#18 Mexico - Another Revolution devoures its Children

In the early 20th century, Mexico was a playground for a dictator, foreign corporations and a tiny elite while millions of peasants lived in desperate poverty.

In this Putschcast episode, we ride into the chaos of the Mexican Revolution. Joining us is Dr Robert Weis, an expert on modern Mexico, who walks us through the long collapse of Porfirio Díaz's regime and the revolutionaries who tried to seize the future.

Díaz was no simple brute. He ruled through cooperation and selective repression, bringing stability and modernisation at a terrible cost. Land was stripped from Indigenous villages, foreign investors grew wealthy while most Mexicans stayed impoverished, and dissent was crushed by the Rurales. For more than 30 years he balanced order with exploitation.

From Pancho Villa's daring cavalry in the north to Emiliano Zapata's fiery land rebellion in the south, we track how peasants, workers and renegades turned a fight against a dictator into a brutal war for the soul of a nation. Was the revolution a betrayed dream, or did it reshape Mexico forever?

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome to Podcast. I'm your host Oliver Heuter. This is a revolutionary podcast, as you know. And yes, we're trying video again. If you listen to us on Spotify, Apple or any of your other preferred podcast apps, why not check out what we look like in person? Or maybe you don't want to, I totally understand it. So you can hear that little giggle in the background. That's my co-host uh Dave Sloane Sloan. Hi Dave. Hello. Here we are and another podcast episode with you, and uh I just mentioned we are now on video. So, welcome to the interrogation room, which is where we conduct this. And for everyone listening, you have to check us out on YouTube and I'll just see what it looks like. Hey, and there's a few topics that we discuss when you know planning the schedule for this podcast where we think it's just too big for one episode, right? And I think today's one of those cases.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

This is definitely too done, yes, but we'll uh we'll start the burn and I think we'll probably december into an off-shirt episode once we get to the U.S.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

I reckon, and the good thing is we don't have to decide that, we don't have to make the decisions because uh we have an expert today with us, as we always do. His name is Robert Weeze, and he is coming live to podcast from America. Here we go. Hello Robert, welcome to the interrogation room.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

Thank you guys, it's a joy to be here. Thank you for the invitation.

SPEAKER_03 1:19

And at the center of today's um interview is a very recent book you've published, and a runtime's got the same title as this episode, The Mexican Revolution. And uh you can find a link and some more about the book on the putcast.com website. But let's quickly talk about it. Robert, what made you write a book about the Mexican Revolution?

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Well, I've always been interested in the Mexican Revolution. That's kind of been the center of my studies. Um Mexican Revolution is the is the event, um, the series of events um that creates largely what is modern Mexico, certainly Mexico for the 20th century. So it's both a reflection of uh events that had events and ideas and beliefs and dynamics that had been um brewing for a long time, and it's also going to set the course for Mexico's, for the for the uh Mexico of the 20th century.

SPEAKER_03 2:16

I've never been to Mexico. I don't speak Spanish. Uh I really don't know much about the country, uh let alone its history. That's I'm very excited. Um, do you have a personal connection to it, or how how did you make that your field of expertise?

SPEAKER_02 2:30

I grew up in Northern California, a very beautiful uh area um where there was also always lots of Mexican influence, lots of Mexican, it was an agricultural area, the wine country, so there's always lots of uh migrant workers um and just presence of Mexico. And so I'd always been interested in Spanish and in Mexico. And um when I went to live in Mexico in college, I was just stuck. I didn't know what aspect of Mexico I was going to study, but I knew that Mexico was gonna be at the center of my life for all that I could imagine.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

This revolution is really big. It's uh, you know, it's uh we've already covered this, it's kind of complex. Uh there are multiple phases. Uh there's periods that you describe as probably civil war. Um so at the start of this, and the start of it, I guess, is defined for the purpose of what we're talking about today is 1910. Uh what what does it feel like to be uh an average Mexican in Mexico? What what are the forces that are at play? What does life feel like?

SPEAKER_02 3:36

Um it depends, of course, who you are. Uh we could think of Mexico in 1910, or let's say turn of the century more broadly, um, and we could think of three major groups. Uh we could think of uh um the oligarchy um that is that is uh that is centered around the dictatorship of Porfirio Diaz. Uh we could think of then the the masses of the people who live in the countryside mostly, um, and we have a small but significant middle class um that is emerging at that time. Um and the middle class had been advocating for political change for uh a decade at least, um, but when Mexico takes a when the Mexican economy takes uh uh uh goes into decline around 1905, that is when um there are more uh problems and more agitation.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Which direction are they leaning in in terms of their interest?

SPEAKER_02 4:48

Yeah, I I think that as a distinct group, they don't um they only emerge fairly recently. They were mostly like would identify more closely as the lower strata of the oligarchy and didn't really see themselves as having perhaps distinct um values or distinct um you know goals. But they do start advocating very strongly for demograph uh democratic uh changes uh really uh in the early 20th century and it's going to climax uh in 1910.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Yeah, okay. So democracy is an ideal um at this stage or an aspiration, um, apart from, I guess, uh amongst the oligarchy. Is that a fair statement?

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Yeah, especially for the middle class. The oligarchy, of course, could care less about democracy, and the masses um had never really had much uh they're living in villages, they have their own village uh government councils. Um, democracy over the 19th century had been important at different times in a sense of nationalism. Certainly, it's not that they were uh apathetic to the political situation in their country, but democracy itself was always a rough and rocky uh process. And so when we see an uprising from the masses, it's not exactly democracy they're they're calling for.

SPEAKER_03 6:25

So we're talking the first years of a brand new century. What you just described reminds me a bit of a catching-up process with what happened in European countries about 30, 40, 50 years earlier. So was there a form of industrialization happening in Mexico? Or what's the economy like at the time? What do they make their money with, those oligarchs?

SPEAKER_02 6:46

Well, that's the interesting part. The trajectory of the Mexican economy, I would say, from especially 1885, the mid-uh 1880s, was certainly ascendant. Uh it wasn't in terms of uh industrialization. It was more like other Latin American nations, led by the exportation of primary goods, so minerals and agricultural products, um, which was more suited for oligarchical economy uh and and and kind of society in general, because obviously you have a lot of workers uh in mining and in agriculture that that are not that are getting paid very poorly, and we have a small group of landowners and uh oligarchs getting paid very handsomely. But I think that in general there was a rise in uh the economy of most people in Mexico that is then going to take a sharp downturn around 1905.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Okay, okay. So the the economic success of uh Mexico is uh is resulting in benefits that are not evenly distributed, um, and and people in general are getting a little bit upset.

SPEAKER_03 7:59

Um that uh geographically, um politics was Mexico in the borders that we know today? Because I know it's changed a few times in the 19th century, or was it a established state that we think of today?

SPEAKER_02 8:12

Well, that's the interesting thing, because the state of Portofirio Díaz, which was the dictatorship that was eventually overthrown uh by the Mexican Revolution, had created the greatest degree of political stability that Mexico had had seen since, you know, uh I don't know, perhaps ever in its modern life. You know, we have the invasion of the United States and they take half of the country. Uh the next decade, uh, or sorry, 15 years later, the French come and invade uh and uh you know, rule the country uh in their own way for you know a few years. Um and so by then the the the borders are stable, more or less stable, um uh uh and and the state is also creating has has has developed a degree of stability that that hadn't existed before.

SPEAKER_03 9:06

Let's have that quick conversation, David. Um can dictatorships be a good thing?

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Short answer, yes. I think we've seen examples of uh where it's particularly beneficial. I'm going to turn to uh turn to Robert on this one, but I suspect that in the earlier days of Diaz's rule, um it was seen as a positive and that there were definitely uh good outcomes for Mexico that resulted from his authoritarian ways. Toward the end though, passing 1900 and into 1910, uh it obviously started to come a little bit unstuck.

SPEAKER_03 9:39

How long was he in charge for and how did he rule, Robert?

SPEAKER_02 9:43

Well, the the interesting part, well, I guess like a lot of dictators, dictators, he comes to power through force, but promising to promote m greater uh democracy. Um, and so he is a liberal and he overthrows a previous generation of liberals because he says they weren't liberal enough and they needed to be uh you know, have uh alternating peoples in in the presidency and in power, and that he was going to bring more democracy to Mexico. And then he arrives and he he convinces himself that he is the necessary person to hold Mexico together. Uh but that's a fairly gradual process. He comes to power in 1876, and he really only becomes a dictator to the degree that he's changing the Constitution in order to extend and deepen uh his own authoritarianism after around 1885. The moment when both Europe and the United States uh have huge demands for the products that Mexico can export. So minerals are generating vast amounts of money that Porfirio the S is using to uh create greater infrastructure, a vast train, a network of trains, you know, kind of dredging uh harbors so that they could have bigger ships and more trade uh to Europe and and to the United States. And so precisely when he is turning towards authoritarianism and his political rule, uh he's getting vast amounts of revenue that's also adding greater stability to the country and to his own to his own regime.

SPEAKER_03 11:30

We learned that in a previous episode, remember when we talked about South Korea? That's called a self-coup. So that's someone in in charge who you know is meant to leave office and then decides he wants to stick around for a little longer, and then uh yeah, uh starts a self-coup and uh changes constitutions and and other rules and regulations and then stays there for good. So he was there for a long period. He really shaped Mexico leading up to the revolution.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

Yeah, he's there from uh with with one small interregnum, but he's there basically from 1876 to 1910.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

So in this period uh leading up to the revolution, um the the start of this appears to be um almost, and this is from my fairly uneducated perspective, but almost a uh simultaneous uprising in different parts of the country for different reasons, um, but it's all happening at once. Um so what is that actually kind of turns the tide and is there a trigger or is this something that's um more of a slow door?

SPEAKER_02 12:30

So the big call comes um from the middle class, um, and particularly led by Francisco Madero, who himself, you know, he's middle class like we would love to be middle class ourselves. Uh he's an extremely rich man, uh one of what one of the Mexico's richest families. Um I wouldn't call him middle class himself, but he does give voice to uh a broad middle class, urban middle class, um that is uh interested in having mo greater democracy and now also themselves being able to enter into uh politics. He has people, other people joining him, especially from the masses from below. Um but the differences between these middle class values and objectives and the objectives and values of the lower class people in the countryside become evident pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

You talk us through how Camadeira actually takes power because it's a uh it's a bumpy ride, um, and it's certainly not uh something that takes place in kind of a single phase. Um, but he ends up there and he ends up with the support of people like uh Zapata and Villa, um at least temporarily. So how does that uh how does that unfold?

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Well, Porfirio Diaz announces that he um after what 30 years in power, um thinks it's time that Mexicans have reached a kind of level of maturity, that they are now able to choose their own leaders, um, and that he himself is 80 years old. And so he says, I think it's time, you know, to have real free and fair elections. Uh and then that is what is going to prompt Francisco Madero to say, like, hey, I've been thinking about this for a while. I've been traveling, I went to the United States, uh, been to France, I've been to Europe, and I'm a very cultured man and I have a really clear idea of the way forward, so I am going to, you know, announce my campaign for the presidency.

SPEAKER_03 14:39

Does he say that and then kind of immediately regret it? Because these days, 80 is when you start running for president, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

Um, I was thinking about that. We we certainly have seen cases of old men uh who uh just want to hold on to power.

SPEAKER_03 14:57

He's very progressive when it comes to that. So I think that's what you mean, isn't it, David? It's like, does he actually mean to retire, or was he forced into retirement or something like this?

SPEAKER_02 15:06

My my sense is that he wanted to hold on to power for at least a little bit more, but I think he meant that he wanted to choose his successor. Um and if we think about who Porfirio Diaz was and where he came from, um he crawled his way up from nothing. He is the son of a single of a of a of a widow who is an indigenous woman. She was a washer woman. Um so he grew up in poverty with the with a single mother, and he scales his way up through the military and only through tremendous hard work and an amazing sense of uh sagacity and just knowing the decisions what to make and how to play people off of each other. Um and then Madeiro comes along, who's really led a very comfortable life uh since he was born and hadn't really done that much with his life. I think he was a visionary, but in terms of a man with lots of practical experience, certainly in governing, he had in governance, he had virtually none. So I think that Porfirio Diaz may have been personally adverse to one not being able to choose his own successor, but also having this kind of rich kid uh thinking that he could waltz into the situation after Diaz had created, uh, in his mind at least, uh, the modern Mexico.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Now that that rich kid persona, how does uh how does Madero position that with the broader Mexican population uh against uh Diaz as sort of an oligarch? I mean, he he ends up he ends up winning, uh, but umly just?

SPEAKER_02 16:55

What's the what's the Well elections are going, campaigns are going, and then it's clear that Madero is attracting a lot of support, uh mostly from urban and people in towns, but across Mexico, really rising up, people really rising up. And Madero's argument is that Mexico's institutions are great, Mexico's laws are great, um, and now we need to work them as they're supposed to be worked. And if we could have real democracy, starting with free and fair elections, that will be the central point that will at least allow Mexicans and the Mexicans in in the in government to address many of the other social problems. And so Porfirio Díaz that throws him in jail and says he can't run for president as someone who is in jail. And um so Porfirio Díaz wins the elections, right? At that point, Madero uh walks out of prison and goes all the way to Texas and then calls for the arm to revolt. And there's a brief, there's only after a few battles, Porfirio Diaz decides that he's had enough. He's in his 80s, he's gonna take off, he's gonna go live the rest of his life out in France, and it'll be, you know, your problem. So Madero wins overwhelmingly in new elections, and then uh and then his real problems start.

SPEAKER_03 18:28

That was some real important context, I think, to understand that it wasn't like we imagine it today. Everyone just goes to the ballot pole and uh if they get lucky they win. So the US you just mentioned it, so we are in what, 1910, 1911, is that the year roughly?

SPEAKER_02 18:42

Uh-huh, 1911 at this point, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:44

So it's three years before the First World War. This is my European um head-on. Was it all peaceful at the time? Like uh looking at the neighbors um of Mexico at the time. Was there any pressure from the outside, or did all this happen in isolation pretty much in Mexico?

SPEAKER_02 19:03

This is mostly happening in isolation. The United States, of course, has its fingers, at least is very aware of everything and when it can. Uh I don't know if we can't speak of the United States as a singular entity here, but certainly US officials in Mexico are going to put their thumbs on the scale at key moments. But it is mostly an interior uh an interior dynamic. And Madero is is in power for I think 15 months before he is overthrown and murdered. Uh, and that would be the first and last free and fair elections uh in Mexico for uh the rest of the century.

SPEAKER_03 19:51

And now we know why it's a topic for today. So here's our first political murder here on uh on Pudschcast. Um question is, of course, who murdered him and why?

SPEAKER_02 20:00

Well, there's plenty of bodies uh to follow uh from this. Um he will be murdered. Um the following two presidents will also be murdered, and then between them there's plenty, plenty of blood. And when Porfirio says, okay, that's enough, they sit down and they have uh a treaty and see there, Juarez, and they create the Treaty of Juarez. And this is really go and it basically says that we will have a peaceful transfer of power, peace, peaceful transfer of power with a transition government for a little while, in which we will have uh many of the officials from Porfirio Díaz's government. They're still gonna control much of Congress, much of the courts. Um and Madero is fine with this, because again, what he really wants is there to be democracy in the in the in the uh in the manifestation of free and fair elections. For the masses below that had risen up, though, they are deeply disappointed and furious about this, what they saw as a capitulation. Um Emiliano Zapata from the state of Morelos, especially, who had joined Maile's uh responded to Madero's call because in his communities they wanted more land. Um and so then that was always the central point for people like uh Emiliano Zapata was the question of land. And the and the tri uh the treaty did not address any needs about land. Um so he's furious, he's furious, and always then deeply suspicious of Madero and his and his motivations.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

Did did M Madero actually backtrack on uh on any of his promises or commitments to Zapata? Or what was there sort of a you know expectations of obviously then um Poorly managed, but uh how did that come about?

SPEAKER_02 22:03

Well it's very difficult because they are, I think, in the end, incompatible. Um and so that's gonna obviously rent their their coalition, if we could even call it that. Um Madero promised the return of lands that had been illegally stolen from peasant villages. Um, and so this this emphasis on legality. Um the zapatistas and other peasant communities weren't really worried about that legality part of it. And it's really hard to figure out what land was stolen, what was sold, um, where even my land ended and other land began. They wanted more land, uh, and they felt like that they had a right to it because their communities relied on land. And there's also um, you know, a significant uh strain of anarchist thinkers who are joining the Zapatistas, the followers of Emiliano Zapata, also who are saying land is the a human right of uh of anyone, and you and the poor people, the only way for poor people to solve their problems is to seize land themselves.

SPEAKER_03 23:17

He's he's growing on me a bit, Madero. I have to say it. He's an idealist. We started off with, like, you know, um a Nepo baby, basically. He's always had a good life, and uh and um had this always handed over to him, then you gave it some context saying that I actually had to cross the border, there was some uprising happening there as well, and then the the old man was basically pushed into retirement. However, he only stays in power for 15 months. Um you just dropped the the biggest name of the Mexican Revolution that I think for people outside of um Americas, which we are, and many of our listeners, um, is is the name Zapata that you've just mentioned, and that's the man you'll see on our cover today. If you if you are looking at this uh podcast, then you can see that face, and that is Emiliano Zapata, is the man you can see right now on this image. Um is there a keyword that I've come across called Ayala? Does that mean anything?

SPEAKER_02 24:12

That's just the name of the town where Emiliano Zapata was when he launched his manifesto. Um and the manifesto is really important. It's called the Plan of Ayala. Uh and they're all before you, you know, uh rise up in arms, you have to issue a written plan, and it's usually named after the place where you happen to be when you did that. So early on in Tumadeiro's presidency, Zapata, um, I believe that Zapata really wanted to take advantage of the instability of the government, because this was the time when when peasants could go and take land. Um and especially because there is this split in the elites between this kind of upper middle class and the oligarchies, that is the time for the peasants to strike. Um and so he rises up against the presidency of Francisco Madero. And then so we have the oligarchy is terrified that Madero is not, is either going to ally with uh with the with the riffraff, basically, of the country, uh, or not be able to restrain the riffraff. Um, and so they're terrified that people like Zapata, dark people, poor people, uh many of them speaking Indian languages, that they are going to take over the country. And so the oligarchs then strike against Malero uh and uh overthrow him and murder him.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

There is another character in here that we haven't mentioned uh yet. Was it Pancho Villa? Um, probably Zapata. But can you tell us a little bit about him and his role?

SPEAKER_02 25:57

Pancho Billa was one of the earliest to adhere to Maledo's cause. He never renounces his cause. He is sticks with Maledo through thick and thin. He even fights against Zapata. They're later going to form an alliance. Um, and so there's all these alliances that are breaking and reforming, and it's very hard to make a very clear picture of it. But Pancho Villa is this figure from northern Mexico. We don't have these kind of millenarian Indian villages. Um the towns and villages are fairly new, 18th century, 19th century, centered around mining towns in northern Mexico. So he lives in Chihuahua, which of which is like the Texas of Mexico. It's the largest state, and it has lots of areas for cattle. I don't know, maybe like the Outback perhaps. Um it's not it's not super peopled, um, but it is fairly wealthy, and there's lots of ranching, uh, and uh, you know, it's closer to the United States, so there's lots of people who go coming back and work in the United States. And so Panchubilla is going to attract kind of uh ranch workers and mining workers and railroad workers. Uh and so this certainly the the lower classes um who are fighting for a better life, but in a way that's very different than Zapata, who is fighting for the vitality of indigenous communities uh in southern Mexico.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

So I have to correct myself there. Um uh let me get this right. Pancho Villa remained a supporter of Madeira until until Madeira was assassinated. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

Yes. And following his assassination, he is going to be uh I would say the major force to fight against the forces of reaction that had overthrown and murdered.

SPEAKER_03 27:52

And just one more time on Zapata, because he seems to be very iconic. Um but again, is he the archetype of a 20th century revolutionary when you think of uh the ones that followed later on in the 20th century? Is he is he like a template for you know the Fidel Castros of this world? There's a reason you see him on t-shirts. Yeah, correct. He popped up on my Instagram feed the other day, probably because I was researching the Mexican Revolution. But you can now go on on the web and and buy a shirt with someone on it that lived 115 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:27

And he's still relevant for somehow and to some people. Why is that?

SPEAKER_02 28:31

I don't think that he is an archetype for future revolutionaries. Uh he certainly is, maybe for like the Che Guerrara, kind of great facial hair and like piercing dark eyes, uh, a real kind of intensity to his look. It also helps that he's betrayed and murdered, um, and so he kind of has an air of martyrdom. Um but he's not uh a model for future revolutionaries because he is deeply distrustful of the state. Uh and he doesn't want to form a state, he doesn't he wants less state as possible. He would rather have just village governance. Um and so even when at one point when they're fighting against um huerta, who is the general who overthrows and and murders Madero, uh Panjo Villa and Zapata have declared an alliance to fight against Huerta. And uh they go into Mexico City. Um, and neither of them had been to Mexico City. It was a very strange and foreign place for them and their followers. Um and they even go into the presidential palace, and there's very famous photographs of this. But if you look at uh Panjo Billa, who loved being photographed and loved just sitting on his horse and having people, you know, uh take pictures of him, um, and he's got always got this great smile. Um, Zapata always, always suspicious, always has a suspicious look, and he's very uncomfortable. He's sitting in the presidential throne. Um, he wanted to burn the presidential throne. Yeah. He's like, what has the presidency, the office of the presidency, ever given us? Uh we should get rid of it. So I think he is very much a an idealist, almost a utopian, um, that later revolutionaries I think are going to be a little bit more uh have a harder uh base, an ideological explanation of their actions.

SPEAKER_03 30:37

Aaron Ross Powell Because all this takes place before the October Revolution in Russia, right? So this is but as after the first Russian Revolution in 1905, I think that's important to mention as well, which was also about land and bread and very similar goals. But is this where ideology comes in? Because we've just done an episode on the Paris Commune, 1870, 1871, is what we're talking about, where anarchy was a big thing. And anarchy not as in spray painting graffiti and knocking over bins, but anarchy as in an ideology of a non-government state. Is this was Zapata, was he a follower of that ideology of anarchy?

SPEAKER_02 31:15

I don't think he had certainly uh urban intellectual advisors who are anarchists and are uh reading and they have you know glasses and they drank espresso and uh but they but I don't think Zapata needed anyone to inform him about the an ideology. Things were very clear for him. He need for communities to uh to to be prosperous, they needed land. And uh if we have to if the only people who could have land are those who could pay for it, well that doesn't sound very fair at all. So he he he there's a kind of natural anarchism is him in him, but he's not the kind of intellectual anarchist.

SPEAKER_03 31:54

Not a Trotsky. Um so he seemed like a man of the people then. Was he very popular? Was he very popular and well known at the time? Because we've learned in some of our episodes here that from today's perspective we think of those people as those huge figures. But back in the day, if he would have done a survey, most people wouldn't have recognized or known the person. So but he had that charisma and and PR work around him de facto. Is that what happened?

SPEAKER_02 32:21

Yeah, somehow, because he's a man who didn't give speeches. Uh he's a man who uh didn't write. I'm not m there it's not clear that he was uh literate or not. Um so he's not a charismatic leader in that sense, but although he certainly did, he was able to call upon legions of very, very loyal followers, um, but without being a kind of I don't know, puffed up figure. On the contrary, his kind of approach is to be quiet and understated.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Um this is pretty intriguing to me. So how did his uh his ideology um get communicated? Like is this just um word of mouth as whispers travel through the villages around Mexico? What's the what's the mechanism?

SPEAKER_02 33:20

Well, I he has one document um that he and his um his advisors wrote and as the Plan of Ayala. And this document even takes on a kind of almost a religious figure as an article of faith. I'm sure that if you ask people who were fighting for the plan of Ayala exactly what it says, I'm sure that I imagine that they'd be rather hard-pressed to actually say what all the points were. Uh but basically it was uh we deserve land, and we're gonna fight for land, and the revolution should be about land.

SPEAKER_00 33:55

A very simple message and one that's uh really, really easy to connect.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

Simple and consistent, just consistent.

SPEAKER_03 34:01

I think I'm taking this away from today's message. Why was there a revolution in Mexico? People wanted land.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

That absolutely, absolutely. That is a central part of it. But it's always um it's always um clashing with the statists, let's call them, who want to create a new type of state, a non-oligarchic state, if you will, at least uh in its ideals. And so there's always going to be uh this clash. When revolutionaries get into power, um, they are not happy uh with peasants just taking land. They want there to be an orderly process that will go through the courts, etc. Um, and so that's gonna be a big clash.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

And if I've got this right, he actually invaded the United States at one point in this process. Um Columbus, you messaged it.

SPEAKER_02 35:03

It's Columbus, yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:05

What happened there?

SPEAKER_02 35:06

Uh well, whatever happened, it was a disaster. Um he was very upset. Um by this time he had he and Zapata had broken with the ruling revolutionaries, um, and President uh Wilson um recognizes the sovereignty of the ruling revolutionaries, uh, and Panjubiya was very upset by that. That's one explanation.

SPEAKER_03 35:33

Aaron Powell So who were the ruling revolutionaries?

SPEAKER_02 35:37

Yeah. Um that's it's a lot of names, so uh apologize.

SPEAKER_03 35:41

But no, I mean everyone knows. Did people know who was in power? Because sometimes you have situations where no one actually knows who's in power. It's just chaotic civil war. Because that's what we're in the midst of a civil war, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:50

That's yeah, so if I if I take a step step back briefly, Adero was overthrown, murdered, and then we have this reactionary uh regime, uh a military dictatorship that is all that is that that brings all of the revolutionaries together. They overthrow this reactionary military regime, um, and then Carranza Benustiano Carranza assumes the presidency. He is the head of what is the most the strongest faction. Um and the other faction is is it's is uh is created by Panjo Billa and Emiliano Zapata. They're gonna break up pretty soon as well. So we have Carranza in power and Panjo Billa and Emiliano Zapata fighting against against Carranza. And so Billa um he was upset with the U.S. government, um, but it's also there are rumors that that uh some gun uh dealer uh cheated him. So he goes into uh Columbus, New Mexico, invades a military base of all places. There's um Frederick Katz, who's the one who's written the most about Pancho Billa, um, has the I has the argument that what Billa wanted to do was to provoke an American invasion of Mexico, which would which would weaken the power of the governing uh Carranza. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 37:10

America was smart enough to not register that invasion as an attack by a state rather than a rebel group that happened to cross the border and and cause some trouble. It wasn't seen as an as a declaration of war by a sovereign nation at the time because of the chaos in Mexico.

SPEAKER_02 37:27

Exactly, exactly. So if Bio was hoping to provoke this kind of nationalist uprising against the Americans and against the government that had allowed the Americans to invade, that certainly didn't happen.

SPEAKER_03 37:39

Okay, thanks for clarifying that to us, Robert. So it wasn't the aggression of a state, the US were mature enough to understand that there is a lot of chaos in Mexico and that it was basically a rebel group crossing the border trying to cause trouble. Um what year was that roughly, just to get an idea of the timeline?

SPEAKER_02 37:56

Yeah, that was March 1916, when BF Lenz uh uh uh goes into a military base in Columbus, New Mexico. Um, and perhaps there were it was you know, people died, but it was probably the best thing that happened to Columbus, New Mexico, because that's uh no offense to people from Columbus, New Mexico. That's all people know it. There's a museum there, and that's its claim to fame.

SPEAKER_03 38:17

Oh really? So it's still famous for that today.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

Well, famous is uh perhaps uh overstating it a little bit, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:23

All right. So we just skipped a few years. So all out civil war in Mexico. Um can we just paint a picture of that? Because 1916, World War I was true and rarely happening. America wasn't involved yet, and it was a very modern mechanical war. You know, we're talking trench warfare, we're talking barbai, I guess, machine guns, aeroplanes. What was the Mexican Civil War like? Was it a bit more old-fashioned?

SPEAKER_02 38:51

Um a bit a bit more old-fashioned, but it also makes it very hard um to explain, like to children or or myself in this podcast, um, because most of the Mexican Revolution is internal fighting. It's just a civil war. And so it's very hard to uh portray a very lineal process because it's like folding over itself and and uh what where coalitions are fighting against each other. Um it was, on the one hand, it was Billa uh is famous for, you know, people in the in the in northern Mexico, they came from a long history of knowing how to ride a horse, knowing how to farm, and knowing how to shoot, um, and doing at least two of those things at the same time. And so Billa's forces were particularly strong in the cavalry. Um, and the other revolutionary uh force that they're that they're fighting against, led by, but by Carranza, um, certainly has cavalry, but mostly is strong for its uh artillery, um, and uh and especially is introducing the general of of these of the of the of the Carranza faction is uh Alvaro Obregón, um, and he is particularly studying what's going on in Europe. And so he's building trenches, he's bringing uh uh machine guns, and he's bringing in um a barbed wire, and those are of course going to decimate a cavalry.

SPEAKER_03 40:18

Which also explains the high number of victims during the Mexican Civil War, because the numbers are quite shocking, right? You you talked about in your book, I think, as well. So what what are we talking about here? It's a 10-year period, so there's a lot of time to do a lot of damage. What was it like?

SPEAKER_02 40:33

Aaron Ross Powell But it's a million people who die, it's not not a small number. Um but but it's certainly um yeah, not fortunately as kind of mechanized and modern warfare.

SPEAKER_03 40:47

So you're saying a million people, that is horrendous for a civil war. That is, you know, especially not a mechanized war. Like this is still people on horseback. Um hand-to-hand fighting. Yeah, sort of combat. Yeah, that is uh a very brutal massacre. Yeah. And and so this goes on for another four years after that incident in USA.

SPEAKER_02 41:09

Well, by then everything is on the decline. The fighting is on the decline. By 1917, um there's still some battles and there's still uprisings across the state. But um the faction led by uh Benustiano Carranza and Alvaro Obregón effectively gets the upper hand over Pancho Billa and Emiliano Zapata. 1916-1917 is when they finally sit down and start hammering out, for example, the new constitution.

SPEAKER_03 41:42

And sorry, who's who's the one who got the upper hand? I didn't catch that name.

SPEAKER_02 41:46

Yeah, it it's uh Benustiano Carranza, who is the president of Mexico, and his main general, Álvaro Obregón.

SPEAKER_04 41:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

They will have their own problems, and Alvaro Obregón will uh lead an uprising that will kill uh the Carranza and Obregón. It never stopped.

SPEAKER_03 42:08

That is worse than the French Revolution, where everyone gets a go, but at the end they're all dead. Is is that pretty much what's happening in Mexico?

SPEAKER_00 42:15

Yeah, it's very close. Uh I think there's one piece in the chain that we're that we're missing just in the in the chronology of this. Uh Pueta came to power uh after Madero was assassinated. That's the general, right? Uh and he was kind of a military dictator, right? Um now, how does power transition from Pueta to Carranza?

SPEAKER_02 42:37

So he's overthrown. Um and um Carranza assumes the presidency de facto. There's not an election, but there is he's the man who has, I would say, the broadest support and the broadest legitimacy for an interim presidency. Um and there's not going to but then there's going to be elections in 1920. So he is the president from uh 19, he's kind of a military leader the whole time, um, but he's the interim president from 1917 till 1920, uh, when there are new elections.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

Okay. That makes sense. All the all the dots are joined up. Now you're missing 1917. And the case and the Constitution. Yes. I don't want to talk about that just a little bit because it sounds like the co-constitution was written um in a very aspirational sense. Um it's not as if it came into practice as it was put down on paper, um, but sort of set the scene for how Mexico has developed since then.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

So th they sit down uh in the winter between 1916 and 1817, um and they look at the the previous constitution, um, which was they all revered and they, you know, but needed to change. The the earliest the earlier constitution. Was very liberal in the sense that it favored free markets, it favored democracy, and it favored secularization. They were all in favor, in theory at least, with democracy and very in favor of secularization, anti clericalism, which they enhanced, but they were very suspicious of the free market aspects, especially because land and also kind of exploitation of workers were massive grievances. They created mechanisms in the new constitution for the government to intervene in both to uh distribute land, uh to to promote, to specifically to promote social equality and intervene in the economy uh to over to ensure the well-being of the working class.

SPEAKER_03 44:54

Um you just touched on something that I haven't understood and I'd love to understand it. With civil wars, there's usually at least for for at the start and for a while, there are clear lines there of what side you attach yourself to, right? Which one you pick the rifle and your horse up for, which side you fight on. I don't see that here at all. I don't understand. So the Spanish Civil War, fascists versus Republicans, Greek Civil War, communists versus you know conservatives, um Yugoslav Civil War, ethnic lines, other wars along sectarian lines. What what did people like how did they decide which camp to fight on? And I assume the majority again didn't even want anything to do with it, they just wanted to live their lives. That's usually what civil wars are like, but you sort of pushed into a corner and then because your brother's there and you you end up in that camp. But what what was it? Was it the only thing I'm taking away from now is is country versus city. Is that the only division that was in that country? Because they're all Catholics, they all speak Spanish. Like where was the division and why 10 years of war?

SPEAKER_02 46:04

Well well, that's the question. That's the question, Oliver. And um, if you get that, then you might come, you know, take my job. Um But um it is very difficult. But it's not so it certainly is rural versus urban, and there's lots of racial ideas and class ideas that track with the ra uh urban versus rural divide. But um we could also think about it as regions. Mexico is a very regional country. It's divided by massive mountain ranges, which is one of the reasons why it has such cultural uh and linguistic uh variety, for example, six some 60 different languages uh spoken in Mexico. Um and so there, I think people are choosing by their class uh interests, certainly, but also by their regional. So that's why in the end, uh Billa and Zapata, even though they would get together and talk about how the rich people don't understand what Mexico is about, and they're kind of bonding over their the the poverty that they lived through, um, they they their agendas are also very different, just because the regions and the economies of that sorry, the economies and the histories of their regions are very different.

SPEAKER_03 47:24

It's just like we actually you could all sit down and sort this out in a game of cards or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

I think it's too complicated for that. Um I can I agree with your point of view and the question that's being asked there, all but uh I guess my impression of this is that it's so multifocal um and multifaceted that all sorts of things going on all the time. Um I'm a person who loves to try and like summarize things and break it down to a single sentence, and I just can't do it with this one.

SPEAKER_02 47:54

Yeah, especially when it turns into a civil war, then it gets very confusing. Um but we could still see kind of two revolutions at once. We have people who want to form, at least in theory, a more democratic, a more just state. Um, and then we have this uprising from below and who are very suspicious of the state, and they see that they've already had, they already have their people, they already have their guns, they are going to take advantage of the disorderliness of the country to seize their moment. They're afraid that once a new state consolidates, then their opportunity to grab land for themselves and their communities that will have passed. And the kind of state makers, uh this is precisely the kind of disorderliness that's going to undermine their ability to make a a more democratic state. And so they turn increasingly authoritarianism and uh conduct a kind of uh scorched-earth battles against these peasant warriors uh because they they're de they are destabilizing the entire country.

SPEAKER_03 49:14

Global context, we we started off uh early asking, and you said it's pretty much an internal conflict. But as World War I progresses and America enters the war, and we all might remember Americans were sort of laughed at at the start of the war because they were pretty much cowboys from a European point of view, but then they, you know, they they even needed um British helmets and stuff. They didn't even have steel helmets uh to begin with, and they were literally on cavalry and they got a rude awakening on the Western Front. But um, is it true that Germany was trying to have influence on Mexico just to have that access to the American border from the south and open up another front? Was there talks during the Mexican Civil War that they could have become a party of World War I?

SPEAKER_02 49:56

No, no, I think that is very much overstated. Okay. There is this famous Zimmerman uh telegraph uh promising that Mexico, that if Mexico, you know, allows Germany to enter, uh to invade the United States from Mexico, that Germany would return uh the states that the United States had taken uh in the war of 1847, 1848. Um no one in Mexico took that very seriously, and I think it's been largely uh yeah overstated.

SPEAKER_00 50:27

Trevor Burrus, Jr. One of the things I put a circle around is in 1913 what's described as the Ten Tragic Days, which I think culminates in uh in the assassination of Madeira. Um I think there's an episode in that. Um What do you think? Like what are the what are the uh kind of pivotal moments that we can uh spend a bit of time on in maybe another episode uh to uh to try and uh break this one down a bit further?

SPEAKER_02 50:52

Well, I think a lot about moments and I and I call them like if only moments. Um if only Porfirio Diaz uh hadn't clung to power and thrown Madero in jail. Um if only um you know Zapata would have been perhaps more patient with and see if the government of Madero would have been able to deliver some of the goods in terms of land. I don't think that's possible. But but we could look at moments when you just want to tell people, you know, from this decision, there's gonna be a lot of bloodshed. Um And then so those are the moments when you want to tell them, no, turn turn left instead of right. Um make a different decision. Um, this won't benefit you and it won't benefit the nation. Um but that also allows us to dig deeper into what were the motivations and what did people see as as possible events. Um certainly the the ten tragic days, uh which culminate, as you said, in the overthrow and murder of Madero is fundamental in that um and uh you know lots of other features. We didn't even talk about Alvaro Obregón, who loses an arm in a battle with Pancho Billa, but manages to keep his arm. Um and then after he was murdered himself, uh his arm is placed in a kind of mausoleum uh monument to himself. Now you've got me. Now they're using it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:28

Someone loses an arm, keeps an arm, loses an arm, and then it it gets like a Lenin-style mausoleum that people can get down.

SPEAKER_02 52:33

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 52:35

That's fantastic. We shouldn't laugh, many people died. But um what I'm always interested in in walking away with, so you sort of said before it it died down in the end, really. I assume there was a lot of fatigue, obviously after so many years of conflict. How did it in the end stabilize? How did how did Mexico end up in a in a post-Civil War state? Because again, well, one was over by 1920, but there was also the Spanish flu, and I I assume that affected it as well, because people just died on top of war. Um, how did it calm down? Were people just too exhausted?

SPEAKER_02 53:09

Well, you'd think, but it actually calmed down through more waves of violence. Um, every time there was an election, um there was also an uprising among disgruntled revolutionaries who felt that they were being passed over unfairly, so they would rise up and um they would usually be lined up and and killed, uh, a kind of rash of executions. Um and so it is going to continue to be very bloody uh until the late 1920s, 1928, when Albert Obregón is murdered by a Catholic activist. Um that is when uh the revolutionaries who are managed to stay alive um sit down and make the uh architecture of a new stable authoritarian state.

SPEAKER_03 54:05

So we're back to square one. Is this where we start before the Civil War? Seriously. Is it where we started? With it with a stable authoritarian regime? But not oligarchic.

SPEAKER_00 54:17

Okay. Okay, okay. So what uh what what would you say the um I mean we talked about what it feels like to be a um an average Mexican living in Mexico in 1930 and have that kind of film. Roll the quite forward to 1925. What's changed? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:34

Because the new state in particular is focused on building itself into the undisputed central institution in Mexican society. And of course, they had to deal with the other major institution in Mexican society, which was the Catholic Church. And so in the 1920s, the government um not only makes new laws, but starts to enforce uh these and old laws. They're severely going to limit um the uh the power and the kind of scope of the Catholic Church, which is going to provoke yet another uprising. And then, you know, the the Great Depression comes, which is going to be but by then by then people are absolutely exhausted. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 55:23

Wow, that I've learned a lot today. Um but I think the two names that will stick because we're just getting started on this topic, is Pancho Villa, obviously, and Emiliano Zapata. Can we just find out what happened to them?

SPEAKER_02 55:39

Yeah, they both end up murdered, of course. Pancho V Pancho Villa first. Um he negotiat when the wars are basically over, he negotiates his withdrawal from politics. He says, Give me land in Chihuahua for me and my men and their families, and I will remain out of politics. Um and then he breaks that promise. Well, he didn't think he was breaking it, but he thought his promise had lasted long enough. Um, then in 1924, he starts to get a bit involved in politics, and he is swiftly uh murdered. Uh Emiliano Sapata is betrayed and tricked and uh murdered in 1919.

SPEAKER_00 56:26

That that's actually a really kind of complicated and and interesting setup, that one. So that might be something we need to talk about separately as well.

SPEAKER_03 56:34

I've come across one quote that I sort of want to use to finish off the episode almost, which is I'm an outlaw, but the government are the real bandits. Um Pancho Villa. Um it's a great one, and it reminded me of a protagonist we have here in Australia called Ned Kelly. Um, and I think we'll do an episode on Ned Kelly one day, who was um a bit before that time, but uh a young man who also rebelled against the colonial overlords in Victoria in the very south of Australia, and that could be a quote from him. Um that was the exact same um story. However, um, we probably want to finish off by looking at it 110, 115 years later. How is the Mexican Revolution perceived today in Mexico? So when when kids go to school history lessons, how do they how do they understand the Mexican Revolution? Is it celebrated, is it commemorated, is it forgotten, is it not talked about? What's today's attitude?

SPEAKER_02 57:33

It's celebrated, it's talked about, it is memorialized in street names, in the names of buildings, um, on days of the holidays. But to that degree, it's like people know that the where Madero Avenue is, but they don't necessarily know who Madero was. And so the day of the revolution, which uh recognize which commemorates the day of uh when um Madero first called for openings, um all the children uh get together and they do a a parade and the kids will dress up with big mustaches and bullet belts, and and all the girls will wear me traditional Mexican clothes and they'll have ribbons in their hair. And it's this day of festivity, um, but it's not really much of a connection with the actual uh revolution, um, which is too complicated to explain to school children. So uh, you know, there's the monument to the Mexican Revolution uh where lots of revolutionary leaders are buried and they all hated each other. Um and so that it's very hard to, and especially since the revolution eventually gives gives uh rise to an authoritarian state, there's a sense that this is absolutely our history and we're very proud of it. Um, but any radical elements are purged.

SPEAKER_03 58:58

Okay. Oh, I've learned a new word recently. It's called Disney Fight. So from what you just said, so the Mexican Revolution is is Disney Fight a bit, is it? Among young people.

SPEAKER_02 59:07

Um yeah, but without the fun, I mean, except for the parade, which is which is nice.

SPEAKER_03 59:11

Yeah. But Robert, you've given me a really good insight in um especially the timeline, the complexity, it is so complex, and we need to come back to this topic. But for anyone who does want to dive a bit deeper, your book is a really good starting point, the Mexican Revolution. Uh Robert will link the book on our website, just go on putcast.com. Dave, um, when I threw this topic at you, what did you know to begin with? And what do you know now?

SPEAKER_00 59:38

Uh well, at the outset I knew that there was a revolution. Yeah. Uh did I understand any of the complexity and the machinations? No. Uh definitely heard of the character Emiliana is apart, as I think a lot of people have. Um, did I understand who he was, what he was about, and why he's uh sort of still famous today? Um I think I've I've developed a bit of a uh bit of a soft spot for Poncho Villa. Um he seems he seems like my my kind of a character, and uh I don't know why, but I've taken a bit of a shine to him and I'm gonna read a little bit more about him. Yeah I do want to come back and get into uh kind of some of the um more technical little little uh uh periods of time and understand them in a bit more detail as a way of explaining all of the uh all of the complexity around it. I think that's a good approach for us to take. We'll recommend another episode and that's important as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:27

Yeah, Robert, do you have a favorite protagonist from the Mexican Revolution?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:30

I don't like any of them.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:36

I'm I'm glad you you're dedicating your professional life to this topic, then no, no, I no, I wouldn't say that.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:43

No, no, no. I have I have I I I have a very soft spot for uh Francisco Madero. I like Banjo Villa.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:50

Aspects of him are a little bit too much. Emiliano Zapata, the kind of the utopian fighter. Um Alvaro Obregon loses his arm and has the the the wherewithal to keep it. Um I don't know if people carried around like coolers just in case you know members were gonna be lost and they wanted to keep them. Um but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:07

So David, that was us today. Mexican Revolution. We had such a good expert with Robert on the call. Um, yeah, you just said we have to come back home. We we absolutely don't.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:18

This is uh this is an little place of history.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:21

And I feel as I would just watch it.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:27

And I want to find out about that. Um obviously that's uh that's that's the big shock moment. That's the one we need to put to to get, you know, clickbait and out there. So I want to thank you for listening. And if you've only listened and you wanna see what this looks like when we're uh being interrogated by ourselves, we are now on YouTube, just check out putcast on YouTube. Please help us eat the algorithm. We have pretty tough topics on our podcast, and I know it doesn't usually go viral because uh there's usually not a happy outcome. That's why I thought we got Disney in there just to Yeah, um trick the algorithm a bit. But yeah, please share with your friends, just forward a link to a podcast and leave a comment that really makes a difference. It's an easy thing for you to do. And if you have any suggestions, any future topics, send us an email to putcast at gmail.com or visit our website at putchcast.com and keep the revolution going.