Redefining Enough: Work, Family & the Myth of Balance

In this episode of Advantage, I sit down with registered clinical counsellor, group practice owner, coach, and podcast host Lisa Catallo for an honest conversation about burnout, perfectionism, and the pressure to “do it all.”

Together, we explore the tension between work, motherhood, relationships, and personal well-being.. and why true balance often feels more like a teeter totter than a perfect scale. Lisa shares her personal experience navigating burnout, the early signs she missed, and how shame, high expectations, and performance-based worth quietly fuelled the overwhelm.

We also talk about redefining self-care, learning to let go of perfectionism, creating healthier boundaries with work, and giving yourself permission to rest, pivot, and be imperfect.

Because sometimes healing begins with asking: What actually requires my energy right now?

For more information about Lisa's podcast and coaching, follow her at @grouppracticenetwork 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Hello and welcome to Advantage, the podcast that helps you shift from stress to strategy. I'm your host, Katerina McCurdy, a registered clinical counselor and former frontline worker, here to help you understand the patterns that fuel stress, anxiety, and burnout. In each episode, we'll unpack what's beneath the stress and explore ways to meet it with awareness and intention. Let's get started. Thank you, Lisa, so much for being here. Um I'm so grateful that we've been able to find time in our busy schedules to actually sit down and have a conversation. And I'm really looking forward to uh giving listeners the opportunity to get to know you and to hear your story because of the many things that I appreciate about you, I was thinking about this earlier, is that you are so genuine and so driven in the work that you do. Um I've often been I've admired your tenacity and how you persevere. And uh you've you know juggled a lot of different things. And uh I won't say too much because you're gonna be able to say it so much better than me. Um but before before we jump in, I'm wondering if you can share just a little bit about who you are and on a personal level and also professionally.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Who would have thought 10 years ago when we met that we'd be sitting here doing this?

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Hey, who am I professionally and personally?

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Um so professionally, I am a clinical counselor. Uh I would still call myself a group practice owner. I manage a space, have people working out of here. I coach um therapists who are starting and growing a group practice. So professionally. Um and I as a clinical counselor, I work with women and couples who have survived a traumatic experience. And personally, uh I am a mom, I am a grandma, I am a daughter of parents who are aging. Yeah. Um I wear a few different hats.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Yeah. But I I I think that's one of the things that I appreciate about your story is that there are so many different parts of your life that are relatable, that you're not just a business owner, you don't just wear these professional hats, but you also carry the load of being a daughter to aging parents and navigating motherhood and and you're doing all the things, you're trying to do all the things. Yeah. Uh, so I think there's a reality in that that is relatable and really valuable. I'm wondering if you can give us a little bit of a snapshot of, you know, what is a a typical week? If there is one, what does a typical week look like for you?

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Yeah. Uh personally and professionally. Oh, yeah. Okay. Cause it all kind of bleeds in. Yeah. Um, so I would see clinical clients, I see about 12 a week. I am doing coaching uh with business owners. I have a membership, and so we quite often have a call. I have my own podcast. I am trying to figure out social media for businesses. So I have a teenager at home and I have grown kids. And so I'm parenting, actively parenting, while also I get to be grandma once a week and see those little boys. Um yeah, a typical week, just yeah, switching those hats quite a bit, even throughout the day, caring for a lot of people, I would say.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

Yeah, a lot of pouring out, giving into, whether that's people or your business. Yeah. Is it hard for you to find time to pour into yourself?

SPEAKER_01 4:22

I would say I am not very good at self-care. Um, I have had to learn a bit more of that um and what that looks like. But uh yeah. Once I went to school, I hit the ground running and I didn't know I was an entrepreneur, which likes to be running all the time and is a component of stuff that I love, but also um, yeah, I don't know if I've ever been good at taking care of myself, but it definitely has been highlighted in the last few years that I really suck at that.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

Do you think that self-care is something that's learnt, that's modeled? Like I'm I like there's a genuine curiosity for me of why self-care can be so hard for people. It's also hard for me. Yeah. And I think a big factor in that is, you know, how many people have we watched and observed growing up in our industry, actually showing what self-care looks like and how to do that. Does that feel true for you in some way?

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Yeah, I think that's part of it. Also, at least when I was growing up or who I grew up under, you perform and your worth is based on your performance. Yeah. And so if you stop, uh, you're lazy. And lazy is not a good word in our family. And then I remember in school in our ethics class, there were like three or four people that their ethics project was on self-care. And I'm like, that's not ethics.

SPEAKER_03 6:12

No, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

But that may actually, now that I now that we're sitting there saying that, is like, well, obviously that wasn't something that I thought was important to do, right? Is taking care of yourself. And I don't think you realize how much when you're pouring into people, how important it is to get filled back up again in whatever way that looks like.

SPEAKER_02 6:37

Yeah. And I think that reminds me of what we just talked about before we started recording, that, you know, you're fine until you're not. Yeah. Right. You, you pour, you pour, you pour. And then I remember I've had moments where I've thought to myself, I'm like, wow, my cup is big. Like there's pride in that. Or I have, you know, I have a lot of capacity to just keep going. Um, and so that feels really rewarding on multiple levels until it no longer is, until it all kind of comes to a bit of a head. It's we don't always know what we need until until we get there.

unknown 7:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

And if you haven't watched somebody model it. Yeah. And I think too, like understanding what self-care actually is. Sometimes I don't actually like that term because it's what I picture it is, oh, you're going to the spa, or you're like quiet, you're selfish in a way. Um, you're removing yourself from people. Um, and so even for me, redefining what self-care means, like for me, it's social um outside of taking care of people. Um, it is reading a book sometimes or listening to a book, um, and being present in it and allowing that to fill me up as opposed to how do I take care of everybody else in this room? Learning how to, and what do I, what can I take away?

SPEAKER_02 8:11

The word play came to my mind as you were talking. And I, that's something that has been resonating with me too, even when I'm out with my kids. How can I engage in play? And it really is such a such a wonderful way to be more present in the moment. So, okay, here's a question that I've been curious or thinking about. Uh, where would you say you feel the most tension between your roles, whether that's as a therapist, a business owner, as a mom, or podcast host.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

The tension for me comes quite often in the parenting. Um probably less now than it used to, but especially in starting my businesses, it was quite consuming. And so the guilt of am I spending enough time being present with my children? Um, and also at the same time, guilt because I've got this huge list of stuff that I need to get done at work.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

I am a perfectionist, uh, which I think a few of your guests have noted.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Um, and so I want to do all of those things perfectly. And uh, so there's definitely tension. If I'm at work, I'm thinking about my kid, kid or kids. And then if I'm with them, I'm yeah, how do I get all this stuff done?

SPEAKER_02 9:46

So, okay, I'm hearing a lot of okay, you know, heightened expectations. Anytime I hear perfectionism, which I'm also very familiar with, I always go back to expectations because I think that's what carries a lot of the weight. Um, self-imposed expectations, how things should be done, how much we feel like we should get done. What's your thought process in trying to manage that for yourself? Or how do you try and create a little bit more balance?

SPEAKER_00 10:15

Now, one of your questions was like, how do you have balance in there?

SPEAKER_01 10:18

I don't, it feels more like a teeter-totter than actually a I like that, uh, something that is a scale that balances out. Um, so learning to give myself permission that sometimes I need to check out and just be present with my family and leave work stuff. And sometimes actually I need to get work stuff done because that is creating stress or um taking away from some of those. And so, yeah, learning how you how you go back and forth on that teeter-totter. I'm picturing like my kids would stand in the center of it and make the teeter-totter go up and down. And um, I don't think it's ever completely straight.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

Yeah. Oh, I I really like that visual. Um, and I'm reflecting on just some of like my own research and books that I've read. I remember reading that there is no such thing as balance. And so I think this teeter-totter, which is new visual for me, is a really accurate way of looking at it. It's it's moment by moment, day by day. It sounds like you're just you're trying to connect with yourself, even uh what you're carrying, what you're feeling, what you're holding, and what is a priority in that moment, in that day for you. So that's a decision that you get to make along the way. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Yeah. Even as you're saying that, like a lot of the work that I do clinically is um so check in with yourself. How do you have a voice in what you need right now? And so if I'm telling my clients that, I should be doing that. I think that the word presence again, like checking in. What do I, how do I take what I need in this situation?

SPEAKER_02 12:11

I wonder if there were any early signs that alluded to, okay, this this is feeling like too much for me. Or okay, no, I'm starting to feel overwhelmed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Yeah. If I look back, I actually didn't even use the term burnout for myself. Somebody else used it. And then I was like, oh, yeah, that's that's what's going on for me. I resented the people who were working for me, but I scrambled to be more for people. Um and worked so much, like uh up early in the morning, then coming working all day, then coming home and working on things. And in some ways, that fed like, here's my worth in some ways. And uh, so if I look back on that, those would be signs that I know, well, using that hindsight now and noticing, even when we're talking about the balance, like, why am I doing this right now? Is it because I'm scrambling and heading down that slope of burnout, or is it something that needs to be done? Um yeah, I was tired a lot. I was grumpy, I was withdrawing now as I look back.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

You mentioned a really important key theme. And and you let me know if this doesn't quite express how you felt, but I'm I'm hearing these recurring themes of like abandoning our sense of self, which happens and can happen in burnout. And of course, we don't see it that way at the time or even leading up to it. But sometimes the demand of our work or the demand of our role, whether that's as a parent or as a business owner or employee, can sometimes lead us to this place where we feel like we need to abandon our sense of self to do more, to be more than what we can actually give. Um, and that's I think that's where a lot of disconnect internally happens, but then also from others. Um, and so you talked about your self-care being I need to connect with other people. Do you find that when you connect with others, you feel like you can come back to yourself a little bit more?

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Yeah, relationship is really important to me, having connection. Uh when I am by myself too much, I withdraw and I don't let people in as much. Um and so even if I'm just in other people's presence, I don't know if I'm articulating it properly, but yes, if I am not, if I don't have some good healthy relationships, um it contributes to unhealth and within me.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

Okay. Are there any internal pressures that you carry?

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Like that inside voice that tells me I'm not doing enough.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

What does your inner critic say?

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Tell us more. The inner critic, while the perfectionist, right? Like, um, I need to do this right or people won't love me. Right. Uh and so as a group practice owner, too, people would leave. And I really had to work through in supervision and therapy, like they're not leaving me. They're making a choice for their business, but I was translating it as I'm not doing enough, I'm not measuring enough, I am not enough for them. So they're leaving me. And so really had to work through a lot of that self-talk in there.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

Yeah, those heightened expectations that drive. Here's another little tangent that I promise is related to our conversation here, but that's been really heavy on my mind because I personally struggle. I think we all struggle with shame. So we'll just name that. And I know that shame shows up in our expectations as I should, I have to, I need to, but mostly I should have, I shouldn't have. And I know that it is such a strong motivator to get things done. And I do believe it's connected to this. You mentioned this internal belief of I'm not enough. Um, it's not enough. And uh it's such a strong motivator that we keep it, not because we want to feel shame, but because it's doing something for us, it's serving us in some way, and it sounds like that's relatable for you too. Keeps you going, keeps you performing. Yeah, yeah. So if you're willing to share, I'm curious how you've wrestled with some of that shame or even just the expectations of what you feel like you should have to do in order to um prove to yourself that okay, I am enough. This is enough.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Well, we could be here for a while because that plays a role in so many different ways of how I show up. Shame is very familiar. Um, I think the part where it contributed to burnout, which would be kind of more in line with what you're what we're talking about here. Um so before somebody put that word to me of burnout, yeah. Um, well, and through the process of it, I think even just naming burnout for me, I'm like, no, like I'm a leader and I'm a parent and I've got my shit together. Um, I can't be burnt out. But yeah, just the shame in so I'm not performing properly if I'm burnt out. Um, and if you burn out, you're supposed to slow down and take care of yourself and change some of the ways that you show up. And so the shame in that. Um it also I had to make some really big decisions in now how does that look to take care of me? And they were hard decisions to make um because it didn't align with who I wanted to be, who I wanted to show up as and the roles that I have in my life. Sounds like a big sacrifice.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Yeah, lots. Right? Sometimes to give up. And sometimes that means giving up kind of your hopes or what you had dreamt of for the sake of living more in alignment with, like you said, your values. Yeah, for the sake of me. For the sake of you, putting yourself first. Yes. Man, that's uncomfortable. What the heck? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

I grew up in the church and everybody's first.

unknown 19:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Right. And so you're sp and there's components of that, like servant leadership, like put other people's first. But if you don't know how to take care of yourself, how do you take care of others? Right. So how do you be equal in importance as opposed to put everybody first in your doormat?

SPEAKER_02 20:08

Has in or even how has your relationship with work changed since all of this wrestling that you've been doing?

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Uh so my work stuff is not on my phone anymore. Okay. Uh, because it was too easy to check. Uh I have realized um that if I'm not connecting with some of those important people, um I am actually not as good at my job. And so carving out that time. Um so you've put in stronger boundaries. Yeah, yeah, clearer boundaries. Um and also like I love what I do for work, and so giving myself permission to love what I do, and that teeter-totter of like, okay, so personal relationships need a little bit more attention, that's okay. Work won't suffer permission, I think, in some ways.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

Um I just want to touch on that I I'm a big fan of pointing out contradictions because I've learned to do that in my life, but then also allowing those to coexist. Yeah. And you mentioned one, which I think is very relatable, especially in my life, which is that I can love what I do and it can still be a lot. Yeah. It can it can still feel overwhelming. And holding those two opposing forces, which is what it feels like, can be really tricky and hard without bypassing your own needs and yeah, and and what you yeah, what you need. Yeah. What are some things that have genuinely helped you manage? Your stress or even things that you do now that maybe you didn't know before that are helping you prevent burnout again.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Yeah. Finding time, finding time for myself. Um and so a couple of examples that I would use that just to kind of um highlight that. So I used to go away on weekend retreats by myself. Okay. And I would work the whole time. From the moment I got to the hotel room until two days, 48 hours later. And now I work, I have a list to go through, and then I go out for a nice dinner, I go for a really good walk. Like there's different components in slowing down, not just going 100%. Um my 16-year-old is very good at saying, like, I think maybe you need to just stop and that it's okay to do that. So permission, I think, is also uh a big word in that for me. I have been an intentional about relationships as well. Um I've been a little bit more organized in systems, and so when I have structure, then it's not like chaos and everything has to get done. I know a little bit about more about how that would work and when for me. So prioritizing. Okay, that's prioritizing, but also like, yeah, so let's say social media stuff, right? So I plan that out and I post it for the next uh two months because now I'm not thinking about that all the time. So I have that system in place. And so stuff like that, making my life a little more structured helps me then take care of myself.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

It's a little more organized. Sounds like it really pays off to be organized.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Most of the time, yes.

SPEAKER_02 24:08

Yeah, it's like creating your own assistant.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Okay. So as a group practice coach, I am preaching systems all the time, organization because I think it frees you up.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Um just yeah, be present and to work towards the goals that you have.

SPEAKER_02 24:25

Yeah, okay. And then earlier you talked about where it used to always just be about work. You've now integrated more pleasurable activities, like things that you can do.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Actually, in the last couple of weeks. Um, so menopause has been such a gift. It's sarcasm. I will wake up at like 4 30 in the morning. Oh, that's early. I can't fall asleep. So quite often I'll work for a bit before we start, I start the day. And when I get to the end of the day, when it's like three or four o'clock in the afternoon and I'm tired before I used to just like, okay, well, it's only three or four. If you were working an eight-hour day in an office, you would have to work until five o'clock. You can keep going. You can make it all happen. And now I'm like, yeah. So if I start at five o'clock in the morning, I'm done at three o'clock in the afternoon or whatever time, right? That's even a 10-hour day. Technically, I would be done earlier. Um, so not measuring my worth by what time of day I stop working, even, which sounds really stupid, even as I say it. But um yeah, I used to work eight to four all the time. And so in my mind, that has been something. And so even just giving myself permission to kick off and not check my emails. Hey, I'm not gonna respond to your text if it's a work text. I'm only gonna respond to it uh if it's in an email. Um, I see my grandchildren on Wednesdays, and so I leave work early to go and do that. There's another one on the way, so that's going to probably take up all of my Wednesdays, and so sometimes it's fighting some of that dialogue, too. Of no, these relationships are really important to me, and I'm investing in them. Maybe sometimes that'll mean I have to work on a Saturday. But I'm again, what's what are my choices here? What do I need? And that has really helped with that relationship with work.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

So even in that, I hear the priority is not always structure, but it's about what's needed. Structure with flexibility. Well, and I I like I've read that flexibility is one of the greatest preventative strategies for like chronic stress is to be able to go with the flow, is to be able to pivot and say, you know, I had this plan, this agenda for today or this week. Yes. And here I am feeling overwhelmed, feeling exhausted because I didn't sleep where I was up at four in the morning. And then to be able to go, okay, like, can I give myself permission to pivot in this moment and not feel like I have to stay glued to this structure that I had today?

SPEAKER_01 27:30

If you come back to that teeter-totter example, yeah, like, yes, structure helps me pretty much keep the teeter-totter level, but also I might, it's gonna slant uh different ways, right? And so I learn that skill. Maybe I need a better core uh in order to, you know, manage the up and down. And so yeah, it's not it's not gonna be perfectly straight. And how do I be okay with the up and the down?

SPEAKER_02 28:04

Can we speak honestly about sleep and energy? Because you brought that up. Yeah. And as I was listening to you, I'm thinking, okay, how many of us don't get enough sleep? We don't sleep well, we're up at four in the morning, whether that's your body doing its thing or there just being like such an overwhelming amount of anxiety or stress. Where do you find your energy? Uh is that a moment by moment thing too?

SPEAKER_01 28:34

I think in a lot of ways. It's also so maybe some of that stuff around work then is um or the balance. So my weekends, uh, it's okay sometimes to not have anything planned on the weekend because I haven't been sleeping well. Climbing into bed at nine o'clock at night, even though my teen won't fall asleep until whatever time. And there's again that word permission that this is something that I need. Maybe I won't go to sleep, but just the fact that I'm in bed and quiet and starting that slowing down process. Um, and then if I wake up at four, it's still like six or seven hours of sleep, technically.

SPEAKER_02 29:21

Um yeah, maybe that's a little bit of it. Okay. So permission to cut certain things out or uh pay a lot of attention to where you pour your time into. Yeah. Because that that will either give or deplete your energy.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

Yeah. And I have a lot of like all the things in my life right now, I really love them and really enjoy them. And so they continue to give me energy. I probably am running, not probably, I am running on less sleep than I need. And um, so then I get a cold, like I've got uh starting right now, and then there's a reinforcement that you need to slow down and take care of yourself.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

We've probably touched on this already a little bit, but I'm wondering if we can name what are what is something or some of the things that you feel like you've had to let go of in order to make things more sustainable.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

I've had to be okay with being imperfectly perfect. Yeah. So doing it the best that I can. Um, you and I have talked about like what my podcast started out as, what my social media started. Like, if you go back to when it started, it on mine was not something you want to watch. And even now, like some of these things need to be good enough because if I try to do them perfectly, I'm not an expert in all of these areas and I'm showing up.

SPEAKER_03 31:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Um, and so that applies to parenting now too. I think when I was younger, I like I needed to be a really good parent as a therapist. I'm like, I know how I'm screwing them up now. Um, and so I can't do that. And so yeah, maybe they go and talk to the therapist about me down the road. Um, but if they know that I'm honest and I'm real and um own my mistakes, and that applies to work and to home, I think. Like it's really important to me to be authentic. Um, that you will find the same Lisa in the room with my kids as you will um presenting somewhere, um, as you will when somebody's asking me about business. So that means I'm gonna let you down sometimes. And I have to be okay with that and own it, and not like, oh well, that's you have to deal with that. Um but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

I I really like that. There's a I don't know, it just seems very inviting to give yourself permission to not be perfect, and I realize that that can only come from you. That can't be external. I mean, people can give you that permission and that might be really valuable. Um, but it's not the same as you being able to meet yourself and say, no, it really is like it's okay. It doesn't have to be, you know, A, B, and C. Yeah. Uh, and to be a little bit messy in that, and then hopefully meet yourself with some of that compassion and choose to believe that it is enough. I think there's a difference between and usually when this conversation comes up of like it's when people communicate it's not enough or I believe that it's not enough, the question that follows is who is it not enough for? Yeah. And I think we forget to ask ourselves that. Um, but it comes out as, oh, it's not enough for these people, but is it enough for me in this moment with what I'm able to give? Is it honoring of the capacity that I have? Um, so yeah, I like how you how you put that permission to not have to be perfect is healing.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

I think people want to know you're not perfect too, right? Like, because then they don't have to be perfect.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

Well, nobody can relate to perfectionism and it nor does it exist, right? Like obviously there's no such thing as perfect, but but yeah, that's it's funny how that goes out the window. We forget that why yeah, no one can relate to this anyway. So why not, you know, allow ourselves to be imperfect. Um why don't we end on this final question? I'm wondering what do you wish more people understood about this concept of doing it all? What would be one takeaway you hope others can can have from this?

SPEAKER_01 34:19

Maybe it comes to that like prioritize prioritization in all the things that you're doing right now. What do you have capacity for to show up the way that you want to? And where can you let some things slide or not? It doesn't have to be all ten roles be equally important at the same time because you can't sustain that, that you're gonna burn out, you're gonna let people down, you're going to disappoint yourself. Um and so that's what requires your energy now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:59

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. I really appreciate your time and your wisdom and your willingness to openly share some of your journey. I think there's again so much there that um is relatable. And I think, yeah, there's something healing about that. So I I appreciate you and and your time.

unknown 35:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

Um and your information for those that are curious and interested in learning more about you and and what you do.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Thank you. Thank you for all that you do. Well, I think this is a really important conversation and just naming a lot of the things that lead to burnout and how people can protect themselves. You're doing important work. Thank you, Kat.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

Thanks for listening. If you haven't already, please subscribe on Spotify and Apple so you don't miss future episodes. You can also connect with me on Instagram at advantage.podcast for updates and extra resources. To learn more about my counseling services, visit vantagecounseling.com. Until next time, take a step back, breathe, and give yourself the advantage.