Progress, Not Perfection: How Real Leaders Practice Accountability Every Day

In this episode of Leading Without the BS, Ivan Konermann and Wingspan’s newest Advisor, Mike Johnson, go head-to-head in what we’re calling “Bald vs. Balder.” With a combined 40+ years of leadership experience (and zero hair between them), they unpack how accountability is so often misunderstood — and how leaders will move from fuzzy expectations to confident performance with the Wingspan Performance System™.

What You’ll Learn:

• How to stop assumptions from killing accountability.
• How “bubble wrap” language stalls teams — and what to say instead.
• How to use 30-second accountability conversations.
• What type of progress beats perfection — reps build confidence.

Whether you’re leading a team meeting, running operations, or scaling leadership influence, this conversation proves that bald heads bring bold insights.

4 Takeaways:

1. Explore Wingspan’s Leader Team Coaching & Advising — the proven path for leaders ready to multiply performance across their teams. Schedule a Clarity Call with one of our expert Advisors right now!
2. Subscribe to the Wingspan Newsletter — get practical leadership insights, podcast episode deep-dives, client spotlights, and weekly tools delivered straight to your inbox.
3. Check out our YouTube Channel for unfiltered clips on behavioral performance and leadership actions that actually work.
4. 📲 Text us for leadership performance advice — real answers for real leaders.

💥 Subscribe to Leading Without The BS now and share this episode with other leaders who want to stop spinning their wheels and start leading with intentional energy. Someone invested in you — now pass it forward.

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Transcript

Ivan Konermann 0:00

When you're not having accountability conversations and those behaviors just drag on and the impacts to the business are wide.

Cathy Maday 0:08

Welcome to Leading Without the BS. Unfiltered, unapologetic, unstoppable performance. Today we're talking about...

Ivan Konermann 0:14

Hey, I'm Ivan. I'm the Vice President of Wingspan Performance. And I'm Mike Johnson. I'm the newest Wingspan Advisor and the newest bald guy on the team. We're here to bring you Leading Without the BS podcast, our newest episode. And again, it's the hairline. so if you're one of us we we we are happy for you you're happy for you yeah all right all right so for everyone listening mike is a is a recent addition and he was in the shoes that many of you are in right now and he was there not that long ago so what's awesome is that he is a prime example the kind of leader that we work with and that we continue to work with so with uh with mike and i taking over the ball guy version of the podcast for today what we get to do is is dive a bit into Mike's story, understand where he saw challenges that he sees today. Like, oh man, I could have used this tool. I could have used that tool. And the intent behind this is that everyone out there who's listening to this gets to go, oh my gosh, I'm in the same position.

Mike Johnson 1:15

Yeah, I'm excited to share my experience, introduce myself to the Wingspan clients, and share all the learnings that I've had so far.

Ivan Konermann 1:25

Awesome. Awesome. So let's start with something kind of simple. For folks who don't know you, what kind of roles and experiences have you had? So my experiences are mainly in the manufacturing operations leadership side. So over 23 years of manufacturing experience in a multitude of different operations leadership roles from frontline supervisor all the way to plant manager. Nice. And across mostly the food industry, but I've had some exposure into the plastics as well. Nice. Keep those things separate. That's good. So given this Lengthy experience you've got in all these different roles and then in different kinds of organizations as well. What kinds of leadership challenges have you seen pop up that either were incredibly impactful for the business that had a big cost or perhaps they weren't as big, they just showed up again and again and again in a cumulative effect, they did have a big cost?

Mike Johnson 2:26

Unclear expectations is one that repeatedly, regardless of the organization, regardless of the plan, regardless of the team, unclear expectations, the team understanding what am I accountable for, how does that deliver results to the business, and how to clarify those things when they're not clear.

Ivan Konermann 2:50

What did that, now that you've been here and you've seen what that looks like, what do you recognize were some of the things that were missing most often? For me,

Mike Johnson 3:01

it's speaking it out loud. Behavioral expectations. You know, high performers. I would consider myself a high performer. Or I consider myself a high performer. Me too. I vote for that. You... expect the same out of other people without speaking it out loud. So often times I've found, Looking back, now that I've worked with Wingspan and gotten more familiar with the tools, that I was making a lot of assumptions around behavioral expectations that people should know. And using that language, people should know. I've never said that. I don't know what you're talking about. I've never done that. Why isn't so-and-so doing it the way that I do it? Looking back, I did not outline those behavioral expectations clearly. speaking them out loud and then removing that bubble wrap language of should.

Ivan Konermann 4:04

When you recognize some of those behavioral expectations that for you is probably just crazy obvious and other people apparently not so much, what were one or two that came to mind?

Mike Johnson 4:16

Looking for solutions on your own.

Unknown 4:23

Hmm.

Mike Johnson 4:24

As a leader in an organization, it's more than just having all of the answers. It's understanding how do I go find the answers, other solutions, who are the resources that I can rely upon. How do I build a team that can collectively come to the right decision? Yeah. So for those individuals wanting to go to their leader and saying, do you have the answer for me? Or becoming frustrated if they don't have the answer and somebody isn't readily available to just say, here's the right answer. The right answer.

Ivan Konermann 5:07

That's cool. When you think about that, what do you realize were some of the costs that were popping up for you, the team, the business? Frustration within the team.

Mike Johnson 5:20

Frustration building when people are meeting expectations, perceived expectations. When they're not clearly stated, there's... it's hard to have those accountability conversations. And when you're not having accountability conversations and those behaviors just drag on and the impacts to the business are wide, it slows down decision making. You're making decisions in a silo, not coming up with new ideas. So there's many issues that arise from that.

Ivan Konermann 6:02

Yeah, I'll tell all my One of the costs I realized I used to pay just every dang day was people would come to me and I would immediately stop my work so that I could help them with their work. And then I was going way further than just helping them with their work. I was doing a disproportionate amount in some cases. And then I was pissed off and frustrated because I wasn't having time to do my stuff. And also I got a bit resentful with some team members. And I could have... use that in a better, healthier way to set expectations or set some clearer boundaries. So I was wondering how much of that you had seen for yourself as well. Absolutely. And it's interesting. Early in my career, I can recall having conversations around technical performance and specifically telling people that I don't need you to go grab your cape and solve this technical issue. I need you to train this other individual, those technical skills, so that we can build that skill set across our team. Not utilizing that for the behavioral side. And for myself, the way that I elevated my career oftentimes and moved up into new roles was because I did have the answers. So it can be challenging to put that ego aside and realize that it's not for the better of the team or the business or for myself. to have all the answers. It's to build that capability in others.

Mike Johnson 7:33

Yeah, it's so cool you say that. I had a conversation with a leader this morning who is over-indexing towards having the technical answer. And when I challenged him about how he's building the team, how he's building depth for not just his direct reports really for the business to function. It was almost like he got hit in the head with something on the other end of the line because it was like, oh my God, I didn't think of it that way. And it's so neat to see how how much of an impact that has for a business and how much people realize, oh my gosh, I can shift from being the person with the right answer to the person who helps other people come up with a good answer. And that's just such a, it's such a sustainable shift when people go there. I'm sure you saw some of that. How did you see your team or the business performing differently as people began to grab that concept and run with it of creating their own answers? For me, as I moved up, up and advanced my career into higher level positions in the organization, realizing that only a small portion of my role was tactical. Focusing on the strategic side of the business, the only way I had the time to do those things in my role and support the business in the right way was to build that skill set within my team so that they could make those decisions. It's an intentional shift for myself. It's challenging to do that that in the environment, especially fast-paced manufacturing. I've got to have this answer. Everything seems to be a fire, and everybody wants to put a solution in place very quickly. Taking the time to engage others, you more often come to a better solution. And then you're building that skill set within your team to make that decision without you.

Ivan Konermann 9:34

Yeah, it's funny. I had a different conversation this morning or a conversation with a different leader this morning also who said, I get into these problem solving discussions and I'm really good at that. And I said, yeah, I bet you are because you got a ton of experience and you know the site and you know the team members and you know the products and all this stuff. And that's not your job anymore. And so it was the analogy I use is you're not Luke Skywalker running off to fight Darth Vader. You're actually Yoda helping Luke Skywalker Luke Skywalker get ready to go off and do this thing and so I asked I remember one conversation I asked the leader I said are you more of a Harry Potter or more of a Star Wars guy and he goes Star Trek and I was like shit I don't have a good I don't have a good analogy so if you're a Star Trek listener please shoot me an email tell me what a good analogy is for Yoda versus Luke Skywalker in the Star Trek universe I will greatly appreciate that so you've been using these tools for a while where are you finding it even today, challenging to use specific wingspan duels?

Mike Johnson 10:41

Activating language, being very intentional of the words that are coming out of my mouth. I've considered myself a strong communicator, have gotten feedback in the past about being a strong communicator, and as I've learned more about the Wingspan tools and those foundational tools of activating language and advancing questions, realizing how much bubble wrap and language that I was using added no value to the conversation. made the communication fuzzy. It undermined the capabilities of other people. Wow. You know, thinking back that... I can communicate clearly and expect others to receive that message rather than me trying to soften the blow because maybe some assumptions I'm making about their capabilities as well.

Ivan Konermann 11:50

Yeah. It's funny you said that. I was told I was a good communicator. The number of leaders we work with who say, I've always thought of myself as a good communicator. And then I learned about bubble wrap and I learned about illegal language and And holy cow, I have got that all over the darn place. In

Mike Johnson 12:10

my previous role, I'd fire off hundreds of emails a day, no exaggeration. Oh, I bet. Hundreds of emails a day without thinking. As I was joining the Wingspan team, it would take me 10, 15 minutes to write one email. I'd be very specific with the language and the words that I was choosing. And... It's not just an exercise of check the box where I was rating myself of, oh, this is an illegal word, realizing I was not being clear with my communication and using other more descriptive language. simplified the email, shortened the email, and clarified my message.

Ivan Konermann 12:57

Yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome. I've realized as I continue to practice these things myself, A, I'm doing the same thing. I'm rereading almost every single email I write. It's pretty rare that I'll write one and not reread it. What I also find is now I'm shifting more and more to, what can I take out? Because I'm usually decent at, or what What can I compact down? So if I said this in 10 words, dang, how could I shrink that down to four words and still have it be meaningful and impactful? When you recognize this, what do you see as some of the broader patterns that are happening as you're using this language?

Mike Johnson 13:44

I can get... better information with shorter conversations. What I mean by that is what I'm referencing is specifically advancing questions. Rather than a yes-no question where I'm going to get a yes-no answer, taking the time to... articulate what information I am seeking before asking the question and asking it in an open-ended way for the receiver to provide the information that I'm looking for.

Ivan Konermann 14:28

What are you noticing about even with the taking more time to write the email and then rereading it and perhaps multiple times and continuing to edit, refine it. When you think about how much time that takes and then you get that good answer, what are you seeing as patterns in terms of like, oh, this is taking more time than it used to take before? Yeah. Oh, no,

Mike Johnson 14:53

definitely less time. So overall, it's more efficient because I may have been quick to ask a question in the past or quick to shoot off that email. And I often got a follow-up email with an additional question or a follow-up question that we had to go back and forth. And especially with many of us working remote or corresponding via email, you're waiting for that response. And it can take an awful long time just to get a point across or get a question answered. If those few seconds, really when it comes down to it, it's a few seconds, maybe a few minutes, to where you're taking the time to really be intentional, what you're asking, what you're saying, simplifies the process overall and shortens the time overall. Yeah,

Ivan Konermann 15:53

that's cool. That's cool. So for everyone who's listening, as you're working to put more thoughtful language into your emails, just know that Mike's in the same boat hell I've been in the same boat of it takes more time initially and also your experience of that time comes back pretty quickly the other thing I'm finding is now when I go back and edit if I think of gosh a really really crystal clear email will be at 100% I'm writing them closer to 80 or 85% out of the gate and so then with a little bit of tweaking I'm getting to that 95% good enough for that particular purpose and then I can send it out. So just know that it will come faster and faster with the more reps that you do. Yeah, definitely. The

Mike Johnson 16:43

more reps is helpful for all of this. The good thing and the good thing about it is the opportunities for reps are endless. When you're intentional about those conversations, it's even around the office. you know, quick conversation, short interactions. Every time you're engaging with another person is a time for a rep.

Ivan Konermann 17:08

Yeah. Yeah. It's awesome you think of it that way because you're going to help yourself progress that much faster. As you have been putting these tools into practice and getting onboarded here, what surprised you the most?

Mike Johnson 17:24

Hmm. How often I was in autopilot. or shooting from autopilot to stress where even in a stressful situation I was acting in autopilot for myself having a lot of experience in those situations so autopilot language or stepping in and making decisions for people realizing now being very intentional about My physical, mental, and emotional state. Where am I? And where am I seeking the person that I'm engaging with? How am I influencing where they are in their performance zone as well? It's an ego shift for me. Learning... There's a lot that I learned over the course of my career in manufacturing. There were not many times where I felt completely uncomfortable. And even learning something new, a new piece of equipment or a new process, that's part of manufacturing. This was an ego shift for me to... challenge myself to learn to speak differently and not trying to do it, actively doing it and giving myself acknowledgement for the progress that I am making.

Ivan Konermann 19:02

Yeah. It's interesting that you say that because I can relate to years ago when I first came on the Wingspan and wow, yeah, it was... It was tough. And I found every single day, I was like, I am freaking exhausted. And it was crazy how much effort it takes to really slow down think more intentionally, think more deliberately. So for folks out there, again, who are listening to this and going, wait a minute, I'm having a hard time with this. You're totally normal. That's a very common experience because you're literally, and you use great language about this, you're shifting out of autopilot and getting into a spot that is more thoughtful, more clear, more deliberate. And that just takes more mental work.

Mike Johnson 19:53

Yeah. Recently, I completed several client success interviews so talking to clients that have worked with Wingspan and they're sharing what what what have I learned from working with Wingspan what are the advantages that I've had since working with Wingspan that same thing comes up time and time again it was very challenging yeah and the acknowledgement that it was also very valuable and delivered results within my team, within my business, making that intentional shift.

Ivan Konermann 20:28

So for you, if you could get into a time machine and go back, if you could grab two things and take those back with you, what would you want to go back and have known earlier? Asking more questions.

Mike Johnson 20:48

And letting others speak. Not always being the person that has to have those answers. Not being the person that, you know, showing my value through the information that I know. Asking questions. And then leaving in silence. Letting others answer. And I would also say... more accountability conversations. And what I mean by that is... It's not a formal process that you have to plan and worry and get on the calendar and think about. You can have accountability conversations in 30 seconds when the expectations are clear.

Ivan Konermann 21:40

Yeah. That's a really good point. I will oftentimes when I'm working with teams and we're getting to the feedback part in particular, I'll say to them, I give feedback. especially I give acknowledgement every single day, multiple times a day, and it's just that practice of when you have it dialed in and you're really deliberate with it, to your point, I can do that in one sentence in an email with folks, and people are like, oh my gosh, you can do that in one sentence? I'm like, you can when you practice at it. It's that getting those reps in like you talked about earlier.

Mike Johnson 22:14

And then realizing as you're going through this change, as I'm going through this change, there are times where you're not at 100%. That's just human nature. I'm sure in this conversation I've used some illegal words or bubble wrap. And I'm working to eliminate those. And when I refer back to manufacturing, we measure at OEE or line performance, you can have a successful day without hitting 100%. And that's how I've framed it for myself, that I'm making progress. I'm intentional about my practice and how I choose my words. And I'm still going to have situations where I could have chosen different

Ivan Konermann 23:07

Yeah. That's a really key point I want to highlight for everyone is this concept of going for better, not perfect. There are so many leaders who, and hell, I did this myself, will get really frustrated when it's not perfect, especially with their personal communications, their behaviors, their mindset. And it's so easy to get hard on ourselves and then be like, well, if it's not perfect, it's crap. I'm going to throw it away. It's like, no, no, no. As long as it's... As long as it's better than what you brought to the table yesterday. Because it's so, it requires so much time. And this is how it comes so often when people say, well, how long do you normally work with teams? And we'll say minimum of 12 months. And they're like, holy cow, that's a long time. How long would it take you to really rethink about how you communicate, how you ask questions, how you hold people accountable? And then when they start to think about it, they go, oh, yeah, I guess that could take a little while. It's like, yeah, it sure does. It's a lot of work. Yeah.

Mike Johnson 24:07

Yeah, for me, as I first joined the Wingspan team, the first few days and really acclimating myself into WPA and our practice guides and the core tools, it was overwhelming to some degree for myself to present not only to learn it as a leader and be capable to advise others on it. on our systems. Um, and in the short amount of time realized with intentional focus and using every opportunity to get those reps in, uh, you, you will get better. It does improve. Yeah. Uh, as you, as we're coming in and starting to land this plane, as you look forward and, uh, think about your future here and working with teams and with individuals. What excites you the most? I'm excited to work with leaders like myself, to share the experiences that I've had, the pitfalls that I've had, And show them that the tools that we have within the Wingspan system are the tools that will help them from going down those same paths, those same pitfalls. Building a relationship with people and... helping them through their specific situations, not just giving them a tool and throwing them out there to the wolves. You know, equipping them with the tools, supporting them, and then sharing or seeing the results that they're driving within their teams. They're the ones that are leading their teams. They're the ones that are leading their business. We're here to support and equip them. Yeah. And I'm excited to work with the leaders that, you know, we're... In my shoes.

Ivan Konermann 26:16

Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. That is really cool. And what I'm excited for you is as you keep going, you're going to build those relationships. You're going to have those conversations where people come in all jacked up because they're like, man, I put this into practice and holy cow, we had a whole different conversation. I will tell you, I get all kinds of fired up when I'm in a session with teams or with individuals and they're sharing this success story. and they are so freaking happy because they've broken through on something that has been just eaten their lunch for a long time where they finally got resolution on this and moved the ball forward. So it is fantastic when that happens. I'm excited. Good, good. So today we've covered, for everyone who's listening, a couple of key things. One was you kept talking about practice. So for folks who are listening, just remember that that concept of practice getting out there and deliberately putting these things into practice again and again and again is so critical because those, and I love the way you described it, those at-bats, I describe it the same way. That is how we're all going to get better is when we step up to the plate, if you will, and we're really thoughtful about, okay, what am I swinging at and what do I want to do with this? So that's the first piece is at-bats. Second thing that you hit on that's so key, and I've talked about it a little bit too, is going for progress, not perfection, and continuing to just get better, just a little bit better than you were the day before. That way you can take this unrealistic pressure off of us to be perfect because it's just a bridge too far most of the time. And the reps,

Mike Johnson 27:57

to go back to that, the internal reps,

Ivan Konermann 28:01

the

Mike Johnson 28:02

internal dialogue that I have with myself, I'm getting more reps in current state in that way. to intentionally choose the language that I'm speaking externally to others, I'm getting many more reps in their internal dialogue. That's awesome.

Ivan Konermann 28:24

That is awesome. You can be far more influential by really thinking about how you're working with yourself. You've walked many miles in these leaders' shoes. We all bring that different experience to the table. Great chance for everyone out there to get to learn about Mike and just know that keep working on these things and you'll be leading without the BS.