Jeff Explains How Alcohol Masked PTSD Until It Finally Caught Up

Season 2, Episode 11

***TRIGGER WARNING: TALK OF SUICIDE, DEATH AND OTHER TRAUMA RELATED INCIDENTS**** Please listen with caution and seek help where needed.

We sit down with Jeff, a medically retired police officer, to talk honestly about PTSD, alcohol dependence, and the moment his body and mind forced him to stop running. He shares how AA, inpatient treatment, and real connection help him rebuild family life and stay alive when shame and stigma try to keep him silent.

• meeting in an outpatient program and what first impressions reveal about trauma and trust 
• what inpatient treatment at St John of God feels like when you are scared and exposed 
• how validation and peer support speed up recovery 
• why cumulative trauma can start years earlier than you think 
• alcohol as a coping mechanism that quietly becomes the enemy 
• the fear of asking for help in policing and the risk of being “punished” for it 
• pancreatitis as a turning point and what AA gives in early sobriety 
• rebuilding marriage and parenting after quitting drinking 
• the PTSD breaking point, suicidal thoughts, and the power of someone intervening 
• coping strategies without alcohol, including service and routine in AA 
• where to start if you need support, including GP pathways, AA, detox, and rehab 
• a funeral letter that makes the case for reaching out early

You can find me on Facebook and Instagram, and don't forget to like and follow.

Song of the Week:

Somebody Save Me - Eminem & Jelly Roll

https://youtu.be/Vwa0HenQMi4?si=heG7LPvz-MorhMFs

Thought of the Week:

"To my friends, family and colleagues. Please, if you are struggling with an addiction, reach out for help. If you let your addiction ruin you, you will more than likely lose the most important things in the world to you. I am unfortunately proof of that. I am 176 days sober. Please reach out if you need help. / wish / would have reached out earlier and forced my demons. It is never too late to reach out for help. You are important and you are worthy."

Please be kind to yourself and seek help if needed. 

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Jeff

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Hey there, welcome to Mad Mel's Mic. Thanks for joining me. My name is Melissa and this is a podcast all about me.

SPEAKER_05 0:06

About my life. About my life with PTSD. About my life with husband and kids and friends and everything in between.

SPEAKER_04 0:14

Thanks for tuning in.

SPEAKER_05 0:15

Welcome back to Mad Mel's Mic. Today's episode is a really special one to me because this isn't just someone I've invited on. This is someone I actually met during my time where things weren't exactly easy. We met in an outpatient program at St. John of God, both doing the work, both trying to figure things out. And I've watched his journey since then. And honestly, it's something I really respect. He's a former police officer, medically retired with PTSD, and now living a sober life and heavily involved in AA, helping others who are walking a similar path. But more than any of that, he's a really genuine, solid human being. So I'm really grateful to have him here today. Let's start simple. Can you give me a snapshot of who you are today, what life looks like for you right now? And I want to go back to where we first met. Do you remember walking into Sanct John of God that first day? What was going on in your world at that point? So welcome, Jeff. Before we get into it, I'll just say welcome here. Um thanks for jumping on and doing this. I know this is a tough thing to talk about, but I know it's something that you're very passionate about. And I know that you can share a lot of insights to other people that I actually can't share as well. So let's um how about you give us a snapshot of who you are today?

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Um, yes, thanks for having me on the show, Mel. Much appreciated. Um, been following quite contently as you've started Mad Mel's mic, and very proud of uh what you've created and uh and and the help that people are getting from your show. So very happy to be on it. Um snapshot as to who I am today. Um I'm a 42-year-old uh male who has a wife and two uh lovely. One's 12, but you may as well call her a teenager because she acts like one, and a 15-year-old daughter. Um I live in the Central Coast, New South Wales. Um, yeah, medically retired from the police in 2023. Um, pretty much role at the moment is uh stay-at-home dad, and um which is sort of being made redundant because now both my girls are at high school. Um I'm sort of getting uh filled in with more chores and things like that to do during the day by the wife. So I sort of wish I had more picking up and dropping off to do because now it's more washing and cleaning around the house. So uh, but um yeah, apart from that, yeah, no, pretty, pretty basic life, just living the uh the life on workers compensation, which is lots of appointments, uh lots of um, you know, uh yeah, like psychology, psychiatry, uh GP. Um I do EP appointments as well, um, see a dietitian and and all those sorts of things. But yeah, really just working to the ROSF that's given to me, and then on top of that, like yeah, getting the girls to their activities and things like that, uh, is just basically my my day-to-day.

SPEAKER_05 3:18

You're very busy.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

It is, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:22

And there's a lot of message in me in between all of that as well.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

There is, yeah, yeah. And obviously, yeah. Um, yeah, the uh the the girls in their sports, then my eldest has two jobs, so she's uh you know, always got me toing and frowing her to work, and uh, you know, she only gets the sort of shorter shifts, the the three to four hour shifts. So uh she might get two of those in a day. So you you have the fun of um not only going and picking her up once, but sometimes twice, which is uh which is very exciting, um racking up lots of cases on the car. And she doesn't seem to understand the um the price of fuel's gone up and uh it's expensive to come and pick her up for the uh two-hour break she has at lunch, but um, you do what you do.

SPEAKER_05 4:06

Yeah, that's exactly right. Now, just quickly as well, like I know I have interviewed a few different people already on this episode, and other than my sister Emma, Jeff is literally the only person I've interviewed so far who has listened to every single one of my episodes, bar maybe except the last couple of ones. I'm not sure how up to date he is, but yes, he is very um meticulous on listening to every of my episodes and always giving me feedback, and that's something that I really appreciate. So thank you for listening to everything.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Oh, that's fun. No, it's been a pleasure, and I I really enjoy your episodes. I I get um I get satisfaction and um a lot of enjoyment out of listening to them, the different topics that you do. And uh, you know, the other week you interviewed your brother, and I just thought that was an absolute smashing episode. Like um, you know, like it that uh you know it really hit home with me. My brother and I have a very solid relationship where out of my family, he's the one that understands my PTSD. Um, and you know, I could see that in your brother as well when you when you interviewed him, and I could relate heavily to that as well. So yeah, you your episodes are very relatable.

First Impressions And How We Met

SPEAKER_05 5:20

Thanks, Jeff. All right, so let's get into how we met. So we met through the outpatient program. Do you remember your first impression of me?

SPEAKER_00 5:29

Um, I was actually a little bit worried or like um, yeah, I I don't know, like you, you, you, you hold yourself um, you know, quite um uh you hold yourself really well. And I I sort of I was I I don't know, I'm a bit of a shy sort of a fella. So when you when I first met you, I was a bit sort of like, you know, um a high and a bit cheapish and and uh didn't really sort of um oh how would I say it was it was confronting as though meeting new people for me is is uh is hard. Um my social um uh elements, I suppose, have been removed since I got PGSD. So meeting someone new in an environment like that where you know not only you're meeting this person, but you're gonna be living with this person for a week. Um but I think it wasn't long before we started finding that we had um very similar um lifestyles, like you know, married children, um, you know, uh gone along, found had had a similar sense of humour, uh, and we were having fun like not long after that at all.

SPEAKER_05 6:44

Yeah, can't believe you were sheepish around me. It's funny. Yeah, but look, I can totally understand that as well because I have spent a significant amount of stays at the hospital. I'm quite comfortable there. So there was probably almost that air of arrogance that you probably would have perceived as oh fuck, look at this small, like she thinks she runs the show and stuff like that. But so yeah, no, I can totally, totally see where you're coming from that. And um, there are a few other people in there as well that, or at least one other one that I knew. Um, so yeah, it was yeah, I can understand what you were thinking with that. So, what was going on in your life when you first walked in? And we were doing an outpatient program. So, had you already done an inpatient stay there as well?

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Yeah, correct. I did a uh an inpatient state syndrome of God in December 2023. I um I medically retired. I went off from the cops in uh July of 2023, and then I sort of thought I was alright. Um, and then yeah, I wasn't. And it just uh, you know, it took me from July to December for the for the wheels to fall off the Billy Cart and um and to crash quite quite badly. Um, and uh I had basically the ultimate from uh from my psychologist and my GP that if I wasn't to uh uh look at entering into some sort of a um uh impatience day, that the decision may be taken away from me to choose. And uh and therefore so I I made some inquiries and uh and found myself in Sir John of God um in December 23 doing an impatience day, um, which I I've got to say was something that I I cherish to this day. Um that impatience day changed the trajectory of uh of of my life and um I wasn't in a good place. Like I was very um, you know, I don't want to bring the episode down or anything like that, but I just wasn't in a very good mental health space at that time. I was um yeah, just work basically working myself ragged. Um like I don't know if everyone goes through this when you first go off, but I was like super cleaning the house, like um doing all these activities outside, uh like digging trenches and just really just abusing myself physically um to get through day to day. Um and it just got to a point where you know I had a fight with a Calabon fence one night, um, which didn't, you know, Calibon Fence was it's all fun and games when you knock them apart, but when you got to put them back together, it's not very fun. Um trying to do that by myself at night time with the wife holding a torch and saying, like, what have you, you know, what are you doing? And I'm just like, no, I'm I'm just a cook goose, like I'm this isn't me. I'm not a I'm not a violent person, I'm not a I'm not a breaker per like breaker thing type of person. I um I don't like doing that sort of stuff because when you break something, you know who's gonna have to fix it in the end, which is you. So you I I prefer not to create or destroy things because I know that it's gonna be me fixing them in the end. But um, I just got to the end of my tether. And uh yeah, when I got to St. John of God, I got pet up with a really good psychiatrist. And um just even like it was the old Xavier unit. Like at St. John at God, they've got a new hospital wing now where you get individual rooms and the common room's different. But the old Xavier was you're sleeping with uh yeah, three people in the same room, you're sharing a bathroom, um, different common area sort of thing. And uh I've I've I quite like that setup. I I got along very well with the two gentlemen that um that I was staying with. Um and um yeah, I just I found a lot of recovery through St. John of God that was uh very helpful for me going forward.

SPEAKER_05 11:03

Yeah. Well, you have literally just answered the next three questions, all in that one answer. So thank you very much. And I'm just gonna add here look, I love Jeff, and I love even more his metaphors. And we have already seen a little snippet of his metaphors in that explanation. So let's expect a few more, please.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Oh, okay.

Belonging On The Ward

SPEAKER_05 11:26

Um, all right. So, what was it like being around others going through similar situations and struggles?

SPEAKER_00 11:33

Daunting. Um, yeah, I didn't know, like when you first arrived at St. John of God as an inpatient. Here I am with my bags, I've gone to reception, they've told me to take a seat. A nurse will be up there with me soon. And I was I was I was packing filties in my pants. Like I was literally just um, you know, I was scared to the bone. Um the nurse comes up and takes me down to the Xavier ward, um, searches my bag, searches my belongings. I'm sort of from being a cop where I was the person searching people to having my belongings searched. It was very confronting.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

Um, she was absolute dull, but like she made it as comfortable as it possibly could be. Like she wasn't aggressive or arrogant or anything in any way. She was a lovely nurse and um, yeah, set me up in my room. Um meeting people, like I suppose sticking your head out of that, the old old curtains back then. But um, yeah, sticking your head out of the curtains and sort of seeing who your roommates were and uh, you know, being vulnerable, like, you know, introducing yourself to people, getting to know the the clicks that were already in there, because um when people spend uh time together, they they tend to get in clicks. And um, I found that it was different, like it wasn't like groups of people in a clique, it was like everyone on the ward was in the same clique. Like everyone got along really well, and everyone was looking after each other, and everyone was you know, really thoughtful about the way that they spoke to each other, they treated each other. Um, yeah, it was a really um, you know, initially it was confronting, and then it went from confronting to comfortable. Um, sort of got to know a couple people, got to um be involved in in activities and stuff like that. Um, doing some yoga, which I don't, you know, I'm not very flexible at all. Like I'm 123 kilos, and um, yeah, me doing yoga is probably um yeah, it's no aerobic solid style. They're not gonna put a camera on me doing yoga. I'm I'm not very flexible or fit. Um, but yeah, look, I just found activities like that brought us closer with uh with other people and it was really good. Um, you know, so yeah, went, yeah, went went from yeah, definitely uh being uncomfortable to comfortable quite quickly in the wards.

SPEAKER_05 14:18

Yeah, that's good. Did you find it validating, like meeting other people? Because I for me, my experience was so validating to go, shit, it's not just me, there are other people out there walking the same path I am. And for me, that validation was probably one of the most healing parts of my first inpatient's day.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

100%. Yeah, you're right. Look, um, I went from my household, which I was very unstable. Um, the kids were coming home and asking their mum what mood I was in, how to how to um approach me, if I was approachable that day or not. Like they were they were pretty scared um of me and my behaviour when I was at home. Um, I went into St. John of God, very vulnerable, um thinking, you know, like I I don't know what to think. Like, oh yeah, when people go off in the cops, like it's sort of like a there's a lot of stigma about it. I wasn't too sure, yeah, and I wasn't too sure what the reception was going to be like when I got to St. John of God, like, you know, um, but I just found that as soon as I got there, there were people who from lived experience just knew straight away you didn't have to have that awkward conversation. They just everyone knew that you were there, you were broken, and they were were all supportive. Um, it was a very very supportive environment. Um, you know, um there was um yeah, no, I can't think of one person that was like unfriendly or unkind when I was in there. It was just uh it was just a really good environment and definitely, you know, um oh the the way people treated you because they had been there and even the nursing staff who may not have had PTSD or um, but they had dealt with it so frequently that they were all over it. They could walk past you and say, You're right, and you you genuinely knew they were asking the question because they could see something wasn't up or something wasn't right. Um yeah, so no, it was it was it was a very good environment. Like um, and yeah, like seeing like-minded people um that were all in the same boat, we're all broken, and it was validation that I'm not the only one. Like there's there's other there's other people here, you know. PDSD is a funny thing, like it can, you know, it can be a one incident thing, it can be a multitude of incidents that we've seen. Um yeah, like an accumulative, uh I can't even get that word out, but you know, an accumulation of of different things. But you know, you you met people from all walks of life as well. Um, you know, some could have been bosses, some could have just been frontline, some were detectives, uh, you know, and um but we all it was like the whole in the cops, it's very um rank-based. Like if you're a sergeant, then you're a supervisor, and you know, as a pleb, like I was only a senior constable, you wouldn't sort of sit down in the sergeant's uh lunchroom whilst they were having lunch and and sit at their table or any or the inspectors, so to so to say, you'd sit with your rank and your level. But at St. John of God, it didn't matter what you were before you came in, everyone was equal because we were all just there because we were broken, and that was very validating that there was no no sort of structure, no rank structure, no everyone was just equal.

Professor Steele And Early Trauma

SPEAKER_05 18:20

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, I found that as well. And I think in the cops it's very segregated, like the Ds keep to themselves and CMU keep to themselves, and GDs, and like yeah, there's sort of no intermingling. Well, there is a little bit, but yeah, certainly not like it is in hospital. And what stuck with you from that program? And I think these questions, well, these questions are specifically to the outpatient program, but I think it's probably more important to talk about your inpatient program and how that helped you on your journey.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Yeah, I um there was uh a young lady um that used to be one of the facilitators there. Yes, um Caitlin. Caitlin, yeah. Yeah, and she um could see in class that I was struggling a bit. Um and she organized a one-on-one with me with uh Professor Zach Steele, and I had a one-on-one with Professor Steele in his office about my journey. And um he had a meeting to be at that afternoon. I think, you know, let's just say it was a two o'clock meeting, and I'd gone in there at 1 p.m. to see him. He we were, you know, uh I I don't know, a tenth of the way through my story. It gets to two o'clock, and he doesn't kick me out of his office. Instead, he postponed the meeting that he had at two o'clock to continue talking to me. And uh it just made me feel like, you know, this guy actually cares, like this guy really actually like, you know, he he wants to hear your story, he wants to help you out. Um so Zach's deal for me, and also he did a presentation for family and friends. Um, it was electronically, um, whilst we were an inpatient there. And uh my brother, my brother didn't know anything about PTSD. Like he uh, you know, he's he's um uh someone who works in the financial sector, um, doesn't sort of have that much experience with uh with mental illness or anything like that. And um Professor Steele's um uh uh televised, or I was gonna call it a telehealth, but it's not telehealth. It's like yeah, it's like a it's like a pre-record.

SPEAKER_05 20:53

Well it was. It was like almost like a Zoom call that was recorded and then because I possibly accessed it last night. It was the second so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

I found that um my once my brother had had gone through that process with Professor Steele, that you know, then I had someone in my family that I could talk to about it as well, and someone who understood that, you know, it wasn't just uh, you know, uh, oh he'll be right tomorrow. Um it's not just a quick heal, like not just a uh, you know, a band-aid will do. It's a long process of healing. And um, yeah, Professor Steele, I I just think was just the the pinnacle um when I was in the hospital talking to him and figuring out all the different scenarios of my policing career when um PTSD would have been applied to particular jobs and things like that. Um yeah, because I was I was in for just about 15 years and um when he when he pulled apart the the the sourdough and and figured out what was going down. It was quite interesting. Like he's I'm sitting there thinking, oh well I got PTSD in like 2023. And he's like, no, I could wind you back to 2011 and show that this incident um would have generated a a significant part of your PTSD from all the way back to you when you first started um which I never thought about. But then the more I think about it I'm like yeah you're right you know that that was something that was um it was the the bucket the bucket was being filled yeah you know uh you know from very early on like I know it's sort of like something in the cops it's like oh you know if you've only done two years or a year or whatever you you don't know what you know you haven't been on you've been in for five minutes you haven't you haven't seen what I've seen but you can see something in the first in your first day yeah that could give you PTSD you know there's no there's no oh you have to be in the cops for for this long to to get PTSD like you could see something on your first day that your brain just goes I'm not computing with that and and that could that could be enough you know so um and I think a lot of cops like you know we we um put the uniform on and we you know we go out there on duty and we carry the baggage of things we've seen but we don't talk about them and um you know I think that's something that um I don't know like in the last section I was working in we used to get six monthly health checks or well checks I think they used to call them because I was dealing with a lot of death and uh stuff like that. And when I asked the psychologists that used to come in like why don't general duties get these well checks every every three months or every six months because they're they're exposed to job after job after job um in in in a block or like a block like two days, two nights generally they could see some horrific things within that block but there's no well checks for them. They're just expected just to turn up with their uniform on get allocated station truck and go um you know I just I just think yeah there's not there's not enough checking in on the especially the the general duties and frontline staff about their mental health and how they're going you know yeah I completely agree with that and I completely agree with what you said about the prof he was I think he's been instrumental in a lot of people's mental health journeys and he's such a lovely humble guy and I think we've all taken something from what he has shared with us.

SPEAKER_05 24:57

So it's yeah I'm a big fan of the prof.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

No definitely yeah let's move into the song of the week um and as I do for all my guests they are picking the song of the week so what have you chosen for us this week Jeff um so my song is uh called uh someone save or somebody save me it's a uh collaboration between Eminem and Jelly Roll.

SPEAKER_05 25:25

Um should we have a quick listen to it and then you can explain it yeah yeah go for it.

SPEAKER_03 25:30

Let's have a listen to it can't do it like I'm stuck inside an alternate reality but I know alternate reality to the alternate right now just we're the gallant deep on it alternate ground I think it's been lower me in my coffin I feel the tears all falling down on my cheek brilliant I've always loved that song Jeff so thank you.

SPEAKER_05 27:00

What were you gonna say?

Joining The Police And What He Loved

SPEAKER_00 27:01

Why did you change that song what resonates so I um I suffered uh from alcoholism um during my time in the police very bad and um at the beginning of that song um there's this there's a part in it where I think it's Elena Eminem's daughter is trying to uh wake him up in the morning and trying to get him out of bed to come and have some breakfast and um is turning you can hear her turning the lights which on and off and on and off to try and wake him up to get him to come down for breakfast. And that just resonated with me so much when I was in my worst times with alcoholism my daughters used to come up on on a Saturday when their mum was at work and try to wake me up and get me out of bed and uh and um you know last thing I wanted to do was get up and get out of bed like I just wanted to stay in there and die because I I drank so much the night before. And then look the song is more the the jelly roll versions I think more about alcohol the MM version is a little bit more to do with like narcotics and stuff like that. But I love MM I always have and I just I just feel like the song shows like you know the destructive pathway of thinking that a drug whether it be alcohol or a narcotic you know is what's getting you through is what is what's is what's getting you through day to day but realistically it's not it's actually it's it's hurting you it's it's it's holding you back and it's you know you think it's your friend but it's it it's it's not it's it's actually your enemy but you you will cradle that that bottle of alcohol or that drug and think it's it's you need it. It's your friend like you yeah 100% and uh I just yeah I just think in that song it just sort of like uh yeah it go it goes through the the the downs of where it can take you yeah it's yeah well thanks for sharing that song and it is nice to hear your perspective on it as well.

SPEAKER_05 29:17

So um are you okay if we quickly jump into talking about your background and career?

SPEAKER_00 29:24

Yeah yeah cool cool yep all right so what made you want to become a police officer um funny enough it was I I wanted to do it when I left school but I wasn't the smartest tool in the shed um I left school when I was 14 and um I became a motor mechanic um because you had to have something to you know if you don't have a job you can't leave school so I've got an apprenticeship um worked my way up in the automotive industry till I got to the white collar sort of side of the fence um and then I was working for a fleet company and um this was back in the day when everyone had a company car like you know it was just a part of part of the Australian way and um yeah the GFC hit and um everyone started tightening their belts and one of the things that companies did was was say well you know we'll get rid of the company car. So our industry uh being a fleet industry got hit extremely hard and um we were basically all told one morning to go into an office and uh if your name was read out to enter another office and um you know the people's names who were read out who did go to the other office were actually dismissed that day and told they were redundant and no longer had a job. And with that hanging over my head I sort of thought well I need I need to get out of this industry. It's not safe anymore and um I need to get into something that's secure. So I spoke to my wife and she said well you you know you wanted to be a cop back in the day why don't you look at that and I'm like oh yeah maybe I um I didn't think I had the fitness I didn't think I was smart enough to be honest with you Mel like I um you know I wasn't a very academic sort of a person and um and then so I put into the Ambos and the cops and uh the cops just come back first and I just went yeah okay cool I'll go to Gulbon. Um yeah so uh yeah went to Gulbon and um I think you you fit a test when you first get down to Gulban um in your first couple of days um like a reading writing language comprehension sort of test and it's to see whether or not the university can help you with with additional classes to you know help with your skill sets. Yeah some people got told look at we we would recommend you come to these extra learning classes and uh and and participate in them. I was told I must attend these classes um uh because of the results my test my spelling was shocking my writing was shocking when they say do an essay I'd never done an essay before in my life um so I I didn't know I didn't know anything about it so I went along to these it was every Friday so everyone you know got to go and a parade and sleep in and I I used to go to what they used to I used to call it dumb school um so I had to go to dumb school and uh and and learn how to write an essay and learn how to do sentence structure and I was just a mechanic like I you know I you know pretty much I was still using I never got my pen license at school I was still using crayons like um you know in a closed fist you know like so yeah no and uh you know like I yeah I wasn't the intellect and um yeah like I I I scraped through university yeah I was I was I got the passes but they weren't very far off the bottom of the bell end um you know so I was just lucky to get through uni but um yeah joining the cops butt was uh something that it was not a forced decision but um yeah it was it was something where I sort of thought okay well I I need something secure and I you know and I want I wanted to do it.

SPEAKER_05 33:38

Well excuse me sorry Jeff that's all right that's yeah thank you um yeah no definitely and look I think you need to give yourself a little bit more credit. Um I think you're probably a little bit sharper than you give yourself to um and not everybody's academic and like we don't need a world full of academics. So like I know for me in the job I particularly when I first went off I found myself focusing on the negative times of it but I know that there were thousands of things that were good that happened in the job. So what did you love most about the job um look it was it was very social.

When Drinking Became The Coping Tool

SPEAKER_00 34:20

You know like you in in in general duties for example you you'd walk in um at the start of the shift and there used to be a whiteboard with the names of who were in on cars together or trucks together and who was in the station and um it was a roll of the dice you know and you you never knew who you you couldn't put in and say I want to work with this person but sometimes you'd come into work and see you and your mate on a car crew together and you'd just be like yeah sweet this is like gonna be the best day ever. Yeah yeah and um and there were days where you walked in and you saw the name someone that you you know you didn't want to spend 12 hours on the truck with but um you know it you just had to roll with the dice but um yeah I um I was very lucky that I I used to I started out at Eastwood um in Sydney and um I was I was very fortunate to um be able to go into a very small little drug unit um when I was there that was that there was only four of us in the drug unit and um it was ran by a a gentleman I've got much respect for our Frank um and uh our supervisor was just just he just let us run our show and um we got some really good results in that team for a team of four people um I think one of our one of our uh search warrants we uncovered I believe it was 160 kilos of methamphetamine and MBMA um during a search warrant yeah and um it was for yeah for a little team of four like it was um it was a really big and good result and um I I really enjoyed that time in my policing career working for the drug unit there. Yeah yeah that's good and did you have a moment where you knew that joining the cops was right for you um yeah look I um I I had a hurdle early on I um I joined the cops everything was running sweet I was loving life I went out one night and got them a drink and I've had a uh had an event occur where the result of that event was me actually being charged um that was the turning point convicted not convicted no no I was I was um I was dismissed the all the charges were dismissed after a two-day hearing um even to the point where the the police or they call them police prosecutors but the section six actually look after uh which are a special division in the DPP look after police charges and um they were going on about they wanted this PVO to uh to to still stand and the the judge quite uh um aggressively told the DPP that the murder did not meet the balance of probabilities uh let alone beyond reasonable doubt and that the the PVO was also dismissed and um you know so yeah the motor was just a shambles but um yeah look before then it was it was awesome loved it after that when you're part of the big blue family but then the big blue family comes after you um it changes the way that you feel um about how much these people have got your back like you know they're jaded in your mouth yeah and it it took me a while to um rebuild um people's confidence in me and uh rebuild myself after the the the court hearing um and I was allowed back at work um you know look it yeah it was a lot of rebuilding like I probably spent you know three years just rebuilding myself um and trying to you know you know prove to people that you know I was worthy um yeah so but the cops to me always felt right you know it was just one of those jobs that yeah like I I'd still be doing it today if I could I just I just can't um but it it definitely felt right it was um you know I used to love you know locking up crooks and and um being proactive and and getting out amongst it and uh you know um just the different things you'd see every day like you you never knew what your day was going to in entail like you know you you could start your shift and you know you you you're off to a a neighbor dispute or something or you could start your shift and you know it's it's you know something you know massive has happened and you're you're responding to it uh you just you just never knew how it was gonna go like it was it was it was always exciting and I like that about the cops yeah I enjoyed that part too um sorry Jeff I really had to blow my nose then um I'll I would delete this part out and I thought while I'm up I'll quickly make a coffee as well um all right so you sort of touched on a little bit about your alcohol so when did alcohol become a problem for you yeah so in that time um like so when when I first joined the cops like or even before I joined the cops like but I knew I was gonna join the cops I went into a really healthy lifestyle change I dropped alcohol I didn't really have a problem with alcohol then like I was a very social drinker but I didn't have an issue with it um I went to a big fitness like phase I was running I was swimming I was bike riding I was I was going to the gym and doing core classes and and all this sort of stuff um and then when I got charged I went well what's the point like I'm gonna lose my job um I didn't have you know even though I knew that I wasn't guilty of what I was being accused of I sort of thought you know I was getting hung out to dry and um I started uh consuming more like basically recommenced alcohol at that point um and yeah it became a friend um so probably from like 2011 um I probably started nightly drinking um and then just over time it just kept the ball snowball just kept rolling it kept getting worse and worse um throughout my policing career because um it's it's you know the cops has got a uh it's a big drinking culture in the cops. I know that yeah like I know they're trying to make it more of a fitness culture now and stuff like that but you know underlying it's still a big drinking culture um and uh I sort of fell into that quite quite badly um got totally got rid of all the fitness sort of side of the fence and uh and yeah alcohol became my my my new release like I wasn't getting the the enjoyment out of the fitness or not that I I didn't really return to it. I uh alcohol I found was an easier softer way of being able to you know get through day to day so it doesn't take any energy does it no no you can sit at home and you don't have to get changed or get sweaty or you know anything like that.

SPEAKER_05 42:42

And was there a moment for you when you knew things had to change? Um yeah look at the and you don't have to like you can be as open or you don't have to go into full details if you don't want to disclose things it's totally up no it's fine look um yeah look I it was definitely snowballing from 2011 onwards and um it was probably 20 2017 or 2018 I had a really horrific job that I went to and um after that job I found that I was really upping my alcohol intake.

SPEAKER_00 43:40

And uh I remember nights where I would actually be looking up you know like I I knew I had a problem with alcohol and I was looking up things like AA and uh you know ways of stopping drinking knowing that I had a problem But at the same time thought, well, how can I how can I get help when I can't tell my workplace that I've got a problem with drinking because you know it's not really something they that I that I thought they would help me with.

SPEAKER_05 44:20

Yeah, but then saying that too, Jeff. You've got the fear of them you coming to them with a problem of you them potentially taking your gun off you. So that's it's a double-edged sword, really, isn't it? Like, do you seek help knowing that that could possibly be the ramification, or do you just keep plodding along as you're going? So I completely understand that as well.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

Yeah, no, well, that's right. Like if you sometimes in the police, if you raise your hand for help, you get punished. If that makes sense. Like, um, yeah, so if I raised my hand for help with alcoholism, it was more than likely the response would be that healthy lifestyles would come and do more targeted testing on me to try and catch me out, you know, with alcohol in my system the next day, or or um, you know, yeah, they'd take my gun off me and make me restricted, or you know, like not the sort of things that, you know, that you need in that in that headspace. But um, yeah, so you know, the there was always the the quizzes they used to do with you, um, you know, uh how how many drinks do you have a night, how many drinks do you have a week, and it's just always just rubbish. I just you know, I think everyone in the cops fills those forms out pretty uh pretty basically, like, oh yeah, two drinks just a night or no, I've answered them. Yeah, yeah, that's right. You know, like yeah, um didn't you know it was very creative the way that uh you answered those forms because you didn't want to put your hand up that you had a problem.

SPEAKER_05 45:55

Yeah, yeah, definitely. So and what pushed you to get help?

SPEAKER_00 46:00

So in 2021, I um I was on my way home from work and I had a pain in my stomach, and um I didn't quite know what it was. I went home, thought this is more than uh something small, it felt sinister. So it was actually during COVID, and I went down to the after hours GP. Uh 2021, sorry.

SPEAKER_05 46:36

Yeah, yeah. As soon as you saw COVID, I'm going, ooh.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

Yeah, yeah, no, sorry. So yeah, 2021. Um, yeah, and uh I went to an after hours GP and um they had to literally do the consult vibe from the car because he couldn't go in. And then um he's just like, oh look, I just think you're constipated, go and get some um anti-constipation stuff from the late-at-night chemist, and you should be right tomorrow. So I um I did that, uh, went to bed, woke up, still had this pain that was actually gotten worse. Um, got on the train, went to work. I was the only one at work that day. Um, it was near Christmas, and a lot of people had taken time off. So I sort of had to go because I was the only one at work. Um by the time I got to work, like I'd I'd I'd caught two trains, got off the train, walked from the train station to work, which was about a kilometre. And then by the time I got to work, I was just doubled over. I was just folded. Um, I was like, yeah, okay, I mean I'm in I'm in trouble here, so I'm just not right. Um called the ambulance um and said, look, you know, yeah, come out and have a look at me. Um they came out and initially thought that I had appendicitis. And um I went, oh okay, cool cool. So they threw me in the ambo, took me up to St. Vincent's Hospital. Um, and then they went uh did some tests and they're like, Oh, how much do you drink? And I'm like, Oh, why's that?

SPEAKER_05 48:18

You know, like this honestly, or how I think you might need to hear it.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

Yeah, yeah, well they they did blood tests and and ultrasound, like, yeah, ultrasounds, and and then when they asked me the question, how much do you drink? I'm sort of like, oh and I I sort of was a bit, you know, shit, you know, like, how do I answer this? And I thought, look, you know, it could be something sinister, so just answer it honestly. So I did, and um, and then it's like, yeah, your liver enzymes are like off the off the rector scale, your pancreas is in acute distress, that's what's calling causing you pain. It's not appendicitis, um, it's it's basically your your pancreas is uh is in acute distress uh because of um the alcohol intake. Um so I was admitted into St. Vincent's Hospital for a couple days. Um they had me on like iron infusions and um all these sorts of different things to get your vitamin B levels back up and um yeah, and then they uh they had a drug and alcohol nurse come in and have a chat with me. And um she just I don't know, she just seemed to say the right things. Like I just I listened to her and um she said, look, you know, you you've you've got a problem. You cannot drink the way that you're drinking, and pretty much you can't drink at all for the next three to six months till your pancreas recovers. Um, you know, uh, but I would suggest that you stop drinking altogether because you don't seem to be able to control it. And um, I I agreed with her, like I I I couldn't control it. Once I started drinking, I I couldn't stop. Um so when I left St. Vincent's Hospital, um, I went through two days sober, um and yeah, couldn't sleep, couldn't function, you know. I was yeah, it was it was it was pretty rough two days. And then I thought about what she'd told me about AA. She's she sort of mentioned uh, you know, um AA can help um with alcoholism. And so I saw that there was a meeting locally in the morning um of yeah, the the night uh the night before I was looking up and found there was a meeting the next day in the morning, and uh I just went, you know what, bunger it, I'll go along to AA and I'll just see what they've got going on there. And um I went there, I was I was pretty afraid. Um obviously wasn't going to tell them what I did for a job. Like so I had to sort of go in pretty covertly, and uh I just played like I was a mechanic. I just, you know, when someone said what do you do for a job, I was just like, Yeah, I'm a mechanic because I could talk to talk. Um, you know, so when I was at that first meeting, um, a bit like St. Johnic God, where you know people are suffering the same illness, and the the they're just welcoming with open arms and um listening to people's stories, you just go, like, wow, I'm I'm not unique. I'm I'm just like a guarded variety alcoholic. Um, there's there's plenty of us out here. We're from all different walks of life. Like um, and that started my journey with AA, um to which I've continued with them now for four years. Um and uh yeah, that's um, you know, drinking hasn't uh uh it never like since that uh the December of 2021, I I haven't had a drink since.

SPEAKER_05 52:30

Congratulations, that's a massive effort. You should be really.

What Sobriety Gave His Family

SPEAKER_00 52:33

Yeah, thanks. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_05 52:35

Yeah, and so what has sobriety given you?

SPEAKER_00 52:38

Well, giving my family back, that was probably the most important thing because I had gotten to a point where I just I'd get home from work and I it wasn't about seeing what the kids had done with homework or what had they done during the day at school or talking to the wife about her day or anything like that. It was just straight to the fridge, a beer or wine came out straight away, and um I just pretty much went down to the couch and started drinking. Um, so I had to, when I stopped drinking, um I had to sort of do a bit of relearning. Um one of it was relearning how to be a husband. Um I had to relearn how to be a father, um, because I wasn't present. Um, you know, and uh yeah, so and then I also had to learn how to be sober in a uh in a world of the drinking culture of the cops, yeah. Um, which was extremely difficult because everything revolves around drinking, like oh, let's go out after work drinks, let's have a Christmas party drinks, let's have a you know, anything drinks, you know.

SPEAKER_05 53:54

So let's go drink it away.

SPEAKER_00 53:57

Yeah, yeah, 100%. So, you know, that um that was really hard to to sort of, you know, in in the unit that I used to be in, um, you know, we used to do sort of country trips. And um yeah, when when you'd knock off, you'd be in a country town, you'd go out for dinner, you'd go to the pub, you'd have some beers, you'd then go to your hotel room and and and start the next day. And you know, when you no longer drink, um, you know, you're sort of not the I suppose the funnest person to be around. Like, you know, people would prefer to go out with others who drank than to go out with the the sober bloke who who doesn't drink. Um not that I uh I still went to the pubs and all that. Like I wasn't like a oh no, look, you can't drink around me, I I can't deal with that. Like I I still went to pubs, I still went to clubs. I I didn't care if the person who I was with wanted to have a big night on the grog or not sort of thing, it didn't faze me. But um, but yeah, and definitely like there was the closeness of the family coming together, but the distancing of work colleagues and stuff like that at the same time.

SPEAKER_05 55:09

Yeah, it's a catch 22, isn't it? Yeah, you gain one, but you lose one, and I think it's important to look at it and go, what means the most to you?

SPEAKER_01 55:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 55:19

I know from our friendship that your family is front and foremost in your life.

SPEAKER_00 55:26

So yeah, 100%. Like, and uh, you know, I it it was just so good that like, you know, my wife, um, you know, she's she's put up with with a lot, like, you know, putting up with someone who's a police officer to start with, like it's I don't think it's easy being married to a cop. Um, you know, then she put up with the alcoholism. And then when the alcoholism was finished and you know, uh that new leaf had turned over, um, six, seven months later my head breaks.

SPEAKER_01 56:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:04

And I get I get PTSD. And um, and you know, like I was, you know, we'll I'll refer back to Professor Steele. Um, he's like, yeah, well, your coping mechanism left. And uh, and then all the underlying like PTSD that you had throughout your policing career just basically came in like a 10-foot wave and just took took you out.

SPEAKER_05 56:31

Um you know, still masking it with the alcohol?

SPEAKER_00 56:34

100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the the the the previous job that I did before I left, I was uh I was a mechanical examiner. And um our criteria was that someone had died or had got serious injuries due to some sort of uh motor vehicle collision or a uh an incident with the machinery or or something along those lines. And um yeah, it was it was quite hard to, yeah, even though we weren't seeing the actual job live, we would have to review everything about that job, like photographs, stories, statements. So you had to sort of you could put yourself there through 10 years of prior policing experience before I joined that unit, you know, you your imagination could easily take you to every job on paper that you saw. You could easily put yourself there. Um, so it wasn't very healthy for the for the mind. Um basically just being around like we just had a like a whiteboard at work and it was just chocker block full of jobs, and you know, 90% of the jobs on that board were because someone had died. Um, you know, so it was um it was a pretty grim sort of a job.

SPEAKER_05 58:04

Yeah, yeah, it's not very uplifting.

SPEAKER_00 58:07

No, no, and there wasn't a uh apart from the country trips and seeing the state, which was which was cool, um there wasn't like, you know, like NGDs, like, I don't know, like I used to find that sometimes you'd you'd pull up for lunch at a park and there'd be a whole heap of kids, and then they'd see the cop cart pull in and they'd be like, they'd lose their shit. They'd be like, oh my god, this police car. And they'd come over and you'd be like, all you want to do is eat your lunch. But at the same time, you had these kids that were so excited that the police were there, and you'd be like, uh, put lunch aside, you'd get them in the truck, they'd crawl all over the seats, you'd turn the siren on, you'd let them turn the lights on, you know, like, you know, you had that that that other side of it as well, like that, that sort of the joyful side of of policing, where I didn't have that in in my last role. There wasn't um that that sort of joyful sort of side of dealing with um with the kids they had on the street or or or seeing a crook turn their life around and um you know, going from one year locking this person up religiously to seeing them actually like you know, walking out of the Salvation Army office in an orange vest because they're getting their life back together and you think, oh wow, like how good's this, you know, like you you you you've turned the corner. Um it was it was just you know, death, death, death. And you know, you couldn't get away from it.

PTSD Breaking Point And Suicidal Thoughts

SPEAKER_05 59:40

Yeah, that's exactly right. Um so let's go into your PTSD in retirement. So when did you realize you were dealing with PTSD?

SPEAKER_00 59:50

Um so it would have been 2019. I went in and saw my GP and um I sort of put up the red flag that things I wasn't coping with things very well. Um she wrote out my first uh workers' compass certificate and put on there that I was still able to do full duties, however, I was showing symptoms of PTSD. And um not not trying to have a go at this doctor at all, but um as I've gone through further psychiatrists and doctors and stuff like that, symptoms of PTSD is PTSD. You know, it's sort of like to sit there and go like, oh yeah. No, like to sit there and say you've got symptoms of PTSD, but you're still good to go. Um, but at the same time, too, but I can't I can't say anything negative about that doctor because I didn't want to give up. I wanted to stay on the books at work, I didn't want to have my gun taken off me. So, you know, like what I suppose I told her um or told them there was a lot that wasn't revealed because I I didn't want her to um to say that I was restricted or that they had to take my gun off me or anything like that. So um so it's definitely not her fault that she she wrote it up in such a way that I could still continue work, but I um I started on some uh antidepressants and uh started sort of trialing that sort of uh sort of avenue of of drugs. Um and then later over time I got told that I I needed to see psychologists and I needed to see that psychologist then turned around and said, you need to see psychiatrists. I I was doing this all on my own coin. I actually I didn't want to do it through the workers' comp sort of side of the fence because I was worried that it would get back to the cops. So I thought if I pay for this privately, then nothing can go back, nothing can be, you know, the cops can't find out. So I was paying for it privately from yeah, probably 2020 probably about 2020 till 2023 when my head broke. And uh, and that's yeah, when um when it when it broke, like I was just like, you know, I I did I did two jobs the day my head broke, which were both uh suicide via motor vehicle. And um it just started getting it just it just had me, I was just I I just couldn't stop thinking about it. I couldn't stop thinking about suicide, and I was just sort of like thinking, oh, you know, that'd be it'd be a horrible way of doing it, but you know, it could be that that's that's a way I could do it. Like, you know, I was I was starting to get real negative thought pathways in relation to suicide. And um, and then yeah, I had a a phone call with my brother um who sort of picked that I wasn't well, and he uh basically said, Yeah, look, it you know, enough's enough. Go and go to work, get your stuff and leave. Um, I don't want you going back to work again. And um, yeah, look, I I I listened to him and yeah, I went to work, I got my stuff, and uh um, yeah, I I didn't return. No, that was it. I uh I went and had my doctors uh like my work cover certificate changed to no capacity and uh and and and left the cops. But yeah, it was just like it was the accumulation, but just those last that last day I worked, like, you know, when people talk about suicide, um, and I know it's uh it's a it's a it's a rough topic, and I don't mean to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:16

But I think it's important to talk about it, so yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:20

Yeah, no, look, um, people go like, oh, you know, I don't know how someone could do it, I don't know how someone could go down that pathway. And when you're having the thoughts of suicide, you're not thinking about anyone else, about anything else, about um, you're just thinking of how how can I end this because I just want this to stop. I just I can't cope with this anymore. And um, yeah, I was just uh yeah, I was in a really, really dark place with it all. And um and then doing those two jobs, um, you know, what one of them was it was weird. I can't I suppose, yeah, and I can go into it. The the report that I had from the police investigating the accident was that old mate had swerved for a kangaroo and had hit a tree. And I'm like, oh, you know, just in that up. I'm like, nah, this car's like hit the tree right in the center of the car. I pick up the dashboard, the speedo's locked at 160 Ks an hour. Um, the damage to the car was just extreme. And I'm just like, this was a deliberate act. Like, this wasn't someone swerving out of the way and unfortunately coming into contact with a tree. This was a dedicated I'm I'm aiming for it. I'm You know, no seat belt um sort of situation. And I had to had to actually, instead of just being able to do my job, I had to then turn around to the investigator and say, I know you've said that this is how it could have happened, but in my pre professional opinion, I actually think this is this is what's happened. And um, yeah, having to delve into it um and and talk about it again had me thinking more and more uh uh about suicide. And um and yeah, look, I um I I really went deep into it. Like I uh I I got in contact with my super company and set up my wife as a beneficiary to my super account. Um I had wheels drawn up, um, had power of attorneys drawn up. Um like it was it was it was like a uh how would you say like not a thoughtful suicide, but it was gonna it was gonna be something where I tried to limit the amount of damage it was gonna cause my family. Um and my brother was going to be with with my will, there was certain parts of it that he had to sign. And um I'm like, oh shit. And that's I was trying to convince him on on the I think it was a Friday to go down and to sign this will of mine, and I was quite um, you know, uh yeah, adamant, like push, yeah, yeah, pushy to get him to do it. And he said, like, what what what's going on, mate? Like, why, why, you know, this could be something that I could do next month. Why do I need to do it tomorrow? And then, yeah, then he he peeled back the uh the onion and uh you know, I just started crying and and just told him how how like just what I what I was thinking of, what I was thinking of doing. And uh yeah, like he was uh he was my savior. He pulled me out of the hole and and and basically said, Yeah, look, you know, you're done. You you can't be a cop anymore. Um yeah, so yeah, big brother come to the rescue and um yeah, pretty much owed him my life because he he pulled me out of that head space.

unknown 1:08:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:27

And that's awesome of him to be able to recognise it as well, and then to have the courage to do something about it. Um at the end of the day, he could have pissed you off and potentially could have lost your relationship, but it's obviously worked out for the better where your relationship is strong. Um, so yeah, that's that's a tough one for you and for him as well. But you were obviously dealing with your PTSD, but also dealing with your sobriety as well. And I'm assuming it was quite your sobriety was quite fresh in that timeline as well. Was that right?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:01

It was, yeah. So I was only uh six six or seven months over at that time. Um I hadn't like apart from AA, I hadn't really engaged in any other sort of coping mechanisms to replace the alcohol. Um, you know, and um yeah, it just it just all fell apart. Uh, you know, um you know, I didn't know my my friend anymore. Like I'd I'd lost alcohol, you know, like that was that was that was my friend, and like, you know, that that helped me get through day to day. Um, you know, so yeah, I think when when my head broke, um not not having the ability just to drink my woes away um really made it come front and fentanyl.

Coping Without Alcohol And AA Service

SPEAKER_05 1:09:53

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. So now obviously you're living a sober life and you're still having to deal with your mental health. So how does that look like for you? Like how do you what coping strategies have you got in place now to move forward with your PTSD because alcohol isn't your go-to anymore with your sobriety?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:15

Yeah, so I found um that AA for me has given me connection. Um, it's set me up with people of a like mindness um who are in the same position um that they had to um stop drinking for whatever reasons they they had to stop drinking for. And then through AA, like all of a sudden, like instead of, hey, let's meet at the bar and have a couple of beers or you know, let's let's, you know, the the social activities revolving around alcohol, um, it was let's go for coffee, like let's go for a lunch, let's go for a dinner, um, let's go to an AA meeting and go ice skating. Like, you know, just um it just gave me new social, a new social network that I had in my life that, you know wanted me to stay sober and wanted the best for me. Um, you know, so I found that that was a huge help in my recovery. Um delving into being like uh a stay-at-home dad, um that that really sort of it gave me sense of purpose. Um going from, you know, a worker, um, I used to leave my house in the morning at about 20 to 4 to get on the 409 train. So I never saw my kids in the morning. And by the time I got home, it was time for them to go to bed, and I didn't really have that much to do with them. Um, so going from that sort of lifestyle to it being here when they woke up in the morning, helping them get ready for school, um, dropping them to school, doing the the air ends of the day, picking them up from school, and yeah, it gave me a sense of purpose, something, something that I needed to do. You know, and I I don't know like how everyone else feels on the system, but I don't know how I used to work. Like I'm so busy now not working um with you know the the commitments for my kids and and doing the errands and stuff like that. I just don't know where I would have would have fitted a job. I don't know how I used to work. Like, um I'm sure there's many people who are on the the workers' comp system who probably feel the same. Like, yeah, you've got a lot of appointments to attend, you've got a lot of um um you know, commitments other than your workers' compensation commitments, because you're you know, you you're not at home chilling out, doing nothing, going, oh look, you know, sitting in the hammock out the back just watching the the day go by. You you're flat out.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:10

But that's good. Being busy is good.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:14

Yeah, that's exactly right. So, what's your current involvement with AA?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:19

Um, so at the moment, I'm actually a secretary of a meeting on the Central Coast, um, which basically just means that um it's a service position. Um, there's no there's no bosses in in AA. Everyone is a servant. And um, so my my service is that I go and open the meeting up, I bring some milk and biscuits to the meeting, um, I set up the chairs, I put some banners up and um you know prepare for everyone to come. And then we have our meeting, and uh, once the meeting's concluded, then I you know, pack everything away and uh and and and pack the the the place back up. Um that that's um I I I'll only do that for like say 12 12 weeks and then I'll just go back to just being uh uh you know just a regular member. Um but um I AA in my life now is it's it's a religious, not religious thing like Jesus sort of thing, like you know, um, but I I religiously go to it. Like I I have to, you know, a minimum of once a week, if not more. Um and it just keeps you grounded because um like yeah, even after four years, I'll start, yeah, it's not that long at all, but you start to sit there thinking, I've got this, I could probably have a drink, I could probably, yeah, I could just have one, yeah, you know, and and then you go to meetings and see people who unfortunately have had that same mindset and have gone down that avenue of having just one, and then next minute they're like back to how they used to be. Um, if if not worse. Um, you know, I've had friends of mine who uh you know had massive issues with alcohol, had stopped a couple of years' sobriety, and then when they fell off the horse or off the wagon and started drinking again, they found themselves not only drinking again, but doing things like drinking methylated spirits and orange juice um to get you know to get as drunk as drunk as they could as quickly as possible. Um and an alcoholic, kind of like a drug addict, um you can take the money out of our accounts, you can, you know, uh put a chain on the front door. Nothing will stop you getting your poison if you're if that's what you're gonna go for that day. Like you'll go out and you'll beg for a dollar from 20 people on the street to get 20 bucks so you can go and buy liquor. You know, like it's it's a it's a horrible thing. And I've seen through the experience of being in the rooms of AA that that one drink that you think you can have, you just can't. Like, once if you're an alcoholic of my type, you just cannot drink again. It's just not an option.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:34

Yeah, it's almost like that Pringles ad. Once you pop, you can't stop.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:38

100%, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:39

Yeah, yeah. And for me, like I know, and I think I've told you before, like when my head broke, I made the conscious decision not to drink because I've seen so many cops go down that spiral. Um, but the addiction in that sense is not something that I can speak about. So it's been very nice to have you here being able to share your insight with it as well. But this might be a tough question for you. Um, but do you think your kids have learned anything about alcohol through your sobriety?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:13

Yeah, look, um my eldest was probably exposed to my alcoholism a lot more than my youngest was. Um now where my wife doesn't drink, or she can. She has the occasional glass of wine on a very rare occasion. Um, but we're uh we're a non-drinking house, so we don't have alcohol at the dinner table or or anything like that. Um we still have alcohol in our lives, like if we were to go out somewhere, like we don't stop people from drinking in front of the children or anything like that. But um the kids know that I'm actively involved in in AA um and that um alcohol for me was a problem. And uh, and that um yeah, just uh, you know, they're they're sort of like, oh, what can Uncle um blah blah drink and you can't. It's just like, well, it's just because I I can't. I I I don't have the physical capacity to stop. Um and therefore I can't do it. And it's I think it's a good lesson that they can also see that you can live life without alcohol. 100% you can you can enjoy times at a party, you can enjoy going out with friends, you can enjoy going to a dinner. Um, best part about it is when you've had it enough and everyone starts getting drunk and disorderly, you can go, well, I've had a great night. Get your keys out of your pocket, get in your car and drive home and sleep in your own bed. Um, not in like box trailers and stuff like that, which I've woken up in before.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:00

Um, you know, like that it's it's sad, but slightly funny too.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:06

Oh, geez, I just I've had nights of the front stoop where I've got the keys in the door or got the wrong key in the door and given up and just decided to go to sleep on the front step of the house. Like um, yeah, many, many nights where I've uh woken up in funky places. Um, but uh no, look, I think it's good for the kids to um to see that um there is a a negative side of alcohol. Um and you know, look, I've got no issues with people who have a drink, two drinks, ten drinks. And they can then the next day or for the next week or the next month not have a drink and it doesn't faze them. Um, you know, if someone can control their drinking, that's fine with me. Like I'm I'm totally not against people drinking, but it's just I I can't myself. I and there's there's there's others who are built like me who we just can't. And that's just and it's just how it is.

Where To Get Alcohol Support

SPEAKER_05 1:20:13

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. And so before we wrap things up, where can people go for support if they are thinking that they're having issues with alcohol?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:23

Um, so yeah, look there there's lots of drug and alcohol services ran by like local area health, um, where you can get in contact with local area health and get into like alcohol um sort of counseling and stuff like that. Um there, you know to to where like the AA option is something that I would strongly suggest. Like um, if you know, and look, being a frontline worker, I I didn't want to go into AA and as I've said before, tell everyone, oh look, hey, I'm a I'm a cop, because there's people in AA that are there because they've been ordered by the courts to be there, they're there because they've lost their license, they've lost their marriage, you know, da-da-da. So you don't want to sort of go in there and go like, oh, hey, I'm a cop, and everyone be like, ugh, okay. So, you know, you you it's a it's a program of honesty, but at the same time, you know, you can be honest about your drinking, you can be honest about, but you don't have to it doesn't matter where you work, because I've gone to AA with celebrities, magistrates, uh, cop cops, Ambos, um, you know, school teachers, school principals, um, church pastors, like it everyone come, like it's a disease that has no selective criteria of who it picks. So, you know, um you don't like specifically have to go in there and say, Oh, I do this for a job. You, you know, you can you can just tell anyone, like, oh, I'm just unemployed at the moment. Like, so yeah, so like you AA is definitely a a really good thing because you pick up um a lot of tips and tricks from from others who are experiencing the same thing. And it's a program that if you put it in your life, I I believe like people find with religion and things like that. Um, you know, AA has a 12-step principle, and those 12-steps, if you follow them in your life, you'll you will be a decent human being. Um so from that, there's probably the more extremes of if your if if your if your issue with alcohol is is uh at a point where you know you need intervention. Um there are detoxes around the end via local area health um at your local hospitals and things like that. Um there's also um like rehabs and and and detoxes at places like St. John of God Hospital, where especially to um the the people who may be listening to this podcast that may be a next emergency services worker, but uh, you know, don't want to specifically go into an alcohol ward. I know St. John of God, I've had a friend of mine who went there for alcoholism but got to stay on the PTSD ward for their treatment. Um, you know, so there's there's options with the private hospitals as well. Um, and and then yeah, detox for like, you know, your more serious sort of cases where you may need um you know medicinal assistance to um to to help you come come off and because it's it's a it's a it's a pretty evil withdrawal process.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:03

Yeah, and and to believe correctly that alcohol is the only drug you can die from withdrawals from.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:11

Yeah, correct. Yeah, that's uh to the best of my knowledge, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:15

So readily available. Like every block on the street that you walk down, there's either a bottle or a something like that where you can get grog. And it just baffles me to think that it is such a deadly drug, but so culturally accepted and so readily available.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:35

Yeah, no, and that's right. And it's it's uh yeah, coming off it, like you know, you you can go through things like what they call the DTs, the delirium treas, and uh and you know, you you can people have experienced being delusional, seeing things um to the point of having grandma seizures, um you know, uh, and and things like that, where um, yeah, if you if you are in a really bad place with the alcohol, it may be something where you're actually too sick to just go down the the path of a counselor or AA. It might be that you do need to go and get professional help um to come off the alcohol. But the professional help out there is is really, really good. There's no stigma. They understand that, you know, it's one of those things that it's just it's just come up and bit you on the bum. Like it's um, you know, and they're the staff who are in these facilities are really um, they're there for the right reasons. They're not like, you know, um, you know, you've you're maybe your ED nurse that doesn't want to be at work that day, or you know, they're they're there because they want to deal with uh addiction and abuse issues. And the yeah, it's it's the I haven't come across one that I would say didn't care about what they were doing or or didn't want the best outcome for you.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:03

And that's refreshing to know, particularly if you or somebody you know is struggling with alcohol moving forward and things like that. But yeah, look, if there's anything that anybody wants to reach out, just flick me a message or an email and I'll um try and find out. I can't guarantee I'm gonna know the answers, but between Jeff and I we'll be able to come up with it. So is there anything else you wanted to say before we get into the thought of the week about your journey with alchemism and PTSD?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:35

Um yeah, look, I I I think with both of them you need help. It's not something you can dig yourself out of on your own. Um personally, I've tried and I didn't succeed. Um the hole just gets deeper and it, you know, you you just you can't get yourself out of it. I I I'm a person who I won't ask people for help. Um but I've learnt with with my alcoholism and with PTSD that you need to, you need to ask for help and you need to get the professional help. Um I'm in so much of a better situation in my life now um being sober and and and being um having a medical team behind me to support me with my PTSD than trying to do it um alone or um without any help. I just think that it's very dangerous to to look at either of those two and think you can you can do it yourself. Um like you know, I know there are people out there who can just go cold turkey on on the on the alcohol or or you know, can fight their way through PTSD, but like just just take the help. It's there. The people in those industries really care. You know, that's that's probably the you know, the most important thing that I'd probably try to get out there is that, you know, you go into like a place like St. John at God or um any of the local mental health hospitals that deal with PTSD, they care. They actually want to help you. Um, you know, drug and alcohol, counseling, things like that, same thing. Like even like AA, it's it it's a family that gets behind you and wants the best for you. You know, so definitely like reach out, get get the help. Don't try and do it on your own because um the help's out there and uh and it's really good.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:38

Yeah. And I think it's important to realize as well is that there's no shame in saying I can't do this alone and I need help. Whether that's with alcohol or drugs or mental health, um, I think if you've got the fight in you to want to get that help, certainly take it.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:56

So yeah, yeah, and it's it's sometimes a decision that, you know, like the my PTSD journey. Um I yeah, as I I said before, the the doctor was gonna uh uh admit me if I didn't admit myself. So I I sort of had that choice taken away from me with my alcoholism, okay, my pancreas packed up, and I sort of I didn't really have a choice other than to to get help. Um but you know, don't let it get to that point if you can. Like reach out early, get the help. Even, you know, maybe to those listeners who are still actively serving, um, there's nothing wrong with going and just having a chat with a psychologist about your mental health, um, just to have a just to have a debrief. Like you don't have to go in there with a particular job that's pushed you over the edge or anything like that. Just going and have a chat to someone. If you think that maybe alcohol is is alcohol or drugs is is is consuming more of your life than what you want it to, have a chat to someone about it and uh and and and talk it out. Um the help's available, definitely tap into it.

A Friend Lost And A Final Message

SPEAKER_05 1:30:14

Yeah, definitely. All right, as I do with all my guests, um, they are in charge of the thought of the week. And what have we got this week, Jeff? I know this one is meaningful for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:26

Yeah, so um approximately um as it'd be about a month ago now, um I and a lot of uh my my friends and associates had uh lost a very good mate of ours. Um his name was Anthony Bailey or Bailes, um, as as we referred to him. And um he we we've unfortunately lost him to to suicide. Um and uh you know, unfortunately, there was an element of uh alcoholism um that had caused uh disruption in his family life. And um there was multiple things, but he was suffering from PTSD from work, from alcoholism, and from from uh you know, pretty much a marriage that was was on the rocks or had had broken due to alcoholism. And um, and unfortunately, um Bales couldn't uh um uh find a uh a solution to um to get through uh these problems that he had and uh and and did to suicide unfortunately as as um as as his um uh final action. Um sorry, it's just um yeah. But um so during um during Bales' funeral, uh a slide came up during the photograph um border picture show that they they put up. And this was uh part of a letter that Bales wrote to his daughter, Shay, um, that he wanted shared at his funeral. And um I I think it's just uh for for a message of the week or you know, just something I'd like to read out. Um you know, just you know, I I just think it's important. So um he says uh he says to my friends, family, and colleagues, please, if you're struggling with an addiction, reach out for help. If you let your addiction ruin you, you will more than likely lose the most important things in the world to you. I am unfortunately proof of that. I am 176 days sober. Please reach out if you need help. I wish I would have reached out earlier and faced my demons. It is never too late to reach out for help. You are important and you are worthy. So I just think that message from Bales really hits home. Um, especially with me. Like I think serving police officers who may have an issue with alcohol. Um it's it's a lonely place in the cops because you can't talk to anyone about it. Um and I just, yeah, I just think that message for him, like, you know, yeah, I am unfortunately proof of that. Like, you know, like I I just wish, you know, yeah, I I don't know, like it's just so sad. Um, you know, and and he he you know, mentioning that he was 176 days sober before he took his life, like uh, you know, it's just um that's heartbreaking um that you know he he was trying as as hard as he could, but just uh he he just yeah uh like you like you mentioned he he he he he didn't face his demons early enough. And um, you know, I just think that's what I meant before about about reaching out before, you know, don't don't don't get so deep you can't find a way out. Reach out for help early. Reach out for help even if you don't think you need help. Just talk to someone, whether whether it be like for me, my brother, um uh, you know, a friend, uh, a partner, um a neighbor, just have a chat, just have a chat and get someone else's perspective on how you're feeling and if they may have any suggestions about what you should do or if it if it's normal. Like if you're if you've got a head full of negativity, um, you know, uh people can pick up on that and uh you can get some good advice from people in relation to what you could do to help yourself. Um and and listen, listen to those people. Like if someone says to you, oh, I think you might be drinking a bit too much, or or you know, do you do you know um you're always angry or or you're you know, or you're you're not the same as it used to be, that that that's a red flag.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:42

Re reach out to someone. Like go and go and have that meeting with a psychologist. Go and go and talk to someone uh in a professional capacity. Your doctor, your GP is they're like the Swiss Army knife of the medical trade. Your GP can open so many doors of not only like a counseling service, but where to refer you to to get further help. Um if if it's just a uh, you know, your first portal call is just your local GP, go and reach out to them and and just you know, just have a chat to them because um it's not weak to speak. I uh I I really uh you know, I see that on the back of people's cars, and I really believe that's true. Um there's no stigma attached to alcoholism, PTSD, drug addiction. You know, get the help. People are there, they're willing to help. Um, and and yeah, like don't feel like, you know, you're definitely not the only one going through it. Don't feel like you're, you know, oh no one's gonna get what I'm feeling or no one understands, because yeah, there are people out there who who do get how you're feeling and do understand, and you know, you connect with those people and you know, you get allies to help you through those fights.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:12

Yeah. Well that was Jeff, you should be really, really proud of yourself. I know I haven't known you very long, but you your journey just shows strength and courage, and your will to fight is is amazing. So, and the way you articulated yourself in this episode has been incredible. So, thank you so much for that. Is there any last little thought you want to add before I wind up?

SPEAKER_00 1:37:42

Uh I just want to thank you, Mel, for not only your friendship, like you know, like I know we didn't go into how much we knew each other at the STARE program or anything like that, but um your friendship, you you're you like I'm sure your listeners will hear what sort of a person you are just from the way that you talk. But you're you're you're a great friend of mine. You provide this platform for people to be involved in your life and to um to be able to um uh you know feel that they're not alone. And and and and I just think this this Mad Mills platform is is such an important thing. You you're doing such a a great thing, and you're a good person. And I just really thank you for putting these episodes together. I know it's a lot of work, like you know, you you gotta think of something new every week, you gotta, you know, record it, you gotta, you know, edit it, then you gotta get it out. And and yeah, I know you're terrible with your socials, but we'll try to improve that over time. Um, but you know, but no, it's it's it's it's it's really good. And if if if if you know this just isn't your one-horse pony, like you're a you're a family lady, you're taking your kids um here, there and everywhere for for activities, and you know, you help out with the with with the emerge charity, you just got got off your your wings for kids, um, bike ride. Like you're you're a busy person, and for you to take the time out if you're weak to put these episodes together to help people like myself and others, I just think that's just amicable of you. And I just, yeah, really wanted to say thank you from me. And I think I I speak on behalf of the other people who listen to your podcast. Um, just that we are so grateful for you putting this all together um for for us and for it for your listeners. It's just, yeah. I look forward to, I think it's 10 o'clock every Wednesday.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:54

Yep, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:55

Yeah, for the for the release of the episode. So um yeah, yeah, no, it's it's really good. And you're doing a you're doing a great thing. So I'm really supportive of you.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:05

Thank you. I really appreciate that. Um it's always nice to hear those words. And look, it does like, I'm not gonna lie, sometimes it goes, oh, I've got to record an episode, what am I gonna talk about? And every every week there's always something I can talk about, whether I'm having a bad day or my head's quite good. And recently my head has been quite good, but I can always come up with something to talk about. So it's it's refreshing to know that people like yourself are out there listening to it every week and getting something valuable out of it as well. So it sort of just makes it all the more worth it.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:41

So yeah, no, no, don't worry, so keep doing what you're doing, it's amazing.

Thanks And How To Follow

SPEAKER_05 1:40:46

Sweet, thank you. All right, well, let's wrap it up. Um, thanks again, Jeff. I really appreciate you coming on today. Um, you did an amazing job. You are very articulate, and I think you were able to and will be able to help people that may be realizing that their alcohol is causing issues in their lives, then hopefully this will be the little bit of a push that they need to get themselves help as well. So, moving forward, look after yourself. Have a great week and be kind to yourself.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:19

Thanks for tuning in to Mad Mail's Mike. I'm Melissa Smith, and I hope you've enjoyed listening. You can find me on Facebook and Instagram, and don't forget to like and follow. Have a great week, and don't forget to be kind to yourself.