Ep.21: Navigating Family Court with THE RIGHT STRATEGIES with Alex Mack

In this episode, I talk to the amazingly knowledgeable Alex Mack of NarcSurvivorAdvocate about how to navigate family court. You know I'm not a proponent of entering into family court, but when you have to, or are forced to by the super fun narcissist, you need someone like Alex Mack in your corner, giving you the right tools and strategies. This is a must listen for anyone navigating the dumpster fire that is family court. 

You can find her on social media @narcsurvivoradvocate or on her website: exodusstrategyconsultants.com

Visit: https://chantalcontorinescoaching.com to learn how to work with me.

Grab my free parenting resource:

https://chantalcontorinescoaching.myflodesk.com/free-how-to-guide

Join my monthly membership for protective parents: https://chantalcontorinescoaching.com/monthly-membership

Follow me on Instagram: @chantal.contorines.coaching

This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not legal advice.

Transcript

0:01

Welcome everybody to their Survivors Playbook. I'm your host, Chantal Contorines, and this is the podcast for every survivor of abuse. Abusers can have a playbook. Why can't survivors also have a playbook so that you can learn to live your very best lives despite what the abuser in your life does or doesn't do? And I'm so excited to have on the amazing Alex Mack. She runs an amazing Instagram page called Narc Survivor Advocate, and she is a survivor and a legal strategist who coaches abuse survivors to win in court. Court is a land mine just waiting to go off. Court can be so unpredictable because so much is in the air and out of our control. So thank you Alex so much for taking the time outta your full life. It's December. It is like the busiest time of year for most people, and we're like navigating a lot. So I really appreciate you taking the time to be here today. Of course. Thank you so much for having me on. It's my pleasure. And like you said, it's a busy season, especially for survivors, and so I think that, your timing was perfect in terms of when you wanted us to have this conversation, so thank you so much. Now, can you tell people about what you do and how you help survivors? Yeah. So basically what I do, so I have about 10 years experience in the legal field. I've worked in so many different areas of law from probate to family planning, to estates from family law. Criminal law. So basically what I do is I help survivors navigate the legal system because what I've found is that a lot of survivors have no idea what's going on. They don't understand all of the legal jargon. Most of the times a lot of them are self-represented. So I found that a lot of survivors need someone who's familiar with the legal system in terms of procedure as well as, what is it that the court is looking for. How can they help their attorneys to best represent them and things like that. So I found that there was a gap. And as a survivor myself, I thought that, I would be in a pretty good position to bridge that gap for survivors just to break things down for them, and walk with them as they go on this journey. And that's so needed, even those with lawyers. Here's the thing is it's a very rare lawyer who truly understands this form of abuse and truly understands coercive control and understands that just because a relationship ends doesn't mean the abuse ends. In fact, lucky for us, it morphs into the super fun post-separation abuse that all protective parents are having to navigate one way or another, Society tells us, you can't stay with an abuser. It doesn't matter what kind of abuse it is, be it physical or sexual or emotional, mental, psychological abuse, you can't stay. It's not healthy for you. It's not healthy for your children. People, get all the courage in their bodies that's left over and they do the hardest thing ever, and that is escaping their abuser only to find that there's really nobody on the other side to support them. And the court system typically is you know what, I hear what you're saying, but I think this person's still a fit parent. And just because they abused you doesn't mean that they're gonna abuse their children. Yeah. And it can be a very daunting place to find yourself in because there's so little resources for survivors who have done that really hard thing and have finally escaped, and now they find themselves unable. To navigate the system because it's not user friendly. It's really not. I can't tell you how many times I've been to court, to support my friends, in like filing of motions or responding to motions, and it's really daunting and it's really if you're, like, if you are a single parent, you can't bring your kids to court, like you have to find childcare. There's many things that we don't think about unless you've actually been there. And even lawyers, even well-intentioned lawyers don't oftentimes give their clients all the information because it's something that they do day in and day out. They don't think, oh, actually. It's just like it's their second home. The courthouse, the legal system is their second home. People are terrifying, right? Most survivors have never, dealt with the legal system, right? It's terrifying. So how do you help people? If a person, was to find themselves on the other end of separation, they've just left, is that the best time to contact you? I think most people contact me when they are at the point where they are either ready to file or, they're access filed and they're now trying to play catch up. Which is not really. The best position to be in. But usually I encourage people to reach out to, coaches or me. When you feel as though you are ready to actually file where you've actually been looking at attorneys or doing some sort of research, that would be the best time to reach out for what I like to call your Avengers. These are gonna be the people in your corner who are gonna make sure that your case runs as smoothly as. Could possibly run because as with these type of personality types, it's never gonna go smoothly. No, it's not gonna be easy. It's an uphill battle and a lot of times survivors aren't prepared for that side of things. Like you said, they think that once they get out of the relationship, okay, now we're gonna go to court, we're gonna get a divorce, or we're gonna split custody 50 50. And then the next thing they look, he's hiding assets. He wants sole custody and I'm just saying he could be a he or a she, but, and they're completely blindsided by this because they usually aren't prepared for what I call warfare of the legal system. And it really is. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. They, it is war on. It is game on for them. You've activated their worst fear and they are going to make you pay for having the audacity, even if they discarded you in the worst possible way. You moving on, you healing, you finding any modicum of happiness, you creating boundaries is gonna trigger them. And now you are public enemy number one. So a lot of times where I step in is I help you prepare for that first phase, which is usually where you are gathering your information and you are preparing the initial phase of your case, right? So if it's a divorce, for instance, we're talking about what kind of documents should I be looking for? Where should I be looking? What if I. Don't have access to our financial records. What are my options then? I would tell them, okay, when we get your attorney, we'll let your attorney know that they're gonna need to subpoena this bank, or they're gonna need to subpoena this person who might be holding the funds for your ex. So I help them with the, preparing for that initial phase as well as helping them to stay emotionally grounded throughout the process. When. A lot of my clients are tempted to go, I call it going off the deep end. I often say, you reach out to me, we'll spiral together, but we're not gonna spiral in your text message with your ex. Oh gosh, no. That's like the worst possible thing, right? No, and everything that I was just talking to somebody prior to this. Like right before you came on and I said, you cannot send anything. Do not write it out in a, like a fake email that you never send to them. Send it to me, send it to your bestie. But do every piece of information you give them will be used against you. It may not be now, but it will be used, it will be weaponized, it will be twisted. You've gotta lock that shit down. You've gotta hide your emotions. You have to be absolutely the best poker player you've ever been in your entire life. But yeah, I had a client, recently she sent these, she was in a, she was in a spiral. The divorce hadn't been filed and he filed, before she could file. So already she's feeling oh my gosh. So she was in this, date where she was just sending him these Rapid Tech rapid fire text messages back to back. She's I might as well be dead. And I'm just reading the text and I'm like, oh gosh. And I she's trying to explain it to me. She was like, I didn't really, I. I didn't really mean it, I'm just like, yeah, I know you didn't mean it. I know that, but he's definitely going to use that against you. Oh yeah. And sure enough, here comes an emergency petition for full custody because she's unstable and that is literally their go-to. Even if you are the most stable person, even if you give them no text messages that talk about instability or how you wanna end your life or how you're just too hard. They will manufacture instability and they will, oftentimes ensure that you have to go to court because you are no longer a safe parent. And using your children as pawns is their go-to. It's what they do best. Do you have. Any tips or tricks for those protective parents? So you've gone to court, you're divorced, it's official. You have everything in writing. But that doesn't end anything, right? It just continues. The abuse does morph. So you're like divorce, your assets have been split and you are more likely not going to have full. Financial disclosure, because they don't like to do that'cause they're above the law. But you have children and your children are going back and forth, and your children are suffering because just like you were abused, your children are also being abused, and now it's game on because you've activated your abuser and they are using your children. What do you tell people who come to you then? How do you help those parents? First we discuss what our legal options are. There are several ways that you can compel someone to do something. So I give them a general idea of what we can do next, or we start building a case. I know a lot of times survivors are very reactive, and they don't necessarily think long game. They think a lot of the times I need relief right now. So for instance, I had a client where He wasn't helping her with, the expenses. They're supposed to split 50 50 and he just wasn't doing it. I think maybe two times he hadn't done it. And I was like, listen, let's just wait. Let's let this rack up. You're gonna keep, and so I coached him with communication, how to document that this isn't just, he forgot this is a willful non-compliance with the court order, right? This is a pattern of behavior, So how do you document that? So you ask him for it, you email him for it, you send him the invoices, you are creating a paper trail. Not to act on right now necessarily, but for, again, like I said, the long game. I always say it, you're, you are playing the long game as a protective parent. You're playing the long game. You might lose some battles right now, but you're going to win the war. They've waged against you. Exactly. And now that you brought that up, that's a really good point. You have to learn how to pick your battles because if every battle you're showing up, decked out, ready to fight, you know you're gonna exhaust yourself. So I think it's really important for survivors to also learn how to take care of themselves in the process. Because. They will wear you out and the intention is to wear you out and wear you down. Absolutely. So you can't let them have that advantage. anything to do with the legal system typically exhaust an average person, this kind of stress, this uncertainty. So you, their goal is to create so much chaos and confusion that you just break. that you just tap out and say, I just can't do this anymore. And every fight. Fuels them. it is a temporary high because they never actually have long-term joy or happiness. But it's a temporary hit. It's ah, that's just really affected them. Yes. I'm victorious and we don't want them to feel that way. So you really do have to pick your battles and not everything is worth your fight. Sometimes you just have to lay down the rope and say, you know what? This is just not a battle that I wanna embark in right now. So a lot of times, like where there are modifications filed, like a lot of survivors, they're like, oh my gosh, I have to document everything. I have to put everything together. When I'm like, listen, if they file a modification, the burden is on them to prove why. This should be modified. That's their burden. Let them do their work. You just show up, prove where you've been consistent. Prove where things have not changed. Prove why you know the order or the status quo should remain like. Like I said, a lot of times survivors. Wanna fight every battle. And I think it's very important for them to learn how to pick their battles. I think that's the long game is how you win. And that's the thing. It is the long game. I always tell my clients, my members, followers, listeners, it's the long game. You are playing the long game. And for you to run an ultra marathon. You have to really pace yourself. You really have to ensure that you're well hydrated, that you're well nourished, that you go in, understanding that you have the right coaching and support, not only at the beginning, but throughout the entire ultra marathon. The same thing is applicable here, right? You need the right support to be able to navigate this. You need the right, knowledge and education to empower yourself so that you feel more confident.'cause what you just said right there. Someone who's lacking confidence, right? They're scared. Abusers condition you to fear them and that fear triggers you and you become reactive and you become impulsive. And you do things that you wouldn't normally do when you are in a regulated state. And they want that. They prey on that. 100%. And they know that losing your child is your worst fear. A protective parent would gladly forfeit every dollar, every asset, their house, their belongings, their cars, their pensions. If it meant that they could actually secure safety for their children. And they know this, which is why they always go after the children. They always do. Either by taking you to court and trying to, strip you of your parenting bit by bit or whole hog all of a sudden, or they turn children against a loving, protective parent. Why? Because children are what we love 100%. And you see it time and time again. And like you say, like when somebody threatens. Something that,'cause I have a son. And I know that if anything were to threaten him, it's either gonna be me or that thing and it's not gonna be me. So I 100% understand where, survivors are coming from when they are in this state. And so that's why, like you said, it's very important for them to surround themselves with the right people who can act as a sort of buffer or shield to prevent them from, making these missteps or burning out No. Or burning out. Or, just sending, doing anything that could that is not only, could jeopardize their case, but it's also very out of character for them. But, it fuels the, abuser's narrative and it doesn't really help them sometimes, but Yeah. At all, it doesn't help you at all. Because so many victims of abuse and survivors of abuse are financially hit you, you take a toll. Either they, get fired from their job or they quit their job, or they hide money, or they don't pay you your fair share. Or they pretend that they don't make as much as there's so many ways to financially abuse a person post-separation, which means that so many survivors. Don't have access. Even if they have money, they don't have the same access that they once had or should have. And so money is a big deal, but like I say to people, you will pay long term far more if you don't take care of yourself now. And that means hiring the best people you possibly can from the beginning. And it's a big investment, but literally it will save you long term emotionally, mentally, psychologically, physically, and also financially. I have a friend, you know who Yeah. Hired the best lawyer. Couldn't continue to afford the best lawyer. Fired. The best lawyer, hired a mediocre lawyer and has now gone back to the most expensive lawyer. And she's I just wish I had done that from the beginning. it would've saved me so much long term. Yeah, I hear that often too. the financial abuse is real and I definitely understand, that some survivors can't really afford, the best attorneys or, the support that they should be able to afford. A lot of them can't afford it. But like you said, in the long run, if you are going to invest your money in this support, then it's important to do so with the right people. Not just getting any attorney, like you said, getting the best if you possibly can, or at least someone who's trauma informed, who understands a little bit about personality disorders and high conflict individuals, surrounding yourself, getting a coach if you can't afford one. Therapists. I always recommend that every survivor who's about to enter the court system, get a therapist.'cause your lawyer is not your therapist. And they charge a lot more than a therapist. and at the end of the day, you're not really getting any therapy. No, you're not. A lot of the day you're gonna be worse off'cause you're gonna be frustrated That they don't get it. And also hiring a coach is so imperative and it feels like, how can I afford this? When I heard about a divorce coach through a friend, we're at school just waiting for our kids to come outta school and she's oh, after this I have my divorce coach. And I was like, divorce coaches, this is how the rich get divorced. They hire coaches what is that? And then sure enough, what did I do when I was going through my divorce? I hired a divorce coach because I actually did some research and I realized. By hiring this person, I would actually be saving so much time and money with my lawyer because, as opposed to going to my lawyer for every question and every query that I had, I could rely on my divorce coach to, impart that really important knowledge. So I actually used my lawyer just for what the lawyer's job was, which is to build a case and to protect my children. And that's the role of a coach. Your coach is supposed to act as that. They're supposed to stand in the gap basically. So when you wanna send your lawyer those. 10 emails a day, you send them to your coach instead and you guys filter it out and say, listen, we don't need six different examples of this one thing. We can just send them two or three. And then, that also reduces your bill in the long run, So you save costs as well. So for protective parents who are navigating the system, because abusers love to either threaten you with court if you don't comply with their every change or every request, or they file motion after motion, just for support because they have endless support and finances or they don't comply. they force you the survivor back into court because they're just not complying with your order. What do you tell those parents who are navigating any of those three areas? Because they're all very different. And sometimes an abuser will go from one to the next and they'll just it's just like a buffet of post-separation, legal abuse. So what would you say to those protective parents who are having to contend with that? What's your biggest tip or trick or strategy or piece of advice? I think, my biggest advice would be, that is something that you should expect, you should expect for court to become this tactic that is always going to be used against you, regardless of what you do or what you don't do. As long as you enforce boundaries or try to enforce boundaries, the default will be, I'm just gonna take you back to court, right? So if this is something that you expect, then you are better able to prepare for it and it doesn't catch you off guard. that's why it's always important that throughout the process, it can be, daunting. To have to live like this for the rest of your life or the 18 years that you have to co-parent with this person. But it's always important to maintain a system that kind of always ensures that the record is straight, right? If you and your co-parent get into some sort of dispute where you try to enforce a boundary, they don't like your boundary, they wanna take you to court. You already have a system in place where, okay, when it's time for court, I'm ready. You should never be trying to, create this record kind of last minute, it should always be an anticipation of the next fight because there is gonna be a next fight. And it can be over something as trivial as, the pickup on drop off time, or it could be something more serious, but, so you should always be in a state of readiness. And so that's why it's also important to have some sort of system in place where you are actively tracking, those major things that come up and do not rely on your memory. People think, oh, this is a really big one. I'm gonna remember this. It's so big. And you know what? Time erases the details and you need the details. You need to be in focus. Not like out focus. You need to be focused on the specifics who, what, when, where, what happened, as much facts as possible. And sometimes those very journals that you keep can become evidence themselves, because they prove your state of mind at a particular time. So even if you just keep a book and you're just recording things, if you're like me, I like paper and pen. Me too. So I like to write things down. So you just keep a little notebook. And it could be, it doesn't have to be anything elaborate. It could be date. What happened. What was the outcome? And that's it. So that way when it is time for war, you're not scrambling trying to, prepare. you can pick up your little book, your spreadsheet and be prepared to. Ensure that the record is clear and you're not having to backpedal and create this data. You just have the data. It's something that you do every day, every other day, every third day. And so you can actually stand up and say, your Honor, on 16 occasions, my co-parent, was tardy or didn't comply, or didn't pay. it's so important to have the documentation and just like you said, if you can anticipate, then you can mitigate. And if you can't mitigate, then you litigate. And it also, it's action. It's something that you can do. And when we focus on what we can do, what we can control. Our lives truly changed because so much of this process is outside of our control. We can't control our ex, we can't control the system. We can't control the judges, how our lawyers show up, but we can, we can control how we document what we document and how we present that documentation to our lawyers. And then we've done all that we can do, right? And then it's no longer in our hands that we've done the best that we possibly can to protect our children and to protect ourselves. So true. Alex, you are a wealth of information and I am so appreciative of you taking the time out of your day. So I'd love to have you on again, because I feel like we could just continue this conversation. But thank you so much for showing up today and for imparting your wisdom and your knowledge that people who are listening in are better equipped with the right tools, possibly the right strategies, and know who to reach out to when they need that extra support. Thanks for listening to The Survivor's Playbook. If today's episode helps you feel less alone, more confident, more empowered, more educated, please share it with somebody else who may also need it. And if you're ready for deeper support, you can join my monthly membership or grab free tools. All links are in my show notes. Remember, your clarity is your power. Your calm is your resistance. You are not crazy. You are not alone, and you are not powerless. Until next time, keep going. I see