#12 Galilee - Jesus' Revolutionary Forerunner

John the Baptist was not just a prophet and religious firebrand; he was also a political revolutionary, according to the Bible. He took on the Roman client King Herod Antipas and called for more equality while challenging the status quo, immoral behaviour, and hypocritical religious leaders.

However, what was his relationship and connection to Jesus Christ? Was he merely the forerunner, or was he a direct competitor who had to die, with his severed head served on a silver platter, in preparation for the imminent Kingdom of God?

Returning Putschcast guest Garry Stevens from the History in the Bible podcast explains why John the Baptist is such a divisive figure. As always, he explains what the Bible actually says and whether there is any non-spiritual evidence for the "Dippers'" end-of-the-world preachings.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Putschcast. I'm your host, Oliver Heuter. Podcast, your revolutionary global podcast about riots, rebellions, coups, and even biblical figures. People who have made history, if they did, and put ideas out there that are still relevant today. And the man we're talking about today is John the Baptist. And the voice you're hearing is from James Bennett.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

And yes, I did the original one with our guest today, Gary, who is a font of knowledge on all biblical knowledge. And John the Baptist is a very interesting bloke. John the Baptist is the original revolutionary.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Me as a non-biblical scholar and atheist, I had a look at the arts and culture. I found out there's almost a John the Baptist movie every decade. There's music written about him. But again, for the real knowledge, the real historical context, let's talk to Gary Stevens.

SPEAKER_03 0:56

Glad to be back because last time I had a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

So did we. And before we went into the studio today, James asked me something. James said to me, Oliver, do you actually know who John the Baptist is? And I looked at him with big eyes and said, Well, I thought I did, but maybe after this podcast I'll have a very different understanding. And maybe that's where we start, because last time with Moses, my highlight of the podcast, Gary, was that you corrected many of the perceptions and uh understandings that I had as a declared atheist and uh someone who hasn't uh enjoyed as much Christian education. But also for all our listeners today, if you're wondering movie excerpts and a bit of music you might be hearing, that's not podcast music, that's from a 1953 film called Salome. And uh Salome is being played by Rita Hayworth. John the Baptist is being played by Alan Babel, who was uh in his first ever big screen role at the time, so don't be surprised. But quickly, let's just listen to what John the Baptist sounded like back then, 1953.

SPEAKER_08 2:00

King Herod and Queen Herodias are doomed, for they live in sin. They are not wed, but master, they are not under the law of Moses. Herod has broken the seventh commandment, he has taken another man's wife. And Herodias is equally guilty, for she lives in adultery. Scorns our God-given law. The hand of the Lord will fall upon the king and queen. They will suffer his wrath. But be calm, my friends. Righteousness shall rise like a mighty river, truth shall be clear as crystal. Repent, cease to do evil, learn to do good, relieve the oppressed, seek righteousness. For his love will be with you as a morning dew, and you shall blossom like a rose.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Gary, that's uh what John the Baptist sounded like back in the day. With a British accent, yes. Yes, with a British accent, also very uh British looking. And for me again, looking at it, it's like, oh, that's like a Jesus light version.

SPEAKER_03 3:13

This excerpt is all about John the Baptist's disapproval of the marriage of his sovereign Herod Antipas. Herod Antipas married his brother's ex-wife, Herodias. Now, there's lots of Herods around at this time. Herod Antipas happened to run the territories of Galilee, where Jesus worked and lived, and he ran a totally disconnected piece of territory called the Perea, where John the Baptist worked and lived. According to the Gospels, John the Baptist was killed by Herod because he disapproved of Herod's marriage. Now, a weird thing is in at least ancient Jewish law, there was the institution of leveret marriage. If a man's brother died, a man was expected, expected to take his wife's widow, to maintain the line. So a man marrying his brother's wife is not outrageous in those days. It was a common concept. But still, it seems John the Baptist objected to it, and Herod had him killed. At least according to some. Our sources for the life of John the Baptist are the four Gospels, the Book of Acts, and the Roman Jewish historian Josephus.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Josephus. Yes, I won that one because I learned that last time. What could you do biblical studies without Josephus? Impossible.

SPEAKER_03 4:36

You couldn't do biblical studies without Josephus. In the 19th century, virtually every household in Western Europe had a copy of Josephus. Because Josephus was the perfect intersection of classical studies, which were big in the nineteenth century, and the Bible. So he was very, very popular. He has a different take on John the Baptist compared to the Gospels. Let's put him in this setting. John the Baptist and Jesus were born months apart, according to the evidence of uh Luke. So they're almost exactly the same age. They lived middle of the first century AD, or CE as you want to call it. Both of them operated in the territory of Herod Antipas, outside of the Roman sub-province, would you call it? So they're almost exactly the same age. The Gospel of Luke says that Jesus and John the Baptist were related. It does not say they were cousins, it just says they were related. But only the Gospel of Luke says that. No other source mentions it. So it's almost certainly a fiction intended to relate to me. I've read so many, so many bits of what I call glurge about John the Baptist, talking about what good mates he and Jesus were. No. No. These people should actually read the Bible. John the Baptist and Jesus never met. They were not mates. Sorry, they did meet, but when John was carrying out a big revival meeting near the Dead Sea, Jesus shows up. According to most of the sources, John does not recognize Jesus, has no idea who he is. He's just another punter in the crowd, and the big baptism happens.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Let's just confirm once more, Jesus and John the Baptist lived at the same time. They lived roughly in the same geography, so to speak, and they had the same king, Herod, who was henchman of the of the Romans, or what was his uh how would we how would we call him? A client king. A client king. So Herod was a client king, and I assume it was a pagan society at that time, plus a Jewish community.

SPEAKER_03 6:45

Herod Antipas. And as I said, there's a lot of Herods running around. Was the son of Herod the Great, who was a Jew. Oh no, they were as Jewish as could be. Although the region of Galilee, where Jesus came from, was held in low esteem by all the good Jews in the little province of Judea, which is to the south of Galilee. The Galileans were viewed as rather rambunctious hicks, crass and crude in their ways. I don't know how that started, but they weren't viewed as you know the urban sophisticates of, say, Jerusalem.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Gary, I'm just like really interested what you said about John the Baptist like baptizing people. I mean it's just like my whole historical ignorance or religious ignorance, but like what was he baptizing them into?

SPEAKER_03 7:31

Like what religion? Ah. The whole word baptize used in the Gospels is a perennial source of confusion because by the time of the Gospels, baptism had become a theological rite. In ancient Judaism, uh a ritual dipping in water was quite common. And in fact there still are ritual water dipping rituals in Judaism. And the word they used for that in Greek was baptizo, which means to dip. So an ancient Jew, before John, before Jesus, could talk about baptism because he'd just gone down to his local bath on the Sabbath to be ritually purified by the water. But by the time the Gospels are written, baptize comes to have this theological import, which it did not have.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

So the the Christians have stolen that from the Jews, really? The and then taking it to another level?

SPEAKER_03 8:29

That's exactly what they did. They took it from the Jews and took it to another level.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

Cultural appropriation. Two thousand years ago, James.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

So when John the Baptist was doing it originally, the baptism wasn't to signify what it now signifies in Christianity. It was more just like a purification ritual.

SPEAKER_03 8:45

That's exactly what it was. And in fact, that's exactly what Josephus says it is. It is a ritual for the cleansing of the body. Josephus very specifically says John did not attempt to wash away sins. He did not dip you in the water to forgive sins, because only God can forgive sins. So it would have been blasphemous to say that a mere man could. Josephus actually goes out of his way to say John the Baptist was ritually cleansing people, not forgiving sins. But the Gospels turn that around. They say that John the Baptist was ritually washing for the removal of sins.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

We know the time, we know the time that both men, Jesus and John, and I think the reason why we're talking about John today is because the significance he has for Christianity and Jesus later on. And as I said, one day we'll talk about Jesus, but it's a bit too soon for Putchkast. We know the time, we know the place, so it's, you know, what I assume is mostly now Israel, the Palestinian territories. Uh was called Galilee. Back then, Judea was in the south. People were frowned upon who lived there at the time. And James just asked, what was he baptizing people into? So he was just practicing cleansing rituals. But was he not also a prophet? Isn't he known as a prophet? He certainly is.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

The New Testament and later Christianity considers him the last of the Old Testament prophets, and the link between the Old Testament of the Jews and the New Testament of Jesus. So he is important in that way. And initial Christians regarded him well, they called him the forerunner. One thing about the Gospels and their relationship to John the Baptist is that they are very, very wary of him. They don't really like him, and they're sort of scared because in some of the Gospel accounts it could easily be taken that Jesus was a follower of John who just went out on his own. And that is not an implication they want you to draw. The Gospel of John itself, in relation to John the Baptist, goes out of his way, in fact, to completely take over John the Baptist. Whereas the other Gospels just go, yeah, we're not sure about this Baptist guy. But we have to talk about him because it seems he was very popular and very well known. Okay, given Jesus dies round about the year thirty-five, first gospel written about a generation later, in 70, other gospels written another generation later, about the year 100, all the Gospels are mentioning John the Baptist, so he must have been very well known indeed in his time.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

For me, that is revolutionary, and I think that's why we're talking about him. So he was clearly a very significant figure in early Christianity. However, as the Gospels progressed, it seems like someone quite didn't agree with the competition between the two. They had an idea that he was stealing Jesus' thunder. Would you agree with that theory?

SPEAKER_03 11:51

I think John would have argued that Jesus was stealing his thunder. The Gospels are pretty clear that John preceded in time the mission of Jesus, and John the Baptist's mission terminated earlier than Jesus' mission. My own personal feeling is that John's mission ran out fairly quickly. It failed to maintain momentum, and the Jesus movement sort of rode on the back of that and was the one to survive. We know that there were many followers of John, it's said in both the Gospels and in Josephus. In the book of Acts, Paul is said to have met a follower of John the Baptist, and Paul says, Oh, yeah, you've been baptized by John the Baptist. Well, that's good, you know, that's good. But we got a better guy. And our guy is so much better, he's cosmic. So he converts the follower of John the Baptist into a follower of Jesus. And and also the Jesus movement managed to construct a movement to the pagans, thanks to largely Paul the Apostle. And that's what saved Christianity and I think made it blow up into a huge international movement. John the Baptist, as far as we know, never appealed to anyone except other Jews. And his movement was probably pretty much terminated by the fall of the temple around about the year seventy.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

Uh Gary, um I could I think the last time we spoke, I sort of told you about my background in the church and particularly like the apocalyptic tradition. I was just wondering with John, like one of the things I remember about him is that although he doesn't appear that much in the Bible and obviously he's in the Gospels, and I think it's Isaiah, he talks about the coming of Jesus or like the prediction. But I think one thing that sort of strikes me is that how he's got quite a legacy in some respects. You know, some people see him as like an apocalyptic leader, some people see him as like a one of the first people that argued maybe for like an equal society, I think, in some respects, with some of the things that we've said. Like what would his legacy be to like, say, current society or sort of like, you know, the the years after his death?

SPEAKER_03 14:05

His legacy, okay, if we go back to the New Testament, he is seen as John the forerunner of the cosmic figure Jesus. In early Christianity, he is seen as a model martyr and a model of asceticism. He comes to be associated with the monastic movements. In the medieval times, he comes to symbolize sort of a spiritual awakening, and he also gets attached to sort of mystical theologies. Jesus never really gets attached to mystical theologies, but John the Baptist, I mean the good thing about John the Baptist from a Christian point of view is that you can load a lot of stuff onto him without contradicting the main Christian narrative. So you can say John the Baptist was this, John the Baptist was that. Anything which your fellow Christians might not like attaching to Jesus, you can attach to John the Baptist. So it's been handy in that. During the Renaissance, John the Baptist moved to a more dramatic subject. Uh uh Caravaggio's painting of his head on a platter, a subject for psychological study. And in the Enlightenment, through to the Moran Age, John the Baptist has been the subject of historical study. But that's only been really quite recent, the past 200 years, which is quite recent.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

James, you mentioned the the apocalyptic touch that you remember from him. What exactly do you remember from from your childhood? And for the people who haven't listened to the previous episode, which I'm sure they will, what was that like? And and was that part of every Sunday's Mass, or when do you remember hearing about John the Baptist and his role?

SPEAKER_02 15:36

Well, it wasn't really mass, like I grew up in like a an evangelical tradition. So, you know, people that are familiar with the evangelical movement back in like the nineties and the early noughties, very much based around the year 2000. Something and probably Gary is familiar with this. I'm sure he is, but it's not mentioned in the Bible about Christians being sort of ascending into heaven. The rapture. I don't think it is mentioned in the Bible, but it's does not exist in the Bible. It does not exist. But that was that was a big thing that we talked about. Look, I I suppose John the Baptist, in terms of the evangelical tradition or whatever, I don't think he's he he didn't play that much of a role, but certainly in terms of I suppose just baptisms and stuff like that, his name was often invoked. John was the the precursor to Jesus. He was seen as like a good guy, and like you meant and m you mentioned like the uh his ascetic sort of like monastic lifestyle. I think it was the honey and locusts with John, is that correct? And the the hair shirts or whatever it is. So I mean he certainly had a like a a role when I was growing up, but he wasn't seen as like Central figure, an important figure, yeah. But it's certainly not pivotable, pivotal, no.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Now, Gary, when when I've researched John the Baptist with my limited knowledge, I always come across this caveman look. So almost every time he wears either fur or uh looks like a real rough guy, like you said, yeah. Where where Jesus, you know, has this this white linen and almost looks like a divine figure. How much do we actually know about John the Baptist and where does this come from? This look that that has been uh portrayed, that he's been portrayed in, like how much information is there on the character, on his persona, on his appearance?

SPEAKER_03 17:24

There isn't that much. His demeanour and attire is explicitly mentioned in one of the gospels. Camel hair, shirk, yeah, locusts and honey. A general wild style. Okay? So there is that evidence. About what he was saying, it's clear he espoused apocalyptic ideas. By that I mean he said that the world of the end is coming. God is going to come down and institute his kingly rule over the whole world. Now, these ideas have been uh floating around in Jewish intellectual thought for at least, at least 200, 250 years. John seems to have been the very first to actually construct an on the ground movement for them. I mean, we have a lot of documents espousing apocalyptic ideas, but we have no evidence apart from John, who seems to be the first, of any other person saying, Hi, I'm the Messiah, into the world's coming, follow me. No one says that.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Did he call himself did he call himself the Messiah?

SPEAKER_03 18:30

No. He explicitly calls himself the forerunner of one to come. But, but, but, but that may be just the gospel reworking. It may well have been the case that John did think he was the prophet of God's kingly rule and had no idea about some about someone else. What do you mean? What do you mean someone else? I'm the man. Because the Gospels have reworked the material to make John completely subordinate to Jesus. We will never know what the truth is. We will never know what John actually said or what his own followers believed, because it's all been blotted out by history.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Gary, he was like he he was predict or sort of like prophesized in the Old Testament though, wasn't he? It was Isaiah and I think Malachi as well. They talked about John the Baptist, or they or who they thought might be John the Baptist.

SPEAKER_03 19:24

Christians read lots of prophecies into the Old Testament. Now there has to be some sort of issue with this, because no Jew has actually converted to Christianity based on these supposed prophecies by Isaiah. So they're certainly not influencing one sect of people who read the Old Testament. The so-called prophecies can be applied to anyone. Part of the point of the Gospels is to go back into the Old Testament and take a look at passages and say, ah, look, these are prophecies of Jesus. Prophecies which until the Gospel writers did the analysis, no one had ever thought to consider prophecies. They were just semi-crazy texts. So yeah, you'll find Isaiah is quoted as prophesying Jesus. Whether Isaiah meant it or meant something gone by different, they were taken as prophecies.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

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SPEAKER_00 20:53

You're listening to a Putschcast, and you've got James and Oliver in a studio today, and we're speaking to Gary Stevens from History in the Bible, a podcast we highly recommend. And we're talking about John the Baptist today. John the Baptist, we've learned, lived around the same time as Jesus, lived in the same region as Jesus, and he is often seen as the forerunner. Now, Gary, I just wanted to ask. When I watched films, documentaries, he's always seen an early sect cult leader. And then he meets Jesus. There's a dove involved, I think. And then all of a sudden, John the Baptist says, Hang on, I'm now redundant. This is the man you should be following, paraphrasing. And he basically hands over his flock to this new actual Messiah. How much about this is in the Bible, or is this just me watching too many Hollywood films?

SPEAKER_03 21:45

Some of this is actually in the Bible. The first big event of Jesus' life when he's an adult is when Jesus turns up at one of John the Baptist's good old fashioned revival meetings. This is the very start of Jesus' ministry. John the Baptist, according to three of the Gospels, baptizes Jesus. But John the Baptist doesn't know who Jesus is. He's just another guy come down to a meeting. We're all having a good time. And according to three of the Gospels, you have the appearance of the Trinity in one of the rare times where each member of the Trinity manifests itself. So you have the Holy Spirit descends as a dove upon the Son Jesus, and the voice of God the Father appears saying, You are my son. And that is one of the rare appearances of all three persons of the Trinity in the New Testament. Now the Gospel of Luke, in some manuscripts, adds a few words to God saying, You are my son. Some of these manuscripts add, You are my son, today I have forgotten you. The early church gagged that. Oh, they hated that line because that implied that Jesus had only become divine upon his baptism. Whereas it was dogmatic Christianity that Jesus was divine from his conception. So in the three Synoptic Gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, John the Baptist baptises Jesus. In the Gospel of John, it doesn't say it's not clear. John does not explicitly baptize Jesus. But unlike the other gospels, John the Baptist says, Wow, I have seen the dove from heaven, and it remained on this guy, so this is the guy I've been waiting for. That's sort of like I said earlier.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

And confirming from what we've learned earlier, the baptism isn't really accepting another faith. It's simply a cleansing, Jewish cleansing ritual. It only later becomes this act where you join a Christian flock.

SPEAKER_03 23:57

In fact, this particular act of Jesus' baptism is probably where it all starts. Because the Holy Spirit descends on Jesus. So any follower of Jesus can also have the Holy Spirit descend on them.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

So we can we can pinpoint the start of Christianity to a very moment in the Bible. That could be it.

SPEAKER_03 24:16

This very moment in the Bible.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

Now let's let's learn again that apocalyptic thing that still bugs me a bit. So where where Jesus, you know, we learn about love and forgiveness. Every time I hear John the Baptist from James before as well, I hear the word apocalyptic at the end of days. Was he a very negative preacher? He was not a Messiah, but he was a preacher for sure. Did he have a very different take on life and humankind's future?

SPEAKER_03 24:39

John the Baptist was an out and out apocalypticist. He believed God was coming to run the planet. But really, more importantly, he'd get rid of the Romans, and the Jews would retake their rightful place amongst the the peoples of the world.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

There's our putsch element, by the way, and this is why we're talking about John the Baptist today.

SPEAKER_03 25:00

Yes. Yeah, one of the big elements of apocalypticism wasn't just the cosmic arrival of God. Although you would think that would be the number one concern. No. Really, the number one concern was getting rid of the Romans. And the Jews knew they couldn't get rid of the Romans just using swords and shields. They need some help from God. And of course, apocalypse, well, it means the end of the world, where the righteous will be saved, and in the standard view, that's going to be the Jews, and all the evil will be destroyed, in the standard view, that's going to be the Romans. There were many different theories as to what the apocalypse would look like, and how it would happen, and who would be there. One theory was there would be a divine Messiah, like Jesus, but that was only a minor theory. The most common theory is that there'd be two people. There would be a divine figure, who would be a particularly holy priest, and he would lead the, you know, God part and lead God's angels. But there would be a second figure, a king of the line of David, who would rule Israel. So there were lots of different views. But yes, John believed these views. Christianity later took them over and incorporated them into its own set of beliefs.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Beautifully, you just explained why we're talking about John the Baptist here today on Putchkast, because he had quite revolutionary thoughts. He was, as far as we know, the first apocalyptic preacher, and it has a very political agenda, i.e., get the Romans out of the Holy Land, so to speak. I'm referring back to my key source here, which is frowned upon by many, but uh the Salome movie from 1953. There's a scene that I'm gonna play to you now where the wife of King Herod Antipas goes to him and warns him, and he clearly ignores he's heard about him, but doesn't really take much notice, and his wife is very concerned about the the response in the population that his preachings could cause. And uh I'll just gonna hit play. One second. Why did you come? What is it you want?

SPEAKER_05 27:02

The Baptist is back, and this time you must silence him. He calls me an adulteress. No matter what is between us. He threatens the house of Herod. I want him destroyed.

SPEAKER_06 27:12

He is harmless. What he says is of no consequence.

SPEAKER_05 27:14

Many fill your prisons for saying less, yet you allow a madman to preach treason. You must put an end to him. Stop him. Stop him before you. I think I warn you. It must be his death, or it will be ours.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

It must be his death, or it will be ours. John the Baptist preaches treason. Gary, you're the expert. Is there any reference to this in the Bible?

SPEAKER_03 27:39

Yes, there is, but perhaps not in the way you think. Okay. The three Synoptic Gospels do say that John the Baptist criticized King Herod Antipas' marriage to his brother's ex-wife Herodias. But if we take a look at Mark, Mark says Herodias, yeah, she didn't like John, reason unspecified. That's important, reason unspecified. But Herod Antipass himself protects John because he likes John and he regards John as a holy man. So Herod Antipass is actually on John's side.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

Which is what the film implies.

SPEAKER_03 28:16

The film's got it dead right. That's unusual. That's really unusual.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

I wouldn't pick any other film but the most researched one from Hollywood.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

I'm just wondering, because like that was the thing that sort of came across to me that do you think Herod was scared of John the Baptist?

SPEAKER_04 28:32

Huh.

SPEAKER_03 28:33

Well, I'm gonna quote Josephus now, because if you can't rely on Josephus, who can you and I? Josephus is Herod who feared that the great influence John had over the masses might put them into his power and enable him to raise a rebellion, for they seemed ready to do anything that John the Baptist should advise. Yes, Herod Antipas does fear John, because he might stir up a rebellion.

SPEAKER_02 28:59

Would it be analogous to like do you remember when like Pontius Pilate in Jesus being crucified? It reminds me a lot of it, I have to say.

SPEAKER_03 29:07

The story of the trial of Jesus is extremely confused. There seemed to have been three separate trials before two separate people. It's not entirely clear by any means just what Jesus was charged with, who decided to execute him, and why. Best to leave out the trial of Jesus for the time being, because it's it's too murky a topic to get into.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Well, then let's get back to John the Baptist. And I've heard rumors there was a trial there too, and that he was put on trial, and I've got more cinematic evidence.

SPEAKER_06 29:41

You have been brought here to answer charges of treason. Who bears witness against me? People of Galilee. I see no one here of the people. You see my ministers who represent the people, they accuse you of arousing the people to overthrow the house of Hera.

SPEAKER_08 29:59

I do not speak for violence. Only evildoers must resort to force. You call for violence by denouncing the throne. I call upon the people to pay no tribute to iniquitous rulers. Then you would have another king in my place. Yes. One who would rule with godliness, with justice and mercy.

SPEAKER_07 30:20

You admit allegiance to someone other than his majesty? The one I acknowledge is above all kings on earth.

SPEAKER_00 30:28

Gary, the trial of John the Baptist. Did that happen according to the Bible?

SPEAKER_03 30:32

There's no trial mentioned in the Bible. There is an execution.

unknown 30:36

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 30:36

And that's it.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Because that part of the movie, that sort of reminded me of Jesus. Like it was almost identical. It came across like he's running a parallel show here to Jesus. But no evidence for that?

SPEAKER_03 30:47

No. And I suspect the producers of the movie were trying to construct that parallel, and they did so successfully. There was no trial, and just as a minor nitpick in that clip, Herod Antipas says that John the Baptist is stirring up trouble in Galilee. No, he's not. John the Baptist was stirring up trouble in what's called the Perea, which is the region next to the Dead Sea, which was the second territory of Herod Antipas, not Herod's main territory in Galilee, which is to the north, near the Sea of Galilee. John if John was stirring up trouble at all, it was in that region called the Perea, not in Galilee. In fact, there's no evidence he ever went to Galilee.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

Do you think, like, obviously, particularly back in that time, it seems like there was probably a fair, fair share of prophets or madmen or religious people. He does seem to have been, I guess, sort of singled out, do you think? Like he obviously had some power, because if he was just some guy that was shooting his mouth off, he probably wouldn't have attracted much attention. But he was obviously someone of some repute because in order to have the king's wife ask for his head, he must have been considered somewhat of a threat.

SPEAKER_03 32:00

He must have been, in some sense, rather rely on gospel evidence. I'm going to go back to Josephus. Josephus, in his long narratives, mentions many potential troublemakers and bandits in Judea. And there's a long history, some of whom wanted to overthrow the Romans. But Josephus is always very dismissive of these people. He says, Oh yeah, so and so came. He has one guy who he just knows as the Egyptian. Just the Egyptian, because his name is lost to Josephus, and says, Okay, the Egyptian came up and he did this. The Romans brought out a Calvary troop and whack. But with John the Baptist, he very specifically says John the Baptist was a good and righteous man who attracted a large following. He doesn't use that sort of description for any of the other wannabe insurgents, shall we say. So John the Baptist was doing something different. I think the taken in the Gospel is really due to the fact that John the Baptist was so big. Well, firstly, it had to be explained Jesus was not a follower of John the Baptist. It had to be explained to John the Baptist's remaining followers why they should join Jesus. So they had to take over a lot of the attributes of the Baptist in order to give Jesus' campaign a big fat bump. And they did it very successfully, if you think about it.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

Let's have a look at the society at the time. So there was obviously a court, there was a king, they were liaising closely with the Romans to protect their own privileges and stay in power. John the Baptist was obviously a commoner, I would say, just from the way he was dressed. He might have had a higher education somewhere because he would have been a a very good orator or have some sort of skill that made people follow him and why he became so famous. But what was life like?

SPEAKER_03 33:39

Well most people in Judea were dirt poor. They lived in caves, some of them. If you had a bit of leather out the front of your cave stretched out as an awning, you were lower middle class. John the Baptist does seem to have been upper middle class. If we accept the story of Luke and his birth, John the Baptist's father was a priest in service at the temple in Jerusalem. So that would make him at least upper middle class, I'd say, son of a priest. He would certainly have been above, you know, the standard level of impoverishment which was common in the Roman Empire. Look, it just wasn't a fun time to be around.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

When we talk about apocalyptic events, was that in the end something people were longing for or something they were afraid of, given the circumstances they lived under?

SPEAKER_03 34:24

Both. I mean, we're we're not entirely sure how widespread apocalyptic views were amongst the people. For all we know, these were views which were just passed around the upper classes. People who could read and write for a start. And that was only like probably three, four percent of the entire population. We don't know how much the common person thought about these things at all. We we just don't have the evidence. There is some vague evidence that the Essenes had apocalyptic views. It's a big historical we don't know.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

Which is okay. Not to always have the answers. We have learnt that there was no trial, but we also spill the beans on his ending the way he left our earth, which is the famous head on a silver platter. How did John the Baptist go from baptizing Jesus to losing his head? What happened there? What do we know?

SPEAKER_03 35:30

It seems that Herod Antipas' wife, Herodias, doesn't like John the Baptist. She persuades Herod Antipas to have him arrested against Herod Antipas' will. Hey, what are you gonna do? Happy wife, happy life, as the old saying goes. The story, which really does seem to be a folktale, is that Herodias has a daughter called Unknown, and the name is Unknown in the Gospels. Herodias sends the daughter in to do what seems to be some sort of erotic dance before her husband, Herod Antipas. Herodantipas does a typical folktale thing and makes a ridiculous promise to her. I'll give you whatever you want. Herodias' daughter, unnamed, says, I don't know what I want. Hey, mum, what do you think I should ask for? And Herodias, the mother, says, Herod John the Baptist. I never could stand that guy. So Herodias goes back to Herod Antipas and says, Yeah, I'll have the Baptist's head. And so it happens. It's a classic folk tale sort of thing. It's got all the elements, you know, man trapped by and impossible problems. But I mean Antipas didn't really oppose this guy in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Well, well, well. James, it turns out my film was right after all. Let's have a listen.

SPEAKER_05 36:48

One possible way to save the throne. You alone can accomplish it. You can persuade him. Dance point tonight.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

And there comes the dance of the seven veils, which brings us almost to the 20th century. But before we do that, the unnamed bothers me because all we ever hear and know is Salome. Where does the name Salome for the daughter, the dancer, come from, if not from the Bible, when when everything else seems to be pretty accurate? It's from Josephus. Of course. Of course. The answer is always Josephus. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 37:47

Yeah, the answer is always Josephus. Okay. Simple as that. Josephus says that Herodias had a daughter called Salome. But that's it. Josephus does not say that Salome was involved in the execution of John the Baptist. He merely says Herodias had a daughter called Salome. Combining that with the New Testament, you end up with the unnamed daughter becoming Salome. You can go mad disentangling ancient families.

unknown 38:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 38:15

Because they're all marrying each other, and suddenly the uncle is now the nephew and is the son-in-law.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

But King Herod Antipas is a man of his word. I'm learning that from the story because he offers half his kingdom, but instead Salome wants the head of the Baptists because her mother told her to do so, and he then goes through with it. He loses his head. I don't think there was a trial or anything that you said. It just happened at the time. Was there any response, resistance from his former followers, from anyone else? And where was Jesus at the time?

SPEAKER_03 38:45

Ah, from his followers? We hear nothing. No one has any records of what his followers thought about it. When Jesus hears that John the Baptist has been arrested, so obviously he has not been executed yet, he scarpes back to Galilee as fast as his little feet will carry him. And while Jesus is in Galilee going, uh John's been arrested, John sends messengers to Jesus asking Jesus, Are you the one to come? And in one of the Gospels, Jesus has a long passage about, ah, John the Baptist, what a guy, what a guy, sad he's been arrested. Yeah, he's the man, he's the forerunner, but I'm the one he's been waiting for. So sad John in prison, but I'm the one. And in most of the Gospels, Jesus does not start his actual ministry until John has been arrested. Now, you could interpret that as Jesus is John's successor. While my boss is momentarily detained in prison, I'll take over his job. The Gospel of John says, no, no, no, no, no, we can't have that interpretation, dear people. The Gospel of John has Jesus and John the Baptist preaching simultaneously. But the other Gospels, no, once John the Baptist is in prison, Jesus gets uh a bit scared, but eventually when when John is killed, then yeah, off Jesus goes, ministry full on, it's me now.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

Because otherwise you would have this clear succession line, right? So you go John the Baptist, Jesus, Peter, and Paul, and and so on in the Christian tradition. I found it fascinating. What did you know about that coincidence between John the Baptist and Jesus?

SPEAKER_02 40:17

No, I didn't know about that. I've I've only read this in the Gospels, so and I probably didn't read it that deeply, so I wasn't sure about it. I mean it like the connection between the two is pretty strong. Like Gary says, it does almost seem like indisposed, Jesus will take on his mantle. It seems like that.

SPEAKER_03 40:33

And yet the Gospels are very keen to deny that very fact. They really want you to know, and is especially the Gospel of John, that the connection is tenuous. The connection really is only that John the Baptist was independently sent by God to announce to the world the coming of Jesus. And don't you dare say that Jesus is a follower or carrying on John's work. How dare you say that? How dare you say that?

SPEAKER_02 40:57

But would it be true to say that without John the Baptist the Jesus story would be completely different? I don't know. Because it seemed like it was a catalyst for him to start his ministry.

SPEAKER_03 41:10

Yeah, thinking about it, given the importance of John the Baptist in the early part of his story, given that John the Baptist must have been a very significant figure in first century Judea, much more significant than than Jesus, I think, yeah, he must have been the catalyst. His death provided the vacuum into which Jesus stepped. Yeah, you could well be right. Without John the Baptist, we may not have had a Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 41:37

We learned a lot today about the life of John the Baptist. We are called Putchcast, and we are talking about revolutionaries, and I think the revolutionary element was here that he, like so many revolutionaries, died for his ideas in the end. That's what happened, isn't it? He was a preacher, he took on a mighty royal family, you know, a very autocratic system. He had a different idea of society, he was trying to win people over. He met someone along the way that might be better at this, better at the job than he is. However, he then died for his beliefs. Was there any chance for him to repent and withdrawing all my former comments and statements about the royal family and please let me go, including my people?

SPEAKER_03 42:16

I I suppose he could, given that at least one of the Gospels says that Herod was well disposed towards him. Yeah, I suppose John could have said, you know, now that I met Herodias, fine woman, great wife, proud addition to the family.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

I shouldn't have believed the yellow press.

SPEAKER_03 42:32

Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

And so let's look, and I've mentioned before the 20th century, so and the 19th century, in fact, is is there a rebirth for for his reputation? Because it all starts, as far as I know, with Oscar Wilde, you know, writing the writing the play, Salome, which then became huge around the turn of the century when Richard Strauss wrote the opera based on the play, which then has that famous musical piece about the Stance of the Seven Vales, which which was particularly that piece which was banned in many European opera houses. So it's me being an opera fan. But it was all about John the Baptist at the center of it, and and he was called Yokan Nan in that play. Is is that the original name, Yokanan, or where does that come from?

SPEAKER_03 43:16

Yeah, Yokanan is um Hebrew for John.

SPEAKER_00 43:19

Have you found in your research, Gary, any any sort of you touched on it before that he's ever changed. Over the last hundreds, 120, 150 years in particular, a new interpretation of the biblical figure that is John the Baptist?

SPEAKER_03 43:32

I I have read neither the play nor heard the opera, so I can't comment on that. I mean what what what would you call Oscar Wilde? Avantgardist and a seat?

SPEAKER_02 43:42

He's definitely I think he was probably definitely avant-garde. For his time.

SPEAKER_03 43:46

Breaking grounds.

SPEAKER_02 43:47

Yes. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 43:48

And very en vogue, yeah. I suppose John the Baptist would have been a good example of a proto hippie, or could have been used as a good example of a proto hippie.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

Not just because of the look and the hair and the Close, but also because of his uh Revolutza look.

SPEAKER_03 44:03

Yeah, uh revolutionary ideas, counter-establishment, even the camel hair aesthetic you could work in. And if you have someone like Oscar Wilde writing a play about him, which would be in what, late 1890s, something like that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

Yeah, Richard Strauss was about the turn of the century. I looked up cinematography on him. There's literally a film every decade. Like even in the silent era twenties, thirties, forties, the one I'm playing is the probably the biggest production. There was another one in the 60s. There's a recent one with even with El Pacino in it, playing Herod Antipas. And and and so this story about Salome gets warmed up about every decade. I think especially now through the eyes of feminism and and uh the the power that she had, same with her mother, is a is a new way of interpreting uh this historical figure that because Herod Antipas comes across a bit like Nero in the old film, where he's like this this big obese, flamboyant guy who who doesn't really know about politics, doesn't really care, just loves life too much and gives anything away just for a beautiful woman.

SPEAKER_03 45:00

Well I suppose it's such a salacious story, isn't it? Beautiful young girl dance of the seven veils, blood and gore and a decapitative head. In the early 1900s, you could go to an opera about that and say it's a good biblical story, a good family Bible story. Nothing pornographic about it.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

Nothing. And it was the exact opposite, and that's where the the outrage was. James, what do you think the dance of the seven veils was all about?

SPEAKER_02 45:31

I mean it's funny because Gary said, listen to this story, it does seem like the the maximum happy was it happy wife, happy life? Um it was all about inducing Herod to uh probably maybe go abent go against his better instincts.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

Yeah, well let's say um Salome started with uh seven veils and at the end of the dance she was wearing none. So it's perhaps the first ever documented striptease in biblical history.

SPEAKER_02 45:56

Sounds kind of like OnlyFans.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

If it is in the Bible, is that dance in the actual Bible or is that again Hollywood? No.

SPEAKER_03 46:01

Yes, she does dance, but there's no description of it. But there's no seven veils as uh in the Bible. No, that's that's another thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

Just whenever thinking. That brings us pretty much to the end today of Putschkast. We talked about John the Baptist. James, was he a revolutionary?

SPEAKER_02 46:17

I think for his time, he sounds like he probably was fairly close to being a revolutionary. He seems like a gadfly, right? Like a sort of a the original bloke that spoke truth to power regardless of the consequences, and the consequences were really well irreversible. You know, we're not talking about some bloke that was gonna be put in prison, they were gonna have his head. So yeah, I mean, whether you agree with him, whether you don't, whether you think he's true, whether you don't, we would probably agree that John the Baptist had a a pair of cojones on him, as the uh Mexicans or Spanish would say.

SPEAKER_03 46:59

Every word written about him says that this guy is gonna be in your face, preaching the end of the world, and you better listen to God right now.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

Last question for me today for this Putschcast episode. When I walk around any western city, I come across the word John or various forms of it all the time. In Australia there's Saint John of God. There is many other hospitals, ambulance services, orphanages, schools, and many other, of course, churches named Saint John. Is it referring back to the John that we discussed today or the other John from the Bible?

SPEAKER_03 47:38

No, not the one we discussed today. They would all be referring to the disciple John, who in the Gospel of John, which is traditionally held to be written by the disciple John, the disciple John is called the beloved disciple. So that's why he gets such a big rap. He's held to have been Jesus' most well best mate. But of course, if you're a guy called John, writing the Gospel of John, you would call the disciple John, the supposed author, Jesus' best mate, wouldn't you? I don't think that things like churches would be named after like John the Baptist or anything.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

Yeah, I'm wondering why we still talk about him today, given that he was almost wiped off the earth.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Um I mean there is a whole denomination named after John the Baptist, right? The Baptist movement.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

So you just said, Gary, that most Christian institutions that have the word John or any form of it in it refers to John from the gospel, like one of the disciples of Jesus?

SPEAKER_02 48:36

Yeah, one of the disciples.

SPEAKER_00 48:37

However, James, you make a fair point.

SPEAKER_02 48:39

You know, my wife grew up in a Baptist church, and I'm pretty sure my grandparents were Baptists as well.

SPEAKER_03 48:45

I once read a sort of funny article. One Baptist said that their denomination was older than the Catholic Church because we're named after John the Baptist. I I think that's a complete misinterpretation. As far as I know, the Baptists only emerge in in the in the early nineteenth oh sorry, there's the Anabaptists from Middle Ages. But the modern Baptist movement only emerges in the nineteenth century. And really they're referring to the ritual. The key thing about the Baptists, as far as I know, is that one of their crucial beliefs is that they believe in full adult immersion as the mechanism of baptism. So you you can't just get sprinkled on the head.

SPEAKER_02 49:26

I mean that's not just peculiar to the Baptists either. The evangelicals, the Methodists, they all believe that as well. It's essential to their faith. And you have to be an adult or in the evangelical movement, you've got to be of age. I think so. That would be thirteen. I think minimum of thirteen pretty much, because that's the time when you become an adult.

SPEAKER_03 49:48

So I don't know how important the figure of John the Baptist is in the Baptist movement versus the ritual, the ritual of baptism.

SPEAKER_00 49:58

Which is an incredible call to action for all our Baptist listeners out there. Send us an email, putcast at gmail.com. How much does John the Baptist uh mean to you? And is that something that is being referred to constantly when you attend church? I want to thank you very much, Gary Stevens, for today. That was another great insight into the Bible and everything around it.

SPEAKER_03 50:24

As usual, it was a pleasure to be here. And hopefully we've actually recorded something.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

I think we have.

SPEAKER_02 50:29

And James, did you learn a bit today? Gary, I always learn something listening to you. You're just like a huge font of knowledge. I'm just amazed how much you know. When I used to be in church, I used to be bored to tears. Or when Oliver told me we were talking to you again, I was like, I need to talk to Gary because yeah, I just learned so much.

SPEAKER_00 50:46

We learned last time Gary doesn't disclose his uh faith or belief, which is much respected on this show, Gary. But I believe that you should follow us if you don't do that yet. So please look up Putschcast on your favorite streaming platforms. Tell your friends and family about it. It really helps and makes a difference for us to get those episodes up. And please also subscribe to History in the Bible. It's a great podcast, many, many episodes for you. We can really deep dive into anything that has to do with the Christian faith is history and how much truth and science there is behind it. I think I've wrapped it up quite nicely here, Gary. All good. Thank you very much.