Putschcast
A global podcast about Riots, Rebellions and Revolutions. Putschcast explores how power changes hands, whether through internal social and political decay, external pressure, popular resistance or a pure stroke of luck.
Featuring experts in their field, every episode explores a unique moment in history that led to profound changes in the lives of the people affected by it.
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Putschcast
#13 Lebanon - Food, Shelter and Torture...the Hezbollah System
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Western media calls Hezbollah a terrorist group and leaves it at that. This Putschcast episode does something more: it shows how the organisation governs; terrorising its own people while supporting others.
Journalist Dr Rami Aycha offers an inside look at Hassan Nasrallah – his rise, 30-year reign, and brutal death by Israeli forces. Aycha's connection is deeply personal: his father was Nasrallah's school principal. His uncle is a Hezbollah member. His mother remains a devoted follower.
Yet none of that protected him. Hezbollah thugs abducted and tortured Aycha for covering a secret arms deal between the "Party of God" and Syrian forces – supposed enemies turned quiet partners.
As Aycha explains, Hezbollah never needed to formally seize power – after assassinating Prime Minister Rafic Hariri in 2005 and staging a brief coup in May 2008, they already controlled Lebanon from the shadows.
If you think you understand Lebanese politics, Hezbollah, or the line between resistance and repression – think again.
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Welcome to Podcast. I'm your host Oliver Heuter. My co-hosts are all out and about researching fascinating topics for this revolutionary podcast, such as the Mexican Revolution, the Parry Commune, and we are even investigating a power struggle inside the Vatican, asking why a dead pope was put on trial. But today we're exploring a much more contemporary topic, not on the bombing of Iran by Israeli and US forces, but a very closely linked conflict, the bombing that's happening right now in Lebanon. Why is there constant conflict between Israel and Lebanon? Well, the notorious Shia paramilitary group Hezbollah may have a thing to do with it. You might remember that their leader, Hassan Nasrallah, was killed in a spectacular air bomb raid, very similar to the events that took place recently in Tehran. And obviously, both theaters of war are very closely aligned. However, given how powerful Hezbollah was, only a few years ago, I've always wondered why didn't they go all in? Why didn't they try and seize power? Try and establish the Islamic Republic of Lebanon. Well, it turns out they did try, although very briefly, and some call it a putsch. But what exactly happened? Who are the men with the yellow flag and the green machine gun on it? And who was the all-powerful leader, Hassan Nasserala? I'm excited to welcome a guest on Putschcast today, who has a very personal story to tell about his experience with Espola, but who's also researched the inner workings of this fascinating organization for decades.
SPEAKER_04Thank you so much, Oliver. Well, my name is Rami Aisha. I'm a Lebanese Palestinian journalist. I was born and raised in Lebanon. I majored in journalism in 2004. And since then I continued as a journalist, working over 22 years of my life as a journalist, as a producer, as a news producer, documentary producer. Recently I've been working as a freelancer to some of the production houses in Lebanon as an executive producer, running ideas, going through several documentaries, organizing work for them.
SPEAKER_01And for context, um you are not in Lebanon right now. Where am I talking to you?
SPEAKER_04Currently I'm in Canada, but I'm moving all the time between Lebanon and Canada. A year and a half I decided to move out of Lebanon because I was so pressured by the Lebanese state, by Hezbollah, so I decided to move back then for the safety of my family, for my safety. But I still go back and forth. The last time I went to Lebanon, after five minutes of arrival to my home, I received a call by mistake to my landline asking me if I am ex. So it was a direct message that we are following you, we know everything about you, because Hezbollah is an organization that controls the country.
SPEAKER_01And you just mentioned so you still can travel, but you put your family first and made sure they are out of reach.
SPEAKER_04Yes, it's better for the future of my family, it's better for the safety of my family. I still go back and forth. My family, if they travel to Lebanon, they don't travel with me because I'm afraid something happens, and I don't want my children to be traumatized for the rest of their lives.
SPEAKER_01And you speak from experience, unfortunately, because you have a history that you may want to share with us later. You've had very personal experience with what Hezbolla can do to people. You call yourself a a Lebanese man of of Palestinian origin. Tell us about your family history. How how did you come to live there?
SPEAKER_04My father was born in Lebanon. I was born and raised in Lebanon. I come from a mixed family, Ishia mother and Ishunni father. Throughout all my life, I lived in the capital of Beirut. In 1992, we moved to the southern suburbs. You know, and since then I know I lived within the Hezbollah community for so long, until 2008, when I decided to move out of the southern suburbs, because I started to see the changes and I was able to build my own perspective about do I want to continue living with these people or I or I want to move outside of this of this place. And I I have so many incidents with Hezbollah. Some of them were really bad, some of them were good. I left the country between 2013 and 2015 for a couple of years. I moved because that was the peak of tension between me and Hezbollah. And then I started to go undersurface until 2023. Hezbollah took over the whole country. Practically I was forbidden from working. The Lebanese army stopped giving me permissions to work. That's when I started, I decided that it's time for me to move. And by the way, I had two options. I either move to Australia or move to Canada. And we decided eventually to move to Canada with a family.
SPEAKER_01I think a good decision, and especially in hindsight, and and you've just mentioned your own family biography is a reflection of the diversity of Lebanon. So you are from a mixed family, and that always worked out well until certain historical events that we'll discuss today. You also mentioned 2003 as a pivotal moment, but then also 2008, which is where we're getting today. But maybe can you just explain to our listeners who are not as familiar? I think most people probably know the images of thousands and thousands of people on big squares, all with yellow flags and a green logo on it. The logo has a machine gun. There's a a leader, which we'll discuss today as well, Hassan Nisralla. So he played an important role for decades. But just the basics, what does Hezbollah actually mean?
SPEAKER_04Well, Hezbollah means the party of God. This is the literal translation of what Hezbollah means. And if you see the their their their flag or the logo of Hezbollah, it's the it's the iron fist holding an AK-47, and below it it's the Islamic resistance in Lebanon. This is what Hezbollah stands for. And this is why it's extremely hard to deal with Hezbollah because they think themselves freely and practically that they are the party of God. And God doesn't make mistakes. So but let's go back to the origin of Hezbollah. Hezbollah was first established or founded in 1982. It was a kind of a a secret movement or underground organization that no one knew about. They were the ISIS of of the Shiat community. So we had ISIS for the Sunnis and then and then we had Hezbollah as the ISIS of the Shia community. Sometimes they called themselves back then, between 1982 and 1985, they called themselves the Islamic Jihad. Sometimes they called themselves the religious Amal. People didn't really know who these people are. They only knew some of their operations. They attacked the Marines and the French paratroopers, they killed 300 people, they killed 300 soldiers. They then they did attacks against the US Embassy, then they did attacks against the headquarters of the Israeli Israeli bases, the main base of the headquarters of Israeli forces in Tyr, and then they kidnapped several journalists. So it's exactly as ISIS did or used to do.
SPEAKER_01You just mentioned the year 1982 as the founding year. So we actually have there's a founding story. So we've got a new regime in Tehran, also Shia, and then we've got is it the height of the Lebanese Civil War around that time? Or what was Lebanon like in 82?
SPEAKER_041982 is the year of the Israeli occupation to Lebanon. There happened an Israeli invasion to Lebanon in 1982, and they were able to take control of all the country and they expelled the PLO, Palestinian Liberation Organization, out of the country. And then that's when the Christian militias took over the country. So that's exactly the context of when Hezbollah was created and when Hezbollah was founded. And just so you know, so many of Hezbollah's military commanders were part of the PLO, of this Palestinian Liberation Organization, before they became religious, before they became pro-Iran, they before they became, you know, or they founded the so-called Islamic jihad back then.
SPEAKER_01So the word resistance fighter didn't make sense because they were actually resisting the Israeli occupation and also the dominance of the Christian militias at the time.
SPEAKER_04Yes, exactly. Exactly. You know, between 1982 and 1985, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard arrived to Lebanon. That's when they started the alliance between each other. They started to arrive to the Becca Valley, they started to train and fund Hezbollah, they started to support them, but it was all underground until 1985. In 1985, Hezbollah came out with an open letter. They called it the open letter for all the oppressed people in Lebanon and the region. That's when Hezbollah announced itself and called themselves as the party of God, as the Islamic resistance in Lebanon, very similar to the Islamic revolution in Iran. So this is the origin of Hezbollah.
SPEAKER_01So they they were intending to basically uh found the Islamic Republic of Lebanon. Was that their initial goal when they started?
SPEAKER_04Yes, of course. Even even in their open letter, they said uh we want uh to to resist the occupation, we want to expel all the foreign troops out of the country, and we pledge obedience to the Prime Leader Khomeini back then. He was still the Ayatullah Khomeini.
SPEAKER_01Can you just give us an idea of percentage population-wise? Like how many of Lebanese people Shia actually? Are they the majority, minority, or what is it like?
SPEAKER_04If you want to compare to other sects, Lebanese Lebanese people in they are all over the world. There are over 13, 14 million Lebanese people, but within Lebanon there are six million Lebanese people. Out of them there is almost 1,200,000 Shiites. So they are the biggest sect in Lebanon. We also have the Druze, you have the Sunnis, you have the Christian Maronites, you have the Orthodox, you have so we have we have a big uh diversity when it goes to sects in Lebanon.
SPEAKER_01And you had this unique uh political model that seemed to have worked for a while, where you know I think each of the important positions in government are assigned to one of the religious minorities.
SPEAKER_04Yes, the president always has to be a Maronite, a Christian Maronite, then the Prime Minister has to be Isunni, then the prime then the Speaker of the Parliament has to be Shiai.
SPEAKER_01Or that all became dysfunctional through those many PLO fighters coming in, and therefore Israel coming in and having to take over. Or what was the excuse for the Israelis to start the occupation, which then led to the foundation of Hezbollah?
SPEAKER_04PLO was uh, you know, was based in Lebanon after after Jordan uh they moved to Lebanon, and from Lebanon they were launching attacks against Israel, continuous attacks. They controlled the south, all of south of Lebanon, they they wanted to topple the regime in Lebanon. They were they were it's exactly the same as Hezbollah. So Hezbollah copied PLO, they copied the Islamic revolution, and that's what they do now.
SPEAKER_01So they learn from each other, even though are they rivals or do they cooperate? Because PLO is obviously more Sunni. Hezbollah is more Shia.
SPEAKER_04PLO is a secular party. PLO was never was never a religious party. You have Hamas later on that came as as a religious party, Hamas who became in alliance with uh with Hezbollah and Iran. Also you had Islamic jihad, Islamic jihad, there are the Shi'as. They are the Sunnis who turned into Shias in in Palestine, and they are also supported by Iran. They are considered one of Iran's arms in the region. But let's go back to 1985 because it's really important to let people understand what happened in 1985. In 1985, Hezbollah was really the ISIS of of Lebanon. That's when clashes happened between Amal, which is the Shia party that was there for years and years and years, and then with Hezbollah, those who are coming, those who had beards, who those who are very fanatic, those who are don't accept the others, those who want to make their own Islamic State within Lebanon. That's when clashes started to happen between Amal, between the Shia party and Hezbollah, the so-called Hezbollah. And these these clashes led to thousands and thousands people uh were killed because of this of this fight. It was between this fight continued between 1985 all the way until 1990, when the Syrians and the Iranians sat together and they decided that Amal will take over the government, it will be represented in the government, it will be represented in the parliament, and then Hezbollah will take uh the resistance side and it will only be dedicated towards resistance and resisting against Israel, and they will not be part of the government.
SPEAKER_01Wow, so I think we have to make a separate episode on the Lebanese civil war because that is so complicated. So it's not just Christians fighting, fighting Muslims, fighting Jews, etc. It is Shia fighting Shia.
SPEAKER_04It's called in in the history. If you look to the history of Lebanon, it's called the brothers' fight. They fought together, the Shias, until 1990, when Iran sat with the Syrians because Amal was backed by the Syrians, Hezbollah was backed by uh by the Iranians, they sat together and they ended this war, and they what we already mentioned that they stopped the fight between each other.
SPEAKER_01So the end of the civil war, we're left with the old system of governance back in place. So we have got those three positions that need to be assigned to each of the religious groups. However, we're also left with a divided Shia community where the moderates, the Amal party, ended up striking a power deal and they are representing the community in parliament, so on the legal level. However, they've never merged with Hezbollah, became one Hezbollah still stayed separate in a semi-resistant way, or how did Hezbollah develop from 1919 onwards?
SPEAKER_04Uh no, Hezbollah was was full on power and in terms of of resistance. They really did not share by any means in the parliament. They was they were never part of the corruption in the country. Between 1985 and 1990, they had the first general secretary who was uh who was called Subhet Faili. That's a a figure who was considered that he's involved in a lot of Shia blood, so they decided to move him. In 1991, they elected the new general secretary who was the teacher of Hassan Nasrallah, who will become the general secretary after the assassination. So people don't really know that Hassan Nasral is actually the third general secretary of Hezbollah. He's not the first. But the image of Hizbolla and the resistance actually goes with Nasrallah.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Like, you know, if I had to pick out a picture of who the leader is, I would always recognize him. I'm not sure if I'd recognize anyone else. Again, so 1990, 91, Lebanon is finally at peace. Probably not in a good shape after over a decade of civil war. However, everyone got a deal, they revert back to the old political system that seemed to have worked. And Hezbollah came out strong from this conflict, or what what shape was Hezbollah in in 1990?
SPEAKER_04Uh no, they were they were extremely strong. The Taf Accord that ended the war in Lebanon actually put Syria, uh was under the umbrella of Syria. So Syria was controlling everything. So Syria didn't even allow the leftist parties or the Palestinians to go to the south to make any type of resistance. It was like a monopole for Hezbollah. It was only Hezbollah the one who is allowed to do the resistance. And that's when the image of Hezbollah started to rise. You know, in 1992 we had the first confrontation or the first war between Hezbollah. It was in September 1992, was the first confrontation or war or operation between Hezbollah. Hassan Asrallah became really weak, not accepted by people. People I remember myself, my mom was very angry when Nasrallah came. Abbas al-Musawi, he was the strong figure who wanted to represent the Shias, who was wanted to raise the voice of Shias, was assassinated. So when he when Hassan Asrallah was elected, everyone was shocked that he's very young, he doesn't know what to do. Few months later, the forced war breaks between Hezbollah and Israel, and Nasrallah wanted to prove to everyone that he is a very strong person, and he was the first one who launches the rockets deep inside Israel. That's when he started to surprise people. And that's when he he started to rise. He was the humble person, talks to everyone, he's who's open. He cares about no power sharing, he doesn't care about this, he's dedicated to the resistance. At the same time, Syria was doing the dirty job for them, preventing anyone from doing any type of resistance. 1994, 1996 was the second exam for Hassan Nasrallah because there was another clashes, a war between Hezbollah and Israel. Hezbollah won again. They started to do many operations. And by the way, I want to tell you something about 1994. 1994 I still remember very well. My father was the teacher of Hassan Nasrallah.
SPEAKER_01When Hassan Nasrallah was a child, your father was his teacher.
SPEAKER_04No, my father was the director of the school. He didn't directly teach him, he was the director of the school. He's coming from an average Shia family that was expelled from its home in the South because the South back then was occupied. They were living in a in a Christian neighborhood called Annaba, Burj Hammud. The school that my father was assigned to, it was the public school.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and then many years later in the 1990s, 1994, you were there with your father. Your father was still the principal, and then Nasrallah came to visit the school.
SPEAKER_04He says hi to my father, you know, as a director. So this is the image of Nasrallah. Everyone loved him, everyone r respected him. He's a very important person, but at the same time, the very humble person. Two years later, Hasbollah goes into a war, they win the war against Israel in 1996, and they managed to reach into an agreement with Israel that they stopped launching rockets on each other. And then the occupation was still there back in 1996. And then in 1997, people adored Hassan Asralah, became the role model of everyone because his son died in an operation for the resistance. In 1997, his son dies. I remember me and my brother, he did the funeral openly, he met everyone. Everyone was going to in the street to pay respect for him. You know, they just opened, you know, in the middle of the street, people were he was he was standing and people would go shake his hand, pay respect for him. I remember me and my fa and my brother, just little kids. You know, do you want to go say hi to Nasrallah? Let's go say hi to Nasrallah. And then we go to the Shura, which it's the headquarters, next to the headquarters. We shake his hand and then we're like holding the hand. Look, we shook the hand of the hero for us. He was a celebrity back then.
SPEAKER_01Unlike many other leaders who would never send their own kids to the front line. Exactly. He actually was never involved as well in corruption. Because he wasn't part of the Lebanese government.
SPEAKER_04Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So there is a success story there that I can see already. Because the Lebanese government, since the end of the Civil War, never managed to shake off corruption, I assume. It's always been very difficult to do anything above board. Everything was done, backroom deals, money starts disappearing, no one knows where it goes. But here's this organization that seems to have some integrity, Hezbollah. Okay?
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_01And so they grow in popularity. However, the funding of that, because everything costs money, did that always come from Iran?
SPEAKER_04Yes, this is the idea. They never needed to be part of the corruption or to be part of the system because since the the day one, they have they were funded, trained by Iran. Iran was sending them over $1.2 billion every year, which is almost the same budget of the state.
SPEAKER_01You're listening to Podcast, and we're talking to Rami Aisha, who is Lebanese, but talking to us from Canada because he moved his family to safety, but still travels back and forth to the region and works as a journalist and has many, many decades of experience. With Hezbollah. And as we've just learned, experience dating back as far as the 1990s when he went to school, where his father was the principal, and he met the leader, Nasrallah, in person, who was very kind and very popular at the time. However, things moved on. Lebanon never really calmed down as a political unit. There was always conflict. Hezbollah got away with a lot because they got a lot of funding from Iran all throughout that time, not just investing in weapons, but also social services and supporting local communities. But then there was a key moment leading up to the event that we're talking about today. 2005, Rafik Hairi, I remember that quite well. That's a very devastating attack. It wasn't like someone put a bit of poison in his drink. It was very violent, very in your face. It was a statement. How did it come to this? Can you just explain this? Because if if his polla did so well until then, why so openly, aggressively attack the government? Did that have any consequences for the people behind the assassination?
SPEAKER_04Yes, actually the decision was taken to assassinate Rafir Khariri because he was behind the resolution in 1559, because he reached to a point that he's fed up from negotiations, undertable dialogue with the Hassan Asrallah, because he had so many good relations with the international community. He was the one behind the 1559 resolution, which actually prevents Hezbollah from carrying weapons, which actually forces Hezbollah to hand to hand its weapons to the Lebanese government. That's when the decision by one of the branches in Hezbollah, it was Imad Burniyi, and it was who is the historical intelligence and military commander of Hezbollah, the Mustafa Badrid Din, who is the brother-in-law of Ahmad Burniyah as well. So they were the ones who took the decision to assassinate Nasrallah without knowing. Nasrullah was the image since 2005, but we had so many branches in Hezbollah that Nasrallah cannot control. And it's exactly the same until this moment.
SPEAKER_01You've spoken about all those branches. You've also spoken about your family. You know, your father was quite impressed by him. Your mom was a a big fan once he, you know, put the Israelis in place in the 90s.
SPEAKER_04Yes. First of all, uh let me correct something for you. You said my mom was, she is still till this moment a big supporter of Hezbollah. Because so many people do not accept to change this image out of their brain, out of their mind. For them, everything is conspiracy against Hezbollah. And that's what Hezbollah was trying to sell for decades. That we are the resistance, we are not involved in corruption, we don't do drugs, we don't do money laundry, we don't do assassinations. It's all Israel. Even Nasrallah back in 2005 came out with a whole scenario plot. Even on TV, he was saying we monitored and we were we intercepted signals of Israeli drones coming at this time. He was trying to point it out all towards Israel. It was proved that they were the ones who assassinated Prime Minister Rafir Hariri and who will make several many, many, many assassinations later on. It was proved, now it's open. But the people of the resistance or people of Hezbollah till this moment do not believe. They all brainwash, they just tell you, no, it's Israel the one who assassinated all these people. So many people do not accept to change the image of Hezbollah. Until this moment, they will not, and they will not accept to change this image. I think with time, things will change. The image of Hezbollah will stay among its people exactly the same as it is. The resistance, the the people who are supporting the oppressed people, the people who are supporting uh the rights of the Shiites.
SPEAKER_01This encourages me even more to find out more why they are so successful. And you're obviously from a and then very well-educated background, and I assume your parents are very clever people too. I mean, your father's a principal of a school. I'm not sure what your mum's background is, but for for people in the upper middle class to to fall for this myth for so many decades, that's that's quite fascinating. So what what do you think is the magic, the magic touch that that Hezbollah has and and why like water of a duck's back, no matter what they do, they always get away with it, with their followers at least.
SPEAKER_04Because Hezbollah is a state within a state. Because Hezbollah works on polishing its image. It's not it's not an organization that is just keeps everything for coincidence. No, they are very well organized. They have councils for everything. They have the executive council, which is the government of Hezbollah, they have the legislation, legislative council, they have the Sharia Council, they have the political council. Hezbollah is a state. It's it's exactly as a state that trying to polish its image. They have thousands and thousands of people and they have the funding for that. They have thousands and thousands of people who work for them to polish their image. So today we are in a war where Hezbollah has over five thousand WhatsApp groups and over five thousand telegram groups spreading its propaganda all over the place. I see people in these groups from Australia, by the way. I see people in the Gulf, I see people in in the United States, in Canada, everywhere. They have supporters everywhere because they have been working on this image for decades so far.
SPEAKER_01The title is interesting for me though. Hassan Asrallah, you keep calling him the general secretary. I always thought the way he portrays himself, his look, the name, the party of God, the flag. I always thought that he was a spiritual leader, similar to the Ayatollah, that he was a religious figure. But he seems to be a very political figure. Or is that mixed up? How is that understood inside of Hezbollah?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. For example, let me let me tell you something first. Hezbollah doesn't accept you to talk about Hassan Nasrallah because he's a religious figure, but he's a religious figure who works in politics, you know? So so they try to mix up these things. They are the Nasrallah for them is someone who's sacred, that you're not he's the untouchable. So they have the excuse. If you want to criticize Nasrallah for his political uh position, they would say, no, no, you're not allowed to talk about him. He's a religious figure. And at the same time, if you say if you talk about him as a religious figure, you will be attacking the Shias. So in any way, you cannot criticize him. So this is this is how they benefit from his two images. It's like two images at the same like in one person. That's why he's the untouchable.
SPEAKER_01Until that very day in 2024, that we'll talk about very soon. But so 2005, Hariri is assassinated. There obviously would have been turmoil inside of Hezbollah after that because it was not an agreed decision. However, what happened then, the two, three years that followed after 2005?
SPEAKER_04Nothing happened within Hezbollah after the assassination of Hariri. You know why? Because this is an information that I just got received a few days ago from someone who's within this party. Mustafa Badriden went to Nasrallah, literally told him, I assassinated Rafih Hariri, you should deal with it. I don't have anything to do with that. You should you will deal with it. So it proves to you that Hezbollah is several organizations within one organization.
SPEAKER_01It also makes me wonder if Nasrallah was the actual leader or was he just a figurehead?
SPEAKER_04Nasrallah is always the image of this party. And that's why they work a lot on not touching this image. They really work a lot and like, no, you're not allowed to touch this image because they wanted to keep this image, and behind it, you have the party that it's in 2006 will go into a war and then will eventually again win against Israel. In 2006, after Harizas and his assassination, there was a kind of a national dialogue that nobody wants to take the country towards civil war. So they started to meet in in the presidential palace. Nasrallah participates personally in these meetings. And he promises them, he promises them, we will not do any operation, we will not do anything, let the immigrants come, the country will rise again, we will have a lot of like a very promising summer. That was the promises Nasralla gave. A couple of months later, Mustafa Abad Rdin again takes the decision and he goes and he makes an attack against the Sraili soldiers and he kidnaps two of them. And that's when the war started.
SPEAKER_01So what you just said about Nasrallah necessary, not always making all the decisions. Sorry, who was the man who does all the bad things and then tells him after? What was his name?
SPEAKER_04Mustafa Madridin.
SPEAKER_01Mustafa Madriddin. I get the impression now, I think I'm I think I'm starting to figure out Lebanese politics here. So whenever you screw up and done something that is not favorable for your image, you just go after Israel, score there, and then everything will be good again because that's the only thing that matters. And that then led to the you know the cross-border activities where I just had to look up the names, but I remember them very well from the news. Ehud Goldwasser and Eldat Reg, the two Israeli soldiers were captured, taken hostage. That then led to that 40-day war or so, which Hezbollah claimed victory in. And unfortunately, those two men were then returned as dead bodies in 2008. And as soon as Hezbollah achieved that, not just in the country but abroad, you said they are just being celebrated. They get away with anything, really. Yeah. That's how it works. Okay. And then you mentioned before that you know Nasrella goes on television and other leaders and that they talk to the nation through TV, which is very crucial for the event we're talking about, because Hezbolla owns their own TV stations and communications networks, right?
SPEAKER_04Yes, they own everything. They own the country, in my opinion. They they don't only own, they infiltrated and they created other media stations as well that they claim they are not part of it, but they are funding it. So Hezbollah has officially Al Manar, which is its own TV station, Al-Nur, which is own radio station, but then it funds tens and tens of politicians and journalists to polish its image, and they created Al-Akbar, Al-Mayadin, Al Ahid, Al you know, you name it. Nowadays, you will find tens and tens of podcasts of of uh internet TVs, and it's all funded by Hezbollah. All of them they are serving the image of Hezbollah, or they're trying to polish the image of Hezbollah still with the same old thing. Resistance, resistance against Israel, against Israel. It all goes like this.
SPEAKER_01Just to clarify for any listeners, Poch class is not funded by Hezbollah. We remain independent, but I'll have to ask you, have you ever worked for them? Or were you tempted to work for them as a journalist?
SPEAKER_04No, never. I'll tell you something, how how Hezbollah approaches you. I was approached in 1999 by Hezbollah. There was still, you know, the secret, you know, movement, the resistance movement. I meet someone, I talk to him, and then apparently they start monitoring you. And then a guy comes, he's the recruiter, and I am the recruited. They apparently they monitor you, they see your behavior, and then someone approaches you and will tell me, you know, would tell me, we are we we've been following you a lot, we want to talk to you. Of course, they start to try to sell you the Israel liberation resistance. This is the same slogans that they repeat all the all the time. And I remember I was so afraid that I couldn't say no. I was like, okay, yeah, sure. And he was like, we meet tomorrow, or I can't remember. He said, like, we will meet in this day at this specific time. And I was like, okay, he said, I will come here and then you will we will go somewhere, me and you. And I was okay. And I remember I was terrified at at that day. I'm terrified, looking from behind the curtains from my balcony. He's waiting for me downstairs. I don't want to go because this is not where I want where I belong. I don't want to be there. I just want to be in the normal young 19 years old guy who wants to go out. He doesn't want to be committed to resistance and Islamic rule ruling and all these things. And then he waits and waits and waits. He waits over two hours for me and then he leaves. Then I can go out out of my home. Then a few days later, the same person approaches me and then asking me again, you know, I was and I tell me telling him, I'm re I got busy, I forgot, you know, making excuses not to go with him. Then he again he tries to recruit me, and then same thing, same scenario happens. I give him an appointment. It was direct, indirect message that I don't want to be part of you. And since then, they stopped approaching me to be part of them. But they approached me hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times. 2007 I started to work for Time Magazine. Of course, directly I'm the spy for the CIA because I'm working for Time Magazine. In 2008 and 9 and 10, they approached me continuously, you know, like, yes, you should be aware not to be recruited. And I'm like, I know myself, nobody's gonna recruit me. I I I don't accept these things, I'm an independent journalist. So they start to do these these games against you, you know, like they first they try to embrace you, and later on it's gonna explode between me and them, and then they will start, you know, attacking me, and then until the event of my kidnapping in 2012.
SPEAKER_01That characteristic methodology that they follow seems to be successful because many people do then put their hand up and collaborate with Hezbollah. Some become really passionate followers, and only a few put up resistance or end up in exile. Because you mentioned, you know, there's millions of Lebanese people living in exile, not just because of Hezbollah, because of the violence in the situation in the country, but I'm assuming there's a few political people as well who don't want to be there, but have this power through the media as well. So what happened and how's it related to TV stations that the 2008 events in May occurred?
SPEAKER_04In 2008 they justified it. It's against the network of the resistance. Again, everything has to be to go against Israel. They recruit TV stations, uh, journalists to provoke against the government, and that's when they decided to go to the street after preparing their own community that all what's happening is part of the conspiracy against the resistance. This is the United States behind the United States and Israel is uh behind this, and we should stop it to keep the community of the resistance and to keep the path of this resistance. And that's when they went to the streets. They justified it by their own media stations through so-called independent journalists. They sent people to start convincing others that, oh, this is the decision. Now we have to go down to the streets because it's against the resistance. And to be honest, as many people, like the majority of the Shias, suffered from the Israeli occupation. So many of them they were they were not even allowed to go to the south for to their homes in the south for years and years. So Hezbollah was the salvation for them. Hezbollah was the one who brought dignity for these people. So that's why they will always support him, because they were all able to go back to their homeland. In 2008, Hezbollah prepared its own community of what they are going to do. And this is something, by the way, they still do it till today. They prepare their own community because the most important thing for them is to keep the hosting community, because as long as as there's a hosting community for Hezbollah, Hezbollah cannot be defeated.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, regimes collapse usually when people stop believing in it, right? So as long as they have buy-in and people are supportive, then let them hide in their houses, they they store ammunitions for them and they spread the message, obviously. What was the trigger moment in 2008 that led to the event we're talking about today when Hezbollah actually briefly tried to seize power in Beirut?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, the events were the decisions taken by were the decisions taken by the government after they considered the telecommunication network of Hezbollah a illegal network, after dismissing the chief of uh security in the Beirut airport, and after uh trying to take out the cameras of Hezbollah that were on the runway of Beirut Airport and on the entrance and exit of the Beirut airport. That was the moment that Hezbollah decided to go to the street because they wanted to send a message that we control this country. That was the the the breaking point, in my opinion. The Hezbollah ended its image as a resistance and then they started the a new era of like seizing power by force.
SPEAKER_01In any other country, that would be the most obvious situation, right? That the government has authority over the airports, over the TV radio stations. Or not authority, but at least that they're not in control of a competing party that is trying to counter whatever the government does. And and so there must have been a very brave prime minister there at the time who was then willing to take on Hezbollah? Or how did that come about that the government finally stood their ground and said, this is it, no further, and we're actually gonna try to reduce your power in the country, i.e., shut down your communications networks and other things. What led to that?
SPEAKER_04It all goes back to 2005. You know, we had governments that they are Hezbollah is part of it, but they are not the they are not the majority inside the government. So they don't have the blocking veto or the blocking third, which Hezbollah will get after 2008 all the way till 2024. The blocking third or the veto of taking any decision because let's say the government is ten, they have three. If they have the third of the government, always had the third of the government after 2008. So it was Prime Minister Fuat Senora who who was a very close friend of uh Prime Minister Rafir Hariri, former Prime Minister, he's backed by uh by the United States, he's backed by the Arab world, he's backed by Saudi Arabia, and it was the first attempt to stop, to really stop Hezbollah. Because I think they knew that everything would reach to what we are in now.
SPEAKER_01That is the geopolitical context. Very interesting to hear who backed the Lebanese government, and we all know who backs Hezbollah. So the government then says, okay, shut down, you're out. Hezbollah said no. And then shots are being fired again. So can you talk us through the events in May? What actually happened?
SPEAKER_04One day before the clashes, it was the 6th of May, I go to the side of uh future movement because mainly it was against future movement, who is the party of the Prime Minister.
SPEAKER_01And they had their own television station called Future TV, yeah?
SPEAKER_04Exactly, which which Hezbollah first thing they burnt later on during the May clashes. That was the first thing that Hezbollah did. Al-Mustabal Future TV and future newspaper, they burned them. I was there when they burned them. They burned them to shut them down because they don't want any other voice in the country except their voice. They go down to the street. At first, they mobilize Amal, the other Shia party. Amal guys were like just shooting from behind the walls, you know, nothing happens. So this war can continue or these clashes can continue for years and years and years because future people are moved like shooting from behind walls, and then Amal people move shooting from behind walls, and then Hezbollah, I will never forget this image. Hezbollah people come with their SUVs fully armed. It's the first time that I see Hezbollah that have armored vehicles. They come, they open the trunks. I remember very well these images because I was like looking, I was shocked, I was in total shock. They have maps of everything, they distribute the groups, you know, like unit one go from there, unit two go from here. I remember telling my friends, my colleagues, in hours this will be over. Because they came very well organized. I said it's time for us to leave because otherwise we're gonna get stuck here. We leave, we stay. Sleep a fight between future movement and Amar. We wake up, Hezbollah took over all of Beirut.
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SPEAKER_01So they seize power.
SPEAKER_04As simple as it is.
SPEAKER_01Textbook.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That is then the key moment when the Hezbollah emerged that we all know now. So this military organization. It was more hidden. Like they weren't as openly, especially on the streets of Beirut, militant as as they are now.
SPEAKER_05Exactly.
SPEAKER_01And then why are they no longer in power if they seize power? What happened? That Hezbollah must have retreated eventually because it didn't become the Islamic Republic of Lebanon, which I could have created on the 7th of May.
SPEAKER_04Because it's impossible to declare the Islamic Republic in Lebanon. Otherwise, you have to kick out all the Christians, all the Sunnis, everyone. It's impossible. You have to expel hundreds of thousands of Christians out of the country to actually create your own Islamic State.
SPEAKER_01So they've taken charge, they're taking power. However, they're well aware that this is not some sort of desert, this is a very multicultural country with a very long history. They could have become separatists and start their own country inside of Lebanon, which they already do, but I mean with their own borders and split off from Lebanon. So that was never a thought?
SPEAKER_04You don't have to seize power by taking over everything. You can actually do whatever you want in this state and everyone follows you. That's all what you need. Why to take power if you're benefiting from the whole state?
SPEAKER_01Just a very naive question. I've learned a lot today. But where was the Lebanese army when this happened on the 7th of May 2008?
SPEAKER_04Believe it or not, today we were talking about this. Me and the general in the Lebanese army. He was criticizing why until this moment the army didn't intervene. He told me I remember in 2008 when the incidents happened, we were so many generals together. We were supposed to be defending Beirut. But then the army decided because it's it has so many sects in it, so there was a threat of being divided. And that's when they did the army decided not to intervene. They were like, put the army is very weak. We're not gonna let the army get divided again because the army back in the Civil War was very divided. So many generals, we said we will not accept Hezbollah's invasion. And when the invasion started, they took the weapon from one side into another side. They were supporters of a future movement saying we will not allow Hezbollah Hezbollah to invade. When Hezbollah won, they were like, okay, we are now supporters of Hezbollah. So they shifted they shifted sides like very fast.
SPEAKER_01Obviously to preserve their own lives as well. But then also, like you said, people aren't interested in another war, I guess, as well, after so many decades of civil war.
SPEAKER_04Exactly, and this is and that's what Hezbollah today threatens the Lebanese all the time. If the army intervenes, then this means we will the army is gonna get divided and a civil war is going to happen. Every day they threaten the Lebanese people with this thing.
SPEAKER_01And just confirming, so Hezbollah is until this day, it's not filled with radical Islamists who who want to bring about the kingdom of God on earth. It's it's full of everyday normal people that like you were approached at some stage in their younger lives who have received benefits in in some way or form, and they just support this cause.
SPEAKER_04After 2008, everything changed. Hezbollah was still calling itself a resistance. After 2008, they started to be part of the government at all times. They started to be part of the system, they started to go to infiltrate the system, to infiltrate the Lebanese army all the way until 2011, when the war in Syria started.
SPEAKER_01Was that an outcome of the 2008 coup that the government then said, well, if we can't control you outside of the government system, let's bring you in, and therefore Hezbollah then started to be part and then have seats in parliament and be part of the system? Is that what happened?
SPEAKER_04The first time Hezbollah joined the government was 2005. 2005 is the breaking point with everything, that everything is gonna start changing after 2005. But then it's an accumulation of incidents on top of each other to what we see today. In 2006, for example, our Radwan troops, they are the elite forces of Hezbollah, they were still only 500 people fighting underground, you know. In 2011, Hezbollah started to militarize the whole Shia society. Until 2008, 2009, 2010, things were fine. After the year 2010, the Arab Spring starts, and then they started militarizing the whole society. They started bringing in all the Shia guys. No, you're the untouchable, and you're 18 years old, and you're getting five hundred dollars a month, and you're getting free education for your children if you get if you get married, and then free hospitalization. That's what Hezbollah provides, and that's why so many people were dragged into Hezbollah after the year 2008.
SPEAKER_01And and how was it then resolved? So they're still in power, they're sitting on all the levers of power in Beirut in 2008 in May. How were they convinced to step down again? What happened there?
SPEAKER_04It's not that they were convinced. They they simply went uh to uh Qatar and we did the Doha Agreement. It was agreed that of the formation of the national unity government, which gave Hezbollah the blocking third or the veto within the government. And since then Hezbollah has the veto until the very last government, that Hezbollah, even after this war, the 2024 war, they tried to get the blocking third, but no one gave it to them, you know, because they were so weak to ask to ask for it.
SPEAKER_01So they they came out so strong out of the 2008 coup that, like you said, they didn't need to take over power. They had it anyway. They get all the benefits from the multicultural, multi-ethnic society, they can do all their business in the background. They gained power through the blocking veto rights, then they started to militarize society. However, I also remember the Arab Spring occurred during that time in the early 2010s. And we all know that the Syrian civil war started just across the border. So Syria was obviously distracted. And was his Bala affected at all by that? Did it benefit from the Arab Spring? Or did it just pass them or was it a disadvantage to them? Do you remember?
SPEAKER_04I remember covering the speech for Nasrallah. That's when, in my opinion, they revealed the ugly face of a sectarian party. And I remember very well I was sitting like this, and then he started to talk about Bahrain. He talks about Tunis because in Bahrain there are Shias who are doing the revolution. They he talks about Yemen. Okay, of course, it's a revolution because also the Houthis are part of our sect within the Shia. And then he starts talking about Saudi Arabia. We had few incidents in S in in Saudi Arabia, they were also Shia. And then we talk about Egypt and he says it's a revolution. And then it goes to Syria and he says it's a coup, it's a conspiracy by CIA, by the foreign intelligence, and they want to take over Syria because if Syria falls down, because it's the Alawite party. So the against the Sunnis, you know, Sunni ruling governments, it's like it's a revolution. When it goes to it uh to the Alawites, it's like the coup. I remember very well these moments. I was in the middle of the speech and I was like, I'm out of here. I don't cover anything for these people anymore. It's it's insane what what will happen for many years to come. And I was very true because Hezbollah decides later on, uh, you know, saying Syria as the backbone of the resistance. If Syria falls, he tries to sell his his propaganda. If Syria falls, then the resistance falls, then Jerusalem falls, then Al-Aqsa falls, you know, and he tries to put huge slogans and people believe him. I remember I remember very well. I was I was shocked from from this from their true face of of Hezbollah. That was a very, very, very sectarian face, a very ugly sectarian face of Hezbollah. And then Hezbollah fully fully opened its doors because they needed fighters, fully opened its doors. They were bringing all the Shia guys like from all over the place. They started to to have networks in in the Gulf states, in Saudi Arabia, in United Arab Emirates, in Kuwait, in Yemen, Oman, all over the place. They started to attract fighters from all of these countries to fight with them. And then they ended up with more than 7,000 young guys killed in a war that they were not supposed to be involved in. It's because Iran asked them to be involved in it. They have an army of handicapped people who lost their either their their eyes, their hands. Back then, if you go to the Shia neighborhoods, you will see it full of posters. Wherever you go, you will find posters. As if you're going to a museum of posters. People were killed in honor of the resistance. In honor of the resistance. Hezbollah did so many bad things for it for their they they harmed their own people before harming others. It was selling weapons for the Syrian opposition, so the Syrian opposition can shoot it on its own people. It's insane. The 30th of August, I go on a mission, I received information that Hezbollah is selling weapons or some of the branches of Hezbollah that's agree on this. Some what some of the branches of Hezbollah selling weapons for the Syrian opposition. And I knew about it. It's a scoop. You know, it's like, what else? You know, like Hezbollah's fighting. So practically Hezbollah is selling the weapons for the people who are going to shoot it against its own people. A friend of mine who's also a journalist, apparently he's infiltrated from Hezbollah, he informs the board about me that I'm going to film this because I was on a distance while they were making this that's when Hezbollah arrives and they kidnap me and they beat me. I remember that day they wanted to kill me. You know, like you release our man, we release your people. It was like this. They take me to the to one of their bases and they started beating me, interrogating me, like they really beat me, you know, like and then I hear I hear a voice, two people talking, and it was not to terrify me or to scare me, you know, like to make me to get terrified. I tell the oldest came, you should get rid of them. And I remember very well someone like making like from a distance. They wanted to kill us. And believe me, the government will not, or the security forces because they are all infiltrated by Hezbollah, they will not make an investigation. It is so easy. They will assassinate us, kill us, and then they will throw us in the nearest garbage, and no one's gonna do anything. Our families will come carry us, take us, bear us, and that's it. No investigation, no nothing.
SPEAKER_01So you knew about an arms deal between Hezbollah representatives selling weapons to the Syrian opposition, which they're technically fighting, and you obviously knew the arm stealer?
SPEAKER_04Yes, because I find with him a couple of times before.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and he wanted you there to make sure that why Rami, this story is incredible. That's I think the perfect word for it. So you find out from an arms dealer who couldn't really care less who he sells arms to, but even he thought it was weird that hisbolah was selling arms to the Syrian opposition, a party that they're technically fighting, so they're arming their own opponents, because they're corrupt. It's all for for cash flow, right? He informs you about that because even he was shocked by it, or whatever happened to him then.
SPEAKER_04The arms deal was happening in in a parking lot, and I was at the edge of the parking lot hiding with the camera, filming the deal that is happening inside. And then like SUVs come, shade like tinted SUVs come all over the place, and then putting guns in my face, and I directly say, I'm a journalist, I have nothing to do there. I give them a camera, and I was like, Can I just leave? You know, I'm sorry for that. And it's like, and apparently, no, you're not leaving today. And it shows you how powerful they are. Two guys on a scooter put me, one in the front, one in the back, I'm in the middle, on the airport highway, where there's cameras for the for the Lebanese armed forces. They put a gun for me in my head, blindfolded, and I'm handcuffed on a scooter, and then the guy tells me, squeeze your legs because we're between cars, and they are taking me with gun in my head. Middle of the day, they cared about nothing because they are the state. Yes, and I remember very well where is the compound because I was I was able to see. At that time, they were it wh I was not fully blindfolded, you know. I I I'm able to see, and I know the place until this moment. And the moment I enter, they start beating me. And the one of the guys over there, one of the people, at that time they bl they really blindfolded me, I cannot see it. They were telling me which hand do you write with? Simultaneously I told them left hand. So they put my hand like this, and they start hammering it with weapons. You will not write in all of your life. We will not allow you to write anymore. They wanted to kill me.
SPEAKER_01So, Rami, you talk about this quite lightheartedly these days, that story, but that must have been the the worst moment of your life.
SPEAKER_04Yes, of course. I knew these were the last moments I'm living in this life. Seriously, when when when somebody tells you he reached to death and then he returned back, I was in that position. I was in that position when I remember very well him telling each other from a distance the decision came we were going to get rid of them. And I remembered my daughter, I remembered my my wife, I remembered my you know my life, that my life is gonna be over. And you cannot do anything, even if she screamed, even if you shouted. And I was so prepared. I was so prepared because when he carried me, I stood, but I stood as a man, just so you know, like as a real brave man who's ready to die. You know, I was not screaming, I was not crying, I was not shouting or anything like that. I stood up and then was so prepared to be killed. Later on I knew that they put him in the trunk of one of the SUVs, and then they kidnapped him as well. They took him behind me to the same place, to the same position, or to the same base that they took him. We were in two separate rooms, and I remember him shouting, screaming, like there are voices, you know, people shouting, and I'm being beaten, and I don't say and all what I say, I'm a journalist, I didn't do anything. I'm a journalist, I didn't do anything. I'm a journalist. And then somebody asked me what you were doing there. I'm filming, you already have the camera, you have my press card, I I have nothing to do in here. So at that moment, apparently because I revealed something huge against Hezbollah. I was or I was about. The decision was actually get rid of them. So that moment I hear the other guys saying, screaming, I called my people, you will see what will happen, your people will be killed. I have a phone in my socks, take it out and see that I called my people. You already have people kidnapped, so they can swap or they can exchange the, you know, like between each other. I was with the criminal who helped me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so the experienced weapons dealer took out an insurance policy by calling his friends to kidnap someone else so that if something happens to him which did, he would get out, and then you benefited from that. So how long were you in there for?
SPEAKER_04They decided that okay, we cannot kill them. We should hand them to the Lebanese authorities. Who comes to take us? The Lebanese intelligence. I don't know anything at that time. I don't know anything. I'm kidnapped. I have I I don't know anything. So phone calls started to happen, it reaches to the presidential palace, then the the the president interferes in in our case because there are people who are going to be killed if we get killed. And that's when they decide that they will hand us and them to the Lebanese intelligence, so they are released and we are released.
SPEAKER_01Have you ever thought about turning this into a movie? This is uh unbelievable stuff.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So they decided to hand us to the Lebanese uh to the Lebanese intelligence. The Lebanese intelligence, they come out of the blue. I didn't do anything. They start beating me. Again. They start beating me for no reason. I had broken ribs all over my my body. My my face was full of bruises. Like really bad, you know. I remember I had like I couldn't talk for for for some time. Had swollen lips, like blue eye, there was blood in one of my eyes. My knee till this moment hurts because I was beaten on my knee as well. It was really bad. Like really bad. If you see my my back, red and blue, it's like multicolored.
SPEAKER_01And then you go through this to then experience the exact same thing again at the hands of another military?
SPEAKER_04Yes, the Lebanese intelligence is so infiltrated by Hezbollah. All over Lebanon we have the Lebanese intelligence and we have part of the Lebanese intelligence that's called Maktab Amnad Dahi, which is the the Southern Cyber Security Office for the Lebanese intelligence. Who who appoints the members and the head of this office who follows the intelligence? It's Hezbollah. They are pure Hezbollah. So the moment I enter, they started beating me to the office, to the security the Southern Cyber Security office. They beat me in the car with their weapons. And then I remember the moment I go out of the car, they start beating me, and I'm blindfolded, I cannot see anything, and they put my head like this on the wall, and I have broken nose, and then blood goes to the to the ground, and it's like tick, tick, tick, tick. And then you see like it's going big and bigger and bigger and bigger. And then like the officer comes and he is, oh, we are very sorry, you are the journalist, right? And I'm like, yes. Yeah, I'm I'm the journalist who's full of blood, you know, like not to forget this moment. I still have my shirt till this moment. Because I always want to remember what they did to me.
SPEAKER_01Was there any chance of breaking that story afterwards? I probably shouldn't ask, but was that ever published that that actually happened? The arms deal?
SPEAKER_04Uh no, the story of the arms deal. No. After beating me with my camera, because they were beating me at like uh uh in Hezbollah's uh base, they were beating me with the camera. They were like, You're coming to find the resistance, and then he carries my $2,000 camera, and then in my head, in my head, in my and I'm like, and I'm I'm and I'm all what I remember telling them, I'm very sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I will not do it again, I will not do it again. That's all what I was saying, you know? And then they take out the memory card and then they hand it to the Lebanese intelligence telling them we don't steal anything. That's where we found the camera. That's the camera we found with him. Let let him take it with him. And that was the evidence that I'm not involved in this, by the way.
SPEAKER_01That is your personal story. I would like to ask you also when you came home after this, lucky you did get home, did you have a chat to your mum who's a big Hezbollah fan, follower?
SPEAKER_04I came back home after one month because the Lebanese intelligence transferred us to the military police where I get beaten again and then again I'm telling me, oh we are very sorry we are we know we didn't know that you are the journalist. And then they take us to the military tribunal and in the military tribunal I remember very well the judge telling me listen I know you're a journalist I can do nothing about it. You have a problem with Hezbollah go solve it with Hezbollah it shows you the deep state you know like how how much they infiltrated. Your family would have been looking for you I assume yeah you just disappeared yes at that time they were looking at us yes they didn't know where where we are they didn't know what anything about me. And it was my wedding anniversary I told my wife I'm going to do a story and then come back home.
SPEAKER_02And I never came back home until one month later.
SPEAKER_01And then what was the discussion like with your family?
SPEAKER_02Did you share any of that or did you keep everything secret? They know they know everything. They know everything.
SPEAKER_01Because early on in early sorry early on in this podcast you said that your mom until this day is a staunch Hezbollah follower.
SPEAKER_04Yes and I have uncle who is with Hezbollah it's not a supporter of Hezbollah he is with Hezbollah my mom was angry and all these things but that doesn't mean she will not support the resistance.
SPEAKER_01That was 2012 you had to go through this because of your passion for journalism. Twelve years later someone else did pay with his life and his name is Hassan Nasrallah in 2024 and I think this brings that close to our story in our interview today. So this man that used to be a student at your father's school who then later in the 90s visited the school when he was already in power and he was a celebrity at the time you saw him again in person you then witnessed on the streets in 2008 how his semi-army was taking over the streets, seizing power and expanding power really even behind the scenes but first time really overtly and then a few years after that simultaneously to the Syrian civil war in 2012 you get kidnapped badly beaten tortured on a number of occasions you don't see a family for a month. History evolves again we don't have time for for all of it but we do know what happened with the war in Gaza we know that there was more conflict in Lebanon and at the end of the story is the death of Hassan Nasrallah what do you remember what was it like when this figure head that we declared he is was suddenly killed by the people that he's defeated before okay before answering your question we should actually at least try to answer one thing why Nasrallah was killed or how Nasrallah was killed.
SPEAKER_04Actually in in my opinion after 2012 Hezbollah turned from a secret military group into to open public so they started to gather people militarizing the whole society. Hezbollah used to make people go through several filtrations before they get accepted after 2012 they needed people because they were all over the place they were we we already mentioned in in Gulf states our countries everywhere Syria, Iraq Iran, everywhere so they needed people and that's when they did the big mistake they started to get infiltrated more and more by spies of Israel and that's the security started to get weakened and weakened and weakened and weakened until Israel infiltrated literally everything everything Nasrallah's assassination happened through an infiltrator within Hezbollah they managed to infiltrate the very close circle of of Nasrallah and they gave them information that Nasrallah will be in this position at this time at in this base and in this time at that time blah blah blah blah blah blah and that's what led to to to his assassination. The death of Nasrallah is due to the expansion of Hezbollah that it's not anymore a secret organization or resistance organization.
SPEAKER_01Because they became power hungry and a bit desperate had to recruit more people therefore they couldn't be as thorough and this is how you weaken your own ranks. He paid for it in the end.
SPEAKER_04Exactly and this exactly how it happened with all the the the historical commanders of Hezbollah where they were infiltrated and Israel knew exactly from human infiltration they tried to say it's a communication nothing to do.
SPEAKER_0127th of September 2024 he was killed history's moved on very quickly we've got a you know new American uh a president and we also know what's happening in Iran at the moment it's a very uncertain situation and there is open conflict again the Israelis are now pushing up into into Lebanon in closing on reflection on the character of Nasrallah who's shaped this organization and therefore Lebanon and the region for so long how is he remembered today almost two years after his death is he a martyr is he still celebrated or do people now question if if they were in a better situation if it weren't for him?
SPEAKER_04Chili in my opinion after his m his his death he became even more bigger than a martyr he became more of an imam and is is sacred for some people they really believe he's above being a saint that who's gonna bring salvation for the whole universe that's what people believe that you know like some people even his shrine today is not an a shrine of uh of uh of any uh religious leader it's a shrine for an imam for a priest bigger something bigger than his priest now we have to catch up again later on because Lebanon doesn't stop I think unfortunately this country desperately needs peace I think that's what I've learned today but Rami you have a bit of chance for peace when you are abroad for sure and you're with your family in in safe Canada but you also because you can't stop either you're writing a book at the moment just tell us how that's progressing and when we can expect to see that.
SPEAKER_01Well since the moment I left I started to uh write a book and I'm being very accurate in every single word I I write in here actually it's my way of writing but it's the words of Hezbollah so for people who want to know more about Hezbollah and not the stuff you read in the news but the behind the scenes investigation the the other side of Hezbollah I think you'll be talking about which is not what we see on the news but how this organization actually operates and works. Is that what your book will be about?
SPEAKER_04Exactly it will be about the the businesses that the leaders of Hezbollah were doing about the lifestyle they were living about what they sell for the ordinary people and how they live about the Porsche that their women drive while they ask people to go and fight and be humble and then die for the sake of the resistance for the type of lifestyle they live within each other you know for all the conspiracies against each other for all the answers they used against the big businessmen this is my book this is exactly what my book is about the other face of Hezbollah The other face of Hezbollah by Rami Aisha I want to thank you very much for today for making the time it's late where you are and for sharing your very very unique story.
SPEAKER_03Thanks for sharing thank you thank you so much thank you Oliver podcast follow us on Facebook or Instagram to find out about the latest coup coming your way
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