Accountability Ain't for Amateurs: How to Lead with Results

Avoiding conflict and accountability? You’re holding your team back. In Episode 3, Cathy and Ivan delve into why accountability is non-negotiable for effective leadership performance among entrepreneurs and business leaders who act as one, and how to implement it without hesitation or fear of fallout. We’ll show you how to stop renegotiating deadlines and start following through on expectations that drive results.

Here’s what you’ll learn:

• What accountability in leadership looks like (hint: it's not just about calling people the f$ck out).
• Why most leaders avoid accountability—and the cost of doing so.
• The steps to set clear expectations and hold yourself and your team accountable.
• How to use the Advancing Questions® to stay grounded and move your team forward, not just backpedal.

This episode is for leaders who want to achieve results and stop letting excuses get in the way.

4 Takeaways:

1. Explore Wingspan’s Leader Team Coaching & Advising — the proven path for leaders ready to multiply performance across their teams. Schedule a Clarity Call with one of our expert Advisors right now!
2. Subscribe to the Wingspan Newsletter — get practical leadership insights, podcast episode deep-dives, client spotlights, and weekly tools delivered straight to your inbox.
3. Check out our YouTube Channel for unfiltered clips on behavioral performance and leadership actions that actually work.
4. 📲 Text us for leadership performance advice — real answers for real leaders.

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Transcript

Cathy Maday 0:00

Relationships are usually one of the reasons people are afraid to exercise accountability.

Ivan Konermann 0:06

Welcome to the Leading Without the BS podcast. I'm Ivan. Today is episode three. Not two, three. And we're going to be talking about accountability.

Cathy Maday 0:16

Big

Ivan Konermann 0:16

numbers.

Cathy Maday 0:17

And I'm Cathy. Yes. This

Ivan Konermann 0:20

is also my beautiful wife and co-host. So today we'll be talking about accountability, talking about the... Well, seriously, it's about the stress and frustration a lot of folks feel because they don't know what the heck to do. They probably know at some level that they're not using accountability as eating their lunch, and it can really create problems for them and for teams.

Cathy Maday 0:42

And incredibly costly for the business and for relationships, which we'll get into because relationships are usually one of the reasons people are afraid. to exercise accountability. So I'm glad we're covering this today because on a daily basis, working with leaders, all different kinds of teams, all different kinds of companies, this is something that I'm focusing on with them so that they can build stronger, healthier performance.

Ivan Konermann 1:19

Yeah, I also see it every single day. Yeah. Awesome. So with that, let's jump in. The first thing, let's talk about what leaders do when they're not actually holding people accountable. So what they do in lieu of accountability.

Cathy Maday 1:35

Yeah, lots of autopilot habits around that. Also, some tendencies from stress. So lots of stress zone. Lots of autopilot that's happening. And here's my favorite. I'm guilty of this. Sometimes instead of holding someone accountable, I'll just do it myself.

Ivan Konermann 1:56

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Cathy Maday 1:58

And how many of you, as entrepreneurs and leaders who act like one, how many of you are guilty of the, I'll just do it myself?

Ivan Konermann 2:07

Yep, I can see that.

Cathy Maday 2:08

That's a big one.

Ivan Konermann 2:09

Yeah. One of the ones I see the most from folks is, and I've done this too, is to ignore it. Folks are saying to themselves, and I've said this to myself, is I'm not sure how to approach this. I don't want to come across like a big a-hole. And because they... and i have felt this i'm not sure what to do it just becomes a okay well screw it i'm just going to punt yeah i'm just going to put the blinders on i'm not going to see that problem anymore and just hope it goes away yeah and of course it doesn't it just gets worse

Cathy Maday 2:43

another one is that people leaders will rationalize so the entrepreneurs and leaders that we work with they're running 200 miles an hour Um, lots of pressure. They're operating under a lot of pressure. And so, uh, they'll just, yeah, it, it's, it's easier. It's easier to, to just continue to roll with things. Rationalize. Yeah. Hey, I don't want to put more burden. on my team. I'm already asking them to do a lot. So they'll rationalize and accidentally just offer up excuses on a plate.

Ivan Konermann 3:29

With themselves too, not even getting something from the other person. They'll just negotiate with themselves to rationalize and not do it. One of the things that I've seen, and my dad was, and I love him, he was big on this, was minimal, a very low level conversation, low level conversation, low level conversation, like a two, two, two, 15. And boy, when the fuse burned out, it was an explosion and it was, holy shit, like it got hot fast. And so people do that a lot, the hockey stick or the burn, burn, burn, explode thing. Oh,

Cathy Maday 4:07

I definitely did that. Because that's also one of those primo martyr moments behaviors is I'm going to, you know, I'm going to shoulder it and I'm going to deal with it. And, and then all of a sudden,

Ivan Konermann 4:22

uh, yeah. Which is a great point that sometimes these things will coexist with each other. So the two, two, two, 12 or 15, whatever can coexist with, uh, I'll just do it myself. Yeah. Can coexist with, uh, a minute, say anything or a minute, say anything that's really accountability because it's so watered down or fluffy. The other person is walking away from a conversation going, Oh, I don't know what that was about. It seemed like I was in a little bit of trouble, although it wasn't really clear about why. And I don't know what to do with that conversation, so I'm just going to write it off.

Cathy Maday 4:56

Yeah, so lots of tendencies around avoiding it. Also, people can come at it from another direction, which you could talk about this because this was one of your tendencies.

Ivan Konermann 5:08

Yeah, to go hard and fast really quick. Yeah, so in the military, it was pretty common. If someone was screwing something up, you'd let them know it and know on certain terms and usually high volume and in their face because that was what worked in the military for a whole host of reasons. That was effective. We also signed up for that, and we knew this is not a kind of gentler kind of situation.

Cathy Maday 5:34

Well, that's just it. In the military, people are operating in a whole different system.

Ivan Konermann 5:39

Yeah.

Cathy Maday 5:40

And now, in a company, in a business, it's a different ballgame. It's a different system.

Ivan Konermann 5:46

Yeah. Yeah, and so for anyone who's listening who is former service, anyone who's watching who's prior military or current military, just know that those tools of going high-intensity We're not at all encouraging you to throw those out. We're encouraging you to be incredibly selective about when you choose to use those and to use them really thoughtfully, hopefully applied with other things that we're going to get into or the things you can learn.

Cathy Maday 6:10

Well, keeping it in your performance zone at high intensity is still productive. Yeah. Operating from the stress zone, that's a different ballgame. That's when we are reacting and sometimes we're regretting afterwards how we've behaved in that and how we reacted in that situation. That's another tendency that people have. They're in that overlap of stress zone and autopilot. And they're falling back into ways that they handle that stress, perhaps when someone else isn't doing what they're responsible for doing. And that can look pretty ugly.

Ivan Konermann 6:53

Yeah. Which all comes back to this is one of those really important, really critical skills that like a lot of skills, people don't. often see good examples of this in the workplace. So it's completely understandable if, again, anyone listening or watching is going, gosh, I wanna do a good job, totally get it. And it's so rare for people to consistently see other people practicing these things in a healthy, productive way. So if you're thinking, man, I haven't seen what good accountability looks like, you're not alone. That's really, really normal.

Cathy Maday 7:27

Well, think about what most people think when they hear the word accountability. Conflict.

Ivan Konermann 7:36

Confrontation.

Cathy Maday 7:39

Babysitting. Micromanaging. So there's a lot of baggage that people have around the word accountability. And of course that, that perspective shapes their tendencies and their behaviors around it and how they approach it or completely avoid approaching it.

Ivan Konermann 7:59

Which is awesome because what you just said beautifully ties into what you said before about people approach this from, can come in from autopilot and just ignore, I don't see it. Or they come in from the stress zone where they've, they've, crank themselves up because of these things. So yeah, those two pieces tie together really, really beautifully.

Cathy Maday 8:20

They also will, so this has happened a lot in, mostly in larger companies, is because they have formal HR, disciplinary processes and policies, they see accountability as formal discipline. I'm going to put someone on a performance improvement plan, or I'm going to give them a written warning. And what they're missing, and that's, of course, what we get to bring to the table, because what they're missing are all the different... multiple, multiple ways for them to exercise healthy accountability before ever going into the territory of bringing in HR and introducing a formal escalating discipline.

Ivan Konermann 9:09

I actually had a leader one time say something effective. Oh, well, accountability, that's when HR gets involved.

Cathy Maday 9:17

Yes.

Ivan Konermann 9:18

Yeah. And I'm like, no, whoa, golly, buddy, hold on, back up the bus. You can do such... daily, routine, simple steps to bring accountability to the table without it becoming a formal thing that you may head off a bunch of those experiences of putting someone on a PIP or whatever else if you're using accountability on a more routine basis.

Cathy Maday 9:39

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And that's where, again, some of that baggage that people have and comes from having experienced some... poor examples of how, if you've been on the receiving end of someone, quote unquote, holding you accountable, except it really was behavior that was punitive in some way, shape or form, not healthy accountability.

Ivan Konermann 10:07

Which brings up something really key, which is for the person who is going to be practicing solid accountability, this may not be a comfortable conversation. I want to make sure we're really honest with you all that as we get, and I'm getting ahead just a teeny bit, when we get to that spot, you may have some butterflies. You may not feel comfortable. That doesn't mean this isn't still a productive and effective conversation. So just keep in mind that, again, for everyone out there, it may still feel a little awkward for you as a person holding the other person accountable. That can be okay. I encourage you to make sure that you're really dialed in on what you're going for, what you're going to say, how you're working, working to say it, to make sure that you've got a healthy, solid message.

Cathy Maday 10:47

Yeah. And so, and if you want to jump forward into what to do about it.

Ivan Konermann 10:54

Well, there's one more piece that pops up. You're

Cathy Maday 10:58

jumping way forward again.

Ivan Konermann 11:00

No, no, no. Come

Cathy Maday 11:01

on back. Come on back.

Ivan Konermann 11:02

I'm coming back. There's one more thing that leaders do instead of accountability too, which is they'll immediately set a new deadline. So such and such was due yesterday. Monday at noon. And then Tuesday morning, the leader will say to the person, hey, where is that? Oh, we'll get it to you today by five o'clock. No, they

Cathy Maday 11:19

won't say that. Here's what they're saying. Hey, whatever, your presentation was due. In fact, I just had a session this morning with a leader around this. Your presentation was due so legal can review it. And they're not saying, I'll get it to you by 5 p.m. What they're saying is, oh, well, I had the plant managers meeting. I had this. I had that. They're just rolling through their list of excuses as to why they didn't get it done. And then the other person who was attempting with the deadline just says, oh, okay, well, how about Wednesday? Could you get it to me by Wednesday?

Ivan Konermann 12:00

It's

Cathy Maday 12:02

all so mushy.

Ivan Konermann 12:04

Even that would be pretty good. A lot of times it's just, well, get it to me when you can. I used to have a manager who would say, and I would go a little bit bananas. He would say, oh, get it to me when you get a chance. And I'm thinking, dude, when I get a chance, isn't a great deadline. I don't know how to fit that into my darn calendar because I don't know how important this is. So,

Cathy Maday 12:23

yeah. And that is a perfect time to go into something really important to keep in mind is that your strong performance and as you are working with your team members to support them all in becoming strong players for you. Strong players want a deadline.

Ivan Konermann 12:44

Yeah, true.

Cathy Maday 12:45

And so let's shift gears into this. We've covered how pervasive this is, how problematic this is. It's costly on so many different levels, including for lots of individuals and the stress and frustration that they have. Now let's dip into, okay, what the hell do we do about it?

Ivan Konermann 13:04

Well, there's two more things to hit on about how come people still avoid it. So one of them is people will say, well, I just, I want to be nice. I'm not sure how to approach this and not sound like a big jerk. Sure. So that, and then also people will sometimes say, and this is another bit of a mind bender for me, is it's not my job to chase them. If they can't do this, I'm just going to fire them and find someone else. And so managers will let themselves right off the hook to have that accountability conversation. It goes even further than what we talked about before, managers wanting to give that to HR. Okay.

Cathy Maday 13:38

Which is creating, sure, give it to HR, or it just ends up creating a whole other list of problems for them when they're approaching it that way. And in some companies, even if a manager says, oh, you know, I'll just fire them, they know that's not really going to happen. It takes a whole process to term an employee if that's happening. In a small business, if you're... Firing someone, well, you're going to have a hard time keeping solid talent on board if that's your approach.

Ivan Konermann 14:14

Yeah. So now let's go into... Okay,

Cathy Maday 14:17

now let's go into what the hell do we do

Ivan Konermann 14:20

about it? What to do about it. So let's pretend the thing is due Monday. Well, let's pretend first of all you have a deadline, which, by the way, most folks don't even have.

Cathy Maday 14:29

Before tactically getting in to how to exercise it, I first encourage people to start to practice a different mindset. So in previous episodes, we've talked about activating language. Activating language is one of the most powerful frameworks in the Wingspan behavioral performance system. And so using language, like we talked about earlier, really check in with yourself. What are your habits around how you're thinking about, what's your habit of language in how you're thinking about conflict? So again, a lot of people who are afraid of confrontation or conflict, they are already labeling accountability as conflict. And then of course they're shying away from it. They're avoiding it. Versus rather than thinking it's a confrontation, I encourage you to start just switching that and telling yourself it's a conversation. So really paying attention to what has your language been as you're thinking about it, and then choosing to relabel it. There's a lot of science behind this, and in fact we could put a couple links in the show notes for this for you guys. Lot of science behind changing what you're calling something will change your energy and of course your behavior and how you approach it.

Ivan Konermann 16:03

Adding to that is, And then for folks who work with us a lot in our practice guide, we actually have a page at the end of the section on accountability where we talk about alternate language to use because a lot of times, not only for the leader, also for the team member, saying we're going to have an accountability conversation is flat out terrifying because both sides are oftentimes not, they built it up to be this giant monster. So just calling it something different. We're going to talk about staying on track. We're going to have a check-in. We're going to do this. We're going to do that. So making it not an accountability conversation just putting a different label on it right away can just lower the temp

Cathy Maday 16:41

absolutely so I love that so these first two pieces for you guys first is focus on the language for what we call your inside game what is the language you're using with yourself when you're thinking about this the second one is your outside game it's what's the language you're using yes and I love that you're bringing that in is talking about staying on track checking Stepping in, talking about progress, just different language rather than accountability. Which again, it can trigger this completely unnecessary friction. in the exchange, in the relationship, completely preventable.

Ivan Konermann 17:28

Yeah, yeah. So where else do you want to go before we jump into some simple technical bits around?

Cathy Maday 17:34

Well, still a little bit around mindset. So as we work with leaders on their behavioral performance, we are covering behavior, communication, and mindset. And of course, all of those are integrated and connected. More around the mindset, and that is what is usually... what leaders often say, when they start to learn about healthy accountability with Wingspan, they're shocked when we tell them accountability is an essential form of support. They have never, I mean, their words, they have never thought about it that way, ever. And so healthy, high-performing teams, accountability is an essential form of support that team members practice on a daily basis.

Ivan Konermann 18:23

Yeah, which also really is key because it reminds me of the fact that I've been on teams, I'm sure you've been on teams, or folks listening and watching have been on teams, where... People weren't held accountable. Peers of yours, perhaps, weren't held accountable. Peers of mine or yours weren't held accountable. And it's frustrating as hell to go, wait a minute, I'm working my butt off, I'm cranking through, I'm hitting goals, and clown boy over here is not, and yet he's getting the same pay, the same benefits, et cetera, et cetera. What's up with that?

Cathy Maday 18:58

Exactly. In fact, I was scrolling through Instagram last night, and I'm exhausted, but ready to go to bed. I'm scrolling through Instagram, and there was this little cartoon where it's a lady, looks like in the 1900s, and she's there like leaning on the table smoking a cigarette with it with her cat there and this really I don't know just really funny look on her face and it said when you finally realize that giving a hundred and ten percent for the same pay that Chad is getting for forgetting to do his job. Anyway, it's funnier if you see the

Ivan Konermann 19:41

image. The message is spot on though. And it also though paints a real picture for a manager that sometimes they haven't got their shit together. There's people I've worked for who didn't hold me accountable and I could tell very quickly. I remember a light switch moment with one boss I had who will remain nameless. And I just remember thinking, huh, he didn't hold me accountable to this. Just note for myself. I remember saying to myself, okay, that's how this was gonna go. And I remember telling him, like basically telling myself if I wanted to, I could give myself space here and not work as hard. I didn't choose to do that. I knew that that was definitely in the cards.

Cathy Maday 20:23

Yeah, yeah. And yesterday, working with the team where they have been really focusing on building these leader behavior systems within their team, within their business, they were concerned. So the leaders were concerned that, okay, well, if we start to hold these team members accountable, they're gonna leave. And then if they

Ivan Konermann 20:54

leave- We hear that all the time. We hear that all the time.

Cathy Maday 20:58

Of course, we're laughing though. I mean, it is an important risk to consider though. Here's the thing. hey, if they leave, well then my stronger players, they're gonna have more work to do, and then they might leave, and here's what's happening. And this has happened over and over again. I said to them, I said nearly always, your team members that are stressed from more work, that is far more palatable than if they're stressed from seeing their peer.

Ivan Konermann 21:31

Not

Cathy Maday 21:32

be held accountable.

Ivan Konermann 21:33

Yeah, get away with murder.

Cathy Maday 21:35

Sure, okay, that's, yes. They're just sliding by, not being held accountable, their bullshit behavior being tolerated. That is a fantastic way to lose your strong team members. Yeah. Firing, if it comes to that. First of all, exercising healthy accountability, like we talked about before, that can resolve a lot of issues before it ever gets to, some more formal discipline or potentially terminating employment for a person though still far better more productive for the entire team

Ivan Konermann 22:09

yeah because it's also such a key tool when leaders do show that they're able to bring accountability to the table they really set themselves apart i've seen this i'm sure you've seen this where the folks who are able to flip that switch in a productive in a healthy way whole team members accountable, keep things moving. Usually they're hitting their goals. They're hitting their targets. They're keeping on track. Their team members are individually happier, which is how come they're more productive. So it's this really virtuous cycle of when they practice accountability, they shine and then they're really indicating both to their managers and other people in the organization, I can take on more responsibility.

Cathy Maday 22:50

Yeah. Well, and it's even more than they're being happy. So again, a lot of... A lot of managers are worried about holding someone accountable because they want their team members to be happy. And your strong players, what I say to those managers is I'm gonna see you're happy and I'm gonna raise you. And what I mean by that is instead of wanting to help your team members be happy, want to help them to feel proud. To feel accomplished because strong players absolutely want the accountability because they know that's that's they know it's an important form of support they want to bring their best game and they again they feel fulfilled and proud and accomplished which is way more meaningful than quote-unquote happy. And what people usually mean by happy is comfortable. I want them

Ivan Konermann 23:49

to be comfortable. Oh, yeah, no, no. I meant happy was a shorthand for fulfilled, proud of what they've done, and also confident that they're on track. This is another key part about accountability that a lot of times people forget. And I had a conversation with a leader this morning who was describing one of his folks who is actually pretty senior in the organization and doesn't want to be held accountable to metrics. In the conversation, I said, having metrics helps people know when they're on track. And that creates incredible confidence that, oh, I know exactly what good looks like. I can make sure I'm hitting that. And then at the end of the day, at the end of the month, at the end of the year, I'm going to be acknowledged for hitting that. I'm not going, well, I haven't been held accountable. I haven't given a clear-cut target. I don't know how in the heck I'm doing. So the end of the year, it's a roll of the dice. what kind of performance conversation I'm going to have, because that's unnerving as

Cathy Maday 24:42

hell. Well, one of our team members was just sharing with me this morning that, because we were talking about the podcast focus on accountability, and she was saying there were a lot of times, hopefully she meant before working for Wingspan, but there were a lot of times where she was sitting there spinning her wheels, not exactly even thinking clear on what she was expected to be doing. And that didn't feel good. She loves to produce and contribute. She wants to make meaningful impact. And so it was really more stressful for her not having the accountability and getting into what to do about it. Also, it's what's required before the accountability. And that is what's the clear expectation responsibility. So if you want to say more about that, this is really important in terms of what y'all do about the problem.

Ivan Konermann 25:44

So let's jump into what it takes, what's required before there's actually an accountability conversation. And For a lot of folks, this comes as a real surprise when they go, wait a minute, can't this hold Joe accountable? Well, my first question is, hold him accountable for what?

Cathy Maday 26:05

So

Ivan Konermann 26:06

this is where a lot of times people will say something like, hey, get me that contract over as soon as possible. And the other person hears as soon as possible. And who the heck knows what timeline they're thinking? The key is as

Cathy Maday 26:17

soon as possible to me.

Ivan Konermann 26:19

Yeah.

Cathy Maday 26:20

Might mean Friday. It's, what is it, Wednesday today? It might be next Wednesday. It depends on what I see as my priorities, where I put as soon as possible. As soon as possible to you. Yeah.

Ivan Konermann 26:34

It could be something totally different. So we're going to move quickly to that part of it. The key, though, is if you don't have crystal clear expectations around a who, a what, and a when, you don't have something to hold somebody accountable to.

Cathy Maday 26:47

Absolutely.

Ivan Konermann 26:48

So if someone says, get that to me soon or get that to me ASAP or whatever else it is, that doesn't show up on a watch. It doesn't show up on a calendar to say, oh, this thing was due at noon on Tuesday. It's now past that. I can go have accountability conversation with them.

Cathy Maday 27:07

Also, here's what's happening. Anytime that you're communicating in autopilot, people are listening in autopilot. So if you're just in the habit of saying, get that to me ASAP. Whenever you can. Yeah, or whenever you can, that other manager that was your favorite manager. Yeah, or whenever you can. First of all, you're talking on autopilot.

Ivan Konermann 27:30

Yeah.

Cathy Maday 27:31

So the people are listening on autopilot. To me, if I'm... That doesn't even register

Ivan Konermann 27:36

at all. No, it's like a one.

Cathy Maday 27:39

Yeah, versus if you are saying to me, Kathy... be sure to send that to me by Thursday 2 p.m. Eastern. Psychologically, how I process that is entirely different. First of all, I perk up because you don't sound like everyone else. So you're not in autopilot. You're in your performance zone and you're influencing me with your specificity. You're influencing me to come up out of autopilot and be in my performance zone. Or by the way, if I'm in the stress zone, your specificity actually helps me come down into my performance zone.

Ivan Konermann 28:17

Which is a really good point because I've heard a number of leaders over time say my boss gives me something and they don't give me deadlines so I do it immediately and then those same those same people will very often say oh my god I've got so much stuff I'm so stressed out and I'll say well I if you haven't gotten a deadline and you're just assuming that your leader wants as soon as possible, you're making things more hectic on yourself. So the expectation setting is both for managers and for the individuals to do. So if you tell me, hey, Ivan, please do X, it's very easy for me to go, okay, sure, I can have it done by Tuesday. How does that work? I can get that knocked out by Thursday noon. How is that? And if you can say yes or no, up or down, It's very easy to negotiate. Or to say, hey, when do you want it?

Cathy Maday 29:09

Yeah, and there's something important in what Ivan's doing. So I want to make sure you guys all take a note of this. This is really important for you to remember that if you're the leader and you're distributing responsibilities, you're assigning work, it's not your responsibility to set those deadlines. And so keep that in mind that it's important for you to, it's super effective for you to say out loud, hey, if I don't set a deadline, you're expected to propose one or you're expected to set one. That way, what you're building is a leader behavior in the team that we all practice making sure that there's a deadline set. Otherwise, like you said, there's nothing nothing clear to exercise, to hold someone accountable to.

Ivan Konermann 30:05

Yeah. One thing I want to go back, add one word to what you said, because you said it's not your job as a leader. It's not only your job as the leader.

Cathy Maday 30:12

Yeah.

Ivan Konermann 30:12

Yeah. So both parties have the responsibility to figure out timing. Yeah. Love that. So a good who, a what, and a when. The who is usually... Usually clear.

Cathy Maday 30:22

Not in group settings. And here's, yes, go ahead. I'm sure you're going to go there.

Ivan Konermann 30:27

No, just jump on in, Kathy. So the who will usually be clear if there's two people.

Cathy Maday 30:33

It's hardly, let's be honest. Current state, when we start working with leader teams, it's hardly ever clear because what's their autopilot.

Ivan Konermann 30:44

Yeah, the autopilot will be, hey, we need to work.

Cathy Maday 30:48

We should.

Ivan Konermann 30:49

Yeah, we should or we ought to. So that kind of language is a problem. So the we is not clear. So especially if you're in a group, and this is what I encourage folks to do, is name it. Hey, George, Sally, Amy, Bill, you're responsible for X, Y, Z. By this date, each of you has these parts, yada, yada, just real clean. So you want to make sure there's a who, a what, and then, of course, we've just hit on the when pretty hard. The what, this is where a lot of people will – create problems for themselves because they don't define it clearly enough. They know in their head what they want and they don't say out loud what good looks like. The example I like to give, the little silly story is if you were to say to me, hey, we got guests coming over Saturday at two o'clock for a cookout, go out and clean the back the back patio. And I go, okay. And so if I were to go outside and push the chairs in and, uh, and, uh, I don't know, you know, put, put the covers on the grill. Your

Cathy Maday 31:44

favorite, get the leaf blower. Cause you love to get the

Ivan Konermann 31:47

leaf blower. No, no, you're screwing this up. You're screwing this up. Stop. So then you come out and you're like, wait, what the hell? There's like some leaves back in the corner. You didn't put flowers on the table. You didn't put a nice tablecloth on the table. And I'm going,

Cathy Maday 31:58

I'm

Ivan Konermann 31:59

like, geez, I didn't know that's what you wanted the day. What the hell? So, so we have these thought in our head that we don't say them out loud

Cathy Maday 32:06

just yesterday working with a director level big organization I'm not going to give too much detail was so she's so stressed and frustrated because her manager who's at a C in a C level role in this company is telling her go do this she asks a question you figure it out So then she goes and whatever it is, develops a presentation. She was, she figures it out, brings it to him. No, that's not what I want. And, and yet does not provide, even when she's asking questions, she's not providing any useful detail around the clear

Ivan Konermann 32:53

one. So that's, that's a pretty solid dick move right there. Absolutely. Yeah. Fail.

Cathy Maday 32:58

Yeah.

Ivan Konermann 32:58

So, so this is, this is expectation setting is necessary to, before you go into accountability. Because the easiest thing to remember is if you don't have this, you don't have something to hold people accountable to. You don't have a who, you don't have a what, and you don't have a when.

Cathy Maday 33:12

Well, here's an easy way to remember it. If there isn't a clear expectation, like you're saying, if there isn't a clear responsibility, commitment, directive, requirement, all of those, they're synonyms, they're different. If that's not clear, There's nothing to hold someone accountable to.

Ivan Konermann 33:33

Yeah. The easy way I like to think of it is, and I'll use this analogy with someone is, if you were going to pay me to come build a pool at your house or whatever it was you wanted at your house, you wouldn't accept a piece of paper that says, oh yeah, I'll come build a pool at your house. You wouldn't give me...

Cathy Maday 33:51

What's the dollar figure on that?

Ivan Konermann 33:53

Yeah, I don't know. How much

Cathy Maday 33:53

does a pool

Ivan Konermann 33:54

cost? I have no idea. Many dollars. I don't have one.

Cathy Maday 33:57

$30,000 or something.

Ivan Konermann 33:58

Way more than

Cathy Maday 33:59

that.

Ivan Konermann 34:00

So no one would pay me many dollars if that was what the contract said. It's going to be this kind of a size or this kind of features and this kind of a timeframe. It's the same thing that you want day to day. You want that contract, that verbal contract with folks. Yeah.

Cathy Maday 34:16

Yeah. For sure. Cool.

Ivan Konermann 34:17

Okay. So now if... You've been doing that. You've been doing the who, what, the when. You've been getting that contract solid. And now it happens. Tim has failed to deliver X, whatever it is. We'll just call it X to keep it simple. Now what?

Cathy Maday 34:32

Advancing questions are your friend. So we're going to give, yes, we're wrapping this for today. We're going to give you the most simple place for you to start. You're going to state a fact. And then you're going to ask an advancing question. Yeah. So who did you say it was? Tim. Tim. Fucking Tim. Tim. Tim did not provide X to you. Um, Tim, the deadline was today at 2 PM for you to provide X. What happened?

Ivan Konermann 35:10

That's as easy as it is.

Cathy Maday 35:12

Uh, Of course you can play around with the question. Just notice though that the question, you're stating a fact and you're asking a simple question. So if this is the first time Tim has missed something, what happened is an effective question.

Ivan Konermann 35:32

Just know, I'm going to step in real fast. Just know for everyone listening or watching, this is where what we talked about earlier of the excuse factory, that sucker may kick into gear really quickly and you may get

Cathy Maday 35:41

to

Ivan Konermann 35:42

this, that, this, that.

Cathy Maday 35:44

Here's the other thing though. If you start with what happened, you're also offering the benefit of the doubt that something important happened.

Ivan Konermann 35:54

Totally.

Cathy Maday 35:55

And so it's a really, it's an effective place to start for the exchange and for the relationship to And then if the excuse factory starts spitting out excuses, well, be prepared for that. That's going to go in a different direction. Then, of course, you're going to want to ramp up your intensity and how you have that exchange.

Ivan Konermann 36:21

And I want to make sure I say out loud for everyone watching or listening that that observation about the excuse factory kicking up. That doesn't mean that that question is bad in any way, shape or form. It is the most important question to ask. We've both been in situations where a leader missed a session and it seemed like they were blowing it off. They weren't taking it seriously. And there are times where each of us has challenged the other to say, hold on, what do you actually know? And when we checked ourselves and said, Yeah, all I know is they weren't on this call. I don't know any other details. And then later on, it turns out it was a pretty legitimate thing. There was a family medical emergency. There was some other thing that happened. So it made a bunch of sense that they didn't show up for that particular call. So that's a great place to start, which I like to think of is when I ask that question, I want to be ready for what kinds of answers might I get so that I can be prepared to go to the next step based off of those answers. So it's the excuse factory. How do I want to, what do I want to respond to that? What am

Cathy Maday 37:21

I

Ivan Konermann 37:21

going to be prepared to do or say? If it's something legitimate, okay, great. Then what do I, how do I want to respond to that? So just being nimble and keeping multiple options open in front of you all at the same time is a really key part of this.

Cathy Maday 37:35

Yeah. So, so let's take it one step further.

Ivan Konermann 37:38

Okay.

Cathy Maday 37:39

Let's say 10. Starts offering some excuses, Tim.

Ivan Konermann 37:43

Tim. Starts offering

Cathy Maday 37:45

some

Ivan Konermann 37:45

excuses. Yeah, so Tim's fired up the excuse factory and it's the dog eating my homework and I stubbed my big toe and whatever else. This is where Tim's overall patterns become really important. If Tim normally is getting things done on time and this is a real aberration for Tim, this is where there are lots of options. I could just say...

Cathy Maday 38:06

Sure, sure. Tim, hey, totally get it. That stuff comes up. Yeah. In case I haven't made it clear before, anytime you're going to miss a commitment or miss a deadline, you're expected to communicate that and then renegotiate and make another commitment for when you will get it accomplished.

Ivan Konermann 38:28

Yeah. Now,

Cathy Maday 38:30

so a lot of times leaders are thinking that they're not saying it out loud. So that's the key piece for all of you is to make a note so that you're saying out loud some of these implicit expectations. Making them explicit is a really key component as you're exercising healthy accountability.

Ivan Konermann 38:54

Yeah. So that's one end. Tim normally really solid, just blew this deadline. That's how you're gonna respond. Now let's go to a situation where this isn't that surprising. Tim is a routine and a repeat offender around getting things done on

Cathy Maday 39:09

time. Okay, so if Tim is a routine offender, then That question, so Tim, X was due at this time, what happened? That's not effective. So I want to make sure you all are taking note of it, is that if there's a repeated issue with Tim's performance, then the what happened question is too low intensity, not effective. I would immediately start at a higher level of intensity with that question.

Ivan Konermann 39:44

Now, if this is the first time for X, I would still go though with the, hey, what happened? Because even if Tim has screwed other stuff up and there is that pattern, there could be something still real around this particular, he might have a legitimate thing around this situation. So just know that there's ways this can play out.

Cathy Maday 40:00

Of course. What I'm saying though is, because this is part of the problem in how leaders are not exercising accountability, is that, or not exercising it in a healthy way or an effective way, is they are too low intensity right out of the gate. If Tim is repeatedly showing, again, issues in his performance, of course this is Generally speaking, he's coming late to team sessions. He's missing deadlines, whatever. There's some repeated behavior where he's not meeting expectation. Then starting too low with what happened is actually going to work against you. It's going to slow things down. So bumping it up. And that's, again, bring in facts first. So state the fact first. Tim, this is the third time. whatever's accurate tim this is the third time so what exactly is going on that you are continuing to to um blow your commitments

Ivan Konermann 41:06

yeah good a lot of times this is where as we're wrapping when you get to this point it can feel really good when tim goes ah yeah kathy um i'm i'm gonna make sure i stay on track with this and you'll get these very vague, very fluffy

Cathy Maday 41:26

rainbow.

Ivan Konermann 41:27

Yeah. Rainbows and unicorns are shooting across the sky. And it's, it's not specific. So this is where if someone's, if a Tim were to say to me, Oh yeah, I've been, I'll make sure I get that done on time. I'm going to stay in what we call stay in the ring with him, which is to me, which means not just take that at face value. I'm going to ask at least one more question, which is okay. How are you going to make sure you do that? And so now I'm, I'm showing them that I care enough about them. I care enough about them. about Tim and I care about Tim's work to keep that conversation going one more step to make sure that he's clear for himself on what he's going to do differently so this doesn't happen

Cathy Maday 42:03

a

Ivan Konermann 42:03

fourth time.

Cathy Maday 42:04

Yeah, because that's another problem. Even if leaders take that first step and then Tim's like, oh, yeah. It feels like, like you said, it feels good. Oh, he gets it. Except he's saying he gets it. And then we call that a non-answer. It's really a non-answer unless they've taken that next step. So just make sure that you're really cognizant of yourself in the equation as you're having those exchanges. Don't accept the non-answers. Then you're really not... effectively exercising healthy accountability. You're continuing to let people off the hook. And keep in mind also, whatever your tendencies are now, your behavior tendencies, the people around you are learning from you. So if you're avoiding accountability, your team members may start to avoid accountability. So you're... you're in the spotlight and you're walking around like you've got a megaphone. People around you are looking to you and they're paying attention. And they're learning from you. So this is exciting if you start to put this into practice. You better start putting this into practice. It's exciting, though, if you put this into practice, what you really can create within your team, raising your performance. And at the same time, and this is what's really, really fun, is people start to, as leaders start to exercise this, their relationships actually get stronger. I

Ivan Konermann 43:47

totally see that.

Cathy Maday 43:48

Yeah. And you know how many are afraid. to hold someone accountable because they don't want to, like you said, they don't want to be an asshole, they don't want to be a jerk, they don't want to hurt the relationship. What we find over and over and over again is that the relationships actually get stronger, they get better.

Ivan Konermann 44:04

Yeah. So, we've covered a lot around accountability. We've talked about what people do instead of accountability. We've talked about how or some of the reasons that leaders have for avoiding accountability. The

Cathy Maday 44:16

cost, the problems.

Ivan Konermann 44:17

Absolutely. Costs. We've talked about setting expectations as a precursor to having an accountability conversation. And then we've talked about how to do some very simple and fundamental accountability pieces. This is where you all get to start to practice. So we've given a lot here today that you all can take notes on and begin to implement. Here's one thing that's going to be really important to keep in mind. It's not going to feel comfortable. And the more you do it, the more comfortable it will get. Not it's going to be comfortable. It's just going to feel less uncomfortable over time. So keep practicing. And also know that even if you do this well, some people are going to respond really well. Some people, like a Tim or a that guy, are not going to respond well because they don't like being held accountable. They don't want to have... Black and white, hard fences. They're not used to it.

Cathy Maday 45:06

It's unfamiliar.

Ivan Konermann 45:07

Yeah, great point.

Cathy Maday 45:08

And that's where, love that you're saying this, that you're going to feel uncomfortable. That's why we're calling it accountability ain't for amateurs. No. And it's the stay in the ring, stay consistent. And you're going to see a lot of your, most of your team members are going to step up.

Ivan Konermann 45:27

Yeah. Yeah, because what also will happen as you do this is people begin to learn very quickly what it's like to work with you because we're always teaching people how to work with us. I had a boss years and years ago who people knew good and damn well you did not want to blow a deadline with that guy because he would have not a high volume, just it would be a mid to high intensity conversation around, well, exactly what happened that you missed this deadline. And man, it was not a comfortable place to be in it. So people realize, man, I'm going to get it done for that guy. I don't care what it frigging takes. So it's just a great thing to know that this builds on itself and actually gets easier very quickly.

Cathy Maday 46:06

Yeah.

Ivan Konermann 46:07

Awesome. All right. Go out there and practice, kick ass. Make sure you like and subscribe to this if you're on whatever your favorite venue is for watching this or listening to this. And we will have more to come soon.

Cathy Maday 46:20

Yeah. Keep leading without the BS.

Ivan Konermann 46:22

Yep. Get on it.

Cathy Maday 46:23

See

Ivan Konermann 46:23

you soon. Take care.