprises, you know, they're challenging still. They're just different. It's just a different phase of life. That's that sense of ownership and trust is, for me, it ha it has to be there in any relationship and the parent child relationship. No exception. I think with every, every period of time, every milestone and you can break it up into years, you can break it up in decades. You could break it up into months, right. With your kids. You're gonna have moments where it's I don't know that I can do this. And then next thing you know, your kid becomes this different person or owns something differently for you, and then you're like, wow, I guess I'm not screwing this up. And, and you see this child. Through, you know, direction from friends, mentors, spouses, yourself succeed, whatever it might be. And those are like,, tying, tying their shoe. It's monumental. It is something to pat yourself on the back and, and your village. How, how about you, Doug? Doug, you've got two adult kids as well. Yeah. And how old are your kids? Yeah. Roger is 27 and Lindsay is 25. So it's been a great journey and it's, I am glad I'm where we are right now. Yeah. And I mean, if you were, if you were to go back and give yourself some advice knowing what you know now, anything you would, have a hard stop on or anything that you would say? Yeah, no, you're, you're, this is right. Keep going. Thanks for asking. Yeah. One thing I would do is I'd have'em use tools more just so they can just that physical dexterity. They were exposed to a lot of things and stuff like that. And exposed Roger very young. He he would write with a magnet thing. He would do the Disney lettering just perfectly, or a very young age. And one thing I did do right, is just see that and give him, he had endless amounts of paper and he, his, he like to draw a pencil mostly, but he, so he's a actually fabulous illustrator, of course exposed him to music and stuff. But yeah, I think just that physical dexterity, including sports and stuff like this, they weren't big sports kids. They were exposed to very many of'em, and definitely tried very hard. Just expose them,, to lots of things and encourage them to do things and you do have to show them some boundaries. They, kids are looking for boundaries. And the healthiest things you can is give them some boundaries, especially moral and ethical boundaries. They're looking for that and they need that, and they will push until they find that, by the way. So you don't want to let that go too far. Oh, and the main thing I wanted share was being consistent in your teachings of them. We change perspectives, but like in terms of it pays off sometimes after a year or two or three. And I first noticed that when my my kids' mom would tell them, say, please say thank you. Say please say thank you. And they were two and four years old and I'm like. This ain't happening. I'm not quite sure why you're asking them. And then I, it was, I couldn't believe it. It was about a year and a half later they were, thank you. Please. Can I consistently or something. It worked. It does work. Nick, any fears? I think for me, the biggest thing I'm trying to be conscious of now and certainly being in medicine is just this balance of trying to have adequate family time there's a big push for academic medicine and we see a lot of people Jeff and I work with that are still in their sixties and seventies and working these incredibly long hours. But, I want to be dad of the year. I want to be at the soccer games. And sometimes these two are a little bit disco congruent and operating on someone's child. They expect you to be there if anything arises postoperatively. And just trying to find that balance of having meaningful, purposeful time with my family., Being a provider and doing a good job at work. And have you guys ever reached crossroads where you kind of had to make that balance between career choices and time with family there were a lot of docs who were my mentors that helped me learn I think what happens is it's okay to say no. It's okay to be vulnerable to your partners, to your spouse, to your kids And so you, it takes a village. And, and there's nothing wrong with being vulnerable. Not a sign of weakness for ask for help. Because before you know it, like life flies by. Yeah. You know, and I really took a hard look at my life after Brody had died to say, okay, where did I mess up? What did I miss out on? And I really didn't, there were some things, but at the same time, I feel fortunate because I did learn how to say no. And I looked at surgeons, I looked at friends, I looked at the community to say, Hey, I need a little help. And that is so important. Did I fail? Sure I failed a couple times and, but then the thing about, it's, I learned from it. And I learned how to say no. I learned how to ask for help. I think that's what was most important for me and for my kids. And they came first, right? I was a pa first. Actually I was a husband first, and then I was a, a pa and then I was a dad. And that you can change those things around all the time. Yeah, you can change'em around all the time. Bob, any near misses, any fails that you just didn't know of you were gonna be able to get out of? And if so, how'd you do it? Yeah, with, respect to parenting, right. Lots of, lots of little failures and some big ones. I mean, there were some early on where I had this recognition at one point with, I think it was my son or something. And work had gotten work was hectic that day or something. Realized all of a sudden, wow, I'm, we're already big. We're already really big to them. Putting yourself in their shoes, right? And. Realizing like the volume wasn't necessary on this little dad tirade. You're already loud and big and scary, you know, in, in a sense to, to a little kid, right? Even if you're a loving parent and your kids trust you, and so that was an early lesson for me. I think that ties into, it's related to being, just being present too. It's not, it's like a quality and quantity thing and found that when, when I am with the kids, be with the kids it's really hard these days, right? It's harder than ever I think with all the distractions that we have to pretend that you're being with your kid when you're, when you're, when you're scrolling or responding to texts, that could probably wait. Like just knowing when to say when on that kind of stuff. Just put it aside, be present with the kids. So it's more about the quality of the time spent, I've found versus quantity. And I've screwed that up so many times. I mean, the, this, things hit you with work and you're like. This is really important. The penalty's pretty steep. If I don't get this email out tonight, or it feels pretty steep. Yeah. I've gotta get it out. Well, the kids kind of kids tend to pick up on that stuff and then they also replicate it? Next thing you know, it's them on the device and you call'em out on it and they're like pointing the finger right back at you. how about you, Doug? your kids took a, took a lot of time. They took some effort, Oh, for sure. One time I remember I was telling my son something, I was correcting him. We were out somewhere and then I was like, and he interrupted me he's dad, he goes. I don't mind you correcting me and giving me advice, but your tone is all wrong. What? And I was like, okay. It is brilliant to hear. I would not have picked that up myself. I thought my tone was fine. It wasn't. And your kids will, they'll, they're mirror. They'll let you know For sure. Whether it be them calling you out Yeah. or mimicking your tone. Yeah. Or you'll see it in their faces. You'll know. Yeah. When you, you need to take their feedback and you need to take that, that deep breath. Yeah. Take a, a moment and really just pause, hit that pause button. So Nick talking about your residency and your life right now. So take us through a typical day for, for you and, and how that impacts you and how that impacts your family. Yeah, I mean, the past four weeks right now we're on a trauma and acute care surgery service. So day starts at about five 30 in the morning. We're getting there, have about 30 patients that we're seeing or reviewing their charts prior to meeting as a team at 7:00 AM and then we start operating at seven 30. Hopeful to get outta there by six at night and typically doing four or five cases a day. And then right now my wife is the one relieving me at night, so I head home. And then dad duty for the night and back at it the next day. You guys remember that? Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, it was, but it was fun, you know, I mean it's its own crazy way. It's, it's absolutely, yeah. And I'm always cherish it, you know, it's just, yeah. Prior to having a child, you know, I think the hours are long, but have never had a problem with, you know, being at work too much. But now I'm just acutely aware of you know, if I leave at six, I'm home by six 30. I have an hour with him before he's going to bed, and just everything I can do to get outta work and. Last weekend we're celebrating Father's Day on a Saturday, and Jeff was like kind to do a lot of work for me to get me to the zoo with my family so I could have some like meaningful time with them. And those are those interactions that I think, yeah, you just start to cherish a lot more. And things I wouldn't have thought of, you know, at all six months ago are starting to, but as you were kind of talking about just finding that the, having meaningful interactions with your kids, that's something I've probably noticed is, is a struggle. And something that's probably cherished at work is just kind of this fast-paced environment. There's 10 different things going on at the same time between being hyper-focused on operating to 10 different consults that need to be seen to patients in the ICU or floor trying to address these issues and then getting home and then just having this singular focus of trying to be a good husband, a good father. I sometimes, well, and that's the thing is I, you know, I mean, when I was going through it I thought I was the only person in the world, right? And you realize, oh wow, there's, there's people that have had easier struggles and harder struggles and, and you, you realize. That you lean in to those? I, I remember one time the boys were no, it was just Griffin. Griffin was still a baby. And Tina would do the, you know, early morning, wake up and feed him, and then he would wake up probably around five or six and I would grab him and we'd go to a local breakfast joint. I remember sitting there giving him a bottle and I was reading the paper and having breakfast and there was an older gentleman, there was like a grandfather type and kind of comes up to the table and just looks, and he says, just enjoy this, you know, and I'm stressed out. I'm tired, right? And I'm like, what is this guy thinking about? And not that I'm a grandfather, but now I'm like, yeah, I'm that guy now. Yeah. I'm the guy looking at Nick and saying exactly what you said, Bob. Right. It, it, it's not that it's a badge of honor, but it's something that you will reflect on and say, I miss that. You know, I, I miss those moments. I miss those moments of being sleep deprived, but taking care of this child who, who loves me and I love them unconditionally. I was gonna say, those moments go fast and so you do have to appreciate each stage of your child.'cause they, they are going to grow out of that. So that's why you do wanna spend the time with them while they're in that, but knowing they're gonna grow very quickly out of that. So, yeah, just it is being present right. As much as you can It's, yeah, it's unbelievable. So, you know, going in, you wanted to be a surgeon. Yeah. And so going into this you probably had an idea of your life and what your career path or goal might have been, and then now having this family, and then I have the good fortune of knowing Maddie. She's a wonderful person. And so, and you know, you'd see Maddie and Nick together and you'd be like, of course. It's perfect sense. It makes sense. They're, they're wonderful, beautiful people. So super happy for you. Super happy for her. You're like, okay, here I go. I'm in my residency. I'm gonna just bite it off and I'm gonna, I'm gonna crush this. Yeah. And then you meet Maddie and, and you know, it changes. You couldn't look away. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And then next thing you know, now you have a child. so going back to, starting this career path as a. Surgical resident to your career path now, have you refocused, have you changed? Definitively I think yeah, without a doubt. Just realizing the impact that yeah, I think family's so important. And having her by my side, there's no way I could have ever, do what I do every day., Her support is So important to us and our family. And just, watching her be such an incredible mother, but I think you kind of get these. Bits of fatherhood from different people in your life. And that was someone that, like Jeff always stood out to me from the day I met him as like his family was always his first priority in the way, the love that he had for his wife, for his children the importance that family were being involved in. You know, these ski trips, these mountain biking things, being this dad with these teenage growing children and still being like very active involved was something that I've kind of like, looked up to and something I wanted to try to emulate. And I think that's important to find people that have kind of navigated that kind of fine balance between careers and family life and have done it well and have still been, yeah, it, I mean, it's humbling. I mean, I, you know, I, like I said, I hate, I sometimes have this imposter syndrome where I'm nick must be talking about somebody else, but you know, there's a sweet spot, right? Yeah, yeah. There's, there's a balance. And you're gonna, you're gonna find that that teeter totter is heavy on one end one day and heavy on the other end. And, and, you know, being. A good parent let it be organic. Yeah. Right. And enjoy your child and enjoy your partner. And, and ultimately that joy you get back the, the, the skiing, the mountain biking, all of that. You know, it, it's all intertwined with your work too. It's gonna make you a better clinician, a better surgeon. Your patients are gonna be in such good hands because you have taken those moments to enjoy being a parent and found the time for your family. You're gonna have some huge wins with your patients and that's gonna make you wanna be a better dad too. Yeah. Yeah. Doug, you're in college and you wanna study abroad, you've got that bug from your dad and. And now you're out traveling and I, I don't know, kids are maybe the last thing on your mind, right? So you go internationally and then you come back and you're dad. How did traveling abroad or seeing the, the world, did that impact you at all and how you approach being a parent? Yeah, definitely. I'd say a lot of it was from my travels and living in Latin America seeing how resilient humans are with very little and the care can still be the same. I remember as part of my training in the Peace Corps, we went out to do a water project, we built a little dam and ran some water to a new place. It was right on the border of Haiti. We all stayed in, of course, with locals there. And I remember the house that I lived in, a young couple and they had a newborn, several month old. And there was no cement on the floor. There was a dirt floor. And my favorite thing that I remember about that is the, the woman of the house she had such care she would sweep the floor even though it was dirt, it was impeccably clean. And she did that daily. And I was like, whoa, it doesn't matter. You can still take care of things no matter what conditions you are. You can still be a happy, wonderful person and a person of integrity no matter what you have. I had that comfort level of saying, I don't need the biggest or the greatest, or everything has to be perfect or whatever. It's okay. It's important to do our best with what we have basically. And then bringing that back to, to the states, how did you find that balance then, when you're raising your kids to try to teach them core values versus excess versus materialistic things Like how do you find a balance when you've seen what you've seen living abroad? That's a great question. Part of it was bringing the kids back to the Dominican Republic. It's great in so many ways., Latin America is so warm, they're multi-generational in the same house. The. Stereotypical parents or grandmother, will be overjoyed if the, if her daughter or granddaughter gets married and they're staying at the house, it's the total opposite of you must leave, you know? Yeah. It's like you're staying. Yes. We can help take care of each other. So this built in daycare type stuff and, I just love being exposed to that. It's a different way there's, there's trade offs as you don't have as much privacy. But the great things is you definitely the family knows each other very well and can help each other out. So where were you in your life and in your career when you found out you were gonna have a kid? I was just starting my IT career and it was a few years into marriage we used, cats as a surrogate for a few years, and then that ran out and you still do my big, my biggest fear it truly is, it sounds so silly, but was to be able to afford diapers. And I've been tracking how much diapers cost for a couple years and I'm like, that expense per week Is more than I have. That's all. And then you make it happen. To your point, is you realize how resilient you are and how resourceful you are in every walks of life. So beyond diapers I mean, did you see yourself as a dad? What kind of dad did you wanna be? Oh, that is a profound question. What I do remember is when my son Roger was born it was a life altering moment and I finally truly had something more important and beyond myself. So that it's okay to have an ego, it's okay to want things for yourself, but just, separating that where you actually have something more important was the most freeing experience I've had in my life. And I remember it was at Swedish Hospital, and I remember walking around the hallways. I, I think I went to get, a little stuffed animal for my wife or something. I was just beaming so much that every person I came into contact was smiling and they, like they could tell that new father vibe or whatever. Yeah, yeah. That I literally could not find someone that wasn't like, how are you? Yeah. Before I saw them, before they turned the corner. Seriously. It was unbelievable. Imagine being that person without being a new father.. Paying that forward out on the street., That would be intense. We used to play games with the boys, see how many people you could get to smile or say hi. Bob, soccer in your life, I'm surprised you are not you. That wasn't your career path. You know, it's a side hustle, I suppose. Took a long break from soccer, was kind of burned out after college and did other things, many other things. Was excited to be in Chicago and experience that city with my wife Emily. And and then relocating out here, getting a dog. So there were five years of dog in Colorado and then we took some time off to do some traveling in the US in Asia and Europe before we had kids. That was a conscious effort. My son Ethan was born in November of 2001, so we had traveled took about four months off to do some traveling in that previous fall. So like roughly labor day of 2000 until the end of the year came back and started working again. And I think we were ready at that point. I mean, it had been five years we'd been married for four years, living in Colorado. The dog was our, really, our first kid. In effect. And then you think about the world at that time too, and thinking back on it and thinking about nine 11, 2001 Our first child is on his way. And then that's happening. And even now, looking back on that point in time, this is no controversy here. The world shifted dramatically at that point in many ways for us emotionally and child on the way. So, we were ready, we were excited and not really apprehensive at all. And Doug, everything Doug's describing and that you're describing Nick was just kind of riding a wave then. you get a little nostalgic about, you see the old photos and you're like wow, that was such a fun trip. Or, that was such a fun time, or a fun phase and yeah. But then shift back and it's well that's, that's now is a new and exciting phase Kids becoming a young adults is very interesting'cause they're. Our three are are pretty independent they're out. I've got, sons in Alaska now, and both daughters are at CU Boulder and excited about it. So we're just there to kind of now more of a support structure for them and, and also that front row seat watching the show, but being ready to help. They still need help in different ways, various ways, surprising ways sometimes. and Bob, you we joked earlier, you know, in, in the, in our community that you're retired, but you retired from one career and you, you're, you're a person who can't sit on their hands, so you jumped into another. You were working with at and t That's right. In energy and supply chain and facil like mission critical facilities. Supply chain was something that I focused on in college because it made sense. It was a pragmatic thing to study. Yeah. And I, I, I was a soccer player, first and foremost at the time, and had an amazing group of teammates and friends in college and just had a blast in college. But eventually got kind of burned out from soccer. There wasn't a lot of opportunity. Really didn't appear to be anyway to me right outta college. I would say that establishing independence not just financially, but then just being kind of cut loose from family and being out on your own. I mean, that's a rush too. That's exciting. Just kind of figuring that out in a big city and enjoying the big city. Enjoying Chicago's wonderful. It's one of my favorite cities on earth. I was plenty occupied and plenty satisfied. I think just enjoying that time of life. And the job in a corporate structure. Lots of great mentors. Looking back on that, at the time, I didn't necessarily explicitly think of somebody as a mentor, but I do now. And there are dozens of those. Super grateful. And I can see their faces, I can remember moments on the job. It wasn't really explicit mentorship, but it was in effect. It's a silent language. With those people in your life. It, that probably wasn't their intention. They were just being good people and enjoyed your company and being good leaders too. I mean, you know, that was a lot of times they were just doing their thing and so it was by example and it did, didn't even know I was observing. You're carrying that forward. So now, now you've left that corporate world and now what's your, what's your new adventure? Well, the, I I would describe, I mean, soccer has become kind of a, kind of a, not really side hustle, but it's something, I mean, we just finished up two weeks of summer soccer camps at City Park, and it's mostly high school and college kids running the whole thing. And we just are a small team of us partners and sponsors that help bring the resources to the camp that are necessary for it to be successful for the kids to have a good time at the camp. So soccer in the mornings, it's pretty focused on soccer. And then there's a break, and then there's steam activities in the afternoon. So it's like filmmaking or just watching a film or conservation or art. There's just endless great partners in the city to, to bring into the mix there to kind of blend. Two and a half, three hours of soccer is plenty of soccer in summertime in the morning. But I've, I've also established, I wouldn't really call it retirement. I mean, I've got a ways to go. I've got plenty of excitement and enthusiasm about what's ahead. And so I've got an independent company that's essentially a consulting firm in, in roughly the same space that I've spent most of my career in, around, around mission critical buildings and energy management. Doug's in the energy business as well, and he and I have kind of discovered that commonality since mm-hmm. Getting into the music and you know, it's, it probably probably draws a lot of yawns around dinner table conversations, so I don't normally bring it, bring it up. I'm, I'm a nerd, I'm an energy nerd. That's awesome. So, it's, it's something that I just kind of more quietly focus on and it and it's fun and exciting in many ways. And it's got, there's, there's a sense of purpose there as well, kind of broader purpose behind that work. All right. This is that time in the podcast for a fun little segment where I get to ask our guests, even put them on the spot, a favorite moment or fun fact about themselves. So I'll go ahead and start with you, Doug. How about a favorite, uh, movie? Star Wars, I think. All right. So who'd you go with? I went with my family and it was in the Cooper Theater. It's not there anymore. It was on Colorado Boulevard. It's this big cool ranch. I think I was in like fifth or sixth grade or something like that. Right? Yeah. Right. Yep. Nick, your first movie. I wanna say et but that's getting pretty wasn't Jurassic Park or something? Would you have been in the movie theater? I think, yeah. So my grandpa used to take us, they had these reruns at our local community theater that was like half an hour away. Awesome. It was like the first memories of these like classics. Cool. That were through like your grandfather's amazing. And what do you remember about the theater? Anything that sparks out? Like a smell, a taste and this, yeah. Just that fake butter on the popcorn. Red velvet seats. Like Victorian movie theater. Nice. Auction every winter. I think we wanted a toboggan one year and that was just like, but every Sunday, We'd go to the movies with my grandpa. Fantastic. Watch these old classics. Nice. I love it. Old classics. So you hear that guy's old classic et Bob, how about you? First movie? I think it was Star Wars as well, is the one I that comes to mind. But it was actually the experience before that I know of Going to drive-ins, drive-in theaters. Just backing in and, popping the hatch or in the station wagon or whatever, who knows what we were driving. Then just loading up pillows, popcorn, and just kicking back outside, watching movies on a big screen. That was right. More about the atmosphere than Yeah. Sometimes the movie, right? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It's funny, I don't remember specifically the movies. The drive-ins.'Cause I know Star Wars was inside a theater in 77 ish or whenever that was. I was seven or eight. Right. Talk about like your parents at least in my case parents are neighbors. Letting you explore. We're gonna go get some popcorn or something, and come back an hour later, It just is amazing. It's like I survived. Doug, you know, did you, did you have a community early and, and if you had a community, how, how'd you find a community? Wow. Those are profound questions you could have sent me that ahead of time would been helpful. You know, whether it be like, I mean, Peter seems like a great guy. I don't know what he's like as an uncle. Absolutely. Yeah. He's been fabulous. You know, your, your parents. I'm blessed. Yeah. Your parents are lovely people. They are. I, I can't imagine them not being great grandparents and very supportive of you. And then, your energy and your vibe so heartwarming. I can't imagine that people aren't just drawn to you to, to support you however you need it. That's so sweet of you. Yeah. Thank you. De definitely have a great family and they have been there for me through thick and thin for sure. And also pushed me in very good directions. I found community in the band and also in Park Hill is truly remarkable. Your kids, go to school together, parents are very artistic, and they're very involved in their parents' lives and stuff like that. So I've just always admired getting to know Park Hill through you guys and the community that it is. I did have, yeah, my community was more of a, well, it's, I've had some great friends over the years as well. From Indiana and from college, from Barcelona and through work as well. The community support for you and Tina and Griff and Brody was remarkable like that. And it wasn't totally surprising. It was just mind blowing of how much a community could be there for someone sincerely. And I was part of that. Right. Doug, you're so right. After Tina and I moved from Los Angeles to Denver, we then, we had our boys Griffin and Brody. We, we didn't really have a community here. We had left that community of friends in Los Angeles, and so when it came time to figure out how to raise our boys, we didn't, we didn't consult books. Instead, we observed others and learned from both positive and negative experiences. We were. We were fortunate to find an amazing community here, and largely, you know, that's because of Tina. Um, she, she taught me to lead with love and, and not fear. And so when, when you open your heart and you're genuine, friends will come and go depending on, on your level of vulnerability and authenticity. Um, so yeah, you're completely right. I could not have navigated, um, our experiences. I mean, especially in our darkest time when. When our son Brody died, I, I couldn't have, I couldn't have survived that time without this amazing community. Thank you for joining us on the second segment of growth, vulnerability, and balancing life. In this episode, we delved into the complexities of balancing demanding careers with family life. Our speakers emphasize the critical roles of trust and consistency in parenting and relationships. They shared personal antidotes concerning career choices, dedicated family time, and the evolving nature of children, and the profound impact of mentors and community. Next time on Beyond our Surface, we continue with our final segment we explore community and the life balance through personal stories, Doug, Nick and Bob discuss the importance of supportive communities, especially during grief and how authenticity strengthens relationships. They offer parenting insights, emphasizing listening to children, patience and learning from mistakes. The conversation also covers navigating external pressures, maintaining wellbeing, and valuing experiences and human connection over material pursuits with travel, hobbies and music, serving as rejuvenation. Thank you for listening to Beyond Our Surface. If you enjoy this episode and would like to support the future of this podcast, please consider contributing to beyond our surface.com. Thank you and take care.