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CZ and Friends
CZ & Friends is a podcast about what it takes to lead and evolve legal in an era of exponential change. Hosted by Cecilia Ziniti, former General Counsel turned founder and CEO of GC AI, each episode features candid conversations with legal and business leaders who are building for scale, taking bold bets on technology, and leading with humanity. Whether you're a GC, operator, or in-house counsel, this podcast is your front-row seat to the future of legal.
CZ and Friends
From One Lawyer to Fortune 500: Maury Bricks & Michele Murray of GPM Investments on Building Trust and AI-Ready Legal
What does it take to scale from a department of one to a 30-person legal team inside a Fortune 500 company?
General Counsel Maury Bricks and Associate General Counsel Michele Murray of ARKO Corp. / GPM Investments join Cecilia for a conversation on leadership, trust, and how to stay human through 26 acquisitions and non-stop growth.
Maury shares how he built the legal backbone of one of America’s largest convenience store networks, while Michele recounts the unforgettable story of processing 1,300 licenses in six weeks - and how that trial by fire prepared her to lead in the AI era. Together, they reveal how their team went from blocking AI to recommending it, and how small moments (like learning to send certified mail) shape lasting careers.
This is a story of scaling, courage, and humor. Proof that the best legal teams grow one thoughtful hire, one honest conversation, and one bold decision at a time.
Follow Maury and Michele:
@Maury Bricks on LinkedIn
@Michele Murray on LinkedIn
Books, Authors & Thinkers Mentioned:
– Leaders Eat Last by Simon Sinek
– How Google Works — Eric Schmidt & Jonathan Rosenberg
– First principles approach to leadership and process
Other References:
– ARCO / GPM Investments (26 acquisitions, Fortune 500 growth)
– Licensing, compliance, and risk management for multi-state operations
– AI adoption journey at ARCO (from pilot to productivity)
– Use of GC AI “Easy Prompt” for privacy, diligence, and document review
– The “Certified Mail” story and the value of learning by doing
– Integrating acquired legal teams and fostering trust across mergers
Follow us on all social platforms to get each new episode when it drops.
@Cecilia Ziniti on LinkedIn
@CeciliaZin on Twitter/X
@GC AI on LinkedIn
gc.ai website
Was able to get 1300 in six weeks, including calling a fire marshal's number because the town didn't have a phone number or a city hall. And it was the deceased mayor's cell phone number that this woman answered and said, Where'd you get this number? And I had to say, Well, I'm trying to make sure you get paid sales tax. Welcome back to CZ and Friends. I'm your host, Cecilia Ziniti. This is the podcast where we talk with legal leaders, technologists, and operators shaping how modern companies work and scale. Today I get to talk with two leaders of a fast-growing public company driving the legal side and beyond. Maury Bricks is the general counsel of Arko Corp and GPM Investments, and he's helped guide the business through 26, yes, you heard that right, acquisitions and a journey to being a Fortune 500 company. He started as a department of one. Today he leads a team of more than 30 across legal risk and compliance at Arko Corp, which is the sixth largest uh convenience store provider in America with stores all over the US. Alongside him today, we're lucky enough to talk with Michele Murray, who's associate general counsel at Arko, and has become a key partner in the department's growth and a trusted leader across real estate and corporate work. Both have lived the pressure of scaling fast, they've navigated cultural change, shifting expectations, incorporating 26 companies at the day the reality of AI. Michele went from blocking AI tools and being product counsel around thinking about how the company uses it, to now recommending them at CLO events, where I actually met Michele. And she's one of my favorite adoption stories. Um, also had the opportunity to meet Maury at a dinner with uh at the Economist Summit this spring, and immediately knew that the pair of them were a force and it would be great to have them on the podcast. This is a conversation about what it takes to build something at last, about going through each individual acquisition, one foot in front of the other, and really about leadership, partnership, and what it means to shape a team over time and become a part of a company that has become at this point iconic. So very excited to have you. Maury and Michele, welcome to the show. Thank you for having us. Awesome. All right, so Maury, I'd like to start with you. So you were a legal department of one. Um a lot of our of our users and customers and folks in the CZ & Friends Network are that kind of scrappy legal team where either they're venture-backed or you're kind of living the dream of growth. You started off one person, one laptop, fast growing business. When you look at those back at those days, did you know that it was gonna be something huge? And and just paint a picture uh of starting off as a department of one in what is now a Fortune 500 company.
Maury Bricks:Um, sure. I don't think I knew it was gonna be huge. Certainly, whoever was working on budgeting at the time didn't know it was be a larger department. We could we kind of grew by by needs, by acquisition. When I brought on Michele, I went to our CEO. Michele was our second higher and legal, and I said, and he's like, Are you sure you need someone else? And I said, Well, we have the work for three lawyers. I'm doing two and one's not getting done at all. So what do you think? And we brought her in and I made her do two and a half, and then I only had to do half. So it worked out really well for me. But, you know, we we've grown over time. A lot of it's by picking up other departments and specific people from other departments and really trying to improve upon the company. One of our first growth areas was licensing. And, you know, when you're not in acquisition mode, licensing, which by the way, for convenience stores, there can be 10, 15 licenses at a store, obviously alcohol, tobacco, business licenses, but egg handling licenses, lottery licenses, to sell milk, it's a bit crazy. Sometimes you gotta fill out forms and triplicate on carbon paper and get notaries. It's very crazy for a $15 bill. But accounting used to just like process it like any accounts payable. And once we started doing acquisitions, we realized we needed an actual department who could confirm what were the right subsidiaries on the license, were we meeting all the requirements? Were we not paying for old licenses that didn't exist? And grew risk in other departments or sub-departments the same way, really, as the business grew.
Cecilia Ziniti:Wow. So from a legal standpoint, obviously the right to operate and kind of like unlocking the business in the in that way. Like each acquisition, like like so so you've got these licenses, this regulatory thing where you're, you know, you're figuring out if you have the right to handle eggs or the right to sell tobacco, whatever it is. When you acquire a company, where do you even start?
Maury Bricks:From the beginning. We start with the numbers, first of all, which I don't get that involved in, but you know, if the numbers don't play out, we don't do it at all. Then it's really learning the business where they are, researching. We ask them what licenses they have, then we do our own research to find out what licenses they should have. Are they operating their business the right way? Then it gets panic time where we're trying to close and do everything we need to do. Fortunately, Michele can put on various different accents, which is very helpful. When you need to get a license in South Carolina and a license in Georgia, you got to put on a southern accent and be very polite. I cannot do that. So, you know, things I know I can't do. It's really digging in and knowing the business, right? Anytime you're in-house, you have to know your business, your business partner. And that way you can ask the questions that need to be asked that make sense. And really everything you do is not theoretical like an outside form. It's always a risk calculus. Let's look at what we have and what we want to do about it or not do about it. Um, I feel like Michele should be asked some questions.
Cecilia Ziniti:Yeah, no, no. I'm literally like, I was just gonna say, so Maury, Maury talked about the human element of, you know, he's using the accent example, but he also talked about this kind of like mountain of work. So when you joined, first of all, how did Maury convince you to join? And then when you joined, did you have the equivalent sort of panic moment of like, oh my word, we're operating, you know, we've got thousands of employees, many locations. Like, like, what is in your headspace?
Michele Murray:He actually was at a point in my career, I guess I was, I'd been out of law school seven years. I was at a technology startup, you know, the place where they have like smart pop and like LaCroix Water, and it's like this big fancy, you know, on a nice floor. And and I was at a crossroads of, you know, what what do I want to do next? Like, where is this going? And the opportunity to apply for this particular job came about. I guess should I tell her how I even landed on your desk, Maury?
Maury Bricks:Yeah. I mean, look.
Michele Murray:Okay, so it's important.
Maury Bricks:Hold on, hold on. Let me just like it's an important story for an in-house job because I went in-house with a client. Like, you can look at every single ad on LinkedIn or Monster. It's not gonna get you a job in-house unless you're really lucky. Like, it's all about networks and contacts and knowing someone. That that's just for people to know.
Michele Murray:Yeah, it it definitely is. And so I um I was living in Atlanta and I actually I got the pleasure of going to law school in 2007 to 2010 when all of the summer jobs, it was, you know, the a great time to be in law school and to be trying to work. And so one of the jobs I took over the summer, I was helping a small law firm. Maury's mother and brother are both lawyers. And so you're just doing anything you can on top of your externships, things of that nature, just to gain legal experience. And so I assisted them, learned a ton, actually thought I wanted to go into chapter 11 bankruptcy, but then people were too poor to even file for chapter 11 2010. So that industry in and of itself was at a stand, you know, standstill and went into real estate litigation, but maintained my relationship with Maury's mom. You know, we would have dinner once a year or every so often. And I'd gone to lunch with her, literally had just updated my resume for a similar, same exact title at another company. And he was in Richmond and my, you know, his mom just said, Would you ever consider moving to Richmond? And I said, Oh, no, I don't, I don't think so. And then I got home that night and I was like, wait, I was like, why wouldn't I consider moving to Richmond? I was like, Well, I'll just send my resume, you know. So I just sent it on. And then that was probably two months before we ended up starting to talk. And that was when, of course, people will know, like once you start looking, things just kind of appear. And it, it's anyone who says that's not true, it's just, you know, when you're ready to make a next step, the universe kind of finds a way to put you somewhere where you're meant to go. And so I actually met, you know, telephonically with all of the key players that work within our company and flew into Richmond, had never been here, but he said, you know, you need to come and let us know if you want it. And so I'd only and never been to Richmond, flew up here, interviewed, and I was like, okay, I like it. And so I like found an apartment that day and was like, okay, I guess I'm moving to Richmonds. It was um, some would say a rash decision, but it also was the right decision. And I didn't have a background, I did not have a background in MA. So that is the other piece to tell other attorneys. There are skill sets, you know, in the first couple of deals, I had to find a way to make myself valuable where, you know, I wasn't going to be jumping in with all of the people that live in the MA world and all of the business leaders, but I was able to find things that, hey, I can get this done or I can help figure out what this is. And one of those involved a large acquisition where I should have never said I knew how to possibly help get licenses, but was able to get 1300 in six weeks, including calling a fire marshal's number because the town didn't have a phone number or a city hall. And it was the deceased town, the deceased mayor's cell phone number that this woman answered and said, Where'd you get this number? And I had to say, Well, I'm trying to make sure you get paid paid sales tax. So I mean, this is like incredible. What a story.
Cecilia Ziniti:Yeah. So that's so 1,300 licenses in eight weeks. So and this is before AI. So literally, what did you do? So, like you walk in the room and they're like, All right, we're acquiring this uh chain of convenience stores. Oh, yeah.
Michele Murray:Well, so what it is, so we have a director of licensing who's a machine. I mean, she is, you know, MVP, her organization. It's it's insane. And so she was able to go in. We just, you know, and it's similar to when you're doing diligence and other stuff, but you're in a spreadsheet, you're in a file, and she was like, okay, these are what I need help with. We're we've got to do X, Y, and Z. And it was just very pragmatic. But it also was being able to just get on the phone and say to these people, will you please tell me what I need to do? Like, in some sense, you know, and these were southern states, so it didn't hurt that my southern accent could pick up a notch, but really relying on these other people. But what it did help in those early phases was that's what helped me learn the business. You know, as much as Maury could sit me down and say, here's here's our business model, this is what we do. But being able to go in, learn our different entities, learn all of because our org chart's insane. Like if you looked at it, it's like I mean, it's consolidated some now, but it's just it was um a trial by fire, but it was also an instance where our CEO came into my office and said, Will you please help? So clearly, I'm not gonna be the one doing all of the major, you know, turning of the papers, but it was something I was able to do to help. Um, and that was that was a good feeling to be able to participate in the first big one.
Cecilia Ziniti:I love it. So the two of you, just even from the last five minutes, seem to have very different strengths. Um, and and you know, I'm I'm gonna assume, as is the case with uh basically everybody, I know this. You're good lawyers, you can turn that many licenses, you can run that many acquisitions, you can support a public company. So it seems like there's an element here of like trust in how the two of you work together. So I'd love Maury for you to give that perspective, including of like, was it like you're thinking about that? I'm building a team. Obviously, it's grown over time, but like, what did you see in Michele at the time? And then how have you encouraged that building of trust, assuming that that you all have it amongst her and all your team?
Maury Bricks:Well, I have to trust everyone. I don't have time to check up on what they're doing. So once I send out an email, I assume it's handled. Look, I had put together, I was looking for somebody, I'd put together a job description. Michele had zero of the requirements of what I thought I wanted on there, but I could tell she was smart and eager and could learn the business. And it's really the same with almost everyone we've hired who we brought in people from finance and marketing and HR who were smart people and either being underutilized or wanted a growth and really were eager to strive and willing to learn and capable of learning. And once I know that and they're given some training, then there's really no reason not to trust them and let them do it. We, you know, each person only has time to do what they have time for. And you've got to trust your people to know what they're good at and to send things off. And the company is very good at recognizing that. I've been at other conferences where I've talked to people and they said, I'm the general counsel, people always want my voice, whatever. I said, I copy everyone else. I specifically direct them to Michele and some of our other people and say they're handling it. And sometimes I'm very clear. I'm like, I have no clue. Michele's handling that. You can ask me the question, but I don't know. I'm gonna have to go to them. They're the expert, they're the subject matter expert. We have someone else in our department, you know, when it comes to what our insurance requirements are and what we require vendors, etc. I don't put that in a contract without checking from him because he he maintains the master. He knows what our current standards are. That's his responsibility. So got gotta trust people on that.
Cecilia Ziniti:Michele, how does it feel on on the other side? Do you what have you done to to to be trustworthy and how how does it affect how the the team dynamics?
Michele Murray:Well, I think it's part of it's caring, caring about your work product, you know, caring if you let someone else down, bring about, you know, just that general motivation of, you know, I want to do my best because that's, you know, that's intrinsically how how I operate as a person. But also, um, Maury is not a micromanager. So it like in the beginning, it took a while for him to learn. First, it took me a little bit to just kind of get my like feet on the ground and be like, okay, this is a big company, you know, to get everything. But once we were there, he doesn't micromanage. He's also really good about giving credit where, you know, if someone else does something, he has no problem saying, you know, this person found that. And we have some awesome attorneys on our team that equally, you know, no one's trying, he's not trying to hold any of us back from being able to be seen as an expert in an area. So some of that, you know, I have friends at different companies and even at a law firm where someone's, you know, they're not giving praise for what their people are doing. And they're they're able to engage people in conversations that would usually only involve a certain level of people. So that's one thing. And I think the other piece of it is um, I think getting getting your work done. I mean, just getting your work done and also being able to say, I don't know. Like part of that's another big thing where it's saying, you know, I don't know the answer to this. Now, I don't do it as much in the current times because, you know, Maury's not as involved in the day-to-day of the operational piece with the public component of the company. But and I'm sure probably too many times. But if I wasn't sure, if not that if I wasn't sure, but if I knew I needed someone else to weigh in on something, I had no problem asking for his input. Um, that was, I think that's the other piece. He knows I'm gonna go to him if I'm a little, you know, this could be a problem, or what would you do in this situation? I love that.
Cecilia Ziniti:So both of you talked about kind of a slight panic moment at the, you know, 1300 licenses in six weeks, or you know, the kind of like walking in and seeing the volume. Let's talk about another fun moment. So in the prep, we talked about a certified mail incident. So, first of all, that's kind of funny uh that we're in 2025 on an AI show talking about certified mail. But secondly, tell us the story. I think we'll we'll we'll get some nuggets out of it, Michele.
Michele Murray:So I didn't tell anyone the story for a while, but when I first started working for the firm where Maury's um mom and brother, and there were a few other solo practitioners, it was a group of about six attorneys, and I was 21 years old. Like I went to law school because I thought it was easier than getting a job. The joke was on me. I happen to really enjoy it now. But I'm 21 years old, you know, I'm going there and they just said, Michele, can you run this? This needs to be sent certified. And I'm sitting there and I'm I call my mom from the bathroom. And my parents have a business, and I said, Mom, I don't know how to send something certified. So my mom starts like reening me out while I'm in the bathroom. She's like, I have failed you as a parent. How do you not know how to send something certified? Go to that post office and you sit there and tell the woman or the man that you don't know how to do this and ask them to show you. And I was so nervous. So I later told, I mean, it was several years later that I told his mom about that. And she still to this day gets a pretty good kick out of it. So that that happened. But Mori had a similar story.
Cecilia Ziniti:I love it. I love it. No, it it's also like a like a we had another guest on the podcast, Rebecca Feich, and she's got a blog and she talked about when she first was a baby litigator. Somebody said, you know, you need to find, you know, create a shell of the answer. Or it was, it wasn't an answer, it was a, no, it was it, it was a, it was uh the compliance. Somebody said, draft the compliance. And she's like, what does that even mean? And she's doing a corporate project and it was the compliance certificate. And draft the compliance with no context means nothing. And she's like, of course she googles it. So that's the modern equivalent of like, you know, calling your mom. But anyways, that's amazing. So, all right, so that happened. So I guess the lesson there is like figure it out.
Michele Murray:Is that is that and not to be also everyone, and this is through these acquisitions and through all of these departments, everyone is good at their job and knows something you don't know. So just because of where we sit, it doesn't mean there are things that so many employees at every level could do that I don't know how to do. And so I think having that, especially if you go in-house, having the mentality that there's something to learn from everyone. Because sometimes when you're in a law firm and in other situations, it's not that it's an elevated feeling, but it is, you know, your peer group is different. And I think one of the best parts about being in-house is getting to recognize everyone has a different skill set and seeing internal growth, helping coach people internally. Um, but it was me having to go and basically like say to this the postal worker and just say, I don't know how to do this. And my mom said I it's a joke, I don't. And like I can't ask my boss because I'll get back. And so now if someone asked me this, I love the happy ending.
Cecilia Ziniti:I'm like, you're running, you're basically running the place. You're like this high-level lawyer, and it's literally like this was your moment. So early career or career listeners, like that this is this is such an inspiration.
Michele Murray:You can go up from there. Just know how to send a certified mail.
Cecilia Ziniti:I love it. I love it. Maury, yours apparently involves a missing bearer bond. So I I I'll admit I'm gonna cry cry ignorant. I do not know what a bearer bond is. So first tell me and then tell me the story.
Maury Bricks:Uh so a bearer bond is a piece of paper worth money. And literally, if you're the bearer, you own it. If you hold it, it's yours. And if you're not holding it and you should have been holding it, you got a problem. So I'm I'm purposely not showing my desk, and Michele made me clear off enough of my desk that it wouldn't be shown on the camera. But I tend not to keep things as organized as I should, even after I didn't learn my lesson when I was a summer associate. Um but for whatever reason, I had gone into the safe, I had a bearer bond. I don't know, maybe I had to draft a compliance certificate based on it or something. Who knows? And then at some point someone asked for it back, and it took me quite a long time and frantically trying to figure out where this thing was that was worth, I don't remember at this point, but definitely millions of dollars if you had it. And if you didn't, it was worth zero. It's basically like cash.
Cecilia Ziniti:How long did it take you to find it?
Maury Bricks:I mean, I know how to block things out of my memory, so we'll just say 10 seconds, but you know, perhaps longer than that, maybe maybe a few hours.
Cecilia Ziniti:I love it. Well, it's it's kind of like that that meme that's like it's always in the last place you look. It's like Well, if you found it and kept looking, like what's the problem? So I love that story. All right. So anything in terms of like, you know, Michele said a lot about leadership that I want to pull through. She talked about curiosity, about learning, about, you know, kind of um bringing the organization with you. How have you thought about that as Arco has grown and GPM has grown? So it looks like, again, 26 acquisitions and more, you've been there, what, 10 years?
Maury Bricks:13 years, actually.
Cecilia Ziniti:13 years. So that is a pace of at least two a year. So essentially at any one time, are you always working on an acquisition?
Maury Bricks:We are frequently looking. Yes. We're always looking at things, whether we're working on an active one or what stage we're in, depends. But we're always working on something, even if it's not an acquisition, right? People like to talk about MA, it's the sexy thing, whatever, but there's financing, there's running the business, construction of sites, dealing with HR issues, you know, different things that that you have on a daily basis. And it's always busy in-house, no matter what. So yeah, and now I forgot your question because I have no short-term memory. Tell people if if you didn't see me in a meeting with a legal pad, then I wasn't at the meeting.
Cecilia Ziniti:If you didn't see me in the city, I love that. I love the knowledge management aspect in AI. That might be a good transition point to AI. But no, I I was just curious, like, so like when you maintain that kind of pace, it almost feels like in the short-term memory thing, you joke, but it almost feels like you kind of have to put that one foot in front of the other. Like, is it just like so when you look back on the the 13 years, any particular moments stand out that you're most proud of? Obviously, hiring Michele. Talked about that.
Maury Bricks:Hiring anything Michele, my team, being able to get the audio and video working for this podcast. I mean, those are definitely proud moments. Um, we've done so many what other people would consider once-in-a-lifetime transactions. It's like too many at this point. It's really about growing the team and the people we brought in to the team and finding what works for each person where they they can grow. I mean, we took a person who used to be an admin and put her in compliance. And I don't even think she has a college degree, but we got her to do a certification class on anti-money laundering. And she was a little nervous to have to do that, having not been in school for, I don't know, what, 40 years, Michele? At that point. But she was thrilled after it happened and got this certification and really looking at people and saying, what can you do? And that makes them happy, and then they want to work harder. And that's how we grow the business. Deals are always going to come, but people you got to find.
Michele Murray:And we did. So out of all those acquisitions, I will say one of our larger acquisitions when we expanded on the wholesale side of our business. So we were able to acquire a company that had a very not large, but compared to ours, large legal department. And they, it's the first deal we did with lawyers because everyone else, it was like smaller. So we kept getting all these tours, and that just means more work, less lawyers, you know, finally. So everyone was really excited, especially in the pandemic. So we're doing this deal. And so I have a counterpart on the other side of the business. And her her um former boss, she now reports up to Maury, but also getting to have best practices come in from other legal teams as we've grown. So that was the biggest set of at first, we were just like, this is a head count. Yes, there's more lawyers, but then being able, you know, we meet annually or semi-annually, but we were able to sit and have discussions. And so even if people are involved in different sides of the business, being able to say, okay, what are the best practices? And so Maury's been able to push for that to allow us to grow from what works within other companies. Different companies have different skill sets with processes.
Cecilia Ziniti:So I love that. So when um when that acquisition went through, and then like a like a year later, like tell us about the actual integration process. So you see, okay, they're doing these processes better or differently. You do your off-site. Any wisdom to share for others who may be in a similar situation, both on integration and on up-leveling the legal department?
Michele Murray:I think with with our with that acquisition, it was one thing that we noticed from the beginning, the personalities, like it was a really good fit. So this is it's one thing, if that hadn't been the case, but we were able to see, okay, both sides were eager to to integrate. So I think it was developing, you know, Maury had met more with their um head of legal. And so it was from those two coming down on the supporting attorneys, where that set the tone for the attitude of how that that was gonna work. And then um it was during the pandemic, we couldn't do a lot of, I mean, there weren't team building exercises and things of that nature. But um, Mauri, I don't know, you chime in on that.
Maury Bricks:Well, I think a lot of it was also respecting and recognizing the strengths of the people from the acquisition, right? A lot of times you do an acquisition and you're like, we're the best, we're the biggest. And um, you know, that added our wholesale division. We had a small wholesale division, but we were focused mainly on retail. They were more on wholesale. And we spent a lot of time, we knew they were the experts in that. We took our wholesale forms, we took their wholesale forms, we created the best of, taking from both with them as the leaders, then went out to outside council, the regulatory council just to vet them. But really, kind of taking advantage of you had a two knowledge bases and seeing what was the best, right? And, you know, we update forms and things all the time based on our experience they had as well. It's always interesting. We deal with some other large companies, and you're like, you know, you edit their form and they're like, we don't take any changes. And I'm like, but you misspelled your name. And they're like, Well, we have an every two-year cycle where we can fix that. We we don't play that game. Like, we're constantly learning things and constantly updating if it makes sense because there was litigation and something happened, or we read about a case, or we entered, well, now because anytime you enter a new state, like HR policies on leave have to be updated. Michele's got to research new privacy policies. Like, dynamic is constantly changing, and you have to be open to that and take everyone's wisdom and experience in doing that. I mean, even when I went through because I like UCC and Article IX, security interests, you know, educating people on why we file these financing statements and what it means and what happens with the typo. It's because it's fun for me and educational for them.
Cecilia Ziniti:Love that. So you mentioned partnering with outside counsel. What's your what's your wisdom on that? Considering obviously you're doing a very high volume of deals, you're operating in a bunch of states. I'm looking at your your investor, you know, PowerPoints, and you've got, you know, some of your acquisitions are more than, you know, 100 locations. So how do you how do you staff and then how do you view your partnership with obviously you came from a client? I'm sorry, GPM was a client, you came here, so obviously it was a deep partnership. Tell us about that.
Maury Bricks:We actually try to use outside counsel on a minimal basis, and we try to do as much in-house as possible. We well, we're on salary, so there's no marginal cost no matter how hard we're working. And we know our business and we know what needs to be done. And we use outside counsel as specialists if it's an HSR filing privacy council, although Michele has moved more to using the AI and eliminating privacy counsel char when you need someone, you know, in a local area to respond to a complaint, although we still do that mainly in-house, but we'll just a lot of times just tap people for their specialists in a very limited basis. We don't have people doing the general work because we can do that in inside. Um, but really trying to have lawyers who've worked with us on a regular basis so they know our business almost as close as we do.
Michele Murray:Michele, anything to add on that point? I also think we we don't just work with one outside law firm. Um, I have my environmental, I have different, you know, every we have specialists in different areas. And so it's, you know, the relationship where we've worked with them long enough where if I send something over, you know, I know they're gonna get back to me at their earliest convenience. You know, just having worked over time, like with IP council or someone else, you know, they don't hear from me all the time. Some know if they hear from me and it's something that's bad. Like there are instances where it's gonna turn into a lot more work, hopefully not. But just having our network, but not just putting it all in the hands of one firm. We we spread it out, we maintain that list. And there'll be times, you know, we're in some small, small communities. I mean, some of these places where if I have to have someone attend, I'm like, do you have a baby lawyer that wants to have um, you know, just to attend like a hearing where it's not a substantive, you know, but being able to um have a network because these firms, a lot of a lot of these places where gas stations are, you know, they're they're not major cities. So it's not where you can just have one of the top firms handle all of your work. It really does require having a lot of pillars in the fire. So if you need help on something in quickly, um, because usually we don't get a lot of notice before we need help.
Cecilia Ziniti:Interesting. Um, so Maury mentioned that you started using AI more. So of course, you know, lucky to work with with you all at GC AI, but just curious that journey. So you're responsible for privacy at the company, Michele. And um, I have from the prep that initially you're like, all right, no AI, let's let's see what's going on. Put us in that moment and then and then you're thinking then. Um, and then we can talk about the evolution.
Michele Murray:So at that point, I was more concerned, you know, well, with this was where I started to get nervous with AI in general. My first taste of it was looking at like bioethics, like if there were cameras and it was manipulating people's, you know, if AI was going to create these formulas based on surveillance footage and, you know, from an ethical standpoint, I was more afraid at that level, not thinking about what can this do day to day. And it's right before that conference, I guess it was the end of July. And um, going into it, and I remember you did your presentation and I was sitting there and you did one of the prompts, and I was like, what, what? And so then I was sitting there and then you did more of the prompt, and I was like, wait a minute. I was like, okay, and I was joking around with Elizabeth. I never, you know what those things you don't always want to sit with people, like you're kind of tired, and like you sit down and have a repeat and I like dinner and booked it, and there was like one seat next to you, and it was like by a pole, and I like made some guy move because I was like, I need to know more about this software. I mean, I like literally like stumbled next to you. I was like, okay. Um, and then at that point, because I was answering all the questions, like, we really don't use it. I had just gotten a co-pilot license, if that makes sense. Like we were really at the beginning of it, and then going through it, um, and hearing in those roundtables with other leaders, you know, hearing their use of it. I met one of your clients who was like, um, I guess he was at one of our competitors, but he was like, this thing's awesome. Like, we use it for permitting. So, like in my mind, I'm like, how am I gonna sell this to Maury to sell to our, you know, at that point, I'm like pulling what I'm spending on privacy. I'm like trying to make like a case for it. But we did the demo and I did it first, and I was able to put in things, you know, I one of the things was a trial transcript that was thousands of pages of long, a very complicated, it was an imminent domain proceeding, talking about three different approaches of appraisal. I mean, it was, and the output of it was insane. And I was just sitting there and I was citing the pages of the trial transcript, and I was just sitting there and I was like, okay, so I got Maury and them to try it. And then we, you know, we actually have some of our other, you know, like our corporate secretary uses it's something where we were able to kind of quickly pick up on this is a tool that can save us a lot of time, especially in our environment of having to answer questions quickly. Um and because if it's not, if you don't, some of these things, it's not that you don't want to answer everyone's question, but there is a list of priorities. And something that's literally on fire is a bigger priority to me than if I can sell XYZ at a certain price in this state. I mean, it I hate to say it, but that's a reality. I think this is in-house, like that's in-house life.
Cecilia Ziniti:And I I mean, I guess it's like you know, more made the comment at the beginning of doing three people's jobs and he was doing two of them. That's exactly right. And and you know, I remember very early in my in-house journey, somebody asked me from the law firm something to the effect of like, how do you get everything done? And you know, since we've got litigators here, I'm like, I'm like, it seems facts, not in evidence. Like that is not like you don't is kind of the thing. But you try really hard and you get like the most of the answer. Like, so in that case, I think AI can help you get there. And I guess, same question for you, Maury. Like, you've obviously been an attorney for a long time, you've been at the company a long time. Michele comes in, obviously, you know, we talked about trust, but like this this trial transcript example, like, did did you have that kind of aha moment then? And then like, how's it been since?
Maury Bricks:Uh well, look, I was not using AI proudly, staying away from Chat GPT and everything, saying, you know, not not not needed. I'm smart, I can do my work. And Michele showed me, so I figured it's really, frankly, the easy prompt that you have, which I love. Because without that, I don't know how much it would help me because I wouldn't know what to do. But I love how I type in like, please redline this document, and then press easy prompt. And it's like, did you mean you wanted to know these 40 things? And I'm like, yes, that's exactly what I wanted to do. I wanted to know those 40 things. So the value there, I mean, I used it. My son's a film student, and it was able to like quickly, he's like, I'm in such and such county and nowhere New York, and they say I need a permit, and the sheriff's not letting us film. And I quickly looked at GC AI on a Sunday and it got my answer right away. It told me where the film office was and everything, confirmed you didn't need a permit. They talked to the sheriff. The sheriff said, Uh, you need a permit. He has a gun, he's in charge. So they waited and got this non-existent permit the next week. But, you know, it's you can answer so many questions easily. Um, I don't use it all the time, like I look, and some weeks I don't use it at all, and other times I do, but it's convenient to have um and definitely helpful, certainly to pick apart documents early on. So I I found I like efficiency. I'm an efficiency guy. So it definitely helps with that. Even for just like, you know, preparing an initial draft of a chart or whatever, even if I'm gonna read a full document and take all my notes, then I don't have to type most of it because it's already typed most of it for me. So I've been it's been a very quick and good journey. And I've been recommending tools to people since then.
Cecilia Ziniti:I love that. I love that. Michele, any you uh, I guess you also have kids, I have kids. Um, anything you're thinking about with AI in the next generation, you've each talked about training folks, like I want to work at TPM after what you've said. But how do you think about, you know, now in the AI era? Like, do, you know, if if if junior attorneys use it, are they skipping the part where they're learning how to send certified mail? Or what's the what how do you think about it for the future?
Michele Murray:Well, AI can't send certified mail. So I mean, I guess that like that is one thing that will never go away as far as notice is concerned. So I mean, I think that that is a rite of passage that some may never have to do. But then again, there are instances where, you know, you're trying to get something out, it's a snow day, you know, you never know. But so everyone should learn how to send a certified letter. That's my first advice. But I think for AI, you know, the tool, the easy prompts are great, but once, you know, when you're going in for more detailed questions, it's really only as good as um a user. There has to be a knowledge base for the for the person because you do have to verify the results. I mean, you have to make sure. I I heard today we had a consultant in and an attorney got slapped with a $25,000 sanction for preparing um uh response to a motion with AI and didn't verify the facts. I don't think it was GC AI, but like the point is it wasn't, but it's still your work product. Yeah, no, no.
Cecilia Ziniti:There's up to 300 cases now on that question. And that's actually something that we thought about. It's like, okay, with easy prompt and you have more age-explained situations where, okay, you're checking on the permit thing, you're clicking through on the law, we're allowing you to verify. Like, I do think that's something where our uh the the demands on us as attorneys actually go up, right? So, like the question, or in this case, you got you get asked a pricing question or you get asked something, like the consequence of that is your business is doing a real thing, right? Your son's filming your thing, or you're launching a product, or you're responding to a motion or whatever it is. And you have to bring that in. I think that's exactly right, Michele.
Michele Murray:Yeah, it um it's but also I think being able for, you know, young attorneys, I think it's making sure there is, I don't think there's it replacing having to learn things, you know. Maybe it's just because I'm mean and I think everyone should have to like go through and have someone review their red lines like I did do with Maury, who would sit in a room and draft contracts all day long if he could and be happy. And like, I mean, if like he marks up every, I mean, he marks up his like doctor's offices forms, I'm pretty sure. I love it. I love it.
Maury Bricks:Of course I do.
Michele Murray:So there's a part of, but I'm I think for some of the more nuanced, like legal, you know, indemnification, reps and warranty, I think that there is a level where, you know, a brand new attorney that hasn't, you know, had any interactive experience, I think that it's important, but then it's important for it not to be a crutch, if that makes sense. Yes. Where it's not just to save time, but it it's one thing for it to be able to save a lot of time, but it's another thing for it to be, oh, well, then this must be right because I'm not even really sure. You know what I mean? Yes, exactly.
Cecilia Ziniti:It's like getting you that answer. So we've seen a lot of folks use it where it's benchmarking or in your trial case of like, okay, there were three different ways to look at this imminent domain. How do we expand on those arguments? Using AI to basically expand the universe of what you're looking at and get to that right answer or to to a hardened answer as opposed to not doing the analysis yourself, it sounds like.
Michele Murray:Yeah, or just gathering. I mean, you mentioned imminent domain, but we'll get a notice in, you know, we have 1,300 locations in how many states, Maury? I mean, so you're dealing with all the different DOTs, and you'll get a notice in there's a zoning hearing for such and such project, and being able to just pull it, pull it in and say, please, please review the attached notice and review the project and advise the potential impacts for convenience stores located in this general area. And when I say to you, like, I mean, and it's not always going to be perfect, but enough to make it where I mean, that's that's not even just an attorney being able to do it. I mean, like, you'd have to have people from your facilities. Like it's a whole different thing. So I think young attorneys being able to recognize the use of AI in those instances and for certain things, I think it's great because it saves a lot of time, or it at least gives people enough information to take it to the bigger group and say, you know, here you go, you need to attend the zoning hearing. Love that. And then ask it to summarize it in a business format that shortens the sink that explains the issues clearly. Because sometimes lawyers write too much. And I had one boss once say, you need to just write it in crayon. You know, keep it simple. And so my favorite is when I say, Can you please summarize this in a succinct way for leadership to be able to see the four key points?
Cecilia Ziniti:I love that. The write it in Crayon is so good. I do sometimes I got the similar advice where write an email on your phone specifically because you know it's gonna be read on your phone. Where it's like yeah, and like AI can do that perfectly. I haven't asked it that way, but you're absolutely right of like telling it. Exactly what to do, and that's the wisdom that you know that your business people are going to receive it in that way and tell them I love that. All right. So one more, let's talk, let's do one more question on careers. Maury, obviously, you know, you're a trusted advisor, you've grown this team, you've grown to 1300 locations, became a Fortune 500 company. What's your advice for people who want to want to get to where you are?
Maury Bricks:Uh look is part of it. I mean, look, you you grow with the business and really make yourself valuable. It's uh it's a little hard for me to say that because I came in as the general counsel. I came in with a client that I had been working with for eight years. Before I came in, I helped them buy this business. As outside counsel, I came in during a deal, but it's it's make yourself valuable, speaking, getting known in circles, conferences, et cetera. And unfortunately, like other jobs, sometimes you have to move to another job, right? To take the top seat because there's only one top seat, and there are, you know, there are people below it. And even if it's not a pyramid, it's a few. I can tell you I got called maybe 10 years ago for a position, and they were looking for a deputy general counsel, and they said the general counsel is going to retire, and they want to prep someone for that position. And that was at least 10 years ago. And I know because it's a large company, that general counsel is still there.
Cecilia Ziniti:Oh man, wow, that recruiter. Well, uh, I I we think karma comes around and that recruiter is gonna not be as good good after that.
Maury Bricks:Well, I don't know if that general counsel just fell in love with their job and was gonna retire legit and and didn't, or what? I don't know if they've gone through multiple deputy GCs, but you know, you kind of never know, especially if you're at a great company, right? Like the person at the top of a really great company is probably gonna want to stay there for a long time. Um, but the next levels are hopefully enjoying their job and and very successful at what they're doing and bringing in new things and working with new departments, right? Michele regularly meets with heads of multiple departments and knows what's going on and you know doesn't have to deal with some of what I have to deal with and gets to do sometimes more of the fun stuff, but sometimes more of the stuff I don't want to deal with either.
Cecilia Ziniti:I love that. Awesome. All right, let's go to the lightning round. Couple quick answers. So uh Michele, a book, podcast, or concept that uh changed how you lead or that that that you'd want to share with listeners. So a book, podcast, or concept that has inspired you. Um a book, leaders eat last. How about you, Maury?
Maury Bricks:Uh-huh. You you Yeah, sure. I agree. I'm not, I don't know. I read a lot when I can and I try to take little nuggets from everything. I don't have a particular like this book is on my bookshelf and I refer to it all the time type thing. I mean, if someone wants to pay me for a plug, I can put it in and an edit of this. But otherwise, I'm just gonna go with lots of different things I've read.
Cecilia Ziniti:Awesome. Any uh any belief about leadership that you used to hold and no longer do, either of you can take that one. We're both. Y'all, y'all are y'all are difficult. That it or something that surprised you as the company has grown. Maybe that's an easier way. Either your company or your team has grown.
Michele Murray:I think that the satisfaction and seeing people that are um as our teams grown, seeing people get to take on roles and learn new skill sets and really see their careers change in a significant way, and seeing kind of a a fear, you know, in the beginning where we said, you know, we think you'd be great at this, and just kind of I think getting to see people take on roles and being able to take on things that they didn't think were possible, but that, you know, Maury and I both were like, that person is completely capable of doing this. I love that.
Cecilia Ziniti:And that story of somebody going from a 30-year career to then taking on compliance and taking on AML, which is super complicated. Like I mean, it's incredible, super inspiring. I love that. All right. Anything else um you'd want to leave our listeners with? Um, you built this incredible department, growing company. Um, you know, 26 acquisitions, 1,300 licenses, 1300 locations. Like I've just like this, I can't even with the stats. Enough life-changing deals to to not even be able to remember or or or think of one. Anything you want listeners to take away or to know about about you or your team?
Maury Bricks:I'll just say, okay. You want me to go on?
Cecilia Ziniti:You go ahead.
Maury Bricks:The answer's yes. Look, and I I know people can't always do that, but you know, when you're working virtually, if you don't have to be on camera, I I can't multitask. No one really can. Some people pretend they can. I get distracted by emails, whatever. I do my best focusing, taking a call. If I don't have to be on camera, either on the Peloton or I'm folding laundry, and it's kind of I'm doing something, but it gets me distracted, taking a walk, whatever. Not everyone has that opportunity, but if you can, you know, for me, it just helps me focus and I get something else useful done. Now I've learned to like don't go hard on the Peloton, because then when you have to speak, people are like, We're having a heart attack. Are you okay? And I'm like, no, just walked up the stairs.
Michele Murray:I love that. I love that. How about you, Michele? I think the biggest piece of advice that I would give is don't an opportunity could be sitting in front of you and you don't even realize it instead of just shutting off. I mean, I could have just said when I went home that day, I was like, and I want to move to Richmond. And I'm not saying everyone's in that same boat, but just being open to what is presented to you because, and especially if something doesn't work out that way, it doesn't mean that there's not something that's around there. But it's also, I got clear before I came here. I was like, what are the things that matter to me? And it was like, I want to have a voice that's listened to. I want to have a boss, you know, that has my back. I want to have it be, you know, these are the things and kind of coming up with your own core set of, you know, what really matters to you. That was helpful for me. And I think it's important for people to kind of know what it is that, and it may be some people just want to make a ton of money and they don't, you know, I want to be at the top and it doesn't matter. But I think being a honest with yourself of what you want your career to look like, even at the next step, um, is is important.
Maury Bricks:And that may change over time. I remember an associate I worked with at the law firm. I mean, I was at a firm that kind of was mid-sized firm in the particular city we were in. And you were really, even at a junior level, the main client contact. And he moved for a few years and then he came back, but he moved to a large firm, a different large firm for a few years. And he said, I just want to be a cog in the machine for a few years. I don't want to be the one on call all the time and the only one holding the client. I want to, even if I'm gonna work hard, just kind of do my simple thing, do my piece, and then go home and be with my family. And then I can come back and be strategic again. So, you know, you can take certain things and then move on. But you'll learn hopefully learn from every experience you have.
Michele Murray:And it changes as your life, as your life mean, as your life cycle changes. You know, there's a there's different phases, and I think just being honest with what you are looking for is important. I love that.
Cecilia Ziniti:Thank you both for this conversation. Your collective story is such a clear reminder. You know, you've built leadership over time. You know, we talked about courage, about having your priorities. It's just been such a great conversation. Thank you so much.
Maury Bricks:Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it.
Cecilia Ziniti:Awesome. That was my conversation with Maury Bricks and Michele Murray. Their journey shows how strong teams are built. Um, they talked about trust. We had some great dry humor, consistent choices, one foot in front of the other, and Lido's willing to evolve. You've heard that incredible story about AI and their team, how they've grown, just the career arcs of their team members. Incredible. Follow CZ and Friends wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more about how legal teams are using AI to work smarter and lead with impact, visit gc.ai. We'll see you next time.