Ep.3: From the Bottom to the Top- Vanessa Reiser's story of escaping, healing, and thriving

In this episode, I am joined with The Vanessa Reiser, survivor, therapist, mom, author, ironman, and narcissistic/cult expert. We delve into how victims can escape, become survivors and then learn to thrive despite what their exes do or don't do. Vanessa talks about her own personal story and how she climbed out from the bottom she found herself in and rebuilt her life from the ground up. She partners her own personal experience with her professional expertise on narcissistic abuse to provide us with tips, tricks, tools, and strategies for all those who find themselves in abusive relationships, and those who have escaped them. 

If you've ever wondered how to build back up, how to heal, how to thrive and not merely survive, this conversation is for you. 

You can find Vanessa on IG @vanessareiserlcsw or at www.tellatherapist.net

Visit: https://chantalcontorinescoaching.com to learn how to work with me.

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This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not legal advice.

Transcript

0:01

Welcome everybody to The Survivor's Playbook with Chantal Contorines, your host, this is the podcast for every survivor of abuse. If abusers can have a playbook, then why can't survivors so that you can actually live a life that you love despite what your abuser does or doesn't do? And today, I'm so excited to have Vanessa Reiser on, she is a woman with many hats. She's a therapist, she's a survivor. She's a cult and narcissistic abuse expert. She's an author, a mom, she's a runner. She, you probably have seen her in the news, she runs every year in her wedding dress across states. She's a powerhouse. So thank you so much, Vanessa, for being on today and taking time out of your busy life to help people live lives that they love. Thank you so much. On that note, how did you get into this? How did you become an expert in this field? Yes, great question. I attended the University of Southern California and became a social worker, and whilst in master's program, never learned anything about personality disorders So I have this$115,000 brain from one of the greatest institutions, and yet had no idea what was happening to me when I went through it myself, even as a therapist. And that's really important for people to understand. There's this erroneous belief that only uneducated people who don't know about this fall prey. But they're predators, abusers are predators and they will go after everybody. And the higher you are, the more educated you are, the more beautiful, charismatic, good looking you are, the bigger the prey. It's wow, I've actually snagged this person. So anybody is susceptible to abuse. That's the overarching thing. It's not just ignorant people. It's not just people you know who low iq. It can happen to anybody, and I really think that's important. We talk a lot about women in these environments. But in the NXIVM cult, we had Mark Vicente who was victimized. We saw Kevin Spacey's victims all be men. We saw P Diddy's, victims of coercive control also be some men. And I think that's important to highlight because I think that's when we'll see the change is when men come out and discuss, how they themselves have been victimized by a narcissist, a sociopath, or a psychopath. But yes, that is absolutely correct. They cast out a bunch of lines, and if you don't have good boundaries, and they can exploit anything that you're gonna give them, including sex, housing, fame, money, any, anything at all cooking they will exploit any value added on their behalf. So it really doesn't, it runs the gamut. Nobody is immune from mind control. And that's really important because, and you touched upon something because I work with both men and women because abuse affects both. Abusers are men and they're women. There are people who you know are famous. They're people who are not famous. They're people next door. They can be your priest. They can be your lawyer. They can be your doctor. They can be your teacher. They come in every shape and form, and not every abuser is obvious. There are. I think we've come a long way in society's understanding a little bit more about abuse, but not every abuser is charismatic, is gregarious. Some are very covert, some are very vulnerable. Some come across as really shy. And, self-deprecating. So they come in all shapes and sizes, genders, races, cultures socioeconomic statuses. You have some people who are very high level and some people who are very low level. So you were in school, educating yourself while simultaneously being abused. I actually was out of school already, so I did graduate, I graduated from USC and was working at the Jewish Board in the Bronx, which was an outpatient mental health clinic. And I absolutely loved it. And then I did fall into this relationship where I found myself rather confused, isolated. Just lots of gaslighting. My energy was just totally enveloped, long text messages, being flown all over the world. And I lost myself. And by the time I woke up from this stupor, it was almost too late. I was really. Homeless, jobless friendless. It was really awful. It was a complete nuclear fallout. And that is what abusers do, is they isolate you and you they create this dependency on them, as either, the only person who is there for them, the only person that you have a support. And if you aren't fully isolated. It's typically their support system So their friends, their family and financial abuse is such an easy way to abuse somebody if you take away their, ability to actually make money leaving is so much harder when you don't have access to money. Yeah. And I was no different than anyone else in that I found myself in that cycle of abuse of. The makeup session, the fallout, the, sorry, the makeup session, the tension building, and then the fallout, and it went with this rhythm. It seemed to be like every 14 days there would be a fallout, and then we would have this kind of like makeup session and then a tension building and the fallout, and it was so dizzying and I would slip further and further from myself with each fallout, because I would look at myself in the mirror. I remember doing this in the bathroom and thinking who are you? Because I began to make bigger concessions and more excuses as time went on. And he would turn up the dial because he was probably watching what I was tolerating. And I couldn't believe what I was tolerating. It was blowing me away and I really did begin to dig my heels in deeper with him. Believe it or not. And so it felt almost like a hole that I needed to climb out of when I finally got out of it. And it took me two years solid of just licking wounds, studying, stepping into my power. Beginning to radically self-love myself again. A lot of people who are in cults, by the way, they have a harder time because they don't have that sense of self. I was at least able to go find that girl that I was prior, which is really important. But yeah, it was. It was so slow moving, even in my case, which was pretty fast.'Cause it was a short relationship. It was under two years. But it was still so slow that I couldn't see, the death by a million cuts. It was just happening slowly. And when you're in it, it's so hard to see. You can't see the doors for the trees. I can see each individual thing if they're micro cuts. Death by a million cuts. If they're micro cuts, you're like, oh you can justify it. And as abuse progresses you become better at justifying the abuse, oh, they had a stressful day at work, or they just lost this contract, whatever it is. If I just did this, oh, I must be part of the, the actual problem. They treat other people better than they treat me, so I'm obviously at fault. So if I just did this better, if I just made their steak, the way they liked it today, or clean the house or whatever it is maybe I wouldn't have experienced what I just experienced. Yeah. And they're not always bad Abusers are very adept at giving you just enough hope so you stay. It's oh, that's the person that I fell in love with right there. And it feels euphoric because you've been starving for any affection and attention. So when they finally do give you positive reinforcement, positive attention and affection oh, that feels beautiful. And it's like the sun's shining on you and everything, and they're, very good. By the time you get into this type of relationship, they've been practicing for years. Every relationship they become master manipulators. And most people are unaware that this is something that they can be. Yeah. And then it feels like a drug addiction. So you're looking for that high, you're looking for that love bomb. You're looking for that makeup session again, because it's a fix basically. You're getting a dopamine hit in that moment. Yeah. And that's the, that is the trauma bond, you are literally Exactly. Physically addicted to the highs and the lows, like your body, is looking for that next hit. You become like a drug addict. And it's unbeknownst to you, you haven't chosen this, but the very cycle of abuse and, the highs and the lows creates whole chemical shit storm in your body. That's perfect. Exactly. They're very well said French. That's why we become addicted. And we don't realize this, and this is why leaving is so hard too, because, and if they love bomb you back, they, future fake and all these promises. If you don't have a secure enough base from which to be able to resist so many people go back. Especially if you don't have the support, familial support, community support, expert support, and or you're lacking resources, be it money or housing. They starve you back or they, praise you back. So you escaped, you left. You built yourself back up. What are some of the things that you did, because when you leave this, you are not feeling great about yourself. You're not feeling hopeful or optimistic, you're feeling very confused. It's very disorienting especially as you start to peel back the layers and truly understand what you've experienced Healing isn't linear. Yeah. I remember thinking at first that I was a narcissist because we had become so codependent and enmeshed. That it was hard for me to delineate who I was from this entity. And I was thinking to myself, maybe I'm the problem. One of the things that saved me in that moment was I knew that I was a lot of things, but I was never a liar. Like I was always like an authentic person. To a fault. People who know me, even my clients, I curse and I'm just this real gritty person and nobody would ever accuse me of being like a fraud. So that was. That was very clarifying for me. And then I began to connect with my friends that were laughed. A lot of my friends did. They abandoned me, which was really hard. And I began to connect with those people and just one foot in front of the other, I started to love myself again. I started to put the pieces back together. I studied it. Beyond. I just was so curious, like how could people be this evil? I didn't know, I grew up in like the Sesame Street world of I thought everybody thought the way I did, that they were, as a matter of fact, as a social worker, for many years I was like, everybody can be rehabilitated. Yay. This kind of naive liberal, and after I went through this, I was like, I'm getting a gun. People are evil. This is crazy. It really turned everything for someone like me on its head, and I really struggled with that. It was a big thing, and I put that as the first line in my book actually. You really have to unhand this concept that people think similarly. They don't. Yeah, and that was a big pill. And that's the truth. Liars believe that everybody's lying. Cheaters believe that everybody's cheating, which is typically this type of personality. Whatever they project onto you because they truly believe that everybody thinks as disorderly as they do. And honest people tend to believe that people are honest. Kind. People tend to believe that people are genuinely kind. And you have to understand that. And I. I'm a pathological positive person, but I do since this since my eyes have been open personally as well as professionally, I've come to realize that a lot of people are wonderful. There's a lot of good people who are hurting and do things, but their intent is good, but there's also this undercurrent, this underbelly of people and they're they're truly monsters. And as a positive person, it's hard for me to actually say that, but I really don't believe that there's hope for these people of ever changing. We, we have to let go of, oh, they might change, yeah, no. They're so ingrained in their disordered behavior. Especially when they're adults, like they're 40 and they're 50, it would be very unlikely for them to ever do the hard work. Yeah. And my sense is that they like the way they are in their minds, they're winning, and we are certainly not doing enough to cultivate empathy in our societies right now. So they are in some ways winning. One out of four CEOs as a psychopath directly, they're not entirely wrong. They have a winning streak of sorts. Unfortunately. And so they have no interest in changing No for them. They get what they want. The end of day buy a hookup by crook, which is the average person is not willing to go those lengths to get what they would like. I would like to have lots of money, but I'm not willing to lie, steal, and cheat to get that money. Because at the end of the day, if I've hurt somebody, if I've taken their retirement to build my own retirement, then I have an issue. There's like an ethical, also like the joke is on them because that's not what real riches are. Real riches are the connections that you have with people. Yeah. Real riches are, beautiful symphonies and music and nature and all the things that they seek to destroy for their own gain. That's where the riches are. And so the laugh really is on them. They don't know that. Yeah. Because there's so tunnel visions thinking about, how to find the next nickel, but really. As somebody who's 52 years old and has seen money and has seen no money I would rather be in the middle of the projects listening to gospel music and having a grilled cheese than ever live in that dark house with that terrible energy ever again. So the laugh is really on them. They think they're winning. Winning. Yeah. And that's cute and fascinating, but like I said, the real riches are elsewhere. And that is really, I always, and I've posted about this before and I've discussed this with clients and my members, is they feel like they're winning, but they are never winning at life. You can strip me down, you can take all my money, and I'll always find happiness. And that's truly, I'm actually winning at life. Because they're nothing without their enablers and they're nothing without. Money. That truly is the identity. Whereas the average person, you and I for instance, take that all away from us and we'll still be able to find happiness. It's in the simple things. It's in like a blue sky and like sun and friends coming over and good music and good food and connection. They're always chasing the high that we naturally get.'cause people don't genuinely like them for who they are. They fall for who they pretend to be. Whereas we. You fall for people who you know are genuine and they fall for you because, she's she's intelligent and she's kind and she's hardworking. So we actually are winning at life. They might feel like, and we can let them feel that. That's just great. You just, you win at life in your own little way. But they're always unhappy. They had never get like full happiness. They'll, that will always evade them. Never. It's like love, like they never experience real, genuine love. Which true. I always say there's like a hole in the bucket. They can never get enough. Yeah. Cheeseburgers, cocaine, sex. They're constantly trying to feel something and to get a dopamine kick and Yeah, because they're vacant. Yeah. Barren creatures. And when you think of it that way. You can just keep your millions, you can keep whatever you think is fantastic, but you are always running, you're always trying to chase and also avoid yourself, right? So much of their addictions,'cause they're all addicts of some sort, right? They're always trying to outrun who they are and stay two steps ahead of, the reality of who they are. So you've created this life for yourself. Outside of this vortex of abuse do you have any tips or tricks or tools for people navigating this who are perhaps thinking of leaving or have left and are like, I just, I don't know how to build a life outside of this. I don't know how to climb out of this hole that I'm currently in. Yeah, I'm not gonna lie, it is a big hole and usually you may have to, hold your nose and jump in the water or jump off the cliff or rip the bandaid off because. You gotta get outta there. There are obviously reasons why people stay, including finances and children, and I honor that. But by and large, my advice is to run for your life to the extent that you can, and then pick up the pieces later in terms of divorce, co-parenting, et cetera. And it's messy. But you will have moments like when I got back into my little house. I remember having a fist fight with my curling irons because I was now out of the mansion and I was into my tiny little ranch and I was thrilled. I was like, I'd much rather, as I mentioned, be, in the middle of the projects there was nothing that could. Seduce me back. So you will have moments of just peace, like it just washes over you that you don't have to walk on eggshells. It almost feels like getting out of prison. It feels like getting out of jail. I felt like I won the lottery when I got out of that relationship. And then there were the moments of absolute hellish court experiences and stalking and all the things that I had to endure and many endure. But there were still those moments where I could have. The healing and it's not linear. It's three steps forward, two steps back, five steps forward, nine steps back. It's really jagged, this healing process. It's basically a trauma, so there's gonna be a lot of flashbacks and there's gonna be a lot of nightmares, and there's gonna be a lot of ruminating and confusion for a very long time. If you don't do the work, it'd probably take about four years to manage this if you do the work, maybe two, and I know that feels really overwhelming for some people, but if you don't do anything and you blink your eyes and it's 10 years fast forward the ghost of Christmas future, and you've done nothing, you will. Begin to decompensate and to the extent that you could die because it's gonna affect your immune system. You're gonna have high cortisol levels. So I always recommend leaving and even though it sucks to do I think hide your precious belongings, hide money, start to stash things away. Your everything is going to be destroyed by the narcissists on the way out. They don't generally mediate or play nice. They have to win and they can be very sadistic. So there's a lot of ways that you have to be mindful, but overall, generally I advise getting out of there. Yeah. And everybody does. So at their own time, you are your own personal. Best advocate, and you also know your own story, right? So pick a time that works for you. There's never gonna be an ideal time. There's always just there's never like an ideal time to have a baby or get divorced or even get married, but there's always I could, save up a little bit more. Or, I could have a bigger house before we start a family, or there's never an ideal time. But do your due diligence. If safety is an issue, obviously leave ASAP and then go back and do whatever you need to do. But if safety isn't an issue, it's not something on your radar right now. Create an exit strategy so that you, because most people, it takes about seven times where people are able to leave successfully, right? And that's because they leave and then are starved back, or they're future faked back in to the relationship. So if you are strategic about your leaving. Then hopefully you're able to actually stay gone. Now you rip the bandage, you do the hard thing, you create the ultimate boundary. You don't have to change. But I can no longer put up with this abusive behavior. So you do, you boo, and I'm just gonna extricate myself and I'm gonna create a life and it's gonna be hard. These people, abuse does not end just because of relationship ends. And this is also the erroneous belief that we have. When people split ways, egos might be bruised, you lick your ego and then you move on. An abuser really feels invested in you and they feel like they own you. So they've invested two years, 20 years, whatever it is, you are their personal, belonging and how dare you try to leave? Because abuse is always about power and control and it doesn't end just because of relationship Does. This isn't just No, as a matter of fact, it gets worse. Post-separation abuse is a very real thing. Abuse just morphs. And if you have children with this person, then it, they start to use your children and the system. So you become, everything becomes weaponized. They can and will weaponize everything. Having said that though, the only al other alternative is a stake. And that's really not a long-term alternative, as you said. Long-term, prolonged stress and your entire relationship is stressful. Even when there's good times, you know at any moment in the back of your mind when the good stuff is happening. This might, come to an end and it's gonna come to an end. And it could be right now, it could be in a day, it could be in a week. But I know that this is temporary. So even in the good times, you're still apprehensive because even though you don't understand the cycle of abuse just yet,'cause you're in it, you know it's gonna cycle back to something that you do or say or don't do or don't say is going to trigger them. So your entire relationship is stressful. You're not supposed to live under constant chronic stress that does damage from like a cellular level. Yeah. And so really escaping is your only option. Yeah. We, I learned in dialectical behavioral therapy that when you have a baseline. Of your mood or your disposition, and anytime you go up or feel happy, you actually don't like it. Human beings don't like anytime they move away from baseline, so whether it's up or down, the goal is to stay as close to baseline and as calm. As you can. And so this idea that you would feel elated, doesn't feel comfortable because you know that you're gonna, it's gonna not last forever. And so yeah, it really does a number on you and then a narcissist is watching you. Manage their abuse too. So they tend to have this dial, oh, you tolerated that. How about this? And it's a slow turn of the dial. And so by the time, 10 years has come and on and you look in the rear of your mirror, you really do not recognize yourself because of what you've endured. So it's a slow thing, but that dial does turn up. They're watching you. Oh you manage that. How about this now? Yeah. Because they constantly need a new hit. So they, yeah. What used to make you squirm and make you uncomfortable, you now tolerate so it's now just become like your baseline. And these people are constantly looking for a reaction from you. So if you're no longer reacting,'cause it's just your norm, to get up in the morning and be criticized, now they're gonna amplify that. And it's that's exactly right. That, that saying, where you put like a frog in a pot of water and you slowly turn up the heat, it won't know that it's being boiled alive until it's too late. That's exactly what happens to us. Yeah. We are the frog and the pot of water and the abuse slowly cranks up and revs up and ramps up. And they test your boundaries too. Oh, she, he or she, tolerated that well. How about this? For them it's a game. Yeah. I've had clients that have been smart enough to leave before having children, and it is the victory of my life. I can't even tell you the. Thrill of watching somebody just run for run, just get out. And then you're like, you did it. Because they don't know, as I mentioned, that this idea of trying to co-parent with a monster, how that will just destroy your entire being. So you know, the victory is if you're listening to this and you don't have kids with these people and you know that this is a narcissist, just trust me like. You are winning. You're the victor. It's your you have this. You're like, it reminds me sometimes of a bird in a cage, but the cage door is open. Yes, it's fly. You're free. But yeah, it's, maddening to watch from the outside in you, you see somebody being abused. That there's an escape, but they don't see the escape, right? Yeah. And you just hit the nail on the head. They have children for many reasons. One is a constant source of supply, children constantly try to get their parents to love them, by any means necessary. It also allows them to blend in with society. People who have children typically are regarded as, better people by society. The two parents picket fence and three children and a dog. That's oh, okay, I'm gonna trust you with my life savings because you have children on your desk right in this frame. And also it tethers the other person to this person for at least 18 years. It's the ultimate shackle. Once you have children with this person, it is a game changer because they will absolutely use the children to hurt you. Because if you're a loving person, how do you hurt a person who loves their children unconditionally? You hurt the children. Or you go after the children's attachment to this person. Yeah. So if you can pay heed to what Vanessa has just said, if you are thinking about having children you need to run right, because you can still live a life. I work with a lot of parents who are protective parents who have this as a counter parent. And they can still create lives, but it's so much work and it's constant trauma. Like you're constantly being, blindsided by the level that they will stoop to hurt you. That's right. So you can avoid that. Avoidance is the most ideal, which is also why we talk about this a lot, because if you can even just avoid this type of personality altogether in your life, be it, relationship or romantic, or you'll be so much better off because they literally drain you from the inside out. That's true. So thank you so much, Vanessa, for coming on from imparting your personal as well as your professional knowledge on people. You're not only a survivor, but you're also an expert. When you combine those two together, it's really powerful for people to see, okay, she did that, right? She came from the bottom. And, she's created a life that she loves despite, and you still, the abuse still is there. It can still rear its ugly head if he chooses to. If he's bored or he doesn't have a hit, so it's like not ending, but you've been able to compartmentalize it and still create a life that you love despite what he does or doesn't do. And that's really what this is about. It's learning to create lives that we love. Yeah, I agree. You have to be empowered. You have to trust yourself and surround yourself with people who get it. So thank you so much. I'm gonna put all the information on how you can contact Vanessa in the show notes. Thanks for listening to The Survivor's Playbook. If today's episode helped you feel less alone, more clear, more confident, more empowered and educated, please share it with someone else who might need it. And if you're ready for deeper support, you can join my monthly membership or grab free tools at chantalcontorinescoaching.com The link is in the show notes. Remember, your clarity is your power. Your calm is your resistance. You are not crazy. You are not alone. You are not powerless. Until next time, keep going. I see you.