Behavioral Performance: How Leaders Turn Skills into Results

Most leaders focus on fixing processes — and the real problems aren’t technical. They’re behavioral.

In this episode, Cathy Maday, Founder, Owner & Advisor of Wingspan Performance® , and Ivan Konermann, VP & also an Advisor, pull back the curtain on the system that transforms high-stakes leaders worldwide. From construction sites to C-suites, they reveal how communication, mindset, and behavior drive every result that matters — at work and at home.

They dig into what happens when “autopilot” takes over, how emotions hold critical data for performance, and why great leaders don’t manage behavior — they practice it.

You’ll Hear:

• How Wingspan first defined Behavioral Performance and built it “boots-on-the-ground.”
• Why high-achievers fail when they rely too much on technical skill.
• What emotions can tell you about your blind spots.
• The three elements every leader must align: mindset, communication, and behavior.
• A story of one team that cut a multi-day problem into a 15-minute breakthrough.
• Why people are hired for skill — and fired for behavior.

Listen if you’re ready to:
✔️ Replace stress and autopilot with real influence.
✔️ Translate frustration into clarity and control.
✔️ Lead teams that perform better — because they behave better.

🎧 Listen to Episode 9 of Leading Without the BS: Unfiltered. Unapologetic. Unstoppable Leadership.

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4 Takeaways:

1. Explore Wingspan’s Leader Team Coaching & Advising — the proven path for leaders ready to multiply performance across their teams. Schedule a Clarity Call with one of our expert Advisors right now!
2. Subscribe to the Wingspan Newsletter — get practical leadership insights, podcast episode deep-dives, client spotlights, and weekly tools delivered straight to your inbox.
3. Check out our YouTube Channel for unfiltered clips on behavioral performance and leadership actions that actually work.
4. 📲 Text us for leadership performance advice — real answers for real leaders.

💥 Subscribe to Leading Without The BS now and share this episode with other leaders who want to stop spinning their wheels and start leading with intentional energy. Someone invested in you — now pass it forward.

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Transcript

Cathy Maday 0:00

They were accidentally contributing to these gnarly problems that they were working to solve on these multi-million and multi-billion dollar projects. Welcome to Leading Without the BS. Unfiltered, unapologetic, unstoppable performance.

Ivan Konermann 0:14

Hey, I'm Ivan. I'm the Vice President of Wingspan Performance.

Cathy Maday 0:17

I'm Kathy, founder and president of Wingspan Performance, and one of your leadership performance advisors. Yeah.

Ivan Konermann 0:24

Yeah, so we're glad to have you here on the Leading Without the BS podcast. So we're going to jump in today with a playing to this where the last few conversations have gone with some interviews and where where did how did people get involved with Wingspan? We're going to start with with you with what is behavioral performance and how did how did Wingspan become a thing?

Cathy Maday 0:45

Yes. Yeah, let's I um I'm excited to talk about that today.

Ivan Konermann 0:50

Good, good. So let's start with this. What kinds of problems were you working to solve when you got started?

Cathy Maday 0:57

Good question. I there were there were two main problems I was aiming to solve. A gabillion years ago in my previous life, I worked in technology and so uh systems administration, systems implementation, systems security. And what was happening in working on lots um lots of projects and initiatives, uh I'll give an example. I got to spend a lot of time on a trading desk. So working with traders, portfolio managers. When I was yes, when I was still, I was actually still in uh university, it was my senior year, and I was already working like a full-time, uh, a real job uh with this mutual fund company. And so it was uh coming out of a several different roles, working at the university, working with a lot of the students, a lot of the faculty, I was able to see uh firsthand how people were interacting with each other, uh, a lot of times around technology and where they were creating um you know conflict, counterproductive conflict, uh, or where they were just missing each other like ships in the night. They're just completely missing what one another was saying. And so coming into this role at the mutual fund company and working, as you can imagine, at a trading desk, working under high pressure, uh, and and seeing how these leaders were interacting. What was happening is there's this over reliance and almost like a fixation on the technical side of the work they were doing, when really where they were falling down, where they were creating um disconnects, and it was costing a lot of money, was on what I coined as behavioral performance. It was how they were communicating with each other, how they were not communicating with each other, how they were interacting. Uh, and then, of course, at the heart of that for every single one of us is our mindset during that. That was one of the primary problems. Right after that role, I started to work uh for KPMG, and so I I had the opportunity to work in lots of different kinds of companies, and my peers were all just absolutely brilliant. Uh, they they were my mentors, they took me under their wing because we were we were working in the information systems security uh function, and so I I was adequate on the technical side of what we did. Um, and then thanks thanks to them I got better. And what was happening over a couple years' time is I was getting opportunities that they wanted, that they deserved, and they were getting passed over. And I finally asked one of the partners at the time. I said there was a project coming up, but and a couple couple of the guys really wanted to be on that project, and I was chosen for it. And I I said, Scott's like the dude for this.

Ivan Konermann 4:26

Why are you said that to the manager?

Cathy Maday 4:28

I did.

Ivan Konermann 4:29

Yeah, good for you.

Cathy Maday 4:30

I said, Scott's the dude, why are you asking me to be on this project? And he looked at me like I was absolutely ridiculous, and he said, because you can talk to people.

Ivan Konermann 4:41

Yeah.

Cathy Maday 4:42

And that was a definite aha moment. It was a turning point because I then started to hear and see business leaders were um passing over some of these colleagues of mine who were just absolutely fantastic, uh, except they were not getting the promotions they wanted, they were not getting the opportunities that they wanted, and the decision makers were saying, Oh, well, that's because they're not um, they're they're they're just technical.

Ivan Konermann 5:15

Yeah, yeah. It's funny, it reminds me when I was at a software company myself. Uh, we we focused exclusively on mapping software, and there were folks who were really brilliant. I remember sometimes people would say, Well, they're they're not really customer facing. And I remember at the time it striking me as a little odd. I'm like, well, what the hell does that even mean? They're not customer facing. What I realized was, like you're describing, they had a hard time talking to quote-unquote normal people, so it was very easy for them to fall into what we would call autopilot and talk to folks who understood things already at this pretty darn high level. For them to shift out of that and to think more fully and completely about the conversation where they weren't talking to somebody who was a an expert was just such a big lift that they were like, eh, screw it, not gonna do it. Just you, if you're not, if you're not already running at this speed, don't even talk to me about this stuff because I'm just gonna leave you in the dust.

Cathy Maday 6:11

Sure, yeah, yeah. So it so the the two main problems were there were there were business problems and relationship problems because people were only focused on the the technical side of what they were doing. And then there were also problems with these colleagues that I I just really um really loved and respected, and they were not getting again that advancement or the opportunities that they really wanted for themselves. And so I I was um so determined to create a system where leaders who are more technical and they they want to expand their scope of um leadership impact or their scope of influence without thinking or feeling like they had to become someone else.

Ivan Konermann 7:04

Interesting. So so you're describing where you started off with this in the technical space. Obviously, now we work with businesses all over the world, and that's because this transfers, because this is a really a focus on how people work with people.

Cathy Maday 7:23

Uh definitely. Uh so even in the the very first few years of Wingspan, uh I spent that's when I really started to um uh see it as a system. And so it was a way that I was working with people and I was helping other people work this way with people, and I really started to see it as a system. And so I spent a lot of time working on power plant construction sites where there was this the the leader teams were a combination of um the more academically educated engineers and then also the industrially educated tradesmen uh and craftsmen. And so working in that intersection was was really, really fantastic. Um it got a little challenging at times, uh, you know, the way that they would express some of their frustration and anger out on a construction site. Uh, though when I started to help them to see how they were accidentally creating these disconnects with each other and and this this unproductive or counterproductive conflict with each other, and also how they were they were accidentally contributing to these gnarly problems that they were working to solve on these multi-million and multi-multi-billion dollar projects.

Ivan Konermann 8:51

Wow. So as you started to see these communication gaps and these issues, and you said, ah, I I I want to step in and start to help folks, like what were you basing this on? Like how did you what did you come up with as a as a starting point? How did you choose that?

Cathy Maday 9:09

Yeah, that's it's really I'm glad that you're asking because uh I'm you know people will ask, well, are you a psychologist? Are you are you uh you know, they'll ask questions like that.

Ivan Konermann 9:22

The answer is no, you're the worst psychologist ever.

Cathy Maday 9:24

And the answer is no, absolutely not, because I they also ask, like, are you a therapist? Um, even though lots of leaders uh will, and you know this, they'll they'll joke about it feeling like therapy sometimes because they're focused on their most important things when they meet with us. Though what I based it on was my my everyday interactions with teams, even before that. Um again, even back when I was working full-time with college full-time, I had three jobs on campus for a couple of years. I worked in the computer lab with all the students. Uh, I was a programmer, and then I was back then, it was called a PC technician. So I supported all the staff and faculty on their desktops, and also just to age myself, we were rolling out internet access to all the staff and faculty. So I I got to train all of them, and so I'd have the journalism professors who were like super savvy, they had their Macs, and uh and then I'd have like the history professor, the old grumpy history professor, like, where the hell is this damn power button? Yeah, and what an amazing experience though to learn how to interact and communicate with someone about technology, though translating it into something that actually mattered to them. Yeah, and so and and I'll I still say a lot of time that I'm I'm a translator. And and so having that experience and then going still being in college and coming into these high-pressure work situations, it I based it in the real world. And then going from working on a trading desk uh and and several other organizations out into these um construction sites. Yeah, I built it boots on the ground with working with real leaders, working with seasoned tradesmen, um, you know, brilliant uh just brilliant uh leaders, and they they gave me a chance, they listened to to what I was saying, and and so it was built and including with not only what I was seeing as their progress, what they were seeing and saying was their progress.

Ivan Konermann 11:51

So as you started to work with these leaders, how did you and how did they know that what you were bringing to the table worked?

Cathy Maday 12:02

Yeah, that's because how often do you hear this shit works? Oh, yeah.

Ivan Konermann 12:09

Yeah, pretty much every day.

Cathy Maday 12:10

Yeah, uh that's mostly what happens.

Ivan Konermann 12:12

Hopefully multiple times a day, yes.

Cathy Maday 12:14

I have a gr uh great ex you just prompted me to think about this example where down at um one of our favorite long-standing clients in the area, a piece of equipment went down, and it was uh I I forget exactly how many hundreds of thousands of dollars per hour for that piece of equipment to to go down. Um they're so used to using, so this is an advanced manufacturing company, and they're so used to using the 5Y to get to the root cause. And I brought advancing questions to them, and so um they were starting to ask one another, you know, the team, the team members were starting to ask one another out in the plant uh advancing questions. And one of the operations leaders said, Holy shit, we solved this problem in fifth in 15 minutes.

Ivan Konermann 13:14

Get out.

Cathy Maday 13:15

And several often it takes us a hell of a lot longer than that. Uh, you know, sometimes a couple of days. And I was even I was like, holy shit. Go me. Yeah. Well, and go go them because as you know, it's all about them being willing. Um yeah, we work with entrepreneurs and leaders who act like one because they're willing to take a healthy risk to do something different than what they've been doing for the past whatever 15, 20, 30 years.

Ivan Konermann 13:48

It's interesting because that that technical result of it is both the technical and behavioral result of it usually would take us two to three days to fix this kind of a problem. Yeah. And we just crush this thing in 15 minutes.

Cathy Maday 14:01

Yeah.

Ivan Konermann 14:02

That's well, that's awesome. A lot of the groups I'm working with are saying, like, holy crap, I actually I'm actually getting to know the people in this part of the business were talking about those elephants that nobody wanted to admit were in the room. Like, I don't, I don't see that, I don't want to talk about it. And they they just didn't know how to talk about it. They just said so often, I don't know how to even kick this door open and how to and how to start the conversation. So I'm just not going to. And that that kind of uh a results as well is going to lead to those kinds of things you just talked about in terms of that there being a technical change for the business to create something different.

Cathy Maday 14:39

Yes, because when so many of the teams we're working with, when they're encountering problems, because we do work primarily in technology and manufacturing businesses, they do have many processes, in-depth, thorough processes, and and and they've learned focus on the process, focus on the process. And yes, of course, you're gonna focus on the process. The the problem is they're not looking at each player's personal execution of their part of the process. And so, for example, some like you said, sometimes they don't know how. First of all, we're usually working with experienced leaders, and so they're in autopilot more often and for a very, very good reason. And and so from their successful experience and from their mastery of many things in their their domain, they're an autopilot. Yeah, and so they don't have people around them um challenging them in from a place of care, not from a place of judgment. Uh and so that's of course the the role that we get to play as performance advisors is we get to support them in ways they they're not getting from others. And so challenging them while acknowledging, hey, yes, you've approached it this way for a long time for really, really good reason. And so let's let's kick this other door open and let let's see what's there. Yeah. And and then the other piece too is that you know it's it's not just you because you had asked, how do I, you know, where did it come from and how do I know this works? Uh, it's because leaders, while we love working, I mean I know you do, I do as well, I love working in the intensity of the business environment. What I hear, though, sincerely from even the most um you know, hard-charging, sometimes you know, crunchy, grumpy, crusty old guy. Yeah. But what they say is it's life-changing. And so when they're they're the ones letting us, letting me know um how it works and and when it w works and where it works, and it's not just on the business side, it's on the personal side in their in their lives.

Ivan Konermann 17:15

So besides that piece of it working both at work and at home, because I would imagine that's different, what else are people saying is different about what we're bringing to the table? What else are clients saying is different?

Cathy Maday 17:29

Well, that they are a couple things are uh personally, they when they start to realize, holy crap, like I really freaking am in autopilot a lot, and I don't like the way that feels. So, number one, they're they're recognized in the early stages, they're recognizing they're in autopilot more than they want to be. Uh, they're also in stress zone more than they want to be because we, I mean, that's who we work with: hard chargers, high achievers, running 100 miles an hour, um, tackling complex problems for their business, scaling, uh, all those things that they're tackling. And so they're in stress or they're an autopilot way more often than they realize. And they, it of course that doesn't feel good. It's the it's having ramifications and some of those unwanted outcomes, unwanted impact on the relationships that they care about the most. And so that personally, you know, just as a human being, there they say that they are very quickly, and you know this, very quickly from starting to put the wingspan system and the tools into practice in their behavioral performance, they are um they're just so much less stressed. They they feel more like themselves, they get their mojo back.

Ivan Konermann 18:52

It it's funny as you say that it reminds me and several conversations I've had just this week where at the beginning of the conversation I've asked the leader, hey, how how are you, how are you feeling? How things going today, something to that effect. And it was clear, I don't know, I'm not so sure. And then there was there was definitely some tension. I was like, okay, well let's let's talk about it. What's what's going on that you want to drag onto the table for us to to work on? And as they talked about things, and we started to we started to game it out, like, okay, let's let's let's pull this first piece first. Where could that go? Where are you concerned it could go? Um, where do you really not want it to go? And we start to work through those pieces, they you can see them physically. Like just shoulders hunch and just the shoulders drop, that stress starts to leave, and I'll say, How are you feeling with this? And they're like, Oh my god, I I had no idea how to approach this conversation. Thank you. Now I've got some really solid starting points to get this going so that I can then adjust on the fly after I've gotten it going.

Cathy Maday 19:57

Yeah, it goes back to uh what you you asked me what problems was I was solving with this. And another problem that I was aiming to solve is that most of the time when people are assessing another person's proficiency, uh maybe they're interviewing or they're qualifying them for a position or an opportunity, they they say, Oh, well, you know, Susie's a she's a high performer, but she's you know leaving a trail of dead bodies in her wake. People are fed up, they they actively avoid her and work around her. And so what I saw clearly, it's hard to describe because I just saw it clearly, is that part of the problem is is this focus on what people think is someone's personality, or it's their style, um, like their leadership style, or or it's just the way Susie is. There it's this mindset that the person is static, and that's even the word personality, like I'm not a you know, we don't we we discourage those types of words because they send the message that it's unchangeable, it's just the way it is, or that's just who she is. And that's really what um what I really love, and part of what you were just describing in this example is the wingspan system takes what's been ambiguous and uh uh fluffy and some people think touchy-feely, and we translate that into concrete, uh tangible, practical uh dynamics that and and again behaviors, mindset, communication. That's that's behavioral performance, behaviors, mindset, communication, and we break those down into what's practical, tangible, so that people see they're in full control and they're in charge of developing in areas they want to develop. Um they're they're in charge of that and that we're incredibly dynamic, we're not fixed.

Ivan Konermann 22:30

So on the behavioral performance front, because you start to say this is these are the three pieces: mindset, behavior, communication. Let's let's talk about that a little more so that folks who are listening to this and perhaps haven't caught enough of the other episodes to have piece this together, we'll start to pull the thread on on this further to help them understand beyond the mindset, behavior, communication. So here's what comes to my head is I had and you've had conversations already today with leaders who come in and they're saying, Oh, I'm frustrated because X is doing this. And what I do in those conversations, and I'm confident you do the same or something very similar, start to say, Tell tell me more about that. What does that look like? How often is that happening? What's actually going on? What are they literally doing, or they what are they literally not doing, that's creating a problem. And so getting deeper into it and then backing up from there to say, ah, here's here's the behavioral piece.

Cathy Maday 23:24

Yeah, there's a subtle piece you're you're um I want to point out that it to you is um you might not even realize it. And and this goes back to it's it's not just well, it is part of the wingspan system. When leaders come in and they're frustrated, uh overwhelmed, resentful, maybe like maybe they're saying, I am fucking, I'm flipping my lid, I am, I am, irate. The difference in how we work with them than nearly every other coach or trainer or whoever is that we don't shy away from that. In fact, we also tell them not to manage because so so much of the time that leader it has heard from other people, leave your emotions, you know, at the door before you come in, or um you're not being a good leader if you're angry, or and so that emotion piece up front, which which you you glazed over because it's just so natural for you to you know that that that's accept it. Yeah, and and that piece is really important to to look at because that's also part of mindset communication behaviors, because it's the it's the conversations that a person is having with him or herself, and their emotions have critical information.

Ivan Konermann 25:01

Yeah.

Cathy Maday 25:01

So I I want to wanted to point that piece out.

Ivan Konermann 25:05

Sure, no, that's great. And and what's awesome about that too is that as we're as we're working with leaders on this, one of the things that not only does that emotion inform is where to look, it also usually informs this isn't a singular event. I know for for certain that in previous roles I've had, when I've had that person who I just if I just thought about this person acts, I was like, already I'm feeling better because they consistently did such solid work and they did it in such a productive way, such a sustainable way, such a way that made it easy for other people to work with them and interact with them. And then I had other people who I just thought, ah, shit, because it was so much at the other end of the spectrum, and none of that was a one-off. So, with the behavioral performance piece for everyone listening, part of what's important for everyone to keep in mind is that when you see something happening again and again and again, that's not a technical thing, it's a behavioral thing. Even if you're thinking, oh, well, they're not following the process. Okay, well, if they don't follow the process once, that that's that A, it's still a behavior, it's also just one for one bit of work. If they're not following that process about that thing, there's a good chance they're not following the process on this other thing or this other thing, etc. etc. And that's where it's a behavior because it's now a choice. Oh, they're not choosing to stick with the process, they're choosing to cut it short, they're choosing to uh half ass it or whatever it is in the moment.

Cathy Maday 26:39

Yeah, yes, yes, and and so the the person's emotion, no matter what that emotion is, um the piece personal contribution process, step one, is and the two word and uh two-word check-in, those are both designed to help a an individual to get the critical information from that emotion. Mo again, that's that's different. And and the leaders say that it's different. That um, oh, anger is a good thing. Yeah, anger can be a fantastic thing. Um anger has lots of great information. And so when you like you were saying, let's what's what are they actually doing or not doing? You're using advancing questions to help that person get crystal clear and break it down into uh what's practical and as we say in the system, speak for our frustration rather than from our frustration. Because it's only when we get that clarity that we can exercise healthy control to go and change it.

Ivan Konermann 27:48

Yeah. So as we're landing this plane for folks listening, the you've heard some of where this has come from, but also you've got some good takeaways from this already. Number one, pay attention to your emotions. They're I think of them like that dashboard light on your on your truck that's blinking that tells you you have lower tire pressure, which I just remembered mine actually is. Uh yeah, in most cases, you don't just ignore it. No, or put a smiley face sticker over it. Yeah. That'll be okay. Just I'll just pretend it's not there. Yeah. Um, so that that's a great early warning indicator of hey, something's up and what I'm observing and what's happening in my experiences, and then how to start to identify how much is this a singular thing versus how much is this a pattern, and then to get more granular with those questions we were talking about of what specifically is happening or what specifically is not happening that's working or not working.

Cathy Maday 28:40

Yeah, and well, and e even before that, the uh the fastest way to help people to learn what is behavioral performance is to remind them of a phrase. Most people have heard this. Most people have heard people are hired for skill and fired for behavior. Yeah. And that's uh uh that's part of what we solve. And and it's not just about people getting fired for behavior, it's that on the behavioral side of performance, that's when we're uh creating these disconnects and creating problems for ourselves both at work and at home.

Ivan Konermann 29:13

Yeah, awesome. So as we're wrapping, you've got plenty of tools to use from today, so be sure to share this with someone if uh if you want to share the love, uh leave us some comments and uh start doing this, and you'll be leading without the VS.

Cathy Maday 29:31

Yeah, there's so much more to this, so maybe we'll come back for a part two.

Ivan Konermann 29:35

Love it.

Cathy Maday 29:36

All right.