Ep.31: "Co-Parenting" with a Narcissist- Chantal and Allison

In this episode, recorded by Allison K Dagney, where I was a guest on her podcast, Be A Better You, we talk all things co-parenting with an active counter parent. While the topic is so very serious, Allison and I had a lot of fun recording it. 

You can find her on socials: @allisonkdagney or on all major podcast distributors Be a Better You Podcast.

Visit: https://chantalcontorinescoaching.com to learn how to work with me. 

And find it all here at: https://linktr.ee/chantalcontorinescoaching

Follow me on Instagram: @chantal.contorines.coaching

This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not legal advice. 

Transcript

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Hello everyone. Welcome back to the Be A Better You podcast. I'm your host, Alison k Dagney, and today I have one of my favorite people on the podcast as a guest for you. She has been a guest in my community. I've been on her podcast, and I cannot wait to share this episode with you all today. Now I wanna give you the floor to introduce yourself, to tell everybody about who you are. Who you serve and what you do, because I think you're gonna say it way better than me, Thank you so much, Alison, for having me. so I am Chantal Contorines and this is a mouthful, so we'll get ready. I'm a coercive control co-parenting coach, and for those English bucks, it's a lot of alliteration right there. And so what I do is I help survivors who share children with their abusers learn to really create the best lives possible for themselves and their children, because unfortunately, when you share children with your abuser. The legal system, typically, not always, but 95% of the time forces you into a quote unquote co-parenting relationship with the person who did abuse you and continues to abuse you post-separation. I've experienced this, and I know so many of my listeners have experienced this too, so that's why I think this is gonna be such an important conversation because you have the expertise in this area. I have expertise in other areas, and I want this to be a supportive episode for anyone who has to deal with, and you call it parallel. Is it parallel parenting is what you call it? Yep. Yeah. So traditionally when you divorce your spouse and you have an ex, now you co-parent. That is the healthy, alternative to parenting is you co-parent, and that's typically when you have two average people who you know, might not like each other, but they love their children more than any kind of angst. And so they're typically able to brush aside any differences because they love their children so much and they put their ego aside and they deal with what their children need. Now if you are dealing with a coercive controller, an abuser, or a narcissist, those words are all interchangeable as far as I'm concerned. They are not able to co-parent. They are never able to put anybody first, other than themselves, including their own children's needs. They will actively, relentlessly, intentionally and strategically always counter parent. And so you can't co-parent with that. You would gladly co-parent, you will twist and, acquiesce and submit. Contort and pretzel to get your children's needs met. This person will always, no matter what you do, they're always going to block it. And so you must parallel parent, just like two children parallel play in the sandbox when they're three, they're in the same space, but there's really no interaction. That's what you are doing. So your house, your rules, their house, their rules, as horrible as that is. You don't share notes, you don't share expenses, you don't share birthdays, you don't go to parent teacher meetings together. You really try to be as separate as humanly possible to protect your piece and your children's piece. So how did you, could you tell us how did you get into this role that you're in and helping people and get to become this expert in this area? So I have a degree in English and psychology, and my dad's a psychologist. My mom's a teacher. So I came by this very honestly, prior to this, I was a teacher or I was an educator for 20 some odd years. I got divorced myself, about seven. Almost eight years ago, I had been partnered for 25 years. I had no idea this type of personality existed. I found out about divorce coaching from a friend outside of, our children's school. She was like, oh, I'm gonna go see my divorce coach after this. And I literally threw back my head and laughed like a donkey. And I was like, is this how the rich get divorced? They hire coaches. I had never heard of this. It was such a foreign concept to me. Fast forward a year later, I hired her divorce coach and he was pivotal in my healing and my clarity. And then, so I reeducated myself. I went back to school, became a divorce coach, and what I realized with all of my clients, because I deal with only survivors of abuse, so I don't deal with your typical run of the mill co-parenting issues, was that. I, as much as I loved helping my clients through their divorce, what I really was gravitating towards was helping them with their children. Which actually makes sense knowing what I used to do is I used to work with children. So makes sense that I've just pivoted my educational piece from helping children to helping parents help themselves and then their children. Okay, great. Thank you for explaining that and giving a little background. So you, you love that aspect of what you do? I do. You are a huge advocate for the kids, which I know. Yeah. and you have kids of your own. Yes. When we say children, we're not just talking about the little ones. If you're a parent, your children are your children, even if they're 70. Yeah. That's, like you don't ever stop being a parent. And you never stop being a protective parent. So I call you a protective parent. If you are a survivor of abuse and you share children with your abuser, you are a protective parent. By very definition. You are willing to protect your children. And you never stop being a parent. My child's almost 18, my youngest is almost 15. They're still my babies. Even though they both tower over me now. Yeah, I love that. And I have teenagers also and adult children. They're teen, adult. But they're always still my kids. They're my babies. And, as parents, all we want is the best for them. And that's we're gonna talk about today too. So what is the thing I would, I'd love to know, what is the thing that you see most often with people who come to you with these struggles? What is their biggest issue or the thing that they're struggling with the most? Most people, by the time they connect with me, they are feeling really powerless. They're feeling powerless, hopeless, and helpless to change anything. If you are listening and you have an abuser in your life, you know what I am saying without me having to even explain? Because abusers, especially when you have children, are relentless. They will never stop abusing you. And people think that when they escape a relationship with their abuser, it will all end. But just because a relationship ends does not mean the abuse end. It just morphs. It morphs into post-separation abuse, which most of my clients will say is oftentimes worse than the abuse that you experienced while in the relationship. Like when you were still placating them and trying to acquiesce and submit and you didn't have boundaries and you just said yes.'cause saying yes saved everybody so much heartache. And so now that you've made the ultimate, even if they've discarded you, you moving on. You healing, you not, catering to their every whim, really smacks of abandonment to them and so they tantrum. But unlike a cute toddler, it's not cute when your ex, tantrums. And so that's really everybody that comes to me. Their major concern is feeling that they don't have any avenue to help their children. And. The, all the work always revolves around educating, empowering the parent.'cause everything starts with you. If you don't have the right tools and the right knowledge, you can't effectively parent your children and you will not be parenting your children like an average parent does. Who doesn't have this kind of coercive controlling counter parent. Yeah, your parenting's gonna be very unique to the situation. So what is the first step to empowerment? Like people will be like, but how do I, I feel so powerless and they're so smart and they have all the money and they're doing all these things and I have no control. Like, how do you help them feel that empowerment? Okay, so first of all those things might be true. But they've also made you believe that they're really smart. So just because they've told you that they're smart doesn't actually mean they're smart. And the more distance you have, the more you might actually be able to see with more clarity who your ex truly is. I'm sure when you were in it, you thought that they were just the most wonderful person because they made you believe that, right? with healing comes clarity. And clarity is oftentimes just because you told me you were a genius doesn't mean you actually. Or genius. And in fact, how you behave is showing me that you're actually probably more on the idiot spectrum than on the men spectrum. Yeah. And and also they need you to feel powerless, right? Abusers, if you have left this type of relationship, if you've escaped, you've been conditioned to feel. Incapable of anything your entire world revolved and pivoted around this one person who was on this pedestal. That's how abusers operate. They need to make you feel powerless, hopeless, and helpless without them. And so your work is to really educate. Education is the key piece for me. Once you know what you're up against, once you know what you should be focusing on, and spoiler alert, the, what you should be focusing on is actually you. I know it's really easy to focus on what they're doing or not doing, how they're not meeting your children's needs, how they're manipulated, and that's an important part to understand what's happening in their home. But that's just the one part. Parts after that are actually about focusing on you, focusing on what you can control. That's the really hard part because there's so much of this that's outside of your control from the legal system to how your ex, manipulates or blindsides you, the flying monkeys. All these things are outside of your control, and that's maddening. It's anxiety inducing and it's incredibly stressful. But when you actually focus on yourself on what you can control, and again, spoiler alert, the only thing anybody. Life can ever control is yourself. You can't control your kids. You can't control your spouse, your dog, your mom, your dad, it's you. So you focus on yourself, on what you can do as a protective parent to educate yourself and empower yourself. And then when you do that, you naturally educate and empower your children. I love that and I echo that from the rooftops focus on you what can you control? It's, yeah, it's you. Yeah. And that's the thing too because if you had to go into a court situation and see your abuser for the first time and a really long time, and you are. Completely dysregulated completely. You are flooded with all of the hormones and all. You don't have your stuff together. You're not prepared. Like you're gonna feel even worse, and that's the only thing you can actually control. Yeah. Is you and how you show up yourself. Exactly. Yeah. For yourself, how you show up for your children. And here's the key piece, right? Your children only have one healthy adult in their life, and that is you. Their other parent is all sorts of dysfunctional and toxic and abusive and manipulative, right? So they are never gonna get anything met there. Now there might be good times. I like to say it's 80 20, so 80% of the time is horrible. 20% of the time is good. That goes for your children too. And it is just enough good every now and then to keep you hooked and working harder to get their approval, their attention, and their affection. But it's all abuse. Even the good times are manipulation. It's not genuine kindness because they're a good person. It's okay. I've overstepped my boundaries too many times and I need to get them back into, loving me and wanting to be part of my life. So I'm gonna, do something nice, bring them to Disney or buy them a car. Or take them on a shopping spree, throw a party for them. Or, post on social media about how proud of them I am. Or happy birthday baby. Something superficial. That's easy. If you are a money abuser. You can buy your kid a new car, and all of a sudden the kid's oh, and then you have this wonderful thing that I call the fog trifecta. And the fog trifecta is fear, obligation, and guilt. So you've just bought your child a gift and all of a sudden now the child feels obligated to do what you want, feels guilty if they don't do what you want. And fears is fearful of going against you because something might happen. Wow. The fog trifecta, fear obligation, and guilt. Every abuser operates on that premise, fear, obligation, and guilt. Anything they do for you now you feel obligated. You feel obligated to perform and to try to, get your needs met because they've just done something nice for you. And you also feel guilty. Oh, wow. Like they just, they sacrifice so much for me. Or you feel fearful that if you don't do what they want, they're gonna withdraw their affection from you. Yeah. So it's the fog trifecta. The fog like it because it puts you in a fog. Yep. Everything they do clearly you can't see clearly in a fog. Yep. And that's what they do, right? They create so much chaos and confusion that you can't see clearly through anything. Which is why geographical distance from your abuser is the easiest way to start to see more clearly, which is why typically, but not always, when children go off to university and college and they have to, they move out from underneath their abuser, they typically start to see more clearly through the fog trifecta. And through the chaos and the manipulation. Because they actually have some distance. It's the proximity that keeps you like confused. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it, the contrast creates clarity too, right? With a healthy parent versus an unhealthy parent, right? You start to see the contrast and that helps you get some clarity. As a kid, oh, mom's not guilting me. Mom's not getting angry with me, mom's. Actually really chill about this. But then when I'm at dad's, or vice versa, either way I use those interchangeably, but whichever parent it is, the unhealthy versus healthy, they start to see well, and they feel obliged, right? Like kids who feel safely and connected to their parent. Don't feel obliged to like to call them. They do'cause they want to. And you can see this in children who are at your house, they don't really wanna call their mom or dad who's abusive, but they feel obliged to because they've been guilted. Oh, I miss you so much when you're at your mom's house. Or, why didn't you call me? I was so worried about you. Or, so the child will call. Out of obligation and guilt and fear. Whereas with you, even if they don't always call you, especially if they have a coercively controlling parent in the background, listening to every conversation and grilling them after they talk to you, but they wanna talk to you they really do. and they don't do it out of obligation and fear or guilt. They do it because they actually, you make them feel good. It's how their body responds to hearing your voice. Yeah. That's why it's so important to go back to what you said before, focusing on you, because if you're healing yourself and you're working on you, and you're making sure that you're not repeating these old generational patterns from your parents, and you're being a healthy version for your kids, that's going to create a stronger connection between you and your kids no matter what. And then again, creating that contrast and get them out of the fog. And also you will not be as reactive if you are still, really raw and very reactive. You will do and say things that you are gonna regret later on, you will not be able to show up as your best parenting self. And children who are forced into a relationship with their abusive parent typically are the worst behaved with their protective parent. Not because you're a bad parent, but because they feel safe with you. So you're gonna get the. The really unfun version of your children more often than not, the meltdowns, the tantrums the rudeness, right? Like the anger. Yeah. All of this is gonna be like they bottle it up when they're with their abusive parent and they have to just like you did, right? You like suppress every emotion you have. The only emotion that's acceptable is happiness. Yes, please. Thank you so much. May I have more? Please. You are wonderful. Aye. I think you are the smartest person I've ever met in my entire life. You are so beautiful. You are so handsome, right? Children literally cannot say, I think you're wrong. I don't like how you're making me feel. I don't wanna do this right now. I don't wanna clean my room. I don't wanna pack lunches. I don't wanna walk the dog and clean up the poo. I just wanna be a kid. So they're perfectly behaved with this other parent and then unruly with you. And it's truly because you are actually an exceptional parent who they know loves them unconditionally no matter what. Wow. Okay, so this makes me think of another question, and I know the answer to this, but I, my audience doesn't, and I want you to say it in your magical way that you do and expressing this to everybody. But how do you navigate telling your children the truth about the other parent without disparaging them? So what you're gonna do is you're gonna sit them down and say your dad or your mom is an ass. That's exactly what you're gonna say. It doesn't matter if they're two or 20. I'm just kidding. You don't do that, right? Just kidding. What you actually do is you do not disparage the other parent, right? This is your child loves this person, irrespective of how this parent treats them. And if you disparage, then you're actually treating them exactly the way the other parent does. Now they have two parents saying horrible things about each other, and it puts the children smack dab in the middle of conflict. What you do. Is you model what's healthy and your children as they age will, see the difference. They will see the contrast between the two of you and when they come to you when they're ready with the questions.'cause they all do, right? Sometimes it happens earlier than others when they come to you with real questions. I do not believe in gaslighting our children, which is why I, I say do not tell your children that their other parent loves them. When you do that, you are equating abuse with love, and you're showing your children that when somebody abuses you, they can still love you. And as far as I'm concerned, if you abuse someone, you don't love them. And if you love somebody, you don't abuse them. And we never want the two to be conflated. And it's hard because a system kind of forces you to walk this tightrope, this limbo of. I can't disparage the other parent. I'm forced to force my children into see this other parent. Even if the kid is, tantruming on the way there going, I don't wanna see this person makes me feel so unsafe. And you have to say things like, but they love you. You're gonna have so much fun. so you don't say your parent loves them, but you don't say, Hey, your parent is a jerk and they're. Abusive. You show them what love really looks like and feels and sounds like you teach them how to think critically. You teach them how to pay attention to their instincts. We are all built, we all have built in instincts, but society and parents and dynamics, erode them from us. And our job as protective parents is to really have our children align their beliefs with how their gut feels. And the other parent's really gonna gaslight that out, that. Out of them, we're gonna teach them how people make them feel. So do you feel anxious after a certain visit with certain people? Why? Who is that? And you can talk about it through like their friends, right? All kids have friends and I'm sure you've had, kids, friends over and you're just like I don't really like that person. They're not treating my child very nicely and they're abusive. And so you can start having those discussions early on through peer dynamics and teachers and coaches and tutors and like maybe other family members. Trying to skirt away from their actual parent until they come to you with questions about this parent. And when they do, then you answer honestly, obviously in child appropriate ways, right? So you answer their question, depending on their age and their maturity, my 14-year-old might be more mature than your 14-year-old. So our conversations are gonna be different. Yeah. So you have to look at, you're not gonna say the same things to a 4-year-old if you are, like I have two children, and both children are totally different kids, same parents. Two totally different personalities. So my conversations with my son who's the eldest are different than my conversations with my daughter who's the youngest. Okay, love this answer. What do you do when the child comes back to you and is telling you. All the nasty things that the other parent has said about you. First of all, fantastic that your child trusts you so much that you are their safe parent. That it's literally like verbal diarrhea, all the bad stuff that they've had to suppress because they've not been able to tell this to the other parent. I don't like how you're making me feel. I don't like that you're yelling at me. All these things they've had to suppress. They still trust you with this stuff, right? So that's a kudos to you and you want to continue that because communication, open communication with your children both ways is going to save your children from having to keep secrets, because abuse can only thrive in secrecy. So that's the first thing is congratulations that your child's ability to communicate with you is still there. You validate that. I'm really sorry. That must have been really hard for you. Right Now, here's the thing. As a protective parent, as a parent, when somebody is hurting your child, your first inclination might be to address that with this person doing the harm, right? So you might wanna call up your ex and say, Hey, by the way, I heard that you called Susie F. I heard you call them some names heard that you didn't give them food'cause you called'em a fatty, but this person is never gonna change just because you call them out on their bad behavior. They're not gonna be like, oh, you're right Allison, I shouldn't have done that. Yeah, I'm never gonna do that again. They're not gonna apologize a little Susie for all this horrible stuff. What they will do though. Is you've now alerted them to the fact that your child is talking to you. And they cannot allow that. They can't allow abuse to be vocalized and verbalized outside of the abusive home dynamic. So what they're gonna do is they're gonna clamp down and double down on your children. So your children learn very quickly.'cause kids are smart, they have to adapt very quickly in abusive homes to not speak about what happens outside of that home. So you document that and if it's, enough stuff, you go to your lawyer, but you have to keep your children's confidences. So you validate, you support them, you give them the right stuff to be able to deal with it in your home. And if it does actually breach a certain level before you actually engage with the other parent through legal counsel, whatever, ensure that you let your children know that you're going to do so that they have a modicum of control. Because otherwise, if you, for instance, talk to your lawyer and your lawyer calls their lawyer and their lawyer calls them and your child has to go back to that house and they have no idea what they're walking into, they're not prepared for the backlash. Yeah. And this person is not oh, I don't wanna talk about this in front of my child. They are literally going to ensure that this child knows that what they've done is horrible. Sometimes that means the whole family stops talking to them for a week. Sometimes it means buying everybody else gifts. Like you've been quiet about the abuse, so here's a gift. And you never even have to say that's the covert way, right? So this child is why didn't I get the sport watch that my sisters and brothers got? But then they quickly learn, ah, when I tell mom something, this is what happens in dad's house. Yeah. Oh, and that is like such a. That's so heartbreaking. Oh, to think about that, that could happen. Oh yeah. Because you are just trying to protect your child. You are trying to advocate for them, but. Like you said, the system does not allow you to. Yeah. And this is the visual that I think is really impactful and also brings up a lot of tears for people, is you have escaped a burning house, right? Your house is burning, you've escaped, and you're outside of your house. Your children are still inside, and you're being told by the system that you're not allowed to go back in to rescue your kids. Oh, and that's what happened. Yeah. You have to legally allow your children to keep going back to abuse and, it's not safe for them. And abuse is so much more than just even raised voices or name calling or, throwing stuff or hitting. There's so many more ways to abuse people that are far more subtle, far more covert, and just as insidious. And you never have to raise your hand or your voice for it to be abuse. Wow. What a, that is a very sad image. Yeah. But so true. I remember thinking when I left my ex-husband some I, we didn't have to deal with the court system in this way with custody battles or like different things like that. There were other issues that we had to deal with. Yeah. It was always issues, but not always in court. But I didn't. I didn't feel good about them having to go back there.'cause it was like I got out and I don't have to deal with him. And there's a lot of guilt. Yes. And they have to. They have to deal with it. And then it was like I had to undo. All of the things that he was doing, the guilt trips and the manipulation and the, coercing them and, I, I had to then undo that. So I think what I'd like to ask you next has to do with the critical thinking aspect and, I think that's so important.'cause I can remember my kids. Telling me things and coming back and being like, yeah, dad did this, or he said that, or whatever. And then I would, instead of giving my opinion, I would ask the question. Never. Yeah. Yeah. And this is I literally, earlier today I had my masterclass, how to empower your child. We talk about critical thinking. I think I've told you, I, I have created a free, I don't ever do free stuff as we were talking about.'cause people just don't take it seriously. But the world needs more critical thinkers right now. Put a free masterclass all about critical thinking that's gonna be launching, because it's so important. We all need to be raising children who can think critically about what their parents say, about what their teachers say, their friends, their heads of state, their bosses, all this stuff. And so when your children come back saying stuff, don't ever counter it. Your first instant might be like, that's not true. That's a lie. I can't believe your dad said that, or your mom said that about me, or you or your aunt or your uncle. It is to stop. Take a deep breath if you need to, and then say, is that your reality? Is that your, perspective on this person? How do you feel about this person? So much of what the abuser does is to smear everything about you, who you are, your value, your worth, your beliefs, the people you hang out with, your new partner. Your parents, your work, your worth, and your children will come back parroting what they've heard about you, especially if they're younger, right? They're like daddy said that you're a horrible human being who cheated on him and ruined the whole family. Yeah, right? And you're like, oh, Johnny, you're only four. That's a big word, right? Yeah. And so you might wanna say that's not true. Your dad's lying. Now your kid has two adults that they love and trust, telling them two very different things. And so your child's gonna be even more confused. So if you stop. And pause, which is why healing and doing the work on yourself is so critical, because that might activate you. And if you're triggered, then you're not gonna be able to think clearly and meet your children where they need to be met. And these kids are messy just by design. Kids are messy. Just generally, how many times have you've been asked questions by kids, you're like, I was not expecting that at eight o'clock in the morning. I haven't even had my first cup of coffee yet. And then you add in coercion and kids come to you with all these things. Yeah. And you're not expecting this. You're blindsided. You ask them you stop and you ask them open-ended, reflective questions. Get them to think. You never have to disparage their parent if they can actually think critically for themselves. Yeah. And this is a skill that applies to so much in life, not just their home life. Unfortunately, their first bully is their other parent. But they're gonna meet people who give them, information as like fact when it's just their very skewed opinion. Yeah, I remember in the beginning, before I had done a lot of healing work and would get triggered by those kinds of comments because the accusations and like all that. But then I remember after doing a lot of the healing work and feeling really calm, one of my kids came to me and said dad said you don't love us. And I was like, oh. And I didn't have a reaction. I didn't, I was like what do you think about that? And then they were like you I think you love us. Like you act like you love us. And I'm like, there you go. Giving them the opportunity to think it through. Yeah. To think it through. Now if you've also partnered that with actually creating a love list, right? So like actually talking as a family, what love looks like, sounds and feels like now your kids actually have words on a board that actually show them each and each person's love language is different. So mine might be to feel safe. If I'm with you, I feel like I can just go, oh. And so if your children have been active in creating this board with all the different ways that make them feel loved, the words that people say, the actions that people do, then when they can actually compare that to what their dad said. So if their dad has said, your mom doesn't love you they can go, actually she does this. Then they can go, like literally through their list and go actually, my mom loves me. Yeah, look at this person. Okay, that person doesn't do any of this stuff, so maybe that's not love. Yeah. And I love what you said before too about not saying, oh, your per your parent, they love you. And I know that's a thing that people do because they want their kids to feel loved. It comes from a good place. But, and it's also like a place of desperation if you're being forced to send your children off to somebody that they don't want to go to and they're literally like having like a meltdown or they're like withdrawn and emotional, and they don't wanna go. But you're being forced, you're court ordered to. Force your children to see their abuser. You just wanna placate them. Yeah. You just wanna say, your dad loves you, your mom loves you, it's gonna be okay, and they love you. You're gonna have so much fun, right? And so it's really hard. You're put in this impossible position where you know that this person is not safe for your children. Your children might even be able to articulate that this person does not make them feel safe, but you're forced to force them into seeing this person. It's heartbreaking, so there's so much grief that protective parents have to deal with, and the more you heal, the less the grief, erupts. But it doesn't mean that it goes away, right? You like, can it like walks beside you? It just gets quieter and quieter. But it doesn't mean that every now and then you don't find yourself just sobbing going, man. I wish my children had a different childhood. I wish my children had the parent that they deserve. On the other hand, because it comes down to your children deserve, your children are worthy of unconditional love. It's this person isn't incapable of that for themselves or for anybody else in their lives. Has nothing to do with us, has nothing to do with our children and everything to do with this person is defective. Full stop. They don't have a love switch. And I think when you shift that, you're thinking to that and you start realizing that this kind of goes back to what we were talking about when you start off and you think you, you have that powerlessness inside of you because you think that they're so smart, or you think that they're, they know more than you, or they have more power or whatever that is, or they have more connections, or they come from like a moneyed family. Those kind, that kind of thinking will actually keep you disempowered. So the more that you continue to believe those things and think those things. That just keeps like self fulfilling prophecy, right? The more you think those negative thoughts, the more those negative thoughts appear. And then you are like see I just, I like, like I told you, my life sucks and then your life sucks. You go up and it's raining and you trip and you get into an accident, right? And this is hard. I'm not saying that any of this, all of this is impossible, right? It's impossibly difficult, but it's also still possibly. Very, you are able to actually change this stuff. Yeah. And it is hard. And it's really hard to do it alone. This is the thing is you do need the right support, the right experts, the right communities, the right knowledge and information to be able to change your ways, because they're never gonna change. This person is incapable of change. They might get worse actually with time. The only person in this dynamic capable of change is you. It's not fair. Again, the burden. Is on you again to pivot and change and alter how you show up and what you do. But that is the reality. And it is worth it. It is, yeah. Yes. Hard work pays off and anything in life, right? Studying really hard so you can come up like a neurosurgeon. Super difficult. A lot of sacrifice, a lot of things that you can, didn't get to do, but worth it because that was your goal. Going to the Olympics super hard. A lot of Olympians have sacrificed their childhoods to get there. If that was their goal, then it might have been worth it though. This is equally as hard and the end goal is what is your end goal? I always say to people, what is your end goal? So for like my community within my membership in 2026, like first day of January, I was like, what is your goal for this year? If your goal is peace, then what are you gonna do to attain that peace? And that changes how you might respond to your ex. You might actually give them more stuff than you would typically because your end goal is peace, not always to get what you really deserve. And so you give them stuff like you might lose some battles because you're like, you're trying to win the war, and the end goal of your war is to get more peace. Get peace, yeah. Yeah. That's great to have that intention and know, because otherwise you're just wandering aimlessly without a clue. And it's not gonna serve anyone. It's not gonna serve you, it's not gonna serve your kids. Having that clarity can really help you direct you. Yeah. I remember the first time I had to go to court and it was so nerve wracking and I was sick to my stomach. Oh, of course. And I kept thinking about how. I had this powerlessness feeling as well, and then I remember looking over and seeing my ex-husband, he was hunched over and looked really like a victim. It was such a shift in my mind in that moment.'cause I was like. He's pretending, he's acting. This isn't the real him. No. This is him pretending to be powerless. Yes. So that people will be like, oh, poor man. They are such actors. So some go in there and they're like broadcasted and they strut in they and. And others play the victim. Yeah. You can see, once you see them for who they are, you actually see everything they do is a lie. Like literally, they have a curated facade and they're like chameleons. They're able to shift and shape and change their color depending on who's their audience and what they're trying to attain. But everything is a lie. Like just imagine how exhausting that is. Oh, I know. And I, I remember. Like in that moment, because that was the first court experience and we had to go several different times. I remember it like a light bulb went off in my brain okay, if you're gonna play that role. Then we're shifting. We're shifting. I was like Aaron Brockovich. I had my entire floor covered with papers and screenshots. I had everything highlighted for my attorney, like I was his favorite client because I had the little, post-it note tabs and everything. Wr. Yep. Came in like a rockstar. Held my head high. I was confident. I wasn't scared. Because why would I be like, you're this little sad victim over here, right? Like just. So disgusting you, right? Yeah. And he was not like, I knew that part of his, we, I knew some of his weaknesses where he is very disorganized. He was not prepared. He liked to use spreadsheets to manipulate people and make them think he was really intelligent and have all these numbers and this and that and the other. And he also like a little, like a pocket protector with his little pen, right? Big glasses. But the reason I'm bringing this up is because it comes back to this like perception that you have, right? And it's not just a perception about yourself, because I took on a new perception of myself as being, wait I can actually. Show up how I want to show up. I can be strong, I can be smart, I can be prepared, have structure, have all these things in place, and then also seeing him as a very different person. Yeah, you are not smart, sir. You are a pretender. You are faking things like I'm going to outsmart you and I did every time. And so here's the thing you have to remember, abusers are only successful because they break you down bit by bit, piece by piece. They make you feel incapable because they need to, if you actually went into the relationship and left the actual relationship the same way that you went in, which is probably confident, self-assured feeling, that you can do stuff. You might, have issues and some insecurities. You would not stay with them. You would've left way sooner. They need to make you feel like you are powerless, like you are not as smart as them. Like they know better than anybody else. Every narcissist is the smartest person in any room. They're doctor daddy, and they can be, and know nothing about. The medical practice, but all of a sudden I know better than anybody else I know better than the neurosurgeon about our child. Yeah. Yeah. And so when you actually step back, and again, healing really affords you that luxury. You've been able to look at it from the outside looking in. When you're in it, you can't see the forest for the trees, but when you have some distance, you can actually see everything is just a house of cards. It doesn't take much to make it crumble and yeah. You start to realize, and also I don't want people to forget, you have survived somebody who was trying to break you. So you are actually far more powerful and far stronger than they are. They are very fragile, weak people. What kind of a person goes around trying to break people that they're supposed to love? Not people who feel good about themselves. That's, I don't wake up in the morning, go, who am I gonna ruin today? I go out in the world going, who can I build up help today? Like I smile at people, I open doors, I like pick stuff up from older people, right? Like I go out in the world trying to leave a positive impact. Yeah. These people go through life going, what can I get for myself? How can I hurt people? How can I make myself feel strong? That's not like the mark of a strong person. It's the mark of a very insecure person. Very Thank you for sharing that. What do you wanna leave the listeners with today as either something that they should do going forward that maybe they're not doing yet to help themselves and help their children, or, if not that, or maybe both that, or just like a general piece of advice. I need you to remember who you are before somebody needed to make you feel less than to make themselves feel powerful. They create a lot of confusion about circumstances, about reality, about your own worth. But you are far more capable than they are. They just had to make you feel like you are not capable in order for them to feel powerful. I really need you to invest time and energy into yourself. We've talked about this before, but like when you're on an airplane and they're talking about in case of emergency, the oxygen mask come down. Do they say put your children's oxygen mask on first? Or what do they always say? Put your own on first and then take care of your children. And this feels very foreign to most people, but especially survivors of abuse. You've been conditioned over time to always take care of everybody else, and then you are the very bottom of the list, right? So you might not even get around to yourself, but you are not gonna be able. To be the parent that your children need and deserve. You're not gonna be able to be the person that you deserve and need as well. If you don't first take care of yourself. It all starts with you. I can't say that enough. And when people actually, people listen to me go, okay, Chantelle. And then something clicks and they're like, oh my gosh, now my life has changed. Nothing else has changed other than their perception of reality and their perception of who they are. And they focus on what they can do. And when you do that, everything changes. Yeah. I love that. They don't change. They're always gonna be the same. Life is always gonna be difficult. I'm not saying that this can be like, oh, I'm so excited now. And life is wonderful. But you can have a happy, fulfilled life and still have them in the background. And don't you think also that by doing that you're modeling self love? Yeah. Self care. It's not, some people might think that we by doing that, oh, I'm selfish. Or you know it, we're not talking about neglecting people here. Yeah. That's not what we're talking about. It's putting yourself first, and it's not the way that a narcissist does, and this is where a lot of our behaviors are parallel to what they do, but it's the intention that's always different, right? Our intention is not to be selfish jerks who take. It's to fill ourselves up. If you have left this type of relationship, you are probably empty running on like nothing, right? You need to put back what's been robbed from you, and then continuously do that because. The post-separation abuse is still gonna be parallel to your life. Still gonna happen. It doesn't go away. What I want it to be is less like this crazy scary thing that you're so scared of and you're like, I can't live my life because this person is there and everything I do, they try to, break it. It's okay. Yeah, that person's there. I'm also very capable. I'm gonna live a good life. And they're more like a fly around ointment. It's annoying. You don't know where they've been or what shit they've landed on, but they're no longer taking up all of your energy. I'm sorry, I don't mean to both like the visual, what shit they've landed on. Excuse me. Might wanna edit that out. I'm not quite sure. No, I'm not editing it. I don't ever edit my podcast actually, unless there was like a big, like a door slam or something like that. Because I like it to be real around here. Yeah. Okay. Say thank you for that. I really do appreciate everything that you've brought up, all of your amazing advice, your experience and how much you deeply care about people and wanna support them. I ask every guest on my podcast this one question, what is something about you that like, okay, I know people in your like immediate circle know, but like probably something even, I don't know, like what's something people don't know about you? Something interesting. What is interesting is I've got a lot of interesting tidbits with people. I learned to fence. That's how I found out I was pregnant. Yeah, I, yeah. I took fencing at the local senior center when I was like 25 or 26. I was like the only like light haired per everybody else. There was like, like gray haired and probably 70 plus. But I was like, I am gonna take up fencing. I think fencing's cool. And then I was like, I'm so tired. And it was like five o'clock at night and I was like, why am I so I was,'cause I was pregnant. Oh. Oh my gosh. So I was in like the first trimester where everything just felt exhausting. And then because I actually had a belly, I changed from fencing into belly dancing, and so I took up some belly dancing. Oh my gosh. Fencing and belly dancing. I was thinking you were tired because of fencing, because you were doing all the fencing. You were so tired. But no, it was because of you were pregnant. I was, yeah. It's'cause I was pregnant. I had no idea that I was pregnant. Yeah. Yeah. That is hilarious. Okay, love that. And belly dancing, which that's really sounds really fun too. It was super fun and I had a belly for the first time in my life, so it was awesome. I can throw that bad boy off. Oh, all the things that I know about you now. I'm sure there's plenty more that I can learn. Thank you so much. Tell everybody where they can connect with you, find you and what you've got going on to support people right now. So you can find me on social media. Chantel countering us coaching. Hopefully you have show notes'cause good luck trying to spell any of that. You can also find me on my website also on tre. I have masterclasses that I run. I have this free masterclass and it's free. So there's no investment for you other than time. And that is to teach your children to be critical thinkers and to be discerning. I also have a membership group. I have a podcast myself. And what's the name of your podcast? The Survivor's Playbook. The Survivor's Playbook. And I'm just launching the one that I'm really excited about too. It's called Story Time with Chantel, and it's the true stories, can't make this stuff up kind of stories. So it's 10 to 15 minutes where I'm literally in my PJ's drinking tea and telling you stories. They're true stories from real survivors that are gonna make you like laugh and go, oh my gosh, that feels just like me too. And it's from followers and members and people who have given me their information. That's amazing. Awesome. Thank you so much for being here and for your presence and for all of your amazing tidbits of information and wisdom. I am so grateful that you're here, that you're helping people, and that you're in this world and that you're my friend. I appreciate you. I know. And we met in this space, right? Yeah. So this is the thing is that stuff happens, but other stuff happens That's even better. So because of this, we both connected. All right everybody. Thank you for being here. Please check the show notes. You can connect with Chantal there. Find her on her website, join her programs, whatever you need to do for the support that you need, and we'll talk to you next week.