Ep.11: Trauma bonds and their effects on children with Dr Nadine Macaluso

In this episode, I have the pleasure of talking to the amazing Dr. Nadine Macaluso, the ex wife of the Wolf of Wallstreet, therapist, author, and all around amazing human who turned her life completely around, with 2 young children, and with nothing to her name. 

We talk about trauma bonds and cognitive dissonance, and how these affect every survivor of narcissistic abuse, but also, children victims too. This episode is full of juicy tips and nuggets that I know are going to help you create a life you love, despite what the narcissist in your life does, or doesn't do. 

You can find Dr Nae on social media: @therealnadine. 

Visit: https://chantalcontorinescoaching.com to learn how to work with me.

Grab my free parenting resource:

https://chantalcontorinescoaching.myflodesk.com/free-how-to-guide

Join my monthly membership for protective parents: https://chantalcontorinescoaching.com/monthly-membership

Follow me on Instagram: @chantal.contorines.coaching

This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not legal advice.

Transcript

0:01

Welcome everybody to The Survivor's Playbook. I'm your host, Chantal Contorines,. This is the podcast for every survivor of abuse, if abusers can have a playbook, then why can't survivors also have a playbook so that you can learn to live your very best life, despite what the abuser in your life does or doesn't do. Today I'm extremely excited to have on the amazing Dr. Nadine Macaluso referred to by so many as Dr. Nae, and I'll be referring to her as Dr. Nae today. She is a woman who has built her life from the ground up as so many of us have, although many of us have not had movies made about us. She is a woman who wears so many hats. She is a trauma bond expert. She's a therapist. She went back to school after all of this to educate herself and then help empower other people. She's also the author of an amazing book called Run Like Hell, and for those who don't know her, although this is less important as she is incredible all on her own, she is the real life ex-wife of the Wolf of Wall Street. So Dr. Nadine, Dr. Nae, thank you so much for being here today and for taking time out of your full life to be here and to help people. Thank you so much for having me. I look forward to our conversation. So we, behind the scenes, we're already talking about the premise of this podcast, and this is really to empower people, which is why I think your work is. So impactful because you have various modalities. People can follow you for free on Instagram. They can work with you privately. They can join your group. They can also read your book and all these different ways and power people. And I have many clients and actual members who have read your book and it's really help them understand what they've gone through. And while you work with women, Dr. Nae is not saying this does not happen to men. She's not saying that simply saying, this is the group that she works with is women. But for any sort of abuse, this happens to both men and to both women, to adults, to children. It happens to the rich, it happens to the poor, everybody in between. Can you, because this is your area of expertise, define what a trauma bond is. Sure. Yeah. So a trauma bond is a toxic, dysfunctional relationship between two emotionally attached people, right? You're not gonna have a trauma bond with the barrister at Starbucks or the person that you dry cleaner, right? So you have to be emotionally attached to them, and it has a few distinguishing factors about what makes it so incredibly toxic. The first one is that the pathological partner wants power and control over their lover. Okay. So that's what really makes it different than just like a relationship where maybe couples fight a lot'cause of their attachment patterns, let's say, but it has to have two conditions for it to be a trauma bond. And the first one is a power imbalance. So the pathological person has the power. And so you say to yourself relationships don't start out unequal, right? How does somebody get power? So they get power? Because first of all. Just the very fact that you love them, right? People can have power over you because you love them. The second thing is that maybe they have more resources than you, and maybe you depend on those resources. Maybe you've stopped working or maybe you're incredibly emotionally dependent upon them. And then the third one, which was very true for me. Even though the first two were true too, was that my ex was very dominating, threatening, and intimidating, right? He was coercing me a lot, so you'll hear that term coercive control, and so I feared him, so he had power over me. The second thing is intermittent reinforc. So that's a behavioral pattern that the pathological person uses, where 70% of the time, they're cruel, they're controlling, they betray you, they exploit you, they gaslight you. But that 30% of the time when they're Romeo,'cause I call the two masks, Romeo and Dirty John, they're loving, they're generous, they're kind, they're helpful, right? That's the person you fall in love with. So that's really what a trauma bond is. It's power and control. It's a power imbalance, and it occurs because of this behavioral pattern of intermittent reinforcement, and that's really important for people to understand because there's so much victim shaming and blaming. Why did you stay? Why didn't you leave if you weren't happy? Why? But the trauma bond happens underneath it all. And that is the reinforcement. That is what keeps you attached. And like you said, the 70% is bad, but there's 30% good. And you're constantly chasing that good. You're constantly looking and they give you just enough glimmer, just enough hope to hang yourself on. And then you just keep going. And it's the cycles right. That's right. And that's one of the reasons I wrote my book was to break the stigma, because there is so much victim shaming and so much victim blaming, but this intermittent reinforcement is like the most addictive behavioral pattern. And it's been proven to be that way. When you want to condition people, when you give them unpredictable, responses. People become more addicted to that than if you were to constantly, consistently be kind or constantly consistently be unkind. So this is like science behind this is not like woo. This isn't we're just making this up. Has been around for a long time. And just look at gambling. It's the same thing. You said at the slot machine, right? Because maybe you're gonna hit the jackpot. Yes, and that's a perfect analogy because maybe you're gonna hit the jackpot with their behavior. And so much of our lives become about getting that jackpot, getting them to shine their light back on us. Especially after we've been, through the devaluation stage and the criticism and all of that. We're looking for that. Now, I know that you work primarily with victims, survivors who are women, and you talk a lot about the trauma bond as adults, from partner to partner. The trauma bond that, does it happen for children with their parents? So say their parent, because they actually meet the criteria, they have a power imbalance. That's right. Children can fear either, the withdrawal of love or the rage that might ensue if they don't comply. So the trauma bond actually explains so much of what, I work with protective parents, what they're dealing with. Children can be trauma bonded as well, of course. And I don't wanna say it's worse for them, but they are a lot more vulnerable than we are. Because they need the parent to survive. And this is the, like the key, so many people don't understand I love my child. Why don't they just, wanna be with me? Why do they wanna be with their abuser? But if you understand that children rely upon their parents for survival, and while it makes no sense to us as to why they would rely and work harder, right? A lot of children work so much harder with this coercively controlling parent, this abusive parent, to try to garner. That 30% of perfection that they're desperately looking for. Yes. And a lot of times they identify with the aggressor. Depending upon their temperament. And what that means is that, in a trauma bond, and I'm not saying this is true, but if two people look at the pathological person in the victim, the pathological perpetrator can seem more powerful, right? Yes. So the child. Might be like, oh, I don't wanna be weak. I wanna identify with the aggressor. And I see that happen quite often. And again, it's never the child's fault, right? The child is conditioned, and again, based upon their temperament, they might have been born with the more dominant temperament. They might be the first child that was born too. I've seen that happen where they identify with the aggressor. Yeah, absolutely. And I think the key thing that you said is. Even though it's not true, when children, look to their parents to lead them. And if there's one who is very aggressive, if they are the abusive, even if they're covert, not all abusers are obvious. They're not the overt, grandiose ones that we typically think of when we think of abusers. There are many who are very covert and very subtle, and it's a death by a million paper cuts, as I say. But they look to them and they see them as powerful because they come across as powerful so they align with this parent to secure safety, and we would too in society. We don't want to align ourselves with people who look like they're not going to be able to, protect us and to keep us safe. And so I think that's a really important distinction for parents who are listening to understand why children might behave this way. It's not a choice when there's coercion in the room. There is no choice. That's correct. Now, so you've answered one of my big questions because a lot of people understand perhaps what trauma bonds are between adults, but they don't understand that it can happen between an adult and a child, ergo a parent and a child. But now let's turn a little bit into your book because your book is such a tool for so many people, and it's a resource that's inexpensive and accessible, one of my favorite quotes from your book is"to educate women about the wolves wearing a mask of sanity that seduced them into the trauma bond." Yeah, because that's, that is so poignant and so real. We don't fall in love with the wolf. We fall in love with the sheep. That's right. And it really is a dynamic of seduction and coercion. And listen, if somebody came on the first date and was, drank 20 drinks and got sloppy and cursed us out, we would run like cow. But you know this, I say they're love cons, right? They're con artists and they present themselves as Romeo. Everything that you could ever want in a lover. They're charming, they're kind, they're magnanimous, and they're reading us to understand what we like and what we don't like. They're the ultimate predator. Yeah, so that they can manipulate us. And there's a term for twinning. I love tennis. You love tennis. Oh my God, you love sushi. I love sushi. Oh, you wanna go climb Mount Kilimanjaro? I wanna go climb Mount Kilimanjaro. And you're like, oh my God, I met a unicorn. How could this happen? Finally, somebody, and. Because they have created their entire existence is about reading people and picking up on their cues and finding out what makes us tick. And it might seem, especially if you've not met the right person yet, or you've, suffered at the hands of abusive parents or people in your life, and you meet this person who's actually listening to you, it seems like they're really in tuned with your needs and your wants and your desires. Yeah, but they're not actually doing that because they care. They're doing that. It's intel gathering to be used against you later on. Yeah. And when I work with women who have endured a trauma bond and we will, maybe we could go into cognitive dissonance, which is the confusion over whether later I in love, is he Romeo or is he dirty John? And what I say to them is, I'm gonna say something really painful to you and I want you to brace before I say it. The kindness, the love bombing. It was manipulation. Absolutely. A hundred percent. I totally concur. And that's, that's very heartbreaking, right? Because even after you've left, you're like but maybe part of it was male. But when I say to them, there's not Romeo and Dirty John. There was just one predatory, pathological partner who was manipulating you to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure, and status the whole time. And that's something very hard to come to terms with, and I understand that. That's another betrayal, and it's another, you have to peel back that layer too, because at least if you had that that, just that little soupcon, right? That, okay, they did actually love me. And they were actually loving, but they also had this bad side to them. And what you are saying, and I wholeheartedly agree I tell people all the time. Every part of this person is manipulation. So the good times and the bad, it's all manipulation. If they were bad all the time, you would've more than likely left earlier than you did. They give you, again, just enough hope and they create that cycle of abuse that, you know, intermittent reinforcement that creates the trauma bond that keeps you attached to them. And so it is, it's, and they, you use the perfect word. They are con artists. They're con men and con women, and they live their life this way. That's right. And their supply of choice happens to be people, but it often, also goes with status and money and power, I call them dopamine chasers. Absolutely. I say they want the money. They want the girl, they want the drug. They want the next dopamine hit. Yes. And that's why you can never be enough for them. Not because you're not enough, it's just because they need more and more. They're a bottomless pit. Yes. And these are temporary fixes, temporary highs, but they're constantly chasing their next high. Just like any addict. They are the ultimate addict and people are their addiction and what people give to them and do for them. It could be drugs, it could be sex pornography, it could be gambling, it doesn't matter. Whatever gets them high. Jumping out of planes, buying odds, doing a big manipulation, getting over on somebody. And you said something really important. It's not because you weren't enough, you were the right package. You just happened to be delivered to the wrong door. So you have all the right stuff. This person is not capable of love, they're not capable of connecting. And so once you realize that and you realize it actually had nothing to do with me and that really releases victims and survivors from feeling that shame of I did something wrong or I wasn't enough. If I had just done X, Y, and Z, maybe this person could have been better, especially when they move on, right? Because they love to discard people and move on to the next, and then they, it's all the highlight reels of this new their, they finally found their soulmate. And I don't know if you have this, but I have a lot of clients who come to me thinking, but they have found happiness. They have found, the new love of their life. And I'm like, no, they haven't. It's their next, that's just the next victim. I just say, women are like on a conveyor belt. I'll take you next next, next. And the thing I wanna touch about the shame is that, there is so much shame for the victim, right? Shame for falling for this, shame for staying. But also one of the main indicators, traits of a pathological person is they blame you for everything. So then, and if since you are a reflective person and they're not capable of insight and reflection, you're like, oh, maybe I did do that, or maybe if I would've done it differently. But again, the blame is a manipulation, another way to control you. And also what happens for this pathological person is anytime they feel a negative emotion, frustration, anger, sadness, they're not like I wonder why I'm feeling this. They're like, you are. Why I'm feeling it. Exactly right, and so that adds to the blame and shame. Because they are incapable of taking any accountability. They're never responsible for everything. They're their perpetual victim, and everybody else in life is the villain, right? It's never their fault that they got fired. It's never their fault. They got arrested. It's never their fault. That they got caught with a beer can and a car when they were driving. It's never their fault. They're always the victim and somebody else is always responsible. And if you're attached to one, you're oftentimes on the end of that. And that can be just also, super confusing, especially when you add in the gaslighting. And as you touched upon, the cognitive dissonance, and that's such an important key piece too, so let's explore that. So the cognitive dissonance is the glue of the trauma bond, right? A trauma bond cannot exist without cognitive dissonance. So cognitive dissonance is the mental confusion that you feel. When you're trying to reconcile who this person is and why it gets so tricky is because you have cognitive dissonance on three levels. So because of the Romeo and Dirty John mask, you have cognitive dissonance about them. Am I are? Wait, are they good or are they bad? And then you have cognitive dissonance about the relationship. Is it healthy or toxic? And then you have cognitive dissonance about yourself. Wait, am I crazy or are they crazy? So you have three different layers, six different thoughts, ping ponging around your brain all the time, and you never lands on an answer. And cognitive dissonance, what it does is it really zaps out your executive functioning, which is your functioning, that allows you to plan, to manage, to organize. The cognitive dissonance, a hundred percent of trauma bond victims have that symptom. Absolutely. A hundred percent. So many victims, so many survivors think that they're responsible, that they're not smart, that they were part of the problem, and I can tell you a hundred percent that is inaccurate. Abusers go after high functioning people. The higher you are, the smarter you are, the more loving, kind, generous, successful you are. The bigger the trophy you are for them. So they don't just go after weak, incapable people who don't feel good about themselves. They oftentimes go for people who actually do have, healthy self-esteem and feel good and are successful in their own rights and, are very capable. They don't, there's. Misconception in society that they only go for people who have already been abused. Or that don't feel good about themselves or have low self-esteem. Or who that are broken. Broken codependent. And the codependent. And that again, it's not the reality for so many people. So many people are incredibly smart, incredibly educated, be it, street smarts, or they've gone to school to educate themselves. I have an online community, it's called the So Thriver community, where women we run support groups. I teach my book as a course. 30% of them are therapists, right? People who know women. And this is because they are con artists, right? They know how to read a room. They know how to read a person, and they know how to, find out exactly what you love and what you don't love. And then they prey upon that. Yes. And then they. Curate this facade, right? Yes. So like you said, like the twinning. If you love, family, they love family. If you want six kids, they want six kids. Yeah. If believe in community and loyalty, they also believe in community and loyalty. And sometimes it feels too good to be true. But for so many of us, it sounds like I finally have found the right person. Correct. Correct. And that's what I say to everybody I work with because there is so much shame and self blame is that anybody and everyone can be conned by them because we're social beings. We're built for connection. We've been sold this myth of romantic love that someday a prince is gonna come in and save us. Happily ever after. But if you notice, we don't know what happens to Cinderella after she gets married. And I think that Disney has a lot to, answer for, our own temperament, if we're agreeable and conscientious people combined with culture combined with the con artist, it's a lot of multiple causality there that gets us into this trauma bond. It's the perfect storm. That doesn't mean we're not responsible for getting ourselves out and perpetuating our own healing. But the abuser is a hundred percent responsible for the abuse, the manipulation, the betrayal, and the gaslighting. A hundred percent. You did nothing to deserve this, right? Nothing. It wasn't, it was nothing that you did or didn't do. An abuser chose to abuse you. That's full stop and stop. What happens afterwards though, even though you're not responsible for the abuse and what you endured, you are responsible for your healing and for your education and your empowerment so that you can actually. Build back up just like you did, right? You were left with young children and it was a crazy story, right? So crazy that it became a movie. Yeah. And that was your reality. It was, and for me it was so strange because nobody was talking about trauma bonds. I was even in therapy the whole time I was with him, nobody was talking about narcissistic abuse. You thought of psychopaths as people in the movies. You didn't think of them as the person living next door or the person living in your house. So I had no idea. I just knew that what I was experiencing wasn't. Right I was very focused on my ex's drug addiction, I didn't really understand his personality pathology at that time, but I knew it was wrong and I got lucky. I always say this, my ex got arrested. That was great because when you're in this trauma bonds, he had so much money, so much power. I was so afraid to leave him for fear that he would take my children and say I was the drug addict. Yeah. Because I knew he was capable of anything. Now, I didn't understand post-separation abuse and DAVO and all this back then, but I was smart enough to know that could happen. But once he got arrested, the power imbalance shifted. So it was. Exactly what you needed. Even though it probably felt incredibly stressful in the moment. It did, but I was like, it was the universe. It was the universe giving you the out that you needed the escape.'Cause it was so clear he was bad and I was not. Albeit I'm not. I'm imperfect, but I'm not a pathological, predatory for individual. And so I knew once he got the ankle bracelet on and he was the government's problem, I was able to leave. And I always say, not everybody gets that lucky. The universe had your back. Yes. I know. It can make me cry still, my kids were three and five or two and four at the time, so they were so incredibly young and I knew I could save them and I did. My daughter's 32. She's a therapist with two babies. She lives 10 minutes away. My son's thriving. Can we maybe talk a little bit about that, because I know so many people listening, people that you work with. They always feel how do I build back up? How do I. Go from, you were at rock bottom there, rock, like literally rock bottom. You talk about how you left with nothing. Nothing. Yeah. And yet here you are. So you started off here after him. Yeah. Yes. And you're up here now. You're happily remarried. You have children who are thriving, you have grandchildren. You've created this exceptional life for yourself. Yeah. How did you start? Oh God. Let's go back. Yeah, I was young, so that was, I was 31, 32, so that helped me. But also remember I had been in therapy, right? So I had my sanity still. Looking at me, I probably didn't seem that same, but I did have some thread of ity in there. And what happened was that one of Jordan's sponsors called me up and said, Hey, Nadine, I know you're leaving Jordan, but I want to tell you that if you don't go to this. Found the center, you're gonna end up with the same guy. He's gonna come in a different shape and a different form. And I was like, oh no. Called the center. Checked myself in, and it's called the Coen Foundation. It's in Pennsylvania that a program called Breakthrough and it was only for five days, but it. Even aside from my therapy, I knew that I needed to change my way of thinking, and it really laid a foundation for me. I learned how to say no. Oh, that's a big one. Saying no. Yeah. Again, back then, you have to remember 25 years ago, nobody was talking about boundaries. Again, not even in my own therapy, I learned how to say no. I learned about my family of origin. So what happened was that instead of being focused on my ex.'cause you have to be obsessively focused on that person to survive. I turn the mirror back on me. What are my attachment patterns? Who am I? What do I need? And that started to lay the foundation for me to start to trust myself again. That's huge because when you're in an abusive relationship, be it partner or parent. You don't trust yourself. You rely a hundred percent on this person to tell you what way the wind is blowing, what color the sky is today. Everything about our lives revolves around this person and making them happy. That's right. So then, and so while I was in my marriage, I had started a maternity company. So I had a little maternity company. Where I had a website, a catalog, and this little store, and so I had some like sense of myself, right? Because we lose autonomy, we lose agency in this relationship. So even if you're listening to this and you're in this relationship, find something you can do that will help you build confidence outside of the relationship. That business was a struggle. It didn't really end up succeeding, but. I was using my mind for other things. And so then I stayed in therapy. Of course, I've been in therapy for 25 years, hence why I became a therapist. And I just kept, I went to Codependence S Anonymous, I sat in a basement every Tuesday. Not that I believe in codependency. But. It was a great tool for me back then, but I was really working on myself, having great self care, making sure I was exercising. And then about two years later, I met my current husband and he lived in California and I picked up my kids and I moved to California with him because Jordan had gotten arrested again because it's a long story, but he decided to charter a helicopter in Atlantic City with an ankle bracelet on. Good idea, bad decision after Bad decision. Yeah, bad decision. So the judge allowed me to move, and that was really the start of my fresh new life. But I had laid the foundation through so much work therapy and work. And it's unfair, like none of this is fair that we have to do all the work, but I have to. You have to. If you don't do the work, you're gonna stay stuck in the same patterns, the same thought processes, the same behaviors. That's right. None of this is just, but anytime there's an abuser in your life, fairness and justice go out the door and there's no justice, there's no justice. So then I moved and then I really had no desire. I was in the garment business. Okay? So I stayed in the garment business and then around 38, 37, I was meditating a lot.'cause that's what do in Los Angeles, she drank green juice, go to yoga, meditate. And I was like, I'm gonna go back to school to be a therapist because even though my therapist didn't teach me about anything, I believe that. She allowed me to manage my insane life and I believe it's what saved my life. And so I wanted to be of service, so I went back to school, got my master's. While I was getting my master's, my ex wrote the book, the Wolf of Wall Street.'cause he was in jail then as I was finishing my doctorate, I finished my doctorate in 2015, 2013, the movie came out I didn't really start to talk about the movie till 2019, 2020'cause I had nothing to say. But what happened was that. In my therapy practice, all these smart, bright, kind, beautiful women were coming in, coerced, controlled, abused, betrayed. And I said, what's happening? Are we in the 1950s? Like my mother was part of the feminist revolution in the seventies and I just thought this was crazy. That was when Harvey Weinstein and Jeffrey Epstein were also in the news a lot. So that's when I went back to the research and wrote, run like hell. And then I thought to myself, huh, I can use the movie. And so somebody, a young patient of mine said, you have to do TikTok. I said, I'm not doing TikTok. That's ridiculous. I'm 54. I did not wanna do it, but I did it. And we posted something about the wolf and my experience and it went viral. And then I started to put it all together as grandiose as it was. It's like most people's stories, but on steroids. Yes. Yeah. So it's, it's exceptional, which is why it was a movie, we can resonate so much with what you had to deal with, even though your insanity was, amplified. Yes. It's still the chaos and confusion abusers thrive on chaos and confusion. The average person is depleted, which is why they do it, but for them that's right. It fuels them. The chaos and the confusion. That's right. Dramatic and erratic. Yes. I just thought. And this is ironic because I never, when I was even gonna school for therapy, I never wanted a specialty. I don't want a specialty. I wanna treat everybody. Now, you would think it would've been obvious to me what my specialty would become, but I swear to God it was not. I'm so oblivious like that. I just allow life to really emerge and it. Merged like this. And then I said, how great is this? I get to take the most misogynistic movie on the planet and help women everywhere. And that is so powerful because I'm sure when the movie came out it was, a horrible thing, but you've managed to take it and turn it into something that empowers you and when the movie came out, luckily I had done so much work and I processed it ad nauseum, but it was so freaky, right? And I was just like, oh my God. Like here, I'm going to school for seven years and now you know, this crazy movie's coming out. But what happened was that they portrayed me fine. I just looked like a young mother who loved this crazy person, was trying to protect her kids, which was the truth. And people said, oh, you went through that and came out like this. Because I made them change my name. Yeah. Which I thought that was gonna matter, which of course it didn't, but I wanted some sense of agency, yeah, absolutely. And people were like, no, I'm gonna come to you. So it actually was a gift, even though at the time it probably doesn't feel like a gift. But this is again, the universe. And this is looking at the silver linings and reframing and shifting our perspective that, things don't happen to us. They happen for us. Yes so well said. Honestly, again, I wish I could say I had some grand scheme. You sound a lot like me. Things just happen. But I think maybe it's'cause you drink green juice and do meditation, right? Like things just sit, simmer and percolate and then they come. And I think, after I left Jordan, one of the ways that I did rebuild my life and I offered this to people is I learned the process of surrendering. Of doing the footwork, showing up, but then at some point you gotta surrender. And that's been a very important process of mine throughout my whole life. So when the movie came out, I was like, you know what? This is bigger than me. Clearly I had no idea what was gonna happen, but I did surrender and surrendering is a really important process. And really just what it means is that having acceptance and letting go of the outcome, honestly very zen. So my dad's a zen Buddhist and he meditates, and it's Oh, okay. You just surrender. So you focus less on what you can't control and just focus on what you can control. That's right. And really the only thing in life that you can control is you how, yeah, how, like what you do, how you show up. If you do the healing work or you don't do the healing work, if you educate yourself or you don't correct, nothing in life is controllable, but us really, at the end of the day. That's right. So I did that. That was part of my process. And then, I did that one TikTok and it just took on a life of its own. That was really it. TikTok and Instagram, they're for kids. They're for yout and I am an adult but it is a way to reach people, this is the thing, and that's the beauty of social media. There's a lot of bad stuff with social media, but there's a lot of good. And because of this, I think even five or 10 years ago, we weren't having these discussions. We weren't talking about narcissism. Now people are like narcissism. Everybody talks about narcissism and everyone's a narcissist. And that's not true, but for so long, so many people didn't know what they were experiencing, that there was an actual label to this. That's why I love social media because I get to reach so many people and validate so many people's experiences and educate them, right? I wanna take all my education from the ivory tower and really share it with people so they don't feel crazy. They don't feel so alone. And if we look at the statistics of femicide and how many women and children are really getting harmed. In their own homes. So many. And this is a worldwide issue. Yeah. And not just in America, in countries, everywhere. I get messages from people all over the world. And yes, the term narcissism is used way too much. And somebody once asked me, why do you think that is? And I said'cause I think pathological people cause so much harm. And I read some stat and I can't remember it, but was it was something about how one pathological person affects so many people around them. And so even if we say, I think the stats like 5% of the population is actually, being diagnosed. Yes. With this, that's still 5%, but I think the actual stats are higher because most pathological people do not go to therapy. They use it as some sort of I'm woke and look at me. You should date me, or you should marry me. Yes. Or if you're saying, Hey, this relationship is not working, they might offer therapy as an olive branch to try to reel you back in. But for a person to be diagnosed. With anything, they actually have to be vulnerable and open and honest. And so most abusers will never do that, will never go to therapy, and if they go to therapy, they're most likely not going to be open and honest. So I think the percentage of abusers out there is actually much higher than the 5%. I agree. I agree. I agree. Yeah. So now I get to use social media and this, crazy, insane movie to help and it's really a beautiful thing. It is because it's taking your own pain and being able to help other people and lead them. You're like the light that they're looking for and the, if she can do that Then maybe I can too. And you can. And this is the thing we are telling you that you absolutely can, you have to, take ownership for your healing. You have to take action. the first part of healing is doing the educational bit, right? Immersing yourself and all that. Free content online, books, podcasts, whatever, therapy coaching. And at some point you actually have to take that educational piece and turn that into. Action. And really start focusing on yourself, less on what they're doing and more on what, Hey, what can I do that's right to better my life? So to wrap this up, because there's so many nuggets in here, do you have any final pieces of advice for somebody who's listening, going, okay, how do I start? Yeah so the thing is that, first of all, I would just wanna say who was ever listening in this sort of situation. Abuse is always the faults of the abuser. But once you do have radical acceptance that you are in a trauma bond. And I know that's a very hard thing to actually come to terms with. There are a few things you need to do. First of all, if you're living with the person and you decide you're going to leave. You have to start to wear the mask. Don't ever let them see you coming and start to plan behind the scenes. Get an attorney, if not right. Get a trauma informed therapist, right? Join a community, go to a group, read a book, and start to really plan your escape without letting your abuser know. And they're very capable of sensing shifts in right. So you really have to act like everything's, okay. And what you need to do is tolerate the guilt of protecting yourself. Yeah. Because it feels like manipulation. I have a lot of people that I've helped leave and escape, and it's I feel like I'm manipulating'em. Yes, you might actually be manipulating them, but if you don't you won't be able to escape. So tolerate the guilt of protecting yourself and plan, in a very organized, methodical way. Don't tell everybody what you're doing. Tell one or two people or yourself, safe people that you a hundred percent know you can trust. And then I promise you, you can do it. Yeah. It's possible. If you're strategic, your success rate, a lot of people takes on average seven times before a person's able to leave successfully and stay gone.'Cause they reel you back in. They might financially starve you. So you have no choice but to go back. But if you are methodical about this and intentional and you save up and you do the work before you actually escape your chances of staying gone. Are so much higher, I have a woman who was in her trauma bond for 35 years, so I helped leave last week and it's going great. She got a temporary restraining order. The guns got moved from the house. He got removed from the house. So when you connect with the people that get it, like somebody like us? You need a proper guide, but it's possible. Yes. And look, how therapeutic and how cathartic for you. Yeah. To be able to actually say, I'm helping somebody do what I had to once do. Yeah. We learned the hard way so that you don't have to learn the hard way. This is the thing we learn through trial and error and now we've put that into practice so that you don't have to learn by trial and error the first time you do it. You can be, gone and stay gone. That's right. So thank you so very much for coming on today. There's so many nuggets here. I know that people are gonna listen to this and it's really gonna resonate with so many people and it's gonna help so many people, start taking action for themselves and reframing and refocusing on what they can control. Thank you so much Dr. Nae, for being here today. Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed our conversation. Thanks for listening to the Survivor's Playbook. If today's episode helped you feel less alone, more confident, more empowered, and more educated, please share it with somebody else who may also need this. And if you're ready for deeper support, you can join my monthly membership or grab free tools at my website. The links are all in the show notes. Remember, your clarity is your power. Your calm is your resistance. You are not crazy. You are not alone, and you are not powerless. Until next time, keep going. I see you.