#1 Syria - The Rise of al-Sharaa

From most-wanted terrorist and enemy No. 1, with a US$10 million bounty on his head, to a respected statesman giving a historic speech at the United Nations General Assembly. Ahmed Hussein al-Sharaa, formerly known as Abu Mohammad al-Julani, has defied the odds and made a name for himself in only 11 days, after setting out from his mini state in Idlib to bring down the dreaded Assad regime, following a bloody 13-year civil war.

In the first-ever Putschcast episode, Arabic scholar and writer, and former Damascus resident Jaron Sutton, alongside our flabbergasted hosts Oliver and Dave, tries to make sense of what just happened and where this mysterious man will take his war-ravaged homeland.

As always, we will also try to answer the key podcast questions: Was it a putsch? Was it a bloody or velvet one? And, most importantly, was it successful?

Check out Putschcast as video on our new Youtube channel. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram and share with your friends and foes. 

Send us an email to putschcast@gmail.com and visit our website.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_08 0:15

Welcome, welcome to the premiere. Uh, first of all, an inaugural podcast here on your new favorite channel, station, subscription option, whatever you do to get information into your ears. You're on Putschcast, and uh if you don't know what that means, um you'll have to find out. But putsch is basically the German word for a coup d'etat. It's uh it's an old word, I think it goes back to Swiss German, correct me if I'm wrong, and uh it became widely used in the 19th century and then entered the English language, I believe, around the 1920s, when there was a few putschers in uh then Weimar, Germany. And that's the title of our podcast. And the great thing about this podcast is I'm not by myself. I've got people here with me in the interrogation room of putschcasts. Those people are today David.

SPEAKER_07 1:11

Hi, Oliver.

SPEAKER_08 1:12

And David Shields is your full name.

SPEAKER_07 1:15

That is my full name.

SPEAKER_08 1:16

And is this your first podcast?

SPEAKER_07 1:17

It is my first podcast. I've done a little bit of amateur radio, but this is the first time in an interrogation room talking about politics.

SPEAKER_08 1:24

Yeah, make sure you put your hands under your legs. Yes, there.

SPEAKER_07 1:28

Sorry, I won't forget to do that.

SPEAKER_08 1:30

For all insiders, that's for the dogs later. Yeah. And also um we've got Jaron Sutton with us. Hey Oliver. Hey guy. Jaron, thank you also for joining us on the first episode of Pudgcast. It is a first for all of us, and uh, I want to say a big thank you to the entire audience for being a bit lenient with us if it's not all perfect, a little bit glitchy. But I think we've got a very, very big um program ahead of us. We will be talking about a man who has written history in just under a year. And this man comes from a country that's been in the news many, many times, and unfortunately, always for the wrong reasons. The country we're talking about is Syria. Now, there are two men to talk about, one of them being the one who's no longer there. No one really knows where he is. Um, there's rumors. We're talking about Bashar al-Assad, of course, the former president of Syria who inherited the title. And um I'm really, really, really glad to have you today, Darren. And I also want to acknowledge that I had a guest invited. Uh, his name is uh Roger. Hopefully he listens to us now. He is Syrian, he lives in Australia and uh has very strong opinions, like many Syrians, about the situation. Of course, we're talking about the new president of Syria. Uh, and Roger told me, who the hell is this guy? Like we followed the news, and even as a Syrian, uh I barely had him on my radar, and within a few months or weeks, even back in December 2024, we were told, hey, here you go, this is your new president. Um, after you know 60 years of Assad rule. And I think there's a lot to explore here. If you are there listening, you've got feedback, let us know. Send us an email, putcast at gmail.com, and we will definitely pick up this topic again. Syria has so much to explore, and we will do that in following episodes. But today we're trying to focus on the last year to really understand how did this regime collapse and who is in charge now and what might the future hold. Today's putcast episode is brought to you by Motorcycle Rental Melbourne, your ticket to an amazing adventure on two wheels across Australia. Motorcycle Rental Melbourne is not just a rental company, it is your gateway for the most spectacular way to explore the fifth continent, to enjoy winding coastal roads and challenging mountain passes, or the never-ending wilderness of the Outback. You can just rent a motorcycle or book a self-guided tour, complete with an itinerary and accommodation. Whether you like adventure bikes, cruises, or anything in between, visit the website motorcyclerentalmelbourne.com.au. And don't forget to mention Putschcast for a 10% discount on your next rental. Book your bike today and find your freedom. Terms and conditions apply. Introductions first. Um, David, just your background. You've got a professional interest in history and politics.

SPEAKER_07 4:30

I have studied politics and history uh in my university days. I'm now a secondary school teacher and have been teaching uh senior history on and off, uh, but also English as well. And I have an abiding interest in um the Middle East and uh have been reading up on Syria uh in preparation for this.

SPEAKER_08 4:47

Yeah, I'll ask you in a second what your background knowledge was, but maybe let's start with Jaron. Um Jaron, you've got more insights than the two of us together. What is your background?

SPEAKER_06 4:57

Yeah, so I think my my interest in Syria comes from um a year that I spent living there uh before the you know what what people referred to as the Arab Spring in 2009-2010. I I went to Syria to study classical Arabic at the University of Damascus, spent a year there and and left uh shortly before, you know, the the Syrian revolution began. So that's the sort of um interest that I've taken in the country since then, and of course, um with recent events yeah, taken quite a close interest in in what's happened. But um, you know, since my time in Syria I've lived lived in Egypt as well, where I studied Arabic as well on a scholarship and worked in Australia and in the uh higher education sector.

SPEAKER_08 5:37

Yeah, and you never really let go, do you after that experience? You probably kept following the events on the ground and still in touch with some people as well?

SPEAKER_06 5:45

Yeah, I've got lots of Syrian friends, and especially early days in the in the revolution. Um, you know, I took took quite a close interest in it, and everyone was expecting, you know, that maybe the regime would fall and then it just would never fall and it never felt. And then I think the world kind of moved on a little bit. Certainly the media did.

SPEAKER_08 6:01

David, just to just let's start with you. We're trying to make this a bit of a putcast tradition. Um, what uh what did you know about the conflict before this topic came up?

SPEAKER_07 6:10

Uh as a follower of international news, I I had an understanding of um the Arab Spring uh and the knock on effects of that across the Middle East. Um, also an understanding of uh the challenge that was posed to the Assad regime and the res the response uh after the like the violent spasms of the first few years, it seemed that the Western media has taken their eye off. So it was a massive surprise, I think, um, just as a casual observer, um, to see this unravel so quickly. Because um, I suppose I expected that the uh the foreign powers, again that you alluded to, would step in and um sandbag uh their their proxy in the Middle East, and it didn't happen. So it's been it's gonna be interesting to talk about it.

SPEAKER_08 7:00

You just mentioned the word knock-on effect, but the knockoff effect is that regimes changed almost in every country along the coastline, right? Starting in Tunisia, um, Libya, Egypt, obviously. But Syria became a different story. I think that's really, really interesting to explore. And let's start there because Jaron, you were in Syria before the war. Maybe, maybe tell us what it was like. Obviously, you have a Western perspective, but you do speak Arabic, so it gives you an insight on what people are talking about on the streets. And what was Syria pre-war?

SPEAKER_06 7:31

I mean, as an international Arabic student, it was amazing. It was the kind of place to be um as an Arabic student at the time, along with places like Cairo and and and Morocco, maybe. Um, I enrolled at the University of Damascus, where a lot of the univ uh European universities would send their Arabic students to study. So you know, you'd go to university every day, you'd be mixing with uh Norwegians and and Brits and Americans and Germans and people from all over the world. Um so there was a really nice scene going on there in terms of the the Arabic language um expat scene. I didn't know Arabic well at that time. I was sort of starting at the at the bottom level and I was learning formal Arabic, which is not the Arabic that people speak on the street, even if everyone understands it and it's the sort of media Arabic that you would hear if you tune into Al Jazeera, for example, or or read a newspaper. Um so I wasn't sort of too clued into um what Syrians were thinking, um, and of course what Syrians were thinking um at the time they may not or wanted to have expressed to me anyway, because um there was such a climate of fear in the country um around any discussions. I remember once uh a rather naive friend of mine, a Norwegian, asked a Syrian in our company um whether people who put the sticker of Bashar al-Assad and Hafiz al-Assad, his father, on the uh on the back window of their car, a lot of the cars in Damascus would have um, you know, pictures of of Bashar and and uh Hafez. Uh and he asked, you know, uh are people putting their stickers on the car because they really support the regime or are they putting it on there just to sort of demonstrate that they're you know compliant and all this sort of thing? And and the response that uh he got was please don't ask that question. You know, it's it's not the sort of question that we should be discussing. So there was definitely a climate of fear around about um political discussions, and that makes it hard. You don't really want to broach those conversations with people because they're the ones at risk, not you when you when you go there.

SPEAKER_08 9:29

That I think that is really important for Westerners to understand, as naive as you might be. But if you if you do travel in a country that is a dictatorship, let alone an oppressive one, that might be a naive question for you. But always keep in mind what this could mean, the repercussions for the person you're asking, let alone expecting to respond to that. Because it might not just be them who are at risk, but also their families, friends and life. But going back to that, what was your do you have some sort of briefing or um pre-introduction before entering the country? Was there a guide you received from the university of how to behave? Because I've done a course of that before for a different country, but uh where you really get the basic norms of do not ask those questions, accept if this happens, even though it's not a standard in the West. But you know, uh did you have any briefing?

SPEAKER_06 10:17

I didn't know much about Syria at all, and I was pretty apprehensive at the time. Um, I did actually pay a company um that specialized in sort of um housing students who are coming to Damascus and helping them settle into the country, um, getting them their residency permits, for example, and taking you to the hospital because um you had to get an AIDS test to show the government that you could stay in the country, that sort of thing. My entry into the country was made easier because I was picked up at the airport by someone. I had housing already set up when I arrived there, um, and all the sort of administrative aspects of settling down in Damascus were looked after, which was nice. And then a couple of months in that house I moved I ended up moving out with a friend into a different suburb and sort of because I'm doing things my own way at that point. So I was politically aware enough um about the the political situation in the country that it was a dictatorship. And um I mean I was more focused at that point on on Arabic, and of course, Syria's got such a rich history as well, so I was attracted by um all the sites that were on offer and started traveling around the country and those sorts of things. So my experience of Syria at that point was probably as a language student and as a tourist, um, a tourist living in the country. Uh I wasn't so focused on the the politics, um, and there hadn't been a lot of change in the country politically. So it wasn't as if you know there'd been a rev revolution two years earlier and I was moving there and there were all these discussions going on on the street, and you know, there was sort of revel revolutionary fervor in the air. Um, although in hindsight, once uh once I left the country and what happened happened, I did start to reflect a bit more deeply on I wonder if I missed some things or should I have taken more of an interest in this at the time.

SPEAKER_08 11:57

And and just confirming uh you left before um the insurgency started. So just give us the time frame again when we sure.

SPEAKER_06 12:06

So I arrived in Syria in August 2009 and I left in October 2010. And then I think I mean the Arab Spring really broke out in late December, early January, and then in in Syria itself in in March. So yeah, it was like five four or five months before before things really broke out.

SPEAKER_07 12:25

I was going to ask earlier. Uh correct me if I'm misremembering this, but I think after you returned you told me that at some point living there you were visited by the security services who were just checking that you were who you were supposed to be, or that you were um somebody who uh is an international student and you had no other sort of um nefarious business in the country. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_06 12:49

There were people around that were suggested this person is uh someone who monitors um the activity of students in a lot of the a lot of the uh Arabic students who go to Damascus would live in the old city. Um and there was one person in particular who was pointed out, you know, this guy's basically monitoring student activity. A political chaperone. Yeah, but there were other characters, um, other other Western students who did receive attention um and were told to sort of start behaving themselves um for various reasons. Um they might have just been living living life a little bit too uh too openly, perhaps partying too hard. I'm not quite sure, but I know of one circumstance where where one student was basically approached, taken aside, and said you need to rein, you know, rein it in a bit.

SPEAKER_08 13:35

Obviously, we're in Damascus, which is always different to being somewhere, you know, 500 kilometres away in a desert. Um was a very secular society, like uh political oppression aside, but there's often countries where you then like you just said, you can still go out, have drinks, enjoy life.

SPEAKER_06 13:51

Yeah, I was I was surprised by that. So basically the situation was um if you were operating in sort of the Christian parts of town, um you could which was centered around the old city of Damascus largely, at least within Damascus. Um a lot of the old city was were Christian communities, uh, and that's where a lot of the tourism in Damascus is centered as well. So you could, you know, walk into the old city and have a beer on the street. Um, you know, there's parks in the old city where people were drinking in in open. Um you know, and that's the sort of thing having recently returned from Egypt that you wouldn't see even in somewhere like Egypt.

SPEAKER_08 14:33

What's always quoted and it's very well documented, is the um diversity of cultures and religions inside of Syria, knowing obviously that Syria is not a a natural entity, that it you know it's uh it's a hangover product of World War One. Assad was a member of the Alawites, which is for me, as I understand it, a very liberal um form of is it Islam or is it Alawites? How which box could you put them in?

SPEAKER_06 15:01

Uh that's a good question. Um it depends who you ask, but it's I mean it's it's often described as a sort of a an offshoot of Shia Islam. Okay. Um so you know, you might ask some people who who don't recognize Shia as Islam, and then if you have an offshoot of Shia Islam, then you're even further removed from the uh original product.

SPEAKER_08 15:21

So um which and then again explains the close ties to Hezbollah and uh Iran later on because they obviously had some sort of connections. You've got the Druze, you've got various Christian nominations, and then you've got uh Sunni Arabs, obviously. Yeah. And uh Kurds. Kurds. It's it's a it's a big mix. It is um when living when living in in in Syria, how prominent was that at the time? Did that did that matter?

SPEAKER_06 15:50

Yeah, not so I didn't notice it so much in the professions. It was more so you know, different parts of town that you would go to. Um, you know, there's definitely Christian areas. You know, okay, I'm in a Christian area now, things are a bit more liberal. Um uh, you know, the w women aren't wearing the hijab in this area, that kind of thing. Um when I first moved to Damascus, I was living in what you would consider a very conservative suburb called El Midan. Um and I had some interesting interactions there with some local uh residents. Uh one in particular, uh I was walking home from the market one night with some friends, and uh your religious background is a topic of curiosity in the Middle East generally as a Westerner. Um especially if you're studying Arabic, there's an assumption or you and a lot of um Muslims will go to the Middle East to learn Arabic because in order to read the Quran in its original language, yeah, you need to learn Arabic. So there's uh an assumption or a suspicion maybe that if you're an Arabic student, you might also be Muslim. So people will ask you if you're Muslim. And then if you say no, then you know the neck the next sort of logical answer is you're a Christian. Um I'm neither. Um so then you have the difficult discussion.

SPEAKER_08 17:00

Yeah, so I remember them too. Tell me about it.

SPEAKER_06 17:02

Well, in this particular instance, I I was honest. I said, no, I'm I'm not Muslim and I'm not Christian, I'm I'm not a believer. Um and this this man sort of indicated he made some sort of flame gestured with his fingers to suggest um the flames of hell, and that I was heading straight to hell when I died, and I thought, okay, it's nice to meet you, but um I've got I've got to get home. I've lost count of the amount of times that that people have asked me about my religious background, which which never happens here in in Australia. Um, so I've sort of just defaulted these days to just saying that I'm a Christian. I mean, I'm a culturally Christian person, I come from a culturally Christian background. Um, so I think it's the easiest way for me.

SPEAKER_08 17:43

I've landed on the same response in my experience because I was asked a few times as well, and I then had to explain what an atheist was. Um once I did that was the worst thing ever because they even said, you know, I prefer if you Christian, I prefer if you Jew, but not believing in God is the worst thing you can do. It really is, yeah. This might sound peculiar to some people, but I think it's really important to understand the role of religion in the Middle East and that it has a different meaning to what it does in the West, where like you just said it doesn't even matter, no one ever asks it, and then religion is something you do on Sunday morning and that's about it. Um, and and then to understand how those secret sectarian violence can erupt because it is really close to people's heart, but obviously it also gets manipulated, and uh, you know, it's it's a political tool, actually, for many, many people. Jan, it was great just to hear from you about your time in uh Syria and also what life was like before the war. Assad the second was in power. We all know that he wasn't meant to be, he wasn't meant to be the president, but he did become the president because his um his older brother died in a car accident, surprisingly. He then uh rose to power in uh 2000. Um he had his actually, should we call him doctor? Because he was a doctor, was he a doctor? Basha at the start.

SPEAKER_06 19:06

He was an ophthalmologist.

SPEAKER_08 19:08

Yeah, so he he uh he studied um medicine and was there to help cure people, make them feel better, and some might argue he did quite the opposite. The Arab Spring broke out, one regime fell after another. There will be a separate putcast episode about Libya, of course, there will be, and of course, also about the Muslim Brotherhood and whatever happened in Egypt, and I'd love to see you back for that too. And I think it's time to dive back in to discuss the man that took over from Assad, how he took over, who he is, and what chance he might give to Syria. Let's maybe start with something spectacular. This.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

I guarantee to bring to justice everyone accountable and responsible for bloodshed. And in this context, Israeli strikes and attacks against my country continue, and Israeli policies contradict the international supporting position for Syria, which threatens new crises and struggles in our region for this purpose. And in face of this aggression, Syria is committed to dialogue, and we're committed to the disengagement of forces agreement of 1974. And we call on the international community to stand beside us in the face of these attacks.

SPEAKER_08 20:35

That was Al Sharrah, and he also has a another name he goes under his nom de guerre, which is Al Jelani. At the General Assembly of the United Nations um in the second half of 2025, in the second half of 2024, no one had a clue who he is. So um what was your reaction to to see this sudden change in personality but also in status around the world?

SPEAKER_06 21:04

I was like many people, I had no idea who who the guy was, and sort of tried to get up to speed as quickly as I I could. When the um HTS, uh the Sharar forces moved south and and Assad fell, everyone was sort of scrambling to work out who this guy was. And at that point there wasn't really a lot of um uh information on him. He'd done some some sort of long interviews um a couple of years earlier, but but since then he's done quite a lot of media. Uh there's a lot of uh suspicion about him, um, understandably given his background, but there's also a lot of hope that um he he more than anyone else can lead Syria into something different.

SPEAKER_08 21:47

And David, you mentioned before, so you know you follow in the news and sometimes you have a chat. Did you know who he was, let alone what his background was?

SPEAKER_07 21:57

Uh I think I was on in the same boat as a lot of the media in terms of uh the speculative um articles that were coming about uh uh uh out about him, his intentions, and what they could possibly divine of the man based on his past. I suppose um with these political players, and he's obviously a very serious one to have been able to um seize power. Uh in a in a fractious state. What is really in his heart? Is he still a jihadist? Is he someone who wants to play that international game, be a statesman, and try to bring peace and some stability to Syria? It's gonna be very interesting to find out. It seems like he's so far at least, uh he's playing his cards quite well.

SPEAKER_08 22:40

Just about his personal background, so Al Jalani his his uh battle name, his Islamist name, he chose that name for a reason.

SPEAKER_06 22:48

Yeah, he did. So his family um uh is from the Golan Heights um originally. Uh and when he he was born in Saudi Arabia, um, lived there for the first seven years of his life, and then his family moved back to Damascus. And then when the Iraq War, America's war in Iraq happened in 2003, that's sort of where his career as a jihadist uh kicked off. So he he moved, I think it was just a couple of weeks before the invasion of Iraq, he caught a bus to Baghdad and sort of joined the um the resistance against the American invasion.

SPEAKER_08 23:26

Yeah, and he basically had a full-time career being a jihadist, isn't it? Like he would have been in his early twenties and then done nothing ever since. Yeah, until last year, really.

SPEAKER_06 23:38

That's right, his whole sort of political life and adult life has been framed by um the war on terror, terror essentially, for in the context of of the US of in invasion of Iraq and everything that sort of flowed from it. Yeah. Um he was arrested um by the US in 2006, I think, in in Iraq. So spent time in Abu Ghraib prison and various other prisons, um, and coincidentally was released by the Iraqi forces only a couple of days before the um the uprising began in Syria.

SPEAKER_08 24:11

And maybe if you could just quickly explain the role of um ISIS ISIL Al Qaeda because what I've heard is that he is actually the the last highest ranking Al-Qaeda official still alive, and hence the ten million dollar bounty on his head until recently. So, what do we know about him rising through the ranks and becoming the most powerful Islamist in Syria?

SPEAKER_06 24:35

Yeah, well, we know it's pretty clear that he was in contact with very senior Al-Qaeda leaders um when he was in Iraq. Um so shortly after he was released in 2011, he was tasked, and remember um Osama bin Laden was assassinated in May 2011, I think. So after Osama bin Laden um was killed, um uh his second in command took over Zawahiri. Jolani was tasked with um basically going to Syria and setting up Al-Qaeda's branch in Syria. Yeah, he was given fifty thousand dollars, I read, uh and told you can go over there and and set up um al-Qaeda in Syria, which is what he did. A couple of years later, there was an attempt by uh Abu Bakr al-Baghdati, who was the head of um Islamic State in Iraq to sort of claim ownership of uh Al-Qaeda in Syria, and uh he announced unilaterally the creation of what we now know as ISIL, so Islamic State in uh Iraq and the Levant. Um that was rejected by the Al-Qaeda leadership and by um Jolani, and that led to a break with um Islamic State in Iraq, and then a couple of years after that, Jolani sort of separated himself from Al-Qaeda as a group, and that's when he sort of went out and branched off and set up his own organization. But was there a catalyst for that? Something that um prompted that or was um geographic or I think the catalyst was is that he was um starting to focus on Syria and creating uh uh a movement that was focused on Syria nationally rather than transnational jihad, which had sort of um you know, they talk in in the literature about the far enemy and the near enemy. And within um Al-Qaeda, I think at some point there was this sort of strategic decision if we really want to get rid of these, and I'm paraphrasing their logic here, this is not uh me speaking. Uh, if we want to sort of get rid of these repressive regimes in the Middle East, then we need to um go after the uh the government, which in their mind was the United States that is ultimately supporting these regimes. So the US was the far enemy and the Arab sort of despotic regimes were the near enemy. So Jolani, when he's come back to Syria and he's had this breach with Al-Qaeda, I think he'd by that point become more of a you know, we uh we just need to focus on um taking out Assad and his proxies, uh Hezbollah and and Iranian influence generally, and then sort of morphed over a number of years into more of a pragmatic um figure who sort of set up this mini-state in the Idlib province and started sending out messages um via his media interviews to the world to say I'm I'm someone that you can deal with. Um I'm not the guy that I used to be. Um and that's the sort of Jolani that we've that we've seen today, or Ahmed Ashara as he's now known.

SPEAKER_08 27:46

And what a success story from prisoner to rebel leader, insurgent, terrorist, most wanted man really in in Syria. What really blows my mind is how recent this all is. Like we're talking less than twelve months ago. Um it and now he speaks at the United Nations. We've just heard uh him talk, and let's have another listen to what he's got to say.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Ladies and gentlemen, from the very moment the former regime fell, we set out a clear strategic policy built upon three pillars balanced diplomacy, security, stability, and economic development. We filled the power vacuum, called for an inclusive national dialogue, and announced a government of competence. We strengthened the principle of participation and established a national commission for transitional justice, and another for the missing, ensuring justice and fairness. We are now proceeding toward electing representatives of the people in the legislative council. We restructured civil and military institutions, dissolving all previous formations. Through intensive diplomatic activity, Syria restored its international relations and forged regional and global partnerships and achieved the gradual lifting of most sanctions. And we call now for the complete lifting of sanctions so that they no longer shackle the Syrian people.

SPEAKER_08 29:20

So theoretically, he's got many more years to turn Syria into something better.

SPEAKER_07 29:26

Yeah, he's conquered a fractured state, and we're here recording a podcast. He's uh he's a bit younger than we are, too. So, you know, that's a life of dedication well spent, depending on what happens.

SPEAKER_08 29:36

The whole world, including every secret service, is trying to figure this man out. I think or my little information that I have that most important is that he's not corrupt. I think that's the number one that's a message that he needs to send. I was actually surprised that he moved into the same palace again, which is usually when there's a change of leadership, that that's a symbol um that people are trying to have a Um in comparison to the previous regime. The colour of the flag has obviously changed. So the red was removed, it's now green, to get rid of that association with the Assad clan. And that is the juggle he has to be successful in.

SPEAKER_06 30:15

Yeah, he's he's got a lot of work to do. There's a lot of moving parts. And I mean, I've listened to several of his long-form interviews in Arabic, and it's clear he's a very intelligent person, and he's got a very good reading of geopolitics. He understands the situation he's in, he understands the situation Syria's in, um, and he understands how how weak Syria is. Um, and when you're running a weak state, you don't have many bargaining chips. So I think the position he's in now is that um he's doing what he can to try and establish um relationships on just a on a let's just call them normal state-to-state relations, um, to build trade relationships with his neighbors, to have good relations with all his neighbors, including Israel, it seems, as negotiations under underway around um a security agreement between those two countries. Um, and that includes the West. The messaging that the government is putting out is um pretty consistent. You know, we're A, we're not the guys we used to be, we're not um jihadists, we're gonna respect um, you know, the diversity of Syria's um ethnic and religious makeup. Um we're gonna respect the role of women in society, all the sort of messages that um, you know, sound great to a to a Western ears and and also to many, many in the region as well. Um but there's a at the same time, there's a a real deep suspicion, and people are like people understand also that politicians that's part of their job really is to say whatever they need to say in order to to retain power and to keep power. So the big the big question out there around um Ahmed Ashara at the moment is how much do you trust really what this guy's about? Um is he saying all the right things just to appease certain actors? But ultimately his game plan is something totally different. So that's that's the big question.

SPEAKER_08 32:19

David, um, we mentioned you know the the juggle, that like incredibly skilled political talent that he needs to have, even to where he's now, but to to move his country forward. Um there's questions as like I said about corruptions, you know, conspiracy theories of him being a puppet or bought by another power. Um, I'm not sure if he is. I hope he's not for the sake of the country because that was would obviously backfire. But then there's also yeah, the big question of legitimacy. And um, you know, he hasn't he's only been there for a few months, and there's already questions about elections, democracy. Um, the first ever elections since Assad were held in uh in early October. I think about 6,000 people were allowed to partake. I think it was more symbolism than anything else. But what we expect is from any other war-ravaged country, like just looking back the last 20, 30 years, who expects democratic elections to take place across the board after such a long 13-year war? I've looked it up again. I think it was 500,000 people that are considered dead uh over that time. Who would expect fair democratic elections after that?

SPEAKER_07 33:34

The factors that precipitated um Bashayl Assad's uh departure or the collapse of his regime are now the millstone around um the new regime's neck. And also, how do you reinvigorate an economy which had basically deteriorated into you you mentioned a mafia state before or a kleptocracy? Um you have uh all of the um elements and industries had basically been gutted. They didn't they they no longer had um you know functioning power grid almost operating as a failed state. Uh and as you mentioned politically, you have to balance um external actors, uh on the one hand the US, uh, and also then you have um Russia and Iran who were propping up the previous regime. If they choose uh or would they choose, is there any strategic benefit for them to try to destabilize, undermine, or um gain some political influence in Syria? I'm not sure. Because uh if that if the heat from those different sides returns, um how can this ban possibly hold on?

SPEAKER_06 34:52

Yeah, and I think you raise Russia, and I think there's a a point to be made here about the sort of pragmatist that El Sharai is. He's in discussions that the the new regime is in discussions with Russia about sort of keeping the relations alive, acknowledging the role that Russia had played in Syria over the last 15 years, it would be understandable for a new government to come in and go, look, we don't want anything to do with Russia anymore.

SPEAKER_08 35:16

You know, um after so many bombs have been dropped.

SPEAKER_06 35:19

That's right. We don't want to talk to you, but um, there's a sort of pragmatism about um, look, this is a new we're in a new era here. We're gonna have conversations with everyone, probably even the Iranians. Um, and if we can come to an agreement that works for you and works for us and that serves Syrian interests, then you know, we're happy to talk. That seems to be their approach.

SPEAKER_08 35:39

That's how quickly things change. Um foreign powers are crucial. Israel semi-invaded as soon as he took power, um, kept attacking, kept bombing. Still of a sovereign state, you know, um military uh airfields did uh a lot more destruction than the war did itself just in a few days. There's the role of Qatar. Uh Iran is where weak, obviously. Um about Russia. That's an interesting one. You've just mentioned it. And um we do have a few quotes here on Pudjcast, and uh one quote of the day uh comes from a certain man, David.

SPEAKER_07 36:17

Okay, so Jaron, I think um Oliver would like you to try to guess who um who said this. There is no other solution to the Syrian crisis than strengthening the effective government structures and rendering them to help in fighting terrorism, but at the same time urging them to engage in positive dialogue with the rational opposition and conduct reform. Any ideas?

SPEAKER_06 36:41

Was it Putin?

unknown 36:43

Correct.

SPEAKER_06 36:44

Spot on. It was.

SPEAKER_08 36:45

Yes, um, we haven't quite got the Putschcast Award ready yet, but you would certainly win it. That was bullseye, Vladimir Putin, uh, on the 24th of September 2015. Ten years ago. That's what he said about the Assad regime, and I'm sure you could extract the same quote and use it for now, for the same situation now. Um because fighting terrorism is still a thing. There's still pockets of um what was considered terrorism until recently. Again, always depends on the definition. I think we started um talking about who the man is, and we talked about foreign influence, but there's one man he needs to get along with, um, so does everyone else in the world. Uh here he is.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

You couldn't make a phone call to Syria. So we we did that, and uh I met the new leader of the country, and uh he's got a you know strong past. That would be very nice. He's got a strong past, but I liked him a lot. Uh I think he'd be a great representative, and uh we'll see. You're gonna have to have a strong past to put that one around. You can't you cannot be a weak person. Uh if you're a weak person, we would just be wasting time. So he's a strong guy, and I thought he was good. And uh, let's see what happens, but we're gonna give him a fighting chance by taking off the sanctions.

SPEAKER_08 38:01

That was Donald Trump. Um yes, you have to maybe not make friends with him, but you have to charm in in in in some way. NATO does it. Um I think everyone but Vladimir Putin's trying to charm Trump over the last year, and uh Al-Shara certainly has to as well. Yeah, he called him a strong leader and he has faith in him and is also pragmatic and wants to work with Al-Shara. Now, just about the man himself. So Al-Shara. When I first saw him, before I saw the Islamist pictures of him, you know who he reminded me of with his newly trimmed beard, um and he was wearing a green jacket at the time. I thought of a very young Fidel Castro, a Fidel Castro of the Arab world. For me, this is the only thing missing was the physical resemblance or the beard, um the whole revolutionary spirit, um, taking down a regime within uh, you know, um in a very, very unorthodox way in a very short period of time.

SPEAKER_07 39:02

Did you say 11 days, something like that?

SPEAKER_08 39:04

Yes, yeah. Um and and I just thought, yes, different continent, different era, different decades, different religion, different everything. But I think just the visual of this this and that's what I meant with the topic of corruption before. He needs to, and he I think he does portray himself as this capable statesman, but he's also still a revolutionary at heart. And he he needs to, even though he said the revolution is over, now we're trying to you know build a state, he still has which is what Fidel Castro did, right? And he did it very successfully, at least to stay in power for decades, decades, and uh the regime is still there. Is there such a thing as a uh Middle Eastern version of uh of um Latino revolutionary?

SPEAKER_06 39:51

I'm not sure if I can if I know enough about Fidel Castro's past to um to say yes or no, but I understand what you're saying, especially the visual of the of the khaki jacket.

SPEAKER_02 40:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 40:01

I mean, I think what's clear is that uh El Sharra has been through sort of several phases. He had his jihadi phase where he went to Iraq, then he had his phase where he was essentially running Al-Qaeda in Syria, and then he made a move away from you know those jihadists, outwardly jihadist networks, and tried to present himself as more of a um an alternative nationalist um military figure who could rival um Bashar al-Assad and also be seen to be someone who's palatable to external powers, which is I think probably the phase you're referring to when you're seeing him in his in his khaki military fatigues. He made a pretty quick transition as soon as he arrived in Damascus. Um, I think when he the day he arrived, he went to the Umayyad uh Umayyad Mosque and he was which is what I'm referring to.

SPEAKER_08 40:56

This is when I saw him in this in this, I think he was wearing that khaki jacket.

SPEAKER_06 40:59

That's right.

SPEAKER_08 41:00

Um it was so wild, you know, almost people holding up Kalashnikovs and it just had that that revolution. Again, the only thing for me missing was the cigar. And I think I might have seen a picture of him with a cigar anyway. That's right. Um, yeah, and then he he went to this historic place, and maybe tell us more about uh the importance of this location that he chose.

SPEAKER_06 41:18

Yeah, so the Muyad Mosque is in the right in the heart of the old city of Damascus. It's one of the first places I think I went there on like my second day in in Syria. Um really ancient um historic mosque, has a massive um sort of marble square, just a really rich sort of marquee um landmark in in Syria.

SPEAKER_08 41:42

So he went there and and it's an it's an actual in-use mosque. Yes, it is. It is people still go there to pray and worship.

SPEAKER_06 41:48

People go there to pray and worship, and and you can also just enter um as a tourist, you take your shoes off, yeah um, walk around the square in your socks. And um it's it's it's a really central part of Syrian.

SPEAKER_08 42:00

And it obviously survived the civil war. So do you think it survived a civil war because of its uh significance?

SPEAKER_06 42:07

Oh, I think it survived um due to its physical location more than anything. It's in the heart of you know, um the regime's power base, which was um Damascus and and Latakia, which is on the coast, but Damascus, the the inside of Damascus, I think, or the the heart of Damascus, didn't see the fighting that other parts of um Syria saw, although I think there are bullet holes around the mosque. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 42:29

Um which is I think it's so deceiving, isn't it? Like when you watch the news now in the last couple of weeks and months in the second half of 25, and you've got which is great to see those first civil developments happening in decades. And this is the second, third generation that has grown up under the same regime. So it's hard for people, plus they didn't have flourishing democracy before that either. It's really, really hard for a Westerner to understand how how how really basic for us, but challenging for them it is to simply get together, talk about politics without being worried of repercussions, um, any negative influences, impacts uh on your family, on yourself. And you see those images now in you know in in Western television, and you think there's no war there, it all looks beautiful. They sit in cafe houses, and that is probably that part of Damascus that you're referring to. Because when you see Aleppo in other places, it's it looks like a yeah, like a wasteland.

SPEAKER_06 43:28

Yeah, that's right. And um, I mean, you can talk about the fall of Assad Bashar al-Assad, but of course his father ruled um Syria from I think 1971 is when he took formal power, but even before that, he was uh an Air Force commander and and minister of defense. So the the Assad family's sort of political power goes back right to the early 60s and mid-60s. But I mean, the story even before that, between the period when Syria gained its independence in 1946 through to the rise of the Bahr Party and um and and the Assads, there were coups through that period as well. So, I mean, if things go well now, and that's a big if, um, I'm sort of agnostic on the matter, um, it's really for Syria an opportunity for something that they haven't had uh ever, if if they can get that stability and and and sort of establish the the functions of a democratic state. But just quickly back to uh Asharra and his transformations, yes, the day after he makes that speech when he um you know moves from a phase of a of a military commander who's got this objective to to take down the Assad government, he finally achieves that goal. He starts wearing a suit and a tie. So this is the the final stage, I guess, where he's now trying to present as an international statesman. Um, and a big part of that is the clothes he wears and and the way he talks and um the language he uses. So that's the phase we're seeing now. Yeah. But his ability to sort of shape shift and um, you know, present as as one thing at one period and present at another uh as another thing at another time might for some people might be, oh well, he's reacting to um events as he sees them, but for others it might be, well, that's a deeply suspicious characteristic in a person that they um will change their positions and and not stick to something that they really believe in. You know, if if if you can change that radically, then how do we trust that you won't change again?

SPEAKER_08 45:26

So question, Jaron, when he was speaking at the mosque, was he still Al-Julani or was he a Sharra? I think he dropped the moment when he changed his name.

SPEAKER_06 45:35

I think that's probably the historical moment where he changed from Al-Julani to um his his birth name, Ashara. Yeah. Uh Ahmed Ashara. Um, and and sort of dropped. I mean, I think even when he was in Iraq, he wasn't using that um Julani name. It was only when he he returned to Syria and was tasked with um, you know, setting up Al-Qaeda in Iraq that he he drew on that, you know, I've got Syrian heritage here, I'm I'm from the Golan Heights, and by the way, the Golan Heights is occupied by Israel, so that adds another dimension to the his you know, his usage of that that history.

SPEAKER_08 46:12

David, you've mentioned before the magic number. The magic number is eleven. Eleven days it took for things to change. Eleven days it took after 13 years of civil war to bring the Assad regime to uh an absolute collapse, ending up on an airplane to Russia with his family. He got out there alive just in the nick of time.

SPEAKER_07 46:40

Again, as uh an outside observer with no real depth of knowledge um of the um of Syria and and its politics, it did seem like a regime that wouldn't buckle. That others that others were different and this was something that would never that would never fall, probably a lot like uh the West's approach to um communism, um, the Berlin Wall, etc., in the early 80s, thinking that this was something that we are going to have to live with forever. Yeah, um, but it can fall so quickly.

SPEAKER_08 47:17

So yeah, and it all started on the the 27th of November, just to um give uh listeners an idea. So 27th of November is when uh everyone hopped on their trucks, uh loaded their guns in Idlib, which where he was running this mini state, and I think this is all the credibility he's he's drawing on ever since that I've done this before on a small scale, I can do this for all of Syria. Like you said, it was a functioning mini society, wasn't that, for quite a while. So there were civil services, people had, I think, uh a higher standard of living than the rest of the country, which was uh ironic that um the president backed by the you know, one of the most powerful countries in the world didn't manage to provide that lifestyle, um, unlike those rebels um who did. And it all started on the 27th of November 24. Um, and within three days they took Aleppo. Um, what happened with Assad in Aleppo? There was a history there.

SPEAKER_06 48:10

I mean, to understand, we're really asking the question now what were the conditions before the fall of Assad that made it so easy? Um, I think the answers for that are pretty simple in hindsight. Um the country's economy was in ruins um after 13, 14 years of of fighting um and the imposition of Western sanctions and the displacement, both internal and external, of um 14 million people in your country. I mean, there's no way that you can sustain an economy um under those conditions, which is why the regime um you know resorted to certain methods to try and raise funds. I think that some of the most well-known of those are um there was a pretty well-known business, a shakedown of the of the business elite in 2019. So essentially a whole bunch of um wealthy business figures were invited to the Sheraton Hotel in in Damascus and basically told, you need to give us money or you're gonna get arrested. Um so and that and that went on for years. Um and simultaneously there was this um entry by the regime into the production of um Keptagon, which I think most um people will be aware of now. But um the government basically went into a a full-time operation producing 80% of the world's um Keptagon uh supply, um, which was exported through the port of um Latakia on the coast and also across the border um in the south of the country through to Jordan. So that was I've read estimates that that was raising anywhere between five to fifty billion dollars uh annually for the regime. Um, but of course, that kind of money doesn't spread out to people across society. That's um, and I think that's partly why you can describe it as a sort of a mafioso type regime, heavily centralized in in the Assad family. So that that sort of led to a situation where the daily life for Syrians uh on an economic level was just unbearable. I think the annual uh sorry, the the monthly salary for for government officials was 15 to 30 um US dollars a month.

SPEAKER_08 50:27

Um which is nothing in any country, it's nothing in that's a joke.

SPEAKER_06 50:31

No, that's right. And and um, you know, there were stories too of of um regime troops siphoning off fuel from their tanks to sort of sell to to get by. So um, you know, uh this goes to I think the point of the the military failure of the Assad regime if you've people need something to fight for, and if you're not paying your troops and your troops aren't um you know even making enough money to survive, then why would they bother fighting for that kind of regime? So um, yes, it was partly um um uh Ashar and his forces um heading from the north to the south, but by the same token, it was just a total collapse of of the regime. And I think once the Russians and the Iranians saw that the Syrians aren't even Syrian troops and the Syrian army's not going to fight for itself. So, what hope have we got in sort of propping up this regime any longer?

SPEAKER_08 51:24

And then yeah, I I do see all those, and and here on this podcast we're allowed to to go out there a bit, but I I see all those parallels to the fall of Kabul. Um the Taliban, you know, used their poppy seed farms also to fund fund their um their war efforts. Ragtag band of um guys on the back of youths with uh Kalashnikovs, and uh the biggest powers in the world packed up, the whole thing collapsed, and within weeks uh there was a new regime that's still in place today. Very different outcome, obviously, with uh Ashara seeking the secular approach that he does now, at least to a certain extent, secular, like I said, or at least being tolerant of minorities.

SPEAKER_06 52:04

Yeah, but if you think secular is probably too strong a word, I'd say when you certainly when you compare um what he is saying about how he envisages Syria, which is often in response to questions from you know um external um voices, but also Syrians who have genuine aspirations for that kind of country. Um he's he's saying the right things about that, but I think um he's he would his vision of what Syria would be would would still be um heavily influenced by his um sort of background, his religious background.

SPEAKER_08 52:39

Then on it went further south, further um to Hama, Hama fell, and then on the 6th of December, Dara, which is where it all started in 2011. And I remember waking up watching news every morning, another city was fallen, wasn't it? Like a house of cards that came down. And um, you've just mentioned, and I've mentioned the word corruption before because I think it's so crucial to understand why those spreadsheets and numbers that are always brought up when a conflict builds up, and you say, Oh, they've got 5,000 tanks and they've got 3,000 tanks and they've got a million men in arms. And but then what happens in real life is always so different, and often it is because of morale and it is because of corruption, and it might all look good on paper, and we've seen that with the invasion of Ukraine as well. You know, everyone thought it's a it's a weak job for the Russians, and they're still there until this day. And what I've heard, and that's probably the last point I want to touch on today, is the implications. Because you said, you know, before the war, Syria was a different country and it's just radicalized every element of society. And obviously the Assad regime was the main driver behind that, um, by avoiding any form of dialogue, compromise, um, and just choosing um a crackdown as the only choice, is that I've heard that unlike other states, oppressive regimes that have one secret service, you know, KGB and the Soviet Union, the Stasi and Germany, Sirkuritate in Romania. In in Syria, up until now, there were many of them. The Air Force one, where Hafiz the father started his career, which apparently had the most powerful secret service where it all started. But then there were many other branches, and the other service had their own, and they were all competing, divide and rule sort of tactic. But in the end, it came to a stage where people were just arrested for ransom. So it got to a stage where it wasn't even about oppressing and opposition anymore. It was uh people became cash chaos, and your own son just disappeared on the way home from school. And unless you paid up, um, you never saw him again.

SPEAKER_06 54:44

Is have you heard stories like this before? I mean, I think that's that's interesting too about the use of the word corruption because you know, when we talk about corruption, often we think about um, you know, a behavior or a or a set of actions that are completely at odds with you know a mainstream expectation about how um government should function and and what's right about a government. But when you have a regime like the Assad regime, which is its foundation is corruption, then the whole um machinery of the state is is is corrupt. So that you know it's it's the founding principle of of a regime like that is corruption. So um I think now that that is is gone, um, you know, the the sure the question of corruption is there, but I think how do you wipe that out?

SPEAKER_08 55:30

How do you eradicate entrenched corruption that has been part of a system for generations?

SPEAKER_06 55:37

My my main point is that now that the Assad regime is gone, which was at heart a corrupt regime, um that's gonna be a lot easier.

SPEAKER_08 55:44

It can't get worse. Is that your message?

SPEAKER_06 55:45

Well, no, I think it I think it can get a lot better. Yeah. I think um and it can get a lot better a lot very quickly.

SPEAKER_08 55:51

Now what I've talked about before is the regime has fallen. Al Shahra has a unique historic opportunity. I think we are giving him a chance. That's sort of what I'm taking from today. I think he might be there for the right reasons.

SPEAKER_06 56:11

I mean, we have no choice but to um hope for the best. I mean, you it's tempting in political analysis to um I mean, I've got a whole bunch of values that I bring to any discussion. Uh the reality is he's the guy that's there now.

SPEAKER_02 56:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 56:26

Um, and he's saying a whole bunch of things about where he thinks Syria's gonna go. I hope um that uh you know he sticks to that and the country does head in that direction. Um, but I there's no guarantees that it will. Um there is, you know, um, I will say that there's a lot of people now or a lot of actors that uh have a lot riding on his success, um, you know, the Turks, the US, um, countries in the Gulf.

SPEAKER_08 56:57

Um yeah, everyone came to the party quite quickly, wasn't that? The Europeans as well. They were on the on the plane as soon as he entered the the Palace.

SPEAKER_06 57:05

Yeah, so that bodes well. There isn't uh except for Israel, which I think, as I say, there's some discussions going on now. But um if if at least they don't have external actors um actively trying to undermine you know this fledgling state, then I think that puts him in a better position.

SPEAKER_08 57:22

Which is obviously um helped by the distractions still happening in Ukraine and also in Gaza. I think if it wasn't for those two conflicts, there might be more of a scrutiny around him. Last thing I want to talk about today is we talked about the resources, we talked about the politics. Um let's talk about the people. I I can barely imagine another people that have undergone so much trauma and injury over such a long time. 13 years is very long for a war that just never really stopped. Yes, we had the feeling about a year or two or three years ago that Assad has won and it's calming down, but it never obviously did. Uh, plus the majority of young capable people have all left, they're all abroad, and you're friends with with quite a few of them. Now you you have a highly, highly traumatized population. The many scores to be settled still. How do you work with that?

SPEAKER_06 58:19

Yeah, it's a challenge. I mean, Syrians I know who are now living in third countries. Yeah. Um I think I mean there's mixed reactions. Some Syrians were like, great, I'm high I'm I'm heading straight there.

SPEAKER_02 58:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 58:32

Um, this is our chance, and I want to get my feet on the ground and help build build my country. That was sort of one reaction I've seen. Others are more cautious. Um I'm gonna wait and see how things play out over the next couple of years because it's a big deal to move, you know, if you've set up routes in in Europe or elsewhere to then just, you know, um to leave and go back to Syria. You don't want to risk, you know, a repeat of sort of the traumas that you've already experienced. So there's there's that cohort who are sort of waiting for Syria and hoping for the best, and maybe thinking that at some point in the future they'll go back. Um, but there's you know, millions and millions of Syrians, as you as you mentioned, outside the country, and but I think all of them at least share uh the wish that the country um succeeds.

SPEAKER_08 59:18

And we we do also want to recognize that there has been sectarian violence since there was uh incidents in June and July with hundreds of people killed again, who's really at fault we don't know. Or, you know, there's various claims. Um again, he's got a very, very interesting mix of people that are fighting for him. They need to be appeased, paid off in some form. And uh now's the time to set up the new Syria. And of course, there will be people with wrong intentions there too.

SPEAKER_06 59:46

I'm glad you mentioned that because there have been, you know, it wasn't like since the fall of the regime everything's just gone swimmingly since then. Yeah. Um there have been abuses and massacres, um, and there have been um, you know, investigations, independent investigations.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:00

investigations and and the regime's done its own investigations into to what caused that and um al-Sharra has said the regime has said that there will be you know justice for those who have committed crimes whether whether that happens or not um remains to be seen but yeah it's it's a fragile situation um that's for sure I'm hoping that he stays the course I'm hoping that he has that feeling that that sensitivity around international relations um I can't predict Netanyahu it's just that he's unpredictable just as Trump is at the moment and um because he clearly has the power to take him out whenever he wants to at the moment um but I do hope that the situation stabilizes because now is the time of a new beginning as well and I can totally understand in expert communities how people say we got to go there now because this in in as history shows is usually the time when you want to be there you you want to set up shop. Obviously all the high government hosts are now available because you can't really work with the people that were there before.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:02

The other thing to be said is at the end of this transitional period which I think now probably has about four years to run it was a five year transitional period that um was set up um that we're going through and then I think the intention is after that five years, you know, it'll start functioning the way other states function regular full-scale elections that sort of thing um so the question for me is at that point, you know, what sort of political life are we going to be witnessing in in Syria? Are there going to be competing parties? Are we going to have secular parties? Are we how is political um power going to be divided? What is sort of the sharing of political power in terms of political parties and and those sorts of affiliations going to be when when we see full-scale national elections and and how many Syrians who are currently living abroad who've got an interest in Syria are going to be back in the country or and will those who are living outside the country be able to participate? So all those sorts of things are things to watch.

SPEAKER_08 1:01:58

Maybe a Lebanese model when it ever functioned but the Lebanese model of you know power sharing between the different um religions and sections of society where where there's quotas in place um to represent minorities um possibly although I think the the sort of ethnic divisions are much different in Syria it's got a 75% Sunni majority um so and uh the civil war has mixed all that up anyway again who's got any reliable credible numbers statistics um on on Syria I don't think anyone does now you are listening to Putschcast of course thank you for spending so much time with us on our first inaugural episode uh we are trying to establish little traditions here at Putschcast and one of them is um to define what we've talked about today.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:46

Number one is was it a putsch I'd say it was based on the fact that uh it was a military forceful military um overthrow of an existing regime yes second question was it a successful one so far but yeah I I would classify it as a successful one if if if your measure of success is that you wanted to get rid of a brutal dictator who'd been sort of hijacked a country for decades then yes.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:12

And the third question is was it a um a bloody or a velvet one? I mean contextually if you're looking at uh that part of the world and transitions of power it's probably as bloodless as you're gonna get yeah if you start the tape um you know on the 27th of November you can look at it that way um you could also put the tape back to 2011 and say one of the worst that was you know just the the final piece of a long 14 year um bloody revolution I think that is really important that context to see because often in history we don't know when the conflict well we know when it started but you never really know when it finished right and sometimes conflicts just get frozen and they never get resolved um and as they say the the next war is built on a on a bad peace accord um so we'll we'll see what happens next so thank you for answering those questions because that helps us to tag this particular episode on our website putcast.com Syria the country that will um surely surely pop up many more times on Putschcast and um I'm proud to share here that there will be another episode coming up very soon where we will uh take a closer look at the Assad regime and we take a behind the scenes look as we will be talking to Luke Waters. Luke Waters used to be a journalist at Dateline that's a program in Australia very well renowned foreign affairs program and he worked for a public broadcaster there and he was one of the first Western journalists in the middle of the war to be invited to Syria to Damascus to speak face to face with Assad in English. I can also recommend you to watch that video maybe beforehand and um Luke has promised to give us some real good insights into what it was like how the hell do you line up an interview with a dictator how do you get there? What is the security protocol? And um did you feel safe doing it so uh we'll we'll hear about that. And I think we hopefully one day we'll find out what happened to him because I'm not quite sure where he is what he's doing is he still alive um yes apparently he lives on the outskirts of Moscow in a villa but you never know you never know and uh there are rumors he's getting divorced as well and that his wife's trying to go back to the UK divorce rumor yeah yeah that was Putschcast episode number one I want to thank my guests Jaron Sutton and my co-host who we will hear again hopefully on the next moment Luke and uh if you have any suggestions uh send us an email putchcast at gmail.com visit our website putschcast.com and also follow us on socials we are on Instagram we are on Facebook and of course we are also on YouTube um no video at this stage because we're still looking for more sponsors to make this happen but we have sponsors already and I want to thank uh Motorcycle Rental Melbourne very much for making this episode happen today um every dollar helps and if you want to make a difference again reach out to us and suggest a topic as well unfortunately we will never run out of content on this podcast because world history keeps evolving my name is Oliver hosting putchcast for you today I want to thank you for listening and don't forget to check out our social channels