Ep.23: Navigating the Legal Arena with Angela Jane Bates

In this episode, I talk with advocate (lawyer), mediator, parenting coordinator and advocate for children and adults, Angela Jane Bates. She gives us her top 5 tips for navigating this and we talk all things worldwide family court. She's worked in various areas throughout the world, and ended up in family law.

 She's not only a wealth of information and whip smart, but is also funny AF.

You can find her on social media @familylawyersa

Visit: https://chantalcontorinescoaching.com to learn how to work with me.

Grab my free parenting resource:

https://chantalcontorinescoaching.myflodesk.com/free-how-to-guide

Join my monthly membership for protective parents: https://chantalcontorinescoaching.com/monthly-membership

Follow me on Instagram: @chantal.contorines.coaching

This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not legal advice.

Transcript

0:01

Welcome everybody to The Survivor's Playbook. I'm your host, Chantal Contorines and this is the podcast for every survivor of abuse. If abusers can have a playbook, then why can't survivors also have a playbook so that you can learn to live a life you love despite what the abuser does or doesn't do? And I'm so very excited today to have the amazing Angela Jane Bates on. She is coming to us live from South Africa, she is a family lawyer, she's a mediator, and she's also a parenting coordinator. Thank you so much, Angela, for being on today to enlighten us, to give us some of your perspective because you deal in the legal. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so appreciative of this opportunity to speak with everyone and, I guess drawing on my personal experience, but also my experience of many of my clients, if we have to look at the survivor's playbook, where do you really start in these circumstances? I would say you start prior to anything happening really. Don't you agree? That would be ideal. That would be ideal. Which is why knowledge is so important, right? The more people understand that abuse can happen to anybody, it doesn't just happen to people who were raised in abusive households. It doesn't happen to the poor or the rich or a certain segment. It can happen to anybody irrespective of your color, your gender, your race, your culture, your religion, your socioeconomic status. It can literally happen to anybody. I work with billionaires. I work with people who are living paycheck to paycheck. I work with celebrities. I work with people who are stay at home parents and everybody in between. And you probably do as well, right? In your line of work. Absolutely. And that victims are some of the kindest people you'll ever meet. Some of the most generous, determined, hardworking, courageous. People you'll ever meet. I'm always so odd and I just wish that there was more people like this and less people on the other end. Those abusers that we've all encountered in our work and also personally as well as professionally. And it's just so important to have these conversations because if you can avoid this personality type altogether, your life will be so much better. Who you marry, who you have children with, really can either make you or it can break you. And people don't understand that until it's too late and it really is the most important decision of your life. I always say, if I knew what I know now, oh man, with the amount of wisdom, life experience, everything else that comes with it, I would've made very different choices. But at the end of the day, you live and learn and that is what life is about. But looking forward, and that's what I always try to do, I would say you really need a very solid plan of action. When you want to exit an abusive relationship because. Your abuse, especially if they're an COVID narcissist is very stealthy, has already planned everything well ahead of time. What I like to say is they reverse engineer. So this is their goal and they reverse how they're going to get there. And it's not obvious abuse, All abuse is horrible. They put on a wonderful act of who they're, and they're portrayed everything to be cosher. Okay? but how do you prove that? This is the thing with those coverts, how do you prove the abuse? Because it's not one incident, right? It's a death by a billion paper cuts and it's insidious and it's so hard to prove, at least if there's bruises on your body. I would say an Excel spreadsheet, a log sheet, as simply as that, I mean for court purposes. Because as clinical as it sounds when you get to court, and I've seen it in numerous cases that I've had where the survivors are so traumatized that they can't even piece together the facts. So what I say, I hand them very simple spreadsheet and I say, log every incident. Is it high, medium, low risk? Is it, when did it occur? What date did it occur? What evidence do you have? Copy and paste everything in that spreadsheet and keep a record of it, because every single day, literally have a journal. Have a personal journal, a yearly journal and write down every single incident that happens that is so vital in court. Cannot possibly, emphasize more this point that keeping a log book is absolutely fundamental. They're also apps nowadays that you can use. It's fundamental. Your goal is to prove a pattern of behavior. It's not a one off due to work stress. It's not because they had a bad day with their colleague or they lost their job, or they had a fight with their mom and dad. This is a pattern of behavior, and that's your job. And it can be very traumatic having to go through and write this stuff down and then go through and organize it so that it's a timeline and that you can prove, this is the financial abuse and this is, neglect of the children. This is communication, all those sorts of things can be very traumatic, but at the end of the day, it's also very empowering to be able to prove to yourself as well, because so much of abuse, destabilizes us and makes us doubt our own reality. And when you're dealing with those pesky little coverts, they're everything they do. They can say something and to the outside person, it just seems like a joke. It might be bad, like in bad taste oh, you should take up golf. Chantel, you are, you do nothing all day, but do yoga and like sleep. Could just be a joke. But what that's actually saying is you do nothing. You're so lazy and incapable that you have all this extra time in your day. And so when you actually start to look at this, you can actually prove to yourself, it wasn't just me. It wasn't in my head. I'm not making stuff up. I'm not being dramatic. I'm not being too sensitive. These weren't jokes. These were actually a pattern of insidious abuse meant to, break me down. Exactly. And I think the most insidious part of it is the secondary abuse from our children. And the fact that they are almost trauma bonded in certain situations with the abuser. Absolutely. Trauma bonded. They're absolutely, I've had children say to me in, interviews, they feel guilt tripped. And to saying certain things, and that's a clear sign for me that they're not in a safe environment as much as they're not beaten every day or there's no physical abuse. Control and psychological and emotional abuse can have everlasting effects in children, and I would actually venture to say that it's actually more traumatizing, absolutely. Again, all abuse is terrible, but at least when there's a mark, you have a physical mark on your body. Not only does it heal, but you also have evidence that somebody hit you. And we all know that hitting is wrong. Yelling is wrong name, calling is wrong, but when it doesn't leave a mark, but it leads invisible scars, that is actually so much harder. To actually come to terms with and heal from, especially when it's coming from a parent, you're so vulnerable. Children are so innocent and vulnerable, and they rely on their parents for protection and safety and love and affection. When one of them is incapable of actually loving them and uses them, abusers aren't bad all the time, They're bad, but they give you just enough, right? Just enough breadcrumbs to make you feel like you're getting a full meal and you're so starved for their attention and affection that when they give that to you, especially when you're a child, children are desperate for their parents' approval and love, but that doesn't ever go away. They don't stop loving their parent just because their parent is mean to them. They work harder to get that parent's attention and affection. Exactly. A hundred percent. I think Dr. I dunno if you know her, Dr. Coachella, who did, who wrote the Frame book with Amy Pollock. Yeah. She writes very good posts on trauma bonded children and has helped me personally in educating myself on how to better talk to children that are trauma bonded and that need assistance in dealing with those situations. Because often, in their school environment, they're dismissed when they undergo assessments. They're dismissed because the. Therapist isn't trauma informed, they don't understand it, and they dunno what to look for. And so many of these children present as, high achieving. They're not these children who are, not doing well in school. So many of these children are high achieving. They work hard, right? They perform hard because they have to, when they do well, they get modicum of affection and attention from this abusive parent. So there's these preconceived notions that children who are abused are the kids who, come in with behavioral issues and look a certain way and act a certain way. But, and that is true. There are some children who present that way, but there's so many children who present as very, hardworking. They pay attention. They say, yes, please, no thank you. They're courteous, they're kind. It's very difficult, and I think if you have uneducated people that don't understand or don't understand the dynamics of that kind of relationship, a controlling relationship, I hate to diagnose because I'm not a psychologist, I've done a lot of work quite recently really, with psychologists and understanding, applied psychology within the family law context. And what is quite evident is that, it's, there are so many different aspects. If you look at parental alienation as well, parental alienation is often abused in the children's courts. It's used as something to pathologize mothers because they're over-exaggerating abuse and all of this when they don't actually investigate proper abuse allegations. And then, it's completely turned around. If the key indicators are there, who's to say this? And here's the thing is that abusers weaponize say alienate, right? Isn't it clear? And abusers weaponize everything. So there are abusers who absolutely turn their children that it is the go-to of abusers is to turn their children. Against a loving, engaged, protective parent who's been historically engaged. This is not like a deadbeat parent who hasn't shown up. This is a parent who you know, the child has been bonded to and connected to, and they turn this child against them. And then there's the other side. If a protective parent dares mention abuse in the court system, the go-to immediately, as we know, every abuser cannot be accountable for their actions. instead of saying, Hey, you know what, I'm actually that's true. I am abusive. They vo. And the dvo is actually, I'm not abusive. That's not why my child wants to not come back to me. It's that you have turned my child against me. And as soon as that can of Worm is opened, you risk so much. And this is a thing, every family law attorney that I've spoken to says, please don't talk about abuse. And you gaslight your own clients because you do, because you understand, right? the fear is that once we go into court, if you mention abuse immediately it's gonna go into alleged exactly the same thing in numerous cases I've dealt with, where, I'm an advocate, so basically like a barrister in terms of, if you look at the UK system, so cases are referred to me by attorneys and often the attorneys. Because I don't deal directly with the clients, it's more of a second step later, more of a specialized, peruse of the case. They would advise their clients not to report abuse. And for me, that's shocking. Abuse is there. Abuse is abuse. And if a woman is raped, even if it's 10 years down the line, there's no prescription in South Africa. You can still prosecute the crime. When she's ready. If there's sufficient evidence, obviously if she's gone for a rape test and all the rest, same thing goes for abuse of children. And we also know that when you abuse a parent, you also abuse the child. Abuse doesn't exist in a vacuum, right? So a person who is abusive will abuse all the close people to them. They don't just abuse the parent. And when you're going through divorce and separation, post-separation is always the end result with every abuser. Why? Because abuse is about power and control and it doesn't exactly, just because your relationship legally ends doesn't mean their insatiable need for power and control Over you ends, it actually magnifies because now you've activated their abandonment wound. And so now they're gonna make you pay, they've waged war against you, and they will absolutely use your children to control you and to hurt you when they're using these children, they're abusing these children. Absolutely. And that needs to be recognized by the court. And next year I'm going to be doing a lot of work in terms of this in South Africa. I've already escalated to our, minister of Justice, the Department of Justice, department of Social Development, escalated to everybody that could hear. And I'll be taking quite a lump sum of cases to the constitutional court because it's a constitutional court issue really, there are gross violations of human rights within the family court system that needs to be recognized. And I think the worst thing is. the system itself to abuse people. And that's the ultimate betrayal. not only are you used by your partner, but now your ex-partner, is using the system designed to protect you, But it actually, oftentimes, more often than not, retraumatizes victims and survivors even more. Because now the system, we're all told do not stay in an abusive relationship. If you have children, it's your duty as a protective parent who loves your children to take your children out of this abusive relationship and leave this relationship. So then we do, and then we find that there's no safety nets around for us once we leave the system actually turns back on us and goes, actually, it's just a personality issue. Have you tried communicating in a different way? Maybe you guys should try parenting, co-parenting therapy together. Which please, if you're listening and you're just starting this, do not do anything with this person. If you can avoid doing any kind of co-parenting therapy, co-parenting coordination, because everything you say will be used against you. If you say, you know what, I just wanna be part of the children's lives and I wanna be included in creating their schedule, they are gonna take that and they're gonna weaponize that against you. Everything you say to this person, mediation can be such a risk. And that's actually, we spoke, I had a recent mediation seminar and they actually said in cases where there are clear indications of abuse and even coercive control, really? You cannot mediate the matter. We actually obtained a directive from our, department of Justice stating specifically that in domestic violence cases, those cases cannot be mediated. Can you imagine a victim with their perpetrator standing right next to them? Trauma re intimidated. They are in the process. But we also shouldn't have to go bankrupt trying to protect ourselves and our children. This is the catch, right? Exactly. This is where exactly once you enter into the courtroom, you just start to see every penny that you've ever saved in your life. Go down, right? And these people love to fight. They love and they fight dirty. They typically hire attorneys who, also fight dirty and don't play by the rules. Yes, you have ethics and you have codes of conduct, but just because you have them doesn't mean that everyone listens to them. And so you find that these people lie still and cheat and they partner with people who will lie still and cheat for them. And then they typically have their dysfunctional, toxic families who band together behind them and support them and uplift them. And then you have an abuser who's empowered, enabled, and emboldened to continue because they keep winning, because they have no scruples, they have no ethics, they have no morals, and they don't care. They don't care who gets hurt so long as they win. And then you have the honest person, the survivor. Who's just trying to get by, who's just trying to protect their children, who oftentimes does not appear to be rational and reasonable when they come into court. They're very emotional, right? Why are they emotional? Because they've, endured tremendous abuse at the hands of this person, and they're dealing with the protection of their children, right? There's nowhere else in the world where being a protective parent be you a, like a bear or a mom or a dad is considered a bad thing, right? When your child is injured, the protective parent, like the bear that comes in and swoops their baby, out from harm is, lauded as this, amazing, heroic, protective parent Here. It's actually, is it really abuse? Probably not. And you've just called your ex abuser, so now you've just lost your children. And that's why I think self representing litigants, I'm not sure what your terms are in Canada. I think call it pro se. Yes, pro se. And it's the same for you pro. And I know se I know that because I'm pro se Exactly. And I guess I was pro se the end of my own personal, but you, for so many people, it's so traumatic and the system is not well dying for the labor. They liquidate you well and they liquidate you, and just gonna, the court system even just going advocates, oh, everybody. But doing it yourself, psychologist, it's, you've gotta pay everyone along the spectrum. Which is why it occurred to me very shortly down the road. This is a system. It's not something that's real. And it was foreign to me because I wasn't a professional within the family court system, so I didn't understand divorce, mediation. Family court, all of these matters before I actually delved into it and studied it and understood it for four years, and then became an advocate, and then became a family mediator, and then became a parenting coordinator. My son, so before that I was in anti-money laundering and funny enough, anti and corruption. So it did occur to me along the way that something is not quite kosher within this court system. Because it's not following the rules there, there are procedural irregularities, clear procedural irregularities within every jurisdiction. I've analyzed a number of cases within the US as well in the uk. I'm also internationally qualified, so also in the European Union, and I've operated there with a couple of clients. The thing is. It's tragic because it's almost like it, it's lawless. Judges make these decisions that are binding and then children die. Because people who's one job, you have one job, your job is to protect these people. And then you allow these perpetrators, these abusers, to have access to these vulnerable children, unprotected. And I often tell my clients and my members, it's your protective parent and your house is on fire, and you escape your house, and you're outside of your house looking at your house, and your children are in your house and the system is telling you can't go back in and you're just watching your house burn with your children inside of it. And there's nothing you can do. You're not allowed to go back in. No. You would give your life for your children, as a mother. I would go in there and just put a blanket over me and Right. Rescue. Yeah. But the system makes it impossible for protective parents to actually do what? By very definition, we are, which is protect our children. And it seems so obvious, right to you and me. Coercive control is obvious when you look at the patterns, when you read these reports, when you talk to the people, You can see who has the power, right? Who is creating the issues, who keeps, creating chaos. It's not two to tango, it's not high conflict divorce. It's one person creates the the conflict and the chaos, and the other person is merely responding. Oftentimes though, and this is the, like the really hard part, they're reactive, they're easily triggered because they're so raw. They're still being actively abused. The system's abusing them, their ex is abusing them. They're flying monkeys. Their names have been smeared. Their children, are abusing them by proxy sometimes at this point, and they're really easily triggered and they come off. As part of the problem, I see so much communication, between victims and their exes, and they go, oh my goodness. Absolutely. I know what you're trying to say, but you are coming across as part of the issue. Exactly. Cut it off completely. I generally, recommend that all communication especially when there's pathological issues with one parent, it's mostly best that they only communicate through the parent to their children. Indirectly, I guess if that's the only possibility, because communicating with the actual perpetrator is a disaster zone and will be used against you. it's counterproductive. It's not, in the children's best interest when it comes to drop off, pick up, et cetera. That can be coordinated fairly abruptly with just one sentence, yeah. I am picking up a Thomas at two o'clock, but they have this entire novel, no, they have an entire novel, and people feel the need to justify themselves and to argue it's, this is a business transaction. It's part of the healing, it's part of the trauma. The thing is, I recently participated in a couple of seminars, mediators and advocates and attorneys, et cetera. And they were all very obviously because they hadn't gone through anything similar themselves. And they always see clients that say, oh, he's a narcissist, and they throw these words around and whatever, but most likely he has some kind of pathology along the way. But in any case, when you're dealing with people that have a certain person, type, you have to be almost trained in dealing with them. strategic, extremely savvy, conscientious, and it's exhausting. But it'll save you in the long run because, We have to become chess players. They're master chess players. They're thinking 20 steps in advance, and we're just trying to play catch up. this is why survivors need the right support. this is the difference between the clients that I see who come to me years after, who are barely holding on they're like, I just don't wanna do this anymore. I just wanna tap out. Versus those who've had the right support early on. even these abusers don't change. They're not gonna change their personality. They're not gonna see God. They're not gonna see the light. They're not gonna see the error of their ways and change for their children. The moment you can radically accept this, the earlier on in this relationship that you can accept that your ex is not gonna change. You can't control anything they do or don't do. And when you start to focus on what you can do, okay, the system, is corrupt. The system is not effective. It doesn't support you the way that it should. And that is so unfair and so unjust. And you grieve that and then you say, what can I do? What can I do within the system to the best of my ability to protect myself and my children? And you start to become empowered and you become more confident in your choices. But not every text message that comes in. Sends you into the spiral where you know, like your heart is palpitating, your stomach has dropped, and you're sweating and your hands are shaking and then once you press, send on your response, your 24 hours of just what kind of response am I gonna get back? You have to become your own hero in your own story. And a hero for your children too. Yes. Your children are looking to you, you have to teach them, you have to teach them those necessary skills. They're quite actually amazing apps out there these days, like Mind Ninja in Australia and all sorts that help children that are so completely dysregulated by the court process really. And actually that is my focal point for the next year. It's highlighting institutional abuse. Systemic abuse, because what parents are actually going through, and we are quite silly because we fighting with each other, father against mother, et cetera, et cetera. But what we actually fighting against is a system. If we actually think about it, it's a system that's controlling us, that's using us for our money, that's extracting everything from that. And that needs to be adjusted and tackled and reformed because if it doesn't, there will be no justice for children. This is just gonna continue. Because it is systemic and it's not just an issue in South Africa, it's not just an issue in Canada. It's a worldwide issue. I have clients from all over the world and they feel the fire on purpose. I know so many attorneys they that I've completely dissociated from that. Have they use clients of course, because it pays for their children's private schools. It pays for their beautiful cars, their trips, their new houses, their second houses, their third houses. It's a system. I don't understand how people can sleep at night knowing that they have not protected. But I think that's the difference between good people who think about others and how their actions impact others. And abusive personalities who literally are so self-centered, they just care about, lining their own, pockets, taking care of themselves. When you talk about lawyers like that, they're not that much different from these abusers who don't care about how their actions impact other people's. True. So long as they get what they want for these lawyers they are corrupt. That is corruption. That is unethical. It really is. Yes. But technically then you boil it down a fire between two parents and you. If the focal point really is the fact that the child's best interests are paramount, then why does it always work out that one parent's interest almost prevail over another in the case? It shouldn't be, win-lose. It should be win-win. If the child is the center, and it should always be that the child is the focal point, right? Exactly. But everything that it would be win-win, it would be mediation, basically. But because the system fuels the anger and the rage and I must win and then you still, it's very adversarial. The court is designed to be adversarial. It's a huge, it's a huge problem. And at the end of the day, children just suffer. I cannot imagine. What the children of today are going to be tomorrow or in 10 years to come. What kind of psychological issues they will suffer as a result of what they've gone through all these years. So we really need to be the change and really start activating internationally, reforms guidelines on, again, to come back to, the point of our whole discussion on, basically. A playbook of a survivor, how do you get out? I've heard of the most horrific situations you can possibly imagine in South Africa. Stalking, intimidation, people really take it to the extreme here. it's probably more played down in Canada as opposed to here. But here they'll hire hit men. They will stalk you, they will tap your car, they will follow you. They'll do anything to one. And even exposing the children to such situations, which is again, secondary abuse, yeah. So how do you get out of that situation? How do you even heal that situation? As like you're still being actively abused. Who's gone through all of that, there's an abuse on the other side that won't even acknowledge what they've done. How do you even find common ground and try to reconcile that situation? In South Africa we are well known for the Truth and Reconciliation Commission with apartheid and all the rest, but it's a difficult situation to reconcile. I can forgive what my abuser did to me for my son's sake, is he really accountable for his actions as he recognized what he did? That's, I think, what I struggle with most, and that's out of my control. So I think as a survivor, you've also gotta recognize, it's almost there's this famous verse from St. Francis, which goes, God grant me the wisdom to understand, what I can control and what I can't control to guide me in this whole process. And I think that is what keeps a lot of survivors sane. Like knowing that you cannot control your abuser. You can't control the system, but you just can't control what they do or don't do. How they show up for your children or don't you have zero control. There's nothing that you can do. You can't placate them. You can't play nice, How they treated you in the relationship is exactly how they're gonna treat you post separation. It might actually amplify and get worse because as I said earlier, you've activated their abandonment even if they discarded you in the worst possible way and left you, you moving on, you creating boundaries, you finding happiness and joy outside of them really activates them and they must control you at all costs. And so I think for survivors, there's so much outside of our control and that's the part that can be really unjust and really create so much resentment, and so much bitterness. But when you radically accept that there's certain things that you just can't change, we can still actively try to change the system, but while we're in the system right now, it's not changing. So you as a parent right now, for the next five to 10 years are going to have to probably play by the same playbook. So what can you do as a protective parent to, create a good life for your children, irrespective of what your ex does or doesn't do?'cause you can't control their parenting. It is not your job to focus on what your ex is doing. Honestly, you and you can, you have every right to, but when you focus on them, you're actually taking away from yourself. And when you're taking away from yourself, you're also not giving your full self to your children, right? So it's not your responsibility to ensure that your ex is a good parent. It is your job to be a good parent. So everything starts with you. When you focus on yourself, on your healing, on working within this very dysfunctional system, on radically accepting things that are really unacceptable, but saying, okay, this is the way that it is. I'm not saying that it's okay, but this is the reality. This is my reality. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. Now what can I do and how can I protect my child? How can I give my children the tools that they're gonna need? Because my abuser is also their abuser, but their abuser is their parent. And that's so much more confusing, and chaotic for children because we're adults. We understand that abuse exists in the world. We might not understand all the various forms of abuse, but we understand that people can be abusive, but children don't understand that their parents are abusive. They just don't. And children are very vulnerable, but they're also so unconditionally loving. So you're saying dogs and children are very vulnerable. And they're also incredibly loyal, right? So you can kick a dog and a dog will come back to you. You can kick a child. And I don't mean that literally. But you can yell at a child and they'll come back to you. Yeah. And they're also always more so to the abuser than the good, safe parent, it's a very difficult trauma. Bonded children in particular, I think are very difficult to deal with from a psychological perspective. I think they need definitely, highly specialized, trauma-informed, assistance, therapy. You also have to look at it from a macro to a micro. So what happens in this abusive dynamic from parent to child is the same thing that happens in a cult. And in a cult members are brainwashed. They're indoctrinated, right? And the same systems that apply in the cult also apply in these families and with these children, you have one central leader who everybody has to revere who's up on this pedestal. You control people's access to the outside world with rules. There's rules, there's scapegoats. If you dare go against the person or the institution, everybody bans against you. You control access to healthy people. It's us versus them, the outside world, outside of this cult is very dangerous, but we can protect you. And if you look at that, it's very hard to. On brainwash cult members, right? If you say to this person, Hey, you know what, this seems very, it really is, right? And but the same thing also applies. I think what helps is learning, very trauma-informed language with children. Educating yourself as a parent to communicate with the child. So if they express, for example, dad guilt trips me, you can say to them, it is not your responsibility to, accept dad's emotions or dad's your a child. It is not your responsibility take on adult emotions to figure you. exactly. upskilling, giving them the skills to adapt to those situations and to actually empower themselves through the process because. Never degrading the other parent.'cause that would be petty and childish. it also becomes very confusing, right? If they have one parent, the abusive parent who does actively disparage you, either covertly or overtly depending on their personality type. And then you have another parent, the protective parent who, tries to fight that will say, actually your dad or your mom is lying. That's not, they're like a cheat. Now they have two parents telling them two different things, and it becomes very confusing. Who do they believe? Our job as protective parents is to, they tend to be, yeah, they tend to actually be like almost in the sideline, try to be diplomatic between it. And it confuses the whole lot of them. Yeah. I think it's very damaging psychologically. We have to equip them with the tools, but I think you, if you can, as a strong protective parent, if you can sit with them and say, I hear what you're saying. But it's not your responsibility. Or you validate them. If they understand that word, yes. If you validate, reinforce, you give them the strength to go. Anybody can say something to me to maybe even hurt for example, something stupid. Oh, you ugly and your mom dresses you funny. Is that gonna affect me if I don't believe it myself? It's strengthening your children's minds to accept that in life there are people, and they need to discern that, and in that discernment they grow. So you're just basically facilitating their growth along the way and it's I would say, as part of the survival kind, don't ever play against the other parent. Stay in your own lane, keep your lane clean. Honestly, when you focus less on them and more on you, what can you do with a protective parent? What we are doing is arming our children with the proper tools for their tool belt. Unfortunately, it's to go into their other home. Their other home is abusive. Typically, your first bully is outside in the school yard, but when children have an abusive parent, their first bully is this abusive parent, our job to arm our children. Ideally, our children wouldn't have to deal with this parent at all. That would be the system actually doing its job. We are not there. Fair. Most of us have to deal with this abusive parent. This child has to deal with this abusive parent. So our job is to equip our children with the proper tools and strategies to be able to navigate their relationship with this parent. This is their parent for life. the more work we do early on, with critical thinking. Understanding what love really is, what love really looks like and feels like and sounds like versus what it doesn't, never disparaging the other pen'cause you're not focusing on them, you're focusing on you. So in your home, what does love look like? How does it feel? Does it feel like a warm blanket? Does it feel safe? Does it feel like you can just be yourself? And even if you tantrum your mom or your dad's still gonna love you and say, I understand you're having a hard day. How can I support you? It means genuinely apologizing when you've hurt somebody's feelings, even if you didn't mean to, but you did. And hold yourself accountable and say, what can I do to fix this? How can I repair? These are the things that we can do that are not only empowering for us, because it reminds us actually how vital our role is as protective parents, but also empowers our children. Because at some point these little children are going to have to be, brave, just like we were when we escaped our abusers. And they're going to have to escape this abusive relationship themselves. And you're arming them with the tools to be able to do that when they're ready, right? We can't say, okay when they're 12 little Johnny's gonna, say to his dad, I'd never wanna see you again. Because that's not how abusive dynamics No. Look, a child has a voice, but not a choice. Yeah. In South Africa, in terms of our children's act, we have section 10, 11, technically the court will take in consideration the voice, like to hear the child, but there are numerous other factors that need to be taken into consideration in terms of living space, housing, where the, grandparents, family members, support system, schooling. It's not just the voice of the child. So that would be completely wrong to tell your child, oh, at 10 you can choose where you want to look. What I've also seen, and I the abusive parent will say. Oh, your other parent wants you to choose, they brainwash them, into saying they must choose. And so what I see is the longer children have to cohabitate with an abusive parent, the more pressure there is on them to conform. Because they don't see like a way out. But our job as protective parents is to guide our children. I always say to my clients and my listeners, my members, my followers, you are playing the long game, right? This is not gonna be like an overnight fix. This is not gonna be a sprint. This is an ultra marathon that you didn't sign up for. But the seeds that you plant today are going to, grow and everything that you do as a protective parent may not seem in the moment that it's working. But you have to remember, your child is up against great pressure in this other home. It's low love, high pressure. So in your home, it has to be high love, low pressure. It doesn't mean that you don't have rules, it doesn't mean that you don't have boundaries or expectations, but it means that you really take the pressure off of your children who are under so much pressure with their other parent to align with them, to perform for them. And in your house, your children, they just need to rest their bodies. Just need to regulate back to a, calm, parasympathetic state. And this is the gift that you give your children. And you can only do this if you're doing the work for yourself, right? You need to put on your own oxygen mask first before you can put on your child's. If you are dysregulated, if you are reactive, if you're running on fumes, if there's no fuel left in your tank, how are you gonna be able to meet your children's needs? How are you gonna be able to, help them navigate this, you are gonna be rightfully so exhausted. And when you're exhausted, what do we know? As parents, when we're overwhelmed, exhausted, and anxious, we typically, blow our gasket. We yell, we become impatient. We don't have the energy to put into our children and they need us. And that's, I think the significant challenge within these situations is that there's so high pressure, especially when they go to court. That, that's why it's so detrimental going to court. And that's why I'm going to fight to the bitter end, the systemic abuse next year. Because I think, courts are just it's travesty of justice really. It doesn't, it's complete travesty of justice, and children don't benefit from it. Parents don't benefit from it. How can you as a parent remain regulated when you constantly under pressure to prepare court papers? If you pro se, for example, or even if you have an attorney, your attorney pitches up in court the day and hasn't prepared papers, what do you do about that? You're just gonna pay them for the day and get on with it, there's so much that you handling in terms of abuse of the system and your children and the exchanges, and it's a mess when it gets to that. We need to repair the system in the sense of, actual people coming to terms with who they are, repairing themselves. For their children, because a connected child is not a child that hugs and kisses their parent and, fakes their life. a connected child is a connected child to the connected parent. So you as a parent need to be connected to yourself for your child to feel regulated and safe and protected in your particular environment. And then you need to teach them the skills to survive the situation you're going through. I think the most vital thing in the system, which we totally disregarding in court because it's always one parent wins, one losers, but the system is designed to be adversarial, right. There's always a winner and there's always a loser. The system is not designed for collaboration. It's designed for competition. Abusers love competition. They love control, they have no issue lying. They lie all day, every day about everything to themselves, to the world. Their friends, their family, their loved ones. They have no issue lying in court. It's just one other stage for them to perform. this is the radical acceptance. We have to, realize that this is the reality right now, but what can we do? What are your parting tips or, hopeful nuggets for protective parents who are navigating this from your perspective, professionally, personally. Look, practically, you need to get organized. Number one, you need to have all your ducks in a row. it's extremely difficult because all your ducks are everywhere. some are flying, some are under the water, they're everywhere. But get a spreadsheet. And log, I'm sensing a theme here for you. And that's the spreadsheet. Apparently Angela is a fan of the spreadsheet. So let's do the spreadsheet and add, just log it, get a journal. What I'm saying is what I'm presented with 90% of the time is a case that I can't build because I don't have the information. I don't have dates, times, incidents, things that happen that I can really. And concretely outline that pattern. But if the parents are diligent enough to record, it's just a daily action really. It's like before you go to bed, write, what happened today? Did the exchange with your children go well, or did it go badly? What happened? Did Tom say something bad to you in front of the children It's all gonna be relevant in court. And this is fundamental from a documentary perspective. If you can take that relevant journal, if you've actually written a diary, you can take that to the judge and you can say, look, judge on this, and this day this happened. It repeats it again and again and again and again. You forming the pattern and you can definitely demonstrate coercive control. And in the long term, I wouldn't say you're gonna win because nobody wins in these kind of situations, but it'll definitely help your case. Because I find so many people disorganized, they don't have their papers in order, they don't care about recording the details, and then they just wanna talk and talk through consultations, that it's costing them money and time. And so many survivors use their lawyers as the be all and end all as their therapist, as their confidant. Your lawyer has one role, and their role is to advocate for you in the system. And th this is, and they hardly care, right? To be perfectly honest, they don't care. They want your money. They do the bare minimum to get to court. There are extremely few attorneys and advocates and barristers internationally that I would personally rely on. In my personal case, I went through 27 advocates and attorney. South Africa, and I know the system backwards. until I became one myself, because they take advantage and that's it's sad reality. They're not prepared. They don't come to court with the papers prepared, even if you give them everything in terms of your log books and everything else. But number one, tip, get organized. Number two, do therapy for yourself and then do therapy to learn how to be therapeutic to your children. Because that's really gonna get them through everything, because you've gotta learn a different language with your children. You are not parenting like the average parent is parenting. I always tell my. Clients, this, your parenting is not the average parenting manual that we can buy at the bookstore. Your parenting from a totally different vantage point. And average parenting advice simply does not apply here. And intention, friends and family who were like that was really disrespectful. You have to come hard, come down hard on your child. No. That is going to backfire. Because that's not trauma informed. And it doesn't take into context the coercive control that your children are actively experiencing. They're actively being abused themselves and are actually victims of abuse, whether or not it's acknowledged in the court system or not. If your ex is an abuser, they're abusing the children. And it doesn't have to be, over, it can be very covert, it can be very subtle. And so we have to help our children in ways that fall outside of parenting manuals and training. Exactly. I think that's your most fundamental role, as a parent or what they call protective parent, is that if you can equip yourself, and it's not a easy task, it's not just task to really go through. That process of learning the linguistic skills as well, the language, that you must use with your children, the delicacy of it to understand how they're feeling and all of that. And also to control yourself. So master yourself, then help your children, and then try your best to come to terms with your reality. if you can come to terms with your reality. But if you can come to pure acceptance and moving on from here to, what's tomorrow, then you can definitely build a better future for your children and you can definitely build a better pathway moving forward. And this is the thing, right? It's so very easy to feel helpless and hopeless within the system because nobody seems to understand. But when you. Actually educate yourself and you like, align yourself with the proper experts who can guide you, right? You need the right community support. Hundred percent. This is the difference between merely surviving and just getting by for 18 years until your children, are out of the system. But even still, the abuse continues. And also learning to thrive. The difference is the right support expert as well as community. When you have those two things, you can manage this, right? you can deal with your stress. It's not going to change. It doesn't get easier. It's like going to the gym. You go to the gym and you think, okay, I'm gonna lift weights. It's just gonna get easier. no, it doesn't get easier. You just get stronger. And it still hurts and it's still uncomfortable, and there's still growth and you're still in pain the next day. But you get stronger, you can lift heavier, you can do things that you weren't able to do before. This is the same sort of thing. And there's so much hope, there's so much darkness, but there's also so much that you can do as a protective parent to help not only yourself, but also your children navigate this. And we forget how powerful we are. Yes, abusers are incredibly powerful, but we're equally as powerful. But just in the opposite way, they're very detrimental. Whereas we are, there to really support our children and meet our children where they need to be met a hundred percent. We could probably talk forever, but now it's like getting closer to midnight for you. I've been, loving following your content through the years, even though I've been a bit MIA the last two years building, my career abroad and then coming back to South Africa and all the rest. But, I'll definitely be more active and yeah. I love your, I think number five, tip number five. Follow Chantal's profile and, laugh a little on a funny memes. We need more laughter. This is right. abuse robs you of your ability to be joyful and find humor and stuff, because life just becomes so serious when you're in survival mode. It's hard to think, but laughter is a balm. It really does soothe. And I'm not trying to minimize anyone's experience. And some people come in and they like, this is not funny. And I understand if you're at a certain place and you're healing, certain things are just not funny. I get that. Yeah. And I completely understand. No, you wouldn't think I've been through what I've been through. If you look at me right today. But I think don't also judge a book by its cover. Sometimes people have gone through some really tough things that are particularly unimaginable. But, they can have a different appearance to things. And definitely laughter is the best medicine. It really is. Honestly, it really in these circumstances, because they're so absurd. This is such an absurd thing that we shouldn't be having these conversations. This should not even be, no, we shouldn't be overanalyzing what we gonna talk to our children or how we're gonna send this text to our ex about our children. This shouldn't be like something that requires like coaching and therapy easier for our parents, right? Yeah. And, but here we are. And you need to find the right support, follow the right social media. And not every person on social media is the same. There are lots of snakes in there who pretend to, have the cure all. You need to be a discerning adult. You're very capable. If you are here and you're listening, you have survived stuff that most people, you are stronger than most people I know. And which also means you're really intelligent. This person has made you feel like you're not as capable, but you are. You just have to come back into truly understanding who you are, really feeling confident in yourself. And that really happens in a village, we become these isolated islands, but we need a village to survive this and thrive. You can have a good life. So now what? Create a life that you love. Do you want your child to just look back after 18 years and go, wow, my childhood was a shit show? No. You want them to say, I had fun with my mom and my dad, right? Like I, when I was with you, I was able to just be a kid. I was able to be playful. I was able to laugh and be spontaneous and also be messy, because kids are messy. They are dysregulated just by very nature because they're learning their little brains are learning. But you can and you should create a life that you love. And they want you to be isolated. Don't allow them to isolate you, because that's part of the strategy as well. There's sometimes they've got a legal strategy and the financial strategy. part of that is the isolation. So to make you feel like you, you are the crazy one. You're the one causing the trouble. It's all gaslighting really. The legal strategy is to bankrupt you with attorneys and advocates that are absolutely useless, financially, they don't want to provide for the children, even if they're in your care. You've got to, understand the issues and isolate them as issues that are external to you. That almost I wouldn't say don't affect your life, but that you can handle better by isolating the issues and tackling them one at a time. Don't be overwhelmed by all of that and, but definitely don't isolate yourself though, yes. Isolate the issues, not yourself. Yeah, exactly. So I think there's so much more that we can talk about, but thank you so much, Angela, for taking the time on New Year's Eve. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen. It's five hours for her, not even five hours, four hours, and 45 minutes before the countdown for her. And she's still here talking about abuse, because she's so passionate about helping survivors create lives that they love, despite what you are enduring right now because of your abuser. So thank you so much, Angela, for being here today. Tonight. You are a wonderful wealth of information and you're a powerhouse. We are powerful people. These little, tiny people with very fragile egos have to make us feel like we're not powerful, but we're way stronger than these people. We're way more powerful than them, right? We are. And that's it. thank you everybody for listening. Thank you Angela, for being here. I hope you have a wonderful New Year's, and I hope that 2026 is really your year that you really, get to expand and create change because obviously this is something that you're very passionate about, is creating actionable change within the system. It's a beautiful here ahead. It's the here of the horse. It's new beginnings. So I think there's a lot of prosperity and, new beginnings for all of us. And thank you so much Al, for the opportunity. I've really appreciated speaking with you and discussing all of this. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to The Survivor's Playbook. If today's episode helped you feel less alone, more confident, and more empowered and more educated, please share it with somebody else who may also need this. And if you're ready for deeper support, you can join my monthly membership or grab free tools at my website. All links are in my show notes. Remember, your clarity is your power. Your calm is your resistance. You are not crazy. You are not alone, and you are not powerless. Until next time, keep going. I see you.