Episode 4: Growth, Vulnerability,& Balancing Life (3 of 3)

Transcript

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Hello, and welcome back to Beyond Our Surface. I'm Jeff Huber. This episode marks the conclusion of our three-part series, growth, vulnerability, and Balancing Life. Our journey began with Doug, Nick, and Bob in episode one. Where they explored their childhoods, the profound influence of sports and mentors, and their initial attempts to balance demanding careers with family life. Episode two shifted focus to the complexities of balancing careers and family. Featuring Nick, a surgical resident alongside reflections from seasoned parents, Doug and Bob. They highlighted the critical importance of trust, consistency, and vulnerability in both parenting and other relationships. They also stressed that achieving personal fulfillment hinges on maintaining balance, actively seeking support, and cherishing each phase of life. In this episode, we'll explore the profound impact of community, the power of vulnerability, and the ongoing journey of balancing career and family. From navigating personal loss to finding authenticity in professional settings, our guests share deeply personal stories about building supportive relationships, learning from unexpected mentors, and adapting to life's constant. Changes. Join us as we delve into the essential role of connection and self-awareness in creating a fulfilling and meaningful life. Gentlemen, I can't thank you enough for being here and being part of this series. It means the world to me. In, in our last episode, we talked about how after moving to Denver. Tina and I built a, a strong community which was especially important when raising our boys, Griffin and Brody, and that Tina taught me to lead with love, opening our hearts to genuine connections. I had said, this community proved invaluable, particularly during our darkest time when, when Brody died. I couldn't have survived without. This incredible community. So today I wanted to delve into a topic that is profoundly personal and, and important to me the critical role of community and the power of support, especially in times of grief. I could not have done or gone through what we have gone through without this community. Going back to work was scary. I took three months off after Brody died, and I didn't know how I was gonna do it, when tough times happen in life those people dropped everything and they weren't surgeons. They became my friends and they, they became a safe place for me to go. And, and then that's where I learned a huge lesson, from, putting on my, badge of a physician assistant going into this really tough trauma world, I then could say, I don't need to wear that facade. I can just be who I am. I can, I can laugh, I can cry, I can be vulnerable. It didn't scare anybody away. If anything, it actually brought people closer to me it really was enlightening and it was refreshing,?'cause there's, you walk through those double doors sometimes and you don't know what's on the other side. So you put up that armor, you put on that armor to protect yourself, and then you just keep going through that, through a long period of time and you're afraid to take that armor off. And one person takes off the armor and then you're like, oh wow. It's okay to take off. It's okay to, to be this person. It's okay to, to share. Nick, you're a long ways from home. You don't have a home yet, right? You, where you grew up as home. Yeah. I get that. But you're, you're navigating your way through the world and, and once you get done with John Hopkins and do we know what Maddie's up for? She's interviewing now in Baltimore for Okay. Yeah. Two trauma fellowships at Hopkins and Shock. So, so then after, after that, then we're in the world. Do you wanna be Yeah, I don't. I don't know. I think we're kind of both nomads at heart and kind of to Doug's point, I think just this opportunity of being young and having children is kinda this unique window of to travel and see the world. And I think ideally we would both love to do, a few months abroad every year and try to get out and kinda mission work in Africa or something that would be unique. But yeah, there's so many opportunities and places to go and it really depends on job opportunities when you're finishing fellowship and what you're looking for with that kind of career life balance and finding a good spot. We're not really tied down to any, like specific region or country. And I guess that's kinda the unique part of medicine is mm-hmm. You apply for these different positions and Denver, Baltimore is kind of all chosen based on this computer algorithm that spits these places out that you go, but you go and you meet these amazing people and yeah. And your communities will. Be established. Yeah. And they'll always be there. Yeah. Right. This community you have here is gonna always be here. Yeah. We were joking the other day. We ran into a difficult situation with a, a difficult boss, and I looked at Nick and I'm like, I will find you and slap you upside the head. I don't care where you are. If you ever become like this. So that, that community will always be there. These relationships will always, will always be there. Yeah. And your kids are gonna define that too. Yeah. You're gonna want the best for your kids. So what I found is is you're gonna make sacrifices for your kids and, and your kids are gonna make sacrifices for you. Yeah. One of the reasons why we didn't want to have kids initially when we were in LA is one we didn't think anybody in LA has kids. And then we had we had a friends who we went to the beach and their kid was, was an infant. And it was like noon. And our friends are like, okay, we gotta go. And I'm like, where you going? Well, little little Johnny needs his nap. And I'm like. You're at a beach with an umbrella. They left. And I looked at my, at Tina and I'm like, we're never having kids. I don't want this to be my life. Yeah. And then, and then we had a apartment party in, in LA and two of our friends who were from here, that Tina went to high school with they showed up we're having a party having drinks and there's 20, 30 people in our apartment. And I look over at Todd and I'm like, Hey, where's, where's your daughter She was like, two. He goes, oh, she's asleep on the, on the coats on your bed. I'm like, maybe it's doable. Maybe maybe we could. And that's what I, I learned, yeah. We will make sacrifices for our kids and our kids will make sacrifices for us. That's what builds this strength within a family is the respect for each other. Yeah. For your children, for your spouse. And then, your community will build wherever you plant. Yeah, absolutely. And that's gonna be so exciting to, to watch you grow and, you've got us, and then you're gonna find other people along your way that's gonna be really help you out a ton. Yeah. I think Doug had a astute point with you You find a way to make it happen. And I was in the same mindset of, you can't raise kids on a resident salary and we needed more resources and more, but yeah, when they come it's just anything you can do. You find a way to navigate it and make it happen. Yeah, for sure. One thing that was, I guess, yeah, probably more nerve wracking for me was finding out that I was having a son and of three fathers. Is that something that, you know, mentioning like our role models and people that had the most impactful. I guess, yeah. Biggest impact on us was our fathers. And is that something that I guess I've been mindful of with a newborn and trying to navigate that, but, I feel daughter you love unconditionally and I felt somehow more comfortable in that role than is a kind of this new father that this is someone who's gonna kind of look up to and emulate and how you interact with don't fake it. In the sense of you don't have to pretend to be somebody you're not. Yeah. You're your kid, you're a good person, and so your kid is going to emulate you. He's, he's gonna take what you know, you're good, you're bad, make decisions and navigate their way. And I, I just felt being authentic. Really being open, listening to my kids and the authenticity I think is really what was my path. Bob, you've coached a lot of kids and, through that path, whether it be from, soccer, high school, college and then raising kids, you've seen parents, you've seen yourself, anything that, that you could recommend or you would, you would advise as far as parenting, whether it be a boy or a girl? Yeah, I could, I think a big eye opener was whether it was coaching or parenting along the way. It was just that kids are amazingly smart and resilient and they're, they're pretty dialed in, pretty clever. And just accepting that, that, that it's reciprocal, that there was a lot to become, like becoming a parent was like becoming a student. And there was some shift there where I actually, I actually, I recognized it that way and now, now it's easy to recognize it that way. To this day you get some of the best feedback if you're open to it from, from your kids, that you're gonna get from anybody. Yeah. On, whether or not something's effective or something. You've gotta scrap this and learn from it.'cause it just shifted style of communications. Or like letting go and less control controlling the controllables, which are few and far between, as it turns out with kids and with life in general. Anyway. Yeah, change is the only constant. Those are big takeaways. Coaching was, was a fun surprise'cause I just thought, well this will be great. We'll a bunch of 5-year-old boys and there, there were eight or 10 boys initially on when I fir got back into the game after 10 years or so away from the game. And I just thought, well, we're just gonna play soccer here. But this thing turned into a little classroom, and we didn't refer to it that way, but that's how it certainly looks now. Yeah. And and we still run into, we still, I still see a lot of the kids Yeah. That come back and even kids that you didn't realize that you had any influence or effect on that might have been with us for a year or two and they're still involved in the game or other sports or other things, or now they're coaching and now they're playing. And so I think that was a big thing, just a shift from authority figure to more not necessarily peer, but in a sense a student of that in that role is a, somebody they're counting on to kind of structure and facilitate, but they're also counting on you to listen and learn. I mean there's a lot of external pressures in our world, That, kinda, there's always an earpiece, someone, suggesting writing about it, telling you how you should be and think, and how. Doug, how do you find yourself or do you find a struggle to stay authentic to your beliefs, to your heart? When, when all these external pressures are all all around us I think I've learned over the years that you have to be authentic, and that's like almost the only way to go through life for the benefit of your kids and anyone else. It reminds me of what Bob was talking about at some point. I feel like I've been good with kids for a very long time. Something clicked in me, I don't remember when, but I truly listen to them when they're very kid and I treat them as if they are an adult. And I, I think I, I think it goes back to when I was a kid and I remember some people in my life that listened to me as, they didn't treat me as just a kid that doesn't know anything, but actually as another thoughtful being, right? And so that change, just so, I've definitely learned over the years from my father and from other. People of how to be more patient and rolling with things as they go versus trying to fight the current, so to speak, and, and just have more patience truly in difficult situations and stuff like this. Also going back to the work thing too same thing. I, I've learned that from some great colleagues over the years. Managers when something really heavy happened, they don't panic and they are very levelheaded and they don't rush to judge and they look, they're even keeled as they collect information, right. I see a lot of similarities in professional life and personal life in terms of just being authentic, being a person of integrity, listening before judging, and and never trying to have a bias or something where you're trying to shade some outcome or whatever. Just you truly, if you're really working for the wellbeing of who you're with or whatever, then it makes. Collecting information and decisioning easy. There was never a book on how to be a parent. It was just, passed down and, my parents' generation sometimes the answer was no. Mm-hmm. Right? And, and there was no explanation. And, and you talk about mentors, to me, mentors were ones that actually listened to me. That actually allowed me to have a voice and, and say my, give my opinion, whether it was right or wrong, I knew that they knew, I knew that they probably had the answer, and I would, I was going to them, but they allowed me to, to talk out loud and either say, yep, that's right, or no, let me tell you why. But they, they gave me a voice, which helped me then maybe even build my confidence to, to be able to kind of put that my foot through the door without being afraid to do it, but. But yeah, the mentors were the ones that listened. And I think that's a, I think that's a great point. Absolutely. Any, any any regrets, Bob, any, anything? You look back and you can say, boy, I wish I would've done that a little bit different. I would say that just learning, not regret just giving yourself some, some space, looking back at that time in life and, and understanding why the mistakes were made is important. The thing I mentioned earlier about you guys have experienced this too, is overreacting to something and and then learning to remember that and don't overreact so fast. Like you Doug's just talking about collecting information and being levelheaded. It rarely pays to react right away to something. But it's good to be respon, like slow response is good and, and learn from mistakes. But I regret's a tough, that's a tough thing. It's a tough word to, to agree with, you know. There, there were definitely moments where I say lost my temper as a, as a parent, like I'd mentioned earlier. And that was the, I guess the one big realization was like, the thing where you're, you're already this authority figure. You're big and influential, physically big, right? You're towering over the kid to begin with and they did something wrong. And so patients and let them, let them learn, it's, you're, you're kind of responsible for the classroom and the quality of the classroom, but not necessarily enforcement, Nick, being who you are now, where you are now in your life, if you could look into the future and talk to your future self, any advice that you could, that's cool, You're gonna ha you're gonna get tunnel vision. You're gonna really focus in on that career and so you take those moments of mindfulness and say, Hey, future self. Yeah. I, I, yeah, it's tough. I would say just the importance of surrounding yourself with good people and people that push you to be a better person. And yeah. I think even looking back the past 15 years, when things have gone off track versus when things have gone well, it's just having a good support system and people that you can turn to and, and Yeah. That support you Well, and I think I was very focused on undertaking as many experiences as I could when I was younger, which I think probably has a, a time in everyone's life. But really the the interaction that you have with people and the connection that you have with people is by far the most meaningful thing that I've countered to date. And trying to maintain that going forward in a, pretty fast paced world. And yeah, I think that's what I would probably recommend. I can't say enough about community. I can't say enough about asking for help, I'm not the old wise guy sitting up on the hill divvying out advice. But I can tell you that I went through a very, very hard one. You don't wish this upon your enemy. The hardest thing ever for a parent is to lose a child. It really strips you down and makes you, humble. You're vulnerable, you're scared and you really don't give a shit what people are saying about you. You take inventory on your community. Yeah. And you really look around and realize that life is short and that that it's okay to ask for help because you know you're gonna go a day, a month, a year, a decade without asking for help. And then you finally do, and you're like, I wasted all that time. I wasted all that time. So I think that, community old or new is very helpful. You guys have been around the block a little bit. You've built up communities, you've seen what I've gone through. You've been through this with me. Any advice on a community? Any advice on being vulnerable? when we first got to Denver, for example, we, we talk about this as being, we were pretty anonymous. We'd had a handful of friends that had relocated here, or even many of them temporarily, and then they were back east or west or wherever they had reloaded from. So it was a temporary stay. That's a dramatic difference from then till now where we're fortunate to have, go out for a walk and we'll say hi to, half dozen friends and neighbors, and that's a, there's a really cool sense of security and confidence there. Just even on our block, we've been in the same house for 20 years, since oh five, and in the same neighborhood for, since 98, so 27 years. And sometimes you look back and think, well that was nice to be anonymous too. It was nice to go explore this city and not have obligations per se, other than the obvious ones like work, maintaining a household, and then what are we gonna do this weekend? Now that it seems like there's, the calendar's always loaded up with, with commitments, and if I look at those commitments, we've been selective about those commitments. They're, they're great commitments. But being open to it's a diverse, it's a fairly diverse neighborhood too, so very different from say, college or in your twenties when you're, you tend to be, if you're, I'm sure in medical school, you've got that in common with people you're surrounded with. And then there's that, I forget who said it about you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like we've always said, even our immediate core family is, there's five of us. Let's always be a, a safe place to come and regenerate. Even if he has a tiny window, like you've talked about you're in med school, you can count on a half hour window or one hour time with your son and just be totally present. Make that regenerative. Yeah. Obviously habits and rituals that you develop, got a, a subset of those that are daily, count on'em every day, good sleep and all the usual suspects of hydration and nutrition and everything. But also just a, a routine that's, there's a block of selfish time, if you will, where it's no, this is gonna happen. Every, whatever your, religious or spiritual or emotional habits or rituals are, or background is. Have those and commit to'em and, and own them on a daily basis. I think for, for me, it's been critical. Yeah. Is that something that's been, I guess, challenging to navigate or, I find that's the first thing that is sacrificed is sleep your wellbeing, exercise when things get. Is that something that's been pretty consistent throughout from college to fatherhood through work with soccer and fitness? And I know Jeff is and him and his wife are both involved in that, but yeah. Time management is, sounds cliche, but just like even little habits, like looking ahead on a Sunday at the week, and just saying, okay, what, what does this next week look like? And how vigilant will I be about this block of time where it's a, it used to be running was the thing, like it was a, a good, hard run every day or, or get on a bike. That gets tougher as you get hip surgery. And you get into your fifties and, and okay, now what's it gonna be? So there's what's gonna replace that meditative? For 20 years it was that. Yeah. And so then, okay. Prepare to shift into new things that accomplish the same outcome.'cause things change physically, of course. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to go back and thinking about that. Yeah. I wanted to talk about the micro community of our band mm-hmm. That we had especially, we'd been together. We, it's been about six and a half years total. And so how long before Brody? We'd been together roughly a couple years before Brody, came down. Right. And we, it was such a joy to provide that one hour or three hours for you to, and you taught me the phrase Holding hold space. Yeah. Holding space. And I remember, the, of course, there's so much going on in your life, and we're very caring, empathetic people. We're all parents and, and then I remember, sometimes you would say to Tina, I don't know if I should go or not. And then Tina's go, yeah. It was that space where we could hold you and music forces you to be present, especially if you're in a band and playing original music, and you're reacting to each other. And there was so many times, right, that was that whole year. Plus, there was, we were channeling this incredible energy and love and of the community and but it was a privilege to just be part of your circle, one of your circles to hold space for you, no matter how you felt. I'm so fortunate to have had the band, we choose our friends, like you said, we're the average of the five people, right? So you choose the people that you feel comfortable with who reflect who you are a little bit, right? And so that's my community is maybe you guys are who I am and I'm who, who you are, right? And so we're kind of an average of, of, of all, of ourselves. That's who we're drawn to, And so, after Brody died, I was grieving hard and there was moments I didn't wanna get out of bed. And, it was time for band practice. And Tina knows you all so well too. So she would say, go, go to band practice. Yeah. And, there were times where, I would cry. You guys would be, emotional with me. And and it was just so therapeutic All right, it's time for a fun segment where I get to ask our guests to share a favorite moment or a fun fact about themselves. Getting to put them on the spot a little bit. How about a dream travel destination for the worldly Doug dream trip? Oh, whoa. Dream trip would probably be back to Spain Barcelona. And there's some beautiful towns outside of Madrid Toledo and Segovia and just like really just gorgeous. It's fun to be in a different country. I'm more into not traveling lately'cause I just like to, I'm zenning just, keeping the trains running and travel. I admire people that can check out and do travel. That is beautiful. And it, it is inspiring. And I loved hearing what you're saying about truly, truly with your wife and stuff like this. There, there's a time to be adventurous. Yeah. And explore the world. I do love that. Where I'm at right now, I do have commitments that are better managed if I don't travel. For me, music for so many years, that's my little slice of vacations. Last Nirvana, every rehearsal. For me I don't need to travel if I'm doing that. So I travel musically nick, dream trip for you. Yeah, we got a couple coming up. We're lucky we're gonna go to Croatia in September. We both have a week off together and sweet. And yeah, go there for a week and then you already have it planned. We have it planned and then we never got a honeymoon'cause we're both working and yeah, yeah. I barely got the weekend off for the wedding. you bring in your child or no? Yeah. Gonna bring him and yeah, and then Japan in April for two weeks and Oh, nice. Wow. Yeah, that'd be a first time for us. Yeah. Yeah. Try to get yeah. Hopping around a little bit. Very fun. Yeah. How about you Bob? I guess it's, that I have to think about my wife'cause I, I enjoy traveling with her. Enjoy traveling with family too. It's. We went to Mexico last year to Ulta, and that was an amazing, just even six days as a family. But it would be, it would be the two of us together probably. So it'd probably be, for me, it would be Costa Rica. Mm. Extended stay. Mm-hmm. Like half a year or something, if that was doable. To Doug's point, music's vacation, playing live music, listening to music every day. Music's sanctuary for sure. And it's travel and it always has been travel to me, but I. I would say Costa Rica would be a dream scenario. Also, the US I think getting, getting in a, and I've never convinced Emily to do this, but you need an rv. She's made that very clear, that every time I see a camper van, I'm like, what, what is there not to love about that camper van? Yeah. And just like packing up and traveling with a couple bikes and, and the van and go, have you changed your mind yet? I'm waiting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not very convincing on that front. I guess so. Right. You need a community to help out. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I'll be recruiting some helpers for that. And so we have arrived at the profound conclusion of beyond our surface in the three part series, growth, vulnerability, and Balancing Life. This has been more than just a three-part series. It has been an extraordinary odyssey, a tapestry woven with threads of candid conversations, deeply personal reflections and heartfelt narratives. From the very onset, our intention was to delve into the intricate dance of human experience, exploring the courage it takes to embrace vulnerability. The continuous journey of personal growth and the delicate art of harmonizing the various facets of our lives. My deepest gratitude to Bob, Nick, and Doug. Their generosity knew no bounds as they fearlessly laid, bare Their experiences shared their hard won insights, and imparted their invaluable wisdom. It is truly humbling to witness such an unwavering commitment to authenticity. Your willingness to be so profoundly open to share, not just the triumphs, but also the struggles and the lessons learned, this series, has explored themes that touch the core of the human condition, the courage to strip away the societal mass and to find a rewarding path of self-discovery and the constant striving for equilibrium in a world that often demands so much. We've heard stories of overcoming adversity, finding strength in imperfection, and the transformative power of genuine connection. First and foremost, I wanna extend my deepest gratitude to the incredible podcast community of my cherished friends and my loving family for all their unwavering support. This journey into the world of podcasting has been a true awakening filled with so much fun and discovery. As of this episode, we've surpassed 500 downloads and I'm so excited to continue exploring and navigating this space, bringing meaningful ideas to our listeners, In the upcoming episodes, we will be focusing on the profound topic of grief. I'll begin with a solo journey, a personal essay of sorts where I share my relationship with grief. My hope is that by opening up my heart, we can begin to unpack this universal emotion and pave the way for future conversations in the upcoming weeks, i'll be joined by three incredible guests who will share their own unique relationships with grief and their connection to my son Brody. Thank you for listening to Beyond Our Surface. Visit my website for more information about the podcast and to join the Beyond our Surface Community for my Weekly newsletter. If you enjoy this podcast and wanna support its future, please consider contributing to beyond our surface.com. Thank you and take care.