Episode 36: Why white belts SHOULD teach other white belts | The role of reflection on the mats

Tim and Adam discuss a common situation: White belts giving feedback and advice to other white belts. They discuss the role and importance of peer feedback among junior students, and the place it should take up within a class.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Welcome back to the Open Mat podcast. My name is Tim. My name is Adam. And today, Adam, I want to ask, even though I already know, for new people to the sport, white belts, brand new people just kind of exploring the environment of jujitsu, who are the best coaches? And I already know because other white belts are obviously the best coaches, aren't they, Adam? White belts talking to one another, coaching one another, teaching jujitsu to one another, it's a foolproof system, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 0:50

I mean, I think I think you are your own best coach, but otherwise, sure. Then white belts.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

Yeah, exactly. And uh it's it's one of the many things I think that people thumb their nose at, and that part of that's a joke. But the point of this podcast, if you weren't able to tell by the title that we put on it, is that I really think that we need to stop shaming white belts and stop telling white belts not to coach one another, because I think that's a really important part of learning jujitsu as a white belt. And I really do think, even though obviously the upper belts, and especially the coach and especially the black belts, they know more jujitsu, they've been through more jujitsu, they have better directly applicable advice than other white belts do. I think we are robbing our students and stunting their growth by telling them at white belt and early blue belt or whatever junior rank you want to cut this off at that they can't talk to one another about technique, they can't try to correct one another. And we'll go into why I think that is. Uh, but it is controversial. It is something that not a lot of people, I think out of the gate would agree with me on. Uh, but it's something that I believe in enough that I'm trying to remember, it's been a long time. And Adam, you might remember when this started, or around when it started, but for a very long time, as I ran my classes ecologically, I don't answer as the coach any questions until the very end of class. And before I'll answer any questions, I'll have the the people that have worked together the whole class, the pairs, talk to one another, coach one another, and work through problems with one another, even if it's two white belts. And I won't jump in and I won't try to correct them. Um and so I'll get into why I think that is, but I'm curious, Adam, because you took over directly from me, have you continued to do that? Have you made adjustments to that? Or what what are your specific thoughts on just kind of that as a part of class?

SPEAKER_01 2:45

I keep it in occasionally. Um, and it's largely not because I don't think it's a good idea, but mainly based on the time constraints that we have. So if there is time where we have a few extra minutes after the end of class, I will uh I'll I'll I'll still do that sometimes, or I will just kind of open it up for uh like a large group question. If anybody has a question they want to open up to the large group, um I'll either do that or have them sit in their pairs kind of that they they worked with. So uh so yes, I still do it, but not every class.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Okay. Uh and that by itself too is a cheat code. If you're listening and you coach any classes, there's a trend where you'll say, Hey, are there any questions? And there's never any questions, or there's a question about like something that's a really safe, like, oh, you showed this, can you show that again thing? If you want the real questions, you have to make your students uncomfortable. And so, Adam, I know you remember this, but I would leave a window of time that was like the same every class for when people would ask me questions, and I would briefly say, Hey, now it's opened up to questions, and also we have whether it was five or six or seven more minutes left. If nobody asks any questions, I'm going to stand in silence and stare at you for the entire seven minutes, and class isn't done until then. So when I say I would have that as part of every class, basically what we would do is uh I've mentioned this in other episodes. We would play about six games, right? So we'd we'd play five constrained games uh throughout the class with the aim, you know, three of them are set on a specific topic, whether it's guard retention or guard passing or leg locks or armbars, whatever it is. Three of those games are meant to develop a specific skill. Two of those games that follow after that are much more open-ended and it's much more big picture. Just generally passing the guard however you want to, or generally this or generally that. And then the sixth uh period, the sixth little uh increment of time is just an open roll. And so I would try to leave about 10 or 12 minutes of class, and at the very end, I would do my question thing. But for six minutes, I would say after the open roll, okay, uh before we ask any questions to me, I want everybody to sit with your partner, try to learn something new. Ask questions, answer questions, make observations. Uh, you can talk, you can drill without resistance, you can you can get a little bit of light resistance, you can roll if you want to. I don't care. But stick with your partner and try to learn one more thing from class. Um, and you know, I think that's intuitive when we talk about purple belts and brown belts and black belts. I don't think anybody has any issues with that. But the point of this episode coming back full circle is even with the brand new people, even with the white belts, I think it's so important that we allow them to collect their thoughts and organize their thoughts and communicate that. Um, because I think anybody who's taught jujitsu, like you actually taught a class, after a certain number of classes you teach, you start to realize, wow, I'm actually learning a lot. Like my jujitsu is improving because of the way that I have to collect and organize my thoughts to articulate them. We're giving our brand new people that same opportunity without the high stakes of them leading a class and having like the uh the intellectual authority of being like, oh wow, he's saying this, so it must be right, which to some degree happens when you're teaching a whole class. But if it's just two white belts talking through and one white belt caught the other white belt or swept them or got guard back, they're like, oh, here's how I did this. And technically it's miles away from being correct. But it lets them organize their thoughts, it lets them have an open and honest discussion. Um, and so again, I think that's so important to keep in. I think that's so important to allow and to nurture. Because at a certain point, if you correct a technique, and a technique has to be corrected, uh, whether it's an eco-class or however else you run it, the white belts will listen to you as a black belt more than they'll listen to their white belt peers. But they they should be able to ask questions directly to a peer, to uh, you know, to get the question answered, like, hey, I felt this. What was that? And also to continue on this topic to organize their thoughts. That's so important. And so I've said the same thing a couple times in a row around organizing thoughts, but that's that's I think the crux of why this is so important and why I'm very against taking that away from them and criticizing them or shaming them or saying, hey, you don't know enough jujitsu to do this yet. You know, ask a coach. Because the the mental engagement, something that for the last I don't even know, nine months or so, however long we've been recording this podcast, we've really harped on. But that's one of the easiest ways that we can go about doing that. Um, is is allowing them to organize their thoughts and kind of engage with those thoughts in that way. And so, Adam, I never coached you as a white belt. Um, and I would speak to my experience if I'd really ever had a coach do this until I was a brown belt or a black belt. Well, I take that back. I was coaching like right when I turned bluebelt, I think a little bit at white belt. So I had that. But when I was in a class, and that that's the coaching part's its own topic, but when I was in a class, I never really was empowered to talk to my peers and like try to talk about technique as a white belt or an early blue belt to my peers. And so when you came in, Adam, I don't know if you were a brand new bluebelt, but you didn't have any stripes on your belt at that point. How did you approach that? Did you get a benefit from that? Did you see other people around you getting a benefit from that? Or like what was that experience like? Because I think that's really important too to talk about the experience of this for the people that that are kind of being forced into these conversations and not allowed to have the out of asking the instructor, being forced to try to troubleshoot them and their partner.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Yeah, I I think it was helpful. Um, I don't think you were doing it like when I first started training with you. You started to implement it at some point, I don't know when, but I I think it it helped me. I can speak mainly to my experience more than others, but it helped me even think about, you know, the games a little bit more and be a little bit more tactical with what I was doing. It helped me kind of more understand, I guess, what and why I was doing things. Or in the there were some cases I would realize, you know, my partner would be like, hey, what were you doing? Um in this position. I'm like, I honestly, I don't really know, but I was just trying to like keep your feet off of me, right? If we were trying to pass or something like that. And and so that helped me kind of realize that like the importance of having a focus. So that's I think one of the biggest things that helped me was like realize these ways to focus your attention or or task focuses, whatever you want to call them, these goals as we roll, um are super important because sometimes that's like all I was thinking of, and I wasn't even thinking of a technique or anything like that. Um it also helped me when I was gonna start coaching, it helped me uh, like you said, start to organize my thoughts, start to understand a little bit better, like why we're doing something or why did I move the way I am. Um and I would I would think that's probably where it was beneficial for other people too, right? I mean, you already touched on the organizing thoughts and the mental engagement, but it it really does force people to think about and reflect on what they just did, right? Um so I think a lot of people, myself included, sometimes will go and we'll roll and we'll have a good practice and then we drive away. And if we turn a music on or listen to a podcast, or we, you know, go home and watch a show or go to work or whatever, you don't really take time to think about how your practice went, um, reflect on what works, what didn't work. So I think even though it was a fairly brief like two or three minutes, it forced people to kind of reflect on what was actually happening. Um, what were they doing, what was their opponent doing. And I think just that in itself is helpful. Kind of like reviewing notes, right? In school or whatever, it's like, oh, you gotta take notes. Just the act of taking notes will help you remember. So, in some sense, I think it it kind of mentally challenges people to do that and be like, oh yeah. You know, the first three games we were working on an arm bar and I could never hold this person down when I was, you know, uh attacking their arm bar. So what was I doing wrong? And if they ask that question their their partner or something, they're like, oh, well, my shoulder was free all the time, so I could move my shoulder however I wanted. It's like, oh, okay, I really have I have to maintain control of the shoulder. So I think that's where it it is probably the biggest help is kind of the forced reflection on the practice.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

If that makes sense. It it does. And I have one one follow-up question, but before I do, I think there's something that's important to tackle right now because I watched just this last week, it might have even been yesterday, there there was a real kind of circulating on social media where DeAndre Corbey, Corbey I I don't forgive me, I don't remember how to pronounce his last name, but Greg Sauter's main guy, right? DeAndre. Sure. Yeah. Uh he was talking about how like I don't reflect on the mats. I don't ever take time in between rounds to like think about what I did right or wrong, because I have a set amount of time on the mats. I have to roll because I can't roll when I'm by myself. And I want to maximize that time, right? And and it was it wasn't just that conversation, it was a reaction where this guy's like walking down the street, he's like, this completely changed how I how I approach my time on the mats. And for DeAndre, for for Craig Jones, for Nikki Rodd, for somebody who is good enough that they could get a lot out of watching film, they can get a lot of reflecting by themselves after class. That is spot on. Um, I would still leave time for for those kinds of guys in my class, but I would say, hey, if you want to roll, roll. But I don't think that's good advice for white, blue, purple, brown black belts who are hobbyists, or white, blue purple belts who are professionals. Because I think that ability to reflect well is built over time. That's not natural. That's not something that anybody knows how to do on their own. And it takes a lot of time and it takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of practice actually doing that, right? And going back to the the uh film example, too, right? Uh, I think that's a really good parallel because Craig Jones said this now was like a year or two ago. He was like, Yeah, you can buy instructionals if you want to, but really, why why don't you just like watch film? Uh, you can get anything you can get out of any instructional from watching film. And for him and his crew, and for professionals, that's true. For hobbyists, that's just not. For hobbyists, they can't do it. And it's not that they're like not mentally like ready for it, it's that it's a practiced skill. And so for anybody who's thinking that of like, no, I really wish like Tim, if you're telling me that you're taking 12 minutes out of the end of class, 10 minutes out of the end of class, where you're not actually rolling, like I would rather roll because I can't roll when I'm off the mats, and that's true. But I think that the point of a well-structured class is not all rolling. The point of a well-structured class is to maximize learning and skill acquisition. And it's an easy thing to say that that primarily comes from rolling because it does, but then we have to ask ourselves, does that all come from rolling? And for a lot of people, I don't think it does. I really don't. Otherwise, what's the point of you know, answering questions about constraints? What's the point about talking about a game after the fact at all if we just learned all that we're gonna learn from that? And so I think that's a really important point to make before we go on is that yeah, if if you're listening to this and you're a professional, um I'm not gonna correct you if you're a professional, first of all. And secondly, yeah, if you were in my class, I would tell you, like, yeah, take that time to roll if if you want to. But for a huge majority of people, I think it's really important that they take that time not to reflect the way that they would after class, but to actively reflect with a partner, to talk it through, to think it through, and to actually mentally engage. Trademark, right? Or to the episode, but to mentally engage with that in a problem-solving way, because that's so much easier to do when you're sitting down across from the person that gave you that problem or that you were successful with that sweep with than after the fact. And then you can build that skill up, and then you can be able to do that off of the mat. Um, so I'll leave that there. But Adam, you also said, and I think this might be kind of related uh very early in your last response, something to the effect of those conversations helped you understand why and how, or something like that. You did you did an action, right? Or you accomplished a task, or you tried or failed. Can you dig a little bit more into that? Like, as you're talking through that, what does the why and where look like? Like, can you give me an example of something where you did something successfully or you failed? But it wasn't until you actually kind of worked through mentally or or physically with your partner like how that worked and and like what was the effect going forward of that, if you remember?

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Uh I don't know if I have a specific like instance of this.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Yeah, I was I was gonna say not to put you on the spot, but I'm putting it in the bot.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

Yeah, putting me on the spot is not generally a good idea. Um, I I don't really yeah, I can't think of a specific instance. Um I I do, I guess just in general, know that's like that's kind of how I felt because that's when I was really starting to dig into eco and learn about the CLA method um of of coaching and practice design, et cetera. So it that's when it started kind of all coming together for me in that sense of like, okay, I sometimes would go in there um and in the live role or whatever, I would just have one focus and be like, okay, whether that's uh stay on top, or whether that's keep my keep their feet off of them, or keep inside position if I'm you know doing guard retention. And I think that's probably one of maybe I'll use that as an example because I have okay guard retention. And I know there were a couple times rolling with some guys who are just like, I just like I just can't pass your guard. Like, what are you doing? And I'm like, nothing. I'm just keeping my feet like inside position, like between your knees or on your hips, and like that's all I'm doing. Um and you know, so that's where it would open up then even spaces for me to to look for sweeps, etc. Um, because you know, the top player starts to get frustrated or unable to pass the guard, uh, they start to get open up a little bit more, maybe get more aggressive, et cetera. So I I think maybe that's hopefully diving a little bit deeper, but that's kind of an example I would use because I'm pretty sure now that I think back, that that was probably one of it. It's like, well, hey, how you know how did you how did you do this? How did you stop me from passing? You know, how did you get this sweep? And I'm like, well, I really wasn't thinking about any sweep technique. I wasn't, you know, trying to go, oh, I'm I'm gonna hit this single leg X sweep or whatever. It was just keep my feet to the inside position and don't let them pass. And that was pretty much all I would do for multiple roles or games or whatever. And it worked. Yeah. So yeah. Does that does that help? I don't know. It's not super in-depth, but um, yeah, that's kind of what I remember doing.

SPEAKER_02 18:13

No, and it's good because in-depth, like when we talk through it, it doesn't have to be in-depth because sometimes the most profound breakthroughs aren't the kind of breakthroughs that we talk about, and it's like, oh my goodness, like that sounds so beautiful when you describe it. It's a really simple thing. And for me, it's exactly that same way, right? Um, I remember months and months ago, I talked about this a while back, and I don't even remember specifically when it was. I've never been a big uh triangle choke guy. Uh, my strategy from blue belt all the way through first degree black belt, and if I really want to win a round or win something, this is still what I do. Um, I'll pull guard, I'll sweep from guard, and I'll finish from top or from the back. And so I never really spent a lot of time doing submissions from guard. And so my triangle chokes were never that good. And I was fine with that because they they really didn't fit into my strategy that well. But I was at a point where I really wanted to try something new, I wanted to take a break from like the really kind of fine-tuned optimization of a strategy I largely already knew. And I also didn't want to just like deconstruct it and try to find completely new avenues. I wanted to have fun, I wanted to do a little bit of light work with something. And so I was working on my triangles and I would roll with people, you know. And and when you're working on something, even blue belts and purple belts, if I keep trying to do triangles, like they'll get out of some of them. I'm not finishing every single one. And so as I was going through that, I started to come to the realization of like, holy cow, people always used to tell me, pull down on the head to finish a triangle. And that's stupid advice, and it still is. And I I I realize I came across a little strong there. So it's not stupid advice. But what I mean to say is that pulling down on the head in a triangle is not an efficient way to finish a triangle. It does not add a lot of uh finishing power. And I don't think if there was $500 on the side of the mat, somebody would tap out just because you pulled their head down. Angling is what's required to finish and really put somebody out, uh, unless your legs are just so tight around their neck, like physiologically. I don't think pulling down the head is a good technique. But here's the thing uh I started to realize I wrote that off as a part of the process way too early because I started to come to realize holy cow, yeah, it is not a great way to finish a triangle. I don't think it adds a lot of strangling power, but this is such a critical part of the control portion, right? We we've talked in past episodes, and maybe we'll bring this back. There's basically when we talk about submissions, three parts that then can be further broken down into component parts. There's an entry, there is a control period where I have to keep somebody controlled in that submission for long enough to finish. And there's the finishing mechanics where I actually finish the submission and I do it efficiently, right? Um, but for the control period, keeping somebody's head close to my hips is a non-negotiable. Every single triangle escape from that position requires them to start to pull their head away from your hips. And if you say, well, what if they just run you over and they stack you? Yeah, still then, because they're gonna flip over if your head, if their head is glued to your hips and they try to stack you, they they can't do it. They have to pull their head away from your hips. And I started to realize that. And the point is, I wasn't doing this in a troubleshooting session sitting across from um from my my partners, right? But I was also like 16 years into my jujitsu journey as a black belt. And I don't think if I was a purple belt or a brown belt, I would have got that. But those are questions I for sure would have asked, and those are situations I for sure would have replayed after the resisted rounds with my partner. And I think even at Blue Belt, I could have had that kind of a realization. And so when we talk about it, yeah, like I'm just saying pull down in the head, and maybe it's a bad finishing mechanic, but it's a Great control mechanic. That doesn't sound that profound, and I don't think to a lot of people it is, but I do think that the process of thinking through and analyzing results off of a number of attempts is really important. And I think the earlier we start people with that, the better. I don't think we should gatekeep that past purple belt when people have quote unquote good technique to solve it with, because good technique just means that I get a result. And so I think it's so important that we open that up, we destigmatize that, and we stop saying, like, hey, white belts, like leave it to the coach, don't, don't coach each other. If it's in the middle of a game, or if you're in a more traditional classroom and a coach shows a move and a white belt, well, actually, I do it this way. Don't do that. I I'm still on board with shutting that down. But I'm talking about like after they roll and when they're going over results, stop shaming them for that and get out of their way because I think that they will expound a lot more uh upon the things that you taught them than they'd even be able to if you were the only one that taught them. So is that after 10 minutes or whatever that was a talking? Is that kind of what you were thinking, Adam, when you when you said that like that that approach, that use case for it, and ultimately like that ability to make that kind of a difference?

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Yeah, I think so. I think so. Um and I think part of it too, like you said, is is the fact that typically they're gonna have questions about an issue they were just running into. And it's easier to talk about that issue or that scenario with the person you were just in it with, right? Yeah. Uh, you know, you and I are just battling, and I'm like, man, Tim, like I don't, I I don't know, can't stop you from submitting me with an arm bar because you would do that all the time. And um you know, and it's it's much easier for you to kind of tell me, well, here's what I'm looking at, here's what I'm going for, here's why I'm going for it, than it is for me to, you know, later go ask my coach if you weren't my coach, whatever, and be like, hey, so Tim was doing this to me. Uh Tim left now, but I think this is what he was doing. How do I stop it? Because even even there, like it's it's secondhand information, it's it's maybe not even exactly correct. Um so I think you lose out on a lot of uh potential details and insight if you try to kind of solve problems that way instead of working through it right away with uh with the your actual partner, your rolling partner. So yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:39

Like even if your coach is a black belt and you were talking to a white belt before, yeah, your coach knows way more jujitsu than them. But when you say, hey, I got armbared, your coach is gonna arm bar you the way that they armbar you, or they're gonna get feedback on the way that they approach that armbar. Unless it's really big picture, not to sound like I have all the answers, but unless it's like, oh, hey, break shoulder control. You know, how are they controlling your shoulder? Oh, I don't know. Like, okay, we'll break shoulder control. Like, here's a bunch of different ways to do that. They're gonna show you, oh, here's how I break shoulder control. But then the focus is on like here are the movements that I go through. Then you're gonna try to do those exact same movements on an arm bar that may not even afford those opportunities, right? Right. Uh, because armbars have the same components, but they might work together differently, or they might execute those components differently. And so, not to not to knock anybody's coach, but they may not even be giving you feedback that applies directly to the situation that you were in. And I think that's important. And so again, I'm not talking about when you're drilling and a white belt saying, oh, drill this way. I'm not talking about when a coach showed something and a white belt's correcting the coach. That's still weird. Don't don't allow that. That's weird. But I'm talking about after they went through a live situation and they ran into whatever situations they ran into live and they're trying to coach one another and like, oh, here's what I did, here's what I ran into, here's how overcame that, etc. Let them do that because they were the ones that did that. And even if they're giving just terrible technical advice, they're organizing their thoughts. And that is a lifelong skill in jujitsu that needs to be built through repetition. So uh Adam, what what were you gonna ask there?

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Yeah, so I I have uh I yeah, so I'll ask because then I had I had one other comment, but I think I'll remember it until after this. So um I was gonna ask, since you just touched on it again, too, you know, how would you handle um if if people are starting to say, oh, here, do this, put your hand here, do this and that, like during the middle of a game. Right? Because I I think that's one of the challenges as an eco coach or something, when you do have some newer people, um they understandably they're like, I don't know what I'm doing. Like, what should I how do how do I do this? How did how did you just submit me? And if they don't know that there's gonna be time for questions or they don't know they can ask questions later or whatever, they might ask somebody during the middle of a of a round and be like, hey, can you show me this? And then that that ends up being three minutes of the six minute round. Um so so what's your take as I guess from a coach's perspective, or or even if somebody, if you were rolling with a newer belt and during the middle of a round, somebody's like, Well, hey, how did you do this? Regardless of whether it's related to kind of the game or not, um, how would you handle that? And I yeah, I guess I should preface sometimes if there's questions about like the constraints or the or the goals or whatever, that's fine. Like that's not what this is about. This is like, hey, if somebody specifically asked you, Tim, how did you do that armbar and there's still three and a half minutes left in the game, are you gonna sit there and tell me about it?

SPEAKER_02 27:49

Yeah. Uh it's a great question because it happens all the time. And so I want to repeat what I said earlier with a different emphasis. I don't think that just rolling every second of every class is the best approach just because it is for everyone, right? Um, but that doesn't mean that I don't think that should be the majority of the class. Uh, as we've repeatedly said, and as I continue to hold my opinion, it has not changed. Resisted training is the best way to learn new skills, okay? Bar none including what we've talked about. But what I think is that we should allow some time in class for those conversations. And I'm not dodging around your question, I just want to make that point clear. So, in terms of the question that you're asking, if it's not during like that six minutes that I've set aside for people to talk, if it's like in the middle of something, I'll watch. And if this is just gonna be like a 20-second, 30-second, like, oh, how do I start? If it's a how do I start, there's a 50-50, maybe a 40-60 chance in favor of it being not this, right? But it could be them speaking from understanding, like, oh, here's what I'm doing, like, here's here's the starting position, here's why. If they don't know, just jump in and correct it. But if they do know and they're walking through that, again, that's them organizing their thoughts, which is a skill just like every other thing that we learn in jujitsu, that they need to master at some point. And so that organization of thoughts, and more importantly, if they're stopping like after somebody wins the game and they're like, oh, whoa, man, like how did you pass me? How did you armbar me? Once again, if they're gonna go through that for 20 seconds, 30 seconds, maybe even 45 seconds, as long as it's the only instance of that happening in the game, I'm still going to let them. If it's what you're describing, though, and it's like this whole dialogue, it's this whole like two-minute conversation, I'm gonna jump in before then because that's not the best use of that part of class. That part of class is about resisted training. And I do think that feedback from one student to another can be really useful during that resisted training, as long as it's quick, like, oh yeah, here's how I did super quick. And then they can they can use that as feedback that they can then apply and they can actually apply it in what they're doing. But it shouldn't become like a three-minute instructional where it's like, oh yeah, here's like what I do, and like the theory, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? It needs to be quickly back into the loop of that game. Does that make sense or do I need to clarify that a little bit more?

SPEAKER_01 30:13

No, I think so. I mean, it's not it's not a completely black and white answer, and I understand that. So using using the judgment you're as a coach is uh understandable, right? Kind of how long is the conversation going on? Is it the you know, fourth or fifth time it's happened during the class so far, or is it the first time?

SPEAKER_02 30:33

So it's like it's like a recipe, right? Kind of cooking. There's you know, if if I'm baking a cake, this is actually a terrible rabbit hole. I don't I don't know anything about baking. So if you're a baker, forgive me, right? But try to capture the spirit of what I'm doing, right? If we're baking a cake, we need flour and we need sugar, right? And those are really the most important things because it's not going to be a cake without those things, right? But then we can still adjust within that broader recipe, like the balance of different other smaller ingredients, and that can have a value. And in fact, that can have a really big value to the flavor of the cake. But what I can never do is say, oh wow, I like this balance of like sugar to egg to vanilla extract so much. I'm gonna like take a quarter of the flour out of the cake now. Not cool. That's not that's oh my goodness. Now you're eating like vegan food or something. It's not gonna be yeah, it's it's not gonna be a cake like you want. So you have to keep the main thing the main thing, uh, the flour and the sugar and whatever else is the main thing in a cake. Like you can't take that away. Sure. But when you start to really get comfortable with that, or maybe even not, if you start to adjust some of the other ingredients to taste, that can be a good thing. In the same way, the unresisted or sorry, the resisted training, the games have to be the main focus. That has to be the overwhelming majority, and most of the time, that's got to be the only thing that you're doing. But that doesn't mean that when we start to add a couple other things in here or there, as long as it's well controlled and it's not taking away from the main thing, sometimes that can even have a better effect. And so I'm not I'm not shy about that. I just want to make sure that's not taking up like half of a given game. Is that does that make sense, hopefully, that analogy?

SPEAKER_01 32:17

That that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

That's good. So gotcha. I cut into something you were gonna say. What were you gonna say?

SPEAKER_01 32:23

Oh, I was it's it's old news now. It was a comment I was gonna make uh when we were talking about some of the questions, um, and you know, going to ask a coach about, you know, Tim, how do you do your armbar versus you know my opponent and sort of how the information is different? Because you're gonna show me how you do an arm bar, not exactly the arm bar I was I was running into. And it made me think I've I've had a couple questions kind of along that same line sometimes, and it's like, hey, what is the best way to get out of X position, right? Or this position. And it's it's like, well, that is a good question. I I kind of understand where you're coming from if you're stuck there, but the way it's phrased is is not ideal because there's many different ways to get out, and it's usually so variable that there isn't a single best way. So I was like, well, you know, my personal favorite way is to do this. There are other ways, and sometimes this doesn't even work because my opponent knows I'm trying to do it do it. So um so that's that's I think going back earlier in our conversation. Um, but some of just the challenges maybe that you know, waiting to ask a coach or ask somebody else, regardless uh other than your partner right after uh training, uh might be challenging.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

So no, I I agree with you. Uh and I want to take not necessarily a pivot, but a pivot in perspective here as we start to wind down because I think this is really important. We've talked a lot about how there is a role for this in class. I've talked a lot about, and you've talked a lot about too, that I don't think that coaches should stigmatize this in the same way that I feel like a lot of coaches have. But now we've talked about like what the coaches should and shouldn't necessarily do. What if, what if a white belt's listening at them and they're like, cool, okay. Um, I'm not gonna be disrespectful to my coach, I'm not gonna like correct their technique to another white belt. But if you're saying that this is so useful and if you're saying that this is gonna help us so much, like what do I do? Do I just like ask my buddy like after class, like, hey, show me something? You know, sometimes I get caught in an armbar and I know what I want to figure out, but how how should a white belt or a brand new blue belt or somebody who's new start to ask these questions if it's not set aside and it's explicitly like, okay, take six minutes to troubleshoot with your partner? I have a couple of thoughts on my own, Adam, but if a white belt asked you that and said, Hey, I don't know what to talk about with my partner after that, like what would you tell them? What kinds of questions should you ask, or like how do you approach those kinds of conversations, white belt to white belt, young bluebelt to young blue belt, so that they can actually get something out of it?

SPEAKER_01 35:07

Sure. I mean, I guess just don't sit there in silence. Uh right. We've already talked early on, we talked about like uh reflecting, right? It forces people to reflect on on the games. So whether that's, you know, hey, put me back in this position you had me in in game three. I want to try to work out of it. Well, that could be one thing, or if you were something you were struggling with, or you're having a lot of success, and it was because you uh, you know, were like, oh, I have to make connection to the shoulder. You know, you had a light bulb moment. Like, share the light bulb moment with your training partner. Because regardless of whether or not they know it, it's going to uh kind of confirm that idea in your mind more and you'll be able to remember it easier. And they might, if they do know it, and maybe they forgot, they're like, oh yeah, that's a really good idea, or like, oh yeah, I noticed you were doing that. That's great. If they don't know it, well then now you're helping them, right? Yeah. So all of it is is this process of reflection, reflection. I think the biggest thing though would just be just don't sit there and be quiet for you know five minutes and not say anything. So use that time. Different personalities are going to get things out of it in different ways, right? So some people might want to talk the more theory of it. Some people might just be like, hey, let's roll for the next three minutes or whatever. Like, let's just go back to this game and you know, in this position, because I want to find the best way for me to get out of this position. So try to hold me down, whatever. Yeah. Um so I I think it it comes down a lot to different personalities too. Um so yeah, that's that's kind of my answer. It it depends. It does, and I just do something with the time.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Yeah, in and I'll add on to that a little bit. Do something that you feel in your heart of hearts will give you value. And here's what I mean. If you're a professional, just roll because I think you get a lot of information from rolling that you know what to do with. If you're not a professional and you couldn't sit down and watch, you know, ADCC and like learn directly from what people are doing and apply that. I don't know that that's you. And maybe you do say if you're in a CLA class, like, hey, we have a little bit of time. I want to replay this game we played earlier because I feel like I was trying to figure something out. And I want to test that. I want to take that and try to learn from that a little bit more. And you could replay a game. Um, if you kept getting caught in armbars, you kept getting caught in leg locks, like talk through that. You don't have to roll uh with any resistance at all, or most of the time. You can say, put me in that position. I want to kind of feel again how I'm being controlled. I want to feel what you're doing and see what you're doing and play around a little bit with grips and play around a little bit with clearing, you know, my shoulder or my hips or whatever it is. Uh, try to figure that out and then say, oh, okay, now that your feet are off my hips, if I'm getting leg locked, now try to get them back on. And and then you can try to move around, right? Um, I'm not saying you have to do this, but if you had a question in terms of like, why do I just feel like it's over when they get into Ashigarami, that'll help you, right? That'll help you to say, here's something I can do. And if they start resisting me, I feel like I can keep these feet off my hips. And then if they try to finish, I feel like I have a little bit more time. And then next time you're going into that, you can directly use those insights of like, oh, I remember when I was troubleshooting a little bit, if I got their feet off my hips, I felt a little bit safer. And then you you can't get their feet off your hips. And so then you say, okay, well, let me try to strip your feet off my hips and like see how I get them off in the first place. And sometimes it is just a question, like, hey, what are you doing? How are you doing this? And they tell you, and then you can figure out, okay, well, put me back in that position. I want to see if I can feel like I can free my shoulder, right? So, you know, I'll say intentionality and I'll say mental engagement. And I think that for people who are just starting to go down this journey, those are still kind of like cool. I I don't know what you want me to do with that kind of words. And so think of it in these terms like if you have a problem that you keep running into, or you have a question that you keep needing answered, I'm not talking about you rolled with a purple belt and everything you tried to do failed. There's a whole lot of questions there. I don't think you solve that at once. But if you keep getting armbared or you keep getting swept or you keep failing a sweep, use that time to try to figure out why. And I don't mean the move. I don't mean drill the simple sweep or the scissor sweep or butterfly sweep or whatever it is. I mean try to figure out as you're going through these movements, where are you getting stopped? Are they moving a specific kind of way? And if they are, why does that even stop you? Like what's going on? Uh, and it might take a couple times, but I think that gives you really valuable information. And uh, if you're on the reverse side of that, if you keep being able to armbar this guy or you keep being able to armbar everybody, and it's just your good submission, you don't know what you're doing. If they have a question about that, try to break that down for them and for you. Don't just say, Oh yeah, this is my armbar. Here's how I do it. Why does it work? Like, what things are you doing when you do it? How are you controlling them? How can you keep them down? And I don't mean like what you feel like you're doing. I mean like what are you doing to their body physically that prevents it from getting up? Because they're trying arm bars too, and they can't control like you. Try to break it down like that, you know? And I am I'm going deeper and deeper into the weeds here, but just try to find out beyond just a move that works for you and it just seems to keep working. Why is that? Are you controlling their posture? Are you pulling them really hard? Are you hitting them really hard? Can you get them to move a specific way and then that's why you're successful? Those are the kinds of things that we can use that time, whether it's during class or after class, those are the kinds of things that we can gain from asking and answering questions that will really help to set us up in the long term, both as we learn from other students and as we organize our own thoughts at what we're good at. And so to put a bow on that and to kind of take that all back into a simple and easy way to process that. I think that at every level, especially the junior belts, it's really important to have those conversations to get past moves, to get past these big groups of things and say, uh, you know, I know the scissor sweep works, but I can stop it a lot of times. Why can't I stop yours? Figure out specifically why they can't. Like what part of that is working so well for them, not others. Or I armbar everybody, and somebody wants to know, why do you keep armbaring me? It's not the armbar, you're doing something, and try to figure out what that something is so that you can build on that and you can understand that more. I think that's what that does. And that's not something that an instructor can easily do for you, however good they are and however much they try. Uh, I think that's something ultimately that you have to do yourself. And I think that being willing to take that time to talk to a partner, still ask your coach all the questions in the world. I'm not saying that they can't help you, and I'm not saying that they're not going to be the primary driver of that growth as long as you're coming consistently. But I think that adding in some of your own self-guided learning without asking your coach every single question you have and trying to figure out some of it on your own, that by itself is a really powerful thing, both for skill development and for learning how to think about jujitsu and learn jujitsu on your own and reflect on jujitsu on your own. So that's that's my two cents on that, Adam. It was that clear questions, additions.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

No, I think that's good.

SPEAKER_02 42:32

Perfect. Hopefully, hopefully it is. Um, well, thank you all once again for joining us. Um, don't forget if you have questions, if you need help with anything. Well, I shouldn't say if you need help with anything, but if you have questions, if you have anything that you want to talk to us about, if you maybe even have anything you would want us to address on the podcast, don't forget we have an Instagram at open.mat podcast. Feel free to message us, comment on our posts, whatever. And at least on Spotify, you can also comment directly on the episodes. And with that said, Adam, great to talk to you.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

Great to talk to you.