Increase the Know-Like-Trust…

In this episode of Leading Without the BS, Ivan sits down with Wingspan Performance Advisor Heather Hopkins to explore her journey from mechanical engineering and manufacturing leadership to becoming a coach who helps leaders see—and fill—the gaps they never realized they had.

Heather shares how her pioneering early career shaped her entrepreneurial mindset, how she grew into people leadership without formal leadership training, and how joining Wingspan transformed her understanding of what truly effective leadership requires.

Key Themes

1. The Messages We Send (and Don’t Realize We’re Sending)

The episode opens with a powerful reflection on how leaders unintentionally teach people:

• “You’re not capable.”
• “You’re not bright enough.”
• “I don’t think you can do this.”

These subtle cues — often delivered through tone, delegation, or assumptions — can define someone’s trajectory for years.

2. Heather’s Engineering Origin Story

Heather’s first job was with the construction company building her university. That experience:

• Inspired her to build and create.
• Cemented the belief that she was a “pioneer.”
• Sparked a deeply ingrained entrepreneurial spirit.

3. Becoming a People Leader Without People-Leadership Training

Although she spent most of her career leading people, Heather reflects that:

• Her technical background meant she rarely encountered training that truly addressed what it means to lead humans.
• She led teams without recognizing the blind spots she had.
• Looking back, she can now see her career with far more clarity.

4. The Transformation of Joining Wingspan

Heather shares that Wingspan opened a new door to understanding leadership, including:

• What “real” leadership requires beyond expertise.
• How to see patterns and behaviors she previously missed.
• How her past leadership decisions look different in hindsight.

5. “Oh My Gosh, I Wish I Knew This 10 Years Ago”

Ivan reflects — and Heather agrees — that many leaders only realize after working with Wingspan how much they wish they had known earlier.
Common reactions:

• “I can’t believe what I used to do.”
• “I had no idea what I didn’t know.”
• “I wish I had these tools a decade ago.”

Notable Quotes

• “I was inspired to be a pioneer student… and that pioneer spirit eventually led to an entrepreneurial spirit.” — Heather
• “Most of my career I was fortunate to be a people leader — and yet I rarely took courses that focused on what it really means to lead people.” — Heather
• “When I look backwards, I can’t believe some of the things I did.” — Ivan

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4 Takeaways:

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Transcript

Ivan 0:00

We're teaching people: "oh bless your heart, you're just not capable," or "you're just not bright enough," or "I just don't think you can actually do this." Alright, for today's episode of Leading Without the BS, I have been I've been told to call this the Bald and the Brilliant, and I am not a fan. I have resistance because it sounds like people can't be both. So, for everyone who has not had a chance to meet Heather, this is Heather Hopkins, one of our fantastic performance advisors, who joined us about a year ago. Heather: 00:32 Hello.

Ivan 0:00

Today we're going to get a chance to talk to Heather and understand what your experience has been like as a as a leader in industry. You've done some amazing things, and then to hear your story over the past year of being a Wingspan advisor.

Heather 0:44

All right.

Ivan 0:45

So let's start. Where would you want to begin? What kind of roles have you been in?

Heather 0:51

I have spent most of my career in engineering and manufacturing. I have a background in mechanical engineering, and my very first job was working at my university with the construction company that was actively building it. And so I was deeply inspired with that experience to build, to create, and we had a saying that we were pioneers, and I love this idea of being a pioneer student and being a pioneer spirit, which eventually led to a very entrepreneurial spirit. And so that has been deeply ingrained in me. Most of my career I have been fortunate to be a people leader, and I have loved being a people leader, and yet, with my technical background, I rarely, if ever, took leadership courses that focus on the true elements of being a people leader and what that means. And so coming into Wingspan, it's been really eye-opening to understand leadership at a different level. In fact, I can now look at my career with a lot more clarity. And although I had many, you know, to your question, what titles did I have? I ran project management offices, I was head of Black Belt and Continuous Improvement for multiple manufacturing sites. I ran a plant where I had hundreds of people reporting to me. And yet I can now look back with a lot of clarity and also see so many challenges with my own leadership behavior as well as others, and was not equipped at that time to really have awareness of it. Um, although I had burnout and all the other symptoms that most of us have, and wore it with pride, you know, earning my stripes, so to speak.

Ivan 2:32

You ou talked about not recognizing the te gaps you had for yourself. Man, I had that in spades. In spades. And when I look backwards, I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't believe some of the things I did. And that seems to be the case for a lot of folks, and a lot of leaders tell me, and I'm sure they tell you, oh my gosh, I wish I knew this 10 years ago, I wish I knew this 15, 20 years ago. Yeah. So how challenging was it when you started with Wingspan last year and started using these tools?

Heather 3:02

Can we say extremely challenging and ad at times still challenging as I continue to evolve and challenge myself on different levels? And thanks to you and Cathy continuing to challenge me as wonderful coaches. I have had many behavioral patterns that I was unaware of. You know, in Wingspan, we have autopilot, I had strong autopilot behaviors with how I was communicating and how I was counting on others and at times not counting on others and overcompensating. So learning these tools wasn't just learning them, it was also applying and having that self-awareness of what my own gaps were as a leader and doing that real work real time was and is challenging. And it's it's fantastic to be able to learn in this way.

Ivan 3:53

That's cool. It's always interesting to hear what people pick up on. As I'm sure you've seen working with clients for a year now, how sometimes different and also how often remarkably similar people's experiences are, or what their patterns are, and how we've learned things in one part of our life, and we carry that either to an extreme or we carry it into a space in this other part of our life or this other kind of role or capacity, and that just starts to bite us right in the behind.

Heather 4:23

Yeah.

Ivan 4:23

And it's like, golly, this was working for me so well over here, and now it's not.

Heather 4:27

Yeah.

Ivan 4:28

Yeah.

Heather 4:29

I can resonate or perhaps I'll relate to that in so many ways. Throughout my career, I did not recognize I had a pattern that when my team or my peers were trending towards burnout or were underperforming, I wanted to support and help in so many ways. And I would just jump in and start doing. And for most of my career, I was very valued for that. I was considered a high performer. I was given promotions, I was given financial incentives. And so I created this relationship that doing is value. And that gets you, as most of us know, only so far. And when that breaks down, I find myself completely breaking down as well, hitting that burnout physically, mentally, emotionally. And for most of my clients, even today, by the time that's recognized, it's so far gone. And the awareness is still not fully present. And it's also not known to them or to even those around them how to get out of that. Because most leaders have learned that that is what is required to be a successful leader, is that you keep going, you keep doing, you keep grinding.

Ivan 5:45

Yeah.

Heather 5:46

And it's not sustainable, it's not healthy, high performance, and that's not how you build teams.

Ivan 5:51

So when you kept going, kept grinding, what were some of the things that you recognized were showing up in your language and how you were working with your teammates or even your peers, that now you go, oh man, that was a that was a clear sign. That was a clear sign. I just didn't, I wasn't equipped to recognize it.

Heather 6:11

Using the word "I" often.

Ivan 6:15

Say more about that.

Heather 6:17

Taking on in conversations, autopilot : signing up, I'll do this, I can do that without pausing to seek to understand what was the full scope of work that we were speaking of. Who, how, when would be all the pieces to fill in. I was so driven to achieve, to support, to be a team player that my auto depot was I fill in the blank and would automatically apply myself. It showed up not only in my verbal communications, it would show up in my written communications. Looking back, you know, we support our leaders in saying, how often did you use the word I in your emails? Oh, it's embarrassing. When I look back at my emails, that that's a trigger that stood out, is hard for me to even say now. That lack of consideration for others being at the table.. And it was not out of disrespect, although I can recognize now how that can come off.. In the time and in the moment, my philosophy was I care so much, I want to help so much, I'm going to keep giving and giving and giving, without recognizing how that was contributing negatively by doing so.

Ivan 7:34

Yeah.

Heather 7:35

Both for me and them.

Ivan 7:36

It's funny you say that because I had a very similar pattern, and my headspace was in the oh my gosh, my team members have so much to do, I don't want to ask them to carry one more rock. So I'll carry all those friggin' rocks. And holy crap, that backpack fills up fat with rocks.

Heather 7:56

Yeah.

Ivan 7:56

And I also realized over time, unfortunately, I'm a little bit of a slow learner. So it took me a little while to realize I'm also not helping team members have opportunities to do some of these things to help them grow, to help them advance, to help them get a taste of what it's like to be in this kind of interaction. I work with that team or that individual. And it came like you're saying, it came from a good place of I want to help or I want to I want to protect. And boy, it just really backfired.

Heather 8:24

Yeah, I've experienced that as well. And our clients, it's extremely fulfilling to support our clients who are coming to the table in the same way. And fulfilling comes to me in the sense that here's an individual, a leader, who's coming in with full heart, demonstrating care, wanting to support all these wonderful qualities one would want in a leader that you're reporting to. And supporting them and recognizing and having that self-awareness. One of the biggest lessons I've learned and continue to learn in Wingspan, hearing from you and Cathy is that we're a hundred percent responsible for ourselves and to others. And I can honestly say I did not fully understand that while I had heard it before. Yeah, I did not understand it and what it meant until coming into Wingspan. And learning that difference is something I wish I would have learned early in my career.

Ivan 9:17

So for the folks who have perhaps not heard some of the other episodes and are hearing responsible to, not for, what does that mean, Heather? How would you describe that to them in say 20 seconds?

Heather 9:29

That in Ivan's example, it would be that I am responsible for myself to support the team in getting those rocks across the finish line. It does not mean I'm responsible for carrying everyone's rocks to the finish line.

Ivan 9:43

Yeah, good. Solid. The only thing I would add to that is I'm also not responsible for what other people do.

Heather 9:49

Yeah.

Ivan 9:49

T hat's something to not do.

Heather 9:54

That's a killer too.

Ivan 9:55

Yes, that has bitten me right in the ass many times. I've realized there's times where I felt like I was responsible for somebody getting a promotion or getting this thing done. And it took a lot of that not going well, and also work working with Cathy to realize, holy cow, it's not my job to do their job, it's their job to do their job, and my job to help them to shine a light, provide some guidance as their job though to actually do the work.

Heather 10:26

Yeah. I'm reflecting, Ivan, on conversations we've had with our clients where someone says, how about in a situation where someone doesn't directly report to me? Such a good example. We're peers perhaps in cross-functional departments, and this is required to get done by end of month, except I'm counting on that person to do it and I'm anticipating they won't, and it'll be late. So you know what? I have to do this. I have to get it done because it's still required to get done, and I'm going to be held accountable. And that fine-line difference between exactly you're accountable, not responsible. And so love having those conversations to support our leaders and understanding and equipping them with whoa, how do you navigate that? Most of our clients are coming to the table saying, Well, they don't report to me, so there's not much I can do besides do this work and become responsible. And now I have my job and this piece of job and that piece of job, and before you know it, that's the new standard work that everyone is following along because that's how we've always done it. Johnny does it.

Ivan 11:34

Yeah, I love that. It reminds me that when I started working with Cathy, she he introduced a concept to me of we're continually teaching people how to work with us. And I'd heard a bit of that when I was in the military, and if someone had said to me, hey, how much sense does that make if they said that? I might say, well, kind of let's pull the thread on it. And it is, it's such an amazing connection point to the responsible for versus or responsible to versus responsible for concept. Because we're teaching people, bless your heart, you're just not capable, or you're just not bright enough, or I just don't think you can actually do this. And before long, they're going to start to agree. Yeah, they're going to be like, they're also probably maybe in the headspace of, well, geez, if you're going to take this work off of my plate and I'm getting paid the same, and I get to go home earlier or have less stress, there's no downside for me that they're going to see, even though there is, they don't they don't see that downside.

Heather 12:33

Yeah, absolutely. And it's a vicious cycle that then those leaders start to demonstrate the behaviors of martyr and really feel that sense of now I can't get out of this. This is mine to own. We most often see this, I've experienced this. Most of our clients we see happening with onboarding. So a new employee C comes to onboard, and most of my clients say it's my responsibility to onboard them, it's my responsibility to A, B, C, D. And from moment one, yeah, they're starting that frame of reference of doing for them versus supporting them. And it is still shocking even for myself to look back in my career and recognize that is how I handled it. And I often find myself wondering, what would it have looked like had I allowed myself to level up in this way and had wingspan earlier in my career? Game changing.

Ivan 13:36

So this is one of my favorite questions. If you could play the, I'm going to go back in time and take one tool or one process or thought or concept and go back and give it to yourself, what what would yours be?

Heather 13:55

That people are not fragile, including you. And Cathy and you have both supported me through my own Wingspan coaching to recognize I was falling into the trap of treating others as if they were fragile. I would most often demonstrate this in my language, utilizing "I think," "maybe," "kind of," "should." And I've been often told in my career, you communicate well, you're an eloquent communicator, meaning at times I would be polished, professional sounding, except I would also be overly verbose. And that was coming from this ideal that I was treading very lightly, or as we say, I was bubble wrapping everything that I was saying so that I was not coming off or being perceived as one way or another. And the reality is there were many costs and consequences for that. At times people feeling disrespected, wasting time, driving a lack of clarity. And if I could wave the magic wand and support myself, it would be understanding the difference in communication skills that you can communicate directly and build relationships and drive results by communicating with clarity. And that that is possible to do in a respectful and humanely way, and I did not know how to do that.

Ivan 15:20

It's so great you bring that up because I have had golly, probably two conversations this week where people have said, Well, I can't do that because I'm going to sound like I'm being a dick, I'm going to sound like I'm a know it all, I'm going to sound like fill in the blank, and it's so great to be in those conversations and say to someone, well, hold on. You absolutely can do that.

Heather 15:44

Oh, yeah.

Ivan 15:44

So how would you do it? And then to see the wheels start to turn and and people start to realize, wait, I can I can do that? What's what let me think about this? And then I'm sure you did the same thing I'm doing, and which is starting to challenge them, ask them questions, or what could that look like? What are you really thinking? And and as people start to realize what they can do, yeah, it's awesome to see them get all fired up and be like, holy crap, I can actually do this. I can say something that's really important and say it in a really clear, very factual, very non-bubble-wrapped way so that the other person really understands how big of a deal it is.

Heather 16:20

When I was younger in my career, I was making the assumptions and the story I was telling myself is that I, to be successful, was required to communicate like the leaders I saw around me. And being a younger female in the engineering and construction management, there were not many females around. Most of my leadership team, I'm in a male-dominated industry. There's a certain way that these leaders had spoke in the industry, and anytime I tried that on or would try pieces of it on, it would not be effective.

Ivan 16:58

Probably didn't fit.

Heather 16:59

And it wasn't natural, it wasn't a fit for me. So something I've learned through Wingspan is that I then mistook that for I the story I told myself, I cannot communicate directly. It doesn't suit me, and I would blanket myself, my personality. So I would completely shy away and go in the opposite direction and then overcompensate with so many other ways, including dimming myself by not asking as many questions, perhaps not speaking as much at the table, over volunteering to be the note-taker so that I could have a seat at the table, and did not recognize how that was showing up fully for me. And meeting you and Cathy and working with Wingspan, learning that this style of communication is more about communicating with clarity, and there's ways to do that by being more of yourself and not less, was very powerful for me to learn and seeing my clients learn it as well has been really inspiring and fulfilling to see them shine in their own way, recognizing they're capable of having that 100% ownership and being themselves.

Ivan 18:06

Yeah.

Heather 18:06

And that's really wonderful to see because it shows up outside of work.

Ivan 18:12

It does. It's so great you said that last piece. Before we dive into that, just for a second, I want to go back to the this concept of people saying, Well, I can't be me or I can't sound like me. I have to have this almost like robotic approach to being overly direct and like, man, no way, that's not it. It's both having your voice, also not having the parts of what you're used to doing that actually just slow things down. So the bubble wrap or the language that sounds really fuzzy, because to your point of being clear and being kind, oftentimes people think those two things are at loggerheads in reality. Yeah, hell no, they're not, they're not only not at loggerheads, they mutually exist far more often than people realize. Because if someone's got bad news, they don't want to be, they don't want someone to beat around the bush and wind up this story because people can smell the rat, they know what's coming, and then it becomes this, okay shit, she's setting me up for the fall, and I know there's something else coming here, and I'm bracing and getting ready for it, and I'm afraid. I'm only halfway listening. Whereas if people are just very straight, hey, listen, there's been a pattern that's a problem with X, and it's time that we talk about this. Man, okay, good. Now I know exactly what the deal is, we can jump into this. I find it more refreshing to have those direct conversations instead of someone coming in and circling around it for a while. Like, hey, let's just cut to it. What's going on?

Heather 19:43

Or not at all.

Ivan 19:45

Great point.

Heather 19:47

Not at all. Has been some of the more haunting behavioral patterns that have shown up for my clients and myself in my career when we talk about timely feedback and navigating what some would deem as those difficult conversations that I can stand on as well as most of my clients. Some of the most difficult moments are the yearly performance reviews when someone finds out that they're off track and they had no awareness the entire year that they were because those uncomfortable conversations never took place. They were glossed over. And that is really painful for the leader, for the team member. It's disheartening, it's demotivating, it's disrespectful. And it can last a career when I speak with my clients about those experiences. Some of them reference that happening a decade ago.

Ivan 20:45

Holy cow.

Heather 20:46

And it had a decade-long imprint. Because not having those conversations, not receiving that feedback, then getting it after the fact. Now they may have had to work a couple more years to shift those behaviors because it's still not being driven with clarity exactly what it is that's the gap. And that prevents so much growth from happening. Yeah. Because everyone is now guessing and bobbing and weaving.

Ivan 21:10

It's so awesome you said that. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a team I work with where a senior leader in the business has a direct report who has been displaying this problematic behavior. And I asked him, how are you making this clear to him? And his answer was very fuzzy and a lot of your bobble weave, and, he was not he was not getting there. And I finally said, hold on, what was his rating in his last performance review? And he said, Oh, it was a four on a one-to-five scale. I'm like, holy shit, that's above average. That means they're doing their job plus, yet you're sitting here saying how much they're off track. How much are you aware of the mixed signals that you're sending to this person when you do this, when you're not clear, when you're not consistent, when you don't have those exchanges? And I could tell there he was very much of oh man, I screwed this up. And it's like, okay, now let's figure out what to do. So yeah, that is I'm so glad you said that because that that is really the anti-clarity. It's the way to create so much more confusion and churn because people don't know.

Heather 22:20

No, they don't. And in those moments, you know, when you and I are here speaking about clarity or being direct, when I'm speaking with my clients on either end of that discussion, saying, Where are you going to take this conversation next? Most often they laugh in a joking way and say, I'm not. It'll happen next year. And so far, whatever. And, I reflect on my own career, and yeah, I've been in a similar boat. It can be intimidating when you're not equipped and you don't want to rock the boat. And perhaps there's now this intimidation factor and all sorts of emotions that come into play. Most of us have developed an autopilot of going to. To go back and keep grinding and keep working and keep doing, and then it doesn't get you where you want to go. And so working with leaders to unravel that, to support them on both sides of the table is so fulfilling because that leveling up is transformational, not just for those two. Yeah, all of their peers that work around them will continue to benefit from that transparency, from those honest conversations, from that direct dialogue. So seeing those transformations when we do teams and working with teams together is beneficial because within a few weeks it's being modeled and demonstrated that there is a lightness, the meetings are more effective and efficient. Yep, cameras are coming on, yeah, there's engagement.

Ivan 23:47

Those horror conversations are taking place.

Heather 23:49

Yeah.

Ivan 23:50

I mean, perhaps not to the full degree, at least they're moving in a healthy direction.

Heather 23:55

Yeah, and that inspires me. Because sometimes it is not obvious to all the subtleties that are taking place, but as coaches, we see the signals and understand where it's forecasted, and that's exciting.

Ivan 24:08

That is that's a really good point. Speaking of the coaching side of it, what part of coaching leaders have you found to be more challenging?

Heather 24:21

You're seeing me pause because a lot of my own autopilot behavior surface when coaching and continuing to challenge myself specifically on not falling into the doing for them. So when someone is when my client is coming to me and we're going through a scenario, I can easily step into over-equipping because I care and I want to support and I see where you're going and I see where you're off track, and so I now want to jump in and do. And that has been my strong autopilot behavior in my career. So knowing that, working with you, with Kathy, and our clients, coming to the table and reframing, okay, they're the hero of this story. They are capable, but they are not fragile, and neither am I. So, what level of intensity and support will be required to serve this client and their team in the highest way? And I love coming in with that challenge each and every time. That is a requirement, and it continues to be challenging.

Ivan 25:26

So, because that's such a common thing, you've done this, I've done this, I'm sure people listening or watching have recognized that they've done this. What are a couple of tools, a couple of either questions that you would offer that people can ask themselves to help themselves stay straight or be clear about how they can show up instead?

Heather 25:49

One that I ask myself in learning through Wingspan is what is my intention coming into this moment so that I can intentionally pose my energy. For example, my most recent client, my intention was to support as a powerful partner. Then I ask myself, how will I show up so that I'm not just saying that I am showing it? And in that example, the specific tool to offer folks is I will use advancing questions so that I'm supporting them to have the opportunity and the stage and the airtime to think through and design how they'll get from point A to point B versus me telling them. So challenging myself to ask more questions, support via active listening, and then challenging.

Ivan 26:42

That's good.

Heather 26:43

When they're retreating, perhaps demonstrating hesitancy or demonstrating a lack of conviction at times, or victim villain, staying in the ring with them.

Ivan 26:53

It's asking yourself your intent, identifying also how that conversation could go, where it could unfold, how much that person may decide to stick in there, where if there's escape hatches, which escape patch they may want to pull to get the heck out of that conversation. Um, and then how to how to step in and support them in a way that's both productive and going to be effective for them in the long haul.

Heather 27:21

Yeah. And that continues to be a challenge for most of our leaders real time, because it's a shift in their behavioral pattern and how they're thinking about it. And so that's been really fun to work with our team. And I love leaning on us as advisors to be able to do that conversation mapping and support one another, given all of our experience and the diversity of exposure we've had in different industries. It's one of the more fulfilling aspects of this career is us leaning into each other in that preparation.

Ivan 27:53

That's cool. The analogy I will offer to folks of that not doing for helping them with. And I'm pretty sure you've heard me say this, is don't be Luke Skywalker, be Yoda. Don't go fight Darth Vader yourself, help the other person get ready to go, go handle that tough conversation with Vader. So it's a little silly thing. I'll even send people um a little bit of Yoda action figures to stick on their desks so that so that they can remember to be Yoda. As we're wrapping this up, as you're as you're thinking about the experience over the last year, what what's some final thoughts you would offer to folks who haven't had the opportunity of getting to meet you yet?

Heather 28:34

My favorite Wingspan slogan that you have presented to me has been show up, speak up, and screw up. And that is what I offer to my clients and to everyone else. They are most of the time walking into these conversations a bit uncomfortable. And their desire and intent is I don't want to screw up, I don't want to fail, I don't want to let someone else down. And it's all coming with good intent, and yet the only way to grow is to show up, speak up, and be willing to screw up. And the more that I've leaned into that, it's amazing how often I'm not screwing up, I'm growing and learning, and all these things I thought would be negative that would happen are actually the opposite. It's been really positive. I would offer to folks show up, speak up, and screw up and see what happens. Document what were the wins versus what were the consequences versus what were the consequences you told yourself were going to happen, and really challenge those assumptions, and that is growth and self acceptance. That's pretty powerful.

Ivan 29:37

That we're going to end there with that. Do that, and you'll be leading without the BS.

Heather 29:43

Thank you, Ivan.

Ivan 29:44

You bet. Thank you, Heather.