Ep.17: Healing from, and creating boundaries with, a covert narcissistic mom- Terri's Story

This is such a great conversation with the amazing Terri of Character Outs Podcast, who was raised by a covert narcissistic mom. We dive into her childhood, her adulthood, and how she make the very hard, but also, very necessary decision to go no contact with a mom who manipulated her at every turn. Spoiler alert- Terri has created a life she loves with a husband she loves, and children she loves and even a grandchild. It turns out, you can in fact create a great life and break cycles of dysfunction and toxicity, so that your own children don't have to heal from their childhood. 

You can find Terri on social media: @characteroutspodcast and also listen to her amazing podcast on Apple and Spotify: Character Outs Podcast.

Visit: https://chantalcontorinescoaching.com to learn how to work with me.

Grab my free parenting resource:

https://chantalcontorinescoaching.myflodesk.com/free-how-to-guide

Join my monthly membership for protective parents: https://chantalcontorinescoaching.com/monthly-membership

Follow me on Instagram: @chantal.contorines.coaching

This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not legal advice.

Transcript

0:00

Welcome everybody to their survivor's Playbook. I am your host, Chantal Contorines, and this is the podcast for every survivor of abuse. If abusers can have a playbook, then why can't survivors also have a playbook so that you can learn to live the life you love despite what the abuser in your life does or doesn't do? And I'm so very excited to have on the amazing Terri, her and I connected. I think a few years back you might know Terri from Character Outs podcast. She herself has an amazing podcast that's out there. So Terri, thank you so much for being here today, for taking time out of your full life and full schedule. To be here to help people to gain insights and inspiration and stories of hope and tips, tricks, just it all. I really appreciate that. Aw. Thank you so much for having me, Chantalle. It's so great to see your face and finally connect and congratulations.'cause I know sometimes we can have these dreams and aspirations and sometimes we actually don't do it. And you did it. Congratulations. Took a lot of time. And I just feel like when you start out with the endeavor, it's not about money, it's not about fame, it's about helping people. And so I just wish you all the luck in the world. Thank you so much. And you're right. It's about helping people. Yeah. Which is why I think you started your podcast. So what made you, for those who don't know, Terri, why did you start this podcast? Wow. I. Vividly. Remember when. Pretty much the time that my mom discarded me and I had nobody. And as I, I went through that healing process trying to wrap my head around what had happened.'cause my mom had discarded me my whole life. But it was that final time where I hit the floor and went whew. And through the advice of my therapist, she actually, when I would share stories with her, she would say. Terri, that was abuse, right? And I would scoff, I'd be like, oh, take that back right this very second. I have never been sexually abused. I have never been beaten. And even it's the preconceived notions that we have of as to what abuse is and what, there's so much more to abuse than a raised hand or raised voice or sexual abuse. There's so much more to abuse. Those are all terrible forms. Yeah. But so many people experience other forms of abuse and don't label it as abuse because they don't understand what how could you, you're a child. This is your mom of all people. Exactly. And even when you are introducing your podcast and you're like, survivors of abuse, it still hits me. It hangs me in my heart and I thought, oh,'cause we were conditioned to be told you have a great life. You should see how other people have it. You should wanna go live in their house for a few minutes. And we're conditioned to, I was conditioned to that. My mother is my best friend. My brother is like a second father to me. You're so lucky, you're so blessed, blah, blah, blah. And when all of that shattered, I remember looking around and being alone and being, and saying to myself. Whew. What just happened? And I began to unpack and learn about corporate narcissism, learn about, the jargon associated with narcissism and toxic family, like the discarding, gaslighting. All of those terms were completely foreign to me. I had no vocabulary. Of course, they would be, you didn't grow up studying this even though you were actually a student of abuse. Yeah. Just because you were raised in a house with an abusive mom who was covert, and that's the hardest. Yeah, it's so subtle. Yeah, it's so insidious. And it's like a death by a billion paper cuts. It's every day. It's the micro and you're so lucky to have a roof over your head and food on the table and get to go to school and have clothes on your back. And this is the person, and it's your maternal bond that's supposed to be the most sacred bond. And when you don't have that, so how old were you when you started to actually connect the pieces? I was 38, 37. 38. And I was going through my divorce and my mother took his side, ended up kicking my kids and I out of her house. And so I was forced to be alone and grapple with everything and. During that time I had society and well-meaning friends. Even say, wait, I remember vividly one girl I worked with w was said. I said, yeah I don't talk to my mom. And even that, I don't talk to my mom. Excuse me. Can we Yeah. Grab hold of how we present ourselves, and this sounds so juvenile, but. She started it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. She, part of me, she kicked you out. Now you are merely responding to her abuse, but you feel like the onus is on you because you stopped talking to your mom. And we have that preconceived notion in society. We even have sayings. Blood is thicker than water. No, it's not. No, it's not. Not when there's abuse. And for a child, it doesn't matter if you're five, you're 15, 45 years old for a child. Not one who's been conditioned to align with an abusive parent against their other parent, but like a child who truly has gotten to the point where no matter what you do, it's simply never good enough. And to be, not only have a mom who's abusive, but to have a mom who sides with your ex, that is actually very common. More common than I would like to admit. It's very, it's. And it's such a trauma, it's such an act of betrayal. Your family is meant to support you through thick and thin, Ugh. Ah, that is adorable. Right? That is actually so cute. Oh, Chantal, you're so cute. So cute. And oddly enough, I was dating a narcissist. And again, no idea. I had no idea. And it was through that. When I really began to research narcissism that I was like, wait a second, my mom has some of these qualities. Wait a second. And then I found the book the Passive Aggressive Covert Narcissist, and it completely changed my path. And instead of feeling. Wow. What? I'm such a loser. Ugh, look at me. I don't talk to my mom. I don't talk to my brother. I'm such a loser. I became empowered and I was like, wait a second. Wait. So you're a cycle breaker. That's what you are. Yeah. And so I just remember that feeling of feeling so alone and lost and feeling like. I don't know what I'm doing. And that was, I began my therapist told me to journal and I thought, again, that's adorable. I'm not doing that. That's so cute. I journal, I get that same response from all of my clients. They're like, really? Chantal? I'm like, self-care and journaling are so important because you start, not only do you get all the stuff out, but you start to see patterns. Patterns start to emerge that are really hard to see. When you are in it, it's you. You can't see the forest for the trees. And I do think with trauma recovery, nobody wants to pick up a pen and write it down. No we just wanna live life and move on. We don't even wanna hate, that's in the, we just wanna move on. We wanna feel happy. And it can be difficult to pick up that pen and be like. Back in 1992, you know what I mean? Like it's hard. So I began writing and writing and next thing you know, I was gonna write a book and I had 12 chapters. And we learn everything cool from our kids, right? Yep. You don't have an original idea. Everything cool I do, if at all, comes from my kids. So my daughter had started a podcast and she's you should start a podcast. I'm like, okay, that's a great idea. So I did. And it's been so cathartic and healing, and I just talk about my journey. It started out talking about my story, and then I talk about our journey because, this is why I love your podcast, is because there is no playbook, right? There's no guide. We pretty much, are surrounded, we leave an abusive situation. Then we're thrown into a society who's shaming us for leaving that abusive situation. Because it's your mom. It's your dad. Oh, you don't talk to your family. Something must be wrong with you. This is always the onus. It's on you. Have you tried talking to them? Yeah. Fixing it. Yeah. Yeah. No, never thought about that. Wow. Never. Never once am my 38 years, did I ever think about doing something different? No. Whereas every part of your life was trying to contort and pretzel Correct. Shapeshift so that you could finally meet the expectations. Yeah. Finally hit like a home run and go, this is exactly what she's been looking for my whole life. Except then she'd be like, Nope, please not check. Yeah, and this is the goalpost. The goal posts are constantly shifting, so you're always living in a state of uncertainty. Is it gonna be enough today? Oh you got a hundred percent. Why didn't you get a hundred, 2%? Why didn't you get the two bonus points? Oh, you scored 10 goals. Why didn't you score 15? Yeah. Even when you I remember, again, this, these, there was times when, we would, I would reach out and try to fix it. She'd discard me again. I'd reach out, she'd discard me again. And during one of the times of reconnection, I said to me and I didn't even have the dragon back then. And I said, mom, you really hurt me. Like you would take your love away from me when I was a kid and not talk to me for days. She was just, I never did that, that never happened. I didn't do that. Or you were punished, like so that's what cracks me up about, again, some, well-meaning some have, not so well, not so good intentions for us, and they just wanna push their will or their ideologies or where they came from onto us. And it's no there's no rationalizing, there's no talking there's no. Explaining, there's no empathy on the other end. There's no realization on the other end. It's responsibility. Yeah. It's because you are at fault. They can never take accountability, and so everything that they do in life is to avoid that at all costs, which is why they project deflect dvo, just to avoid. Having to actually sit with themselves and go, Hey, maybe I'm the issue. All these people around me who are in therapy, it would be so easy. It'd be so easy, and if only they spent half the energy that they do, manipulating those around them into actually taking care of themselves. We do it all the time as a result of these interactions, these relationships that we have with these people. Oh yeah. And raising children. Constantly. It just occurred to me today, I was like, oh, I snapped at my 6-year-old yesterday.'cause I was just like frustrated. I was like, I didn't apologize. I have to, I today, I after school, I need to apologize to him today. Yeah. But, and that's the difference between an intentional parent. I always say to my to my clients and my members, we don't expect perfection. We are going to make mistakes, especially if you've come from an abusive home. This is part of your conditioning. This is how you learn, right? So the fact that you're here trying to change that, trying to break that cycle, trying to really connect and meet your children where they need to be met. Speaks of volumes. We, and if we do make mistakes, which all parents do, even if you're happily partnered and you have the best childhood upbringing and you have all the money in the world and support and nannies and caregivers around you, you are going to have bad days. This is just the human condition, but it's the act of saying sorry and not just saying those words.'cause words are cheap, talk is cheap as we know, but it's actually repairing Yeah. And getting down. So you, and turning around and saying, okay. How could I avoid that snap? And I, it was something so innocuous. I was crawling up. I had, was frustrated, I was tired and I didn't have to fix his TV at that very moment. And then I saw his bed was messing, so I'm fixing, and then I slipped on a spider web and then I was like, ah, and it's reflect yep, how can we not put ourselves in those situations? But, and I say all the time about my mother, I'm like. Poor kid. She can't get out of her own way. The only thing we all my children and my husband and I wanted to do was love her. Like poor kid. Yeah. Yeah. And yet here you are despite how you were raised, despite your upbringing or lack thereof, really. There was no love. There's no love in these types of relationships. Everything's very conditional. It's really, and it's so hard to wrap your head around, right? Yeah. Wow. Because as a parent, how much love do you have for your children? Yeah. So much like what wouldn't you do to, help your children, to support your children. To love. Yeah. Yeah. You are doing a lot of work not only for yourself, but also to ensure that you are present and engaged. I'm sure for your own children that you don't repeat cycles that you were taught, right? Like the stonewalling, the silent treatment, when they do something wrong, there's a difference between just needing some space because you're about to explode and you're just like, I need like a timeout. I need to go for 10 minutes, and I don't know what you need to do. Whatever it is that you need to do for 10 minutes. And then the silent treatment, which is. Such a painful thing to do to a child. And it was never like said to me, mommy needs a minute. It was cut and storm. When I need a minute, especially with my older children, my 6-year-old doesn't know, but my older children, I'm like, I need a minute. I love you so much. I need to process this. And even with and I'll say just like I do with my husband, I don't wanna say anything that I will regret. Yeah. I'm gonna step back. Yeah. And that is, but I love you so much. Yeah, we're always like, I just wanna throw this back in here. I, I love you so much. I'm not kicking you out. Like my love is still here. I just need to leave temporarily to just, calm down. And this is. Part of being a loving, engaged parent is communicating, communication is the foundation of any healthy relationship, right? Being able to be open and honest without being like massively hurtful. There's honest, and then there's because as you probably know and narcissistic parent is going to be honest, I was just being honest. I'm your mom. I just, if I don't tell you these things about you, who else is gonna tell you these things about you? Yeah but you have to weigh out, right? Yes, I can tell my child that I'm irritated by this or, we need to work on this behavior, but how much love have I given before, during, and after too, so that you can buffer this, statement with, on all sides by so much love. So your child doesn't always feel constantly criticized and put down they, they know that there's a healthy dose of love behind that as well. Yeah. Now as you were like, like a child, did you ever have any inclination that you were dealing in, that you were in a family that wasn't functional? Like with friends or like when you went to friends' houses? I have to say I was well aware of the dysfunction, but. My family would put a big emphasis on the fun. We were so poor, but isn't this fun? We're stealing toilet paper from the porta-potty. Or my mom would which looking back my father deserved it, but there was serious parental alienation. She would badmouth my father since the day I remember and she would make it like a bonding experience. Isn't this fun? I did. There were moments, especially when, like it, when I, no, honestly, Chantal like it, everything seemed totally normal. I had other friends growing up, but I think it was the mind conditioning of I'm your best friend. My mom would say to me, I'm your best friend. My best friend. Oh, aren't we best friends? And she would do things like, oh, do you wanna skip school and go to the beach? To be honest, I remember growing up thinking, I am so lucky. I have an older brother who loves me so much. I so quickly parroted back what was told to me. Yeah. I didn't realize the depth of the dysfunction until I was out of it. And then looking back when I was out and long, no contact because it takes. A lot of,'cause when you even look at a story or a situation with conditioned eyes, you still think it's normal. But then after you've stepped away for a minute and you see the players for really who they are, you look back at the story and think, oh, that was messed up. Oh, that really ha Oh, which is why they isolate you truthfully. That's what your mom was doing and she was reversing. There's no, I'm so against this whole, you're my best friend. No, I'm actually your parent first. Yeah. We can be best friends when you're like an adult that we can totally do. But in your childhood, I'm your parent. We're not besties. You should have, your peers should be your besties, but no, an abusive parent doesn't want that. They don't want connection outside of their dysfunction because if you have healthy connections, you are going to see differences. You're going to look at other people's households and go, Hey, wait a second. What I'm experiencing in my house. Is not normal, but I feel like she also got ahead of the game. And would badmouth that parent or house or child before I even got to their house. So I had a negative perception even going in and then, classic when I would get close to someone then would come the negative onslaught and the negative talk and then, of course I just wouldn't be allowed to go over there anymore or they wouldn't be allowed over to my house. And and that lasts well into adulthood. I would bring a new friend over. And when I had kids and she'd immediately, I don't like her. I don't like her. And the scary thing I've talked about this with my daughter, is that they're so smart. They're so smart and sometimes so calculating. They're so calculating and sometimes what they say is true. So on the one chance where she said so-and-so was a bad person and they turned out to be a bad person, whether it was. How we perceived them and then responded to them. Because of what we were told or not. They turned out to be a bad person and that was their, her opportunity to stand back and say, see, I told you. See, I'm right. Yeah. It validates just listen. I, and she would say, I know best. It's not that I'm smarter, it's that I'm older, okay. Don't trust me. I'm only, a mom of three and Right. But yeah, I'm still a child. What do I know? Nothing. Apparently not enough, but it would scare me and honestly make me think like I. What do I know? It would make you doubt yourself, which is the premise of abuse, right? You only can now rely on this one person. It's the premise of every cult. It's just the micro. Yeah. And so you isolate people, and that is classic abusers who are partners do that too. They don't have to say, you can't go to that person's house, but merely saying, oh. Wow. Just making it so uncomfortable and awkward that if you do go, you like that wasn't actually worth it, and you're already skewed yourself in terms of what you're about to walk into. It's classic abuse and it is meant to isolate you, and it is meant to make you a hundred percent solely reliant on this one person for all sources of information. Yeah. All trust and it's the gaslighting too. It makes you doubt yourself. Oh yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. That's the worst. It literally makes you doubt every part of who you are. You don't even trust your own instincts, your own, thoughts, your own patterns. You're like maybe they are right. And I always say, they give you. Two lies in one truth. And that one verifiable truth lends credibility to all their lies. That follow. So if you can anchor onto that one truth. Yeah. The sky is blue. My mom said the sky is blue, so everything else that she says must also be true. That's right. So you've been no contact? Yes. No contact with her since Wow. 20. It was COVID time, so 20. 20. Okay. Five years, almost six years. Yeah. And same with your brother? Same with my brother and my father has been, I'm bad at math. 21, 2, 3, 4. So no. Yes. Wait. I'm sorry I'm all over the book. No, time are so hard. My grad, my daughter graduated high school in 19, 20 20 due for so six years. Okay. My dad and stepmom have been six years. And my mom was before that, so it should, I think it's eight years Chantal. I don't know, but when you're like, long time when you're our eight, math is not mathing in my head right now. It's not. And also timelines. I'm like, I don't know that that was back then. Like it could be five years, it could be 10 years. It's all the same to me. No, because yes, that's right. I went no contact with my father before. There's been so many periods of in and out with my mother, but definitely no contact with my father and stepmom. And then of course I thought, oh now it's gonna be good'cause my bad, big, bad old father, meanwhile, father's outta my life and yeah. Yeah, my mother came after yeah, that's right. How was that for you? I, this is the part no child wants to go no contact with their parent. Like, how many, read it louder please. Like how many opportunities and chances did you give them to change, to step up, to own, up to what they've done, to acknowledge your feelings or your feelings. They don't have to be like the truth of the matter, but they're your feelings is how you felt. Yep. And just to acknowledge them. And say I'm sorry. Yeah. So I remember the last time she was standing in my kitchen and she had been staying at my house during COVID and it was bringing me a lot of anxiety. I was having, getting migraines and so I came to her, was living in my basement, and I came to her. I said, and oh I got on the phone with my therapist. I was so nervous, Chantal to go to my mom. I was 40 something years old, 42 years old. And I remember being so nervous, like saying to my therapist I can't I can't ask her when she's gonna leave. I can't. And my therapist was like, yes, you, I was crying. And so I was, took a deep breath and I opened my door and she's standing right there, of course, like listening. Were you napping? And I was like. Yeah, it was napping and she knew, I was like, no I was just on, on the phone with my therapist and so nervous and I was like, so I wanna talk to you. I love having you here, but I just was wondering if we could sit down tonight after dinner and we could have a glass of wine and we can talk about maybe getting a date on the calendar for when you're gonna go home. That's literally exactly how I said it to her. Like really tiptoeing around the issue. Oh, like trying to buffer and make it as, as palatable as humanly possible? Yeah, because. Listen, you knew there was gonna be a backlash. Why? I wanna smack these people in the faces who are like, oh we're cowards for walking away. We didn't try like bullshit. No, you tried everything. You can swear. Yeah we are past the point of no return swearing is psycho cathartic. Chantal 1.0 never swore Chantal 2.0 swears, and that's just the way that it is. Cheers. Yeah. She goes, oh good. I, it's time for me to go home. I realize that I wanna go home too. I'm like, huh, thank God. Whew, this went so, so much better than possible. Great. She went downstairs. All of a sudden I hear banging, slamming, and I, and she texts me from the basement and I'm upstairs. And I was like, first of all, why don't you come upstairs and we'll talk? I was like. What are you doing? So she's saying, my friend wants to come pick me up and, I'm packing, I'm leaving right now. So she comes upstairs and she's just seething. And I said, okay can you just, can we talk? And she has her phone like this. And I said, can you just put down your phone and talk, mom? Please just talk to me. I don't want you to go, I am not kicking you out. Those days are over. And I said, please, we're gonna break this cycle right now and you're gonna stay. So she. She kept gaslighting and picking up her phone, and then I started to get upset and I was like, you don't understand, like I'm thinking in my head, I'm pleading with you. I am once again trying to rationalize with you and bending for you please. And so she's gaslighting and I said to her, for the first time in my life, I'm like. It's not working. What you're doing is gaslighting me and it's not working, mom. So So stop. We're gonna break this right now and you're not gonna walk out that door. So she got a text from her friend. Her friend was at the door. I was like, okay, I'm gonna come out and say goodbye. She doesn't wanna see you. So her friend who watched me grow up, got out of the car, I grabbed her and hugged her, and I said, I didn't want her to leave. I'm so sorry. We were right in the middle of COVID. I'm like, i'm sorry, I am sorry I didn't, if I didn't want her to leave, so she gets in the car and I said, come on, I said to my kids, I said"help Gia load her baggage in the trunk". Okay. Put it in the trunk. So she didn't even say goodbye to my other two kids who were in the house. And she got in the car and I said, bye. I said, if you change your mind, you know we will be here for dinner. I have wine. And she drove away. I went into the house and I sat down on my couch and I immediately got an ocular migraine and I looked at my kids. My kids came down like little in the Wizard of Oz and they were like, we heard everything. I'm so sorry. She walked out on you again. And it was so validating for my adult children to hear. But then again I was like, I'm really sorry you had to hear that. It was really healing for my heart. And at that moment, Chantal, I said, you're never gonna do that to my children, and you are never gonna do that to me again. It ends today. Today, and she has called me twice. She was sending random gifts, which has now stopped and never again. Never again. As painful as that is also how healing for you to be able to just say no. You just can't treat me that way anymore. Yeah. And I think there's a another wonderful book. It didn't start with you didn't start with you". Yeah. I'm looking right at it. Mark Wallen. It didn't start with you and I think, to get to that point, you have to go through all of the trauma, and I say to people who call me and say, should I go no contact? I was like, I would never tell you to go no contact or not to go no contact. This is your journey, and you will know when you've had enough and if you need to go back five more times. Give yourself some grace. You're learning from each time that you're discarded and you try to heal it. It gives you strength along your journey of no contact.'cause you can look back and say, I know I did everything I could. I know I gave her all the empathy in the world. I gave her all the understanding. She had serious trauma. She had a terrible upbringing too, and I gave her all the grace in the world. But at some point, my children and my peace. Will Trump and they did. Yeah. And this is the thing, but you are a victim of abuse. And we talk about how on average, it takes a victim of abuse, seven times of trying to leave before they're actually able to successfully leave. And the same applies to a child. I mean going no contact, closing that door is not something that you ever wanted to do, which is why you kept giving her opportunity after opportunity to just show up. Yeah. And she made a choice. She made a choice to not change her behavior. And so you were left with no other, choice than to say, this is my boundary. Yeah, you don't have to change, but my boundary is here. If you're willing to change, you can perhaps come back in, but until then I can't. It's so unhealthy for you. And it affects every aspect of your life, your personal, your professional, how you show up for your children, because so much of your mind is thinking about this other person and. And taking care of that other person. The other person is priority. No one can come. Not your husband, not your children, not God. They are on a pedestal and they are all eyes must all always be on this person and all energy must be focused on making this person happy. That's right. So everything you do, I might still cry for her. My, I'm a grandmother, Chantal. My daughter had a baby. Oh my gosh. Congratulations. Thank you. And it was so emotional because I was like, this is so fucked up. It is because in a normal relationship, your mom would be there with you and she'd be experiencing the real joy, and so proud you and proud of your daughter. Thank you. And I really felt it as she had false labor three times. And I felt it each one of those times because as I, as a mom, I was so worried about my baby having a baby, and the only other person that I could have related to is my mom in that moment, and even going through menopause, I'm like, I guess I'll figure it out on my own, because who am I gonna talk to? And it's those moments that hit you that you're like. Fuck. Yeah. And then you cry. Yeah. Why? Why does it have to be, and then you go through the, why does it have to be this way? Because this happened and I did this. You have to go back to your playbook. Yeah. You have to play on wi on your podcast, whatever playbook that you wrote to get you out of that situation, to keep you on that path, to remind yourself of your worth. Just you have to revisit it because it's true. I still cry for her and my, of course, my, my dad. You always will, but I say too, it will never feel normal. I'm convinced that normal, I don't think it shouldn't feel normal. Yeah. Because you are a loving, empathetic person who, in an ideal world, would have parents who were able to show up for you the way that you need them to, which is not asking a lot. You're not asking them to, gift you and bequeath you, like riches. You're asking them to just love you unconditionally with no strings attached. Yeah. And just meet you where you need to be met and support you and truly validate you and, respect you and all the things that they're incapable of doing. Yeah. But despite that, look at where you are. You are a grandma. You're a mom, right? You have created a life that you love despite what your mom has done or what she's not done. So much of trauma is not just what happens to you it's what you don't get too. Yeah, it's true. And again, back to, why I started this podcast, it's to normalize going no contact with Toxic Family. Let everyone know that if you have to come to this difficult decision you're not a villain. And it's. Everyone who said things like, oh, you cut your mom off, your kids are gonna cut you off too. Just watch. And it's like that realization of, I look at my adult children, I'm like, oh wait, they love me. Wait a second. And I don't feel like it's anything I've, I haven't done anything special. It's but you have though, this is you're underestimating what you've, so you were raised in a dysfunctional family where you had to work for attention and affection is very easy to replicate that model. That is what you knew. Yeah. You were a cycle breaker. There are very few people who break that cycle who, choose to do life differently than the manipulation that you learned from an early age. That's all it is manipulation. We call it abuse, but it's manipulation that is abusive. You chose to be different for your kids, like you talked about repair. I did something wrong. I didn't actually apologize properly. When I see my child next I'm going to get down to his level and I'm going to apologize. That is something that you were never modeled. Chantal I'm gonna Venmo you. I didn't know this was gonna be a therapy session. What the hell? But it's true. You need to acknowledge the fact that you did something that most people, you are no different than your mom- We haven't gone into that. But you touched upon the fact that she, had a very unhappy childhood. So did you, even though you thought it was a happy childhood'cause, knew no differently, it was not a happy childhood. You are no different than her, but you are because you've changed how you show up for the people in your life. You've done the hard work, and never underestimate if there are more people like you, we'd have less to talk about, right? There'd be less need for people like us to talk about this, to normalize this.'cause this is the abnormal, it shouldn't be normal, but it is because it happens to so many people. So if more people did the work, went to, consistent therapy, I think everybody should be in therapy. Find, like a therapist that you connect with and truly can be vulnerable with. And we all have trauma to unpack. You've done the work. And your children are reaping the benefit and your grandchildren will, and the buck stopped with you. Yeah. Yep. And thank you so much for normalizing all these stories because truly as as a survivor, you've been told to protect the family and don't talk and no one will believe you anyway. But under the rug we don't talk about this stuff. We have to present to the outside world as a perfect family with a picket fence and a golden retriever and 2.5 children and, yeah. And that is bullshit. Yep. I think there's far more abuse that happens and we just don't know. We have an idea as to what abuse looks like and sounds like. But still, if there's no physical abuse, if there's no active name calling and yelling, people don't understand that there's so many ways to abuse a person without ever doing those things. Yeah. Yep. So true. And that visceral feeling that you get. Even, when my husband and I fight and I'm like, you're gonna leave, you're gonna leave. You're gonna leave me. You're gonna leave me. I'm gonna kicked out. Yeah. Fear that grips you? Yeah. Because that's what you experience as a child. Yeah. From your primary caregiver. How would that ever truly go away? I'm sure you've done a lot of work, so it's not like your go-to, but it's still right. It's still that. Yeah. And then you can decompress and probably breathe a sigh of relief and go actually, he's different. Or then your messed up mind goes, you know what? I'm gonna get mad at you first. I'm gonna start, I'm gonna raise some hell around here.'Cause it's a little too peaceful. But that's, that sounds like a fun season, right? But that's also something that we have to talk about. Maybe not today, but that your body goes with what it knows. And so if you're raised in chaos, you oftentimes seek out chaos, not intentionally, but because it feels so weird. Yeah. Peace. And like true love feels awkward. It feels really uncomfortable. It feels unsettling. Yeah. It's what is this? I recently read too, trauma survivors. I'm sure you know this need to have constant noise. Wondered why I had to have the TV on all the time in music, and I need to be reading and writing a book and listening to music and watch TV all the same time and listening to your podcast. You know what I mean? It's like that overstimulation feels so normal. Yeah. Because this is what your body knows. Yeah, I know you have to go pick up a child. But I just wanted to thank you so much for being on here today. I'd love to have you on again. I feel like we could just keep talking. There's so much to unpack and talk about, and I think it's so helpful when people are able to be vulnerable. And that's what you've just been talking about, your story. It is not easy. Not everyone can do that, and we don't expect that. Everyone has to be comfortable. But I'm very thankful. I'm sure so many people are thankful that you have decided to be able to speak about what you endured so that you can help other people who are also navigating the uncertainty and the judgment. The criticism that we get from these people becomes our inner dialogue. And so it becomes so self-critical and so self judgmental, and also we doubt ourselves. Do I actually have good intentions? Am I just like this? Yes. Are my intentions pure or am I doing this because I'm trying to manipulate? So true. I struggle with that as a mom. Yeah. Really have to take a step back and think, what are my intentions right now? Yeah. And always go back what is my intention? Thank you so much. I just I hope that your podcast and all of the stories and the people that you have on your podcast and that you reach will just multiply and people can just find comfort in you. So thank you for putting yourself out there and asking these questions and putting your knowledge out there. I feel like I've been to therapy, so thank you. You've helped me. So thank you so much. But I'm also really thankful that you came on today and that you took time out to talk about your own story to help other people navigating this as well. Thanks so much, Terri. Thank you. Thank you for listening to The Survivor's Playbook. If today's episode helps you feel less alone, more confident, more empowered, more educated, please share it with someone else who may also need it. And if you're ready for deeper support, you can join my monthly membership or grab free tools on my website. All links are in my show notes. Remember, your clarity is your power. Your calm is your resistance. You are not crazy. You are not alone. And you are not powerless. Until next time, keep going. ICU.