Myth-Busting the Wellness Trends with Steph Pearson #13

Welcome back to The WHOLEistic Psychology Podcast 🤍

I’m back with one of my favourite people to talk all things nutrition with, my fab friend and colleague Steph Pearson. The wellness space is LOUD right now. Every other week social media decides whether protein, soy, fasting or ashwagandha is the thing that’s going to fix us or finish us off. So, Steph and I asked our communities what they actually wanted us to settle, and we sat down to myth-bust our way through your questions.

Steph is a Nutritionist and Naturopath, and someone I trust deeply, professionally and personally. She works with women in the thick of perimenopause, stress, hormonal shifts and complicated relationships with food, and she has a rare gift for making the evidence feel human and doable rather than overwhelming.

We move through protein and protein powders, the truth about soy, ashwagandha, collagen and creatine, coffee timing, fasting and training to your cycle, sauna and cold exposure, and the questions that don’t usually get said out loud. The thread running through all of it: there’s no one-size-fits-all, and test, don’t guess.

This one is warm, honest and very real. It’s also Part One, because you sent us so many questions we couldn’t fit them all in, so we’ll be back to finish the list.

In this episode, we explore:

✨ The protein hype — who actually needs a protein powder, and how to know whether you’re getting enough without tracking forever

✨ Soy on trial — the difference between processed soy and whole-food soy, and where Steph genuinely sees it help

✨ Ashwagandha, and why “test, don’t guess” matters before you add it to your coffee (including who is better off steering clear)

✨ Collagen — what the evidence does and doesn’t support, and the nutrients Steph would reach for first

✨ Coffee timing, and learning to read your own body’s signs instead of someone else’s rules

✨ Fasting and training to your cycle, and why piling more stress onto an already-stressed body isn’t the answer

✨ Creatine, one of the most researched supplements going, and how to actually take it

✨ The psychology underneath the food — where stress is really coming from, the mental load, and meeting all of this with compassion rather than self-criticism

✨ Sauna vs cold exposure for women, and the question nobody says out loud: low libido with two kids under five, will it ever come back?

✨ A gentle note from me: we talk openly about food, bodies, fasting and eating behaviour in this episode. If your relationship with food or your body feels tender right now, please be kind to yourself as you listen, and come back to it whenever you feel ready. If you’re struggling, reaching out for support is a brave and worthwhile thing to do.

To see more of the wonderful Steph Pearson and her work, you can find her here:

Instagram: @stephpearson.naturopath

Mentioned in this episode:

•  Dr Mindy Pelz — referenced on training and fasting to your menstrual cycle

•  Two Raw Sisters — the recipe app I love for quick, whole-food snacks

•  Creatine monohydrate — the form Steph discusses

•  My conversation with Francesca Lyon on cortisol, stress and the nervous system #7

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the Holistic Psychology Podcast, where psychology meets nutrition, lifestyle, and physical health for a whole-person approach to your mental health. I'm senior psychologist Sophia Dawson. Let's step into true wellness from the inside out. I am back with my amazing friend and colleague, Steph Pearson, a nutritionist naturopath, and somebody that I admire professionally and personally. Thank you for coming back, Steph. Thanks for having me back. You're just so welcome. This I'm really excited about this episode because I feel like there is so much going on in the wellness space at the moment. And there's, I mean, social media pops off all the time about like, is sauring good for you? Is protein good for you? Is soy good for you? And so our aim of this podcast and our intention is to kind of myth bust, right? Yeah, love it. Yeah. So we're gonna go through, we asked our respective followers what they wanted us to talk about. So the questions that I'm gonna ask Steph are guided by those questions from our amazing communities. So we are gonna start with a big one, and I know this is a really common one: the protein height.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Yes. So protein is important. It's important for fullness, satiety, energy, body composition, building muscle, good quality sleep, stable moods, reducing binge eating or reducing crazy sugar cravings. But do I think everyone needs a protein powder? No, I do not think everyone needs a protein powder. I think it's important to look at protein powder as a supplement. It's supplementing what may be missing in your diet. So when I would recommend a protein powder would be for, I guess, pescatarians, vegetarians, vegans, because you possibly are lacking in protein. And I say that with all respect. What I also think is important to validate around the protein is that how do you know you're getting enough if you're not tracking it? And whilst I'm not a huge fan of tracking like long term, I mean, I personally track my calories, my macros, once or twice a year, just for validation, just to keep me on track. And most of the time I'm actually having way too much protein.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

And what happens then?

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Well, if you've got if you're having too much protein, you can see that in a blood marker, you can see that on your protein and your urea and your creatinine. So that would be something that I would go through with my clients. But also, if you have too much protein, it can be too much calories. And like for me, I think because I was so fixated on protein for so long, that it was probably making me feel too full, if that makes sense. Like my meals were too heavy, too large, and as I've got older, I really don't need that much food and protein. Now, I'm not saying that everyone needs to track, and I often get asked this like, do I need to take a protein powder? If you feel like your cravings and your eating behaviour is all in check, if you're feeling pretty good energy-wise, if your your hormones are pretty good, your recovery's pretty good, your sleep's good, then maybe you don't need to be looking at protein.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

But I do think that there isn't such a thing as we all need to be supplementing with protein powders and we all need to be having high protein breakfast and high protein lunch and high protein dinner and protein with all snacks. But I do think if you don't know, then how do you know if you're getting enough?

SPEAKER_02 3:55

Totally. And then my next follow-up question, or it's kind of a statement, but also a question to you, is a lot of the reading that I do in my PhD around protein is suggesting maybe for every kilo of body weight you eat maybe two grams of protein, right? So if you were like 70 kilos, you'd be aiming for 140. Is that is that about right? Is that what people should be aiming for?

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Well, yeah, roughly that. Yeah. I mean, I kind of think it's more around like the 1.2 to 1.6 per kilogram of weight. Okay. Um, but then saying that everyone is different. And like I teach my clients and like I eat, it's not about eating, you know, 30 grams with each meal and then catching up in snacks. I mean, you may not feel good with a super, super high protein breakfast. But if you don't have a super high protein breakfast, you know that you've got room to wriggle and you know that you need to add more with your lunch and your dinner.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

Amazing because I I think this is really helpful because I think people do think they need to be supplementing protein, and that comes from protein powders or protein bars. If you were recommending like your favorite whole food protein sauces, what would they be? Not the bars. Not the bars, I know. I'm not a fan of the bars either. I'm a bit of a like a hesitant fan of the powders because I know they're also ultra-processed. But if I'm gonna have the powders, I have the Mitchell's bone broth chocolate protein powder or the vanilla one. Yeah, me too. It's sort of less ultra-processed. But what are your favourite whole whole food sources of protein?

SPEAKER_00 5:35

I think, yeah, like meat, eggs, dairy, seafood, like organic tofu, organic timpe, and all your legumes, like they are protein as well. It's just making sure that when you build each meal that you're taking into consideration the food groups. And if you are, you know, avoiding meat or you're avoiding dairy, where else can you get your protein in in that meal?

SPEAKER_02 6:01

Yeah. Love that. Amazing, myth busted. Now, next myth or next question, I guess. Is soy bad for us?

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Love this question because soy for so long has been scrutinized and demonized as something that's really bad for everyone. Now, processed soy, so your soy protein isolate, which is in a lot of muesli bars and cereals and processed food, yes, that's not good for you. And that doesn't have the same benefits as the isoflavons from proper soy. So, what I mean by proper soy is probably more like whole food soy. So we're thinking edamami beans, we're thinking tofu, we're thinking tempeh. I personally talk about soy a lot with my clients because that is my season of my clients, perimenopause or low estrogen or fluctuating estrogen. I think there is a time and a place for soy. And it isn't, I guess, in that group because the isoflavins in soy do actually bind to estrogen receptors and help to reduce like the perimenopause or the menopause symptoms like the hot flushes, night sweats, vaginal dryness, improve your body composition and weight loss, and they also protect your bone health too. There have been studies looking at soy isoflavins, so not processed soy, that it can actually help to prevent osteoporosis and reduce fractures in menopause, which I think is fascinating. And I guess it comes down to there's not not everything is right for everyone, right? Like if I had a male that was trying to conceive and he had body composition issues where he needed to lose some weight, possibly had high estrogen, but was having soy milk in a couple of coffees a day and was eating, you know, some processed soy throughout his day, would I be encouraging that? Probably not. I would be coaching him through like that how can we change your milk up? Like that's not a good milk option for you.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's kind of almost the theme of this episode, in a way, right? Like there's not a one size fits all. And there are of everything that we're going to talk about today, there are going to be a group of people that will really benefit. And there are going to be a group of people that maybe it's not kind of optimal for. So it's just holding that in mind when you see these things out there, right? Because I've even heard that about soy. Like I remember years ago, I was like, oh, soy increases your estrogen way too much. And I remember just like cutting, I mean, not that I had very much, but I was really mindful of it. And I think that's again why we're doing this episode, right? So people aren't just fairing foods or like groups of foods and just wiping them out of their diet altogether. Exactly. Love. Next question: Ashwagandha, yeah or nah.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Ashwagandha, one of my favorite adaptogen herbs. But also one of my pet hates. Um, Ashwaganda is in so many, and I'm not going to name any brands because that's not what I'm here to do, but it is in a lot of superfood powders, it's in a lot of multivitamins, it's in a lot of matcha powders, and for a lot of people, ashwagandha can actually make you feel so much worse than better. I think ashwagandha is marketed at, you know, calming and optimizing good quality sleep, um, really helping someone feel better. And yes, if you are a high cortisol pitcher, and without diving into that too much, you do not know. I'm telling you, you do not know unless you test, because a lot of the time you can feel quote unquote high cortisol. You can feel like you're this like hamster on a treadmill, just running, running, running, go, go, go, multiple tabs open, multitasking, feeling quite overstimulated all the time. That's most of my clients. But I often see the other end of that spectrum, I often see low cortisol coming up on their blood test results when it's done accurately, 8 a.m. fasted. And if you were to give someone with low cortisol ashwagonda, which unfortunately I see all the time and I take these clients off it, it can actually make you feel more stimulated and it can cause like that wired, tired, unable to fall asleep. So high cortisol picture, once again, test, don't guess. If you are, then ashwagandha is probably quite good for someone like you. But with ashvagandha, you also need to start slow. This is why specific supplements with specific ingredients need to be applied, not just ashvarand in a powder that is good for everyone, it's not. Ashwagandha, I always use a loading dose to avoid the overstimulating effects that ashwagandha can give someone.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

So, what would that be? Like if you have an ashwagandha powder that you add to your smoothies or your coffee or hot chocolate or whatever you're doing, is how much is one having?

SPEAKER_00 11:22

Well, I think that's quite specific to someone's individual needs when it comes to ashwagandha. I'm not a huge fan of ashwagandha in powders, like what you're explaining, like just add it to the coffee and the smoothies and things like that, because you don't know exactly how much you're getting most of the time. If you take a supplement, then you would take it, depending on what the supplement was. I'm not going to um mention supplement brands, but if it was a supplement, you'd maybe just be taking it like every other day for a week and then seeing how you respond, seeing if your sleep is better, seeing if you feel more calm.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

That's so true. That low cortisol, high cortisol picture that you're talking about. And actually, um Francesca Lyon and I talk about it in my podcast with her, is that it's so important. I think we all just think, oh, if I'm super stressed, I my cortisol must be really high. But actually, if you've had chronic stress over a long period of time and it's been sustained and your body's kind of over it, you're probably going to have low cortisol, but you don't know unless you test. So and I guess what I want to say about this discussion with the Ashwagandha is as a psychologist, my question would be: what's the source of your stress? You know, like if you're considering a supplement for stress, is it actually important that you're considering that that root cause what's generating that in the first place? And I know we live in a really stressful world, you know, and and even just being a human is actually just bloody stressful. But is it is it actually that because there's there's a root cause, maybe like your boss has got emotion regulation issues, or maybe you just feel like you've not got enough support at home, or maybe you're just in a particularly stressful season of life, like whatever it is, maybe it's just important to kind of consider the source. And if it's something that can't be shifted, or it's actually just, you know, you've got young kids and this is just the season of your life, like maybe, yes, something like Ashwagandha or meeting with somebody like you, Steph, um, to be able to kind of tackle that and and make sure that you're supplementing appropriately. Because when we're stressed, of course, we're depleting a lot of our nutrients as well, and we're probably not absorbing a lot of helpful stuff either. So it is more than just putting a powder in your smoothie, as we're talking about, it sounds like.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

I think like ashwagandha can be quite expensive, and you know, something like B12 or vitamin D or some other nutrient that you're possibly depleted in or deficient in may give you better results than taking like an all-rounder, not all-rounder, um, adaptogen herb. Like even in ashwagon, which is another pet pet hate of mine because it is in so many formulas, ashwagonda should not be given to someone with an autoimmune condition because it can stimulate immune activity. And I mean, there is some information out there and education out there about ashwagonda, but it's not good for like hyperthyroidism or um Graves' disease because it can actually increase your thyroid activity. So if you're giving it to someone like that, without understanding their health history or not understanding their, you know, their concerns, it can actually do a lot more harm and make someone feel so much worse than better.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

Oh, it's so important. As you say, test don't guess. And if you want that sort of accurate picture of what needs to be, I guess, like a tailored approach for your individual body to meet with somebody like you. It's so important. Um next question collagen supplements and powders. Type or what like what like just what are your thoughts on collagen supplements and powders? It wasn't really a question, was it? It was more of a statement.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

No, that's right. Um collagen, I I guess I want to state that it's not a true protein. It does break down into amino acids like proteins, but it's not technically replacing protein food or like a protein supplement, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 15:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Um there is some evidence supporting collagen powders and supplements for hair growth and like skin health. But I think there's so many other things that you could be doing for hair and skin health, looking at your blood work once again, looking at your food intake, looking at your, you know, what you're using and your stress. I don't think collagen is kind of like a need for everyone to be on collagen, if that makes sense. I personally put collagen into my hot into my coffee and absolutely love it. I love the taste of it. Yes, it bumps up my, you know, collagen for the day, but I don't necessarily think that it's essential.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

Okay. And for maybe for the people that it is more important for, like, who are those people, do you think?

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Well, there's just not enough evidence to show that collagen is needed. Like there is evidence or emerging evidence around like joint health and bone health. Um, I think most of the studies have been done around like skin elasticity and nails, but I don't I think there's other things that you can be doing. I don't think collagen needs to sit up on the, you know, pedestal as being like the superior if you want to improve anti-aging and um, you know, help your nails grow. I think there's other things that you could be using or talking. What would be what would be two of those top things? It could be maybe you're not having enough protein, maybe you've got iron deficiency, maybe you're not having enough B vitamins, you could have low B12. That's what I would be looking for. Or zinc. Zinc is a massive one that most of us are deficient in.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

I think taking a zinc supplement, if you're concerned about skin health and you know, breaking or brittle nails, is going to do more for you than taking a collagen supplement.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

Love it. Thank you for that. Next question: Coffee? Now, this is kind of, I guess, a three-part question. Before food, after food, or with food?

SPEAKER_00 17:36

I love this question because this is just another example of not a one size fits all. Now, I truly believe, regardless of whether it's with food or away from food, that coffee should be drunk 60 minutes or around an hour after waking, just to allow your natural cortisol rhythm, right? Like don't get me wrong, this there's nothing more that I want to do first thing in the morning, could be five o'clock, six o'clock, is to have a coffee. I just might feel like it. It's just like my mum moment, it's my soul moment. But I did that for so many years, and I honestly don't think it's that good for bloating or digest digestion. And now I do wait. There's no specific rules. I'm not like looking at the clock like I used to, like, come on, five more minutes ago. But I think naturally, if you can allow at least an hour before having a coffee, so you've given you enough time to have some water because we're so dehydrated overnight, and then you consider when you have your coffee, whether it's with or without food. I think everyone is different, and I would encourage you to, I guess, be honest with yourself on how you feel with coffee. Like if you're running to the bathroom after you've had a coffee with or without food, it's probably too stimulating for you. It's probably you need to you need to think about how you're having it. So, as an example, if you are having it on an empty stomach and then you're rushing to the bathroom and you're having a bowel motion, but it's not necessarily like a normal bowel motion, try having it with food and see if you still have the same reaction. If you have coffee in the morning and you're having it with food and you're finding you're getting a little bit jittery, um then maybe you could try having it without food. I think it depends on your nervous system, what your morning's looking like. Like I'm a huge fan of actually, if you love coffee, if you're a coffee lover, like have your coffee, sit down and enjoy it. Like rushing out the door with a coffee in hand, you're already stimulated, you're already pumping through cortisol, and then you have something else that increases your adrenaline, increases cortisol. Your blood sugars for the rest of the day are gonna feel so erratic and so wired and tired, and then you're just gonna completely drop it about, depending on your timing of your coffee. Could be like 10 o'clock, you're like, oh, I'm exhausted. Or it could be three o'clock, you could have that 3:30 artis where you're just so flat and exhausted and your blood sugar's just so low. So I think I personally have mine without food. I have my hot lemon water in the morning after a couple of glasses of room water, room temperature water, and then I have my coffee, and then I have my food about an hour later, and that's what makes me feel good. I don't have any bloating, any digestive issues, I don't get jittery. That's how I prefer it. But some of my clients need it with food. So I think it's important to, yeah, just, I mean, we don't validate how our body feels most of the time. We kind of just do, do, do, do, do, and then we go, why do I feel like that? And there were so many signs and whispers along that day that we have just ignored.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

It's so true. And so therefore, it's so important that we need to tune into our bodies and not kind of tune out and look externally to what our friends or our family or people on social media are doing, just listening to what's going on inside. And I think again, there's sort of this subset of people I know, and this is really evidence-based as well, that um caffeine really provokes their anxiety and um as well as panic in some people too. And so, as you're saying, Steph, to be able to tune into your body and just go, man, am I feeling super anxious after this? Are my thoughts getting more catastrophic, or am I noticing the physiological signs of anxiety sort of like a tight chest, my heart beating really quickly? And is it but it I also think in saying that, and you raised something really important, which is that these trends, or maybe this isn't a trend, but these behaviors that we do kind of in our lives every day, it's so important that a lot of them come from joy too. And it's not just like, oh God, I do notice that I feel a bit more anxious after my coffee. Oh shit, I'm gonna need to scrap the whole thing. It's kind of like a cost benefit analysis, right? Like if the if the joy of it is great enough, who cares if you're a bit jittery? You know, if the if that's like if that's okay. Okay, you know, it's sometimes the the actual ritual itself and the enjoyment of that ritual outweighs the physiological changes that you but then like it's not a matter of like always looking at okay the coffee's made me jittery like what was your sleep like if you have had it on an empty stomach, have you had any water before you've had your coffee?

SPEAKER_00 22:23

If it's making you jittery, when did you last eat? Was it like five o'clock with your kids the night before, or did you eat at say nine o'clock? Like if you're eating dinner at five o'clock, not eating until nine o'clock the next day, you've had a coffee, you've had no water, you've had a shit sleep, that whole thing is gonna make you jittery. It's not just a coffee. Yes, in that situation, coffee is not going to be the best option, especially if you haven't hydrated, but it's a matter of like looking at all the variables, right? Like, this is always what I say. It's not always the last thing you did or the last thing you ate or the last thing you drank. It's yeah, as you say, like looking at all the cues in your lifestyle.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

Yeah, and looking at it flexibly, right? As you just said, if you've had like a really shit sleep and you haven't eaten since 5 p.m. yesterday, maybe today coffee needs to shift time or whatever. So yeah, it's just I I think again that's a theme that is important to think about with all of these things we're talking about today, is the flexibility around M2 and it not being like this rigid thick. Next question Eating before a 6 a.m. gym session, yes or no?

SPEAKER_00 23:39

I think it depends on your goals, your nervous system, your sleep, your eating windows, what type of exercise you're doing, when you're going to get the opportunity to, I guess, have breakfast. Let's just, I guess, have an example. So uh we've got someone that's potentially had her babies, she is wanting to lose a little bit of weight, she's sleeping through the night, she had dinner at six o'clock last night, she had a little cookie and a cup of tea around 7 30, 8 o'clock. She's going to go to the gym and she's gonna do a spin class, or she's gonna go for a walk, or she's gonna go for a anything less than 45 minutes, right? Do I think that she needs to eat before that 6 a.m. gym class? No, probably not. I think she definitely needs to hydrate 100%. But what I would zoom out on is when she last ate, has she hydrated and what was her sleep like? If you had someone that like if I had a client who was wanting to conceive and she was, you know, going through a lot of stress, we had just managed to regulate her periods, possibly a little bit of hypothalamic aminorrhea, you know, not a lot of nourishment coming in or undernourished, she's wanting to go to do an hour run in the morning or a high-intensity, like heavy lifting weight session followed by a half an hour cardio session, and she had ate dinner at say five o'clock. Does she need to eat something? Yes, because her eating window is far too long and her goal is to have a baby, right? So we don't want her body to perceive stress because exercise is stress, but it's a good stress. But you want to make sure that you're nourished. So, what I would encourage her to do is to have like maybe a crumpet with some honey on it, or half a banana, or a date with peanut butter, something really light, but just enough to allow her to not feel icky and full before her workout. But the main goal there was just the fact that she hasn't had a huge elongated overnight fast.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

Yeah. And what what about if the goal isn't conception, for example, and like you're in your 20s and you're just trying to sort of optimize your your health, what would you be doing there if you're getting up for a gym class at six?

SPEAKER_00 26:08

If you have regular periods, I would say yeah, go for it. That's totally fine. As long as you're eating within an hour after your gym class or whatever you're doing. So if you got home at 7.30, I would I would hope that you would then have some breakfast. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because a 7:30 breakfast isn't too late, right? And I mean most of the time, most people don't feel like eating at five o'clock. That's when actually the collagen coffee, if you're having coffee, could just give you enough substance. And once again, that's not like a hard and fast rule. It depends on the client, depends on her hormones, depends on her stress. Um, but personally, that's what I do when I go to the gym for a six o'clock class. I just have a couple of glasses of water and I have my collagen and my coffee. I'm not, I can't eat at that time. But I would be mindful, because I normally eat with my kids around five o'clock, and I've tried not eating after dinner during the week. I would try and have a little something with a cup of tea about eight o'clock, just so I haven't had that huge elongated fast from like five o'clock dinner to the time I get home, it's gonna be 7:30 eating. Like that's a 14 and a half hour fast. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:12

Yeah, yeah. Love that. Next one training and fasting to the men menstrual cycle. Talk to us about that.

SPEAKER_03 27:23

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

I could literally talk about this for a whole podcast. Um, whilst I think you're referring to a particular practitioner who I hugely respect, Dr. Mindy. I respect her work, her opinion. Um, I love her work, but I don't like the fact that there's lots of uh what do we call like ambassadors, social media influencers jumping on board, and I won't name names, but there is a couple that I've recently unfollowed because they are saying that it's been an absolute game changer to their PCOS or it's regulated their cycles. The recommendation on her theory is 16 so 12 to 18 hour overnight fast, and you train to your cycle, right? I will say this honestly, uh from my professional opinion, I'm not a huge fan of training to your cycle. Training to the to the month, because I think everyone feels different. Everyone has a different cycle, everyone feels different on their period or in their ovulatory phase. Like I think most of us know in our luteal phase around ovulation, we should be feeling our best, right? We should be feeling energetic, we should be feeling confident, we should have somewhat of an increased libido, we should be able to go hard and heavier at the gym. That is probably not most of my, I'd say 90% of my clients actually feel worse during ovulation. Now, of course, that's a hormonal issue. So if you're following someone's instructions to elongate your fast around that time, that's another stressor on the body. I am, yeah, I'm not a fan of fasting full stop, but what I do like is like I guess a delayed fast. So you like personally I do from 12 to 14 hour fasts most days. But if there's any a month where I'm not ovulating or my cycle changes or my period card changes, or I've got lots of stress going on, there's no way that I'm gonna do I'm gonna put more stress on my body by not eating until lunchtime. Yeah. I mean, I I would question who actually feels better whilst doing that, but I would also like what I say to my clients when they are fasting when they come and see me, or for talking about delaying their f their eating windows and having like, say, for example, a later breakfast, like 10, 11 o'clock. If that works for you and you feel like it's reduced your food noise, it's reduced your food cravings, you've got really good energy, you're sleeping well, you're recovering well, that's great. But most of the time, and I say this honestly, most of the time that my clients are coming to me after going through a period of fasting or wanting to fast, they've got a unhealthy relationship with food. So there's not a lot of eating going on during the day and then binging in the evening, which makes up for all of the undernourishment and the undercalories that they've got until that point. They're feeling fatigued, they've got chronic stress, they're not sleeping well, just under a lot of stress. It's not I just don't think fasting is going to be the right thing for that person. If the first meal of the day, if you are doing fasting and it's like a proper meal with protein, fats, fibre, carbohydrates, if you're eating well on that first meal and then you're having, say, like a little snack in the afternoon and then a proper dinner, and that's working well for you, then maybe that's working well for you. But most of the time I'm finding that that first meal of the day is not the best. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

Fair enough. That makes a lot of sense. And again, I think that encourages tuning into your body as well. And I think also asking the question of is this adding to my mental load or is it reducing my mental load? Um, because and and also like why am I wanting to do these things? Like, is it what is it driven by? Is it driven by my values of like, you know, I just I want my health to be in an optimal place? Like I want to feel experience that sort of vitality and wake up every day and have energy to run around with my kids or show up at work the best that I can. Or is it driven by like I hate my body, I hate the way I look in the mirror, you know, I want to change my appearance. It's it's like being really honest with yourself about where that's coming from, right? I think it's just it's important that we're always coming from a place of compassion and love for ourselves and nurturance and treating ourselves the way that we would treat the people that we love in our lives.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

So that's just an important and I think it's just another rule, right? Like it is, exactly. I'm all about trying to break these rules that we're so fixated on if we've been taught for years around diet culture. Like it's just another rule that people are having to be mindful of and adhere to. Why don't we just try and like understand food and understand what makes us feel better and understand like what a good breakfast, lunch, and dinner is. If you can eat that a good breakfast, lunch, and dinner and not be grazing and not be mindlessly snacking throughout the day, I think you've done a great job. I don't think we need to fast to get to that point.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

Yeah. Um I love that. I love that. Next question Personal health habits and vices. You go first. I've done a lot of talking. Oh must. Okay, okay, okay. I haven't actually even thought about this, but okay, personal health habits. Let me think. Um, I move my body every day, whatever that might look like, um, whether it's a walk, whether it's stretching in the evening, yoga, gym, Pilates, like whatever. Sorry if you can hear my little dog yapping in the background. Um, I try to make my food at home as much as possible. Like eat whole foods, cook, I know what's going into it. I have a lot of vices, and I don't even know if I would call them vices because I just think that's just another word for things that make life bloody epic. Um, so I would say I eat chocolate every day, 100%, but when I'm eating it, it's always quality. So that is something that I would invest in. Um, and what would be something else? Oh, I definitely I think advice for me, and this is maybe like a behavior, I really used to be that person that was like, and Steph, you knew me at this time, where I was like, I have to run, like I have to run multiple times a week. Um, it was probably driven by some unhelpful thoughts, and rather than coming from a place of you know, just wanting to love my body and make it as healthy, you know, because my future self would be stoked for me. Um so yeah, I think now for me, like movement is really just what am I feeling like tuning into my body, and so those are my habits. And so I just really promote flexibility, not rigidity when it comes to what you're eating. Because if you again, if you want to call it a vice, like if I go out for dinner, I eat whatever the hell I want. Like if I feel like chocolate, I eat that. If I knowing that the foundation for me is about 80, 80% pretty solid stuff. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

And that's why we're besties, I think, because we're both the same kind of philosophy. Um, mine's probably not that yours is boring, but mine is probably just as boring.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

Yeah, we're just boring because it's just the foundational stuff, right? You feel so good.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

Like it's not about like I could add in there like massage and facials. Of course I love those, but that doesn't, that's not longevity for me, and that doesn't make me feel good every day. Like what makes me feel good every day, and what is my I guess my non-negotiables, like as a personal health habit, would be I could be anywhere on holiday, hotel, staying with family, um, but I have to have my hot lemon water every morning. I just have to. Yes, I know that about you, and I love that about you because it's something I try and do, but yeah, I don't honestly like I could have kids yelling at me, I could have Lim saying I'm starving. I'm like, no, no, no, everyone needs to wait till I've got my hot lemon water ready. Um, another thing that I uh what's another thing? Oh, it could be like five o'clock in the morning or it could be seven o'clock. Um, one could wish seven o'clock a.m for a wake-up. That's never seen yourselves. All my blinds curtains are open. As soon as I'm up, it's the first thing. I'm literally walking down the hallway, opening everyone's blinds and everyone's windows, and my husband hates it. He's like, it's five o'clock in the morning, it's freezing outside. I'm like, no, I just want the fresh air and I want to have see the sun come up. So I basically do that, and then I have my hot lemon water. Um, yeah, water, it's so boring, but I feel best when I have about three litres of water a day, which sounds like a lot. Um, another vice. I mean, sorry, another health habit. Um, bed by nine. I am yeah, I just need to be in bed by nine. It's not my my little space that I need to optimize. And then when I don't, I probably work, you know, late once or twice a week. And I always feel it. I always feel it in my sleep quality and I feel it the next day. And probably similar to you, I uh we have takeaways once a week, but other than that, I literally never ever buy any food out. Like I don't have clients on a Friday, and my husband's always like, Why don't you go to a cafe? And because I always doing like protocols or some type of business work, and he says, Why don't you take your computer and go and sit in a cafe? And I'm like, I just get food disappointment.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

I just I'm like, no, but I love my lunch at home. I do, don't I? I know that. I yes, you do. And it's because like you're so good at cooking.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

Like, that's why you just like you make amazing stuff at home, and then you go out, and then so you think, Oh, if this is a cafe and I'm paying for this, this is gonna be like 11 out of 10. And so I yes, I it's so true. I know that about you.

SPEAKER_00 37:35

Like, well spending like because often I'll have, I mean, I've actually gone off eggs at the moment, eggs are making me feel a bit ick, but like say I will go out and have like a smoked salmon and cream cheese bagel, and I'm paying like $30 for that. And I would I always do this. I go, I could have made that at home. So yeah, probably like homemade food is another one for me, although I do love a takeaway, and like you, I go all out and I just eat everything and I love it all. Um, my vices are I've done really well this year. I used to have chocolate every night, but it used to go from like your type of style of like good quality chocolate. And as chocolate prices have gone up, I've kind of gone to the dark side, and I won't say the dark side, and I've I know the dark side. Having some of that, and I just realized that a whole block of that can go in a a night. And so I've told myself that actually chocolate is for the weekend and during the week I don't have any. But my my probably my biggest vice, and this just seems so unheard of for a natural path nutrition is is red wine. I if it wasn't so bad for you, I would drink like I could I would drink every night. And there's been times in my life where I have, and I've had to pull myself in and be like, Steph, this is a carcinogenic. Like you cannot drink every single night. It's not good for you, it's not good for weight, it's not good for sleep, it's not good for your moods. But if it wasn't for all those baddies, I would drink every single night. I love red wine, so that's probably my advice.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

Love that. And actually, the next question is really similar, but um daily non-negotiables for overall wellness, and I definitely have a couple that I would add to this. I think um, I think working for myself makes this quite a privileged thing to say. But if I was like really shattered, I would prioritize having a quick nap over hustling harder because I just I so believe in the power of rest. And I always frame it like I'm gonna be way more effective in myself if I have adequate sleep, as you were talking about, and adequate rest for sure. I also think I ask myself a lot, you know, what is future me going to be really stoked I've done. And so that even future me tonight, you know. So I think if I'm like, okay, I am hungry and I want something sweet and I know that I want that like every day around three o'clock, then I will make like your cookie recipe stuff, or like, you know, collagen cookies or um something from the Tural Sisters app or something like that that I can just have in my fridge, have in my freezer, and then dip into. Like, yes, it's a bit of a pain in the ass to like cook stuff or bake stuff quickly now, but it doesn't take long. And my future self is always like, oh, I'm so glad I've done this, and that kind of lends into my the the important value to me of like cooking a lot of stuff at home. Um, and then I would also say make your bed first thing in the morning because when you do that, your future self is already like really stoked with you, and it's just such a nice way to to open the day, but otherwise everything else I've just said in the previous question. But Steph, what do you reckon?

SPEAKER_00 40:45

Um my daily non-negotiables, yeah, like similar to the boring things like the water and the lemon water. Um, three proper meals, like how easy is it to forget lunch and then you feel crap for the rest of the day? How easy is it to kind of go, I'll just grab that protein ball that you've made in the fridge and cool that breakfast with my coffee? That is not going to keep you going all morning. You're not going to feel your best. Um what is another one? Yeah, like I'm a I'm a clean freak, like to the point where it's kind of a little bit OCD-y. Um, my house just has to be clean at all times. So my house is clean before I go to bed, my house is clean after I drop the kids off to school, my house is clean now that I'm working, it just makes me feel calm. I can't have mess around me because it makes me feel erratic and a little bit scattery. And whilst I don't, and I wish I could, um, I mean I can I can, I work for myself, but I don't allowing or making time for exercise every day. It's still something that I'm working on. But I think if, yeah, moving your body every day should be a non-negotiable. But I do, my last client goes till 2.30. So if I haven't moved all day and I've been sitting on my butt like I will be today, you know, I'll make sure that whilst it'll be easy just to check emails and reply to someone or start a protocol, I'm straight down the car and I'll just walk for 10 minutes, 15 minutes before I pick up my daughter and my son. And it is really just that like fresh air, time for yourself, time to switch off from your different roles and yeah, just like find what brings you joy. That's something I often ask my clients, and not a lot of people know the answer to that, which just saddens me. But it's finding joy doesn't need to be like, as we've kind of just touched on before, like a massage or going to get your nails done. Like what brings me joy is like currently it's a really nice day here. I've got all my doors, all my windows open. It is just beautiful, like that. But if I was in a and I know privileged, but if I was in a small, dark, gloomy room, that would not make me feel good for my wellness. So it's finding the small things that can bring you joy during your day.

SPEAKER_02 42:54

And I think a big one that both of us have kind of missed actually is um social connection. Yes, yeah. You know, you and I for we do a lot of that. We're like voice messaging a lot of the day, every day, um, which is why podcasts are so cool because this is like actually a lot of what we talk about. Um but honestly, feeling connected to other people like is I think actually for me, probably the most important thing that I do in a day. And especially when things are particularly hard, um, I think there are people out there, and I know because I see lots of clients that, you know, when things are really tough, they isolate away and they withdraw from the people that matter to them. And the problem with that is that that sort of perpetuates the sense of like I'm alone, I'm different to other people, nobody else is experiencing what I am. But when you voice the fucked up thoughts that you have or like the feelings, it it is one of the most powerful things that you can do because it just and it's so powerful for your wellbeing. As well, to feel that that connection. And so if you are not connecting with like at least one person you love in a day, do that. That is like number one, I reckon.

SPEAKER_00 44:12

And I think more so far, like in our industries where we give a lot and we are with humans all day, virtually or in person, it can feel like you've been around humans a lot, but you haven't actually had that true switch off social connection. Like as you touched on before, we voice message probably at least once a day. And there's probably two of my other best friends that we voice message every day. And whilst that's probably not enough, at least it's something to be able to offload or just to talk to someone that's not necessarily a work-related thing. Because like, I mean, I don't have a huge social life and I don't see my friends as often as I would like. But I don't feel like I'm missing out because I still get to talk to you and my other friends regularly. And it's important, you're right.

SPEAKER_02 44:57

That's it. And like again, as you say, you don't have to live in the same town or city as them. Shoot them a voice message. Like, there is something really amazing about hearing that person's voice, even if you are geographically separated. So important. Um now I reckon we've got time for two more.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 45:15

So actually, this this one I would actually add to my personal health habits: sauntering, which I try and do um fairly frequently, and contrast therapy. So Steph, what do you think about sauna and contrast therapy for women in particular?

SPEAKER_00 45:39

It's a no from me. I love sauna for women, um, but I'm not a fan of cold exposure, cold plunging. Um, I women are more sensitive to cold in general. If you are underfueled, you're stressed, you're sleep deprived, which is probably most of my clients, you're probably gonna actually feel more anxious and more dysregulated. I I think a lot of the time, well, I see this in a lot of women, that the if you're more anxiety prone, which I would say is most of you know, most of us. Yeah, um coal can actually make you full feel more stimulated. Whilst a lot of I've got a lot of friends that do cold plunging, and yes, you may feel great when you're in there, and then you may feel invigorated when you get out. I yeah, I would just love to know how that affects the rest of your day. Yeah. I I just think, I mean, I personally hate the cold. My body constitution does not like cold at all. So I would never was one of my best friends, she's always like, come, come with me. I'm like, you can't pay me to get in there, Beth. Like, I don't want to jump in the sea. Like, I don't even want to be cold at home. I don't even want to go in the kids' swimming pool when they do swimming lessons because it's so cold. But for athletes and for men, love cold plunging contrast therapy. But for women, I am normally more of a fan of sticking to the heat ones, like the sauna. The sauna, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:14

I I feel that. I think that's really important. And I think also what the sauna can bring. Again, it's like a ritual, but it's also a moment of stillness. Like I love either going with friends um and having that social connection element. But if I'm not with friends, then I would make it more of like a meditative experience. Um, and so I think there's those benefits as well. So love that, Steph. Thank you. Um, oh my goodness, which one do I choose? Any ones that we don't cover, we will, we will come back. Um, I would say let's go with creatine. Steph, what is your lens on creatine?

SPEAKER_00 47:52

Love, love, love, love, love, love, love creatine. Um creatine is one of the most researched supplements. I think a lot of the time we thought of creatine for like athletes and bodybuilders. Um, there is emerging, well, there is research looking at it for like the prevention of Alzheimer's and dementia, looking at it for sleep-deprived um people, um, looking at it from an energy perspective, from a performance perspective, for increasing recovery. Um, creatine increases your ATP production, which is like your energy production within your cells. So who doesn't need more energy? But I think what's important is to look at the form of creatine that you are having, or whether it's in a gummy, whether it's in a powder, whether it's in a tablet. I normally only recommend a couple of brands, and as I said, I'm not going to mention brands on the podcast, but monohydrate. Creatine monohydrate or creatine creapure. Um, they are both water washed and the best um quality for creatine. Creatine can make you feel a little puffy, it can make you feel like you've put on weight, it can make you feel like you're a little bit bloated. Um, like everything, like what we've just spoken about in this podcast, it's there's not one thing that fits all. It's not just grabbing those gummies and grabbing that protein and expecting that you're going to feel as amazing as your mum or your sister or your friend. There is a like a particular dose that a lot of people should start on, and I would say it's three to five grams. Some people can go up to 20, some people can't go higher than seven. Um, once again, it's kind of like the coffee. Are you okay on it on an empty stomach? If you're getting a little bit bloated and you know, noticing a difference in your um digestion, maybe you need to be having it with food. Um, there is some research looking into it causing sleep disturbances. So ideally, I'm always getting my clients to have it before two. There is a lot of kind of trendy um stuff going on at the moment with adding creatine to coffee. Um, if that makes you feel good, go for it. Um, for a lot of people, that can be quite stimulating. Um, creatine can also um make you feel a little bit um yeah, puffy and bloated if you're not drinking enough water. So creatine is will naturally make you feel a little bit dehydrated, hence probably why I drink three to four litres of water a day because I do take creatine every day. And on the days that you don't drink enough water, you can feel it. So yeah, love, love, love, love, love. But once again, it's not just a one thing fits all.

SPEAKER_02 50:30

It's not, it's not. And hey, I think we have like just a couple of minutes to fit this last one in because I think this one is really important um for people. But in this stage, low libido, two kids under five, will my sex drive ever return?

SPEAKER_00 50:45

I'm still waiting to. Did you write this question? You not me. When I saw this, I was oh, this is I don't have two kids under five. But um honestly, as women, when we are when our nervous system is overloaded, when we are like constant on mode, we've got no downtime, we're you know, possibly not feeling confident in our own skin, we're not having any time to fill our cup, there's so much decision making going on. The last thing you're going to feel like doing, and probably let me make a note, probably touched out. Like I'm pre-kids, very, very touchy person. But since having my children, I mean, I give my friends a cuddle and a kiss, but when it comes to the night time, I just want to hop into bed and just go to sleep. I don't want to be touched, my poor husband. Um so, yes, a lot of that comes down to your lifestyle, a lot of that comes down to the nervous system, a lot of that can come down to hormones. Um, you know, I I think that for men it's very different when they are a dad and if they are at work all day and they've got chronic stress, they probably still have a little bit of that drive in them, um, thanks to testosterone. But I mean, what I would encourage you to do, if this is you, um, you know, having a chat to your husband or your partner about like what does your evening ritual look like? Like, me and my husband have had to have this conversation that if he gets home at say 8, 8:30, he's had his dinner on his own, and then he sits down on the couch. He'll hate the fact that I'm talking about him like this, sits down on the couch and starts scrolling on Instagram, and then 15 minutes later goes, Oh, shall we head to bed? And I'm like, No way, like you haven't been present, you've just got home. That is not that is not turning me on right now. So, not that I expect like a Channing Tatum performance in my lounge, but like there needs to be some aspect of okay, I'm feeling good in myself, I've had a great day, I've had some downtime, you know, I'm kind of ready to go to bed. I honestly think this is probably one of the most common complaints in the woman that I see. And, you know, it probably will return. And I don't know when that is, whether that's when your children have left home. Or, you know, a b a big thing for women is if you're not feeling confident, you don't want to be touched, right? Like we've all been there. And the last thing if you're feeling like you're not comfortable in your own skin or you've got some weight that you want to lose, or you're feeling bloated from the day, the last thing you feel like doing is someone touching your body.

SPEAKER_02 53:11

Totally, totally, and like also what you're saying, like the mental load, like the mental load you're hearing, when you've got like 17,000 things on your mind and all these different tabs open, I feel like libido can return when that load eases as well, like when things start getting taken off your plate and the stress kind of reduces too, right?

SPEAKER_00 53:33

Well, as a mum, and like touch becomes functional, like mum, pick me up, mum, can I sit on your lap while I'm having my dinner? It's not intimate.

SPEAKER_02 53:41

No.

SPEAKER_00 53:42

But then when you get to the end of the day, and this is the first time probably all day you haven't been touched or sat on or uh whatever, and you now you want that time just to be within yourself. Yeah. And it's really hard. I mean, I I sound like I'm joking about it because I'm laughing with whoever had said this because I'm with you too. Um, but I I do think that there is a time and a place in your life, but possibly now, two kids under two, it's not your season. Yeah, yeah. And also, like I remember hearing, and my I mean my husband often talk about this. Sorry, just quickly, I know we've only got a minute to go. Um, that, you know, the average time that a couple has intimacy or intercourse a week, it like he's given me some ridiculous number. He's completely made it up. I mean, having a conversation with your partner or your husband about like what is going to work for you. Is it once a week? Is it once a month? Is it a couple of times a week? Like and coming to like coming to a conclusion or a happy place for both of you with how that can how you can make that work.

SPEAKER_02 54:47

Totally. And in the context of all of that, just being compassionate about it. Oh, everything that you said just then about you know being touched out and like being touched when you have two kids, like two young kids, is more about like they need stuff from you. So just to be able to consider, you know, I've got a lot on my plate at the moment. Fair enough that I don't want to jump into bed every 30 seconds. Um this season, like this season will come back, you know. Like it's just it's just not now. This is not the season, but one day it will be again. Steph, you're bloody amazing. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your wisdom, and um, we will be back to finish these questions that we didn't get to. Thank you. So bye. You've been listening to the Holistic Psychology Podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, subscribe and share it with somebody who might need it today. Until next time, peers to true wellness from the inside out.