ADHD, Food & The Whole-Body Connection with Dr Miguel Toribio-Mateas #8

Welcome back to The WHOLEistic Psychology Podcast 🤍

Today’s conversation is one that feels both deeply important and incredibly needed, and I feel so excited about sharing with you! 

I’m joined by the incredible Dr Miguel Toribio-Mateas — a clinical neuroscientist, nutrition and mental health researcher, and author of ADHD Body and Mind — whose work brings together neuroscience, nutrition, and lived experience in a way that is both deeply compassionate and profoundly insightful .

Together, we explore what ADHD actually looks like beyond the diagnostic criteria… not just as a condition of attention, but as a whole-body experience that shapes how we think, feel, eat, and move through the world.

We talk about the gut-brain connection, emotional regulation, disordered eating, and Dr Miguel’s PHOCUS framework - a beautifully holistic approach to supporting ADHD through food, flexibility and self-kindness.

In this episode, we explore:

✨ Dr Miguel’s personal journey with ADHD and autism, and how his late diagnosis reshaped his understanding of himself and his work
 ✨ What ADHD actually feels like day-to-day (from hyperfocus and creativity to overwhelm, paralysis, and emotional intensity)
✨ Why ADHD is not just a “brain disorder”, but a whole-body experience involving the nervous system, gut, and inflammation
✨ The often-overlooked emotional landscape of ADHD, including overwhelm, dysregulation, and rejection sensitivity
✨ Why food matters for ADHD
✨ The gut-brain connection and how microbiome health may influence mood, focus, and overall wellbeing
✨ Dr Miguel’s PHOCUS framework: a flexible, ADHD-friendly approach to nourishment that moves away from rigid rules
✨ The role of protein in supporting dopamine, energy, and emotional regulation throughout the day
✨ How healthy fats, herbs, and hydration support brain function, inflammation, and overall health
✨ Why carbohydrates are not the enemy, and how they support gut health and steady energy
✨ The importance of colourful, diverse plant foods for the microbiome and whole-body health
✨ The role of unprocessed, unique, and umami foods in creating satisfaction, pleasure, and sensory engagement with food
✨ Why self-kindness is the foundation of any sustainable approach to health, especially for ADHD
✨ The connection between ADHD and disordered eating, and how food can become both a source of comfort and control
✨ Why perfectionism and rigid food rules can be more harmful than helpful
✨ The importance of a truly holistic approach: food, movement, connection, environment, and psychology all working together

To see more of the incredible Dr Miguel Toribio-Mateas and his work, you can explore his book ADHD Body and Mind and his ongoing research in the field of nutrition and mental health, as well as by following him on Instagram @drmiguelmateas .

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Holistic Psychology Podcast, where psychology meets nutrition, lifestyle, and physical health for a whole-person approach to your mental health. I'm senior psychologist Sophia Dawson. Let's step into true wellness from the inside out. Today's conversation is one I've been wanting to have for a long time. I'm joined by the fabulous Dr. Miguel Toribio Mateus, a clinical neuroscientist, nutrition and mental health researcher, and the author of ADHD, Body and Mind, whose work so beautifully bridges the gap between evidence-based science and lived human experience. In this episode, Miguel shares his own journey of being diagnosed with ADHD and autism later in life. And together we discuss what ADHD is and how it can show up in day-to-day life, perhaps in a way you've not heard about before. About its connection with the body, and in particular with the gut, inflammation, and the nervous system. And we talk Miguel's compassionate practical framework for nutrition for ADHD, called focus. We also touch on something that I think is so important, and that's the relationship between ADHD and disordered eating, and how food can become both a source of comfort and control. So if you or someone you know has a diagnosis of ADHD, or you're interested in the link between mental health and nutrition, this episode is for you. Dr. Miguel, thank you so much for being on the Holistic Psychology Podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

Thank you for having me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

It is honestly so amazing to have you here. We've been talking about this for such a long time. And so I'm I'm really excited that we're finally able to catch up.

SPEAKER_03 1:47

Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yeah, it's gonna be so fantastic to talk to you, Jay. You know, when I was preparing for this podcast, I the first time I ever heard of you was when I was listening to your podcast with Dr. Wrong and Chattergy. And this was years ago, and I distinctly remember you talking about olive oil because all of the wisdom you imparted on olive oil in that podcast I use to this day. And so I've been like a longtime observer of you, and so it's extra special to be able to talk to you today on such an amazing important topic.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

Thank you. Thank you very sweet.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

So hey, I would absolutely love to start by us um discussing your personal journey because I know that you wear a lot of hats. You're a clinical neuroscientist, nutrition and mental health researcher, university lecturer, and now an author of an incredible book that we will talk about shortly. Um, but I'd be really interested just to hear about your personal journey into the work that you do now that we're going to be speaking about today, ADHD and nutrition.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

Yeah, well, I think you're born ADHD, aren't you? So, you know, it doesn't just uh happen when you're like 30 or something. It's not like, you know, like diabetes type 2. You know, you you have it in in in you and uh and um and looking back, I I it was quite obvious that I had ADHD and that I was neurodivergent from from very early on. But uh I'm 53 and uh you know, late 70s, early 80s, there wasn't the language to kind of like talk about that kind of thing. Uh I think like autism at the time, yes, you know, people said, oh my my son is autistic, but then that was like the very stereotypical autistic, non-verbal, like not looking into people's eyes and all this kind of stuff. That is just like, you know, one end of the spectrum, but there's like, you know, it's it's very wide. So uh fast forward to 47 and uh you know uh I'm getting my diagnosis of ADHD, and then the year later I'm um um as autistic. Um kind of like it makes sense for me to make sense to me to to look back and and understand things from a different context. But yeah, I um it's um it's it's been a rocky road because like, for example, uh just uh um just I mean I we could talk for two hours just about the journeys, uh I don't want to bore people. But when I decided to move from more of the nutrition world to the neuroscience world, and uh and I thought, okay, what do I do? What you know, neuroscience is very wide as well. So there's like cognitive neuroscience, clinical neuroscience, behavioral neuroscience, you know, there's so many degrees that you can do. Some of them are just online, some of them are in a lab, and and I was quite drawn to doing things in a lab. I wanted to go and do more uh lab work. And uh so it was it was trickier because obviously you had to be at the university and you had to feed cells and things like that. And I went at the deep end and uh I got some money to do some work with um um stem cells, and uh and I was working with uh mitochondrial trans transcription factors. So basically giving stem cells some nutrients in a Petri dish to see if the nutrients had an effect on reducing stress on the cells, so because cells get stressed, but they get oxidative stress, which is a type of stress, so it's not like we feel stressed as humans, but it they they do feel attacked in a way by whatever is happening in their environment. So, can you regulate that with certain nutrients? I was feeding feeding them vitamin C and some amino acids and NAD plus, which is quite trendy now, this kind of uh type of like B vitamin that people are using now for like longevity and stuff like that. So I was basically just giving them different nutrients in isolation, mixing them, assessing what was going on, and so on. So, and then obviously learning about the brain and the nervous system. And and at the time I've I had a um um a peer in my in my group who um had ADHD and he had like special dispensation for you know handing in the essays later and stuff like that. And I'm thinking, wow, I I wish I had that because I'm really struggling with like handing my essays in time. I was working full-time, had to take um a lot of time off to from my uh clinic work and and my consulting work to to go to university most days because even though it was part-time, I did like a condensed part-time, so it was in between full-time and part-time because I wanted to do it quite quick, but it still took like 18 months because you had to do extra lab work and and so on. So um, so yeah, it was uh it was quite intense, and I've I've never been so stressed in my whole life, honestly. I just lived with my adrenaline levels like completely through the roof for like nearly two years. I um my personal life was a mess at the time, you know, I was like everything was falling through the cracks, my work was falling through the cracks, and uh honestly, it was really, really messy. And I remember thinking talking to this guy, I should go and have an assessment for ABHD. But at the time I just thought, oh my god, it just sounds all so daunting, you know, having to sit down with uh a professional. If you dig a little deep into what might have gone on, there's trauma that I don't probably want to discuss at this time because I feel a bit fragile. Uh I didn't have a lot of that awareness as well, you know, like with trauma, sometimes you're just saying, Oh, I've had trauma, but I'm fine. Uh, you know, until you're not fine, basically. And I was at that stage that I was thinking, like, I know I've had trauma. I know it's been kind of uh, you know, quite full-lone trauma in my childhood, but I'd rather kind of uh I'm fine. I don't I don't need to talk about it, I don't need to go into therapy or talk to a psychiatrist about it or anything. So anyway, it was kind of like daunting and I left it. Uh and then over the years I met people with ADHD and they were telling me stories, and you know, and and just before my diagnosis, I met this guy at work with ADHD who had been diagnosed the year before. And they always say that whenever you get diagnosed, you kind of it's like a pyramid scheme. So basically, like you kind of enroll five or six people around you who get diagnosed. And that is so true because you know, it's like literally like some of the people around me that, you know, some of them have been my students from like 10, 15 years ago. Um, some are like close friends, suddenly basically everybody in that little circle is like got a diagnosis of one kind or another, like you have autistic ADHD, just ADHD, autistic, you know, really funny. So, anyway, so the all the stuff that he was telling me, I'm thinking, God, I've been thinking about this for a while, and the more you tell me about how you experience the world and all the struggles that you've had, and I just see myself so much in all of that. So I have my diagnosis, and it happens that at the same time, I um the company I was working uh in, it was a microbiome company, uh, research, and uh we um did um collaborations with universities and also sold tests to the general public and kind of analyzed the data and so on and and put together new ways of looking at the at the data from the microbiome tests. Um I was working with a university in on a clinical trial, and uh um and through that I got involved in a team that then we've done work together and we've published together on ADHD and and kefir, fermented milk. And uh so it was all kind of like quite synergistic, quite organic. Like my life tends to be like that. I'd like you know, I have ideas, but I don't kind of like plan ahead like what do I want to do in five years' time, because my concept of time is quite surreal. It's like I don't really know what's gonna happen in the next hour. So to think what's gonna happen in the next five years for me is like science fiction, it doesn't exist in my brain. It's not a real possibility that you know something's gonna happen in five years, because normally I live like, you know, I live in the moment. So um, so yeah, so uh uh, you know, again, fast forward a few more years, and I've been part of this team. We've done stuff together on um ADHD and children. We plan to do uh more research on ADHD and adults. Uh I'm putting together a framework for nutrition and neurodivergent people that I um well I've I've recently invited you to be part of the working group. So I'm excited that you said yes. Uh to tackle the fact that I believe nutrition is very neurotypical in how it's kind of uh shared, uh and uh and it doesn't really take into account the neurotype and the sensitivities that come with it as well. Um so I'm putting something together along those lines and to be able to assess the needs of a particular person based on how their nervous system is wired in a way. Uh and yeah, I think uh um yeah, it's that that is you know, that is one version of my journey. I could probably tell you a few others.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

I love that, and what a journey. While you were talking, I was like, wow, honestly, what a journey. It just feels like you've been taken to the work that you know you need to do. It's so meaningful and it's so needed. Um, and how incredible that it's inspired you to write this book um called ADHD Body and Mind, which is truly phenomenal. I was just saying to you right before we got on here, the book genuinely feels like too good to be true. It is literally a one-stop shop for everything you need to know about ADHD. There it is. Amazing. It's so phenomenal. It is such an incredible holistic guide to ADHD. I just think it is so, so needed. And um, I guess to start off talking about the book, you know, one thing at the beginning of the book that kind of struck me, and I completely agree with you, is how ADHD has kind of been turned into this very rigid diagnostic kind of criteria that when you read through it, it doesn't really speak to somebody's lived experience of ADHD. And I imagine that's why it's the ADHD assessment pathway is kind of like a pyramid scheme, because by the time somebody goes through that process, they go, Oh, okay, so that's what ADHD can look like. That makes so much sense. So, from your perspective, I'd be so curious to hear what you would like people to know about what ADHD can look like just day to day from a lived experience point of view.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

Yeah, so ADHD, uh, you know, you have the some people saying, oh, ADHD is all about strengths, and it's about how creative you can be, and how, you know, um uh you think outside the box and and uh you know and divergent thinking, which is that kind of thing. You put things together that maybe other people wouldn't have thought of putting together, and so and it's all that, but also it's about sitting in front of the computer and literally needing to send an email and spending three hours thinking about a response that doesn't flow, and literally it's just about saying yes or no to somebody or leaving somebody on red on a message because you don't know what you know what you want to say, but like the right words are not coming through, and then you get overwhelmed by it, and then you think, oh my gosh, she's gonna hate me. So I'm going to be even more paralyzed by that, by the potential rejection. Because sometimes we think that rejection is about like what people have told you, but sometimes the worst rejection is for what they haven't told you, so you're expecting a response, and so there's all of this going on. So it could be absolutely brilliant and it could be absolutely crap as well. And the reality is that it's the two together, and uh, and you can excel at something, and you can really struggle with something, and the things that you can struggle with can be like really basic things that you know, or at least you know, seemingly basic for people, you know, it's kind of a oh, it's something so seemingly simple for a neurotype person that, you know, it's like, for example, I've been fined three times for not using the right car, touching in and out of the tube, like the underground in like London lately, because I've basically I've been distracted, or I just forgot to basically I need to change from a train to the tube, and then so I need to scan a barcode to come out of the train station, but then touching with a card to come into the underground, and I've just basically but each machine will also understand another card if you just touch out. So basically, if you just touch out at the train station, it just assumes that you've come from like really far and it charges you like 20 pounds or something. So it's and I've done that like you know several times that I've just basically got like, and and my other half is saying, Can you you just pay attention because this is costing a lot of money? Can you and I'm saying, you think that I want to do that? Because then I feel embarrassed because it's something so silly, you know. It's just it should just be simple. My phone is kind of like pre-programmed to use the right card anyway. All I need to do is just to like put it close to the machine and that's it. But I still manage to do something silly like that. Um, and I'm thinking, okay, people must think, oh, this guy is like, you know, a doctor in neuroscience, and you know, he must be brilliant. But then something so silly as that can happen. So uh, and that's the reality of ADHD. It can be that sometimes you struggle with something that seems quite simple, uh, and and then you excel at something that can be quite complicated because you it's not about lacking attention. Because I think when we say deficit, attention deficit, immediately people think, oh, somebody's gonna be very dopey, they're gonna be a hot mess, they're gonna be like the typical person is like, oh, you know, good for nothing kind of person. You know, it's it's it's not it's not the case. It's uh, you know, you can excel at something really, really difficult because your mind is so excited by that that you have all the all the brain power, you have all the dopamine that people say, oh, ADHD is about dopamine, it's about not having enough dopamine. And you can have all the dopamine in the world to pass exams with like 90% marks, and you know, and or to become something else that you just basically, oh, I want to become a yoga teacher. That was like, you know, so many things that I've done in my life. You know, I was working in corporate and I thought, oh, I had enough corporate, I want to become a yoga teacher. And I like did my yoga teacher training and I became a yoga teacher. And and I did it while I was working as well, so I combined the two. And you know, so if you have that what people call hyperfocus in ADHD, if you have that intensity of um laser-focused attention to something that really interests you, you can excel at that. Um hyperfocus can have a dark side as well because you can hyperfocus on behaviors that may not be that healthy, and then you know that dopamine is flowing and the motivation is flowing, but it may be flowing and attracting you to overeat because you're hyper focusing on food or gambling or you know, drugs, or whatever. So it can have a it can have a flip side as well. But when when it's positive, it can be wonderful. Uh, but then if you're not interested, it's almost pathologically impossible to achieve something. So if I'm not interested in the person who's emailed me and what they're about, and you know, and I I can ignore the email. I'm thinking every every time I open my email, I know that I need to respond, but because I'm not motivated by the project or whatever, it could be like, oh my god, I haven't responded to this person. It's like the email is like a month old and they're gonna hate me.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

So it could be something very simple that you don't manage to do just because the interest is not there, or the so it's not so much the lack of attention, it's just the the the focus of where your interests are. And I think that's so in that's why it's so important to to understand you and what you want out of life instead of just kind of like trying to fit into pigeonholes that society kind of uh wants you to fit into.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Totally. I could not agree more, honestly. But you know, I I love just listening to you speak about that because you make ADHD real, you know, and I think that when you're reading through the criteria, that's not how it reads, you know. It reads as something that's very black and white, and as you say, it comes from more of a deficit perspective. So to hear, you know, how it looks in day-to-day life, I think it's um it's powerful to put it out there the way that you have. Um, you know, more and more in my work, I'm I'm so fascinated, of course, in the the nutrition lens on mental health. That's absolutely what I'm doing in my life now. And more and more people are saying, you know, I'm so interested in it, but I have no idea how, you know, ADHD, for example, could be impacted by the food that I eat. So I'd be so interested to hear your lens on how the heck does what I eat matter when it comes to ADHD?

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Well, it matters a lot, but it's not the whole story as well. And I think that is the that is the nuance. The whole story about ADHD is about nuances. Because as you just said, you know, if you just uh fill out the you know, the the questionnaire that is used by the World Health Organization and that, you know, the the kind of uh, you know, uh bla as you say, black and white, absolutely mainstream kind of a process um of diagnosing somebody clinically, is going to ask you things like you feel like you are driven. Them by a mortar. Well, you know, uh I it may not be, you know, you fidget constantly and you think, well, sometimes, but it's it's not so much of a physical fidget. Sometimes my my fidgeting is more mental. So my hyperactivity may be that I need to be like moving all the time. Uh it's more like a mental hyperactivity, so overlapping thoughts, intrusive thoughts, not being able to concentrate on one thing completely because by the time I'm almost finished with something, I start something else. So in the end, I finish things by about 90%, and then I get stressed because I haven't quite finished the thing. So I think uh for particularly for children and younger people, it can be very challenging because you haven't got the awareness to realize of the impact that that has on your life. I think as an adult, you have the ability to realize how is that impacting me, and then maybe retrain your behavioral processes so you can adapt and you can, I'm not saying fix your ADHD, but I'm I'm saying more how am I going to feel better with myself at the end of the day? Not because I feel that I am more normal in inverted commerce, so I am less ADHD, but because I feel more at peace with myself. And if that means doing something that's going to make me stress less, what do I do? How do I do that? So, in terms of bringing that to food and the nuances, some people will be very focused on food and they will use it as a you know as the main tool, and they'll want to push it as, you know, oh, you don't need meds, you don't need, you know, you just need food, and you're gonna fix everything because you're going to biohack your way through um ADHD with supplements and you know, and this and that, or intermittent fasting, and all and and I mean, you're a researcher, you know, science is nuanced at the end of the day. You know, you need to read studies at face value for what they do in that particular environment, and uh the criteria that you use to set the study up, uh they need to be watertight, and then extrapolating that to another group of people, maybe another age group, another, you know, another gender, whatever, you need to take it with a very big pinch of salt because until you have done several times that same process in different areas of the world, you know, different genetics, different age groups, whatever, and you've unified that in a systematic review or a meta-analysis, and then you kind of like start seeing the trends, it's quite difficult to say, yeah, this study sounds amazing, uh, you know, but wait, it was done in children from like five to 10, and uh the sample size was like 20, and like you get somebody on like Instagram with like two million followers saying, Oh, do this, because the study published in nature, okay, well, it's nature, but you know, have you actually read the study? You know, you cannot say that this is going to work in people who are like 50. Then again, it's food, so it gets even more nuanced because you think, okay, well, we're talking about tomatoes, or we're talking about like cassia, we're talking about, you know, eating more veg. How bad is that going to be for me? Well, okay, no, it's not going to be bad, but that's not the point. The point is that is it going to address what you want to address, which is maybe inattention or hyperactivity or whatever, and probably it's not going to translate. So at the same time, eating in a particular way, is it going to benefit the whole of the body, which in a way is what I talk about in the book as well. Like the ADHD doesn't just happen from the brain up, from the neck out. It's not just like confined to this area of the body. It happens in the whole of the body, and people with ADHD might be perhaps more sensitive to certain foods because we tend to be more in a fight or flight mode a lot of the time. I call it like meerkat mode. It's kind of like you know, hyper-vigilant mode a lot of the time. And then that means that your biochemistry is going to change slightly, it's going to make you more prone to maybe mounting uh an immune reaction, perhaps, to some of the foods that you have at a certain time because not because you're allergic to those foods, but because your body is kind of like constantly looking for a threat to address, and then suddenly you have too much of something, and or too little of this, or too much of that, and you the the way that you've combined your meal and you feel bloated, or you feel that you need to rush to the toilet, or you have like IBS-like symptoms. A lot of that is very, very ADHD. And it's not down to the food itself, it's down to the biochemistry of the body being in a particular place because of your psychology as well, and that that whole um connection. So can food address and help ADHD massively, but uh it's not incompatible with other areas that need to be tackled as well. So when people say, Oh, just food, oh what what what about therapy? Is the thing therapy? Everybody with ADHD should have therapy. Okay, oh no, we don't need therapy, we can just biohack our way through ADHD with like supplements and food, or you know, or like some people who say, Oh, just take your medicine and that's fine. All you need is your meds, and then you can eat what you want. And okay, yes, to an extent, but would you just eat what you want as saying, oh, I'm just I just fancy ice cream all day today, you know, whether you have ABHD or not, it's probably not healthy to do that. So wouldn't it be better to just stick to some kind of like healthy guidelines anyway, and adapt them to what you what you like, what you don't like, and so on, but kind of like be roughly evidence-based around what is going to be good for the body in general, what is going to be good for my microbes in my gut, because we know that you know there's a growing field of the gut brain connection. What might be good for my mental well-being, we know that certain foods are actually good for things like anxiety and depression. It's not ADHD, but we do have a lot of anxiety and depression in ADHD as well as coexisting conditions as well. So it's combining all of that and opening the conversation to more elements that you know, exercise, um, connection, we need, we are social beings, you know, we need connection with people, having pets, nature, you know, they're all angles, and you cannot just say, oh, nature will just sort you out, nature will fix you. Well, maybe, but what about if you open the conversation to nature plus mets plus therapy plus pets plus you see what I mean? And I think that's what nuance it gets less instagrammable because it becomes more and people like the Instagrammable 30-second reel that tells you this is what you need, is that you just need one thing, but life is not Instagrammable, it's messy.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

I love that. That is so true, and that's such an important point to touch on, hey, because even though a lot of what we're going to talk about today is the nutrition side, it's not just nutrition, it's everything that you just described. And so if you're just doing nutrition and that is perfect, which is actually also what we will talk about about, we don't want it to be perfect, there's no such thing as perfect. But if everything else is lacking, like your sleep, you're not connected with beautiful people, you're not spending time in nature, um, you're not moving your body in a way that gives you energy, then actually, you know, the nutrition side of it kind of doesn't matter, like if you're not doing any any of the rest of those things. Um, in your beautiful book, you have devised what you've called the focus framework. So this is a framework to support eating in a way that provides um ADHD-friendly nourishment. And I one thing I love about this framework, I love all of it, but you've been so intentional to encourage ADHDs to unsubscribe from rigid food rules and perfectionism when it comes to food, and just instead, it's such an empowering lens because you are saying, hey, when you have capacity, here's some things that that you can consider that we know is going to help your brain. So can you please um share with us what the focus framework is?

SPEAKER_02 31:12

So yeah, so focus with pH, I think B H O C U S is uh is an acronym for uh B for protein, H for herbs, healthy fats and hydration, O for optimum optimal carbohydrates, um, C is for colorful plants, and U A is for unprocessed unique and umami additions. Um finally S is for self-kindness, and uh and then that leads to the last part of the book, which is uh self-kindness uh toolkit. So um basically uh focus also in Greek mythology, uh there are various different characters um referred to as um focus um that have gone through kind of like hero journeys, so kind of like going through struggles and kind of like coming out the other end. So um I was inspired by that as well. I was trying to find like a you know, how do I put this together? I have like ideas in my head, you know, like typical ADHD, and I'm thinking it needs to fit really tidily, but then H is for like three different things, so that's very ADHD as well, and you know, and EU is for another three different things, and probably it could be the S could be, you know, I was uh going to do S for supplements, and I thought, actually, no, I'm not going to talk about supplements, I'll leave that for later. And so in the end, it's kind of uh the whole book is really um about self-kindness, really. It's got a lot of self-kindness uh uh woven through it. So I thought I'm just going to use the S for self-kindness and uh and then create a toolkit at the end of the book for you know, with loads of different things that you can do that are allowing you to that allow you to be kind to yourself. So the the the whole thing is that you you do need some protein as part of the of the day, and ideally early in the day as well, because what the evidence is saying is that if you balance your blood sugar early in the day, which protein does, then you're probably going to find it easier to balance your energy through the day. Uh and uh and that's going to make you have less of these kind of like peaks and valleys of uh of energy through the day, get less into an energy roller coaster. Uh also if you are on meds, then your meds will probably last longer and uh have a more balanced effect as opposed to make you feel like you are high one minute because you've just taken your meds and suddenly you just feel like you've just had loads of coffee and then you plateau and then you crash, which a lot of people do on the Mets. It can be a bit of a softer ride because the idea on Mets is not that you feel high and then you crash, it's that you feel less overwhelmed and you feel that you can do things more easily, that you're not kind of overanalyzing everything all the time, that you know, that you have a an easier day with less suffering, basically, as opposed to just kind of uh, you know, I think lots of people feel a big um uh dubious about uh meds because they're just saying, oh my god, it's an amphetamine. So people take amphetamines to go clubbing, so why do I want to do that? It's it's a drug, and but they can be life-changing for people. So, you know, um, and and having protein in the morning, particularly and earlier in the day, and then having a reminder of protein with your lunch, uh, that can be very, very useful um for people on meds. But if you're not on meds, then it is always going to be useful just for that management of energy through the day. So then um the H component, so healthy fats particularly, so a lot of research has been done on omega-3s and ADHD, particularly in children. And uh I I probably would say they are not like the miracle cure for ADHD, so they are not going to just you know replace other interventions, as in you just take um some good quality fish oils or plant-based um EPA DHA uh uh compound, and then suddenly you just feel like enlightened and you just do everything and your brain works much better. But the brain has a lot of these omega-3 fats, so when you take them as a supplement or when you include them in your diet from like fatty fish, oily fish, like sardines and mackerel and you know, kippers and things like that, then you are more likely to bring those essential fatty nutrients into your brain and replenish the brain as you know as it needs replenishing. So that's one of the reasons why it's probably a good idea to take them. And also, as I was saying before, if we just focus the conversation on a deficit, whether it's uh an attention deficit or a nutrient deficit, and you need to bring more of that nutrient in to tackle that deficit, as opposed to what is the evidence overall on omega-3s, which is probably much better in other areas that are not ADHD. Although, I mean, it's not bad on ADHDs, that it's just that it's a bit patchy. Some studies are really good, and some studies are kind of like saying, well, nothing much happened, but potentially there is a benefit for something else. But if you look at cardiovascular health, for example, and omega-3s and inflammation and omega-3s, the evidence is actually quite robust, and uh and one of the things that happens in ADHD is that we tend to have a little bit more neuroinflammation, so inflammation that targets the nervous system and the brain than perhaps a person without ADHD. And uh it's not something that is going to be picked up in a uh in a black test when you go to see your family doctor because it's more subtle than that. It's just like an everyday biochemical adjustment to the fact that we live potentially more on this hyper-vigilance mode, so the body's more ready to produce inflammation on the basis that inflammation can be beneficial when we might experience some kind of uh uh threat or trauma to heal quickly, because you're going to need that first bout of inflammation to heal a wound potentially, so your body thinks, okay, I'm feeling stressed. There may be a situation where I get wounded and I'm going to need to heal that wound very quickly. So I'm going to have a reserve of inflammation molecules ready to tackle that. So having those omega-3s uh is going to be beneficial, but also other fats that are beneficial because they have um antioxidants. You were talking about olive oil, for example. So olive oil is just is a super healthy um source of fat because it's it's got the fatty medium, but also it's got loads of antioxidants, loads of polyphenols that are good for your gut. So we start talking about situations that are multi-system, they are not just like one nutrient for one particular thing. They kind of like open the conversation to okay, I'm taking olive oil and it's actually doing things to my brain, to my gut, to my skin, to my, you know, it's kind of like beneficial for the whole of the of the body. Um, and that kind of like overlaps a little bit with the H for herbs as well. So I'm a um I love herbs. Um being um Spanish-born, we use a lot of um herbs and spices in cooking. Uh um, there's lows of uh um interesting compounds in herbs, the kind of like powerhouses of polyphenols, antioxidants, um, fiber. Um, so you cannot go wrong adding herbs to your to your cooking anyway, or hydration, so H is for hydration as well. So you can combine hydration and herbs and have water, which is so easy to forget to drink, um, because you just hyper focus uh in on work, and then you think, oh my god, I haven't had a single sip of water for like four hours because I've just been focusing on my computer. So, and there is this thing as well as out of mind, out of sight for everybody, but in ADHD is even worse. So reminding yourself to have a bottle of water at your desk, you know, or you know, also something pretty that allows you to be motivated by it. So maybe like your favorite bottle is a little bit quirky, or you know, you have your favorite mug to remind you to look at it and think, oh, I need some tea, or you know, and combine that water with herbs as well, and put maybe like a a bit of rosemary, fresh rosemary in your water to give it some kind of like smell and you know, scent and and uh and and flavor, or some basil or some ginger, or you know, whatever, just to give you a little bit of uh I don't know how many polyphylos you're going to get from just a few slices of ginger in your water, but it will, you know, it's probably better than nothing. So and also makes it more interesting, and we get bored easily. So, you know, a bit of ginger and um I've been having water. Um I had a cold for a long time, uh, the last few weeks. Um I've I'm just gone uh past it now. But I was having what hot water with ginger and um fresh chili, so it was kind of like spicy water, and it was quite nice.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

That is brave.

SPEAKER_02 41:27

Yeah. So that was actually quite warming, and I felt nice on my on my throat. So so yeah, and then carbs. So um there's so much that people talk about carbs now. It's kind of they've been kind of like bagged all in the same in the same kind of uh uh carbs are bad for you kind of message, and uh and the reality is that we need carbs that are um going to feed your gut microbes. So in the book I talk a lot about MACs, which are microbiota accessible carbohydrates, which basically you have, I don't know, um white bread, most of that is going to be pre-digested in the stomach, turned into kind of like baby food, then it goes into the small intestine, and by the time it reaches the colon, there's hardly anything left. So if you have if you have all of this hungry bacteria waiting to be fed in the colon at the entrance of the, you know, where the food comes in, and there's suddenly very, very little, they're going to be a bit annoyed that there's not a lot of food coming in. Whereas if you have uh bread that is made with whole grains and it has more rough age to it, then this that rough age part is going to get to the colon and is going to be digested or uh fermented by the by um gut bacteria that are going to be producing some nice substances like butyrate, for example, or acetate that regulate the pH of the colon. And also butyrate is particularly good for um uh nourishing the colon cells, but also as an anti-inflammatory compound as well. So, this kind of low-grade neuroinflammation that we might have is going to be tackled to an extent by this butyrate that is being produced by those microbes. So anything that you can think of in terms of like fruit, vegetables, whole grains, um, and in terms of like diversity of those um plant uh foods is always going to be a good idea because every every plant will give you some kind of carb. And uh and we need a combination of those carbs. So you could say some people are very focused on low carb or low glycemic index and They freak out because of the whole grains. But the reality is that the whole grains, unless you just have a whole plate of, I don't know, pearl barley or something and nothing else, if you combine them with your healthy fats from olive oil and some polyphenols from herbs, and some protein from tofu or tempeh or meat or fish, you know, the meal gets balanced in a way that is not just carbohydrates. So again, people get really focused on one thing only, and the reality is that the meals that you will have will be messy and a combination of different nutrients, and they won't just have the carbs. So even if they have rice or pasta or bread or whatever, that's just gonna be part of that conversation that you're having with your body and not the whole story. So um, so yeah, so I think that that is uh that is really important that that that that focus on on carbohydrates that are going to give you gut microbes something to eat. And then colorful plants, I think I tackled that, the scene, the focus for color and diversity, the more colour the better, and uh spices, um, herbs, uh powerhouses of colour and uh and antioxidant power, so um as many of those as you want. Um process unique and umami in the you that is really important because again, some people think that neurodivergent people are just um avoidant when it comes to textures and smells and flavors, and we like plain things and beige food. And some people might do, but it's not a general trait of ADHDS or even autistic people, because you can have the opposite as well. You can be a seeker of those, you know, you could be actively seeking to stimulate your your um your senses with something that's very spicy or something that's you know crunchy, or so there is that balance, and and most people will have this kind of uh you know 50-50, 70-30 kind of like balance. I really like spice, I really like flavors, full flavors, I like umami a lot. I like things like miso, uh tamari, um kind of like oriental flavors I quite like, lemongrass, you know. So anything that's quite unique, anything that, you know, the texture might be quite unique, and anything that's mostly unprocessed, even though I'm not against process, because it doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad for you. And then you start kind of like judging food by how it's been made, and it can start creating rules that are unnecessary and make you stress. So yeah, so those are the you in there, and then self-kindness. Well, it's it's again I said S is self-kindness, but it could be supplements uh as well, and some supplements can be quite useful. You know, you could think maybe I'm going to supplement myself with some probiotics because I've read about them and they are they could be very useful. But also the whole thing, just to round up the focus, it's about not creating rules that are going to overwhelm you even more, just because many of us actually have struggled with our relationship with food for many, many years. Uh, in my case, I've um only just started basically the last couple of years to come to terms with the fact that I lived with disordered eating for probably since my teens. And purging and restricting heavily, cutting out whole food groups, then binging, you know, a whole kind of like cycles of binging, restricting, binging, restricting, and um and it's not a healthy relationship to have with food. This kind of like constant fear that you're going to put a weight or that something's not going to agree with you, or you know, um, so and it's not just me. So it's not the book is not just purely anecdotal. There's just so much evidence to support that, and the fact that people with ADHD have got a lot more risk of developing uh an eating disorder at some point in their life. Um so um the whole um philosophy behind my nutrition advice is very mindful of that. And for somebody who may never have had any, you know, even uh an idea of disordered eating, it might feel a bit too general because they think, well, I want more, you know, I want the ABCD of eating with ADHD. I want the biohacking. Well, you're not gonna have um that in the book. You're not gonna have me tell you that because I think people with ADHD, whether you have that tendency to disorder eating or not, can get bored with things and you can be very fatty. So one minute you're doing this diet, and the next minute you're doing that. And so for me, it's more about understanding how food impacts you and creating a healthier relationship with food than kind of like giving your rules, basically.

SPEAKER_01 49:25

Totally. I mean, that is so clear in your book. That is so clear. I think the the attitude of self-compassion runs so deeply, you know, through this. There is no judgment, it is just evidence-based, you know, synergize with lived experience and just so much compassion. So, I mean, truly, it comes through so loudly. Um, I'm so fascinated by all of what you just said, you know, with the focus framework and also the association with ADHD and disordered eating. And I'm curious from from your learnings, what it is about ADHD that maybe increases one's likelihood of experiencing disordered eating.

SPEAKER_02 50:14

I think it can be the um the fact, or well, I I'm I'm pretty sure it is the fact that um again, when you diagnose somebody clinically with ADHD, um, you don't really ask them about their emotions, you ask them about impulsivity, you ask them about whether they feel driven by a motor, they cannot stop fidgeting, um, you know, whether this affects them at work or in school, or you know, but you don't ask them about how do you feel? It's just so simple. How do you feel? Do you feel like anxious inside? Do you feel overwhelmed? Do you feel like you don't even know how you feel? You know, which is quite normal as well in like ADHD. You have so many emotions at the same time that all you feel is like this kind of like washing out of, you know, over you of this wave of emotion that you cannot even put a label to because you feel probably stressed, but you feel you might feel sad, you might feel happy because of something else. It's kind of like all of those kind of like human emotions in a in a whirlwind that can feel quite difficult to describe and that can block you. And then you have the fridge there that is like a portal to happiness. So you open the fridge and suddenly there's like food, or you go to the shop and suddenly there's food. And so it can be something that uh is a crutch, is like um it's a bit of a support mechanism that you find and you think, oh wow, I actually feel good for like five minutes after eating like you know, a whole tub of ice cream, and then I'm gonna feel guilty because I've eaten a whole tub of ice cream, but then you fall into this kind of uh in a way, um I don't want to call it addiction because I think addiction is kind of like something different, but you know, it can be white people um engage in kind of addictive behaviors as well, maybe with like drugs or sex or gambling, or you know, it's kind of like it's got that feel-good factor, and it hasn't got the stigma. The problem is I think with food, it's uh widely available. You can just pop into your supermarket that is open 24 hours a day, or you can go to your corner shop that's open 24 hours a day. You can get food everywhere. It's uh it's not stigmatized to eat uh until you maybe are putting on weight and and you feel bad with yourself, and then there's the the self, the self-um stigma that you feel because you you you allow yourself to put on the weight, or people start making comments and they maybe you feel bad, or then you lose the weight, and people start kind of like commenting on the fact that you've lost the weight, and that can feel good and validating sometimes, but it can also feel bad because oh, I didn't mean to lose weight, but now people are telling me I look very skinny, and you know, there's all of this going on, uh and uh and yeah, food is just there as a source of uh comfort and a source of control as well. So that's the flip side. So you have the comfort on one on one hand, and then you have the control. And when you lack control on other things in your life, because you cannot control yourself emotionally, you might struggle with that, with regulation. Um, you cannot control your relationships with work or with family or with colleagues or you know, uh your um romantic relationships or whatever, then you can control the food because you can choose not to eat, or you can choose not to eat gluten and make a big fuss about it. There's no sorry, I'm gluten-free. Are you celiac? No. Have you got a sensitivity? Oh, I get bloated. Are you sure it's the gluten? I'm pretty sure it's the gluten. Is it? Or is it the fact that you're completely stressed and anything you eat is going to make you bloated because you know, so there's all of this and the narratives that you tell yourself about all of this stuff, and and I think, is it just me? Is it just me feeling like this? And the more people I talk to, the more people this tell me the same story. Could be literally, it could just be my story told by 300 different people that I've spoken to since January about this kind of stuff. And like, you know, they all have slightly different variations, but the same thing. And so it's not just me. And the evidence tells you about it. So yeah, it's just a massive regulator of emotions, food. It's just so emotional. It's like, you know, oh, the baby's crying, give them a loli. Or the baby, you know, the baby's been, oh, you've been such a good girl or such a good boy, here's the biscuit. You know? It's like in we just get programmed through all of these things. You know, you've been a good boy, you have a biscuit. Oh, you've been a bad boy, I'm not gonna give you Dina. Or you that you don't have the shirt today. You know, all these things are just uh so normalized. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:36

I so agree. And we kind of don't even realize that until you put it into words just then, right? Like how we associate those words good and bad with certain foods. And I think that's what you've done a really amazing job of in your book is kind of like um, I guess debunking and like destigmatizing a lot of the the myths around food and and you lay out kind of, hey, here's the evidence, you know. Um it's honestly for anybody listening to this with ADHD, I just could not recommend this book more. And you provide kind of so many practical tools and you bring each of those kind of pillars of the focus framework to life by giving heaps of different examples of foods that you can include. Um now, for those who are reading your book or listening to this podcast, and they're thinking, wow, okay, I am so far away from eating in alignment with the focus framework. Where would you encourage them to start?

SPEAKER_02 56:42

I think like a baby's baby steps at the time. So if you're really, really far, and then you think, okay, what could I do that is just one of those things today? So could it just be hydration? Because that's so simple, but it's just one of those things that a lot of people struggle with drinking enough fluid, and you think, okay, so is it just water? Because I find water quite boring, but I drink a lot of tea and I drink decaf tea. So I'll have like easily like eight cups of tea a day. So I'm thinking, okay, well, I haven't actually drunk a lot of water. I've gone to the tar and like had a glass of water. It's quite rare that I do that. Like I'll do it like, you know, maybe like three times a week or something, that I actually have a glass of water. I'll have sparkling water a lot of because I like in the evening, and I don't drink alcohol, so that'll be like, you know, I'll have some sparkling water in the evening. Um, but yeah, thinking, okay, I haven't drunk enough, but I feel inspired to have more tea. Oh, I don't agree with caffeine very much. Well, I drink decaff tea, like I like a strong cup of tea, like you know, in the UK, it's like Yorkshire tea, like Bilders tea. So I have like a really strong cup of tea, but it's decaf. I enjoy that. That's giving me uh hydration. If you enjoy coffee, if you if you have caffeinated coffee, you only have like espresso coffees, then you're probably it's going to want to make you pee because it's slightly diuretic, so you probably get a little bit dehydrated imbalance, although it's not going to completely dehydrate you, but that's a bit of a myth. But if you have a large Americano, even if it's caffeinated, you have a lot a lot of water in there. So there's a lot of hydration in there. Uh if you prefer to be if you prefer it to be decaffed, then great because the the caffeine is what's going to make you want to go to the toilet slightly. So, you know, so you might get less dehydrated, but there's still a lot of water in there. So things like that, it could just be, you know, I wouldn't encourage somebody to drink like feesy drinks with sugar, particularly as a source of hydration, because it's probably not the healthiest thing, just because of everything that is included. But now, equally, there are some healthy feesy drinks available that are mostly sparkling water with like a flavor, you know. So if that is all you can master that particular day, and you think, okay, well, I really feel like this kind of uh, you know, apple flavored um water, it happens to have a bit of sweeteners. I'm not going to be so uh rigid with it, and I'm going to have a couple of um cans of that, versus not drinking any water at all that day. That can be, you know, that that is what I think that is the baby step. And then as you start knowing what agrees with you, what doesn't agree with you, what how much capacity you have to think about things, then you can make it, you know, you can go to the next step. Uh or it could be protein. It could be that you're not having enough protein. And uh you start in the day with something that, you know, either you're not eating and then feeling hungry and allowing yourself to feel hungry and then realizing, oh my god, I'm starving, it's midday and haven't eaten. Then maybe have some eggs in the morning, you know, boiled eggs if you if you have animal produce. Boiled eggs are super easy because you can just boil 10 eggs in one go and keep them in the fridge and they will last for like you know five days. So you can just have a boiled egg in the morning without having to have any prep or bring it with you in the in your bag to work and have it as soon as you get to the office. If you don't have animal produce, you could have some non-dairy yogurt that you can take with you and like have it as soon as you get to work, you know, with like you know, a bit of cinnamon. I like cinnamon and spices on yogurt as well, maybe a little bit of honey. Oh my god, but it honey's got sugar. Yeah, but it tastes nice. So, or some kind of like syrup, you know. I'm obsessed with um um date syrup that's supposed to be like uh, you know, it's another type of sugar anyway. It's kind of it's still sugar. It's I think it's healthier, but you know, it's uh it's got lower glycemic index, but it's still sugar. But in the greater scheme of things, I'm only putting a tiny sprinkle on my yogurt, so it makes it taste like caramel and it gives me satisfaction. So I'm thinking I'm enjoying the yogurt more because it's got that. So I'm having like 20 grams of protein and yes, some sugar, but a tiny amount of sugar that is like a tiny half a teaspoon of sugar. Life is about enjoyment as well and not about restriction all the time. So just baby steps like that, that are really, really simple, and uh rather than think, oh, because I cannot do the whole focus thing, I'm not gonna do anything. Because you can start with any letter from any angle and just do a tiny little thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:04

Yes, I so agree with that. What add one extra spice, add one extra colour to your plate. That's that's completely it. And you're so right that I love how you incorporate joy into food because somewhere along the way that has got completely missed out, and as you say, we get really we can get fixated on different food groups and restriction and removing whole groups out of our diet that all of a sudden food isn't about joy anymore, and it's it's important that it is.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:34

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:37

Now, I have a few rapid fire questions for you to close off this amazing discussion today. So I'll read the question, you just go with your gut with how to answer. So, what is one healthy habit that actually doesn't work so well for ADHD brains?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:00

I think exercise can be tricky to fit in sometimes because you think uh you might have the best intentions, but then you get kind of like tangled with your day, and you might not have done it in the morning, and then you think, oh, I'll do it in the afternoon, and then like it doesn't happen. And I think just making space for that is so, so important. Like this year has been really busy for me, and uh, I have been doing a lot of exercise in the morning typically, and that's the best time for me. But because of how things have panned out this year, I haven't managed to do it in the morning, and now I'm trying to find space to do it in the afternoon. So I'm I'm having to change my brain around that uh because it feels more natural to do it in the morning, and I feel really good when I've done it, and you know, the endorphins are flowing, and I feel great and I feel accomplished, and it sets me up for the day. But equally, I start work like an hour or an hour and a half later, and it's not panned out. But yeah, just fitting it in, whatever you do for movement and exercise, whether it's a walk or a full workout, I think is really, really important because the benefits for ADHD overall are tangible, uh, they are really researched, and also it just makes you feel good as a person to move, and it's good for your gut microbes, it's just got so many benefits.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:22

Yes, I love that, and I so agree with that. Um, what is one thing about ADHD that you wish more people knew?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:32

Um, about the emotional part of ADHD, because I think um we talk a lot about the hyperactivity, the impulsivity, the lack of attention, and then on the flip side of that, there is the whole kind of like toxic productivity, hack your ADHD, become more productive, download this app that's going to make you work better, blah, blah, all of that. And that can work for some people, it doesn't work for me. Um I think knowing the root cause of why you might be seemingly unproductive or less productive than somebody without ADHD is not the inattention or the hyperactivity or the impulsivity. It's it's probably that you're not regulating properly. And the moment you start embracing that facet or ADHD and the emotions that you might be experiencing and and not being able to label or being overwhelmed by, then you start seeing ADHD from a different angle completely.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:41

I love that. You're so right. I actually have not thought about that until now. That that the emotional side is actually not often spoken about, but it is such a big factor. Um Yeah. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:52

Well we talk about rejection a lot. A lot of people talk about rejection, it's kind of like quite um quite a thing, um, talking about rejection, which is obviously very very important you know re rejection sensitivity dysphoria um or RSD uh is a is it is a thing but it's not the only thing in in uh in ADHD absolutely yeah absolutely is there something that you believe now that you didn't believe ten years ago um yeah I like to think that I believe in myself a little bit more now uh although it's a struggle it's not I'm not like oh my god look at me I'm amazing like I don't like you know I'm more like you should be if you ever need a hype girl you just come to me and I'll tell you I'm not no I know but I will tell you I'm more like oh why would she be doing this with me like you know who am I to do that or like you know I'm I'm always that but also I like being like that rather than be really up myself because I think I really hate people who are really up themselves and they are so obviously up themselves. It's almost like oh my God like this person, the confidence of this person just like being so I wish I had that but at the same time my mom and dad always um told me how being humble was really important and I'd rather have like that angle than be the kind of like really in your face person. Look at me I am so amazing. So but I I do uh I do yeah it's been a journey I think it's like it's just embracing the fact that I can be very messy but at the same time I can be I can do some things that I think wow that was actually quite cool. So it's kind of like embracing believing in myself as a whole person that can be a complete hot mess one minute and like quite brilliant the next yes and that's what makes you amazing that's it I love that and maybe this ties into the next question is if you could go back and tell your younger self one thing what would it be yeah I mean I can I can say all of these kind of like things oh you you know you were always fine and you were never broken and all that kind of stuff which is uh it's it's nice I I think that life is just so um it's just so uh it just gives you so unexpected so many unexpected opportunities and uh and I believe in the opportunities I think uh I said it before my whole life has been quite organic from like moving to the UK that you know I um it was quite unexpected because I I um when I came to the UK in 94 I came with um with a student exchange thing called Erasmus that you know happened in in um in Europe at the time I think it's still going but anyway I applied for like three different places and uh and London was like my fifth choice or something and I was like so disappointed that I got London because I I think I applied for like uh Switzerland Germany um Sydney I applied for like you know like four or five different places in to go and do one year as a student and I got London and I thought oh not London because my sister was living in in the UK and I have been to the UK a lot of times and it was always miserable and raining and cold and I thought I don't want that and then you know I've I've been here 32 years and I'm not looking back. So I think it's uh yeah it's it's that's just one example of how organic my life has been kind of like you know if that you know I cannot really have these ideas what do you want to do in five years time where do you see yourself in five years time I haven't got a clue. But you know it's just uh there's always been opportunities that have come and have taken me to an interesting place. And I think embracing that and uh I'm feeling grateful for those opportunities and also the learning from the crappy opportunities that didn't turn out to be as wonderful as I thought they were going to be as well that's been good.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:43

That is beautiful. Some of the best things in life are unexpected I love that Dr. Miguel you are truly brilliant. You are so wise I love how your brain works and I love how radically authentic you are how vulnerable you are and just how you translate you know really complicated information into something that is so accessible. And so I'm so deeply grateful for you being here and I honestly recommend to everybody to buy your book ADHD Body and mind I'll put a link to it in the show notes. Thank you thank you thank you so much for being here. You've been listening to the Holistic Psychology podcast if you enjoyed this conversation subscribe and share it with somebody who might need it today. Until next time peers to true wellness from the inside out