Becoming the GC Without Losing Your Life with Joseph Schohl of Inside Counsel Academy

In this episode, Cecilia Ziniti sits down with Joseph Schohl for a candid conversation about what it really takes to succeed in the GC role without burning out. Joseph is a former Fortune 500 healthcare General Counsel (DaVita), Founder of Inside Counsel Academy, Founder of GeneralCounselWest, and host of Becoming the GC Podcast.

Joseph reflects on stepping into the General Counsel seat at just 36 years old, navigating high-stakes M&A and regulatory scrutiny, and learning through experience how judgment, systems, and self-awareness matter more than perfection. He shares why confidence is built by doing hard things early, how leaders can develop better judgment intentionally, and why building a strong team is the only way to make the role sustainable.

Cecilia and Joseph also explore how AI has become a daily productivity partner in his work today, helping him expand judgment, accelerate learning, and reclaim time without sacrificing quality. Along the way, Joseph explains why there is no single path to becoming a GC, what executives actually want from their legal leaders, and how in-house lawyers can grow into leadership roles while protecting their personal lives.

This episode is practical, honest, and deeply human, offering clear guidance for anyone navigating the pressure, responsibility, and opportunity of modern legal leadership.

Follow Joseph:

@Joseph Schohl on LinkedIn

Show notes

Books, Authors & Thinkers Mentioned:
• David Allen, Getting Things Done
• Ben Heineman, The Inside Counsel Revolution
• Stephen Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People
• James Clear, Atomic Habits
• Cal Newport, Deep Work

Other References:
• Inside Counsel Academy (leadership training and coaching for in-house lawyers)
• GeneralCounselWest, PC (outside GC support for healthcare companies)
• Fortune 500 healthcare legal leadership
• FTC review and regulatory approval processes
• Judgment as the core competency of the GC role
• Coaching and mentorship for senior legal leaders
• AI as a daily productivity and judgment-enhancement tool
• GC AI (legal AI platform for research, drafting, and insight)
• “Confidence built through experience, not titles”
• Sustainable leadership and career longevity

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⁠@Cecilia Ziniti⁠ on LinkedIn

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⁠@GC AI⁠ on LinkedIn
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⁠gc.ai⁠ website

Transcript

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Joseph Schohl 0:00

I thought that there was a tried and true path to the GC chair. And then there were a couple of outliers, right? But the tried and true path being the path that I had taken. And what I found in talking to people is I mean, I haven't met anybody else who's taken that exact path. Everybody has their own path and they're and they're wildly different. You can you can make it to the GC chair. If you're a litigation associate, you can be a regulatory lawyer, you can be doing something that seemingly has no relation when you're at the law firm. And some people were never at a law firm.

Cecilia Ziniti 0:40

Welcome back to CZ and Friends, where we talk with legal leaders, technologists, and operators shaping modern companies and beyond. I'm your host, Cecilia Ziniti. Today I'm joined by Joe Schohl. He's had some of the most demanding seats in the profession. He was a Fortune 500 general counsel in healthcare. He was a private equity-backed company general counsel. And he's been a chief legal officer in high growth environments. Today he brings that experience in two places. He's the founder of General Counsel West, where he provides outside GC support to growth-focused healthcare companies. And he's the co-founder of Inside Council Academy. He coaches and trains in-house lawyers. We care a lot about that on this podcast. And he wants to help people grow into leadership roles. So really nice match. Joe and I met on the internet, of course, but he's been the general counsel of DaVita and other really big players and had these kind of super high-stakes moments that we've talked about so much. So he's also the host of a podcast. So this is a little bit of a tables turn situation. He interviews GCs about their careers. So in this case, I'm going to talk to him about his career and then kind of post-legal. We'll always get a lot of interest on the show when we talk about, you know, what do you do after you've been kind of that apex role? So this conversation about the reality of the GC role, the pressure, what it takes to build a career. And um just super excited to dive in. Joe, welcome to the show.

Joseph Schohl 2:02

Cecilia, it's great to be here. That sounds like a lot of topics we're going to cover. I'm excited to jump in and see uh see if I can deliver on half of those things.

Cecilia Ziniti 2:11

Let's go. Let's dive right in. You are a Fortune 500 company GC at 36. Holy moly. So how'd you get there when you first walked into the job? You got the title. I'm imagining, you know, you've got the nameplate or whatever, you know, Joe Schohl, General Counsel. What was going through your head?

Joseph Schohl 2:29

Yeah, whatever was going through my head, there wasn't a whole lot of time to process it because on my first day of work, my boss told me we're in an auction situation to buy another company and potentially double the size of our company. And I need you to get on a plane to New York and see if you can, we're behind and we want to help see if you can help swing things in our direction. So I went to work that morning. Usually, you know, you sort of find out where the bathroom is, you do your HR training, et cetera, et cetera. There was none of that. I was off to New York and I didn't come home until almost 10 days later.

Cecilia Ziniti 3:06

So did you get the deal done?

Joseph Schohl 3:07

We did get the deal. Well, we didn't get we, we won, we won the bid. So we signed the deal, but it was 10 months before we closed the deal because we had to go through the FTC process. And at that time, and this was 2004 to 2005, we had to uh we went through what was then the longest approval process uh to date with the FTC.

Cecilia Ziniti 3:31

So you walk in, you so were you promoted into the role originally, or what was the I was hired into the role.

Joseph Schohl 3:37

So I had been, I had been at my prior company, I was two levels down from the GC uh and had a couple of paralegals reporting to me, but no lawyers. So this really was like uh the dog who catches the, you know, the fire engine, right? And so I was highly ambitious and motivated to get a GC job, and I got it. And then it was a little bit like be careful what you wish for, because it was quite a ride that first year until I settled into the role was a real roller coaster, you know, for me both professionally and personally.

Cecilia Ziniti 4:11

Wow. All right. So you had been at Sidley and then you were at Baxter and this company, so this is DeVita. We've all seen it. Every they were the biggest provider of dialysis in America. Had you been a lifelong healthcare person at that point?

Joseph Schohl 4:25

So I had done healthcare work when I was at Sidley, and that's what led to my in-house role at Baxter. And then from that point forward, everything I've done is healthcare. And in and in fact, other than Baxter, which was more device work, once I got to DaVita, it's been healthcare services ever since.

Cecilia Ziniti 4:46

So what you're on that plane to New York, or or let's say you're coming back from New York and you win the off and you're like, all right, did did you think like, like, how did you even set your priorities list for things?

Joseph Schohl 4:57

I'm coming back from New York and um and I'm and I'm flying, I'm flying on the company jet with the CEO who lives in Northern California. And so then the jet's gonna take me back to LA. I live outside of LA. And I had to get home because my daughter, who, my oldest daughter, who's now a lawyer, but at that time she was second grade or something, she had a choir concert. And so even though like nobody expected me to be gone that whole first week, I said I would be home in time to go to her concert. And so I got home late early morning. And uh the next day I got to go to her concert, and um, and we went out for ice cream afterwards. And it was at that point I said, I have to go back to New York. This is a Friday night. And she said, she says, I know mom said you have to go back on on Monday uh or Sunday. And I said, I said, no, I have to go back right now. Wow. And she said, and she said, you know, I don't like your new job. And I said, I'm not sure I like it either.

Cecilia Ziniti 6:03

That's a lot of people.

Joseph Schohl 6:04

I mean, that kind of that that kind of showed what a whirlwind it was, you know, and then it didn't abate because, like I said, we signed the deal, and then it was getting the deal approved through the FTC. And that meant every Sunday getting on a plane to Washington, D.C. and coming home Wednesday or Thursday. So anyway, that's what it was. Uh, we did get it approved. I did settle into the role. I eventually built a team. We can talk about that. And the most important thing, um, if you're gonna make the role sustainable, is to build a great team, you know, and that's what, and that's what happened. But it was a lot of it was a lot of hard knocks.

Cecilia Ziniti 6:39

Any big takeaway for for our folks when they've got a big deal in a regulated area? Like if I was to think, okay, one thing that you took away from that deal, and then obviously you lived with that deal for years later. Um, you were at Debita five years after that.

Joseph Schohl 6:55

Yeah. Yeah, I think I think it was a careful balance, especially early on, wanting to be helpful to the process and to the government, and also wanting to maintain credibility, which meant a lot of times having to say, I don't know the answer to that, but I understand the question and I'll go find out. Because I was still learning the business, the company, the answers to questions that were being asked. It wasn't like I had years and years of experience in the job before we got put in this pivotal moment.

Cecilia Ziniti 7:27

So what um did you develop a relationship with the the regulators in that scenario?

Joseph Schohl 7:32

Yeah, because we're seeing, you know, in person, we're seeing the same people every week. And over time, um learning more and more about the business. And, you know, eventually we got to a point we had to make divestitures. You know, it was a whole it was a whole thing, but we always maintained, you know, a really good relationship with those folks. They were very professional and and we had great outside lawyers, of course, couldn't have done it without without them guiding us through the process.

Cecilia Ziniti 8:00

For lawyers that want to become a GC someday, yeah. You know, they hear that, they hear, you know, the the the ice cream with the kiddo that you you gotta kind of sadly leave. Tell us like the like like I I liked being a GC sometimes, so I can talk about like the Peace Corps, like it's the hardest job you'll you'll ever left.

Joseph Schohl 8:19

Yeah.

Cecilia Ziniti 8:20

Was that is that the feeling that you had, or or like thinking about kind of these pinnacle moments, relationships with regulators, getting deals done, you know, doubling the size of the company, you know, i in a in less than a year. What's the kind of tell us about the fun part?

Joseph Schohl 8:38

Well, the fun part is, you know, in a job like that and in in most GC roles, you're really gonna find out what you're capable of, right? Because it's gonna, it's going to in terms of breadth and in terms of depth. And so if you're serious about whatever it is you do, you want to see how good you can become at it. And you don't a lot of people don't really get pushed or get that opportunity because they're in jobs that, you know, they can they can do without stretching their full full capabilities. I happen to get a job that pushed me to my then current capabilities and beyond. And really everything that's come since then has seemed much easier because of that. And it also it's the kind of thing that can really build uh sort of genuine confidence because confidence is built by being put in situations where you don't know if you're going to be successful and you figure out a way to do it and you learn from that. And so that builds confidence for the next thing. So it's not really a fake it till you make it. It's more of a um, as you are put in situations where it may be a little bit over your head and you figure it out, then you build genuine confidence that, okay, in the next thing that's a little over my head, there's a way to figure that out too, as long as I'm willing to work hard and surround myself with the right people.

Cecilia Ziniti 9:54

So all that experience, it sounds like, led you to have this passion for helping other in-house counsel.

Joseph Schohl 10:03

Yeah. What it did. It did. I mean, also in that first year, you know, the company we were acquiring had a general counsel. And my CEO came to me and said, the company we're acquiring has a general counsel. And uh, and so we don't know if you'll be the general counsel of the combined company. I haven't really told the story much. But I said, okay, well, I left it, I left a great job where I was on a really good trajectory. So, you know, we'll see how things work out. And if if they don't work out for me here, I assume you'll treat me fairly on the way out. So I sort of put it a stake in the ground. And uh I remember going home that evening and being a little bit upset, you know, that here I had sacrificed so much. And he, you know, he had said to me, Hey, you're you're off to a tremendous start. Like we couldn't have asked for better. I had been an MA lawyer before. First project is a big MA project. Um, you know, you're way ahead of where we thought you would be. But if we had known we were gonna get this big this fast, we might not have hired an inexperienced GC. You know, so he's very honest, very honest. And uh, and so I went home that night, licked my wounds a little bit, and I showed up the next day and I was like, well, I'm the GC now. This is what I said in my head. I didn't say this out loud to anybody, but I'm the GC now, so I'm gonna be the GC until somebody tells me I'm not the GC. And it was that mindset that made all the difference. And then had and then that led to me be, you know, continuing on when the when the deal closed as as the GC, because I thought, well, if it's only gonna be for a period of time, I'm gonna get the most out of it as I can for my next opportunity. And I'm not gonna sit here like every decision that I make, plagued with doubt of would this move the needle one way or another. I was just gonna go, gonna go all in, and that's what I did. Also during that time, uh, the CEO said, it'd be great to pair you up with a, you know, his words at the time, a 50-year-old experienced GC as a coach, right? And uh, this is back when um, I mean, coaches weren't really a big thing. And so I was open to that, but I wasn't necessarily like, oh, that's a great idea, but I was open to it. So we, you know, we looked and we couldn't really find one who who could do that or would do that. And so we never actually did that. But as my career progressed and I started to, after my last full-time GC job, I coached and mentored my successor into that role for almost an entire year. Um, I thought I really like this aspect of it. And so I went and got a coaching certification. And when I turned 50, like on the day I turned 50, I said, hey, I'm open to be that person that we couldn't find when, you know, when I was younger and looking for one that probably would have saved me a lot of uh, you know, late nights and and uh hard knocks.

Cecilia Ziniti 12:45

I wanna I want to home in on that conversation that morning. So I feel like and and it's something that for me, and maybe it is, you know, age or or at least uh you know, experience where the ability to say kind of what you said, you said, Hey, you know, I left a good job to come here for for this role. And you know, you didn't say, and you said you I assume you would take care of me on the way out. So you you pointed out the elephant, right? The elephant was, hey, you might not make you might not make the cut for this kind of new big company. You just said, Yeah, I might not. And and you talked about about being fired, basically. So, like, what was going through your head? Like, like, is this something like I think a lot of people wouldn't do that? And I I see now that like saying the unsaid is so powerful. And so obviously it worked out for you. Say something or or tell our listeners like how do you have that boldness in the moment? And do you even perceive it as boldness?

Joseph Schohl 13:43

I don't know. I think I probably perceived it as necessary. I had two kids, two daughters. I I wound up with four daughters along the way. So, you know, I've got to provide for for this group of people, right? Before they're launched out into the world. And so, you know, and again, I was very career ambition focused at at the time. And so it, you know, it was playing through my head, how was this gonna look? If I got this job and then I and then I didn't have this job, was I gonna go, would I find another GC job? Would I go back into a bigger company and be comfortable not being the GC? You know, it all sort of it all sort of flashed through my head. And then yeah, that came out of my mouth. And I remember I I reflected on it like on the drive home that night, I was like, you know, like a lot of times I'd be reflecting on the way home, like, oh, I wish I had said this or that or the other thing. But that night I was like, that was pretty good.

Cecilia Ziniti 14:39

Oh me.

Joseph Schohl 14:40

That's a pretty good thing to say, right?

Cecilia Ziniti 14:42

That's right. It worked out. And then you went, you switched to this kind of like juice squeeze mode, which I like. So I I do have coaches, and I agree with you that coaching and leadership and even this podcast, the idea that, you know, the legal side or the technical side of the job, you know, accounting or law or engineering or whatever it is, are obviously part of effectiveness, but they're only just part of it, and that you can improve yourself, your company, everything by kind of the whole other part of it that you can coach. That's pretty new. Like, I think, you know, I obviously I was joking, I went to Barnes and Noble last night, and there's all the kind of self-help books. I'm like, oh, I've only read half of them. Let me read the other half. But I don't think for me, having that moment of like, okay, let's squeeze all the juice out of this job. Like, what are the experiences that I want to have? How effective can I be in your words? So, how do you do that? So then, like you, you literally like you said, okay, I'm not gonna sit around thinking I might be fired because then you're gonna be nervous. So, what did you what did you do when you switched to that mode where you're like, I'm the juicy till somebody tells me I'm not? Right. What did you do to improve yourself?

Joseph Schohl 15:48

And since you didn't get it, yeah, I will tell you because I am a professional development junkie, always have been. And so at that time, one of the first things I did because I was I was realizing during this period of time there were so many inputs coming at me. And so my systems for managing my work were straining under the volume, okay, and under being a leader and having to be in recruiting mode and a lot of things I hadn't done before. And so I took in the middle of that first year while the whole FTC process was going on, and I didn't even tell anybody, I took two days and went, I looked up, researched, I went to a David Allen getting things done when he was still still teaching it. And so I met him and went to his two-day seminar, and it seemed a little crazy because the I mean, this was for a good year, I was every day working in meetings, full day. And then I'd be able to turn to email at like 10 or 11 at night, and that would go until one in the morning. I'd get up and do it again the next the next day. I had a long commute. Sometimes I'd stay at a hotel near the company. I was just, you know, really burning the candle at both ends. So then to take two days out where stuff is going to stack up in order to go to a seminar, people would be like, that's crazy. But it was total Franklin cubby. Like I couldn't continue to cut trees down with the saw that I had. So I had to take time out, go sharpen the saw, get a new saw, get a whole new way of doing things. And then I came back and, you know, started applying those techniques. And I found that I could keep up at a at a much higher level of volume than I could before that. And, you know, and that served me like all the way to this day. So whatever I paid for that seminar in terms of time and money out of my own pocket, it's ridiculous the rate of return on something like that.

Cecilia Ziniti 17:57

Love that. I love that. Yeah, it's it's we encounter that a lot here at GCAI because obviously, like you know, we see people using it and just being much faster, more effective, all these things. But we frequently get people being like, Oh, I don't have time for a demo.

Joseph Schohl 18:13

I'm like, okay, you know, let's let us do it. Oh my gosh, totally right. Yeah.

Cecilia Ziniti 18:18

But no, it's great.

Joseph Schohl 18:19

We did not have GCAI back then.

Cecilia Ziniti 18:26

We sent out like a marketing email this week about uh about how much time you save, and it was, you know, have quotes and situations and scenarios and whatnot. And we had a longtime user reply, he says, Chichilia, like I only take, you know, I'm finished now what I used to do. It takes me 10% of the time to do what I used to do. And he said very earnestly, he's like, Am I supposed to put that time into doing more for my company and like more capitalism? He's like, Can I just go surfing or do something else instead? And I was like, wow, you know, and that's I think you talked about getting things done. And I people always ask me, so I mean, you said you have four kids, I have you know, four kids as well. And it's kind of like, you know, yes, of course, there's like a lot going on, but it's like, it's like more and fun. I don't I don't know. I I I I I I'm jibing with you on this personal productivity thing. So maybe we take, so what were the lessons of that of that thing? And then you now have a um like an in-house counsel advisory practice, and you have basically there's like these eight aspects that you talk about. I'm assuming some kind of productivity's got to be one of them. Also a junkie, you know, tell us about that.

Joseph Schohl 19:37

Yeah, for sure. I mean, of the uh we have eight, we have the eight essentials, and you could have you could have any number because they're they're not gonna be like things that are such a surprise. But there are four things under personal effectiveness, and then four things under organizational effectiveness and how you relate to others. The things under personal effectiveness, you know, sort of the number one thing. Is adopting a GoPro mindset, what I call the GoPro mindset, like absolute professional. Like people choose to be NBA, you know, basketball players, people choose to be world-class musicians. We've chosen to be in-house lawyers. And we should treat it with every bit of, you know, respect and dignity as any profession and perform at our highest level. And in order to do that, we've got to set ourselves up by doing all the things to put ourselves in the best position to do that, including self-care and getting enough sleep and et cetera, et cetera. And then having this mindset that I'm learning and I'm I'm learning tools and skills that keep me at the top of the profession. Okay, so that's number one. Decision making and judgment, there's no substitute for that. I mean, if you talk to CEOs and you ask them what you are looking for in a GC, they're gonna say it's judgment, right? And can that be taught? Maybe maybe, you know, a lot of people think no, but I think yes. Like there are ways to, there are frameworks for decision making. There are ways to learn from decisions, what worked, what didn't work after action reviews, et cetera, to improve your judgment and accelerate the development of judgment. Because judgment, yes, it accrues over time, but just like driving a car, imagine when you were 15 and a half and you get your learner's permit, you're learning so much, so much and you're not a good driver. And then fast forward to when you're like 25 and you can drive without even thinking about it. Maybe it takes that long, but you know what I'm saying.

Cecilia Ziniti 21:40

Yeah.

Joseph Schohl 21:40

But okay, now you're 25. Are you a better driver at 35 than you were at 25? Like maybe, maybe not. If you're just like driving and not really thinking about it, probably not. But if you're, you know, taking driving lessons, performance, driving, et cetera, et cetera, yes, you would be a better driver. It's kind of that way with what we do, in that you're gonna get to a certain level just by doing more of it, but then it's gonna it's gonna tail off unless you're doing things to continuously make yourself better at it. Third one under personal effectiveness is communication skills, right? Written, verbal, all the ways, all the ways that we know. And then the fourth one is how do you add breath to your depth? So if you're gonna be a GC, you got to know something about everything. I mean, GC AI is a game changer in you know, in that regard. I think about the workshops we did at the beginning of the year. We just launched this at the beginning of 2025. Well, we mentioned AI in this module, right? How do you increase your experience and knowledge base when you're expected to know something about everything and you don't? Now, fast forward, like this is all about AI. How do you use AI tools to accelerate your your knowledge?

Cecilia Ziniti 22:56

But that's amazing. So much there, the communication, the depth and breadth is like I had a coach tell me, like, look, Chichilia, you can get, you know, five percent better at privacy law, but if you get 10% better at cross-functional communication, then you get promoted. And that's exactly what happened.

Joseph Schohl 23:11

Totally. Um these are the important things. Like, if you're gonna, if you're gonna move up as an executive, it's uh it's communication and judgment.

Cecilia Ziniti 23:22

Thousand percent. So let's talk about AI. So, how are you using AI today? And um give us your point of view, how you came into it, what you're doing with it now.

Joseph Schohl 23:30

Yeah, I mean it's uh you know, I I'm waiting for more time to pass using it so that it doesn't seem so so dramatic or that I I because I don't feel new to it. But if you look back at, if I look back at the beginning of August, I wasn't using AI at all. Um, and I know that because I had a conversation with my sister who is a lawyer, and she was starting, starting to use it. She has a trust and estates practice back in the Midwest, and she's telling me about some things, and I'm like, yeah, I should probably, you know, figure that out and blah, blah, blah. And so after that conversation, I did, I did jump in and figure it out. And I had listened to uh Sterling Miller's interview on Stacy Bratcher's podcast, the legal department, and he talked about AI tools and he talked about some specific ones, including GCAI. So all the ones that he mentioned, I got a demo of and and and dove into. And and I use like four different tools. But I'll say, and I know it's not a promotion, but GCAI is is the number one most powerful one that I use.

Cecilia Ziniti 24:35

Awesome. Love it. So when you had that kind of first moment of seeing that AI could be applied to legal work, yeah. Did you have that that realization, especially given your your your background on productivity?

Joseph Schohl 24:55

Yeah, I mean, there were probably like somebody should map out the stages, right? Because the first stage is like, what? Like, this is crazy. I can't believe it was able to answer that with all this information, blah, blah, blah. The second stage is like a little grief, like, are they gonna need any of us anymore? Right. And then, and then over time it matures into, okay, I see uh the value and I see the limitations. And uh it's definitely an important skill, one of the most important skills now is going to be to learn how to use AI in your practice, whether you're an in-house lawyer or an outside lawyer, in a way that's most effective. Right. It's gonna be like the ninth essential is do you know how to get the right things out of it? And I I remember thinking like there should be more, like right off the bat, there should be more training of people how to write prompts, how, you know, and and now three months later, four months later, I'm seeing it everywhere, right? And and you guys were one of the first ones, and I signed up for uh a couple of 101 and a 201 and 205 or something that you guys put out there, and I'd say that really accelerated my understanding and use of the GCAI tool and other tools as well. So I'm a big fan, which is, you know, which is like when I saw you at a podcast, I thought, what what a what a perfect one?

Cecilia Ziniti 26:30

Yeah, just so now yeah, now the tables turned. So how'd you get into podcasting? That's a fun one.

Joseph Schohl 26:35

How did I get into podcasting? I got into podcasting a year ago at this time. I mean, my friend Stacy Bratcher had launched the Legal Department podcast, which I think is great. And I was so impressed that she had done it, and I'd had that idea for some time before, but had never acted on it. I had done some podcast guesting, and then I thought, you know, it'd be fun just to just to have my own podcast. So I made the investment. It's a labor of love, as you know. And and I just I I've used it to connect and reconnect with people who I know who are GCs and really just hear about their journey to the GC chair. And then being in the GC chair, what do they do to be, you know, world class and most effective? And then I take those ideas and I funnel them back through the academy. Because then, you know, the academy, instead of being just like, hey, what did what does Joe Scholl think the right way to do these things are? It's like, hey, what's the, you know, what's the collective wisdom and what are the collective best practices all boil down into one place?

Cecilia Ziniti 27:38

Love that. So boiling all these down, so are there any either moments or pearls of wisdom from your podcast that you would share with an aspiring either legal leader or just somebody, just an executive? Like what are the like we talked about the eight principles of effectiveness. Is there any kind of concept that you'd want to relay that came out from out of those stories that you're working on with people?

Joseph Schohl 28:01

Well, I mean, it's such a yeah, one of the things that struck me is we're all products of our own experience. And so I thought that there was a tried and true path to the GC chair. And then there were a couple of outliers, right? But the tried and true path being the path that I had taken, which is you go to big law, you are corporate securities, MA transactional associate, and you either make partner or you leave before your partner, you go in-house, you get that experience, you try to get an in-house job where you have where you're working for a leader with PL responsibility, where you're like part of a mini business unit, and then you get promoted into the big chair. And what I found in talking to people is I mean, I haven't met anybody else who's taken that exact path. Everybody has their own path, and they're and they're wildly different. You can you can make it to the GC chair if you're a litigation associate, you can be a regulatory lawyer, you can be doing something that seemingly has no relation when you're at the law firm. And some people were never at a law firm. So it's really less about the like checking certain boxes than it is accumulating skills and talent that make you valuable to a CEO.

Cecilia Ziniti 29:23

Yeah. I mean, for me, like I was a former litigator, I did some transactions, but I've had a spicy conversation, and now you're giving me an idea for a uh like a webinar is like, are litigators, ex-litigators the best GC? Because I you know, I think of like of Savon Whitley at Block or of Lauren Lennon at Scale and some of these GCs that I just super admire. And they would tell you, like you said, the product of your own experience of like litigating these things in a regulated industry is like you kind of know what goes wrong and you're super detalented. But I had another, another guy that I that I talk with, another user, he said he only hires MA lawyers as product counsel. And I said, Well, that's really interesting. Why? And he kind of told the story similar to what you said, where he thought, okay, in an MA, you got to get up to speed really fast. It's kind of an adrenaline junky type of job. And you basically like have to make judgments across a bunch of areas of law, right? Of like, is there a risk? Is it a real estate risk? Is there an employment risk, like whatever it is? And he thought that the curiosity and the kind of adrenaline-seeking lawyers were were the best uh at that. And so fascinating that to hear hear you say that. But I would say I definitely agree. Like at this point, thousands of GCs, and there's not any kind of one model. And there's, I think the corollary to that, and I'm curious your thoughts, is the kind of the like, be the best you you can be, right?

Joseph Schohl 30:48

And be w and be willing. I mean, I think the that word curiosity is so important. So being willing to go beyond, you can never be a GC and say that's not in my area of expertise. Like people would look at you like, well, whose is it then? Because you're the like anything that touches legal, regulatory, risk, et cetera, if it you could never say that because you better make it your, you know, your area quickly if that's what the company needs.

Cecilia Ziniti 31:15

Exactly, exactly. And that's you know, something that for me, that particular learning came from a lot of it was actually Amazon, where they said, okay, everyone's leader. It doesn't matter what your title is, it doesn't matter what you do, like you will think company wide. And curiosity, learn and be curious was like, I think my favorite Amazon leadership principle. But I read this really interesting research. I'm kind of like similar to you with being the personal development junkie around the psychology of it, that actually people are very curious, also partly from that dopamine seeking. Like, you want to know the answers. Like you so you continuously kind of do that. Actually, somewhat related. I thought I thought that was really interesting.

Joseph Schohl 31:50

Yeah, totally. Totally. I worked for a partner at Sidley who I really admired and sought projects with because even though we were doing transactions, he would do extra to understand the operations in ways that some other traction transactional lawyers, you know, didn't really want to be in the weeds of that because they saw themselves as like overlaying a way of doing a transaction to your company, I'm gonna do it to your company, et cetera. And so it's just a different mindset. Those people were great law firm transactional partners, but I knew I wanted to be a GC. So I went down the path of okay, anytime I'm in the room, are they talking about something that that I don't know and that I could learn, whether or not it's related to the transaction or or even law in general.

Cecilia Ziniti 32:40

All right. So let's um let's go to the lightning round. So a couple quick ones. Anything about being a GC that is like a myth or that you would want to debunk.

Joseph Schohl 32:53

That's a good, that's a good question. That's a myth. I think most of the things are probably true that uh I think people say, which is like it can be a lonely job, right? I think that's better now. So maybe that's a myth. But you know, when I was a GC, there weren't a lot of opportunities like structurally to share best practices with other GCs. I think there's much more of a community now. So maybe I'll put that in the category of it's the loneliest job is a myth because you've got lots of ways now that you can build bridges to other GCs.

Cecilia Ziniti 33:26

I would agree with that. And it's funny because for me, I spent a lot of time thinking about that around. I thought because of the myth, GC was a lonely job. But no, actually, like going to, you know, tech GC or your podcast or other things is quite a lot. And, you know, welcome to the to the GCAI community as well. Like we, you know, no reason to be lonely as a GC. Um, all right. We talked about the the Franklin Covey and the and the GSD, the David Allen, of course, classic. Any other books, ideas, or mentors that have these are all these are all my classics right here. Look at that. Look at that. Oh, okay. If we can if we can zoom in. So if you're on audio only, he's got a full bookshelf, basically, and I'm seeing what am I seeing? Am I seeing one percent better every day?

Joseph Schohl 34:07

Maybe this is my hall of fame. So I've got tons of books in the other room. Um, but this is like mindset, deep work, the one thing, seven habits, atomic habits, you know, things, things like that. There's also, I'll put a plug-in for um for this one. Probably not that many people have read it, the inside counts of revolution.

Cecilia Ziniti 34:30

Of course.

Joseph Schohl 34:31

So you've got um a guy like Ben Heinemann, a legend, uh, who's like written this book. Could you imagine? Like the opportunity to sit his at his feet for 475 pages. People should read that.

Cecilia Ziniti 34:46

They should.

Joseph Schohl 34:47

We've read it and then boiled it into Inside Council Academy if you don't have time.

Cecilia Ziniti 34:51

Let's do that. Yeah. So, Joe, funny you should say that. I actually cited Ben Heinemann's book in our pitch deck for GCAI.

Joseph Schohl 34:59

Did you really? Yeah.

Cecilia Ziniti 35:00

What we're building is basically like taking that greatness of a great GC and putting it into software so it can be shared among the company and it can be used by others so that more junior folks, we get people all the time saying GCAI has helped our folks like actually do more, go deeper, go higher. And a lot of it is inspired by what he wrote, which is like, so if you haven't read the book, check it out. I 100% agree with with um with Joe that it's worth reading. But one of the points he makes is this like partner guardian tension, right? Whereas like, you got to move the business forward, but of course, we're responsible for protecting it and how you effectively do that globally. I mean, it was it's literally, it's a it's a fantastic, and also students of history, like sounds like you and I are.

Joseph Schohl 35:43

Yeah, it gives me it gives me chills to hear that because I don't run into many people who've who've made their way through and understand that. And in our academy, habits uh are essential six and seven are six is partner with your business and seven is protect the organization.

Cecilia Ziniti 35:58

Exactly.

Joseph Schohl 35:59

And that's where we we do refer to band as well.

Cecilia Ziniti 36:02

Yeah. So what um, what's uh uh so how can people find you? Can people take your class? Maybe we'll do, I'm gonna make an executive, a CEO decision and say that if you've taken Joe's class, you can automatically 10% off GCAI.

Joseph Schohl 36:15

Yeah, well, I mean, so there's a really good match between two. We really offer it in two ways. We have done several in-house workshops for teams. So if you're a GC who's looking to provide professional development for your team, you know, a lot of people think like CLE, we'll have our outside firm come in and present on a topic. That's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about how do you level up their skills. And that's, and so we'll come in and do like a full day we're in-person workshop, and maybe it's part of a larger department retreat somebody's having, and that's been great. I've really, I've really enjoyed the in-person full day. We also have done with individuals who uh wanna want to take the course online. You go through it with a cohort, et cetera. And so as we head into 2026, and that's spaced out, it's like twice a week for a month, you know, you come and we cover the essentials in that format. And so as I head into 2026, I'm really looking to combine the in-person workshop with opening it up to people from all companies. So it's not just if your GC happens to offer it to your department and do do some stuff that, you know, is live where we go through all the essentials in one day and uh and get us off. Now, if people want to hear more, they should connect with me on LinkedIn, uh, go to the insightcouncilacademy.com website, get on our newsletter, and and then they'll hear more about what we're gonna be offering.

Cecilia Ziniti 37:43

Awesome. Yeah. So I think it's a really nice pairing. Like GCAI, we're doing our summit in January. We'd love to have you. But yeah, I have it on my calendar.

Joseph Schohl 37:51

Amazing. I'm registered. Yeah.

Cecilia Ziniti 37:53

New year, basically, like, you know, the personal effectiveness, effectiveness as a GC, using AI to do it, of course. That's uh, that's our that's our plan. But so excited to have you. This was so fun to nerd out.

Joseph Schohl 38:04

Can I say one more thing if there's time? I mean, I you know, it's funny because you just the what you what you just said stuck in my head because I have had for, you know, since the DaVita days, um, a way of wrapping up each day. And I call it my big five. Okay. And it's my big five is I return in file any emails. So I'm in box zero once a day at the end of the day. Number two, I review the calendar from that day and I incorporate any notes and follow-ups into my task list. Number three, I update the task list for things that have been done. I identify things that are undone. And then number four is I enter my time because I'm an outside lawyer now. And then number five is I pick tomorrow's big three. What are my priorities for the next day? And so it's been the same for since I started my firm, you know, 16 years ago. And now I have a sixth one on there, which is you talking to my AI partners, like using AI after I've just previewed the calendar for the next day and looked at my tasks. What are the things that I can use AI as a partner for? And you know, that didn't exist for me four months ago, but it's hard, hard for me even me to believe that because now it's become such an essential part of each day. And that's how you really then start to use it and you don't forget and you you you appreciate what it can do for you.

Cecilia Ziniti 39:28

Wow, I love that. It reminds me of like, so my mom who listens to this podcast, hi mom. My mom says that you know, that basically GPS um has changed how you visit a city and changed how you interact with the world. And so in this case, this is like AI literally affecting your daily routine and making it better. I love that.

Joseph Schohl 39:48

Right. Totally, totally.

Cecilia Ziniti 39:50

Awesome. Well, this is so much wisdom. Thank you so much for being on the show, Joe. That was really fun.

Joseph Schohl 39:56

Thank you for having me. And I I really look forward to meeting you in person in January.

Cecilia Ziniti 40:00

That's gonna be great. That was my conversation with Joe Schohl, a leader who's lived the GC role in a dramatic and then an exciting, but then also just super inspiring way. And now he helps others grow into the role. Fellow productivity junkie, fellow legal in-house enthusiasts, super fun. So follow CZ and Friends wherever you get your podcasts. So to learn how legal teams are using AI to work smarter, lead with impact, and be more like the effective GCs that Joe talks about, visit gc.ai. Thank you for listening, and we will see you next time.