Working Parent Guilt, Good Enough Parenting and the Flexibility We Need - with Rachel Vecht

In this episode of Challenge Your Guilt, I’m joined by Rachel Vecht, founder of Educating Matters, to talk about working parent guilt, perfectionism and why “good enough” parenting may be far healthier than trying to get everything right.

Rachel has spent 25 years supporting parents, carers and organisations at the intersection of parenting, education, wellbeing and work. She is also a mother of four and speaks honestly about the gap between knowing the parenting theory and living the reality yourself.

Together, we explore why parenting has started to feel like a competitive sport, how guilt shows up for working mothers, and why every decision can feel like a trade-off.

We discuss:

•  why perfectionism can undermine connection with our children 
•  what “good enough” parenting looks like in practice 
•  how short bursts of focused one-to-one time can make a difference 
•  the importance of boundaries, values and modelling self-care 
•  why flexibility should be a normal way of working, not a special perk 
•  how managers can better support maternal mental health 
•  why supporting fathers and carers matters too 
•  how to tell the difference between guilt that reflects your values and guilt driven by outside expectations 

Rachel also shares the idea of creating a family mission statement, helping families become clearer about what they stand for and how they want life at home to feel.

For any mother who feels she is holding everything together by a thread, this conversation is a reminder that your children do not need a flawless performance. They need connection, safety and the experience of being deeply loved. 

Rachel’s resources

Rachel’s free Parenting Matters Masterclass shares practical tools and strategies for raising children to thrive:

You can also download her guide: What does it mean to be a “Good Enough” Parent?

The guide explores emotional coaching, special time, values, boundaries, modelling, self-regulation and how to define what “good enough” means for your own family. 

Find Rachel at educatingmatters.co.uk and follow Rachel Vecht on LinkedIn for more on parenting, working parenthood and family-friendly workplaces.

Find Belinda

You can buy Challenge Your Guilt: How to Flourish in Motherhood, Work and Life or apply for a free call to explore coaching and workplace support through the links in the show notes.

Subscribe to Challenge Your Guilt wherever you listen to podcasts, and share this episode with another mother who needs to hear it.

The guilt you have been carrying was never yours to hold. It is time to put it down.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

You're listening to Challenge Your Guilt with me, Belinda Jane Batt, maternal guilt expert, positive psychology coach, and author of Challenge Your Guilt: How to Flourish in Motherhood, Work and Life. This is a podcast for mothers ready to stop internalising guilt and start flourishing in every aspect of life. Let's dismantle maternal guilt, one conversation at a time. Hello and welcome to another episode of Challenge Your Guilt. Today I am joined by Rachel Vecht, founder of Educating Matters, an organisation that supports working parents and carers and helps employers create more family-friendly human workplaces. Rachel has spent many years working at the intersection of parenting, education, well-being and the workplace, supporting parents to navigate the very real challenges of raising children whilst also trying to sustain careers, relationships, and a sense of self. Her work speaks so directly to many of the themes we explore on this podcast: the pressure to be the perfect parent, the guilt that so often comes with work and care, the invisible load mothers carry, and the importance of creating workplace cultures where parents are not just expected to cope but are properly supported. In today's conversation, we're going to explore working parent guilt, maternal mental health at work, flexibility, and why good enough parenting might not be a compromise at all, but one of the healthiest things we can offer ourselves and our children. So on that note, Rachel, welcome, a very warm welcome to Challenge Your Guilt. Warm, literally.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

You're welcome. Would you like to give us a little bit of a um an intro to you personally, you know, your motherhood journey and like if anything anything you might like to share about whether you have experienced guilt for you know as a starting point in your own parenting journey?

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Yes, with pleasure. So I actually started out um my career as a primary school teacher. I was fascinated by child development, attachment, everything to do with like learning, educating children. And parents would, I did that for about seven years, and so many parents would come to me for guidance and advice. So when it came to having my own child, my first child 25 years ago, I kind of should have known what I was talking about, you'd think, in theory. Um, but I realized, first of all, when I was a teacher, I realized that most of the learning happens outside the classroom, which is why when I had my first child, I decided to shift from working with children to giving parents the tools and strategies to support and raise their kids. But also I realized how difficult it is when you're actually doing it yourself, um, and how challenging it is to just you know be able to show up at work and be there for your kids, and so I had to find a way to have more autonomy and flexibility around how I work, which obviously not everyone is able to do, but there have been plenty and plenty of moments. I'm I'm perceived to be. I mean, I've been doing this work with global organisations for 25 years, and I'm you know, sometimes people call me a parenting expert, but I don't really like that term because there are the whole point I think why people resonate with my work is I'm very open about when I've completely messed up. Um, and there are plenty of stories around that, um, and so many times that I've felt um, you know, guilty about whether I'm doing enough for my kids, and even I'm like I've read hundreds of books on parenting and psychology and done so many courses, but thinking, is my approach right? And you know, in my head comparing myself to others.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Yeah, we've we've been there, haven't we? I that's the thing. I often think when you're working in it as deeply as we are, it's it can be really challenging because you're just in it all the time. I was I was reflecting on this the other day. There's no like there's no off switch really when you're supporting parents through the challenges and also living through the challenges yourself at the same time. It kind of hit me the other day, it's almost sometimes like a little bit of a form of burnout that you that you go through because some but then we understand it, you know, so much.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Like I there are lots of people as well that support parents in various ways, but until you've actually experienced having a child yourself, it's really hard to like get underneath of some of those challenges, I feel.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Yeah, absolutely. No, absolutely. I wouldn't be doing anything else in the world, but yeah, it it's funny sometimes having living those challenges daily and supporting other parents to it at the same time. It's a it's a strange um dual existence, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Sometimes you're like, if people could see me now.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

Yeah, yeah, a lot of that time, trust me. A lot of that time. I live in a very small town where when we first moved here and I I was doing this work, I was kind of like stepping out of the front door and just like try just praying that people wouldn't see the state I was in, you know, like dragging my screaming children to to school and like my hair all over the place. And I just thought, my god, you know, people thought my my brand is flourishing mother. I could not be less flourishing right now. How how absurd. Um, but um, so let's talk about this um this perfect parent thing because it's just uh it it's it's driven me nuts ever since you know having children that that we live in this kind of allegedly forward, increasingly progressive society, or at least we we hope we might be able to say that at some point. And yet there is still this ridiculous notion that we need to be perfect in every aspect, you know, of work and home. And I I guess I just my question for you is like, why why are we still falling for this? Why do we still um believe that we have to strive for this perfection that doesn't exist?

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Yeah, I mean, we we're in this culture where there's this kind of self self-sacrificing ideal parent and also filled with so much conflicting advice, and and it's almost like we we lose our identities, not only like in terms of the amount of work we need to do, but in the service of our children, like we exist to kind of make them happy, and actually, in the long run, that's not going to give them the life skills that they need to succeed as adults, and we're in this like world of comparing and judging and feeling fear and guilt and rushing around. Like, I usually say, like, parenting's become like a competitive sport, which isn't good for parents or children, and of course, I think in the day in the times we live now, social media just magnifies all of this, and also the amount of information, different information we can access. So we've got like this mistaken impression every other parent is pulling it off, but you can never know what's going on beside closed doors, and especially for working parents, you know, because you perhaps feel guilty about the time that you're not spending with your children, when you are with them, you need to kind of make every moment you know perfect and be the best parent you can be. And I would say, you know, being a parent is the most responsible and challenging job you can ever have, which also comes with the least amount of training. So perfection at home or at work is is really unachievable. One of the things I love to say to new parents is that expectations are resentments waiting to happen. So we also need to think about like the unrealistic expectations we have of ourselves, and it's not for women, it's not just when it comes perfection when it comes to parenting. You've got this expectation, you should be financially independent, endlessly patient, emotionally available to everyone at home and at work, professionally ambitious, physically attractive. You know, the list just goes on and on. So that's I mean, I could talk forever, but that's what I think in answer to that. Um, and yeah, it's just I'm a recovering perfectionist in in many areas, but I realize like it's just not an achievable goal.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Yeah, I yeah, I completely agree with you, and and I would say I'm the same. So, so what's the antidote to it? It's the antidote to this um embracing the notion of good enough parenting.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

So I I'm a massive fan of that term, and it's not just to make people feel better, and I get that you know, ambitious mothers in the workplace they want to get everything right in every part of their life. But I think what happens is we can be so focused on parenting and everything we need to achieve that we actually lose sight of the most important element, which is our relationship and connection with our child. Now, I I don't think I said at the beginning, I've got four children between the ages of 25 and 16, and now I've understood that three of them are adults. The most important thing, and the way to have an influence in the long run, is really always bringing it back to like that relationship and connection, and thinking, yes, especially when they're young, you can get in all the logistics of you know everyday life, and you're like a banker and a PA and a cook and an entertainment director and all the rest of it, but um, it's what you've really got is these 18 years to give them the skills that that that they need to succeed in life, so it's not about this pressure to create a perfect family time, but really getting your own definition, and this is what's really important your own definition of what good enough looks like for you, according to your values, your priorities, what you think is really important. And the definition of good enough is really subjective. There are cultural differences, it can be impacted on you know the community you're in, how you were raised by your own parents. I mean, I've got my definition of what I think good enough is. Do you want me to Yeah, I'd love to know it. So, so there are a few, this kind of comes back to some of like the core parenting strategies that I teach. Um, but things like um being like one of my favourite tools is to be an emotion coach for your child, so being nurturing, loving, supporting, supportive, almost like an emotional container vessel for your child. There's so much concern about children's mental health. So being able to sit with, acknowledge, and empathize with your child. Um, something, another thing is like it's not about the quality of time, the quantity of time, but but really I often find that working parents are much more conscious that these little windows of time that they do have with their kids, you know, at the beginning and end of the day or at the weekends, that that you're really trying to like put your phone away. And I I teach this idea of special time, which might only be 10 or 15 minutes, but it's frequent, predicts, predictable, scheduled, one-on-one time that you're really mindful and conscious of being with them. Um, I would say, you know, this idea of like you're raising a human being to be the best version of themselves to get really clear on your family values and how you model those. So about 80% of parenting is is modelling. So, what does that look like? Um, children do feel safe when they have those like clear boundaries, so that's really important. Um, and things like being able to take care of yourself is good enough parenting. So, learning how to regulate your own emotions and reactions, and to be able to stay calm and support your children, you also need to be able to um look after yourself. Um, and and for me, you know, I call my business educating matters, but instilling in children a love of learning, like my youngest is doing GCSEs at the moment, that doesn't mean they have to be highly academic and get the best exam grades, but helping them to grow, find their passion, their interests, um, adopt a growth mindset, and really love the child you have unconditionally for who they are, um, not for what they accomplish or the child you wish for. So literally sit yourself down, get a piece of paper, two columns, what's good enough and what is too much. Try and see where you fit in with that.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

I love that. All of that really resonates with me. I think something that came up when you were speaking was when I was researching my book, I came across a study that said that that talked about how even 15 minutes a day of uh in intense focus time, you know, child-led uh focus time with each of your children makes a huge difference. So, which I extrapolated to mean, you know, for any mother that was feeling guilty, particularly, you know, a working mother who isn't able to spend as much time with her child as she might want to. Um, you know, I felt like that was something that might make make those mothers feel, you know, a bit better. Well, it's like it's you don't have to be there omnipresent 24 hours a day, but trying to sort of remember that 15-minute rule. The second part of what I was thinking was it's very challenging. I find it, because at the moment my children are five and eight, and I I find that very challenging to do when I'm often the default parent on my own, to give each of them that time. Like home and you and I wondered if you had, because obviously you've got four four children, did you say? Yeah, four. Yeah, so you've got four children. So I wondered whether you had any advice for that. Because even though you know, like you can think about oh yeah, no, this is what we need to do, but actually in practice it can be very hard, especially when they're quite young, to do that one-on-one.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

So just wondered whether you had I mean the advice, the the gold standard is every day. Now, for me, with four kids when they were young, that would have been an hour a day. It's like totally not achievable. So, even if you start with like once a week, and if your partner's around at the weekend, you like swap if you have a partner, there are also single parents that don't have that option. It's also like preparing it. So, how can I be with my eight-year-old? And my I know my five-year-old is doing something that they won't interrupt, so it's like setting it up, you know. At five, they are old enough to kind of be independently doing something for 10 or 15 minutes, but you can't just like announce you're going off with the eight-year-old without preparing the five-year-olds and let them know that they're gonna get that same um amount of time as well, um, and and really preparing them about the importance of like not be not interrupting their sibling. The other option is to put the younger one to bed and and then do it um with the older one. But the the trick is like there's no agenda, it's not to kind of teach them something, or it's like really to to just be in their world, and and I think what our children want, in fact, the same for the work, what anybody wants in any relationship, whether that's parent and child, uh with a partner, with a friend, with a work colleague, is to really feel like heard and understood, and you can do that in 10 minutes. Like, if your child's interrupting you and you're on a work call or answering me, like I would love to see that, I would love to talk to you about this. Let's save that for special time, and the fact that they know that this protected time is coming up can often like it's just all about you know, I have this whole theme about setting up for success as well, but it's like getting your children to understand how you're approaching things.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Yeah, that's good, and I and I think I'm reflecting on my current experiences of probably needing to do a little less bribery with my youngest and try and like enact some of these things that's that are a bit you know going to help me more in the long term because I I sometimes you know feel like I lean too heavily on props for you know trying to make time with the older one by giving the younger one something, but then that ex developing that expectation that something will be given, you know, rather than like you say, it needs to be more kind of what's going to be given is the time and the love and the attention, not the magazine. Like we had we had a two-hour meltdown about a magazine yesterday. I'm not even going to go into because it was I'm still talking about it's connection, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:19

That is the gift, it doesn't have to be it's the experience together. That's also like if you are having some kind of reward, that's a whole nother conversation. But I would do an experience together, maybe as a family, you know, or we get to make dinner together rather than like a thing, football stickers for my my brother with his younger kids or whatever it is, because then it's like how many at what point does the reward become big enough?

SPEAKER_01 16:45

I know, yeah. We've we've been having that recently. It's like reward charts and stuff, you know, just get completely out of hand. And we had exactly that yesterday. It was kind of like she wanted a magazine, but I said I get, but we had a magazine over the weekend for something else, you know. So I'm not going to get you another magazine today because good God, those things are so expensive and so completely pointless, you know, they last like five seconds. Um, so yeah, no, that was a that's a that's a fresh memory that I'm still still trying to get over from yesterday. Um, okay, so let's talk a bit about um you know, working mothers, particularly, because you know, this is another area of expertise of yours that I would love to to discuss. Um how the mums that you have worked with in your experience, like how does guilt tend to show up for working mothers? So, you know, when it comes to their children's education, behaviour, emotional well-being, anything really like what do you see? How does it present?

SPEAKER_00 17:33

Well, first of all, I don't think I've ever met a working mother and had a proper long conversation with them without that G word popping up. Um, I do like the other day, I did a big session um for Sainsbury's. We had about 56 women about to come back to work, and one mother said, I feel guilty for not feeling guilty about how excited I am to come back. So even if you're not feeling guilty, you feel guilty because you think you're supposed to, and it's it's really like every choice you make feels like a trade-off for something else, and then that starts to make you feel less confident about those choices. So, you know, you could be doing a lot of comparing yourself to others, feeling like an imposter, especially when I speak to people who have like a whole team and they're in quite senior roles, they're just like, Oh my gosh, if people could see like what is going on in my house, you know, this respect that I have at work, and then what's really going on at home, and all these, you know, different decisions I'm having to make about the school my child goes to, or like, am I being a very permissive parenting? I'm actually not in charge at all, and you know, if my child is um having challenges with their emotional well-being, like, is that my fault? Have I not like shown up with them, up for them enough? And we do loads of like ruminating over the past and decisions and catastrophizing into the future, and there are so many like difficult decisions that we need to make about our children's future, and so much of what goes on is actually driven by the thoughts in our head, it's not actually the reality, but we're amazing at kind of having these conversations with ourselves in our heads, and you know, some guilt can be positive, it's natural, and if it makes you like stop and question your motives and change them for the better, you know, that's going to be an inevitable, especially if you have really high standards. But when you keep hearing, I should be doing this and I should be doing that, it's like a red flag, I think, indicating you're doing something, not necessarily because you want to or because that's the right thing for you or your family, but because you're under some kind of pressure or feeling guilt from an outside influence, so it's constantly like adjusting and reframing every single age and stage brings new joys and new challenges. Also, workplaces focus very much on that transition back to work, but I see parents of much older children or teenagers like feel like I know they're independent, but actually they really need me and I need to be around more. So, you know, being able to adjust and reprioritize and ask for help and you know, accept yourself. And I think a way to kind of help with guilt is be really, really clear about your goals, your purpose, your values, and as much as possible, thinking, are these decisions that I'm making aligning with those values and like that path? Um, and if they're not, like how can I how can I look at them differently?

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Absolutely, and that speaks very much to the way that I talk about guilt, how you framed it just then, about it, you know, there can be helpful guilt and there which which helps you to maybe realign your behaviour with your values more closely, and then there's unhelpful guilt, which I I talk about, you know, being the a lot of the time is the societal um systemic pressure that's coming from outside of us.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

We are literally never gonna have enough time to do everything we want to do. Like that was a feeling even before we had kids, so it's like we do have a choice around like how we show up, and we you know, there's loads of unpredictability and uncertainty in the world anyway, but especially if you're a parent, but we have we can still control like how we you know uh respond to these things that are happening to us and how we use our time.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

And I think another thing that that came up when you're speaking for me is just you know the importance of role modelling healthy behaviours towards ourselves as well, because I think when we start to struggle, you know, our children see us struggle. And we can, you know, tell ourselves that we can we run ourselves ragged and no one's noticing. But the reality is that that it is noticing and it's coming out in probably behaviours that feel less aligned with our values that we don't particularly want to be coming out. You know, I I actually said to my son the other day, um, you know, he was saying, You never play with me. And I I said, Well, that's not true that at all that I never play with you. But right now, um, you know, it's the first day of the holidays. Mummy and daddy are really tired, we've had really, really busy weeks, you've had really busy weeks. Um, you know, it was actually, you know, his we've recently had his birthday, and you know, I said, There's loads of birthday stuff coming up. Mummy, mommy and daddy just need an hour or two, just you know, and and he really didn't like it, but I felt so sure in the the value, my values in that moment and the necessity for for me to just have an hour because I knew that if I didn't have it, you know, it and like fortunately, I've done the work with the guilt, you know, I still get it all the time, but at least I've done enough of it to be able to say, right, I'm feeling guilty that I'm saying no to his plea for playtime, but I'm also feeling you know very sure of my own boundaries right now in this moment that I'm feeling depleted enough to know that if I play with him now, it's gonna come out somehow some way that I don't want it to come out, you know, in an hour.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

So, do you have anything to speak to you around like boundaries and role modelling and that kind of I mean I can't remember if I said this before, but I I would say about 80% of parenting is to do with modelling. Um, and you know, how we feel physically and emotionally lies at the bedrock of everything else that's going to impact how we show up for our kids, how we show up at work, and working parents in particular, especially mothers, it's when we're really overwhelmed and pressed for time that we completely neglect ourselves, but it's when we need to kind of really take care of ourselves. So, what you model to your kids is absolutely crucial. You know, I say the same thing to lie managers, what you're modeling to your your team and your colleagues, you know, if you're sending emails at to you know one o'clock at night, there's the in the morning, whatever, there's the expectation that that's what you you know your team is doing. Um, so so it's immensely important to kind of set those boundaries, but just just talk to your children about it and what it and show that you're protecting your time. Because if not, if you just like literally sacrifice yourself on that altar of parenthood, and especially if you're you know working as well, you'll just end up feeling really possibly even really resentful, but definitely exhausted and not be able to kind of stay grounded and calm.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

Absolutely, and I think that's a really nice segue into talking about in the workplace. Um, you know, how would how do you think that workplaces and managers can get better at noticing and supporting maternal mental health without, you know, obviously without being intrusive, but I think there is this kind of culture that needs to be improved in many organizations to really recognise when a mother is struggling. What would you what what kind of advice would you have there?

SPEAKER_00 25:11

I mean, obviously it's especially hard in the workplace because you're worried that you're like overstepping a line and you don't want to be in too intrusive or too personal. But um, one in five new mothers experience um challenges with uh relating to maternal mental health, and organizations are really good at signposting and sending information and saying we have this um, you know, this is our EAP, this is the phone number, we're hosting an event, we're putting a poster up in the communal area, but that's not really addressing the issue. Like the real support is about culture and belonging and how a person actually feels at work. It's not about the policies and the procedures, it's what they perceive in between the lines, even through like non-verbal communication. So, do they have a manager or colleagues that really get it? Do they feel open to share their common challenges without worrying that their colleague thinks they're not going to be, you know, up for the job? Can they block out time in their diary and actually label it as you know, sports day or pickup without needing to make excuses? And in the workplace, it's not just saying to someone, you know, how are you? Yeah, fine, how are you? Like, fine, we're really good at saying fine, but you know, how are you really? and checking in again, like a week later and even two or three months later. And if you notice that someone's seems a bit flat, or um it's like, you know, is there anything that I I can help you with? Um, trying to not overschedule and fill their diary and protect um their time and create space for that dialogue that feels psychologically safe so you can genuinely connect with other parents, and that's where, like a lot of the work that I do with organizations, I'm obviously sharing loads of practical tools and strategies and talking about common challenges, but also creating that space, and that's why I love all these employee networks to normalize what those challenges are, otherwise, very often people won't open up and talk about them.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

And and another topic that you talk about a lot and is very important to talk about is the need for flexibility. So, when you're a working parent, and again, I think this is an area where a lot of companies are still very much backwards and coming forwards. So, you know, perhaps you could give me your uh sort of opinion, I guess, on why flexibility is so important for parents and carers, um, and and you know what maybe misunderstandings there might be around that from an employer perspective.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a mistake for organisations to see flexibility as a perk, like we're being so generous to give this to you, and it's something that kind of needs to be earned or justified, or when flexibility translates to being less committed. Um, and flexible flexibility should not mean like career punishment, like if you if you have this flexibility, you're not going to get that same career progression because the workplace is largely still very much designed around that outdated model where you know the father is working and the wife or partner is doing the unpaid labour at home. The other big mistake in terms of framing around flexibility, and I've been saying this for so long, it's not just something that working parents need. And I think after COVID this became really apparent. Everybody should have access to flexibility, irrespective of their personal stance circumstances, so they could be neurodiverse or have an invisible disability or responsibility for an elderly relative, they could be writing a book or climbing Killimanjaro for charity or have something else in their life. I think it's um really a structural necessity, and um jobs should not be inaccessible to working parents just because of the structure and the hours, and flexibility doesn't mean working less, it means working differently. So it's having a system that accepts you have your work and you have your life outside of that, which is just as legitimate and just as real, and to get this diverse talent, and you know, working parents have so many transferable skills that they can bring into the workplace, so designing work where and systems where mothers feel structurally supported is is just like so crucial.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

Yeah, and I love that take on I think that there is that discrepancy, isn't there, or perhaps resentment on the part of people who don't have kids who feel that flexibility is something that it's not fair if you know parents have the flex, and and I think you've explained it really well there. I don't think, you know, I think if flexibility was something that was built into the workplace and normalized more, uh, and also role modelled more by senior members, you know, because I think that's the other thing is that too often in organisations where, you know, you have particularly fathers, you know, that's a whole nother topic, but like fathers perhaps feel that they can't ask for flexibility or they can't talk more about their family commitments because there is still so much stigma attached to it, then often what you then see is that actually the senior male leaders of that company are not role modelling you know, the flexibility themselves. And so, and and and female, senior female leaders also, because you know it's not of course it works both ways. Um, but I know that a lot of the men that I've spoken to have struggled with that, you know, they feel like it's a stigma to ask for flexibility. So, to your point, if if if flexibility itself is more normalized across the board and it's not just for parents, it's just it's a working practice which is actually better for everyone, um, then you know it's going to filter down and help parents, you know.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

I mean, we're so aligned because as you were talking, I was thinking I should have made the point about dads as well. Like supporting working mothers is a mistake just to focus on what working mothers need, because dads want that involvement in a child's life just as much, and they you know worried about how they're perceived and how it's going to impact their career progression, even if you have parental leave and it's paid for, like, not they don't always take it. So that is the real route to um supporting women is to like really be talking about dads as well and what they need and creating that space for them to kind of be open about their caring responsibilities.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Absolutely, and I think I I've I I've talked about this before, but I you know I've I find it quite it is quite confronting because we are living in such a patriarchal society that it's kind of like you know, even in my own family setup, and I've said this before, you know, it's like my husband has the big job, he works away a lot, you know, I'm at home with the kids, I'm I'm trying to grow my business, but it's quite challenging because ultimately I'm the default parent and I'm here a lot, you know. And then sometimes you have these moments when you catch yourself and you think, it's so frustrating to be living within the system that you are consciously trying to, you know, fight and fight against and rally against and change, you know, from the inside out when you realise that you have actually subconsciously or even consciously to some extent, but often it is kind of you have some subconsciously fallen into these very traditional roles, yeah, gender-normalized roles.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

I did the same, like in the early my business has really grown according to my kids and the flexibility they've allowed. Like now I'm working full, full-time, but when they were young, it was a slow process to building it up because partly because of you know, my husband wasn't at home, was running a business and not home till midnight, but also because I wanted to be there for them, like I designed my life in that way. But yeah, it's yeah, yeah, absolutely the same.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

But it and it it can be it just can be frustrating, can't it, when you realise. But I think again, my view is that the more conversations we're having about this, you know, the better. And and I think my husband isn't actually like afraid to say that he has to cancel a meeting because it's of a childcare commitment or something like that. It's just that he physically isn't around that much because you know, the nature of his job means he has to travel. Um, but I think we need to be having these conversations more uh visibly and you know more openly, and I do think that will make a huge difference. So, um, and the point you made about line management uh again is something I came across uh in in some research that I was doing for the book, was uh I think it was Jess Hegrin's brilliant Careers After Babies report.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Oh, I'm on the board of that.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

I know, yes, I saw you, I've seen you see you in that report, and I I remember there was um in that there was the the point was made about the importance of line managers and how actually how critical supportive line managers are in terms of uh women particularly transitioning back into the workplace after having children. So I think you know that really speaks to everything you said about how important it is that managers get it and support mothers and fathers when they've become parents as well, you know, like this this all needs to feed into the same um, you know, it needs to work for everyone. So um maybe have we covered this? What I one of the questions I was gonna ask you was what small but meaningful changes can managers or colleagues make to support working parents better? Like, are there are there small things that you recommend, or you know, do you have any tips?

SPEAKER_00 34:39

Yeah, I mean, we do um a lot of work, literally just training line managers as well, because if you weren't a parent or a carer yourself, you might not understand some of the challenges, and I feel like there's a lot of pressure placed on them, like they could have just been really good at their jobs, they suddenly get to this point of managing a team. But having spoken to tens of thousands of parents in the workplace, I do know that having that supportive manager or colleague is a complete game changer. So that relationship is really built on like trust, flexibility, empathy, communication, and it's so much more important than you know, again, what it says or the ethos of a company, what the policies and procedures say. When when managers get it right, employees feel happier, more motivated, engaged, and that's going to impact like retention of talent, productivity, well-being, absenteeism, all of that. So the first thing I would say is never assume, like, don't make any assumptions or expectations just based on what you think a working parent wants or what you've seen another working parent need. Everybody's got a different family setup situation, needs, priorities, and also I think we should acknowledge the term family has really evolved, and there are so many people I know from the work that I do that come to my sessions that aren't actually a parent. You know, you could be a grandparent or an aunt or a godparent, or there are reasons why people have a very active role in a child's life. So being sensitive to all these like different circumstances and little things like you know, obvious things like not organizing meetings at the beginning or the end of the day, no one should feel they need to apologize for being a parent and needing to kind of suddenly go to a doctor's appointment or something, asking open-ended questions in a genuine way, like you know, are there any short-term adjustments I can make to help you with some of the challenges you're facing outside of work? Or, you know, just how are the kids this weekend? I'm wondering how you're doing, and building that culture of conversation and transparency is a really good investment of your time. Um, but just like just being open, as like these are kind of foundational skills that any manager should have for anybody, really. But it comes back to like that psychological safety and that place where you don't have to hide what is going on outside of work, but you can speak about it openly.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

Absolutely, and that's really pertinent for me at the moment because I've been hosting conversations quite a bit lately with you know uh well around the topic of the village or how we rebuild the village was is some calls that I've been having, but more specifically, just you know, this concept of concept may be not the right word, but that you know, we're we're trying to hold it together in every aspect of our lives and do as well as we can. And it's in it's in it's exhausting. And it's inevitable that, you know, at some point the the mask is gonna slip, you know, and I think that it's really, really hard in the workplace, you know. I I've talked recently about this the transition from you know the morning drop-off to being at your desk for nine o'clock and being on a meeting. And as you say, like it'd be brilliant if there were not meetings first thing in the morning or right at the end of the day when you're feeling stressed and you have to transition. But this this concept of holding it together all the time and manage it's like lurching from one transition to the next transition and you know, really having to adjust your nervous system and all of these things, you know, it's so challenging. And I think that it's it's critical that employers do understand. But on the one hand, understand how challenging that is, but on the other hand, understand how brilliantly women, you know, and men, you know, parents adapt to doing it, you know, and it's not like it shouldn't be seen or viewed as a um an impediment, really, because it just means that we need a different pace at certain times of the day, or maybe just a slightly different, you know, it's when it comes back to flexibility, isn't it? Like a different rhythm. It's not that we don't hit our flow, and actually, arguably, I don't know about you, Rachel, but like since I've become a mum, and I think every most mums I speak to you say the same. You're like, you are suddenly way more efficient when with the time that you do have.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Time better, prioritize, get really clear on what matters. There's no other choice, otherwise, no, it's not all gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Exactly. So, like, you know, I think it's that understanding, which you know, again comes back to the line manager thing. It's like it doesn't mean that we're not able to do the work, it doesn't mean that we're not, you know, it just means that we might need to do it slightly differently. And here's what that looks like for us, you know. Like, I I my transition in the morning is is you know, five and eight at the moment, so it's not great often. Mornings can be quite tricky. So I try not to organise any meetings until uh if I can after 10, but you know, certainly not before 9:30, because I find that first half hour I just need to like stare into space, you know, have a coffee and like stare into the void and just like think about what's just happened, like the drama of the drop-up. Um do some box breathing and you know, whatever it might be. Um so yeah, uh, I think that's uh that's really important. Um, we've got we've got oh god, I could just honestly, I could talk to you forever, and I feel like there's so many similarities in in the things that we're talking about. But let's um let's go back to the mum who is feeling overwhelmed with guilt, you know, all the things we've talked about, like just struggling to hold it all together. On the surface, everything might seem fine to your line manager, to your partner, to all these things, you know, but underneath, like you really are like on the edge, which I think probably is a lot of mums who are listening to this podcast right now. Um what advice would you have directly for those mums if they are working, parenting, everything might even seem okay on the outside, but they are literally holding on by a thread? What would your advice be to them?

SPEAKER_00 40:42

Yeah, I mean, first of all, is like looking at those thoughts back to what I was saying about those thoughts in your head. Are you feeling like that due to unrealistic standards you are setting for yourself? You know, is it societal pressure and the culture that you're in, you know, expecting you to be exceptional at work and selflessly devoted at home? Most working parents I speak to do feel like this at some point or another. So don't think it's only you. Um, and you're kind of like measuring yourself against an impossible ideal. I I would say, you know, what, especially when it comes to children and those feelings of guilt towards your children, what they need more than anything else is to feel really feel your presence, to know that you deeply care. Back to what I said before, to feel genuinely connected to you and to know that when something goes wrong, you're the person they can come to. So that relationship and secure base is where everything else rests. And um, you know, if you feel guilty and you think you're falling short, that's the evidence to show how deeply you care. You know, if you're a parent that wasn't bothered, then you wouldn't really be doing a good job of parenting. So it shows how seriously you take this role above everything else, and you know, when your children are adults and they will be sooner than you feel, even though yours are five or eight. How do you want them to describe you? Not not what you achieved and what you provided, but the experience of like having you as their parent, of being loved by you. That that is the real job that matters, and all the get to this activity and be dressed like this and fed like that, and all the other stuff, and what school they go to, and honestly, in the long run, those aren't the things um that that matter.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

It's that quote, isn't it? How is it was it my Angelou? I forget now about that.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

It's how you made what you said and never forget what you did, but it's how you make them feel. Like I've dropped that into my kids in terms of because I think one of the most important jobs as well for children is teaching them like social and emotional skills, like how they really communicate and connect with others, especially the whole world of AI, and I've got kids that are new graduates, but but that again is back to the the modelling. Um, that's such an important part of your role and and your parenting.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

And also it comes back to what you were saying about values because I mean, I I'm pretty certain that if you ask my kids what would be the most important thing that I would say they could ever be in this life would be kind. Because I I just, you know, I say to them, I don't care. You know, my son's going through a competitive phase. I think that's normal for an eight-year-old, but it doesn't like losing things, you know. Um, but I I always say I don't I really don't care. Like, I don't care if you win, I don't care if you lose, I don't care about anything else. I just want you to be kind because I really feel like we are losing that in the world, and we need to make sure, you know, first and foremost, be kind to everyone and always try and understand, you know, or put yourself in someone else's shoes before you judge them or you know, anything like that. And I and so I think um that for me that's also a really important thing is like you say, think about how they will look back on how they felt when you raised them, and also think about what values they will carry.

SPEAKER_00 44:12

So like I I um so that concept of kindness, you speak about it, you model it, you're you're really conscious of instilling it in them. So I I used to run a parenting course, now I've got an online version, and one of the activities I suggest is to create that family mission statement. You know, every company, charity, school has like this is our ethos, this are our values, but actually it comes from Stephen Covey, like the seven habits of highly affective families. Write it down, like discuss it if you have a partner, your kids would be old enough to talk about it as well, and like literally have it somewhere where everyone can remember, and making sure that we really try to live by those values, and it gives a very clear, like, compass and direction that they can carry with them um throughout their lives.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

I love that idea having a family sort of yeah, a map or sit down and do that. Maybe we'll try that on holiday. I'm not sure my five-year-old's quite there yet, but we could always try, see what she comes up with.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

If you know what is our family all about if someone steps into our house, what what is it that they really feel? Um, and and being able to articulate that is really powerful.

SPEAKER_01 45:21

Oh, amazing. It's so much wisdom, Rachel. Thank you so much for joining me today. Can you please tell the listeners where they can find you, if they need to, what you have going on at the moment, anything that you would like to share?

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Yeah, I mean, I'm not the best at social media other than LinkedIn, so I post on there pretty much every day. So follow me for anything relating to raising kids and to work being a working parent. Um, on my website, educatingmatters.co.uk, there's a blog section where there's different categories, and I also have a free masterclass which is just like half an hour of all my favourite tools and strategies that provide a good starting point. Um, so maybe if you could share that um with people listening in.

SPEAKER_01 46:02

I definitely will. I will try and I will try and attach these. So if you do follow Rachel on LinkedIn, she does these amazing infographics which um I will endeavour to um overcome my tech phobia and attach to the show notes. But if you don't, if I don't manage to do that, then um check out her LinkedIn because yeah, there's they're really, really kind of useful visual infographics which go into more detail about all the topics we've talked about today and so much more. Um, but thank you, is all that's left to say. I hope um I hope our paths will cross. I hope we will have an opportunity to to talk and work together again because I just really love what you're doing and uh yeah, so much of it is is aligned with what I'm doing. So thank you for sharing your wisdom.

SPEAKER_00 46:38

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

Thanks for joining me on Challenge Your Guilt. If you found this episode helpful, I'd love for you to subscribe, leave a review, or share it with another mother who needs to hear this. You can also buy the book, Challenge Your Guilt, or book a free call with me to explore how we can work together. Links are in the show notes. Until next time, remember the guilt you've been carrying was never yours to hold. It's time to put it down.