Therapy isn't about being "fixed" - it's about being understood with Grace Lawrie

Two therapists demystify what therapy really is, why it matters, and how to know if it's right for you in this warm, honest conversation about mental health support.

• Therapy comes in many forms (thought-based, body-based, spiritual) but all aim to help you function better in relationships and life
• Finding the right therapist is like dating - the relationship itself is crucial for success
• True therapy isn't about being "fixed" but about being understood, supported, and witnessed
• The best time to find a therapist is when you're NOT in crisis, though most people wait until they're desperate
• Healing isn't a destination but a lifelong process - you can access therapy throughout different life stages
• Behind the scenes, therapy offices are designed to be warm, comfortable spaces (not clinical environments)
• The therapeutic relationship provides something unique: someone completely on your side without their own agenda

Follow along for more grounded, soulful conversations and know that this space is here to support you.

Episode Guest:

Meet Grace Lawrie, LPC – Therapist, Healing Partner, and Advocate for Neurodivergent & LGBTQIA+ Communities

Grace is a deeply intuitive and compassionate therapist who brings a holistic, embodied approach to healing. Rooted in the belief that the therapeutic relationship is the foundation of transformation, Grace creates a space of safety, curiosity, and collaboration where clients can explore their inner landscapes and reconnect with their inherent wisdom.

With training in Internal Family Systems (IFS), Gestalt therapy, somatic practices, and Ketamine-Assisted Psychotherapy (KAP), Grace supports clients in aligning their emotional, physical, and psychological selves. Her work is anchored in anti-oppressive, trauma-informed, and neurodiversity-affirming frameworks—making her a trusted guide for neurodivergent individuals, LGBTQIA+ clients, and those navigating complex trauma, identity exploration, and non-traditional relationships.

As a clinician for queer and nuerodivergent folks, Grace brings lived experience, deep empathy, and authenticity into every session. Whether supporting clients through emotional healing, relationship dynamics, or psychedelic integration, she empowers them to move from surviving to thriving—on their own terms.

To contact Grace Lawrie

Email: grace@movingpartspsychotherapy.com

Psychology Today Profile - Grace Lawrie

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to Couch Time with Cat
• 2:06 What Therapy Really Is
• 5:30 Attachment Work and Common Myths
• 9:44 Why We Wait for Rock Bottom
• 14:41 The Real Therapy Experience
• 22:43 How to Know When Therapy Works
• 27:45 Final Thoughts and Contact Information

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to Couch Time with Cat, your safe place for real conversation and a gentle check-in. KWVH presents.

Speaker 2: 0:08

Couch Time with Cat. Welcome to Couch Time with Cat. Mental wellness. With a friendly voice. I'm your host, Cat, a trauma therapist, coach, best-selling author and TEDx speaker with years of experience supporting people around the world as they navigate healing, growth and everything in between. But more than that, I'm just someone who's endlessly curious about what makes us tick and how we can live with more meaning, connection and compassion. We're coming to you today from the beautiful Texas Hill Country at Wimberley Valley Radio, and I'm so glad you're here. This show is about real conversations about what it means to be human, how we struggle and how we heal, and today we're starting with the basics.

Speaker 2: 0:51

What is therapy really? What are some of the biggest myths people have about it, and how do you know if it's right for you To unpack all of this? I'm joined by my dear friend and fellow therapist, grace Laurie, someone who brings so much clarity, presence and heart to the work of healing. You're in for a treat.

Speaker 2: 1:12

Grace is a deeply intuitive and compassionate therapist who brings a holistic, embodied approach to healing, rooted in the belief that the therapeutic relationship is the foundation of transformation. Grace creates a space of safety, curiosity and collaboration where clients can explore their inner landscapes and reconnect with their inherent wisdom. With training in internal family systems, gestalt therapy, somatic practices and ketamine-assisted psychotherapy, grace supports clients in aligning their emotional, physical and psychological selves. Her work is anchored in anti-oppressive, trauma-informed and neurodiversity forming frameworks, making her a trusted guide for neurodivergent individuals, lgbtqia plus clients and those navigating complex trauma, identity exploration and non-traditional relationships. Complex trauma, identity exploration and non-traditional relationships. Grace brings lived experience, deep empathy and authenticity into every situation. Whether supporting clients through emotional healing, relationship dynamics or psychedelic integration, she empowers them to move from surviving to thriving on their own terms. Hi, Grace, oh, hello, welcome. That's quite an introduction, I know I was like yeah, all that Welcome.

Speaker 1: 2:25

That's quite an introduction. I know I was like, yeah, all that is true.

Speaker 2: 2:27

You sound very impressive, thanks. Really, I'm just Grace. How does it feel to hear all your work parts into one little segment?

Speaker 1: 2:38

It's wild. I mean, we were talking before this. I really just do what I like. And so to hear all of it written in one place, I was like oh yeah, that is me.

Speaker 2: 2:53

That is who I am. Yeah, yeah, thank you for being here, grace. I am so happy to be here. Oh my God, I'm so excited. Listener, Grace and I have been friends for a long time and we went to school together, we did training together, we've had our comeuppance together and now we're both out in the world being therapists, and Grace is going to help us unpack. What is therapy? When do we know we need it? Like, let's start with the basics, yeah.

Speaker 1: 3:16

Yeah, I mean, I think what is therapy is a great question, because people probably have a lot of ideas from movies or right these maybe outdated kind of Freudian yeah, this blank slate, uh person who sits across from you and maybe nods as you cry yes, um, not that, there's maybe not an element of that at times.

Speaker 1: 3:41

But yeah, therapy is a lot more than that, I would say. You know, first, there are so many different types of therapy and so I I just don't know that. People know that, I don't know that, I knew that until we were in school how different the therapeutic experience is based on the type of therapist you kind of have in front of you.

Speaker 2: 4:06

And what you're needing healed?

Speaker 1: 4:07

Yes, yes, but there's thought-based, there's body-based, there's depth psychology or there's kind of spiritual elements. There's so many different types of therapy and really what it aims to do is give you tools so that you can function better in your life and the ways that you relate to other people.

Speaker 1: 4:33

The ways that you go about doing that really, really varied, and so I would say that there's no one right path. I think people don't hear often enough that finding a therapist is like dating right. Like I firmly believe that the therapeutic relationship is so much of a determiner of success that most definitely really find a person. When you're with them, you feel comfortable, you enjoy seeing them, you like them, you feel liked by them.

Speaker 1: 5:04

Right like this is a big part of it right, it's not it's not a like drive-through experience, where you just kind of go to who's in your area. I would say it really has to be the right person too.

Speaker 2: 5:19

Yeah yes, yes, yes. I often tell my clients that there are different things, there are different levels going on in therapy. There's what we're talking about, and then there's some skill building, and then there's the cellular change that's happening at the foundation, like how do I relate to somebody, how do I be in relationship with somebody With boundaries, with kindness, with compassion? Like you're kind of relearning that template and readjusting your calibration Totally.

Speaker 1: 5:56

I mean, and so much of it is attachment work, right, like we as humans have these things called mirror neurons, right? So, our systems are quite literally co-regulating with the person in front of us. If we feel safe in someone's presence, if we feel fully accepted and loved I mean I think that clients maybe don't know that we love them, but we do- I know I tell them that a lot and I'm like, no, I really do.

Speaker 2: 6:22

Yeah, which I know can sound bizarre, like we're not related, but it's a love for them.

Speaker 1: 6:27

Yes, yes, most definitely and and it's a love that really often I think some people haven't had access to which is incredibly healing right so here's a person who's mirroring back at you, seeing you being attuned to you, holding their regulation, holding the container of safety, and your nervous system can kind of just be yes, relax into that.

Speaker 2: 6:49

Yeah, that exhale is huge. So you're saying that therapy is really there's all. There are all these specialties, like different doctors. Right, you have an orthopedist and I don't know. Tell me a different doctor.

Speaker 2: 7:05

My brain was like I doctor, that's the only doctor you think of Great Ophthalmologist, orthopedist, both doctors, completely different experiences, right, right? So, listener, the therapy experience is similar. Different therapists are going to address different things, but if you're going to a good therapist wink, wink then you are also really doing attachment work. Yeah, simultaneously it's a parallel healing your building skills, but you're also really repairing that, usually attachment wounds yeah, we all have them.

Speaker 1: 7:43

I would say so yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:44

Yeah, that's not a pejorative. We've all got them somewhere. Yeah, and that's okay. Okay, ooh, what's one of the biggest myths you hear about therapy?

Speaker 1: 7:55

I mean, I think that healed is like a destination, right. That you've arrived you've achieved it, you get your star. You're done with therapy Certificate. You've achieved it, you get your star. You're you're done with therapy certificate. I mean, I love a certificate, I love excelling, I love a certificate. A plus, a plus at therapy.

Speaker 1: 8:11

But I think that maybe what people don't realize is that it is a resource for the entire lifespan not that you're continuously in therapy your whole life, but you can drop in on something and it really serve you in that part of your life. You utilize those skills, you continue living. You have more experiences. You have more relationships. Something else comes up where you notice where there might be a block Again you come back to therapy. That doesn't mean that you've backslid right. Really often that means you've grown.

Speaker 1: 8:42

That means that you can see a new place that you couldn't see from the place you were before. That's right, right, so, um, I would say that there's no like healing is not a destination this is a resource you can access your life. I mean, imagine if you thought, going to the doctor once, you were like I have health now. That's it, I'm out of here.

Speaker 2: 9:03

At 15,. You're like bam did it. Healthy forever, that'd be great.

Speaker 1: 9:08

Yeah, that'd be excellent.

Speaker 2: 9:12

Why do you think that? Well, I think that it's loosening up a little bit the stigma, but the way we go back to I keep thinking about a couch oh, couch time with Cat. Maybe that's why, wow. So I keep thinking, when we need something new or we need a refresh in our home, we're like, great, it's been five years, it's time for a new couch. Or 10 years, it's time for a new couch, or whatever it is. We're okay with that, we're okay with those refreshers, but we have a little bit more resistance to a mental refresher.

Speaker 1: 9:48

Yeah, why? I don't know. I don't know. I feel like we've been in this for long enough that I can't imagine my life without having my own therapist right Like it's such an excellent space to process to have someone who isn't directly involved in the dynamics of my life who can hold that? Where I can say anything and be accepted. There's nothing I'm going to say that is going to push me out of relationship.

Speaker 2: 10:19

For people who are new to therapy. Why do you? Why can you explain why having somebody outside of your world is important?

Speaker 1: 10:28

Like their perspective is important.

Speaker 2: 10:29

Why is that?

Speaker 1: 10:30

Right, I mean. So you know. Let's say I'm going through a difficult time at work and I call my mom. My mom is going to have all of the context of what it is to be in the role of mom Right. Maybe, she's worried if I don't have a job. That means she's going to have to support me. Or maybe she's seen how anxious I get when I'm not busy. Whatever?

Speaker 1: 10:53

that narrative she has about me is we're not working on what it is I'm actually coming to her with. She has some preconceptions about who I am about what the situation means, about how it? Affects her, All of these layers which are so normal, right, Like that's part of all of our relationships With a therapist. There's curiosity there, right? What is it about your job? What's the dynamic that's coming up? When has it come up before?

Speaker 2: 11:21

What does?

Speaker 1: 11:21

that look like in your life? How does it play out in other places? What is the anxiety that holds you back when you're in situations that don't align with? You. Why don't you step out? Of that, right, what is the anxiety that comes from you not being quote-unquote busy? What does that mean for you in your life? Right, so there's so much curiosity, whereas really often when we go to friends or we go to family members, right, it's maybe some curiosity, but there's more kind of closed advice.

Speaker 2: 11:49

And they have a vested interest in you know your outcome, for whatever reason, right, yeah. So having somebody who is outside of your life I think also for the client experience lets them put their guard down for a moment, because they know the therapist is there to help. Yes, right, they're not there for they don't have an agenda, like I don't have an agenda for my clients, it doesn't. I want them to be fulfilled totally.

Speaker 1: 12:22

I always say I don't have a horse in this race, right like I'm just here.

Speaker 2: 12:26

Even sometimes I want them to be fulfilled if they want to be. I even say you don't have to be if you don't want. So there's like there's just so much autonomy that I try to open up and make available for the client so they can really think about what it is that they want, not what it is somebody else wants for them, right.

Speaker 1: 12:48

Mm-hmm, and sometimes it's difficult to make a change in your life with only the support of people who have only known you one way, if that makes sense right, mm-hmm, it can be useful to have an outsider be able to reflect. There are other ways of being that are possible and if those are, what you want. I can support you to get there?

Speaker 2: 13:15

Yeah, most definitely. Why do you think so many people feel like they have to hit rock bottom before seeking support? This is a question that I thought earlier when you were saying about the client experience and just how sometimes, by the time you find a therapist, you're not really in the mood to find a therapist. You really need help ASAP.

Speaker 1: 13:43

Right. Yeah, I mean, I think there are so many reasons right. There's traditional stigma around mental health and what it means to have a therapist. I think that's changing, but there is definitely a long time where having a therapist was looked down upon.

Speaker 1: 14:00

It meant that you had some issue rather than you were using a tool or a resource. I would say that that's part of it. But then the other part is right, like life's really busy. We can, we can talk ourselves out of so many things that are good for us because life is really busy, right, like, did I go to the gym, did I? Eat all the vegetables I wanted to eat today, whatever that story is doing the thing that feels good takes time and effort, and that's understandable.

Speaker 1: 14:30

We don't always have the resources, the bandwidth, the time for doing the thing that feels good. And then, once we're in it right, it makes other things easier, which is how all of these things work. But that initial kind of threshold of getting there right when we hit rock bottom we need it so bad that that's the time right when we can't do anything other than make time for it. We can't do anything other than get the help right. But I will say that the sooner that you receive the help, the easier it is and rock bottom is not necessary.

Speaker 2: 15:08

Right, right. And as I'm listening to you, I'm also thinking I've never really thought about this. But when is the best time to look for a therapist? Probably not when you're in a crisis. Yeah, I would say maybe, like have a resource, have, yeah, have, have a breaking case of emergency, know where're going to go. Maybe you've set up a few sessions and you get to know a therapist and you really like them and that's great, and then you have somewhere to go when things get really hard.

Speaker 1: 15:39

Well, I mean, I say to clients you know, there are people who come to me and they're in a particularly hard season of life and we do some work and then things get easier and they're like okay, I'm done.

Speaker 2: 15:48

I'm out.

Speaker 1: 15:53

Right season of life and we do some work, and then things get easier and they're like okay, I'm done, I'm out, right and and it's actually the time where you have more of that bandwidth that we can do some of that deeper work, so that you know what to do when things get difficult again right so that the underpinning and the foundation under all of that is shifted enough that it changes the cycle. So we're not just working on the acute when things are like oh, everything's on fire. You put my house out.

Speaker 1: 16:17

Let's fireproof the house. Let's do some work on that. That's proactive for when it gets difficult again. So I would say find a therapist when you have the emotional bandwidth to do so right ideal, not always the case if you're in crisis but ideal, but ideal, if you're like.

Speaker 2: 16:34

What do I do this summer?

Speaker 1: 16:35

I have some extra time, maybe find a therapist but then also right, if you go to therapy and things get better, that is not a sign that you need to leave it. It's a sign that there's there's probably more work that could be done and some with my clients.

Speaker 2: 16:51

I'm sure you see it with yours. It's when things are calm. You, you have the bandwidth to address the hard things and you can actually move through the hard things. Right, they become less hard.

Speaker 1: 17:06

They won't always be hard, they won't always be such a big gaping wound, right it if you approach it at a time when you have emotional bandwidth and I would say also right like there is a little bit of a pavlovian response, right like you're not, you're not relating going to therapy with it being brutal, right? So if you, if you have the bandwidth, I'm gonna be a wreck.

Speaker 2: 17:31

Yeah, exactly, I gotta. I can't go to forget that. Yeah, I'm out.

Speaker 1: 17:34

No, so if you find some ease from therapy and then stay at it right, you can also create a relationship where you're making movement and it it's not as taxing to make that movement. It's not as difficult to make that movement. You might, you might. Sometimes therapy is fun, Sometimes it's funny.

Speaker 2: 17:52

Yes, I laugh a lot with my clients.

Speaker 1: 17:55

Yeah, and and you also create a relationship with your therapist where you're happy to see them, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 18:04

Earlier you said Pavlovian, yes. So I want to ask a little bit about to the listener who's never been to therapy and who thinks maybe we sit there and we open a book and we read definitions and we are very theory based, like it's like academia, yeah, what do you say to that?

Speaker 1: 18:27

I would say right, like you and I are both very relational therapists yes the relationship lays the ground for healing. Yes, so sometimes I do some psycho education where I talk about what your nervous system doing, what your body's doing because, I do somatic therapy right so we talk about how to process through that, but all of that, if it just stays, there are just ideas, completely right, ideas in themselves, not particularly healing.

Speaker 1: 18:56

Yes, yes and so then we have to do the work, we have to create the relationship, we have to make the body movement, we have to do the noticing, the processing, to get through that. So I would say say it's not completely out of possibility that if you came to see me per se, I would do a bit of psychoeducation. You might learn some definitions, but that's not where it stays, and that's not the important part.

Speaker 1: 19:22

We can call it whatever you want. Really, the reason that I offer that is because there's some confidence building and understanding what is happening when you notice this, what is happening in your brain, what's happening in your body.

Speaker 2: 19:38

What is the cycle? Sometimes I equate it to asking ChatGPT to create an image of a pizza, like, okay, you're looking at a picture of a pizza. Great, that is not the same experience as making a pizza from scratch. That's going to be a very different. It's still a pizza, but one experience you embody and one is kind of flat and one dimensional.

Speaker 1: 20:08

Well, even that, like right one, one dimensional.

Speaker 2: 20:09

Well, even that, like right one's nourishing yes and one's theoretical right like this is a pizza, this is a therapist. It's not like right, yeah, it's not going to give you the same gifts. I don't think. Okay, what are you thinking about this conversation so far? I I think it's great, what's coming up for you?

Speaker 1: 20:32

I'm realizing how much I enjoy being in relation with you.

Speaker 2: 20:38

Yes, me too. It's so. Healing Me too. Ooh, earlier you said some people like they think of healing as an end game. Another way sometimes people phrase it is that I'll be fixed.

Speaker 1: 20:52

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:54

And I think most therapists inherently would back away from the word fix. I don't know a therapist who thinks that they fix anybody or that anybody needs to be fixed. Right. I think most therapists think people need to be understood.

Speaker 1: 21:12

Right.

Speaker 2: 21:12

Supported, witnessed.

Speaker 1: 21:16

Right, that's it. Yeah, right Given tools.

Speaker 2: 21:22

Yes, yes. So if you're thinking listener, if you're thinking, oh, I'm going to go in there and somebody's going to have a judgment about what I've done or what I've been through and they're going to try to fix me like a car, that's not the vibe. No, no.

Speaker 1: 21:44

It's. You know, I think again right when we think about traditional psychoanalysts. Like, very formal, you lay down on a couch, someone has a little notebook. They're making notes. Three years later you get the therapist's impression that sounds like torture.

Speaker 2: 22:01

That's not it, but people do that still.

Speaker 1: 22:05

A small sect of people still do that In the Northeast. Yeah, that is not what we offer.

Speaker 2: 22:14

I want to say okay. So let's say a client walks in to see you. What's a behind the scenes look? So they walk in. Is there a waiting room?

Speaker 1: 22:25

Yeah, yeah, we have a waiting room. Well, they have to have a door code.

Speaker 2: 22:29

Okay.

Speaker 1: 22:30

And then they enter our waiting room. So it's very secure. You're only seeing people who have already had consults with someone in our practice. Right so we see a lot of individuals who are fleeing abuse Right Like high trauma situation, so it's very safe. We also see a lot of neurodivergent folks Autistic, ADHD, people with sensory processing issues so there's no overhead lighting in our office. All lamps very warm a lot of plants.

Speaker 1: 22:58

You're going to hear a lot of sound machines. It sounds like being in the womb or being at the ocean in our office. I'll greet you, I'll take you into my office. My office is very it's like warm kind of 70s. We have like a stone wall and a warm brown leather couch.

Speaker 2: 23:17

Listener Grace looks like Farrah Fawcett a little bit. With her hair she's like got that 70s vibe also.

Speaker 1: 23:23

It's very comfortable, it's very, yeah, it's very warm.

Speaker 2: 23:27

You're not wearing a suit, no, never. You're wearing soft pants, soft pants, you're not wearing a suit, no, never.

Speaker 1: 23:34

You're wearing soft pants. Soft pants, I'm wearing soft, everything elastic. Yeah, yeah, I might. We might take our shoes off and you know, sit, sit on the furniture that way, have a cup of tea together.

Speaker 2: 23:40

It's, it's a, it's a personal experience and for me, for mine, my clients it's different. I have um. I don't have a waiting room. I have lots of bright light, natural light. I have um. I do have lots of soft textures. I don't wear that much elastic. I'm offering coffee or tea or fidgets, but it is. It's like you're in a living room. Yeah, for sure it's a living room experience, like when a client comes to see me. It's warm, it's relational, it's come, let's be together in this comfortable space. I've never had a client completely lie down. So in case you're thinking, this is like lie down on the chaise lounge type situation. Oh, I talked.

Speaker 1: 24:31

Katya the story recently, the first time I went to therapy. That's the only image I had in my mind.

Speaker 2: 24:36

But how old are you?

Speaker 1: 24:38

God bless little 18, 19-year-old Grace who found her own therapist.

Speaker 2: 24:43

Hey, that's amazing.

Speaker 1: 24:44

And then went to therapy and lied down on the couch and the therapist never told me I didn't have to do that. So every week I would just come in and lie down and talk oh, that's so sweet.

Speaker 2: 24:56

I love that image. That is so sweet you can lie down, if you want to. You can lie down if you want to. Yeah, but just letting you know.

Speaker 1: 25:03

Not expected?

Speaker 2: 25:04

Definitely not expected. How do you know if therapy is working? Yeah, I would say, you know. How do you know if therapy is working?

Speaker 1: 25:11

yeah, I would say you know how do you feel like? Are things getting a bit easier is? It feeling more spacious. Is there more room? Right? And if not, what is happening? Right, because there are some, some forms of therapy where things are difficult for a while before they get lighter. Right, if you're doing EMDR?

Speaker 2: 25:32

for example, what is EMDR?

Speaker 1: 25:34

EMDR is eye movement desensitization, reprocessing. I always get the R in the D switched. It's all good.

Speaker 2: 25:48

It's helpful listener. That's what we want to tell you um, it's helpful, listener.

Speaker 1: 25:55

That's what we want to tell you. Uh, it's a form of trauma processing that changes the way your brain stores traumatic memory, so that when you remember it, you're not re-experiencing yes but in order to process it in this way, you do have to go through the memory, and so sometimes interacting with memory in that way. After session, you feel pretty numb. And so I would say, right, like there are some asterisks too, you should feel better If you're in the middle of processing something pretty difficult there might be a period where things get harder before they get easier.

Speaker 2: 26:27

Yes, yes, I love the. I really think it's so important to let the client know that when things have been stagnant, like just shoved in there for a long time, and then you're talking about it and you're processing it and you're gonna feel, you may feel tired, you may feel light-headed, you may feel really tender yeah, you may just want a blanket and a pizza maybe that's just me and a movie that makes you cry some episodes of new girl golden girls yeah, that's my go-to.

Speaker 2: 27:13

So as you're processing listener, it's normal to feel like things are unsettled yeah, yeah, I mean you're.

Speaker 1: 27:26

You have to kind of dust the cobwebs off first and unearth this thing and then find a new place for it. That's, it's hard work.

Speaker 2: 27:35

Oh, find a new place for it. Ok, grace, let's wrap up, ok. Ok For anyone who's listening, who wants to find your explore working with you, where can they go?

Speaker 1: 27:46

Yeah, so I'm a part of Moving Parts Psychotherapy. We're located in South Central Austin. I do in-person sessions there and offer telehealth across the state of Texas. You can find me at movingpartspsychotherapycom or shoot me an email at grace at movingpartspsychotherapycom.

Speaker 2: 28:05

And what are your specialties again?

Speaker 1: 28:07

Yeah, my specialties are IFS or internal family systems therapy, sex therapy, ketamine therapy, and then I specialize in supporting neurodivergent individuals, queer folks, people in relationships. Honestly, I do a lot, so I'm here.

Speaker 2: 28:24

And for anyone who's listening, who is afraid to try therapy, what's something you want to leave them with?

Speaker 1: 28:32

afraid to try therapy. What's something you want to leave them with? Yeah, I would say that it's an amazing resource to have someone on your side who genuinely is cheering for you to achieve whatever it is that you've set out to achieve right, and so it's not scary. Give it a try.

Speaker 2: 28:48

Thank you, Grace. If this conversation clarified something for you or helped you feel a little more seen, please share it with someone you care about. You can follow along for more grounded, soulful conversations and know that this space is here to support you. Thanks for being with us today.