Mad Mel’s Mic

Growing Up Together And Facing PTSD After Policing

• Melissa Smith • Season 2 • Episode 8

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Season 2, Episode 8

We talk with my brother Matthew about our messy, funny sibling history and how my policing career changed the way we both saw the world. He shares what it felt like watching my PTSD unfold, what he got wrong at first, and what helped him learn how to support me with patience and faith. 
• where “Fez” comes from and what it says about our childhood 
• the age gap between us and why we clashed so hard 
• the confidence shift Matthew sees when I join the police 
• what first responder exposure can do over time 
• how PTSD shows up later even when you think you coped 
• what helplessness looks like for family on the outside 
• why music becomes an outlet when words fail 
• the guilt and uncertainty of visiting and supporting 
• what Matthew learns about stigma and men getting help 
• why healing has no fixed timeline and patience matters 
You can find me on Facebook and Instagram and don't forget to like and follow. 

Songs of the week:

Linkin Park - Heavy is the Crown

https://youtu.be/ZAt8oxY0GQo?si=0WGCoxmQN2x9d1Pz

Harvest - There is a Peace

https://youtu.be/YWmH9a4gjn4?si=0Vm7_BdLKfhfMR0l


Thought of the week

Romans 12:2 NLT

"Don’t copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God’s will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect."

Welcome And Podcast Purpose

SPEAKER_01

Hey there, welcome to Mad Male's Mike. Thanks for joining me. My name is Melissa and this is a podcast all about me, about my life, about my life with PTSD, about my life with the husband and kids and friends and everything in between. Thanks for tuning in.

SPEAKER_02

Hey everybody, and welcome to Mad Mel's Mike season two. Thanks for joining me today. I have my brother with me and we're going to dive into what it is like growing up together, what time, my time in the police, how PTSD impacted both of us, and how our relationship has evolved over time. All right, Matthew, before we get into it, I'm handing it over to you. Let's start with Firstly, how are you?

SPEAKER_04

I'm wonderful, thank you, Fez. How are you going?

The Fez Nickname Origin Story

SPEAKER_02

Very good. Well, I'm actually glad you called me Fez. Let's let's start with that because I've had a few people say to me, obviously, the podcast is called Mademoiselle Mike. Um, when I interviewed Emma and Mum and Dad, they all referred to me as Lis, and they're going, How many names have can one person have? And then he goes calling me something else. So where did Fez come from?

SPEAKER_04

It's um oh far out. It was back with our childhood, and so everyone understands there's a seven-year age gap between myself and you. Um, and I think at the time, as a you know, late teen, 17, 18, you know, I've got this 10, 11-year-old sister running around and getting everything. And so I just started calling you ferret because it wouldn't matter where I was, what I was trying to do, you were just annoying the crap out of me. Um and so ferret, and I'm over the years it's just kind of morphed into Fez, which just a shortened version of Ferret, but you'll always be ferret in my eyes.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and it's funny because I know one of your boys calls me Annie Fez, and I actually quite like it. So yeah, keep it up.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, you definitely know that. And they and they know the reason why as well, which is cool.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, because I was a little ferret.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it's a total. That wasn't anything denegrative or demeaning or anything like that. It was just I I didn't know what else to call you, I suppose. Being that young. Yeah, that's no, but this is too boring.

Song Of The Week And Meaning

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. All right, so let's start with the song of the week. And as all my guests on here, I give it over to um who I'm interviewing as to the song of the week. So what's this week's one, Matthew?

SPEAKER_04

Um, I've decided to choose Lincoln Park, Heavy is the Crown.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, nice. All right, so let's have a listen to it now. That was a great song. Thanks for sharing that. And what was your purpose for sharing that?

SPEAKER_04

It's um look, it's been resonating. We we had a tough probably 18 months, two years in business and um sort of personal finance stuff and things like that, which led to us making some fairly significant decisions um which weren't pleasant. And I think this song resonated at the time to me. Heavy is the crown, you know, you've kind of bought it on yourself. Um, this is the life that I chose and working for myself for a very, very long time. And I don't know, it just kind of, I suppose while I was having a bit of a pity party, it just really resonated with you know, this you've only got yourself to blame as as such.

Childhood Gap And Sibling Dynamic

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, I like it. So thank you. Um in that one answer, you've answered my next question, so I'm not gonna have to ask you that one. All right, let's get into the nitty-gritty of growing up together and the sibling dynamic. What was your earliest memory of us growing up together?

SPEAKER_04

There was, as I mentioned, early uh um seven years difference.

SPEAKER_02

So can I just you know, even was it seven or six? I always thought it was six.

SPEAKER_04

I always thought it was seven. Well, I'm 78, January 78. What are you? 84. Ah, well, six. Yeah, okay. So I'm glad we're doing this interview. I get to learn more about the sister. Um, no, so six years. So yeah, even still, there's there's a significant gap, right? And Emma was only 17 months, I think, younger than me. So we were fairly tight. Um, and and uh as we were, but just different. Um, you know, so when I was 10, you were four. When I was 16, you were 10. When I was 20, you were 14, you know. So there was that gap, and the things that I was going through were unrelatable to you and what you were sort of going through. And plus, you were the youngest. I mean, you were the favourite, and you got away with everything. And I got a wooden spurn if I didn't put the knives and forks away properly, and here you are running around causing havoc without any consequence whatsoever.

SPEAKER_02

And we all know as parents now, we all know what it's like because by the time I had Cliff the third, you sort of don't care.

SPEAKER_03

You got four. It's like by the time Mayor come along, it's like, oh, do whatever you want, I can't be bothered.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, I don't even know where everybody is most of the time. But um, but yeah, so that was but one of the I suppose one of the funniest things, you were just a horrible sleep walker, sleep talker. And I can remember I had the room closest to mum and dad, and then you were next to me, and then Emma was at the end. Um, and I'd just be woken up to you literally sprinting up and down the hallway, and we had a very, very long hallway, it was probably 20 meters long, and then you do go up and down, up and down four or five times, and then literally sit cross-legged at the foot of your door, just asleep. And it scared the absolute crap out of me. I actually thought back then you were, you know, possessed possessed, and uh we need to carry our next is 10 years of age, but uh, but yeah, I mean that was cool. I um I remember in your room as well, mum used to do that. I forget what it's called, but some sort of artwork painting. Um yeah. I I I don't know what it's exactly called, but yeah, I do it's almost like a paint by numbers type thing. Yeah, that's right. Yep. Yeah, and it just I remember just said, please be patient, you know, God isn't finished with me yet. And um, and I think we can have that on hanging on our wall till the day we die, all of us. But um, but yeah, I I remember that. Um I remember as you got older, um, you're a bit of a wild child. You used to jump out the fly screen window and go and do what you needed to do and all this sort of stuff. Um and again, you know, as the as a youngest, as I said, I used to get in trouble for looking the wrong way, holding I used to get in trouble if I wasn't holding the torch correctly while dad was trying to fix a mole or the car.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, we all get in deal for that.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and you know, you are jumping out of windows and stuff like that. So my my fondest memory, I think, and I I I suggest this is um something that runs through the youngest kids or the youngest, you know, sibling or son or daughter, um, is the confidence. Yeah, I think as a as as the first child, even the second child somewhat, I mean, you're raised definitely differently, um, and you're probably a little more conscious of um your actions and decisions. And I see Edward now, and I saw in you as well, just this level of confidence, which I always loved. You had that self-confidence and um never scared to hold back your thoughts and things like that. So I really respected that and I still do even now.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, nice. Thank you. Um, and I think you have touched on it a bit, but how would you have described me honestly as a kid?

SPEAKER_04

Oh, great. I mean, um, and and again, I got my peas at 17. Um, I was a penal an apprentice penal bed at then, and as soon as I got my peas, I was gone. You know, I wasn't at home much um exploring the world and doing other things that I probably shouldn't have been doing myself. But um so that would have put you at around, you know, 11 or 12. So there wasn't a great deal of you know, one-on-one connection, if that makes sense. I was sort of home for dinner a lot of the times and stuff like that. But um I I I think you were a great kid, you know. As I said, you were confident. Um, you certainly were respectful and stuff like that of mum and dad. And um yeah, that's pretty much all I can remember, really.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I think when you say respectful of mum and dad, I think that was probably partly fear as well. I'm still scared of them.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, me too. Yeah, I'm 48. Yeah, that's right, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. Um, all right. So what and it was it is hard because there is such an age gap between us, and I think our relationship has sort of evolved differently as we've gotten older. But what was our dynamic growing up? Like, would you say we were mates or rivals or a bit of both?

SPEAKER_04

A bit of both, yeah. I mean, we're both very similar personalities. Yeah, we are. Um, so we often clashed, and I think the older you got as well when you, you know, you went through your teens and became an adult, that was probably when we probably clashed the most, I suppose, because you know, it wasn't as though I was 17 fighting with an 11-year-old, it became more sort of mid-20s fighting with an adult. Um, but again, it was just because we're the same uh personality. I can see that with Harrison and Edward now, and my kids, and particularly me and Harrison. Um, we share the same nature. Thomas and Ava are very much like Kelly, so it's got that good dynamic within the household. But um, but yeah, we'll but when we had when we were going good, we were going good, you know. We we had a lot of fun together, um, outdoors and indoors, and even doing the dishes and stuff like that. Um yeah, so I yeah, deaf, yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_02

I from my memory, I would say looking back, we were either best of mates or worst of enemies. Yeah, like there was sort of wasn't sort of nothing in between. We were either blue and because we're both stubborn enough and determined enough to get what we want, but then when we were both on the same page, we were love and life together.

SPEAKER_04

Um I agree, and that's exactly like Harrison and Edward, and you know, you can see them they're best of mates, and at the click of fingers, they just want to murder each other.

SPEAKER_02

Yep, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

All right, and and I think it's good. I I actually I I think it's good. I I've learned a lot over life, and I couldn't think of anything worse than sitting at a dinner table and everyone just nodding their head agreeing with everything. Oh, hell no.

SPEAKER_02

But that doesn't teach everybody anything either.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that's right, exactly. So I think the dynamics of us growing up and now as both adults and parents, um, I think it's brilliant, honestly.

SPEAKER_02

All right, so if they made a movie about our childhood, who would play us? Who would what? Sorry? Who would play us?

SPEAKER_04

Oh dear. Um well, just I mean, trying to be as humble as I can here, but Daniel Craig jumps to mind initially for me.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, yeah, fair enough. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Um, I don't know. Um it's uh I do love the action movies and stuff like that. So I imagine if they're making a movie, they're really going to play um play up the the bad stuff we did and the fun stuff that we did. Um so yeah, probably an actor that's you know a bit cheeky and outgoing and yeah, I definitely agree.

SPEAKER_02

For me, I'd probably say somebody, I don't know, Will Ferrell rings to mind for you. Yeah, and I'd go, I'd go someone like Jennifer Lawrence or um um or Margot Robbie, someone hot.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. So I'm happy to assist them with the acting.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, sounds good.

Confidence And Clashes Growing Up

SPEAKER_04

Sounds good.

SPEAKER_02

All right, so what did you think when I joined the police?

SPEAKER_04

Um, I was pretty scared for you. Um I I can't remember now. I think I might have been out bush as a jackaroo at the time um when you decided that.

SPEAKER_02

So I was 18 at the academy, so that would have put you what, 24?

SPEAKER_04

24. Oh no, so I would have been back in Sydney then. I was married at 22, so we'll probably live in a fly park. But either way, yeah, that initial thought of like honestly, I was so excited for you. I I think um compared to probably a lot of female police officers, you were really inept for it. Um, just with your physical stature and also, you know, being raised on a few acres with rifles and stuff like that. So you were no stranger to those sorts of things. And I actually remember one of your first shoots, I think you got close on 100% compared to a lot of the other cadets, and I think that's just being surrounded by that sort of stuff. Um but on the flip side, I was genuinely scared as well. Yeah, um, we grew up at Schofield, so we're pretty close to Mount Druid and stuff like that, where you ended up. I went to Tafet and Mount Druid, so I was no stranger as well with the goings on um around there, and I did quite a lot of work around there as well. So, yeah, I was both genuinely excited for you and very, very nervous as well. Not nervous for your capability, but nervous of what you would see and nervous of what was out there because we we had a great childhood, but it was very sheltered.

SPEAKER_02

100% it was.

SPEAKER_04

And we certainly weren't street wise at all, in my opinion. I mean, I rode the pushy to Schofields, but you know, it was an 80-kilometre farm road, really. Um other than driving to North Ride and stuff like that. We never really had any exposure to the city or um to those sort of bad places either. And so, yeah, I was I was a bit concerned.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and that's like I think in hindsight, particularly as a parent now myself, I can see that. Like people have asked me, like, what would you do if one of your kids joined the cops? And I certainly wouldn't discourage it because it was a great job, but I would be fearful and concerned. And I and I remember um and I spoke about this at when I interviewed mum and dad, that I remember mum saying to me, and I can't remember how long I've been in the job or not, but she said more so if um cops turned up at my door, I knew something would happen.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and yeah, it's pretty it's a pretty horrible thought. And while you while you dry your eyes, Fez. Um I'll touch a bit on that too. See, I've I've always wanted to be military from as young as I can remember. Um that's all I remember one in to now, yeah. And I'll you know, it wasn't, I think I was 13 or 14 um that I was properly diagnosed with a missing nerve running from the back of the cochlea to the brain. Um, so I'm totally deaf in my left ear, and that that proper broke me. But I reflect on that often and think, wow, what a different outcome my life would be. I'd there's a possibility that I would never have married Kelly and stuff like that. And I often think with my boys, I've got three boys. Um, if some of if one of them wanted to pursue a career in the armed forces, I would the same as what it was for you, I would genuinely be excited because I think it's a wonderful career, and there's so many opportunities within the armed forces, not just Kennan fodder. Um, but that very thing, I mean, you watch movies or you know, dockos and all the rest of it, and you see those people knocking on the front door, it's like, oh, I don't know whether I would handle it, and to think that I was sort of encouraged that. Um, yeah, I get it.

SPEAKER_02

It's it's yeah, it's it's a fine line, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04

Um, but again, like where do you draw the line though, Fez? Do you do do we not do things based on the ultimate fear of the worst outcome? I mean we could not we could apply that to every part of our lives, you know. Should I become an entrepreneur, particularly in you know, this day and age with war and stuff like that? I mean, you wouldn't leave the house if you were motivated by fear or yeah, or whatever. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's exactly right. So um, how did you see me during that time? Did I seem different at all while I was in the job? Like, did you see any changes in my personality and things like that?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. There was a definitive change in your personality um for the better. Um there I I watched a young girl grow up to be a teenager and then grow up to be a young adult and then join the coppers. And and because I mean you're in Goldwyn for some time, so there was significant breaks um in between, you know, visitations or whatever when we caught up. And yeah, the confidence that you um built during that time, even in the academy, and then over the years as well, was significant. Honestly, it was profound how you went from and you weren't a shy recluse as such, but definitely like you yeah, you put that badge on and you became this superpower.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's it's funny because I never saw that. Um, but it's interesting to see different people's perspectives on that change.

SPEAKER_04

Um so you've heard that from a few people?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, I think so. Like for me, I know that there was change. Like I know spending um that amount of time in the cops, I became very cynical. And I was the type of person, and I think that just comes with the nature of the job where it's like, oh and I know the law says innocent until proven guilty, but we as the police sort of had the persona of you're guilty until you prove innocent. Like so, yeah, I did become very, very cynical, but yeah, and I think that played out in conversations as well when we met.

SPEAKER_04

Um you know, I'm I'm forever the optimist, and that's got me into some strife as well, being, you know, the massive risk taker. Thankfully, Kelly's quite opposite, uh, which has kind of leveled it out. But um, yeah, definitely in conversations and stuff like that. When you had an opinion, um it was that was you you became a good sparring partner, that's for sure. Um and and let's not beat around the bush. I I'm always one for a good hen peck. Um I always knew how to get under your skin, so I probably played on that a little bit as well. You still got to do. That's that's the joys of being a big brother.

SPEAKER_02

Yep, yeah. And what was it like for you knowing the kind of things I might be exposed to on the job?

SPEAKER_04

Oh, horrible. As I said earlier, I I knew what was out there, particularly in the domestic violence side of things around Mount Druid and Bidwell, Shouvi, all of those suburbs to Gear, um, Emmerton. Uh yeah, it was that and and that's what I you know touched on before. I mean, to go from such a sheltered life. Um, and when I say sheltered, just to clarify for the listeners, it's not as though we were locked up every night or whatever. It was just that we grew we grew up in a Christian house and stuff like that. So we just weren't exposed to drinking and violence, and we had great parents that didn't beat on each other and stuff like that. So for you to be exposed to that coming from a place of not knowing it, yeah, um, that was a genuine fear. I mean, yeah, talk about a baptism fire.

Joining The Police And Real Fears

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and I think Mount Druid was certainly a sink or sim sink or swim station, and you didn't have much of a choice but to get through it. But I certainly learnt very quickly that there is an other side of the world, and we were very sheltered from that other side of the world. Um which which in hindsight is actually quite nice, but yeah, and I certainly wouldn't change our childhood at all, but yeah, it was certainly it did expose me to a lot of things which changed my perspective on the world, yeah, and not necessarily for the better.

SPEAKER_04

No, I I agree, and and I think that not it's not just um insulated to yourself either and Carl, but um every I mean even Ambo's every first responder is really they um they're all in the same boat, and I it just takes a special person, you know. I I've never yeah, I've dreamt of being in the army and stuff like that, and but and I think that's completely different to being a first responder because you're just dealing with but you're dealing with a demographic which is bottom of the barrel, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_02

And there's a there's a saying in the cops that you deal with five percent of the cop the population 95% of the time, and that's what it was. Like we just like you would go to these houses time and time again and you'd know them by name because it was just that repetitive cycle. Um so yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And I remembered stories you're telling me of even chicks getting pregnant just to get the baby bonus and stuff like that, and then you'd see the baby get born because you'd called out there so often, but they've got new TVs and new PlayStation. Oh, 100%. The baby gets neglected and just the sad state of affairs.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. Um so with my diagnosis, there wasn't a specific lead up. Like for me, my PTSD sort of there was one job the straw that broke the camel's back. Um but what do you remember of that time? So that's going back five years.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I um uh hindsight's horrible and and good, but there were significant um incidents that I recall you um during your time on the police that I knew would have an adverse effect. Um and that was that was way before five years. Um I remember you were part of JERT, I think it was called at the time, which was the juvenile oh yeah, the child abuse squad. Yeah, yep, so you're part of that. And I think Mackenzie was only young, you may have had Rory at the time as well, and and you were on the side of things where you were looking after the kids rather than you know apprehending the actual perpetrators, and uh and I can remember having conversations with you over the phone with you just just describing what you saw, and there's it's not good for a mother. I don't think it's good for any person to to witness what you witnessed. So I I remember that I remember stories out when you were at Wolgott, um, and that was I mean, that was a completely different set of circumstances from Mount Druid, but just just horrible as well with the exposure that you saw with that, and I mean missing persons up in Lightning Ridge, Growen, and all those sorts of places. And I mean, you're only human, you know what I mean? And we all like think we're tough and we can isolate parts of our brain that uh we put them in little pockets or whatever, but subconsciously I knew that they would be affecting you, you know. And it's hard as well because you see those things, but what do you do as a brother? Walk up and say, Hey, listen, you've got to get out. Yeah, um, you can't do that. Um, and you probably didn't recognize it as being um, I don't know, as detrimental as it turned out to be at the time. And so I I think over the years there were certainly heaps of, and I do mean that, heaps of incidents that you witnessed um that led to that straw that broke the camel back. Yeah, I recall that incident, and then there was another incident that really finished you off as such after that major one as well at Orange. Um, and yeah, I mean it just broke my heart every time I would hear it, and there was nothing more I could do other than, you know, whoa, what you know, that's a horrible story, or I hope you're doing okay, or just offer those kind of superficial support.

SPEAKER_02

And there there is nothing like being in the job, you can't pick and choose what jobs you're going to, particularly um when you're in remote regions like Walgart. You're you're the only car on, so you're ready, you have to go. And I would spend a lot of time supervising out in those places, so I was sort of calling the shots and stuff like that. So I had to be the strong one and things like that. And I think that just comes with the nature of the job anyway. But it's funny that you've mentioned like when I was at CAS and those things, because that actually has never come in as any of my trauma. Um they weren't like I know when um shit hit the fan in January 2021, I was having nightmares of car accidents that I had been to 18 years before, which I thought I had dealt with, but like you said, they were in just a pocket of my brain that hadn't ever been resolved and they reared its ugly head again. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And and I think the the period of time which you were part of the cops too, um and and now still having mates in the Ambos and Coppers and Fire is as well. Um only in recent times have they actually addressed these issues and have really have really made an effort. And I take my hat off to them. It's probably 20 years too late, but um, you know, PTSD trauma, you know, you guys turning up first to scene to all of these things does have a does come at a significant cost. And the times where you were seeing these and witnessing these, there was no real, you know, debrief or um mental support or anything like that counselling. And the only reason I say that, it's because nothing compared to what you went through on a day-to-day basis, but when we nearly lost Ava um to that massive brain bleed, um, I I still think that there's times now, and that's that was what, I can't remember, 2016, 2017, so coming on, I don't know, she was 15, so it's four, I don't even know, four or five years ago, but there's still moments.

SPEAKER_02

It was definitely longer than that because I was in the cops.

How Policing Changed Personality

SPEAKER_04

Um, well, there you go. So yeah, and and it just you you think that you deal with it, and you kind of put it the back of your head because you you you've got things to do, you've got people to take care of, you've got kids to parent, you've got money to make, you've got all these different things, so you do put it away, but it never goes until you actually really address the issue at hand. Yeah, and that's why I say I I think it's really good that these guys are getting the support that they need. And I believe there's a massive percentage, and uh it's pretty crazy um the percentage of coppers and ambos and stuff that are off on PTSD, believe. Uh it's a massive percentage now.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's it's huge. Like there's yeah, particularly in the last sort of three or four years, there's been a massive increase in um in spiralling. So yeah. Um, what was it like uh for you seeing that sudden shift in me?

SPEAKER_04

I was horrible. Um you know, you can't sympathize because you've never been through it, but you can certainly empathize. Um, but there's there's nothing you can do other than pray. And the feeling of helpless helplessness like is horrible. And I can only imagine what mum and dad went through, but as a big brother, you just you know, you just I don't know, you just want to reach out and give you a cuddle and in spite of knowing that that's not going to fix anything. Yeah, um, but the the feeling of helplessness witnessing what you went through was massive, and for my whole family, you know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um so from your point of view, what was it uh like watching me deal with PTSD? And I think you've touched on that sort of already as well.

SPEAKER_04

Um what a yeah, just pure helplessness, um sadness, you know, empathy, all of these things went through us. I mean, we visited you. I would have loved to have visited you more. Um, and it's a difficult it's a difficult choice, right? Because you you want to be there all day every day, but I know that that during that time probably would have had an adverse effect as well, um, because you needed the time. Um so you kind of it's it's difficult because you're damned if you do, damned if you don't, you stay at home and you feel guilty for not doing anything, but then when you go, you kind of feel guilty for intruding. Um, and every time I went, I just cleaned out your chocolate drawer anyway.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, you did a pretty good job of that. But in saying that too, I always appreciated your visits as well. Like it was always welcomed. And yes, I know when I was having my inpatient stays, I was there for a purpose. And for me, that was my sole purpose. Like I wasn't there for a holiday or anything like that. I was there for my own mental health, but it is always nice because I just for me, people showing up showed me that I was loved. And I think at that time, particularly my self-worth and my self-love was zero. So knowing that people took the time out of their day to come and see me reassured that yes, I am worthy, I am enough, and that I am loved. So yeah, it certainly didn't go unappreciated, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_04

But and and on the the flip side of that, that's where there was that guilt as well on my part, because there wasn't enough either. Um, so it was it was just really, really, you ask what it was like, it was very, very difficult to navigate. Um I think the biggest thing for me was my ignorance um and almost disbelief to PTSD. I we I was raised on a Gen Xer, so it was kind of, you know, I read something the other day. We'll we're raised on hose water and hard love in comparison to now this generation and the generations past, but um well, so there was definitely an ignorance to that, and I kind of thought, oh, I should be right, you know. Initially that was my probably my first reaction. Oh yes, he's just having a bad day, or you know, and and that's pretty crappy. Um, but then as time evolved and um the PTSD really, really shone through, I'm like, oh, this is actually a thing, hey. And I spend a lot of time researching it actually. Um, there was there was a lot of stuff that you sent to me as well. Um, music's played a massive part of my life. I think music's a great outlet, and some of the songs that you sent to me, um what's his name, Ren? There was a couple of those. I remember watching Ren Christmas one year at Mum and Dad's, and I remember watching it the first time thinking, oh, Fez, you gotta stop listening to this stuff.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I remember.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and and I think I even elaborated on that to you, but I um I know that it's it's it's good um for you to have that as an outlet.

PTSD Turning Point And Hidden Trauma

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And look, music has been a huge part of my journey as well. And like growing up, we all like I was always listening to music. I remember getting in trouble off Emma singing in the shower while she was trying to study. And um, so for me, music has been huge. But when my head first broke, I stopped listening to music altogether and it was gone. Like I couldn't do it, like I'd always have the radio on quietly, so I had a little bit of noise, but there was no sort of enjoyment from music. And I remember um fight song by Rachel Patton came on in the radio one day, and I actually just turned it up and blared it, and I just started boiling my eyes out, and it was at that moment that I started to really enjoy and getting back into my music and really looking at the words and going, what is this saying to me? And I think that's why I continue with the song of the week because it does like in like songs can be interpreted differently, and that's why I always speak about how it affects me, like what I see from that song and stuff like that as well. And hopefully other people can see that as well. So yeah, yeah. Um, were there times where you felt unsure on how to help or like you had to take a step back?

SPEAKER_04

Um, yep. That was most of the time, I think. Um, because you you just don't know, right? You you don't know whether coming in, visiting you, being all happy and jovial, um, and almost carefree, whether that would then affect you. And my brain is probably a lot like yours as well. We probably overthink a lot of things, um, and our brains um never stop. So you kind of as I said, you your motivation, right, is to go into the hospital and really bring love and really bring joy, but I'm always but I was also conscious of going in too overjoyed or too peace-field or that, thinking it might have an adverse effect because then it might play on your head thinking, oh, look at Matt, he just seems so happy and oh, he's not going through what I'm going through, and all the rest of it. So, and then adversely you walk in miserable. Well, that's no help either. So it was probably um the best way to I'm trying to articulate the best I can, but the the journey for you know, mum and dad, Emma and myself was probably as significant as it was for you, but just from a different perspective, if that makes sense. We weren't going through it, our heads weren't broken, um, but we were certainly feeling your your your pain. We were you know crying with you, we were praying for you. I was sending you heaps of Bible verses and all this sort of stuff. So you're always on the forefront of our mind, but what do you do? We've never been through this before. I don't have friends that have been through. I have a few, but a lot of them don't talk out about it, you know, either.

SPEAKER_02

So and I and I think like what the main thing I have learned through this whole PTSD journey is that nobody can help you except yourself. That's right. Yeah. And but it's just having the people walking alongside you saying, I know I can't help you, but I am here, and that that is worth more than anything else in the world. And being and knowing that I had all of you guys, as well as like Carl and the kids and stuff like that as well. That was what sort of helped me get through all of that as well. So um, did you ever feel frustrated, confused, or powerless during that time? And I think you have been touching on it a fair bit anyway.

SPEAKER_04

All three of those things.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. I mean, I'm a bit of a fixer, you know what I mean? So when I see people in pain or in trouble or um hurt or anything like that, I always try to, you know, do what I can to fix their life or you know, to help in whatever way, but there was nothing I could do, which led to frustration.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. All right. So let's go to a few little light things again because we have been quite heavy. Um this is a tricky one. I'm interested how you're going to answer this one. Who's the most stubborn out of the two of us?

SPEAKER_04

Um, probably you.

SPEAKER_03

Ooh.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I'm I'm stubborn, definitely stubborn. Um there's no doubt about that. And you'd only need to ask my wife for 26 years, and she would certainly uh agree with that. But no, and the only reason I was able to say that quickly and emphatically was I used to give you the typewriter quite often. Oh, yeah, you did. Um, and I don't know whether you listeners know, but it's basically I used to get Melissa on the ground and then go on a belly and then pretty much slap you across the cheek. Um, which represented a um, which is probably why you've got PTSD, actually, it was you're up with you're not the cops. Um but I remember one of the first times Kelly came to visit, and oh man, this would have been nine, I would have been 19 or something like that. And I chased you, yeah. I chased you down, and and you knew very well I was going to give you the typewriter, and you fought and you fought and you fought and you fought, and I finally got you, and you just laid there. And I'm like, you've just taken the fun out of this um completely. Kelly was mortified as her one of her first visits to the Kruger household.

SPEAKER_03

Like, yeah, I go and then you still married him. Like, who does that say more about you or him?

SPEAKER_04

She's a yeah, she's a brave woman, but um, but yeah, it's to me that really solidifies your stubbornness.

SPEAKER_02

It's funny because I'm I would almost put us as equally as stubborn, but yeah, I probably would pip you a little bit at the post with that.

SPEAKER_04

I think it's a woman thing as well, and I with the greatest respect, you know what I mean? Like if you if you were to compare male and female of the same stubbornness, I would like to suggest that the woman would always win.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and and that's a very good comment to make because as you know, I've done a couple of ultra marathons and stuff like that, and women are much more determined to finish than men, and you find a lot more men get their do not finish as opposed to the women because of our determination and stubbornness for want of a better word, as well as trying to push it through. So who knows where that stems from, but yeah. What's one habit or saying of mine that you reckon sums me up perfectly?

SPEAKER_04

What a habit or saying of you that you say, Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I don't think I really have any.

SPEAKER_04

No, I I can't think of anything. I think you've said a few times recently, it is what it is, um which I hate. Um not coming from you. Yeah, that not coming from you specifically. I just hate it. I think it's just such a defeatus term. It is what it is. It's kind of like, oh well, it is what it is, let's just, you know, ignore it, avoid it, move on.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Um, that's why I don't like it at all.

SPEAKER_02

It is funny because I have a different perspective. Say it is what it is, you can't change it, but how can we mould around it to make ourselves better as a result of it? So it's funny how we interpret different things, like the same thing differently. So yeah. Um, if our relationship was a weather forecast, what would it be?

SPEAKER_04

Uh volatile. It'd be it, it actually reminds me of the bloody weather reports that you get every day. It's gonna be chance of sunshine, chance of cloud, chance of storms, hail, tornadoes, um, and and you get through the day and you've had not a drop of rain, it's been sunshine, the whole thing.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it's um that's actually very good.

SPEAKER_04

So I think your or our relationship is wonderful, you know, because we either of us know what we're gonna get. Um I think we're quite moody at times as well, particularly when we're tired. So you start having a when I'm tired. Well, yeah, it's volatile and yeah, the same for you. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well, that's a good one. I like that. All right. So when things were at their hardest for me, how did you personally deal with that?

SPEAKER_04

Um, probably just uh a lot of self-reflection, um, helplessness and prayer.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Definitely a lot of prayer.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And did my experience with PTSD change how you think about mental health?

Supporting Someone In Hospital

SPEAKER_04

Oh, significantly, without question. And as I said to you, I did a lot of research um on it myself because I was sort of ignorant to it and almost, as I said earlier, disbelieved that it was a thing. Um I think it was just almost like I used to think that um it was almost like a scapegoat response. Oh, this is just too hard to do with say I'm just gonna claim PTSD without knowing the actual um diagnosis, I suppose. And by doing that research, I was really, really exposed to um how tragic it is and and how helpless outsiders can be throughout that. Um I mean that one of the biggest things that I researched was time. Um and and I'm such an impatient guy, I like to push things. I've I've learned not to do that only recently, but um when you see someone like yourself going through PTSD without the full comprehension of what it actually is and how it affects the person or affects you, um yeah, it's it's hard work because you just don't know what to do. And again, from the outset, thinking that it was just a thing, almost made up, um, just by pure ignorance, and let's face it, it's only really become more and more um um researched and more widely known now. Of um, I mean, imagine these guys back in Second World War, Vietnam. I mean, the Vietnam, you know, vets and stuff like that, they had nothing like this, and now you look back and think far out.

SPEAKER_02

Talking about if you look at AUPA, AUPA 100% had PTSD from World War II, but it was never spoken about. Like we weren't allowed to be a very good thing. That's exactly right. So, yeah, there had been a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04

And I think even as a band, I think I think there's been such a significant um change in the male and again struggling to articulate it, but years and years ago, no one spoke about it, right? Now, I had a bit of a rough time last year, and I sought the help of a psychologist, and I had you know multiple sessions there, and it was brilliant. But for me, it was so humbling and almost humiliating that a man would have to seek help. Yeah, but we live in a day and age now where it's actually okay.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and it's the stigma behind it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's so oh you're what sort of a man are you? You know, you you can't cry in public. And um, and I mean, growing up, seeing my father cry once, you know, in pretty much my whole childhood, and that was when he slipped the disc and he was just in extraordinary pain. I mean, we that was just how he grew up, you know. You didn't cry, you you toughened up and you got on with life, and um and so that was a massive learning curve for me.

unknown

Um

SPEAKER_04

um watching you go through it, but then researching and actually learning what it was about. But with that, also understanding that it's it's a thing and you need to speak up. And you know, whether that's just day-to-day communication with your spouse and or your best mate or your loved ones, I think it's so imperative that it's done. And and I think now that's why we've got these helplines and we have these different avenues for people that are PTSD, they're suicidal, they suffer from depression or any of these mental health issues. I think it's paramount. And but I own but I truly believe that it's only recent that that has actually come to light. And again I really feel sorry for you know our forefathers that never really had that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And in your defense, like you said that you thought it was people just ticking a box of PTSD to get out of what something that they didn't want to do. Like before I was diagnosed I certainly believed for that as well like we would have people leaving the cops with PTSD I went oh they're just after the payout or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_04

So they're just stigma but let's be honest we we literally just called them sooks like toughen up you're a buff ed like yeah yeah um was there anything about PTSD that surprised you or challenged your assumptions the whole lot surprised me yeah um and I just explained that um yeah yeah the whole lot surprised me and it challenged me yeah 100% but someone that likes to research things before or have an opinion and or you know if you go to market or whatever um just just research and it was amazing. And it's helped me now as as friends to people that are going through it as well. Yeah is brilliant.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah that's good. What do you think people don't realize about supporting a family member with PTSD?

Learning What PTSD Really Is

SPEAKER_04

A lot I don't think they understand anything about it. I think they're probably a lot like me or a lot like I was in that they just think that's a it's just another thing as such. And so my recommendation I was just going to say my recommendation for anyone that knows anyone that is suffering trauma or PTSD or anything like that spend a few hours researching it. Learn I mean the things that I learnt by research of how to attack it, how to be supportive but also how to deal with it myself as an outsider so highly recommend just yeah get some help yourself yourselves.

SPEAKER_02

I think it's it's hard to know about something until you're put in the position where you need to understand it. Well you don't know what you don't know right that's exactly right so and until you're put in that spot where you go oh shit now we've got PTSD that we need to look at then you become aware of it as well. So yeah like you said you don't know what you don't know.

SPEAKER_04

So as long as you're something that you don't expect either you know you don't have friends or family that join the armed forces that join you know first responders you don't have friends that are doctors and you don't have all of these friends that you do life with that you prepare yourself for them having PTSD um as I said it was probably easier to prepare for a knock on the door than what it was to prepare because you you just don't live your life expecting the worst right particularly you know an optimistic sort of a person and family oh yeah with hang on guys let's all huddle together we need to expect Melissa's going to get PTSD it just never happened no no and can you remember remember a moment where you noticed I was getting stronger and fighting my feet again yeah you bet um yeah that was a massive answer to prayer um and it's only probably been recently if I was honest probably the last 12 months I'd like to suggest um and yeah I mean the times that I visited you in hospital I was scared because um I had the perception of um oh no feasor's back in again and it's almost now and hear my heart here let me finish but it was almost like oh she's just going for another escape or um things like that and particularly the third visit you know I'm thinking oh far out she should be better by now and yeah um all this sort of stuff so again ignorance in terms of the speed of um healing and um and getting better but in answer to your question yeah there was um and it wasn't like a a light switch moment where it was just oh Melissa's back um you know there there was a series of things that I witnessed over the past five years particularly the past 12 years that um I noticed that was very encouraging and and very positive. And it was just a lot of it was just your demeanor your voice um there was times there that even your attitude and your speech was quite defeatist um negative um and yeah it was not that all hope was lost but there do you know what I mean like there was hope lost almost that tone in your voice it was like oh yeah another day that I've got to battle through or anything like that. So yeah I just think um yeah watching and listening your the change of attitude and even the way that you talk and look at life was probably um a real telltale sign for me that you're on the up and up.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah yeah definitely and for me um so I haven't been back in hospital since August last year so it's been it like that's been my longest gap in between hospital stays and I think that last hospital stay was the the point where I could start to see my life picking up again and and I can I can see that and I know other people can see that as well. So I think that's refreshing not only for myself but for my listeners as well to know that there is light at the end of the tunnel that we just need to keep pushing through those hard days because they're not going to be hard days forever.

SPEAKER_04

Although when you're in it it feels like it um but yeah no dead can I just say something that may help your listeners as well in relation to PTSD from from from an outsider looking in don't rush the process would probably be the the biggest recommendation I would have because again there were a lot of times that I thought okay she's on some meds she's gone to the hospital when she walks out she's going to be fixed. And when that doesn't occur I became frustrated and I don't think anyone listening should become frustrated just be supportive and understand that there is a process and unfortunately there's no time frame on the healing with these things um and where where I think I'm very routine based and I'm very organized and meticulous and you know that very well because you'd come to my office and move one of my computer screens three millimeters and I'd get upset because I knew that you'd do it. So so being someone that is you know very not not time driven but very driven um and very um yeah routine based and all that it's very very easy to look from the outside in and think okay she's gone through this particular checklist at the bottom now it's all over let's get on with life and it's not the case so my biggest recommendation is don't put a time on it um as I did uh because it's just frustrating um and and it's frustrating because there almost becomes an expectation on the person with PTSD to then get better and when that doesn't happen you start questioning whether what they're doing is the right thing to do. So yeah just just continue being supportive and just be patient.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah I think that's I think patience is the best recommendation because it everybody's timeline's different and um yeah it's not a magic wand cure and I know for myself and everybody else who has PTSD it's something that we're gonna have lifelong. So there might come a time in six months time where I'm back in hospital and that's okay. It doesn't mean that I'm all the way back at the bottom of where I was but I've just had a little hiccup and things like that. So don't be discouraged when um your loved ones are looking like they're going backwards but that's that health saying like two steps forward one step backwards you're still making progress but it yeah it just looks different.

SPEAKER_04

So I think that's important for everyone to note is that it's okay. You know, as as long as we don't regress back to where we were but as you said you're constantly moving forward and it's that can I acrimin you know constant never ending improvement um which I think helps.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah definitely um what have you learnt about resilience or strength through all of this both of those things are fundamental to living life.

Signs Of Healing And Patience

SPEAKER_04

Yeah full stop regardless of your circumstances and um yes you need to have those in every circumstance as a parent as a husband as a wife as a business owner um particularly with PTSD as well but it it's it's just paramount I mean going back to what we're sort of talking about there I mean just the marriage just marriage you need you need resilience and and you need effort um and I think anyone with PTSD needs to make an effort as hard as that sounds and as brush as that sounds there has to be some there is always a way forward right um yeah but you've got to you've got to do it. I mean no one can get you up out of the bed Fez to to get yourself to hospital and you did all of that yourself with pure resilience you know what I mean and you've I'm not saying that I mean yeah we shouldn't we shouldn't look back at the past right but only to learn from it. And and we can use that in every aspect of life as well good decisions bad decisions um and I'm not saying that life's not going to throw any more curveballs at you in fact I believe that we're all going to um get a lot more throughout our life but without resilience and stamina and positivity and a willingness to actually move forward well you won't move forward yeah yeah and I think that's important to learn as well um that you need to have that willingness to take that next step.

SPEAKER_02

And even if that next step is hard it's like ripping the Bandaid off.

SPEAKER_04

So what's something you're proud of me for even if I don't say it enough your resilience your stubbornness I mean it just encapsulates everything that we've spoken of man and you're now doing this podcast as a way of moving forward um whether you recognise that or not I can see that it is and it was probably a decision on your part to do so. Yeah I'm just so proud of you for sticking your hand up I think um recognizing that you had an issue and dealing with it. I think a lot of people probably hide under the covers for way too long probably longer than they should um which only makes the problem worse.

SPEAKER_02

So a couple of things I'm proud of so yeah they're both of them if you could say one thing to me now as my brother about this whole journey what would it be?

SPEAKER_04

God is good through that God is very kind he's forgiving he's helping us every day of the week every minute of the day um and yeah to see well to see you go through what you did um and to come out and again I'm not saying this is the end of the road uh it's probably only a small chapter in a very big book but um yeah to for you to have faith in the outcome is just significant yeah yeah all right so before we wrap up as you know you are also in charge of the thought of the week um and so what is this one Matthew all right my thought of the week which I've thought long and hard about which kind of ties into a song I'm kind of hoping I can finish with as well.

SPEAKER_02

Do you want to do the song first or the thought first?

SPEAKER_04

Um no I'll I'll do the thought first being that we're here um so I'm just gonna read a Bible verse which is from Romans 12. I'm gonna read in three versions it won't take long um it says don't copy the behavior and customs of this world but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think then you will learn to know God's will for you which is good and pleasing and perfect. That was in the NLT the New Living Translation the New International Version is do not conform to the pattern of this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is his good pleasing and perfect will and finally the new King James and do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind that you may prove what is good and acceptable and perfect will of God and when I when I first started reading that verse I actually thought that you know do not conform to the ways of the world is you know don't be a murderer don't you know do all of those things but I actually think that what God is trying to tell us here is don't be anxious. Don't conform to the anxieties of the world the pressures of the world the things that we you know we think we need to do and um I I think that we just need to be filled with peace um and it's difficult. I'm a pretty controlling person as such where I like to know the outcome and I'll push the outcome of certain things but it's only been recently that I've really learned to let go and let God and I think throughout your journey I think that's been a significant factor in your um reparation in your in your healing because you've had to let go you you can't you can't change the outcome out of a lot of things. And yeah so I just thought I'd finish on that thought so for anyone out there trying and striving and trying to push and bend their um I don't know their their healing for PTSD or for anything that they suffer or even just dealing with the day to day life anyone that's trying to push an outcome just give it to God hey um yeah and is this where you want to do the next song yeah let's listen to this what was that um it's called Peace or There is a Peace hang on one sec. Is it by again a song it's song by Harvest and the song is called There is a Peace.

Faith Focused Thought And Closing

SPEAKER_06

Alright let's have a listen to that now you've been telling you that was a beautiful song I really like that.

SPEAKER_04

What really clear yeah I think just the you know we we we try to do things on our own volition we try to do things from um our own motivations and stuff like that but in that song it just really really um emphasizes that there is a peace we we actually can have peace yeah when we trust that God will give it to us and that's comforting to know absolutely um is there anything else you want to add quickly before we wrap up keep doing what you're doing Fez you'll bloody awesome you're a fantastic sister you're a great mum you're an awesome wife you're an awesome daughter to mum and dad um you're positive you're motivated um you've got a really really amazing creative brain which I certainly don't have um just keep doing what you're doing eh I'm so proud of you I honestly I I can't articulate how proud I am of you and particularly with just your achievements I mean let's just you know focus on those more so than the PTSD but I mean your achievements in life have been amazing um what you've done and the three beautiful kids that you've raised and put up with Carl for so many years. Yeah that's been love you uncle Carl uh put up with me for so many years but um no I I'm as I said I'm just so proud of you I just thank you for this opportunity and I'm sorry that it's taken so long to get me no don't don't be sorry it's awful in its own time and this is when it was meant to come out so yeah yeah absolutely and um I just keep on doing what you're doing I'm I'm proud to see I'm pumped to see where this podcast will take you and where the next 40 odd years will take you. I think it's just I honestly I I I sometimes think that we go through things um but I think we go through adverse times borne on by the the devil borne on by the enemy because he is so crap scared of the significance that we play in this lifetime and I'm really really excited to see um where God's taking you because he's certainly been through the ringer um and I think if we focus on the what next that's that's pretty damn exciting.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah no thank you I really appreciate that and it's been good having a chat and like I said um to mum and dad after theirs I think it's been quite cathartic for me to be interviewing you guys to be able to talk about how my journey has impacted you as well. And I know you said that this podcast has helped me and I this podcast has been a saviour. Like it's been my dear diary. It's it's so cathartic for me to be able to raise my concerns and my worries and where I am at that time when I'm recording. And I always make it very um clear that if I'm having a bad day I don't sugarcoat it. And I think that's important for listeners to know that it's okay to have a bad day and things like that. So yeah look I'm very interested to see where this podcast takes me as well. But yeah so thanks for being part of this I really really appreciate it and I can't say that enough and hearing your side of things means more than you could probably realize. So thank you again. And to everybody listening thanks for tuning in and I'll catch you next time. Have a good week and be kind to yourself.

SPEAKER_04

Thanks there.

SPEAKER_01

All right thanks Matt Thanks for tuning in to Mad Mail's Mike. I'm Melissa Smith and I hope you've enjoyed listening. You can find me on Facebook and Instagram and don't forget to like and follow. Have a great week and don't forget to be kind to yourself