#7 Venezuela - Local Voices on Trump's latest Gamble

The Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro has been captured, not while on a state visit abroad, but at his own stronghold in Caracas. While the US President opted for a sudden military operation, regime change was not the ultimate goal. So, was it a putsch from abroad and how did people on the streets respond?

After years of economic strife, international sanctions, and a divided opposition, the country is at a historic turning point. On this episode of Putschcast, you will hear from two people who were on the ground that night, sharing their memories of the event that made history, and the aftermath that followed.

Our guests are Dr. Thomas Schaumberg, Director of the Goethe Institut in Caracas, who was in the capital the night the bombs went off, and Australian expat and YouTuber Phillip Campbell, who has made Venezuela his home and strives to tell a different story about the South American country he loves.

Learn more about the Goethe Institut in Caracas here.

Visit Phil's Youtube blog here.

Check out Putschcast as video on our new Youtube channel. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram and share with your friends and foes. 

Send us an email to putschcast@gmail.com and visit our website.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:05

The Venezuelan president has just been captured. After years of economic strife, international sanctions, and a divided opposition, a sudden military move has taken him out. Was it justified? Probably not. Was it legal? Definitely not. My name is Oliver Heuter. Welcome to a special episode of Putschcast on what just happened to Nicola Maduro. Socialist strongman to powerless detainee. Over the next hour or so, you will hear from people on the ground with points of views and stories you may not have heard in recent weeks on mainstream media. We speak with a German cultural envoy in Caracas and an Australian expert who prefers life in Venezuela. With me in the studio today, my co-host David. This is our first podcast on South America.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

It is. And what a time.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

Did you see this coming?

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Not this particular series of events, uh, an absolute surprise. I don't think anyone anywhere around the world uh thought that this particular action would be taken by the US and that it would ultimately be successful.

SPEAKER_03 1:20

We have a WhatsApp chat going in our in our Putschcast community, and Dave, you remember I dropped in there that maybe that historic, as Trump calls it, meeting in Alaska between him and Putin wasn't all about Ukraine because days later the fleet started moving towards the south. Tensions built up. I think there were one-sided tensions, and we speak to our guests about that later on. Where did you think this was going? Because clearly Trump had an agenda. But what happened now surprised everyone.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Obviously, uh ratcheting up pressure showing that they were not afraid to use military force to um gain leverage with uh the Venezuelan government. Nobody thought, and again, listening to a lot of experts, um no one expected this level of intervention, what we would call an extraterritorial abduction uh of a sitting leader, yes, uh a dictator. Is this a crazy precedent that the Trump administration is setting? Is it a warning sign? Did they just choose to pick on one of the weakest links in South America to show that it could be done? What is all this saber rattling about and what will happen to Venezuela in the aftermath?

SPEAKER_03 2:31

I think what it's about, we all know oil. And what is so good about Trump is that he just doesn't bother hiding it. He's been very very um pragmatic about it. He he mentioned we want control of the oil, and uh that's all he cares about. And apparently it's beneficial to the American and the Venezuelan people.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

But it's not a quick fix if you talk to uh or listen to anyone who has any idea about the crumbling infrastructure in that country and the type of crude that Venezuela has access to. Yes, they have the largest reserves in the world. Billions upon billions of dollars uh of investment will be required to make that a viable business enterprise for the American companies. Only Chevron currently have access uh to the market in Venezuela at the moment. I know Trump wants to open it up. How that will work um is anyone's guess, and how it will work in uh cooperation or not uh with the Venezuelan government is anyone's guess as well.

SPEAKER_03 3:28

And for historical context, this has been brewing really for 25 years because there's a man called Ugo Chavez that you really need to understand in order to make sense of what just happened without knowing too much about him. Look him up on YouTube, look up his speeches. He was really in the news a lot. He is a charismatic leader, even if you don't speak Spanish, it's very easy to see why what he says resonates with people.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

He had an incredible cult of personality in that country. There is still a shadow of it that I think Maduro had tried to inhabit, but um very big shoes to fill.

SPEAKER_05 4:08

I'll try. I will try. A great leader of you, Martin Luther King is my leader. You now he said, I have a dream. His dream, Martin Luther King's dream. It's your dream, it's our dream, it's my dream.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

His body didn't do the duty that he wanted it to do, so he ended up in Cuba dying of cancer. And this is where the man comes in that today's episode is about, Nicola Maduro, because he was the then vice president, as I understand it.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

And his appointed successor, yes.

SPEAKER_03 4:46

David, you have done a bit of research on Maduro before we speak to people on the grounds. Tell us more about this man who's now in handcuffs with a blindfold all over social media.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

He may have been to New York already, who knows? I mean, there's nothing probably that he hasn't seen before, right?

SPEAKER_03 5:02

And I assume he didn't give consent to any of his photos being used.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

No.

SPEAKER_03 5:06

Who's this man?

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Nicola Maduro. His father was a trade union leader, and he was raised under the significance influence, the influence of his father's politics. He attended high school. There are no records whether or not he finished, and of course, there's a long history of socialist leaders either not finishing or um finishing school or going to university. He joined the Socialist League of Venezuela, a Marxist-Leninist party in the early 80s. At the age of 24 and 1986, Maduro was sent as a representative of the Socialist League to Cuba for a year of political training. Upon his return, he started working as a bus driver in Caracas' City Metro system, and he founded the Syndicate, uh Syndicate of Bus Drivers in 1991. So he was politically active almost immediately upon his return. He became active in uh the Transport Workers' Union, so a more formal organization, uh trade workers' union organization in the late 80s, and he again founded one of the country's first informal labor syndicates. He met his future wife, Celia Flores, when she headed the legal team that won Freedom for Chavez in 1994. So there is a link there. This woman is also uh she wields considerable power uh within the regime, or did until um the extradition, she was also removed from the country as well. After Chavez was pardoned and released, Maduro joined the movement of the Fifth Republic, a socialist political party, and in 1997, to run in the 1998 elections. He was elected to the National Constituent Assembly while Chavez won the presidency. So these two men are linked from this point in time. Chavez ascends to power. In 1999, and this is where Maduro has his hands on turning Venezuela from a democracy into really what we will call a one-party state. He was a member of the National Constituent Assembly that rewrote the Constitution that was part of Chavez's ascent to the presidency. He served in the Chamber of Deputies, which was eliminated when the legislature became the unicameral National Assembly, in which he began serving in 2000. So he's there from the start in terms of um Venezuela's shift from a multi-party democracy to one which you could say um is technically uh a democracy, but we know how the most recent elections in that country have gone. Uh after six years in office, he was designated as the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and he became vice president in 2012 as Chavez's health began to deteriorate.

SPEAKER_03 7:34

Which is 13 years ago. 13 years ago is a long time to have a big impact as a president, especially in a one-party state. What's his track record since then? Have things improved, gone worse, stalemate?

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Almost immediately upon uh assuming power after Chavez's death, uh there was an election which Maduro won with a very slim margin in 2013. One of the first acts of his presidency was expelling US diplomats, calling them historical enemies and accusing them of poisoning Chavez. He labeled the domestic opposition fascists and that they were working to divide the country. Now, this man, again, very different to his predecessor, did not have the same charisma. The economy at this stage was collapsing, global oil prices were affecting revenue in uh Venezuela, and there were protests, uh rising number of protests on the streets, and number of protesters, 43 protesters, um, were killed uh in this particular incident. One of the problems facing Venezuela was the um over-reliance on the oil industry, other infrastructure and other um economic sort of uh sources of revenue were neglected. And once oil prices started to fall, the country struggled to uh continue to support the social uh programs that had been one of the bedrocks of Chavez's support up until that point, and again, Maduro's support.

SPEAKER_03 8:58

And just confirming, because it it is it is all about the oil, those extractions, the entire industry was under state control by then.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

It was under state control since then, and I think uh historically, probably since Chavez's uh ascendance to power, not enough investment in infrastructure.

SPEAKER_03 9:16

So uh it's hard to extract as well, that's what all the experts say. It's not like it's not your own.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

It requires a lot of refining. The money required was not spent uh to maintain these facilities. So they're not optimizing um the asset that they have, that natural asset that they had. So as a result, the ideologically driven nationalization of industries such as electricity and steel contributed along with the um collapse in oil prices to a massive um ballooning of inflation in the country, probably some of the highest levels in the world at that point. Uh import capability shrank, shortages of staples um on the shelves, uh, things such as toilet paper, milk, and flour and medicines, and these became more and more widespread. Um, this obviously led to rising levels of discontent, but uh economically they were stuck in a cycle that they had no real control over.

SPEAKER_03 10:05

Is this the great economic crisis um people are talking about? Because both guests that we will be hearing from in a second referred to this really difficult.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

There have been two specific dips. Uh one of those was um after his immediately after his ascension to power, and then there was another one, I think a COVID-related, but this was a global contraction that affected them as well. The response of the Maduro government after this initial um oil shock was uh increasing authoritarianism. So facing increasing opposition and plummeting popularity, Maduro established a pro-government constituent assembly in 2017 to neutralize the legislature, which was controlled by the opposition at that point. And uh further protests were met with a with a str a stronger and more bloody crackdown, and um more than 100 people were killed in protests against the regime. 30 million people in Venezuela, the majority of them facing shortages of essentials, and oil production continued to drop. In 2018, there was another election, Maduro was declared the winner unopposed, but 45 countries, including the US, did not recognize him or his presidency or his legitimacy.

SPEAKER_03 11:16

I remember that. That is actually last time I consciously remember seeing Venezuela on the news in the West over a matter of weeks because there was rioting and um there was pressure from abroad, definitely. However, then there was five, six years of silence, really.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

So, I mean, he jailed opposition leaders, forced others into exile. That was when I suppose his uh unchallenged grip on power was um established. Then, of course, we had that sort of strange spasm in time with uh the global shutdown of coron the coronavirus and the most recent elections in 2024. He was chosen as the winner. Not many countries outside of Venezuela uh recognize the legitimacy of this election. Most countries see it as non-transparent. Mass protests followed these as well, again met with another harsh crackdown. So uh basically, this takes us up to late 2024, into 2025. We've talked about the escalating uh tensions between the US and uh Venezuela. This is a country which is suffering under sanctions. The US is um leveraging as much sort of military pressure as they can, attacking who they claim to be um members of the drug cartel, those that, you know, states-sponsored drug cartel elements um off the Venezuelan coast. And this spiked, I suppose, or came to a head with the extraordinary events uh that we witnessed very recently in Venezuela.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

And I just mentioned the 18 election. I remember seeing a lot about that on the news. However, the 24 election was maybe a headline or two. That was it. If it weren't for the Trump administration, we wouldn't be having this conversation today.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

Not at all, not at all. Uh I don't think that um any other administration would have carried out such an audacious and yeah unprecedented act. So this is uh again something that will be interesting to talk about and consider what the future may hold.

SPEAKER_03 13:19

And we've seen it all on the news. It was spectacular without taking a side here, straight out of a Hollywood film. And let's find out from someone who was there, someone in Caracas, and I'm talking about uh Dr. Thomas Schaumberg, he's the director of the Goethe Institute in Caracas on the ground, and he took some time to speak to us, not only about the United and how it unfolded, but also more about the political system and the structure underneath Maduro and why it's very unlikely that things will change.

SPEAKER_04 13:50

America strikes. 2 a.m. local time, explosions in Venezuela's capital, Caracas, and nearby areas.

SPEAKER_06 14:01

We're going to run the country until such time.

SPEAKER_04 14:04

And stunningly revealing, Venezuela's dictator, Nicolas Maduro, had been captured by an elite army strike team known as Delta Force.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

We we all woke up uh with uh the explosions, we heard them, and the next morning we saw Caracas with the smoke. It was a big surprise for us all, but uh we also have to say that uh we've been expecting something uh because we have uh military presence in the region since August 25. But this scale of attack um uh was uh was something yeah overwhelmingly surprising.

SPEAKER_03 14:38

And uh you saw something coming. I've heard rumors of you could almost see the American ships in the distance on the ocean. Is that what it was like? Or is it a bit exaggerated?

SPEAKER_00 14:46

At about 2 a.m. Um it felt like hell would come. Colleagues called me and uh said that the the kids they just woke up and they didn't know what happened. Another friend uh lived close to a um to an electric facility which got bombed. Um I was uh out two hours before it happened, and uh actually right there uh exploded a bomb on the on the satellite station the next morning at like about five, six in the in the morning. You still saw the smoke all uh in different places of the city. And then uh in social media we saw the the the videos coming in from different sides with the helicopters leaving the city and um uh yeah during a couple of hours and then afterwards until three days, several parts of the city stayed dark because um the electricity infrastructure was um was affected by the attack.

SPEAKER_03 15:43

So and I assume you're not used to that either. You've worked in other countries in uh Uruguay before, you're from Germany originally, but you're not used to bombing in the middle of the night.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

No, like bombing was a new experience.

SPEAKER_03 15:55

Are you feeling? Are you okay? Can you sleep now at night? Or is are people worried?

SPEAKER_00 15:59

I'm I'm fine. I'm fine right now. Also, my team is. I mean, we all assumed um that uh that civilians are not the target of a possible attack. And this is what's act what actually happened. I mean, military infrastructure and crucial infrastructure for communication and electricity got affected. But um the the latest numbers they call also uh up to 100 um uh victims. Most of them are soldiers and the famous 32 Cuban uh bodyguards of of Maduro, but uh but still there are civilian uh victims. Um and in this moment, when you just hear bombs around you, you don't think of uh that you're not the target, you're just uh you're just afraid. And we simply didn't know what would happen next. I mean, I uh me too, me included, I went to the supermarket and stayed there like for four hours in order to buy a package of animals because um everyone was was nervous. That was Saturday and Sunday, and then on Monday everything got back quite normal to normality, uh, which is um which is logical because uh Monday the people have to go to work. I mean, we don't have the luxury here to stay at home um because the people they have to have to earn a living. And the people were not celebrating. I mean, what what we saw all over the world were uh the diaspora Venezuelans in the city with with big groups of Venezuelan migrants, like for example, Buenos Aires, Madrid, um Miami or Santiago. Here uh the overwhelming emotion was uncertainty and skepticism, um, because uh you don't know what's what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03 17:45

Yeah, I had the same impression that um the Western media mainly focused on the diasporas, um, even here in Australia, where very, very small Venezuelan uh community, but uh nevertheless they were excited but also very nervous and then uh worried about their family members uh back in the country. Now um I'm talking to you on a on a quite okay internet connection. You've got the lights on, so are things back to normal?

SPEAKER_00 18:09

I have to say I live in a quite privileged area here in uh in Caracas, and our uh institute has all the crucial infrastructure to be prepared in situations like that. I mean, we have a generator outside, which normally, in normal situations, um uh actually is activated like three times, three or four times a week. Uh we have four stable internet connections and a server which is which is highly protected simply due to the experience we faced in the last uh in the last years. So we simply have to live with that. Also, our private housings uh they have their private um uh batteries or small generators um if you can afford it. And others have lived and still live with uh time frames where they have uh electricity, but now everything is quite normal. But um let me tell you something about the silence. Um, let's not forget that um we have still the same repressive uh government uh here in charge like we had before. We only cut off the hat. But the first decree, the new president, uh acting president Desi Rodriguez, issued in order to find people whose support in some kind the US attack. Your political opinion is still a risk. Why why risk it? Even though I would say that many people were and are happy that um that Maduro is gone.

SPEAKER_03 19:39

To confirm lights are back on, food is available in the stores, there's no chaos or people have gone back to work. There's still uncertainty. However, the the government is still firmly in charge. Uh, there's no question of who's in power at the moment, and people just waiting for things to happen, I guess. And I assume Venezuelans watch the news uh all day. But what is Media access like how much information can you get in the country uh through conventional media? Is that controlled by the state? Is there any any alternative media or do you have to go on social media and is that is that restricted?

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Uh there's no free press in in Venezuela, and the states television, the print press, and also the radio stations, they they are controlled by the government and spread their narrative. You can imagine that official narrative is totally different from uh what what we saw in social media or what we see all all over the world. I mean, from the official uh point of view, this is an attack of Venezuelan sovereignty. Well, it was, uh, but uh but but they kidnapped the the president, which is also true, but the whole rhetoric is is much more um yeah, much much more aggressive and no undertone of uh of the relief of having the dictator out of the country. That means that, yeah, social media, uh especially Instagram and WhatsApp, are the main information source for the people and also the contact with the diaspora because the government, I mean, if you switch on the official TV, you will always see uh the how they condemned harshly and strictly what happened. But, and that's the important thing uh in terms of transition, they showed also their willingness to cooperate with the US because they simply know that their political survival right now depends on how they cooperate with Washington.

SPEAKER_03 21:24

And not to be kidnapped next.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

And not to be kidnapped, or even worse. I mean, the Delcy Rodriguez, acting president right now, she was Maduro's vice president and also responsible for the whole petroleum sector here in the country. So one of the key figures with decades of political experience. And uh, she was there from the first moment when Chavez came here. So this is continuity, which was highly important also to calm the situation, because knowing that the old elites are still um controlling the different security um uh uh uh apparates and also the famous colectivos, so the armed gangs, which are traditionally uh key figures for the government, they are controlled right now. And this is like um an important thing to um uh to all of us. So uh there's no chaos on the streets because the old uh elite is still controlling this uh this security infrastructure.

SPEAKER_03 22:28

Which is uh the usual challenge around American or any intervention that if a government is suddenly removed, which is what this podcast is about, what happens next? And usually America doesn't have a long-term plan. This one is a very odd one, and there's historians and political analysts around the world trying to put this into some sort of pigeonhole. No one's been successful thus far. And um, yes, we are called putsch cast. Was it a putsch? Probably not, but it was a very strange political event that just happened, and I think we can't foresee yet what is about to happen. What do you think could happen? And what you just mentioned, how does she message this to her own people? So, on the one hand, side, the devil is in Washington, what have they just done? We want Maduro back. On the other hand, Trump tells the whole world we're now running this country, and he confirmed just recently that for possibly years to come, um, the US will be in charge of Venezuela. Question is that just made up because there's literally no boots on the ground. How does she then collaborate with the Americans? Because they're scared of what's about to happen, but simultaneously telling our own people this is the the enemy number one for us.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

I would not want to be in her position right now because she has to uh she has to address very different uh target groups in her communication right now because you have the own military, which is the main power base for her, you have the US who expect her to collaborate, uh, and you have the people on the streets who basically don't want her, uh, but also the party, the socialist party, who expect her to be a strong leader. Now, I I think it's a very difficult situation for her right now to manage. And uh let me tell you that the uh the the statement we run the country was irritating for all of us, not only for the government supporters, but for all of us because um uh it's it's it's it's a heavy statement. And then, but if if we then see what Rubio said uh yesterday and today, and then Trump got a bit more specific in order to uh make clear that uh this is part of the Western and US controlled hemisphere. We don't want to have the other uh uh global players uh here with influence in the country, like Russia, China, or or or Iran. And we want American uh firms back here in um in Venezuela like it was before. And the money generated by this activity for reconstructing the infrastructure here so that US firms can operate freely and uh and economically profiting. That is what they say, no, and they expect this government in this first period to collaborate, and the first signals are positive with that. They did not reject the reopening of the of the US embassy here in in Caracas, and uh they they are free political prisoners from the uh uh from from the prisons and from the famous torture center, the Elicoide. Uh it's said to be closed. So there are some signals that show that this government with Delcy Rodriguez is willing to collaborate and open some kind of doors, but we cannot foresee at this moment where these doors will lead.

SPEAKER_03 25:42

Yeah, so the Americans are clearly marking their territory there. Vladimir Putin is um, especially on social media, um shown as a loser in all this. Um so uh other foreign leaders? And you mentioned a 30 or odd Cuban bodyguards. So, how much other foreign presence is there in Venezuela and sort of who are the close collaborators with the current regime?

SPEAKER_00 26:03

Cuba is one of the main partners. We have a huge social exchange program with uh Cuban doctors and uh the cultural uh sector, but the main partners um are uh Russia, China, Iran, Turkey is an important player, and uh the Caribbean islands, which are governed by uh left uh left governments, not all of them, but the left government um uh islands they are with uh Pedro. Um Colombia re-established its relations with Venezuela, and there are some kind of uh uh constructive collaboration with uh with Lula in Brazil, but uh we have all the countries that the US do not like on the list of the uh supporters of uh of this government.

SPEAKER_03 26:56

You mentioned Turkey there. I find that fascinating because apparently last year there were discussions of Turkey offering Maduro exile, and he refused. That was a story I just uh I think we have a lot to learn in the future as well of what actually happened in the background there.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

People say that Otto Delhi played a role in this uh in these negotiations um since since April last year, in order to uh see what are the chances, the opportunities for uh a transition or for a government uh for a Madurismo without Maduro. And uh she was always one of this um one of the names circulating in these constellations, so it's not that kind of surprise that now the vice president, well, constitutionally it's not a surprise, but also politically it's not a surprise that she's there right now.

SPEAKER_03 27:46

That's a that's a that's a great theory. Let's explore it a bit. So, so who is Delcy Rodriguez? So, what do we know about her? And is she a very ambitious politician? Could she be the future ongoing leader? And is she the first female leader of uh Venezuela?

SPEAKER_00 28:00

De facto she is the leader of Venezuela because she got sworn in, because in absence of the president, the vice president um uh gets the role and um is now the acting president. She uh has been one of the key figures of Chavismo and Madurismo from the first hour. Um, she and her brother. Her brother uh Jorge Rodriguez is the president of the National Assembly, so the parliament. And then we have the interior minister minister, um Diosado Cabello. He is the person who most people are really afraid of because he controls the secret service and the colectivos, the skangs, and also the most important security uh infrastructure. And we have the defense minister uh Padrino. These four people were the most powerful, and with them, a couple of families who distributed the power and uh and and ruled the country for the last decade. Now Maduro is gone, and Maduro was able to maintain um a quite important equilibrium between these different forces. And it will be interesting to see if Delcy Rodriguez is able to do the same. She and her brother together, there she has quite good chances until the security forces are backing her.

SPEAKER_03 29:22

A vice president that becomes president due to unforeseen circumstances, which reminds me of how Maduro got to power to begin with.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Well, Maduro got to power and um and Chavez announced him to be his successor, which then happened, and his rival is I just mentioned Diostado Cabello. So during all this time, there was this rivalry between uh Diostado and Maduro, which definitely also um maintained this fragile and fragmented system, which is Chavismo. Now, Chavismo, the socialist movement is uh which which is running the country for 1999, is 2027 years, 26 years, uh, is not a homogeneous bloc. It's uh it's a fragmented group of wealthy and influential uh families and uh and and and gangs and military, uh different military groups, uh connections with uh with with drug trafficking, which cannot be eroded just because you cut off the hat.

SPEAKER_03 30:26

Everyone have also read a statistic that Venezuela has one of the largest per capita number of generals as well. Apparently there's there's almost more chiefs than Indians uh in Venezuela and everyone's back.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

Because it means that you that nobody can gain enough power to get uh uh to get dangerous for the leaders, except for Delcy Rodriguez. Except for Delcy Rodriguez, yeah, which is which which leads us to Delcy Rodriguez. Um, yeah, I mean she had several key roles in uh the last governments, beginning with Chavez. Uh she was also uh foreign minister, if I'm not uh not wrong. The last time she was vice minister and responsible also for the hydrocarbons, which is the most important um uh pillar of the of the Venezuelan uh economy, and she is quite respected internationally because uh she she is an experienced diplomat.

SPEAKER_03 31:17

So, just to confirm, in you know, other countries you have political parties and they compete for the voters' you know support, and then eventually they'll form a government, i.e. presidents. So what's it like? You mentioned Chavismo. Is that a party that does that? And then there are small opposition parties, or is this a movement with many smaller parties that do it, or is there a party infrastructure? What's the political system like?

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Well, we have a lot of political parties actually here. Um, and uh Chavismo is the gathering of the socialist unique uh unit team party and a couple of other um other parties who join this big movement who uh who say that they started the Bolivarian revolution after the election of Hugo Chavez. That's where the name is coming from. And then we have uh several parties of the opposition, but the opposition is very fragmented and divided because there are some oppositional parties who, for example, decided to candidate um by the last during the last elections, and others who decided not to do so because they said the political uh system here is too uh authoritarian and progressive, uh, so we cannot candidate. No, so that is the first um uh divisive um moment in the opposition uh for how far are you collaborating with the system? And then you have the National Assembly with uh oppositional um members of parliament, but uh other groups of the opposition would say that they are traders because they candidated. So you have a very fragmented um uh opposition, and the only moment when they succeeded together behind one key figure was um uh the 20 the July 24 elections with Maria Corina uh Machado, who could not run uh for political reasons, but um uh as far as as we know, her candidate, the opposition candidate uh Edmundo Gonzalez won the election and nothing happened then because uh the official uh numbers said that Maduro won. And it was quite obvious that something was wrong with the figures because Maria Corina and the opposition they succeeded to get the app dust. So the the official results, so the results that coming that's they're coming out of the voting machines. Yeah, this explains most of the important figures of the opposition are out of the country, as is Maria Corina, who left the country uh last year.

SPEAKER_03 33:59

And uh she's the one that most people know because of the Nobel Prize she um she won. Is Trump right then when he says uh there's not enough support and trust for the opposition because it is so fragmented and just dysfunctional?

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Well, in terms of Maria Corina, he did not say that she didn't have this support, he said he she doesn't have the respect and he means she doesn't have the power. I think um most of the people are uh in Venezuela and outside are again government, but that doesn't mean that that I that they are unified enough to offer a real um alternative uh in terms of resources and personnel to uh run the country right now. And if I think Maria Corina here right now, she does not have the power about security infrastructure, she does not have the power about the bank accounts. It would be really, really difficult for her to uh to run the country under this actual circumstances, maybe and hopefully in a couple of months, when we stabilize the situation here and we have really free uh elections, the oppositional forces can step in and um and and and and do what we all also want, make the Venezuelans decide for the Venezuela for the destiny of Venezuela. But right now, I I I don't see uh how that would be possible in this moment, in this very moment.

SPEAKER_03 35:31

Yeah, let's let's talk about one word we haven't touched on, which I think is crucial to this whole system, which is uh corruption. And you just mentioned that, you just explained how complex it is. And we've talked about the generals before, and everyone's got their hand in one pie, and and everyone's their cut, and uh anyone who may not be corrupted is outside of the country. How does this for you as a average citizen on the street play out? And you feel corruption in your daily life? Is that something that you're aware of?

SPEAKER_00 36:00

I mean, what you see is a very deep political, social, and economic crisis all over the country, and I think a side effect is compared because people have to survive somehow. What you really see is also um the fact that a quarter of the population left the country. I mean, especially between 2016 and 2022, which were the worst moments of political protest, repression, criminality, hyperinflation, and exploding poverty rates. Oh, almost everyone uh has a family member or friend or ex-colleague who left the country, even though the supply situation right now is much better and medicine is available again, the prices of many products are unaffordable for many Venezuelans. Let's remember that we have 90% of the population who are poor, and 50% live in extreme poverty. That are reasons for corruption and um and clan structural um systems. The horrible irony in that is that Venezuela was once the wealthiest country in the region in the 70s and in the 80s, and is now the less prosperous facing this multiple political, social, and economic crisis. And yeah, you can see this everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 37:25

I've heard those figures as well, but then Hugo Chavez, who was clearly very charismatic and very, very successful, at least in the early days, I would say. Um, you know, they his government for the first five to ten years always claimed that we really made a difference in people's lives. Like we lifted a majority of Venezuelans out of poverty um through our reforms, whatever they were, and that like in pre-fidel Cuba, yes, it was a wealthier country, but it was a much smaller margin of the population actually receiving that wealth. And I know it's it's very uh unequal now from what I what I hear. Like you said, you know, majority of people do live in poverty yet again. Is there a passion for that form of socialism still? What is the sentiment coming out of this? Like, do people believe in the concept and the idea and they just think Maduro hasn't got it right? Or do they just want hardcore US style Western capitalism? What's the sentiment on the street?

SPEAKER_00 38:18

I think if you talk with government supporters and they still exist, they would blame the US sanctions or the international sanctions for the whole crisis. Um which is uh not not true, and it is also not true to say that um that everything was right before, and then Chavez came and everything got worse. No, the situation is much more complex, and maybe you have to accept also uh some contradictions who go side by side. Yes, there were poor people before Chavez came and there was corruption, the power was in the hand also of a bipartitarian uh system, but um still you cannot um negate that uh right now the middle class and uh the the general wealth of the country got affected, and uh and especially um after the oil prices fall and the money uh right out, and there uh you could not finance anymore the social problems which led to this high migration uh numbers. And uh 25% of the country don't leave because everything is fine and because the social policy is working. I mean, you see that something had to be wrong. And the worst, worst moments, um, let's say 2017, 2018, 2019, when the supermarkets were empty, and even though you had money, you could not buy anything because there was not anything to buy. I think socialism also lost the the attraction, even though it's also true that the international sanctions and the blockade of the Sweden petroleum. And even worse, and you're not.

SPEAKER_03 40:02

We talked about the economic side a lot, but before you did mention the security services, and you also spoke about a torture center. I'm not sure the word that you use, but what's that like for people? So, do people just get arrested in the middle of the night and then dragged into torture cells? And how present, how oppressive is the regime?

SPEAKER_00 40:18

I think people they stopped talking about politics too much. Um also because it divided it divided the country, because in at the beginning Javas was a figure who separated families, you know, some uh and because someone was were supportive, other burden. And uh the repression started with the big protests, with the student protests. Um and uh right now, um what we have uh were the detentions. So people got uh yeah, people close to the opposition, um, or oppositional politicians, all their families, they got caught and uh are in several prisons. And this happened again in a bigger scale before and after the elections in 2024, after a period of tranquility, let's say. I mean, we when the situation economic situation got a bit better and the security criminality issues were uh weren't were much better. That was like during the pandemic and the the time afterwards, uh it was not necessary to be that repressive. But when um when the government saw that uh losing the power could be a real um a real option, they started to be quite repressive again. And we have uh hundreds of political um um prisoners right now, which are being freed in this very moment. And um right now people are afraid of, for example, having contents on their cell phones, which could bring them um close to positional um uh uh statements. And and that happened actually also after the elections when people left their phones at home because the police could stop you and then imprison you.

SPEAKER_03 42:10

So there's there's uh self-censorship happening there just to preserve your own um safety.

SPEAKER_00 42:15

And also self-censorship um uh by the the few really working journalists in the country, which also a lot of uh people left a lot, and that's a big problem uh with the information gap. A lot of people talk from outside of Venezuela because they're not very much people very much journalists left. They also self-the people who are here are kind of self-censoring themselves in order to not get uh into trouble.

SPEAKER_03 42:40

Which is why we're here at Puchkas to talk to you, Dr. Thomas Schaumburg, to have someone on the ground, not just talk from the outside about Venezuela, but actually someone who's there on the ground. Thank you again uh for your time. But so for context, so what what brings uh someone like you to Venezuela? What's your connection to the country?

SPEAKER_00 42:58

The Goethe Institute, I'm the director of the Goethe Institute, as I said, and the Goethe Institute is the cultural institute of the Federal Republic of Germany with the global reach. So we don't all do not only exist in Venezuela but in in like hundred countries. And our mission uh is uh to promote the German language abroad, to foster international cultural cooperation, and to convey a comprehensive view of Germany. And we've been present here in Venezuela for several decades and strengthen the German language through our courses, uh language courses, and to be cooperation with the stakeholders in the educational system, and have a very vast cultural program. We facilitate, for example, exchange between German artists and local uh and the local cultural scene in fields of film, dance, theater, and literature, and have also with the library information center that uh provides an up-to-date uh picture of Germany and uh offers information on studying, living and and working in Germany. Um, and yeah, it's now been three three years and a half um uh that uh my headquarter sent me here, and I'm quite happy and and very grateful to live and work with uh with Venezuelan people, despite the traumas and difficulties that that they they have been facing the last decades, never let them lose their hospitality, warmth, and willingness to help. And so for me it's a privilege to live and work here in Caracas.

SPEAKER_03 44:30

So, are you a soft diplomat?

SPEAKER_00 44:32

Yeah, I would say we are like one part of uh German cultural uh diplomacy landscape together with the political foundations and the German schools um and the and the academic exchange service. We are doing a lot um for building bridges between societies um and to keep uh doors open where maybe the political uh context would close them.

SPEAKER_03 45:00

And do you know how much longer you will be in the country? Will be will you be observing this and maybe we can talk to you again in the future?

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Yeah, I mean um my contract uh terminates in August this year. So I have half a year left. It's for it's a four four years mission.

SPEAKER_03 45:14

Thank you again for staying up late for us, and uh we'll stay in touch. And um all the best to your team as well on the ground. They're doing fantastic work uh promoting German culture and language.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

Yeah, and thank you for having me here.

SPEAKER_03 45:35

That was Dr. Thomas Schaumberg from the Goethe Institute in Caracas. That was a soft diplomat, as he calls himself as well. Have you heard of an institution like the Goethe Institute before?

SPEAKER_01 45:47

Soft power, very underrated, but very important in today's world. Places like the Goethe Institute, where Thomas works, uh, essential in building bridges culturally, linguistically between countries, and also a good offset against the nuts and bolts and zero sum game of uh pure economics and trade.

SPEAKER_03 46:06

Yes, David, and not every Western country has an institution like that. And if we've just watched the latest events coming out of Washington where Trump cut again funding for another 66 institutions, some of them similar to that, doing development work also in the cultural space in developing countries, it shows that there is more than just uh cold, hard diplomacy. There are avenues for communicating between countries that that may not have the best relationship as Venezuela and the US do right now.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

That's right. And every move that Trump makes to cut these and the funding um if you look at them in isolation would not be significant. But the message that it is sending that you are shutting down these channels of soft power between countries is and the dialogue that they uh allow you to have um says something significant about their worldview and what they value.

SPEAKER_03 47:00

We talked about the uh escalation of tensions between two countries. Watching media in recent months, I had an impression that uh Venezuela is almost um Iraq equivalent in South America to the dying days of Saddam. I have a very different impression now after listening to Thomas, who can clearly speak freely and openly about what's happening on the street. Did you have the same impression?

SPEAKER_01 47:27

That's right. In a number of these countries, and we're using the Middle East, I think, as an example, um, someone who can talk about the significant challenges facing the regime, how they have been fundamentally undermined, and also uh the response that they may or may not have taken is something that you will not hear, and a number of people, dissidents or uh even observers in other countries are not able to share freely uh in the way that he did. And again, because this is a person who is openly acknowledging that they are part of a cultural institute, they have a position of responsibility. Um this is someone who doesn't fear uh repercussions or reprisals based on the information that he's providing about the weaknesses of the regime that he's living under.

SPEAKER_03 48:10

And I wonder if we could have that very same interview with someone in Putin's Russia today. Absolutely not. Which is obviously not a friend of Trump's, but it's someone that he doesn't think worthy of capturing in the middle of the night from the Red Square.

SPEAKER_02 48:30

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SPEAKER_03 49:04

You listen to Putschcast, and today we have somewhat of a special episode on Venezuela. We've just heard from Dr. Thomas Schaumberg in Caracas and who was there that night when bombs went off. First time for him as well. Things seem to have calmed down since then, but now let's hear from someone on the ground who's not in Caracas, but in the east of the country. And like us, he's a fellow Australian.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

He is. So an expert who's been living there on and off uh for um a number of years, uh, Venezuelan wife. He'll introduce himself. Uh he has a very different take on life in Venezuela compared to what we see in the traditional media or the the vision and the um, I suppose what you might get from experts in terms of what life is like on a daily basis in that country.

SPEAKER_06 49:50

My name is Philip Campbell. In 2009, I met a girl online who is now my wife. In 2010, I came back and married that girl and lived here in Venezuela for six months before we started the process uh for us to go live in Australia. Then in 2024, we moved back to Venezuela. We'd taken advantage of during the crisis to buy ourselves a family home. However, I still go back and forth a bit because I'm I don't have permanent residency as yet. I'm on a family transient visa. Surely I'll be applying for permanent residency. So I actually spent six months back in Australia last year, and I just returned in November 2025.

SPEAKER_03 50:31

Thanks for joining us on Putschcast today, Phil, and making the time uh over in Venezuela. Where exactly are you located in Venezuela?

SPEAKER_06 50:38

So we live in Maturin, in the state of Monaga, Monagas, on the eastern side of Venezuela, where all the all the petroleum gas is a big petroleum gas area here.

SPEAKER_03 50:49

And uh was the 3rd of January where history was made in Venezuela. The president disappeared overnight. Uh everyone around the world watched it on the news. Where were you that night?

SPEAKER_06 51:00

I was here asleep in my bed. My wife got a phone call early in the morning. My wife actually has a nephew in the National Guard, so as part as part of the army. My wife got a call at two to about 2:30 in the morning saying, Um, Auntie, we're under attack. Caracas has been bombed. So pretty pretty scary stuff because my wife's obviously quite religious being Latino. She was going to go pray with her mother. She said, I'm gonna go pray with, she woke me up and said, Caracas has been bombed uh to make my son breakfast, and she was gonna go pray with her mother. And I was I was disoriented, I didn't understand what she's saying, it didn't sink in, you know? And then like she said it again, obviously, it was in Spanish, and it's like Caracas has been bombed. I was like, holy shit, pretty scary when you wake up, yeah, Caracas is being bombed, you know?

SPEAKER_03 51:42

Because tensions in the media had said tensions have been building for a long time, but I think tensions have been building one way from America towards Venezuela. Or did you living living in Venezuela, did you have the feeling that the Venezuelan government was threatening America?

SPEAKER_06 51:57

No, not at all. No, quite the opposite.

SPEAKER_03 52:00

Just before we spoke to someone uh who was in Caracas that night, and he said everyone knew something was coming, but we didn't expect what actually happened. So were you the same? Did you have a feeling that there was tension and maybe military interventions by the Americans?

SPEAKER_06 52:16

We don't know. I was I was trying to monitor it fairly closely. For a while there was I started to believe that Trump was full of shit and he wouldn't do anything for most of it. My wife and her family had an overwhelming feeling that something was coming, maybe. Yeah, they they they pretty much did. They knew something was coming.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

How do you monitor the unfolding events? Do you have sort of access to all of the same news resources, etc., that we have? And I suppose how was it presented in the Venezuelan media as well, that build-up and that escalation?

SPEAKER_06 52:44

I speak obviously, you know, Spanish and English, so I can I think of the Spanish news as well. I follow a lot of Spanish, um, different two who are more left-leaning and more right leaning, and even from Colombia. So I I much like you do anyway, you know, I take the both extremes and I sort of find the truth in the middle. Funnily enough, I can even watch Sky News from Australia here. So I listen to their rubbish, but it does it gives me a heads up as to what crazy like the rhetoric that's coming out of that camp.

SPEAKER_01 53:14

Because I suppose all we hear about in Venezuela is the negatives. We're talking about uh an economy that has collapsed, we're talking about a country which is riddled with corruption, um, with infrastructure that doesn't work, uh, with bare necessities, um, out of reach of lots of people, high unemployment, etc. How accurate is this portrayal that we get of Venezuela um for you, for someone who's been in and out and obviously has deep connections to people who live there and have lived there a long time?

SPEAKER_06 53:42

I mean, I'm an Australian citizen. My wife's an Australian citizen. We could all go live in Australia if we want, we'd prefer to live here. So if that doesn't tell you enough, a lot of these people are saying they come they can't come back and are waiting for them to remove Maduro. I think from 2020 onwards, anyone could have come back here. And it's very safe here, I can tell you that. It's safe and it was safer now in these last couple of years that I've been here than it was when I was coming in here in you know, 2010, 11, 12. Um I think with the crisis, a lot of the criminals left. There was a big change in the mind shift. It's a very interesting place, Venezuela. And and it was the people themselves that got themselves out of the crisis. It wasn't the government at all. The government, you know, they are corrupt, they're they didn't do shit. Um, the people they they changed their mindset and they said, look, if anyone's gonna help us, the people, and get us out of this shit, it's gonna be us. So there's a big shift in the mindset. So living over here, maybe it's not for everyone, but I had to accept some things you sacrifice, you miss out on, but you gain other things, you know. And for me, the things that I gain from here are the things that are truly important in life. The things that I that I miss out on aren't that big a deal to me, you know. There are failing systems and stuff like that. You couldn't say that. But can I honestly tell you, everyone here is despite it all, and that's what's impressive, everyone here is really happy. It's a really happy life.

SPEAKER_03 54:56

Um, Thomas that we spoke to earlier confirmed the same thing. So he said about five, six years ago it's probably the worst, and things actually have improved, healthcare's better, there's more food in the shops. What is happening right now? Maybe explain to us. Uh obviously, people were hoarding because they didn't know what was going to happen, but is the country now getting back to normal? Uh are the shops stacked with with goods, or what's it like right now after the intervention?

SPEAKER_06 55:20

I saw here in in my in Matarin, we didn't see too much hoarding over on my side, probably in Caracas there's a lot more. And I heard that over on the on the western side of the country there's a bit more. I have access to a lot of local social media, you know, TikTok and Instagram, they use a lot, and that's where you get a lot of information from in today's age. We all do. I saw I saw some reports of you know panic buying and stuff like that, but I really only saw it last for a day, a day and a half maximum, and then it sort of tithered out, you know. I'm not sure about the other side of the country, but for we I went shopping the next day and I could buy everything I wanted. And as I said, it's quite safe. And another thing with it being so safe, or I don't know what's gonna happen now, but it was so safe because I think because of the struggles and because of the poverty and and you know, the the corrupt government or what have you, because I'm not gonna I'm not gonna lie and say, Oh, it's all roses over here, there was no corrupt government or anything. A lot of the young kids that would have gone to the streets and robbed and killed and had nothing and grown up poor and just gone out and started robbing, they sort of got into this mindset where, well, if I can't beat them, join them. So the place is flooded with military, and but they're all kids, but they're all on side with the government, you know, you know what I mean. So you go to all these military checkpoints and you're done, and there's military everywhere. There's no petty crime, no one's robbing and stealing and shit like that and kidnapping because it's military voice. Yeah, you know what I mean? It's safe, it's very safe, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:36

Phil, you you are an Australian, you've been contacted by other media as well uh recently because of the events, yep. Which tells me that there aren't too many of you there in Venezuela. Is there an Australian community or another English-speaking expat community that you are linked to in any way or form?

SPEAKER_06 56:52

There's a few other Aussies over here. I there's at least one of I know of, actual Aussies. There's a few other English speakers I've seen online on social media and stuff. There's another Aussie guy over on the other side of the country who's got himself uh an Airbnb type setup over there. So far enough, me and another guy.

SPEAKER_03 57:09

Yeah, no, that's fair enough. Um you're probably close friends. Um no, we're not. I don't have any.

SPEAKER_06 57:14

He's on the other side of the country. Just reach out to me one day.

SPEAKER_03 57:17

Which brings us to um how we've come across you, which is your YouTube channel, Phil. So uh what's Phil doing is uh is the question that we should ask on YouTube in order to find your channel. Yeah, and tell us about your YouTube channel and how do the locals respond when you walk around with your camera and uh and what are the main topics that you cover?

SPEAKER_06 57:33

Topics I cover, man, it's just my life and what I'm doing over here, but slowly, slowly uh pushing the narrative more of as you said, you know, becoming an ambassador for Venezuela, showing how good it is. Um and and I I was on a mission to try and increase tourism, you know, and do my part for the country. Because if you love, like if I love the country so much as I say I do, then try and do something positive as well. And how how do the people react to me? Um I'm growing, I'm growing fairly quickly over here. Let's say that. So the more young people react very well, the majority of them react very well. However, even before this happened, I will say there are some very old school patriotic guys that would see me and be like, oh, Yankee, you know, that think that automatically become a Yankee and I'm here to infiltrate. Yeah, you know. Um is I'm here to infiltrate with my camera. I I have been detained a couple of times for filming. I don't know if there's a vlog on my channel where I've been detained for quite a long time. I actually got to the military base in Caracas to put it to the Una. Yeah. Spent the whole day there.

SPEAKER_03 58:29

Do you think you got treated differently because you're a Westerner?

SPEAKER_06 58:32

No, I don't know. I if I got treated differently, it'd be because I'm a Westerner that's married to a Venezuelan and have been for a long time. So they say he's he's a good guy, he's one of us.

SPEAKER_03 58:43

And they probably know your channel and they know that you are a spokesperson for the country.

SPEAKER_06 58:48

They didn't they didn't when they no, they didn't when they got me, they do now.

SPEAKER_01 58:51

One question I was going to ask about being detained, it wasn't an arduous process getting out once they kind of had you and you'd established who you were. It it it didn't take much for them to sort of let you go, and um there weren't any further repercussions or anything like that.

SPEAKER_06 59:06

No, the repercussions no, after it was done, it was done. My wife was furious, but the the day was a nightmare. Basically, what happened? We thought analyzer looking back now that maybe the police would have thought they could extort me. So I was picked up by some police officers in Caracas for just going around. I was filming in very touristy areas in the colonial parts of the city, close to someone we looked Bolivar's house. And I was going around filming and then I went and sat down for a little while. I was picked up by some police officers, and then I think once they got me, and this is what we sort of in hindsight, what we're sort of when we analyze it, we were thinking may have happened, because there are corrupt officials here, no doubt. But once they once they got they got me and they saw that I sort of knew what was going on, I'd been married to a Venezuelan for so long and they weren't going to be able to extort me. I think they didn't know what to do with me, so they they reported it to the next level to their boss, who reported to their boss, and they didn't know, so I went up the chain so much. That by the time that the Secret Service guys came to get me, they even admitted to it. We don't know why that they called you for they called us for such a simple thing. Just a uh a guy with a camera. But now that's been done, we have to follow protocol like that. So they took me to the military base. My wife, luckily, they went and picked her up later and and she came and signed me out. But yeah, it was a whole ordeal. Watch it's it's on my YouTube channel. You can watch it all on there. I I swing throughout the whole thing. I'll always have to go through it all. But yeah, it wasn't pleasant, man.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:29

But but good to learn that there's um bureaucracy in uh Venezuela as well. Once you detain someone, you've got to follow protocol, you can't just follow common sense and go again.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:37

Yeah, and then look, I had to sign these things that like I remember when I was in the in the military base, which I look, I'm not gonna lie, it was scary. When those guys, when the Secret Service boys came to get me and take me away from the police station I was at, and I didn't know where I was going, that was that was scary, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:52

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:52

But they were cool, they were cool with me. They were asking me about Australia, making jokes about kangaroos and stuff. They're doing their best to make me feel welcome, like not scared, to make sure I wasn't scared. And I had to turn over and say, listen, guys, this is too much now. I've done nothing wrong. If anything, I'm here. Anything I show on my channel is just to benefit the country. I said, This is getting through my setup. And basically they said, All right.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:10

Does Australia still have a representation in the country? Is there an embassy or a consulate at least? Only in Colombia. Okay, so you have to go and to neighboring country. We want to thank you for all your time. Um, Phil, but we do want to end up asking the question because no one's really digested what just happened yet. Uh, where do you see the future of the country in the next couple of months, but also long term?

SPEAKER_06 1:01:34

It's hard to say. Everyone's just watching or waiting. Apparently, Trump's gonna work with the same government that's in power. So, which sort of begs the question, then what was the whole show about? Because Maduro had offered and Maduro's not a saying, and we're not fans by any means. Don't get me wrong on this, but I I just call the truth. I try and see it as blast as I can because at the end of the day, it's not my country. Maduro, I saw it with my own eyes. He was saying, he was saying to Donald Trump in the United States, yeah, I'm happy, I'm ready to negotiate whenever he's want. Let's talk, let's talk about business, let's talk about this, let's do it, you know. So that tells me he was he's sort of still pushing all out war, like he wants to occupy fully. Otherwise, why did he go and kill the fisherman? And why was he sort of pushing, pushing for retaliation from Venezuela to justify an occupation? That's what it seems like. But then on the other hand, it looks like all right, everyone he's made it, he's made a deal now with the Venezuelans. Obviously, they can't just kick out the Venezuelans and take over, like they're saying they they they can. They just can't do that. The government here is too far entrenched as well. They rule the country, they're gonna have to work with them. So I don't know, it begs the question like what's it all about? What is gonna happen now? I don't know. It looks like everything's gonna go smooth. Is the lady in power gonna stay in power now? Who knows? Was there you know, politics are dirty? Is there someone behind? Is it all just a setup for this, for that to me? It's watching and waiting now.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:57

I think that's what we'll have to do. And again, thank you for your time, Phil. And uh what Phil's doing is the channel to look up to find out what it's like being detained for a day, but also how beautiful the country is, the markets, the food. You talk about all this stuff, and the sense of community.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:13

Yeah, yeah, just general life, everyday life. Well, it's because it's a country, it's a little it's like seldom spoken at a lot of people don't know about it. So you want to have a look, man, at life in Venezuela, jump on the channel, you know, take a look, guys.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:25

That was Phil Campbell from Venezuela, an Australian expert who who knows the country quite well, speaks Spanish fluently, and is married to a local. David, speaking to him, what moved you the most?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:38

I think his honest uh reflection about the mood of the country, uh accentuating those positive elements uh we're not privy to through traditional media and most of the representations of the country. Uh the fact that a number of the people who are committed to Venezuela succeeding, uh their voices are not heard. And we're not talking about people who are politicized necessarily, but people have a deep love and commitment to that country and the community of that country as well. So I found that interesting. And also um talking about his incident with the security forces, that he was, you could say, treated uh respectfully and kind kindly, despite the fact that it could look quite suspicious for a foreigner, and he established that there are not many expats, um, especially in his part of the country. I found that quite interesting as well. So if we're talking about the level of repression in that country and we have the collectivos on the streets ensuring that there is law and order, uh the fact that this man was detained, went through it sounded like a number of different levels of the security apparatus, was able to uh make his way out of that that system uh without any repercussions, uh says a lot, I think.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:47

I think what we learn on this podcast again here is that every dictatorship is different, where Westerners usually try to tart with the same brush and pigeonhole dictatorships.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:00

No one dictatorship, know them all.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:02

They are so different. And and we all think it's all horror, you know, you couldn't survive for a week there. But clearly someone like Phil proves that you adapt and you make it work, and there's good things almost everywhere on the planet.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:18

I think he's uh championing the spirit of the people in that country as well. And again, in those types of dictatorships, we think that it is just a seething bed of repressed sort of political angst. People are just waiting uh for a system to be overthrown so they can, you know, revel in freedom or whatever that means, but it feels like the people there um have a different idea of the priorities in life.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:42

And I think this is what the the key question is here what does the future hold? We've learned about the new president Delcy Rodriguez. We've learned she's very skilled, she's experienced, she knows what she's doing. And you know what? While the Americans may not have a long-term plan, I think they have this power transition in mind from day one. The question remains was she involved? Maybe she was, who knows? Historians will find out. But what comes next? And as we've learned in history, this can easily destabilize a country.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:12

It can. Can I first firstly begin with um external actors, namely the US, because uh recently, uh very recently, the Senate, US Senate voted to advance a resolution that would bar Trump from taking any further military action against Venezuela, Venezuela without congressional authorization. This included a number of Republican senators voting with the Democrats to make this the case. It's pretty clear that this extraordinary event is one that they well, the lawmakers in the US do not want to see replicated. They do not want to see um any additional boots on the ground, we might say. We get a lot of rhetoric out of Washington and almost contradictory depending on whether it's coming out of Trump or Rubio's mouth about what the US is going to do next in Venezuela. Uh, but we can, I think, quite clearly rule out any further military intervention in that country.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:03

And if Trump is good at something, it's setting the news agenda and controlling the narrative. This action, whatever we call it, I think do we agree it's not a putsch?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:13

Not at all. So the term we looked up, I think I mentioned it earlier in the episode, is extraterritorial abduction.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:20

Trump, by doing that, has send such a warning signal to anyone else in the region.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:26

He uh he openly said Colombia, you're next initially, but I think uh reading the news today, or was it last night, uh after a phone call with the Colombian president, that's off the table.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:36

But Cuba's on the list, and now he's moved far up north to look at Greenland once more.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:42

The thing about Cuba, which is interesting, they're heavily dependent on and in terms of energy on Venezuela. So if uh Trump, even I mean, both Rubio and Trump are agreed that they are going to exert some influence over how the oil industry in that country, uh, this could be one of the big sort of levers that they use to pressure Cuba, and who knows what comes next if they have that capacity to turn off the tap, so to speak. So that will be an interesting one to um follow in the next couple of months.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:14

I've learned a lot today, David.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:17

I've learned a massive amount about this country, and again, going beyond you could call it superficial, our understanding of the Western media's portrayal of Venezuela, what life is like for the people in it, and how it operates. So, um no, I feel uh far better informed now than I was 24 hours ago.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:39

And I hope you out there or listeners do the same. This is Pudgecast. Do you have any feedback for us? Send us an email, putcast at gmail.com. You can find us on your favourite socials, and please hit subscribe if you haven't done so. If you do know anyone who's got a similar interest, please let them know about Pudgecast. Yes, we're still small, but we're growing rapidly, and we need all the support out there to bring even better insights, more experts, and fascinating topics your way. Speaking of fascinating topics, we are going way back 500 years into history after this episode. What's on the command, David?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:18

We're talking to an expert from Vancouver about Thomas Munster, who was Martin Luther's nemesis, and uh we'll be digging into the peasant wars and his rather sticky end.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:31

He was a preacher who called for violence and died by the swords.