Navigating Relationships and Parenting Special Needs Children with Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife

Discover practical insights on maintaining healthy relationships and effective parenting strategies for families with autistic or special needs children. Join us as Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife shares her personal journey, professional expertise, and compassionate advice for couples and parents navigating these unique challenges.

 In this episode you will find:

• Dr. Jennifer’s background in relationship and intimacy coaching
• Her personal story as a mother of a young adult with autism diagnosed in childhood
• How stress impacts marriage and parenting, especially with special needs children
• The importance of self-awareness and emotional regulation for parents
• Strategies for couples to work as partners rather than in conflict
• The concept of intentionally choosing your child and their condition
• Balancing investment in parenting and self-care
• Creating joy and playfulness amidst challenges
• Supporting neighbors and community members with special needs children
• Dr. Jennifer's recent book "We Might Have Joy" and its connection to spirituality and well-being
• Practical advice for parents feeling overwhelmed and isolated

Find more of Dr. Jennifer at https://www.finlayson-fife.com/

We want to hear from you! Follow us and leave a comment on our Instagram at ThePolarisConnection or reach us at Info@PolarisAcademy.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

So much of living, learning to live our lives well and to learn how to love is to be able to forgive how deeply imperfect life is, how deeply imperfect we all are, and to love in the face of that.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Blair's Connection, your podcast that connects parents of autistic children with industry experts and proven results. I am your host, Brad Broils, and I'm here with my colorful Coda Bear co-host, Nathan Palmer.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

You know, Brad, I never know how I'm going to be introduced on an episode. I look forward to each iteration. I I don't know that I merit some of the titles, but Coda Bear is a name I will bear proudly. It's it's our mascot, and uh couldn't be a better day for me. I'm more excited though about our guest. I I'm so excited about today's conversation.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Yes, folks, we have an excellent guest here today, Dr. Jennifer Finlet A. Fife. Thank you so much. She is a licensed um psychologist and relationships coach with us and a host of a great podcast, Conversations with Dr. Jennifer. We hope all will listen. So, Jennifer, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Love that you're here. Thank you for all that you do. How did you get involved with relationship coaching?

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Well, I got my PhD in counseling psychology. So um I'm a licensed therapist and I always had an interest in marriage and marriage relationships and specifically intimate relationships, so also sexual relationships. So that's where I focused all my training and education and my research. And I no longer am doing mental health counseling, but I really focused on teaching people skills and self-awareness to be able to create better relationships, better marriages, and part of that better parenting relationships.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

Wonderful. And you know, relationships in general, I want to dive into as we get into the episode, but uh, there's so many different versions of them. And, you know, when we were first introduced to your work, there's a context out there about intimacy coaching, and that can mean a lot of things. But the reality is when you get into a marriage relationship, the differentiator between a standard and that is kind of intimacy. And it's wonderful to know there's resources out there. And there's there's a lot of advice you give across all those contexts between parents and kids. I want to get into that some of it today. But part of the other reason that we wanted you on the podcast was your background as a co-parent of a special needs child, right? And can you tell us about that a little bit about your child, if you if you don't mind, and just kind of um Sure.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Well, he's a young adult now, but he is our first of three kids. And um and he was born in 1999 when it was a relatively new diagnosis to be on the autism spectrum. Being a person that was in the therapy field and having a niece with autism, who I had worked with and done a lot of behavior therapy with before I got married and so on. I had done some research already on autism and what they called Asperger syndrome at the time. Um and so I was maybe a little more tuned in to what I saw happening and not happening with my oldest. Um, but yeah, he was diagnosed when he was two, and I was overwhelmed as a parent. Uh, I mean, it's a whole uh maybe any first child is a little bit overwhelming, but also overwhelmed in my fear and my uncertainty about if I would be enough for him, if I would know how to parent him. Um, so many levels of how to make sense of even what it meant that I had a special needs child. So I I think um I I got thrown into that world and it's been a wonderful journey. Like really I I'm so grateful for my son and who he is and who he's becoming. And so yeah, but a journey for sure.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

Yeah, and we talked to a lot of parents about that initial point when they get that diagnosis. In fact, we had a uh professional psychologist on this, but that's part of the diagnosing, and even just the apprehension parents have in coming and wondering what is this, and do I even want an answer, right? Because the answer itself can be so daunting. It seems like when you get on the other side, I I think we share the same journey. My wife and I, it was he was our first. Um, we did not have the clinical training you did. So seeing some of these developmental milestones, we were a little later. Um and he had some other medical conditions that complicated it. But once you get over the initial shock and you start to see the path it takes you, it's it's almost liberating in a way. I I I credit my son with helping me be a better dad because a lot of things that I think I wouldn't have been as intentional about, it gives me the opportunity to really focus in how do I teach this child, how do I help them develop in ways that are more than just milestones that they'll hit incrementally, right? I have to help that along. And it's been uh it's been as much a blessing as it has a challenge.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Well, and Nike, and one of the reasons why we wanted Dr. Jennifer on our show is I love that you are a relationship coach. And we wanted to talk a little bit about that relationship with parents working together with autistic or special needs children. Can you dive into that a little bit, Doctor, about how you know, what are some good approaches starting out that you can work with your spouse, work with your significant other in in raising special needs children? That might be different from just general children.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

So yeah, well, so what I would say is that um if you want to stress a marriage uh and see what it's really capable of, you know, have kids. And then if you really want to stress it and really see what it's capable of, have a special needs child. Um and because in general, you know, we tend to do pretty well in our relationships when we're not stressed, when we're feeling pretty good about ourselves, when we're feeling okay about life. Most of us can be reasonable and fair and kind and collaborative. Where people tend to struggle is when they are dysregulated, when they are in a dis um when they're in an uncomfortable reality with their sense of who they are, with their relationship to life and to others, when those things are in some distress and disequilibrium, the worst in us tends to emerge. And so I would say that parenting a special needs child is really, in some ways, no different than just being a parent or being in a relationship and trying to live your life. But the stresses tend to be higher. The questions about your competency, your sense of self, you know, uh what you expect or need from the other person all gets magnified. And so it can be really challenging. Yes, it highlights your inadequacies, and then you can be you know, I remember when when uh right after Graham was diagnosed, John, my husband, was um r took a job out of state and we weren't ready to move yet. And I just I don't maybe don't want to use my kids' names so much, but my oldest was in a special needs school and so on. And so it meant I was home alone with him and then a newborn baby that we had. And John was gone for, you know, a couple weeks at a time, and it was ridiculously stressful. It was exactly the most right thing of our challenging choices. But I remember when he would come back in, I it's almost like I would feel a kind of anger towards him that really had no sense to it. It was like I was upset about the reality of my life. I felt very trapped. I felt like I couldn't even get to a grocery store and handle because it was so overwhelming for my son with autism, and I had a newborn, and I just felt like my life was kind of closing in on me. It certainly wasn't my husband's fault. And I was lucky in that I had somebody who cared about what I was going through, was very involved when he was home. But it was still like it's very easy to take our own challenges to our happiness, to our own sense of adequacy and have them infect our relationships, even if we don't want them to, even when we know it's irrational for it to. And so, yeah, it's it's it's the self-awareness. So, to your question, self-awareness is a really key and working with yourself around, you know, what am I inclined to do when I'm overwhelmed? How does that affect me? How does that affect the relationship? And can I learn another approach when I'm under that level of stress or overwhelm?

SPEAKER_02 9:23

I like that that perspective. You know, when uh when we were first introduced to your work, a lot of people, I think, kind of turn towards relationship guidance or resources because there's something they're looking for that they want to either get out of the other person or that they want to have in the relationship. And it was refreshing to hear you posit a theory of let's not look necessarily just at what you want, but let's ask the question, how do you react when you don't get what you want?

SPEAKER_03 9:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

And what does that look like when your expectations aren't met? And that's the side that causes most of the struggle and the strife in a relationship. Um and I can tell you from the parenting side, while that's an exercise I can do with my wife, the more I think about it, it applies to my child as well, because I had this expectation of what family would look like, of what you know kids would be. And my first child coming with special needs was not something that I was prepared for. Uh and certainly not necessarily something that I could say that I wanted. And so it's a it's an interesting exercise if we look at ourselves and and not understanding how our dysregulation appears, what responses and how that affects us behaviorally, how are we supposed to navigate our children through when they get dysregulated and when they're when they're not getting what they want? So it's a it's an exercise I've come to appreciate, even though it took me kind of off guard the first time I heard the theory. So I appreciate the approach that until we learn to navigate that within ourselves, we're not gonna do a very good job of navigating that in a relationship with a child.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Yes. Yeah, I I think so often and understandably, we have an idea about what life is gonna give us if we work hard enough, if we marry the right person, if we, you know, we have an idea of if I do these things, I'm gonna get what I want. And there's some truth in that, right? You work hard, get a degree, or whatever. There's there's good things that come from that purposeful action. But so much of living to learning to live um our lives well and to learn how to love is to be able to forgive how deeply imperfect life is, how deeply imperfect we all are, and to love in the face of that. And that is a process, and it often comes with disillusionment and disorientation that this isn't going the way I expected, you know. I mean, and I remember probably a lot of people in the special needs community are familiar with this, but I remember in the doctor's office sitting there in that first year. Um, it was there was something on the wall, I don't even remember what exactly it was, but it was like, you know, so much parenting a special needs child is you think you're going on a trip to Italy and yet there's a detour and you w land in Holland. And there's a lot of wonderful things in Holland. I mean, right? But when you thought it was going to be Italy and the rest of the plane is going to Italy, and they're going on about their vacations and the grape food, and you're in Holland and it's cold, it it can take a bit to find your footing and find the beauty there. And there's plenty of beauty there, but it's often that that puncture to what we were expecting that is a process and takes a lot of courage sometimes to find something stronger in ourselves that that our cult to parenting is gonna ask of us.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Let me ask you this, Doctor. We there's when you're when you're married and you have a children, it's hard for sometimes spouses to be on the same page of how we're gonna raise this child. There are some spouses or couples out there that one's one is really reading all the books and trying to do all the things, and then the other spouse, not that he or she is disconnected, but they're not really as engaging, they're not really connecting in a way. I'm gonna say power couple to say this is our approach. How would you navigate that with one spouse really, you know, doing all the legwork, trying to figure it out? The other one, again, m not that they're lazy or they're, but somehow they're just not connecting. So how would you what advice would you give to those type of couples?

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Yeah. So I mean, the question for me, if I were working with that kind of couple, is is this a overfunctioning, underfunctioning problem? Is it a one's invested, one is not invested problem? Because these are two different problems. I'll explain them in a minute. You know, or is it just a simple differences problem, differences in approach? So what I mean is sometimes it's an over-underfunctioning thing. And that is to say that one person is trying very hard to be everything for that child. They want to read all the things, they're gonna get the answers, and if everybody does things the right way, it's all gonna come together. But it's it's a little bit in a fantasy.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

Um But it's such a nice fantasy.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

It's a great one. And that's one I had for a while, yes. And uh and then you can also have the like, okay, and so if you, husband or wife, get it together and do these things, we're gonna be fine. But in a way, the overfunctioning spouse almost makes it possible for the other one to be kind of hands-off because they don't want to be bossed around, they don't want to be overcorrected, they also are like, well, the other person's got it. I don't need to concern myself. So it's it's a dynamic that happens in marriages with just neurotypical kids or just, you know, it's an easy thing to do. Absolutely. Um and so what often the often the person I may challenge first is the one that's overfunctioning, that's in the kind of idea that if everybody does it the way I think they should, this will all go the right way. To invite, if you actually want, do you want a partner in this, or do you just want another person to to kind of attend, do your bidding, basically? Okay, because I'm not saying that the overfunctioner is the problem. It's a co-created problem, but you have to see the pattern and break it. Because I would say partnership is way harder than bossing people around or feeling judgmental and doing it yourself. Partnership is way harder than rolling your eyes at the overfunctioning spouse and saying you just aren't that uptight or whatever, but not being involved. Okay. That that's also easier. And so what collaboration or partnership requires is a deeper kind of willingness to work together, to understand each other's perspectives, but to both be invested. Um, that goes to the second problem, is that I am also seeing situations in which in which one parent isn't necessarily trying to overfunction. They aren't necessarily in a fantasy, but they are more invested or more able to cope with the reality of their special needs child than the other parent is. And the other one has just kind of not bought in, hasn't really taken it onto themselves. And so they're they're imbalanced in their investment. And that just requires more honest conversation. You can't make someone be invested, but you can make it, you can pull it into relief, the reality of it and it's and its impact. Right? It's hard when things are hard, people cope in different ways. And sometimes we can cope by pretending being underreactive to our situation. We can certainly be over-reactive, right? But we can be under-reactive to our problems. And so you know, if I'm working with someone like that, it's being in more honest conversation about the fact that they're not stepping up to what this child needs from them and that it's affecting the family. So yeah, and it's not you just have to do what your spouse says, it's more you need to do what your own conscience says, you know. You need to be more involved if you're gonna be at peace and if your child's gonna know you love them.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Well, and I see that's a valuable aspect of a relationship coach, because sometimes hearing that from a third party is a little bit better or definitely it might sink in than hearing it from your spouse. Yes. And that's yeah. That's kind of the fine line you run. If you have the overfunction, I I I like how you said you want to start with the overfunctioning spouse first and say, hey, do you want to control this or do you want a partner? And then it kind of worked that way. That was that was really, really, really neat. But I know that there's families out there that are in those situations, and that's why I want to bring that up. Like if you are out there and you do feel this way, these are some really good approaches. Other than bringing in a coach, is there some good questions that the overfunctioning parent might ask or might bring the lights around like, hey, I'm not attacking you, but I'm looking for a partner.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

Mm-hmm. I think, you know, it always helps to come in with some self-confrontation, especially if you tend to go into kind of one-up judgment. And believe me, if you if you feel like someone's not pulling their weight, not doing their part, one-up judgment is a very easy place to go, right? Because you're overwhelmed, you're stressed, you feel taken advantage of. And it's a way of trying to deal with your anger that feels good. You know, it it feels like you're doing something. Um but it can help to say, you know, if this, if you think this is true, to come and say, like, I um I know let's just say it's the the one who's home. Okay. So let's say it's the the mother in this situation. And I know because I'm here, I'm boots on the ground a lot, that I ha and and I feel somewhat overwhelmed that when you walk through the door, I can be, you know, challenging or I'm not really making room for what you think, and I'm frustrated that you aren't just kind of running in and kind of getting in line and doing the things that are needed. I'm just making this uh making up what this might sound like. I know that's hard. I know I do that. And I don't want to be in that position. I need to do better with it. Because what I really, really want with you is more of a sense of partnership around raising our child. I want a sense that you and I are thinking about these things and coming to some decisions that reflect what we both think and what we both value. Because Dr. Yeah, go ahead, yeah, please.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

I have to tell you, you have a, and I don't mean to interrupt, but I just want to highlight something. You have an extreme talent for conveying honesty in a non-confrontational way. Um, because I'm listening to what you're saying. And and take this from a I am a career self-professed overfunctioner. I might write a book on that. And so, yeah, though whether you voice the frustrations or not, they're they're there and they're present. And and even if you don't say the overt words, I'm frustrated with you, it comes out in your behavior, your actions. It's it reads either way.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

You're you're introducing this idea of taking I it's I don't want to say it's just an honest approach because if you're upset, you're being honest about that. But you're taking a much more inviting approach to sharing an honesty that does not trigger vitriol or the criticism and the defensiveness that comes so often in these conflicts by by going down to that core question, what do I want? And if that's partnership, then that means there and I I hate to use the quote from your podcast, but that has that means there has to be room for two. That's right. And that's a hard exercise.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Yes. It's a developmental thing. I mean, yeah, the these moments of not getting what we want push us to either to turn to our contempt because you can be contemptuous towards your partner. That's not working as hard as you think you're working. They can be contemptuous towards the overfunctioner because they're like, you think you know everything and you're, you know. And so there's a lot of hostility going on and not very much actually working together to do your collective job. And so, yeah, when we're upset about not getting what we want, we might be saying all the words. You could write down every word I just said and say it. But if you are just, you know, if if contempt is coming off of your body as you say those words, your spouse will know it and they'll be in reaction to you. Because what they're in reaction to is the judgment, the superiority, the idea that you get what they should do and you don't. And so they're going to be in a struggle with you rather than in a conversation with you. And so it's hard to do, but very important to do.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

And so listen, I I can't I can't praise your work enough because what what it brings to light is that and and it's not to anyone's fault, when we have a child with special needs, all the attention tends to go to them. And we tend to almost over-function in that work, which is hard enough as it is. And if we're coming to it from a place that we're not joined and we're not either there's an investment problem or or an over-underfunctioning problem. And I I love the terminology you're using because they're they're highlighting distinct things I think parents can relate with just when they hear it. Um it's it complicates the matter. And and the work doesn't get easier until it gets easier to hear first between between a spouse, then you can kind of show up in a more partnered way for your child. Now on your on the investment side, um and I I love the perspective over overfunctioning. On the investment side, there was a podcast you had, and I I don't remember the exact episode or which platform, I believe it was on conversations with Dr. Jennifer. And Jennifer, you got into a a dialogue about intentionally choosing not just your child, but their condition, like the this, this place you find yourself with a special needs child. And I wondered if you could speak to that because I think it goes to that idea of am I invested or am I not? And it plays so much with the mentality of how we approach our children.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Yeah. So, you know, I talk about this in with respect to marriage, like really choosing another person that's different than you. And a lot of times people are like, what does that mean? What does that mean? And it's it's a it's very different than a kind of reactive kind of love or like trying to solve yourself through the other person. So to be honest about my story, I when I when my child was born, I married into a very intellectual family. And I felt like I was, this is just my regressed self, but I really felt like the weak link in the family, in the extended family. And nobody there made me feel that way. They'd just gone to Ivy Lake schools and I had not, right? Okay. So when I had a special needs child born at the same time as a cousin, and that cousin is like, you know, went on and went to Harvard, okay, just to give you a sense, okay. And my child's like banging his head against the wall. It's like, I don't mean to be disrespectful to my son, okay, at all, but like it just fit my fear. It fit my feelings.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

And it's true that that that that is just a thing. Yeah. I we can't help but compare two other people, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Yeah. And and our children, I think kind of naturally, and even some biology in it, and it probably helps us keep our kids alive, they feel like an extension of ourselves. They feel like, oh, this is reflecting on me in some way. Um, even though what do I have to do with genetics? I mean, really, like I didn't choose my genes nor the ones I passed on. Okay. So, so you know, I think for the first several years of my child's life, I was busy trying to solve him, to be the Uber parent that does all the right therapies and does all the right things. And there's plenty of stories like that out on the internet trying to sell you stuff that, like, you just do all these things, it all works out. And so I was that. And it look, it wasn't working. I don't mean to say that those things didn't make a difference for my child. I think they very well did, but that's different than he wasn't still a child with a lot of impulse control challenges, a lot of he was a challenging young child. And um, and I think I went through a period of just like grieving. Like I I can't, I've done all the right things, supposedly, and yet I still have a very challenging situation on my hands. And I I think that what I was tracking in myself is you know, that I'm not proud of any of these feelings, but my anger towards him, my anger that he wasn't evident, he wasn't revealing the best in me. Like in so many other areas of my life, I could work hard and make something happen. And in this situation, I couldn't. I didn't have the control over it. And so, you know, I I had to deal with my own sense of self and how I was making him responsible for it, and how I would it was create it was create that reality was creating feelings in me that I was not proud of, I knew we were wrong, I knew they were not fair, and I had to deal with them. And and I think that self-awareness and self-confrontation just pushed me to a place where I had to say, like, this is not about me. This he is his own expression of divinity, he is his own person, he is not me. And I have a choice to love him and bring my best to him or not love him and not bring my best, but that's all I get. I can do my part or not do my part, but he he isn't I don't know how to say it, like he is not somebody I'm molding into anything. He is his own person, and I get a choice if I'm gonna love him or not. And I think that just something shifted for me in that period. And it just made it easier to love care about him and in a s this paradoxical way, not take responsibility for him in the same way, which sounds wrong, but was right, you know, because then I could just take responsibility for who I was relative to him.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

Oh, that's that was a choice.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

That's a beautiful perspective. I I I shared on another episode we had if I could go back and tell my younger self one thing, it would be don't try to fix your kid. Just worry about being a good dad for him.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Yeah, we hear that a lot of like you know, your your child's not broken. We really don't like to use the word diagnosis because that means that there's a way to fix that diagnosis. Diagnosis is like you said, accept the child for who they are. They're not me, they're their own. I like how you said their own divinity, their own divine. Totally true. And I like how you said that it it's a choice. Yes. Make a choice. And it is, you know, we're just gonna love and then play. We talked a lot about that too, about playing with your children. Yeah. How simple that is, that we kind of get away from that a little bit. So and I think you could probably do that with your spouse too.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

It's a hundred percent related to marriage, too. Like just as you're saying it, because you know, so often we get married, we're attracted to the difference, we we find it compelling and so on. And then as soon as you get married and you start trying to, you're like, what is the matter with you? Like, I'm you start wanting to change each other. Why can't you just be more like me? Okay, of course you weren't attracted to the people that were just like you. But then you you you spend several years trying to change each other. And then if the marriage everything's going well, there comes a certain point where you're like, I can't change them. And uh, and yet their life would be so much better if they were like me.

SPEAKER_02 30:11

Well, and I would I would say that journey of I can't change them to I don't want to change them is an interesting one.

SPEAKER_03 30:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Because it starts as you're right, right? There's a tension in opposites attract and and and there's a lot of science and and reason for that. But as you get into this shared living, yeah, we're trying to push somebody into our environment to make them less of themselves. But by default, they're becoming less of that person we're attracted to, and we wonder why in trying to force conformity, we're losing attraction.

SPEAKER_03 30:41

Right.

SPEAKER_02 30:42

And so when you when you do the shift of I can appreciate you and your differences, and not only that, those were what drew me to you to begin with. And so I want you to continue. In this way that I've been frustrated with. Yeah, that that's yeah, it it's it's like you can't have a vibrant relationship without some level of tension. And it's not conflict, might not be the right word, but just just difference, right? To bring that.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Well, and just to speak quickly of that, because like I work with couples on the loss of passion, the loss of desire. Well, that's play. That's what play is, the freedom to celebrate and enjoy each other. And you have it often in the beginning, but then when your sense of self is being challenged and your sense of like, I want to belong to my life and be with you, and I feel like I can't, and I'm so frustrated. But when you cross over into that place of being able to accept them, to love your spouse as they are, right? Then you open up the doorway to a freedom again, a kind of playfulness that's can be back in the marriage, but it's it's grounded in reality, not in the fantasy of the beginning. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Can you talk a little bit more about that play that maybe you and your husband did while raising a special needs child?

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Aaron Powell Like how how we made that transition, is that what you're doing?

SPEAKER_01 31:56

Do you have anything like a like an example that you guys did to say, you know, this is kind of how we played. This is how we kind of kept that together.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Trevor Burrus, Jr. Well, so there's maybe two different things there in the sense of, you know, I my husband and I got married much later than most people. He was in his 30s, I was almost 30. Um and so in a l and we dated for about three years. So when we got married, we were much more in the cho uh choosing frame when we got married. I mean, that I don't mean to say that there haven't been times where I've I've been back into that and reasserting that choice and realizing I'm regressing into this desire to change and so on. Um but the marriage itself was pretty solid even with those stressors. But what was true was there was very little time because um I was we were just so overwhelmed with the financial pressures of trying to um get the therapy and so on that a special needs child needed while I was home. John was working. Um, we were under a lot of stress and we didn't have a lot of family support close by. So that is, it was hard to like get away, and and even if we could afford a sitter, it was sometimes felt dangerous to leave just one sitter with my kids because I wasn't sure if everybody could keep track of my child who had a lot of impulse control challenges. So that was hard. And um I I don't I'm not trying to say our situation was generalizable. I think it it just was hard to get away for quite a while. Um, but there were a few things that I think worked in our favor. One is because the marriage was pretty solid, even just being able to be together at the end of the day, I felt understood what I was going through. I felt cared about. I felt, you know, that there was a sense of being able to come together in a real way. I don't mean always, of course, but like there was this thread that was still being sustained, even though it was challenging. I also looked for any opportunity, like going to church. My oldest had his own Sunday school teacher. And because it was hard for him to be in a classroom with a lot of other kids. And man, I lived that up so much. I was so grateful for that gift.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

That one-hour break.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

Never did I enjoy church so much because I just had a couple hours of freedom to just interact with other adults. And I mean, it seems kind of minor, but it was a big deal for me at that point. That was a pretty intensive period. It got easier as time went on. And he got to be a little bit easier, child. Um, we also had some family help, so we were able to hire some added support at a certain point that became possible so that John and I could go and just make time, like go out to eat once every couple of weeks, you know, just have a moment and feel like adults that just letting go of the parenting idea for a moment and just having time to be a man and a woman again. So it's not easy. And and it, you know, I hesitate to make it seem easy because it really depends. I had the good fortune of having a spouse that was very infested, of having family that really cared about us, even though they were far away. Um and so it wasn't easy. But I just was aware of other people that were in our kids' school, like one situation she had three kids with special needs and her spouse left her, you know. You just could see like some people's situations are so challenging that I it almost sounds glib to say you gotta make time to go on dates. But if you can make time like to exercise, if there's any way to make that possible in your life, it's it's extraordinarily valuable to just reconnecting to your sense of self to be able to go back in and have some strength for your situation.

SPEAKER_02 36:23

When I I love the idea because we put listen, we we tend to solve the problems that we focus on, right? And as a parent, it is so easy to put the focus on our children and not on ourselves. In fact, there's almost like this self-righteous, I'm gonna sacrifice me for you idea out there.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

And what you're positing. And I like the I like the intentionality of it is that you have to be the best version of you and and you have to find ways not just to it it's true to your statement, it's not always easy to create those times. You know, our our special need son on top of everything was a type one diabetic and was hypersensitive to insulin. So it was a threat of if we go on a date, someone might kill our kid, you know. And um, but but but I think there's something to be said because you were focused on looking for those opportunities, that one hour at church was an intentional opportunity that you got to take joy in. Right versus versus saying you just as easily could have said, My kid's the one kid that needs his own teacher and wallow in self-misery because you're focusing on the wrong problem rather than this is it, I've got some time, let's take advantage and self self-heal and self-soothe.

SPEAKER_03 37:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:39

So often we've talked, Brad, uh, how and we've had so many therapists on uh doctor that have given the advice for us let us let us take the professional approach. You go be a parent to your kid and and find time to play. And I love this idea. Hey, you guys are a couple just as much as an important it's important to play for the relationship of your child, you need to play with your spouse and have that time to connect.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

Yeah. And I think I kind of grew up a little bit in the mindset of the zero sum idea for a mother, especially. I even my mom was home full-time. And so I had a little bit the idea that if I went and did something that I alone enjoyed, that I was subtracting from them. And, you know, if somebody had asked me, do I believe that, I'd say, no, that that sounds crazy. But I somewhere inside of me believed it. And I just remember we had this opportunity to redo our kitchen, you know, several years into parenting. And I I cared so much about that. That was like so because I had studied interior design and things like that. And I remember like having the chance to go look for countertops. And I was gone away from the kids for maybe two and a half hours, and it was a thrill for me to be there. And I found a countertop stone that I thought would be so great. And I just remember coming home and being like, like they they had a good time with this sitter that was into them, okay, loves them. Um, the situation was stable because she was somebody who worked with special needs kids. So she she was a great person to leave the kids with. I went and had a great time. And when I came home, I was more in love with my kids. I was happier to be there. They were also happy to see me again. And it just kind of occurred to me like this is not zero sum. Like I went and I actually felt attached to another part of myself and was in a something where I was creating something. And, you know, I came back happier and more joyful, and they were happier and more joyful. And so I realized, you know, taking care of yourself, connecting to other parts of yourself is good for your kids too.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

I was I was gonna do a follow-up because and I I didn't mean to gloss over in the beginning, but you you were sharing this initial experience when you found out the diagnosis and you know, your husband was traveling and just that sense of powerlessness and aloneness. And Jennifer, I know a lot of parents listening, they're there now. And to hear these other side of the world stories that no, it's great, and there's all these blessings, there's a transition point there I think sometimes we move past too quickly.

SPEAKER_03 40:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

What was were these types of approaches, these small little self-focus, was that uh one of the pieces or the main piece that helped you get from that initial low state to not just functional, but a thriving state? Because that's where I think a lot of us look. What makes this work? What makes this get to the phrase where I go, I appreciate where I am, I can choose versus poor me, I'm stuck?

SPEAKER_00 40:44

Well, so I think uh there's a coup maybe a couple pieces that helped me get from the I'm drowning to life is good. I think one thing is that I had a lot of people, well-intentioned people, who would say things to me like, you know, um, God gave you this special needs child because you needed to learn something. Okay. I take issue with that on many levels. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

But I've already learned that lesson, so I don't need that challenge. So you go for it, right?

SPEAKER_00 41:17

Yeah, exactly. Uh and so exactly. So never ever say that to anyone, no matter how well-intentioned it's the wrong thing to ever say. But um I I think that I just didn't believe that idea. I just didn't think it was true. I really saw it as a statistical reality, and it landed on me, you know, and I had a special needs child. God didn't foreordain it, want it. It was just the risk of living and choosing to have a baby. It is, you know, it is to risk sadness and disappointment and loss to be alive, to love, to desire anything is to risk disappointment. And so I think I it was a process for me and it took time, but I didn't feel like anyone did it to me. I felt like it was I was living the reality that many, many good people are living, which is up against loss or hardship or challenge, and that I still had many, many things to be grateful for, truly, right? And that there was a lot of good in my life, even though these were not insignificant challenges and losses for me. I mean, just just going home for Christmas or visiting people was almost impossible for at least five years because it was just too challenging to keep my son safe, to keep other kids safe. It just was. And so I felt pretty isolated, not because people were rejecting me, but because it was the more right thing to do a lot of the time. And so, but so it was hard. But I think recognizing it wasn't what was I supposed to learn, but what can I learn? Who can I be in this? What kind of person do I want to be, given that this is the reality I'm in? And so getting it out of the I'm being acted upon frame to I am an actor, I am a chooser, um, that just was like an antidepressant. I I don't mean to say it meant I was gleeful. It's just that I wasn't in a powerless position like I felt. And it reminded me that I was an actor, that I could affect my reality by just it being at a minimum somebody that I felt good about being in my situation. So there was that, and that was really important. I think it was also true that um my child at certain points made just his trajectory. just shifted in positive directions. And I I don't mean to say he hasn't continued to have challenges, but I think that it was also watching the miracle of him emerge in a sense of who he is as a person. And seeing his own self-determination emerge in there. I think that was um you know my son still is somebody that obviously has special needs. So the people would certainly know that. But I could also see so much of the gift and strength and capacity in the person that he is. Um and I think that just I don't know I think that just was it it just became I I I think maybe what I'm trying to say in the long in a long way is that he was more challenging as a young child than he is now. And that made a difference. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

Is it because your your technique of parenting or tolerance might be greater or was he able to develop more in a way to be more self-reliant to where it's not so much so much intentional.

SPEAKER_00 45:09

I think I think it's both. I think I was I have I'm just probably more able to accept and love and and and not in that feeling of grief and loss um like I was a bit of a go ahead sorry yeah yeah no I was going to say there you just triggered a one of my favorite quotes from childhood and I don't know why this one's always stuck with me and I believe it's by Emerson said that which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do.

SPEAKER_02 45:37

Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but that our power to do is increased. And so this idea that you went from powerlessness to having some power to impact whatever things you can there's there's a there's a purpose that you find in that. And I think that's that's the shift of somebody that's lost versus someone that has direction. And it doesn't necessarily mean that your situation is any much you know it's more improved. But to just have the idea of I can affect my own direction, come what may, it allows you to now recognize those those growth patterns and those little wins because you've chosen you've chosen at least a focus versus how how do you see change when there's nothing to measure a market against Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:20

Yeah. So I think I do think um how I'm responding to my life has has evolved. I think also he just got more impulse control as he got older. And that shaped that made it much easier. He was an easier adolescent than he was young adult. And then a lot of I mean then he was a young child. And a lot of my other two kids who were really easy as young children and then in adolescence that's when they gave me their money for the all those young teenagers too in so many ways. Partly because I changed and partly because he was evolving as well.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

Mm-hmm Well and you mentioned something about like I like going back to that Sunday school teacher. That Sunday school teacher made a big impact in your life. Yes she did. In the community we have friends and neighbors that are that have special needs kids or autistic kids. What advice would you give to those neighbors that are like hey this is how you can help support my family any thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 47:42

Oh yeah it's that's a great question. I think I think if especially if you know there's a family situation where they're they're pretty overwhelmed like giving them the gift of of helping so that the parents can go out to eat. You know I remember my in-laws came into town and they were like we insist that you go out to eat. We are going to be here we are paying for it and you guys go out to eat. Okay. And it was it was great. It was a gift because you know I was like well I guess I have to I guess we have to that I think you know just just um taking an overworked mom take her out and get a pedicure I mean anything like that to just give the gift of time away where she or he does not have to worry. I think the other thing the people I was so grateful for was people that could see who my child was and loved and respected him as he was. Like they saw the gift of who he was sometimes better than I could because I was too overwhelmed or grieving. There was so much in that I I just felt so much gratitude for people who had that clarity because it was both role model for me and also I just loved people who could love my kids. And so um yeah there's just a lot in that um yeah so I I think sometimes with a special needs child people don't know how to interact so they just tend to avoid and the people that just go right to that special soul and they're there and they get it and they love that it's I mean I I just still have all kinds of gratitude for the people in my life that were like that with him.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

I couldn't agree with you more you you can tell instantly and I'm going to go back to term you used before instantly when someone is invested in the wellbeing of your child versus just tolerating or or and it's almost worth when when somebody recognizes you have special needs versus they're invested in the cause and they actually come and try to improve and make a difference it's it's so heartwarming to see those. And it's why you know Brad and I have loved all the guests that come on there there is a there is just a special place in my heart for those that choose this field to choose this work. Oh gosh and so going back to the idea of choosing um I I I was thrown into the world of autism I know you were too um I've gotten to choose it but for those that were never thrown in that have just intentionally chosen uh salt of the earth people and I can't thank them enough. Yeah and and doctor I I can't thank you enough for your insights you know I I I we talked before we even started and now I'm just more convinced we want to have you back another time. I I would love to dive in and I've I've so appreciated the personal side of your story. I know that wasn't necessarily the the clinical it wasn't but it was so engaging. And it's what frankly I wished I would have heard it when I was first new to this world just knowing there are others that share that and that there's hope for how to navigate through. But if you're open we'd love to have you back again to go into maybe some of those strategies for couples that are having some of those relationship dynamics that how we you know recognizing some of those common patterns, what to even look for because to say we have these patterns is one thing to give some framework of some common patterns at least start you on that path of what to notice. And then another thing I know I'd love to dive in is just that blend of having a neurodivergent and neurotypical kids, the interplay between parenting your children in different strategies and types of parenting there's a lot there I'd love to parcel out with you that, you know, if you're open, we'd love to have you back at some point.

SPEAKER_00 51:33

Yeah, sure I'd be happy to well awesome well Dr.

SPEAKER_01 51:37

Jennifer tell us I know with your podcast, tell our audience what do they expect to gain from your podcast as we wrap up sure so I have a free podcast which is conversations with Dr.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

Jennifer conversations like this about relationships, faith, sexuality. Then I have my podcast room for two, which is where I'm actually working with real couples around their relationship challenges, their sexuality challenges and so you get to listen in and hear how I intervene in those situations. So a lot of people write and tell me that listening to me coach another couple helps them know what they need to do differently in their own marriage.

SPEAKER_02 52:21

So that's really I'm asking for a friend type of dynamic where even though it's not me, I can hear me and the people, right?

SPEAKER_00 52:29

Yeah, yeah. So many people have said to me it both makes me feel less like I'm broken, like I'm like everybody else. And then also like what I actually could do to make my situation better or to be a better partner. So yeah. So it's yeah so it's a it's a valuable resource. I have online courses as well for teaching couples how to address their marriages and how to parent better. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:54

And you're also recently a published author, right?

SPEAKER_00 52:56

That I believe that we might have joy yes yeah so that's a book about the relationship between sexuality and spirituality. And for a lot of religious people we grow up kind of learning those two things don't go together. And I'm basically make the argument that they're deeply connected to each other, that um they're very much tied to a sense of joy in life, that being in at peace with our bodies and if we're in a marriage at peace in our intimate relationship is highly connected to our well-being and our spiritual well-being. So yeah so that's that we might have joy.

SPEAKER_01 53:36

Awesome. Well we're gonna put a link up there on our podcast so everybody can find it um when they need it any last minute advice you'd love to give our families doctor as we finish?

SPEAKER_00 53:47

Well I would just say whether or not um you we wanted it I think we are invited through having a special needs child into a really special stewardship, a special role and we have the gift of understanding the basic meaning of life, I think in many ways by being right up against the challenges in life. I don't know how articulately I'm saying it because I hate to sound glib around these things. There's so many cliches but I have to say I have learned so much about life and love through through my oldest and I'm so grateful for him. And he's just a good soul and I'm glad I've had the chance to be his parent. So um I don't think I could have said that in the beginning but it's really true.

SPEAKER_02 54:49

So I I I'm right there with you and and it's uh it's refreshing I'm just gonna reiterate and say that that is a place to get to and for all those parents that are where we came from and and you couldn't have said it any better than I did that that feeling of powerlessness and of what next and it's it's hard. And so if nothing else that there is a light at the end that there are many people that have found that that it is a place that you can get to uh is enough of a at least a hope that even if the how to get there isn't quite clear, that it is a place that you can end up and it is a wonderful and a purpose driven and a fulfilling place.

SPEAKER_01 55:30

Well wonderful well thank you for making us part of your day doctor thank you for bringing uh so much joy and hope and your insights to our audience and can't thank you enough. Thank you. Awesome well uh please just a reminder please don't uh forget to subscribe so you never miss a conversation that inspires connection wanted to thank our wonderful producer Jesse Palmer and our marketing director Dallan Davis until next time let's go do some good