Raise and Exit 33: Alex Marr & Alan Giles. How are startups scaling in the AI era?

 In this episode of Raise & Exit, Alan Giles and Alex Ma from Fractional Execs break down how founders can scale companies smarter using fractional leadership, better sales strategy, and clearer positioning. Building a startup today isn’t just about hiring bigger teams or raising more venture capital. The most effective founders are focusing on expertise, impact-driven sales, and strategic execution to grow faster while keeping burn rates under control. If you're a startup founder, investor, or operator, this conversation will challenge the traditional way companies think about scaling. 

💡 In this episode we cover:

Why founders should stop focusing on just one metric like revenue 

👥 The rise of fractional executives and why startups are using them more 

🎯 Why sales is no longer a numbers game — it's an impact game 

🧠 How understanding your ICP and buyer personas drives growth

 🤖 The real role of AI in scaling startups

⚡ How founders can access C-level expertise without full-time hires

 🔎 Why differentiation matters more than claiming your startup is “unique” 

🎧 About Raise & Exit Raise & Exit is a podcast where founders, investors, and operators share insights about building, scaling, fundraising, and exiting companies in today’s startup ecosystem. If you're building a startup or investing in the next generation of companies, this podcast is for you. 

🔔 Subscribe for more conversations with founders, investors, and startup leaders. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

AI can help in a multitude of ways, but one of the key areas for me is ditching the old model of go-to-market. There's a very traditional way of, okay, I'm going to go out there, I'm going to create a product, I'm going to do my product market fit, and I'm going to sell stuff. And once I've proved that I can sell stuff, then it's just a numbers game. It's not quite true. It might have been true in the past, but more and more people get to their first, let's say even seven figures, through network effective selling. Founders don't readily accept that or understand that. When we unpick that with them and unpick their desire to scale just physical resources, we go through a period of understanding their process because everybody's process is different.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Welcome to the latest episode of Raise and Exit. And this is another one of the special ones when we have more than one guest, and for a good reason. And today with us, we have Alan and Alex from Fractional Execs. I'm gonna go and let them introduce themselves. But one of the reasons why I'm excited to go and have both of them here is both of them are focused around what it takes to go and scale companies to achieve their growth ambitions and do it in a way that facilitates valuation premiums, exit premiums, whatever may be there that's the case. And they bring a very different approach to this. And this is not Alan's or Alex's first time around the rodeo. So I thought it might be wise to get somebody with some good experience. And why don't we go with two birds at the same time? So on that note, Alan and Alex, Age Before Beauty, whatever you introduce yourselves, and we'll figure out which wins.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

I'll go first, but I don't know what bird I'm going to be described as. So I'll uh I'll let you guys work that one out. Hi, it's great to be with you, Edgar. Um I'm Alan Giles, I'm from Fractional Exec. Uh set up the company about just yeah, about four years ago. We're now in four different countries. We're in the UK, UAE, uh, South Africa, and of course Canada. We provide seasoned C-level executives to help companies of all sizes, but mainly those that are that are pre-funding. Uh, we help them scale and grow. So that that's what we do. And I'll uh I'll hand over to I'll hand over to Alex and let him introduce his particular breed of bird.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Yeah, not quite sure. Maybe um maybe I'll go with the peacock. Um actually I should I should I I I should go with the live a bird being bit being a big Liverpool fan. So I'm Alex Ma and I'm the co-founder of Fractional Execs Canada, uh, one of the uh one of the four companies that Alan mentioned. And um yeah, we incorporated here in Canada, I think around about August of last year, and we've seen some um some fantastic traction and growth over this past six months.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Fantastic. Well, gentlemen, it's a pleasure to go and have you here, and I'm gonna dive right into uh the theme of our broadcast series, which is around providing that wisdom and experience and consideration that others uh have gone through, right? So uh in a way that they can go and leverage for themselves, whether they're trying to raise capital, whether they're trying to go and sell their business, etc. The first place that I want to start with both of you is around the notion of how scaling has fundamentally changed in the AI era. Something that I think a lot of people are struggling with. We just went and uh heard um uh the latest latest news from Block. They've caught 40% of their workforce while they're going and having record profitability. And I really wonder out loud, do companies need to re-evaluate what scaling looks like in 2026 onward in the era age of AI?

SPEAKER_02 3:33

In this in this AI-driven age, uh there's there's a bit of a rush for people to think there's a formulaic way to raise money. And you know, you can you can quite readily type into any search bar and what do I need to do? I want to go through funding. And you'll get you you will get a you know, you'll find a raft of people that give you the step-by-step process. Everything from you know getting your presentation right, of which there are a multitude of different templates for you to go and work with. And then, you know, the documentation you might need to put in your data room, if you've got a data room, which data room to provide to to use, what kind of presentation style you might want, what are the and and there's all this different kind of uh information and advice on how you should present yourself. One thing that I don't see, and you would think there'll be more information about it, is what kind of investor do you want to attract? There's a lot of effort going into people putting on the brand new frock and their lipstick before they go onto the dance floor, but there's not a lot of attention put onto who they want to dance with. And and I think there's there's so much information out there in this, as you say, this AI-driven age, that if you think about the kind of fit you want as an investor to be, then you can actually whittle down and really almost treat it like a bit of account-based marketing for funding and get yourself out there and get yourself talking to people that you know that you're a good fit for. You know, make sure the culture's right, make sure that their investment thesis fits what you what you are, but what you want to be. And I think there's a bit of a gap there. Uh, a lot of companies spend so much time and take advice from all all and sundry about what it takes to look right, but I I don't think there's enough attention put on who they're trying to look right for.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Yeah, no, I uh I'd agree with with everything there that Alan has said, but um I think also AI is is is speeding up a lot of um processes and access to information and and and that's great, but it's also providing I think potentially uh people with uh incorrect perceptions. Uh a lot of people, you know, I just have to open my email or my LinkedIn and I'll find another way to get rich quick with AI and suddenly find another thousand hot leads that can fall into my um my inbox. And I think there is this thought process maybe that AI is gonna help everyone raise cash quickly, AI's gonna help um everyone grow their business rapidly, and I think that it may be on the surface is just an the the new shiny thing that everyone wants to hang their hat on. Now, there are some real benefits from AI, and there's some real benefits from using AI to solve real world problems, but which are led by humans. I think whether it's private equity, whether it's VC, whether it's family office, I still believe that there are fundamentals that they are looking for when they're going to make an investment, and AI at this moment in time in 2026, I don't believe has changed those fundamentals.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

That's very, very helpful in terms of context because I think that actually goes into the thesis of your business that you're going and building out as well, and scaling in some respects with the support of AI with some of the companies that you go and have, and that is the role of kind of call it the senior expert by function or geography within a company. And if we go and take a look at how companies used to scale up, go and raise capital or you know, put a large uh lump sum investment to begin with, go and hire the team, scale the team, build the product, whatever the heck it may be. But today that's not necessarily the same case. You still need the expertise, but maybe you don't need it full time. So can you just unpack why you're seeing the thesis of a fractional multifunctional team collaborating with a founder to be able to scale a business? What's that advantage around speed? What's that around advantage around capability? And why is that something that companies may want to consider now that would have failed, say 10 to 15 years ago, but is now actually a competitive advantage?

SPEAKER_02 8:06

The the sense of ownership of uh executive resources is is lessening. Uh the the need for ownership, the need to have them as part of the the actual fabric and structure of the company, of the organization, that's lessening somewhat. And I think that's lessening in all parts of the market. But when you when you're looking to scale your business, it's always been true that the areas that you need to scale in are where the work gets done, not where the work is strategized about and the plans are put in place. And and at that level, that's that's pretty expensive. And for a small company that's taking a decision to scale, and maybe they're founder-led, maybe that maybe there's a couple of co-founders, that's a big decision to take. Okay, we're we're gonna and and often, depending how they're funded, but if let's imagine that they're um they're bootstrapped, they're reasonably successful, they've got themselves to a position. Actually, the fiscal outlay of going and getting a senior executive and bringing them in or two to help them scale for on a full-time basis can be punitive. Uh, and actually you can that can not only can it restrict the ability to scale and grow, it can stop it dead in its tracks because you get the people in, they're on a full-time salary, you've got all the fringe that goes along with it. And then you hope you've got the right person and that there's not an over-about elaborative way of navel gazing going on before you actually see the results.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

I really want to jump into that, Alan, because I think that's one of the big things that's going on right now, right? Like we look at the speed and nimbleness at which things uh it takes to go and get going. Um I have a former client of mine who went and became, got recruited in to be the CEO of another firm by private equity. And one of the things that they went through was going and doing a lot of like restructuring of the leadership team. You know, the advantage is you have a multi-decade company, they have a certain, in their case, not the greatest momentum, but they had momentum of revenue stability, a customer retention stability that was there. But I think probably spent a year just trying to go and figure out what the leadership team was going to go and look like going forward. Now, we're talking at a different scale here, right? We're talking about companies in the single-digit to double-digit revenues that you're typically working with. You don't have that time and patience the way you might have had 10 to 15 years ago. So, what what is the risk that people have in terms of the mental model? And maybe Alex, you can start addressing this. What's the mental model risk that people have of saying, well, this used to work 10 to 15 years ago, but maybe I shouldn't reflect that today?

SPEAKER_01 10:32

No, uh absolutely, and I and I think that was one of the points that I was going to come on to. You know, Alan mentioned the the financial impacts, you know, potentially could be punitive. Alongside that financial impact is the time, the time it takes for you to bring on that level of expertise into the business, onboard them or find them in the first place, then onboard them. Um, and then for them to spend six to nine months getting their feet under the table, assessing what needs to happen, who needs to stay, who needs to go, that effort and expense can can basically halt the growth of that business. Because that's the traditional approach, that's what we're all used to. That that's that's what we were kind of taught. Um but the reason why, from a founder-led perspective, there is the advantage, but equally from the investor's side, that the advantage is you're bringing on a seasoned professional, you're not having to spend that time recruiting, and these people will execute within the first 90 days, you know, and they're executing without um increasing the burn rate of a of a full-time hire that would do, and and they're obviously increasing your run weight. So they're executing, they're coming in, they perform the tasks that are required when they're required, in the amount of effort that's required, and the the ability when you then have that on a fractional basis is you can dial up and dial down the expertise level for the different parts of the business you require when you require them.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

Oh man, I love I love where you're kind of taking this. Uh, let me just add something to that, Al um, Alex. Um you know, we we've had a multi-decade approach of a valuation metric being used of revenue per headcount. We gotta be very careful with that. Like one of the things that we're going and doing in the background and reveal right here is going and taking a look at valuation lift per dollar spent per hour. And it sounds more complicated, but it is a much more accurate predictor of are we actually spending money in a way that is providing a net benefit to the valuation of the business? Because that's fundamentally what you're looking for. You're valuable the more valuable your company is, the more likely it is going to survive. And maybe that is a good seed to pass things back to you, Alan.

SPEAKER_02 12:56

Yeah, I just wanted to elaborate on one thing that Alex said there. There's an often missed softer benefit of using one of these fractional executives that are there in a fairly transient role, um, but they execute very quickly. And that is if we think about the the type of company that we're we're talking about here in the main, the founder-led businesses, they they get the soft benefit of executive mentorship as well. Because these people have been around the block. They've they've not only uh stood there and talked the talk, but they they they've walked the walk as well. And and a lot of them they carry the scars of battle into their next engagement. And that's really valuable because you don't often know you're getting that uh until they arrive. And then they go, oh, by the way, yeah, I saw I saw this somewhere else. And and even if they don't know the right answer, they're so well networked that they they think nothing of reaching out to somebody else and bringing in that that mentorship or that knowledge to supplement what they're already getting, right? When you open your eyes to uh and your mind to this way of working or this way of engagement, actually things happen much, much quicker than people think. Uh at Fractional Execs in the UK, we grew a company from inception in nine months, or from from ground from ground up, using uh the majority of the board were fractional execs, a CFO, CRO, and CMO. And in nine months we grew everything brand, sales, um, campaigning, channel, and delivered their first customer, which was Google. I stood back from it at the end of it, having told somebody we could do this in 12 months. And when we had done it in nine, I stood back and looked at the results and thought this thing really works, right? I I knew it, I knew, I knew it would, but to the scale that it worked, uh, and to they had to stand back and then actually help them get with the full-time incumbents of the roles that we were fulfilling. It was very satisfying to see that that happening.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

I I love what you're saying, Alan, because there's a lot of different literature that's been written about this, or you know, multi-time founders or recognized names have gone and talked, right? Zero to one, cold start problem, all these different things. But I think what what's frequently there is those are the mental models. But what you're actually going and pointing to is that there is the executional model that needs to be considered, and both cold start and zero to one, those are both written in pre-AI era. And I think that's something that is kind of going through. So maybe you can tell me a little bit more of how earlier stage companies that are looking to raise or may even want to go and create a product that they can immediately sell because it's a win-win for everybody. What are some things that you feel even versus five years ago, business founders and business owners should retire as a concept for how to scale a business? Not because they aren't valid, they were valid. What would you recommend that they retire as a mental model for building or scaling a business?

SPEAKER_02 15:43

Yeah, so I think I think I think when you're scaling uh uh one of those types of businesses now, AI can help in a multitude of ways. But one of the key areas for me is ditching the old model of go to market. You know, there's a very traditional way of, okay, I'm gonna go out there, I'm gonna I'm gonna create a product, I'm gonna do my product market fit, and I'm gonna sell some. And once I've proved that I can sell some, then it's just a numbers game. It's not quite true. It might have been true in the past, uh, but more and more people uh get to their first, let's say even seven figures, through network effective selling. Founders don't readily accept that or understand that. So when we when we unpick that with them and unpick their desire to scale just physical resources, uh, we go through a pro we go through a period of understanding their process because everybody's process is different. The process for a successful sale of a product is different company to company. But to understand what good looks like, you have to understand how you failed to sell. What what what happened in those those sales processes that didn't work and didn't result you in you selling the best goddamn budget in the world. And if you can understand that, then you're well on the way to unlocking the benefits of uh AI or other technology solutions are available uh to enable you to process map your process, uh your whole sales process end to end, get conformity within it, get consistency, and then apply tech. And there's an area within sales and marketing that is often talked about and and it becomes it's often talked about with a lot of angst as well. And it's that handover of what does a lead look like from marketing into sales? That can become in companies large and small, but it's more prevalent in that small and medium-sized company where they're just trying to do things quickly is the quality of that lead. So you end up, and and the reason this becomes a problem is the interconnect between marketing and sales and the expense of having a fully staffed sales team. If you've got a fully fully staffed, less than optimized set of sales resources, you are burning cash. And the quickest way to scale your company and and derive more revenue and increase your uh your profitability is to ensure that your salespeople, the most expensive resource you will ever hire, are are closing more opportunities than not. And the and if you can get if you can nail that and get that right, then all the things that happen before it, they they become the piece that you need to tweak and manage and and just provide them with opportunity, not leads. And and we've been at we've been actively doing that and and coaching founders in that process. So and that's where I think AI for this size of company, there's lots you can do with analytics and the latest releases from Anthropic and Claude. They're amazing, by the way. But I think they really truly are enterprise type products. Where we're really interested in playing and helping people is how do we almost democratize the tech into the part of the market that really is the growth engine of everybody's economy? It's that small and medium business. So if we if we can actually help them accelerate, our overall economy accelerates. And the big guys will always be the big guys. But we want we want to give more of those mid-cap companies the opportunity to go and dine at the top table. That's around scaling not only your efforts but your numbers in a sustainable way. So we do a lot of unpicking what's gone on and then layering it back on and then adding the tech to make it efficient and consistent. And that that whole area of that you you mentioned, Alex, that you know, you you get emails every day, me too. You know, everybody can sell me, you know, 20 billion, 15,000 times the leads that I'm getting today for a dollar, you know, because they're using because they're using AI. Amazing, well done, chaps. Um, but what they're not doing is that there's no quality assurance there. We've used tools to actually make sure it doesn't matter where that data comes from or how much of it. We take that burden away from the companies and allow them to just have opportunities, uh and that that helps them scale um without worrying about all that front-end piece, which I've done it a few times, I'm sure you chaps have as well. Building go-to-market engines from scratch, it's not easy. The amount of churn that you get in just the people churn in in the first year, 18 months, it's hard work. Uh a constant churn of people until you end up with the right team. Now, most of what they do is fairly easy to replicate if you if you get the process right, and that's where AI I think has a massive part to play in that size of company to make them attractive for funding.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

That's really, really helpful. Al Alex, can you add to to this the other half of my question, which is what are what are the mental model traps that people can get into? Valid five years ago, maybe even four years ago, but really like seriously give consideration to retiring today.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

I think Alan alluded to one of them. So the old adage that sales is a numbers game. We've we've we've been brought up, I was brought up on sales is a numbers game. The more people you go and see, the more emails that you send, the more proposals that you send, the better probability you're gonna have of closing and and and etc etc. And whilst there is an element of truth to that, in today's age, with the tools that we have, uh the the the paradigm has shift from sales is no longer a numbers game, sales is an impact game.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

Unpack that a bit more, Alex, because I think this is like a really key part, right? Like like businesses today don't have the same continuity of like especially like mid size or larger companies, do not have the same continuity of people being in the same role in the same buying team, etc. Right? And and I think what you just said there's so critical it's the impact. You need to go and have an impact with a product or service that you're selling that it survives the buying. Team to the next generation, and ideally, even the generation after that. Like, so back to you, Alex, on that point, because I think it's crucial here to how to look at this.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

And so that is the critical paradigm shift. So, so everything now that you do should be impactful. Every conversation, every message, every marketing outreach, every phone call, every touch point now should be impactful, otherwise, it's meaningless. Why is this the case? Well, firstly, the new generation that are coming through in business. Now I get confused. Is that the Gen Z? Is that the Gen I I'm not sure which one it is, but whichever one it is that's coming through, their attention spans, as we know, are getting shorter and shorter and shorter. So therefore, the message that they receive has to be impactful in the most immediate and quickest time, and therefore, what that means is as a business, we have to have done our research much much better than we used to do to make sure that we're actually sending out impactful messages to the right person that's going to receive that message, therefore, it's going to resonate with them. So all of that wrapped up kind of means you've really got to know your ICP.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

So I want let me unpack that part. Something we are seeing in a lot of the companies we're working with is this obsession of I need to get into the C-suite or the SVP or the business unit head, etc. But is that still happening in how mid-sized and larger organizations are buying?

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Yes, it is still important to ensure that we are again, let's take it right the way back. Some things don't change, and one of the things that doesn't change is as a selling organization, as an organization that either has a product, service, whatever it might be that I'm looking to sell as a small and medium enterprise, the one fundamental thing that doesn't change is that we have to know very early on what the decision-making process is within that organization. If we don't know what the decision-making process is within the organization, then coming back to being impactful, our messages are not going to be impactful. Because we might be sending the wrong message to the wrong person within that who actually isn't part of the decision-making process. So some fundamental things don't change. We need to know what that decision-making process is. But what does change then is understanding very clearly what's important, what that IC, what our ICP is, and then making sure that the impact of our approach, message, um, everything that goes along with it is targeted specifically to resonate with those, with the audience.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

I would go one step further than that. I think if you're going to be really impactful, and this is a big change, uh I think, there's more and more attention going on to the individual, the persona that you're actually lucky enough to get in front of within your ICP. I ICP is crucial for and a lot of companies don't understand who they are when they start their marketing uh activities. But if you can nail that early, and and there's lots that goes into making sure that you understand it, if you can go a step further and actually understand the persona that you want to be in front of, who's the perfect person for you to talk to that has the problem that you can solve? Because that's what we're all trying to do. We're trying to solve people's problems. That's the magic of selling. How do you how do you actually prove to somebody that what you've got solves the problem that they have? And to understand the problem they have, you really need to understand the person and why it's a problem for them. So I would go a little further. Those companies that are doing very well right now is those that understand the people, the actual persona that they want to get in front of. It's becoming ever more competitive to get to the right person. When you get there, you don't want you don't want to waste your shot. You need to understand them before you get to see them and make sure you do your homework. The days of blindly rocking up to meetings and having an opportunity, oh, I'm gonna drive a relationship and I'm gonna find out and ask questions to find out about them. You don't get that long anymore. Um, people are time poor, and uh you know, if you get half an hour somebody, you used to get an hour. So you you need to shortcut them, you need to shortcut and get to the meat of why you're there. People don't want to waste time getting to know you anymore. That's those days are gone.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

And I think it goes back to what uh I think we were just kind of addressing a little while ago, which is around the fact that things are oddly enough more transactional and more human at the same time, right? It's like you gotta go and get to that human connection much faster, right? And I and I and I think this is a paradox of what's going on because we see a lot of sales process governance and management. And if you really go and strip it down to its bones, what it actually is am I making or enhancing a human connection? Yes. How many enhancements or connections do I need to make for this company to go and buy? Like, and we're you know, we're here talking about from a business-to-business point of view, and I think that's the portion that's being missed so much there, right? Alan, you alluded to the fact that we go and have AI as something that's gonna accelerate certain aspects of your process, but it's never to go and replace, and ultimately you gotta go and figure out is the humans have to take care of the humans, and the automation and the AI needs to go and take care of the stuff that the humans were going like, oh god, why are we going through this product part of the process again? Like, just give me the give me the answer, right? It's an interactivity. So I I love where this kind of conversation has gone and evolved to. If we kind of go to summarize the theme of the podcast, um, if you had to kind of go and say something to stop doing and something to start doing for both of you, if you are a founder looking to raise your exit in 2026, what would that be?

SPEAKER_01 28:09

I would stop obsessing over one KPI or one number. Um I think that we need you that there needs to be a making sure that we are looking at not just revenue. There is a lot more interest now in pipeline, process, profit, and not just the old adage of you know, if we if we increase our revenues and our revenues are X, then we're gonna get a multiple of Y, and therefore I want to go out and I just want to be focusing on that. So and and if I can just add one more before uh obviously Alan jumps in. Uh, the second thing is stop the obsession as well of thinking the the solution is to hire full-time executives to help a founder drive that business forward. You know, at the end of the day, fractionals help to reduce the execution risk without increasing the burn permanently, they help with things like uh rapid uh eBit DAR uplift, um flexibility, lowering fixed costs, um uh you know, effectively they're variable cost operating leverage, and they can really help you when it comes to scale and the valuation of the business. So that's probably how I would uh frame it, and uh I'll hand over to Alan.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

Around things that you can stop doing, I think stop striving for perfection, stop obsessing over it, it's never going to be perfect. Um it it's it's an unrealistic ambition, you know. So very good, excellent, but is good enough, right? So it doesn't have to be perfect. The other thing is I I would I would encourage founders and leaders of businesses um to concentrate on themselves whilst also understanding what the competition looks like. We see a lot of people that ignore the competition because they're unique. I I really don't like the word unique in business. Uh I I don't think I don't think there are many businesses out there that are truly unique. And if they are, I wonder whether they are investable. Okay. So um, how do you win if you're in a pool of one? So so I would say drop the word unique, be differentiated. That that would be my guide. And the thing to do more of if you're in that position, you're leading a company, you're a founder, you're an executive, uh, trade on authenticity because there's no doubt in my mind that the market has matured in its understanding of what authentic looks like. There's the the the room for you know gimmicks and tricks and games, and I won't say the word because you know who knows what the audience is. Um they've gone, you know, that that flashy way of presenting what you do and hoping people don't see underneath the kimono. Just be authentic, you know, and and people people see that for what it is, and then you build trust very quickly, and that's how you get deeper relationships, which is what you need to win in the current market that we've got.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Gentlemen, this has been really, really valuable. I love how you've kind of weaved in into a very compressed time frame, uh, both your professional experience and my pointy questioning. Thank you, Alan and Alex, for joining. Uh, it has been a real pleasure to have you on the Raisin Exit Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 31:43

Thank you, Edgar. It's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

One of my hardest things in hosting this podcast is how many notes that I want to take from the guests that are on. So I'm just kind of like, I'm just going on here or on the side, which is like, you know, there's all of these like the magic squares, and it's like, you know, how do you go and evaluate, you know, your business plan on a page? And like one of the things that I'm just listening to both of you, I'm like, okay, what does a company really need at a given point in time? Right. And I I have the advantage of like, you know, speaking with you for the better part of the past half year or so, um, around just like, hey, like, when do I need expertise versus when do I need full time? And I think that's the quotient that I'm realizing is it's like it's the expertise value versus I need this person the whole amount of time. Um, that that was like kind of like a big takeaway that I had, but just um I don't think there's enough of a recognition of that um today in the broader psyche. Like we're seeing how many fractional CROs are out there, fractional CMOs. Um, I'm seeing a business model where people are coming in that they're literally running SWAT teams, but they're typically teams of one, which I think is different about your business. You're actually facilitating SWAT team building. Um, so that was kind of like as a big takeaway that I had from this, which is hey, I gotta reevaluate when and why do I need a full-time person in a role versus when do I need expertise? And I think we've conflated the two. So that was my big takeaway from that 30 minutes or so. But what did you guys get out of just being in this dialogue with myself and with each other?

SPEAKER_02 33:07

Before I answer that, there's just just to elaborate on what you just said there, Egar. Uh, actually, if you get a good fractional that comes in and does that bit at the beginning, they'll tell you when you need somebody full-time. They're, they're, they're, they'll actually help you get to that point and go, you know what? Uh I'm actually getting to the point where what I'm doing is replication and actually the new stuff and the build and the growth piece, that there's less of that. You might want to start looking for a full-time person now because it's easier to manage. And and and I'll help you do it. I'll help you find the right guy or go. So that that that's an interesting piece. That another soft benefit benefit of getting the right fractional is that you get access to that pool of people that are available full-time and you get the right person in. Um, as for you know, the chat.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Sorry, can I can I just add to that? Can I just add to that piece as well there? Um, because that's that's a really important point. And and and that to take that one step further, you know, we're providing, or or and there are fractional uh uh out there, but we're providing fractional C-suite, you know, that that C level expertise. And as Alan said, what when when the time is right, they will identify that actually you don't need to replace me as a IE in the C-suite because we've now put everything together and there's a replicatable process. Actually, what you now need is just uh a director of maybe marketing or a VP of marketing, and again, it you the the fractional has helped with reducing the ongoing potential cost of the founder thinking that they need to bring in a full-time C-suite.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Well, maybe not, actually, it's it's lower than that now that you need to bring in so have we have we conflated definition and execution having to be in the same person? Like, is that what you're going and seeing and what you built out the past few years, Alan and Alex?

SPEAKER_02 35:08

Like the the definition and the the the strategy and the the quality thinking piece, I think it it is always going to be a fractional. And but and you could argue that you get that from traditional consultancy. Where the fractional strays away from the consultancy is the fractional will also execute on the plan for you. So when they help you with the strategy and they create the plan, the fractional will help start enacting that plan. But where where Alex is bang on and absolutely right is you'll get to a point down the plan where actually you don't need a fractional to be doing that anymore. And that's when you look for your full-time person. So you just do the day-to-day management and actually executing on what you hope is a very good plan that you've put in place that is going to last, you know, last the the about past the uh the test of time. You get the the fit-for-purpose resource on on a full-time basis. You're not stretching that resource in terms of looking for somebody that's got strategic critical thinking in their makeup because not everybody does. Uh, and if they are, they're probably not ahead of or a director. They've they've probably progressed beyond that. But particularly in that small and mid-sized company, I think there's a temptation to load the C-suite, and you don't need to, just have them for the time you need them. Have them to get you on the road, have them to put all the wheels on the truck, and then actually put a driver on the truck.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

You know, you went and talked about at I think at the beginning of the podcast, there I'm just kind of like the the the right person as well, right? And what I'm also realizing is it's like, look, there are people who want to work full-time. Yep. There are people who want to have high compensation, there's people who want equity, who want options, who want option value, whatever the heck it is. And I think what you're going and pointing to is well, maybe all you need is people who want to do this part-time because that's what goes and gets them their fun and excitement and satisfaction and contribution. And let's just accept that maybe that's the fit that you're going and looking for. And I think what this is is like that further reevaluation of how we've been building businesses for decades versus how we need to build new businesses in the 2020s. Like, that's that's my takeaway from this whole conversation. It's just like, hold on, like, what are we carrying forward as our business meant or mental models that are completely out of date, but we are trying to go and I don't know, scaffold them and give them foundations because all they worked for so long. But I'm like, guys, the average large business doesn't even make it 15 years today as a public company. 50 years ago, you'd be a public company for 75 years, and nobody talks about that.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

Typically, those people that um if you look at the roster of fractionals we've got, um, there's commonality throughout the pool of talent. Um, they all really like and get excited by transformation in whatever guise it is, whatever part of the business is. If I'm looking at a CTO or I'm looking at a CFO or I'm looking at a CRO, the thing that they're common amongst them is they all like transformation. And you know how I know that? Because I ask for it. I I ask the question, you know, and and and that's that's common across those resources because they're they're the they're the people that like doing it and and then actually a little they get a little turned off after a while once they've done that. They're not day-to-day, you know, kind of regular operators. So they they're they're keen to get onto their next one once they've fulfilled the brief. And and uh that that puts us in a nice place with the clients because and we I I have to explain to each of the clients, um, what you're not gonna get here is somebody that's gonna come in for uh like an interim, and then four months later you're gonna offer them the job and they're gonna take it. That's not it. This is okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

So that isn't it.

SPEAKER_02 38:57

This isn't a try to for you buy solution.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

Oh my god, there's like a whole other episode right there because it it is that exactly that transition of like, oh, I'm gonna bring you on, gonna have you stay, oh, then we're gonna have you become full-time, then you build on the team. Like, I I I I'm going through this right now. Like, I've spent all of 2026 so far, it's not very old as a year, and I'm like, how many things are actually still legitimately valid as a process, operating model, thinking model that's there? And it's not that like throw everything out because it's a new year or a new era, but I'm actually having to reevaluate where am I carrying forward legitimate thoughts that are out of date.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

And this this whole area of particularly in that in that you know small to mid-market, uh, the this whole area of how you grow your company, uh, that's evolved quickly. Um and and it's it's not it's also it's not just the the business practices that have changed, the people have changed that that are within these companies. You know, that that that big thing that we had a few years ago, the the C-word, it's changed the way people work, it's changed how people want to work. It's uh and and what's happened is people are settling down into a new uh post-COVID rhythm with hybrid working and different management types. So it it it it's it's natural that things are gonna keep changing over the next few years, and then we'll be into a new period of people have forgotten the old days. People will have forgotten before COVID within the next five years. They'll have forgotten all about how we used to do things because the workforce is ever evolving, and decision makers. I'm gonna sound so old, it's probably because I am. Decision makers, like policemen and like teachers, they get younger and younger. Okay, and and and we have to accept that they work in different ways, they have different working rhythms, and and we need to give them a way and a structure that fits how they work today and how they're going to want to work as they progress through these organizations.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

This is great. Oh man, I can keep going. Um I'm gonna have to pull the plug on this one, Jens. Uh but thank you for your contribution uh for this. Um sometimes I just think I should just start an open salon every two weeks and some people pop in.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

Pop in with a bear and hang out open mic sessions.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

Let's go back to the coffee houses of London from yesteryear and go from there. Well, Jim, thank you for this. Cheers.