Beyond Burnout: The Science of Stress & Sustainable Recovery w/ Jacob Greer | EP9

EPISODE DESCRIPTION

Feeling like you're running on empty no matter how much you sleep or how many cups of coffee you drink? You're not alone. In this episode, Sheldon sits down with Jacob Greer, PhD candidate in Health Behaviors and Wellness Education and creator of Beyond Burnout Collective, for an evidence-based deep dive into the science of burnout and sustainable recovery.

This isn't your typical "self-care" conversation. We're talking autonomic nervous system regulation, cortisol dynamics, circadian rhythm entrainment, HPA axis function, and the critical role of sleep as the foundation for recovery. You'll learn breathing techniques that instantly shift your nervous system, mindfulness practices for building stress resilience, and why your body's stress response isn't the enemy, it's the mismanagement of it.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Burnout vs. tired: Severe internal dysregulation, not just fatigue—stuck in chronic sympathetic overdrive
• Cortisol taxi metaphor: Chronic stress constantly demands energy transport until you're running on fumes
• Circadian rhythm: Wake at the same time daily to entrain your SCN master clock
• Sleep is the engine: Without quality sleep, all other performance upgrades are futile
• Morning sunlight: The strongest zeitgeber—resets cortisol, circadian rhythm, and internal systems
• Mindfulness builds mental muscle: Notice thoughts as clouds, refocus on breath, build awareness
• Acceptance paradox: Stop fighting burnout—acceptance creates space for healing
• Recovery without quitting: Small, consistent daily steps build momentum
• Three breath techniques: Physiological sigh, box breathing (4-4-4-4), 3-7 breathing
• Stoic reframing: Treat stress as resistance training for mental resilience

CHAPTERS

• 00:00 – Intro & Welcome
• 01:00 – What Burnout Really Is
• 04:00 – Jacob’s Personal Burnout Story
• 12:00 – The Physiology of Stress
• 20:00 – Running on Empty
• 26:00 – Sleep: The Foundation of Recovery
• 35:00 – Tools to Regulate the Nervous System
• 45:00 – Mindset & Resilience
• 52:00 – Community Q&A
• 01:05:00 – Practical First Steps
• 01:13:00 – Final Thoughts & Jacob’s Resources

CONNECT WITH JACOB GREER

Transcript

[...0.1s]Hey, what's going on mbt movement community? It's sheldon, your host here joining you for another episode. Um, really excited to bring you my guest here today. I have mr.Jacob greer. He is a savage phd candidate, [...0.4s] um, and he is currently studying health behaviors and wellness education. He's also the creator of beyond burnout collective, where he helps high achieving educators, executives, and entrepreneurs [...0.4s] eliminate burnout using evidence based strategies.And the thing about the whole evidence based approach is, you know, people like myself and jacob is we make it very practical.Jacob greer, he is a phd candidate and he also had an experience of overcoming severe burnout during his first year of doctoral studies. And that's sort of where the culmination and where his practice and community beyond burnout collective started to come together.For he has over a hundred eighty members. He provides practical tools [...0.4s] for people feeling drained, stressed or stuck, focusing on foundational pillars of sleep optimization, stress management, and sustainable lifestyle change.His approach alone bridges academic research with real world application, making a complex health behavior science accessible and actionable. So without further ado, i'm really excited to bring you all my guest, mr.Jacob greer. Jacob, welcome to the nbt movement. Thank you for your time. Thank you for being here, brother. [...1.4s] Yeah, man. Thank you for having me. I'm super excited to get into it.Yeah, no, absolutely. So the whole core, um, premise of this episode, right on the title, is essentially beyond burnout where we talk about the science, the stress and really sustainable recovery practices. And this is more or less a collaborative conversation where we're diving down the science.But again, like i alluded to earlier is we're making the science practical so people can have actionable steps [...0.6s] after this episode like asap to integrate within their own life practice.So really the core question we're looking to answer, he is [...0.5s] when people say i'm doing everything i think i should be doing, but i still feel exhausted and burnout. What am i missing? You know, if you could give me sort of like a key summary, what would be your answer to that question? [...2.3s]Yeah, i think [...0.5s] a lot of people misunderstand what real burnout is. I think a lot of people would say that they're just tired and they just maybe need [...0.6s] a little bit more rest.When really, [...0.5s] i think the core of burnout, um, at least the people that i deal with, are people that have their nervous systems are completely out of whack, their natural body rhythms are not aligned the way that they're supposed to be.Um, there's so many different things going on the inside that they're unaware of. They don't know how to take care of, um, and kind of get back aligned.And so those things are keeping them from being as productive as they want, from reaching their goals, from feeling like they can get the most out of life.And [...0.4s] my approach is taking practical tools like you've been mentioning, and giving easy [...0.4s] actual steps [...0.4s] every step of the way. That way people actually know what they're doing, [...0.4s] um, and they have a road map to get them from a to b.So, um, a lot of the things that we'll probably talk about today are gonna be [...0.4s] grounded in science, like you mentioned, but they're also very, very [...0.5s] easily implemented and actual.Yeah. And that's what a lot of people are looking for is, you know, especially now, in this day and age, you can just get like analysis paralysis, information overload with what you see online, like one person saying one thing, the other person saying a completely different thing, but they're both in alignment and they both seem like, quote unquote, gurus. Right?And that's kind of the challenges like where do you look to when all is kind of like pointing in the opposite direction?That's kind of kind of the challenge there, right? So, [...0.7s] yeah, that that's kind of it is, this conversation is essentially, you know, [...0.7s] the hook here is how many of you have ever felt like you're running on empty.Like no matter how much coffee you drink or how many hours you sleep, you just don't seem to get that energy back, [...0.5s] you know, that, that's kind of what we're essentially answering here.So [...1.4s] i, i wanna start off this conversation really with just like one simple question is in just kind of get listeners to, to know you a bit more. Would you mind talking about your story and like, what did burnout actually look like because you had a personal experience with this as well. So what did that look like for you?As i'm sure there's gonna be a lot of listeners who resonate with this, [...1.6s] yeah, absolutely. Um, [...0.7s] i know you kind of hit on it a little bit already, but my phd is in health behaviors and wellness education.And so my entire academic background is in health and wellness. A lot of the things that i help people with now and going into my doctorate, i thought i had it all figured out, you know, i was doing all the right things and [...0.7s] i, [...0.7s] i overloaded myself.I [...0.6s] thought i could handle everything that i was achieving or trying to achieve, and [...0.9s] everything that i was putting on my plate ended up swamping me. I mean, it, it drowned me quick.And it wasn't actually until, i guess it was the summer after my first year in my doctorate that my, my advisor, my department chair sat me down and was like, hey, i don't think [...0.5s] you're okay.You know, you have bags under your eyes, you seem miserable, like you're here, but you're not here [...0.5s] even when we're talking and having conversations. I just, there's no life in your eyes anymore. Um, are you okay? Is what she was really getting to. Uh, and i just, [...0.6s] i didn't really have an answer.I was like, i, i don't know what's going on. I feel like i don't wanna get out of bed in the morning. My, [...0.4s] my stress is through the roof. I've never experienced this, [...0.4s] um, and i have a strong background in, in being physically active, you know, i did bodybuilding and the spartan races.I've worked out for most of my adult life and [...0.9s] i had no desire to work out anymore. I hated the thought of being active and [...0.5s] i was struggling in my relationship.I had just started dating who is now my fiance. We just started dating and i was having a lot of issues there because i wasn't sleeping, i wasn't taking care of myself and [...0.4s] i just kind of hit rock bottom, man. And i didn't realize it until she had said it.And [...0.4s] that for me was a huge wake up call. And i'm thankful for her because she actually gave me a space to start to recover a little bit.She [...0.7s] was like, okay, i'm gonna give you a little bit less of a teaching load. Um, so i wasn't teaching as many classes or still teaching, still full time in my [...0.4s] doctorate, yeah, still work, working outside of that as well just to kind of pay bills. Um, but it wasn't as much. And so it allowed me a little bit of space to [...0.4s] recover.And so [...0.5s] that space [...0.5s] led to me just investigating a lot of these things, trying to find more practical ways. So obviously i had the theoretical, the scientific background and all this stuff, but [...0.4s] it wasn't clearly helping me in my real life. So i wanted to find the ways.Yeah yeah, and so i wanted to find the ways to take what i knew and really apply it. And it was a lot of trial and error, yeah, which a lot of people i'm sure have struggle with.And like you were saying, there's so many gurus out there, like you know, meditation is the way or i, you know, keto diet or whatever it is.There's so many different things and my purpose, my vision for my community and, um, the people that i help is to take all of that [...0.5s] noise and kind of condense it all into [...0.6s] one specific roadmap. These are the things that help me and will tend to help most people because they are backed by science, my own experience, the people that i'm working with.So, yeah um yeah, that's just a little bit of my story and [...0.4s] kind of the reason that i'm even in the space that i am. Wow, [...0.6s] yeah. I would, i would imagine even like getting into a doctoral, doctorate program, yeah, you get interviewed, so the director knows you pretty well from the beginning.And she just, she addressed that and said, hey, like you don't look like that entry level doctorate student that was eager beaver coming into the program anymore. And that was sort of, would you say that was kind of a pivot point for you? Like it was a collaborative effort to kind of spark that change. [...1.9s]Yeah, definitely it was, [...0.4s] i, i mean, i knew things were wrong internally, um, and we might talk a little bit about this later, but i also had ocd, [...0.4s] didn't know i ever had that. I had it my whole life and i just didn't know how to name it.Yeah. So that was starting to flare up. Um, and even, you know, my girlfriend was like, hey, like you just don't seem [...0.5s] happy, you know yeah, when she, when my boss was finally like, hey, i don't think you're okay.That was the moment that i was like, alright, this is serious. Like, people are starting to notice that i'm not alright.It's not just, it's not just internal anymore. You know yeah um, a lot of people at my, at my level, at a doctorate level, or people that are high achievers. It's you, you feel a bit of shame, you don't wanna admit that you're struggling, that you took on too much, and you can't handle it.Yeah, you just, you convince yourself that it's, that's normal, that everybody struggling, that everybody just pushing through, and that's, that's actually not the case.Yeah um, and if it is the case, that's not good. You don't wanna be in that place. You don't, [...0.6s] you don't produce the greatest amount of work. Um, you're not proud of the things that you're doing, and you're honestly struggling through every single thing you do. And i can [...0.4s] confidently say [...0.4s] on the other side that [...0.6s] there's so much better out there once you figure out how to implement these simple tools. Um.And you feel like, man, i'm so much more productive. I get more done in a quarter of the time, uh huh, and i'm able to actually enjoy the other parts of my life and not feel drowned [...0.5s] the entire day. So yeah, just balance is what it was.Something kind of spark, sparked to my mind here is, [...0.7s] had your director not called you out, what do you think that journey would have looked like for you? Have you ever thought about that question? [...2.1s]Oh, [...0.8s] not directly, but i have really thought about [...0.4s] just what it would have looked like to keep pushing forward, yeah, without being able to take that step back. And i, i really don't think i would have made it.You know. And i'm thankful [...0.7s] again for her because she has seen people in that same place. You know, she's been, she had been the chair of our department for, you know, decades and so she really knows what it looks like when people [...0.4s] are in that place.Wow. So [...0.4s] i think without her saying something, and she, you know, they warn you on the front end, it's like, this is a lot, and you're gonna have, you're gonna have trouble, but we're here for you. Like yeah, you can get through it, but that, you know, [...0.8s] so it means until you're in it, right. It's kind of yeah, all here say until you actually experience it.Wow, [...0.5s] wow, [...0.9s] that's powerful to have a mentor like that. You know, it was like sort of divine timing, and it wouldn't have happened otherwise. That's exactly why it happened that way, so, [...0.6s] yeah, really powerful stuff, man. That's, that's really cool.So how, how did that whole, any mention the whole ocd, chris, how did that, [...0.6s] how did that interact and compound with a burnout? Like, what what, what were, like the key indicators for you? [...1.5s]Yeah, so [...0.7s] it definitely compounded the, the burnout. Um, i know a lot of people nowadays in our culture [...0.4s] tend to struggle with anxiety and stress, and [...0.5s] understandably so with the way the world is, kind of, going, and [...0.7s] the state of our economy and politics and everything else like it, you have a reason to, kind of, be stressed and [...0.8s] prices of everything.Yeah you know, that's a whole another conversation, but [...0.9s] ocd is, [...0.5s] is another level of anxiety and stress.It, it takes your worst fears and it, [...0.8s] it weaponizes it against you essentially. And, like, [...0.6s] you think that you've experienced stress and worry until you had ocd, and it's, it's just something that it's so hard to explain.Your mind is just constantly attacking you, and when you don't understand why [...1.1s] it, it feels hopeless at times. There you feel like, am i ever gonna be able to not have these thoughts? Am i gonna be able to live a normal life again?And that's a lot of the things that i was going through, man. It was months of suffering with just this anxiety, this, these thoughts that kept me up at night. I couldn't fall asleep.Um, it was the first thing i thought about when i woke up. Um, it, which i know can be relatable for a lot of people, um, in different ways. And so [...1.4s] that [...0.7s] was my existence for, you know, six to eight months until it finally clicked.I heard somebody say something about it and so i look more into it, met with a therapist, and sure enough, i had ocd. And i think putting a name on it, hmm, gave me a little bit of peace.It gave me some hope, yeah, to kind of keep pushing forward because there were times i was just like, i don't know what to do anymore, you know, i was having panic attacks at work. Um, [...0.8s] it it just, it was [...0.4s] spiraling out of control very quickly.And luckily, [...0.8s] by the grace of god, i, i'm a christian and i pray, i would pray every day about it because it was just so [...0.6s] such a big obstacle in my life and i had no idea how to overcome it. Um.And so i, [...0.7s] among all of the other things that were causing my burnout, you know, sleep and everything else like this was attacking my mind and my mental health.And so [...0.6s] a lot of the tools that we talk about, um, in my community and in my program are very physical, you know, taking care of your physical health. But we also do talk about mental health because it's something that i've experienced personally.How [...0.5s] difficult it can be when you don't have control of your thoughts, when, when your own mind is [...0.7s] causing misery every single day and it really is on your head, you know um, obviously there could be things that cause you stress and, you know, can worry you.That's, that's not what i'm saying at all, but [...0.5s] most of the time it was irrational thinking. It was, [...0.4s] it was intrusive thoughts. Um, it was just worrying about the future [...0.6s] that doesn't exist. It was all in my head.And so learning how to kind of work through that stuff was a huge help in the burnout [...0.4s] recovery for me. And so [...0.6s] taking that, adding it with a lot of the physical [...0.5s] tools and implementations is it kind of gave me the whole [...0.6s] recovery picture there.Wow, i kind of like came full circle for you. And i think we've talked about this before as well as like the most powerful part is like yeah, sure you have the degree, you understand the theory, but to have the anecdotal experience and to have to actually have gone through that just put so much more context that, you know, i think those are really where the clinical wizards come in is because they've lived it and they can relate to, you know, people that are going through this.And, you know, i'm, i'm sure there's even a story behind your director, whether it's just having decades of experience or having gone through it or itself or having understand the research from a different perspective.Do you know? Um, there's just so much power in all of that. So, you know, i think that you're, you're onto something here and there's gonna be a lot of, lot of success to come. Um.But diving into sort of like the next piece here and something that i think a lot of people are gonna relate, relate to is the science. Again, we're gonna make it more practical here, [...0.5s] um, in understanding the why, which helps people [...0.5s] take the like what to do more seriously.You know, it's like, it's like you were saying, once you're able to put a title on something, you can at least [...1.1s] start the under the path of understanding is the idea here. Whereas it's like, you know, you're sailing without a compass without it, you know, is sort of the idea here.But a lot of listeners, i'm sure they're hearing this conversation and there's some questions that might come up like and that i want to sort of like sift through. Like one might be is how would someone know they're actually like burned out versus if they're just tired? Is there a difference at all to that would you say? [...1.6s]Yeah, absolutely. Um. There are obviously a lot of physical signs, but a lot of mental ones as well. Obviously you're gonna feel fatigued. Um, a lot of people will. Uh like we mentioned, your internal systems are gonna be out of rhythm.So let's say you're drained all day, but you feel all your energy at night when you're trying to go to sleep when you should be going to sleep. That could be a big one. Um, or waking up in the middle of the night, like too early before you're supposed to wake up. Um, not being able to fall back asleep.That's another one. Um. Emotional exhaustion is a big one where you just feel kind of apathetic, you struggle to be motivated and, [...0.6s] um, [...0.6s] you have a hard time with empathy towards other people.You're very irritable, [...0.4s] um, sort of cynical [...0.6s] as far as your outlook on the world. Um, just very [...0.6s] melancholy is a great word for it. Um.You just feel kind of depressed, you know, which depression is a whole other topic, but that sense of, [...0.7s] you know, you just struggle with hope and motivation to get up every day.Yeah. And that obviously that's a spectrum. People are going to be different places [...0.6s] with that. But [...0.6s] those are two of the big ones, obviously struggling with energy throughout the day, just kind of feeling like you're dragging, you just don't have any [...0.5s] energy to get your task done.If you have brain fog, if you have trouble, trouble focusing on things, if you, [...0.6s] you know, you start a thought and you feel like it just kind of dissipates and disappears, you don't know where your mind's going, you have a hard time focusing on the task that you have at hand. It takes you a lot longer to do things.Uh, the list goes on and there's, there's a ton of things that can kind of be, [...0.7s] uh, some signs and symptoms there. But that's a lot of the big ones that people tend to struggle with.It sounds like they're sort of overlap with depression as well, or would you say that sort of like another bag of worms, can of worms?Right, right, [...0.6s] yeah um, i think, [...0.8s] well, i mean, our body is, [...0.4s] our health as a whole [...0.4s] is holistic in my opinion. And in the research i've done. So everything kind of ties together, and i would say that it can definitely be a factor in it.Um, there are certain things that, [...0.5s] uh, that [...0.6s] depression [...0.9s] has to be treated specifically, you know, same with ocd. Ocd has a very specific treatment. Um, so i can definitely [...0.6s] be part of somebody's path. You know, everybody's kind of different. They'll have different things that are affecting them.You know, somebody might be overweight, somebody severely overweight that could be causing them to have a lot more [...0.5s] physical fatigue, um, and different health problems versus somebody that might have depression, [...0.6s] um, or anxiety syndrome or, you know, anything like that.Yeah, yeah, makes sense. Can you, can you recover from burnout without taking time off from work? Like what, what would you say is like a [...0.6s] sort of like a general strategy for recovering from burnout, like, what would be a starting point?Yeah, i, [...0.6s] obviously if we could take off work and, and separate ourselves from our families and our responsibilities every day, that's gonna be a fast track to recovery.Yeah, but that's just not, this is not practical and it's not reasonable to expect anything like that, right? If you can have [...0.5s] access to something like that, that'd be awesome. But [...0.5s] for most people, it's not attainable.And one thing i would like to say is that [...1.1s] kind of like my story with ocd, having a little bit of hope [...0.7s] can be [...0.8s] transformation on itself.So i think one understanding that it is possible to recover from burnout [...0.5s] without having to give up your job, without giving up the things that you love. And a lot of it comes down to very simple small steps every day.And so it's not gonna be for most people, it's not gonna be an overnight thing. It's not gonna happen within a couple weeks. It does take a little bit of time, but as you build consistency with these things, small little winds every day, you will start to build that momentum.And it's the same with losing weight. You know, you don't look in the mirror after a week and see that you've lost forty pounds, but over four months you can look back and be like, i feel like a totally different person. These things really do work, um, as long as i can be consistent with them. And so, um yeah, i think it's definitely recoverable.I help people every day to improve, um, to make small wins and [...0.7s] see the results in their own life.And so [...0.8s] i'm not gonna promise a hundred percent because a lot of it does come down to [...0.6s] personal accountability and whether you can actually stick to the plan, do the things that you need to do, [...0.8s] which is also hard when you're already burning out, which is why i make things so simple, um, and actionable.Yeah, no, that's, that's great. So taking it, taking it one layer deeper here and actually going to the science, what would you say is actually happening on a physiological level when we're chronically stressed? Like how does that sort of cascade and, you know sort of turn into burnout? [...1.9s]Yeah, so [...0.8s] i don't wanna get too far in the weeds, yeah, but i do wanna kind of give that scientific background, obviously.Um, so within our body we have multiple different nervous systems. You know, you have your central nervous, your peripheral, [...0.7s] but one that people don't tend to know as well, [...0.4s] um, is the autonomic nervous system.So you have [...0.7s] two branches of that autonomic nervous system. You have your sympathetic, which is your fight or flight. You know, that's the one that [...0.5s] makes you perform, it makes you get up and take action.It's the thing that happens when your heart starts racing and [...0.4s] your mouth waters or actually your mouth gets dry. The opposite, um, your vision narrows, you know, you get, you just get ready to take action, right? Um, [...0.6s] that's your sympathetic. That's your fight or flight. That's your stress response. Um. It's obviously called different things, but that is your stress response.On the opposite end, the foil of that system is the parasympathetic. And so that is your rest and digest, um, as a lot of people call it.That is the one that takes over when it's time to relax, [...0.7s] unwind, recover, go to sleep, [...0.4s] digest your food, repair your body, all that stuff. So they're total opposites.Um, which is ironic that a lot of them use the same [...0.4s] connections within the body, the nerve, the neurons and [...0.6s] the different synapses and that kind of thing. But, um, they are very different and how they, [...0.7s] um, make your body react to different things.So the first, [...0.4s] the sympathetic is kind of the main character here where, hmm, [...0.4s] that is what is activated when you're stressed.And so stress can start or, excuse me, burnout can start with just simple being stressed. And it's something that spirals, um, over time. And so [...0.4s] once your stress system is activated, um uh, we'll probably talk a little bit more about cortisol and that kind of thing later.Um, as far as energy goes, but cortisol will spike, um, but will happen for people that are burned out is that their cortisol is just [...0.5s] mostly maxed out. It's just one level [...0.7s] at all times. It never, [...0.8s] you know, comes up and down. Instead, it's just constantly [...0.6s] maxed out. And that is what cortisol is your stress hormone, right?It's one of the stress hormones, yeah, it is. Um, so [...0.5s] typically the stress hormones are referred to as, you know, your adrenaline, epinephrine and, or epinephrine, but cortisol [...0.6s] just to kind of talk about it [...0.5s] while we're on the topic [...0.4s] cortisol, i like to think of it kind of like a taxi driver, a taxi cab where [...1.0s] the passengers are glucose, its energy, and cortisol is just transporting that energy to different parts of the body.And so [...1.0s] when your body is in a stress mode, when you activate that sympathetic system, what happens is your body needs energy to take action, right?Yeah. So it's that glucose [...0.5s] for your muscles to [...0.6s] perform to [...0.5s] attack or handle whatever situation that you're presented. And so cortisol as a result is gonna be higher because your body is transporting more energy, right?So that is why cortisol is seen as the bad [...0.4s] stress hormone because [...0.9s] it's a result [...0.8s] of that activation of that sympathetic system. So [...1.3s] is it necessarily bad?I would say no, because it's actually it has a lot of good benefits. There's a lot of good ways to look at cortisol and how to use it, leverage it [...0.6s] for good. So i try to kind of challenge that.Doctor andrew heberman recently came out with an episode talking about all this stuff, you know, maybe a couple months ago, and, [...0.4s] um, [...0.6s] it's nice that people are starting to kind of get the idea that cortisol isn't necessarily bad.It's, it's just a sign that something is wrong within your body, if that makes sense. Yeah, it's like a, [...0.4s] you're calling uber way too much. Your body's calling uber way too much. And it's transport, and that's, kind of the whole.I, sort of kind of, had this realization as you were just speaking. Is like, if cortisol is a taxi, cab driver, you know, driving the energy all around, no wonder why you're zapped out, cause you're always sympathetic.So now your body's always demanding to move the energy, and you only have so much energy, energy and even in reserves before you're just fully depleted.So you've exhausted all your energy, and you're basically running on fumes. Like, just basically, like, vital life at this point is what your body is trying to sustain itself by, and it's not even able to do really much more than that. [...2.0s] Yeah, interesting.Yeah. I, uh, i definitely tend to use a lot of car metaphors. So as we talk, if i [...0.6s] use cars in an imagery, [...0.4s] um, i'm just gonna give that up on the front end.But [...0.6s] yeah, that's absolutely like, that's a great way to think about it. Like you have run out of gasoline and you are just running on fumes. Like all the energy is spent.And, [...0.5s] um, if your cortisol, you know, talking about sleep and stuff, yeah, so you're supposed to have this trajectory where your cortisol is actually highest in the morning and it will slowly taper off throughout the day, which would make sense, right?Because you wanna start the day with as much energy as possible, kind of [...0.7s] either way at it as the day goes. And then by the time you go to sleep, your, you shouldn't really need energy, you're right. Your body's gonna start fall asleep.And then, you know, even in the first couple stages of sleep, uh, the first few cycles that you go through, your body isn't using hardly any energy to digest food, uh, or anything like that. So your metabolism is gonna be super low.But then as [...0.5s] the night goes and you're sleeping, your body's gonna start to wake up. Um, it's called the quarter [...0.4s] cortisol activation [...0.8s] response, i think something like that.The car, your cortisol activation response. Um, and so at a certain point in the middle of the night, it's gonna start to come back up. And so that's when you start having longer rim sleep, your body's, uh, using more energy. Your metabolism starts to wake up. And that's what actually causes you to wake up in the morning.And so then you wake up, [...0.5s] start building more energy. So i can that cortisol and then it goes back down. So, yeah, it's just, if you have a normal [...1.0s] cortisol response within your body, you're gonna have a lot of energy at the beginning of the day and it's gonna kind of taper throughout the day.But like you're saying, if you're [...0.6s] constantly burned out and you're stressed, you're on a ten all day, yeah, you have no time to recover, [...0.4s] you know, your systems are just always maxed out and so obviously you're gonna feel like garbage.Does this have any tie into what you were saying earlier about [...0.4s] when you, you know, people that are burned out or stress or always kind of sympathetic and how they have a hard time going to sleep or they wake up in the middle of the night.Is there any relation to what, what we're speaking about now to that specifically or [...1.1s] oh, absolutely, yeah um, it's almost [...1.0s] the cause of it and, you know, obviously there's a lot of [...0.4s] cause and effect, yeah, different, you know, it's multi factorial, but [...0.6s] one of the biggest factors in how you sleep at night is [...0.6s] part of the system, right?Um, [...1.9s] you have, [...1.3s] i'm trying to think how much detail i want to go in here, go down there, have it all. We can break it down.Yeah, [...1.0s] so, um, so like, i was just saying you have this daily cycle, yeah, with your cortisol, um, but you also have another internal system which some people, most people have heard this, um, maybe they haven't heard much about quarters all other than [...0.4s] the negative side, right, but you have what's called a circadian rhythm, yes, within your body.So hopefully some of our listeners have heard of that. Um, if you haven't heard of it, it's essentially just this twenty four hour internal clock within your body. Yeah um, the root word circa just means about, and then [...0.5s] dia circa circa dia, [...1.2s] it just means day.So about a day, about twenty four hours is what that word means. So your circadian rhythm is just this twenty four hour clock that your body runs on.Yes, and [...0.8s] that is [...1.4s] what controls a lot of your, your body's hormones, a lot of the natural systems, you know, when you wake up, when you get sleepy, how your body digest food, [...0.5s] um, all of this stuff. It, it controls so much of our body.And the funny thing is that there's one small piece in your brain. Um, you know what? You know, i'm talking about sheldon, if you heard of this, the piece in your belly hippocampus or [...0.5s] your amygdala, [...0.6s] it's [...0.5s] close. It's called your super cosmetic nuclei.Okay um yeah, most people have not heard of this, but it's a small part of your brain, is actually connected to your eyeballs, um, in some very intricate ways.But [...0.5s] this supergized medic nuclei is the conductor of your circadian rhythm. It is what controls when this clock starts and when it's, you know, when it activates certain things. And so [...0.7s] ideally we have a consistent clock every single day.And that, [...0.5s] that gives our, that scn, i'll just call the scn. So i don't have to say it every time. That gives the scn [...0.8s] an easy job for the day when you're consistent.Yeah. But [...0.5s] when you're waking up at different times every day, when you're going to sleep at different times, or if you're up in the middle of the night, or if you're having a lot of bright light at night, yeah, it's throwing that thing completely off. It's constantly trying to adjust.It likes our body likes homeostasis. It likes regular balance, yeah yeah, regulation. And so the more that we throw it off, the harder it's fighting to kind of get it back to normal. Hmm. And so [...0.9s] one of the biggest things in this is what i talk about as far as actionable tools.Waking up at the certain, [...0.5s] at a certain time of day every single day [...0.5s] will help in, it's called entrainment. It'll entrain that circadian rhythm to be consistent and it'll, it doesn't have to fluctuate as much and fight that fluctuation.And so, [...0.7s] yeah, so you have that internal twenty four hour clock, but you also have your circadian or not your circadian, your cortisol response. And it's connected to another system that's called your hpa axis.You heard of this [...0.6s] hpa, [...0.4s] no, [...0.9s] so your hpa axis so that you're in, i think you mentioned earlier, the hypothalamus, the hypothalam, hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis.Oh, yes okay yeah, yeah, so this hpa axis, it [...0.5s] controls [...0.9s] your stress response. Um, but it is also connected to that super cosmetic nuclei. Um, and i feel like i'm getting so far in the weeds, are probably losing some people.No, you're fine, but, [...0.8s] yeah, this hpa axis, so your hypothalamus [...0.5s] is also like a conductor. And so, okay, this is, we're talking now about the endocrine system, your hormones. So your hypothalamus sends a signal to your pituitary, your anterior pituitary, [...0.4s] and then it sends hormones to your adrenals.So your adrenals, also known as your kidneys, [...0.5s] they hold a lot of those stress hormones, those [...0.5s] cortical steroids, stress hormones that we talked about earlier. So [...0.9s] all of it is connected, right.Hopefully, that's, that's the idea i wanna give here is that there's different systems to one another. They're all feed exactly, that's the perfect way to describe it.Yeah, they're all negative feedback loops. Yeah um, so the idea of a negative feedback loop is that [...0.4s] once something is at its maximum, it will stop sending [...0.4s] whatever is causing that.So, yeah, if you're sending, if you're sending a signal that, hey, we are stressed, we need more energy, [...0.9s] your body is gonna send that cortisol.It's gonna send the energy that your body needs, yeah, [...0.8s] until it's resolved. But what's happening with people that are burnout and they're stressed? They're never getting that signal to turn it off, right, it's just keep, it just keeps going, it keeps producing cortisol, and that's what happens.That's when you have that constantly, that chronic elevated [...0.7s] accord is all, and all these other things, and so that's when you start running into issues, does so what you want, oh, sorry, keep going. [...1.2s]Now just gonna say that what you wanna do is get that back into normal, and start having [...0.8s] the highs and lows, which is actually good that you don't want any of these to be constantly at a maximum, to be constantly maxed out. Um, you do want that fluctuation every single day. That's what's normal.Yeah, so and something that, kind of, just came to my mind. Here was it seems like it's almost, like, a resource allocation, and with this, you only have so much of it.So would you say that it's, it's the switch not turning off or its resources getting depleted, and they're not being anymore, like, you're reaching into the bank, and there's nothing coming out anymore, but the switch is still open, so what does the body do at that point? [...1.2s]Yeah i mean, i think you, kind of, just answered it. It really is both where [...0.4s] you're, you're turning that signal on, like, you're, you're unable to, to switch over to that parasympathetic that listened to edges.So it's constantly sending the signal that i am in danger, i need resources, i need energy, like, send me more energy, right? But when you are out of energy, what is it gonna send you?You know, and that's when you start running into problems. Oh yeah, oh wow, okay, so these are essentially like symptoms like brain fog, fatigue.I mean, burnout is just basically like a physical manifestation of these like hormonal changes where now you're in a sense, you're essentially in a hormonal debt and your body has no idea, no, no way to figure it out other than just like, well, we're just gonna [...0.7s] run autopilot and see how far we can get, [...0.5s] you know, even, even on like a more like physical state.I mean, that this sort of depletion and sort of, uh, debt can trigger [...0.4s] incidences like, you know, soft tissue injury, you know, which is something i specialize in.So when i see people coming to me and they've been dealing with chronicle back pain, i have a lot of conversations with them and say, hey, you know, one of my other key fasets or one of my pillars here is breath.You know, so i say, hey, what kind of breath are you? I've never done, bro. I breathe all day.I'm like, well, yeah, you breathe, but do you really? You know, and then i mean, it all ties into the nervous system, right? And that's all we're trying to do here is we're just trying to help you regulate your nervous system a little better, get in touch with your body and have that awareness [...0.6s] to like when the check engine lights come on my car reference, right, that you pay attention to it hopefully, and, you know, figure out [...0.9s] an optimal way to resolve that before it becomes into a sort of catastrophic event, you know um, so that's, kind of, the idea here.Man, that's a lot of powerful stuff, and i don't think we went too far in the rabbit hole in the hormones. I, i enjoyed it. Thanks, thanks for that. Haha, yeah yeah, yeah, man, i could be, i could be long winded. I could get into the details, and, you know, i could.Sometimes when i talk to people in person, i just watch them, like, glaze over, cause i have no clue what i'm talking about. Hopefully somebody out there could appreciate the science and everything. Oh, yeah, that's, that's the stuff i love and i can talk about it all day. Love it, i love it.Alright, so [...0.5s] what, what are some myths that you found specific to burn out? Are there any, like, specific top ones that come to your mind? You're like, oh, yeah you know, this is something that a lot of people, even myself thought at one point, and it's just totally misconstrued, and what's actually the case is, you know, why?For whatever the case might be, [...0.5s] yeah, i think we did kind of hit on it a little bit earlier. Like i think people [...1.0s] misunderstand that [...0.5s] burnout is just tiredness.Yeah. There is such thing as just like pushing yourself and being exhausted, right? But being able to get a good night sleep and recovering do keep doing it.But [...0.4s] burnout, like we've been talking about, it's a very severe internal dysregulation. So [...1.0s] the systems in your body are completely out of whack.Your body's, [...0.5s] you know, constantly trying to fight [...0.6s] a fight that isn't, you know, really there. It just feels like it is. It's convinced that there's something that it needs to take care of and it just won't, it won't relax. Um.So that's a big one. It's just thinking that, [...0.6s] oh, i just need, i just need a little bit of rest. You know what you do. But there's a lot more to it. There's a lot more, [...0.4s] um, [...0.7s] realignment, reentrainment that needs to take place, some very [...0.5s] internal work that has to happen.There's also certain mental the skills and behaviors that you have to learn as well to prevent it from happening again. Cause you got here in the first place, you're likely to do it again, yeah um, without the right tools in place, so [...0.4s] that's a big one. And then there was another one that we kind of hit on earlier. What was it?Um, oh, i just think people think that [...1.4s] they just, they just need to push through, yeah, that [...0.4s] if i just keep going, eventually it'll be done what i'm doing.Yeah, i'll, i'll get to the other side, right? And i'll be okay, i'll be able to relax and, [...0.7s] you know, being in that place before it. That's just not true. Like you're more than likely, you're just gonna keep adding and it's just gonna get worse and worse.And so avoiding it and pushing it down and not admitting it is not gonna help anything, and the best thing to do is [...0.7s] admit that it's happening, acceptance.You know, you talk about breathwork, and i'm sure you know, a little bit of meditation and that kind of stuff, one of the biggest ways to relieve stress [...0.6s] and start healing is acceptance, is just letting it [...0.8s] happen and realizing that it's already here.Yeah, but it's, i am in this state. I don't need to fight [...0.6s] and avoid it. I don't need to push it down, but accept that it's here [...0.4s] and then take the next step forward.Um yeah, and so that's a big thing is is, is just [...0.5s] being okay with the shame, which nobody's gonna shame you, you know yeah, and with me, it's just like people were worried.Yeah, most people are gonna be worried about you, just like, hey, are you okay? Um, and it's, it's a mental thing. You just your pride takes over, you wanna say, like yeah, this is, [...0.7s] you know, i'm stronger than this. I can handle it. And it's just you get the right time. You just can't. Everybody gets their breaking point.Yeah, yeah, and so that's a big one, is just thinking, like, um, i can't tell anybody. Um like, i'm alone, and this is another one.It's just feeling like [...0.9s] i, i have to be the only one, yeah, that's struggling this hard. Like, everybody else is clearly making it through, so this is just me. And i think that's, that's a lie as well. Hmm hmm, [...0.7s] so i know we just, kind of, also talked a little bit about the hormone piece.If we have, um you know, if someone's, kind of, in question on whether their hormones are regulated, could they just go to their general doctor and say, hey, you know, i was listening to those podcasts, and some dude said my hormones are jacked up, so i wanted to get it checked out.What would be the strategy here if they're really concerned, you know, i'm sure there's one piece where, yeah, gen med doctors are gonna have one scope, one lens that they look through will probably refer you to an endocrinologist to get further analysis.And if it's that point, if you're at that point, you know, there's probably a cascade of other things that are going on as well. But generally speaking, what would you say for someone who, who's interested in getting their blood work and really want it, what really wants to take a look at that? [...1.4s]Yeah i mean, i would definitely [...0.4s] not be against it. Um, i think there's a lot of wisdom and, and getting those, those answers, right? You know, [...0.6s] it's very [...0.4s] tangible data that you can get and say, oh, this thing is happening to me. So, yeah um, i would definitely not say i'm against it by any means.What i would say though, and this is just a personal belief i am about [...0.9s] prevention, um, taking, taking action in your own hands first, yeah, and then using medicine as a last resort.Yeah, because i'm not gonna, i'm not gonna demonize medicine or [...0.7s] a big pharma or anything like that, which, you know, that again, that's a whole other conversation.Yeah, but i do think there's a time and place for medicine, and yes, i'm, i'm not saying that it's bad by any means, but what i am against is using it as a crutch, yeah, because it's not gonna solve, it's not gonna solve the root problem, right?Yeah. If you [...0.4s] are doing the same behaviors, this one crutch is not gonna be enough. You're just gonna need another crutch in the, yeah, [...0.8s] or you know what? You, you're taking thirty pills, you know, just to, to [...0.5s] alleviate all the symptoms of the first pill that you took.Yeah, so it's just kidding, it's a rabbit hole. And [...0.9s] what [...0.8s] the sad part is you probably could have fixed it. I'm not gonna say always, but most of the time you could have fixed it with some simple behavior change [...0.7s] and you would have avoided that mess entirely.You know, and so i think [...0.5s] trying [...0.6s] specific behaviors first, you know, and that's why, again, i have my community, my, my program, my coaching is because i wanna help people take those steps first.And if we decide like, hey, something really is [...0.8s] i miss here, like something is wrong, i think you might need to be checked out for this or that, then you take that step.But until you start taking accountability for your own actions and your behaviors, i don't think getting [...0.8s] medical treatment is the first step, if that makes sense.No, definitely. Yeah i mean, [...0.7s] i agree with you where the western medicine model, you know, it's good for certain things, but it's very reactive, whereas we can take a lot more of a proactive approach. There's more of a holistic lens you can look at, sort of um, all the puzzle pieces on your own.Before, you know, and become as, as informed as you can as a consumer, before you subscribe to a certain methodology or practice, and, you know, try things out before [...0.4s] either you got to go under the knife, be prescribed a certain medication, or whatever the case might be. Courses is case by case.Right, um, but definitely, [...0.4s] um, information is out there, especially in this day and ages available. So [...0.7s] no, that's great. Let's, uh, so let's segue into our next topic here, which is gonna be sleep. And i know it sounds super basic. It's like, yes, yeah, i want sixty eight hours of sleep. I get it.Sure, but pete, a lot of people underestimate just how foundational this is. So i wanna hear a little bit more about how you break this down for us, and what's actually happening when we sleep in, and why it matters so much for recovery. [...1.5s]Yeah, absolutely, this is [...0.6s] one of my favorite topics to talk about, so i'm gonna try to keep it succinct, um, but give some good details here. Yeah, i think rest in our western culture, rest is just, [...0.6s] it's just not seen [...0.6s] as important.Yeah, it's, i would say demon eyes, but it's definitely [...0.5s] not a priority. Um, we are all about the grind, and i need to make more money, i need to do more things, and, [...0.5s] uh, all this stuff is just all about production, like how much am i doing?And [...0.6s] as i've grown in my own personal faith as a christian, um, just understanding how i relate to, to god and everything.I, i realized that there's so much in the scriptures about [...0.4s] importance of rest. And i think that that is evident and when our body needs it, right, so [...0.6s] the more you lean into science, the more you realize that [...0.6s] man, sleep is foundational. Like you cannot, [...0.7s] you cannot perform, you cannot excel if you are not getting proper rest. Like eventually it will catch up to you and you will hit a breaking point.Like the people that are [...1.0s] doing the absolute most in the world right now are most likely [...0.6s] getting at least some good rest. Oh yeah, otherwise they're gonna be hitting the wall very soon.So [...0.5s] it is foundational and i cannot [...0.4s] overstate that enough. Like [...0.4s] sleep is the crux of everything, is the first step in my program.It's the very first thing that we fix because [...0.4s] everything else is gonna be built on sinking sand. Right? If you don't have solid sleep, you're not getting a proper recovery, you're not in training that circadian rhythm.All of this stuff is kind of useless, right? Um, i like to, [...0.7s] i like to talk about, [...0.6s] uh, again, here's another car metaphor, but a lot of people [...0.4s] try to, like i was just saying, they try to do more, right?They're trying to [...0.5s] get the next job or go make more money or, you know, [...0.4s] add more relationships. I mean the list goes on.They're trying to do all this extra stuff. And so i kind of think about it, like [...0.5s] somebody has a sports car like a ferrari or astomar or whatever. Um, [...0.5s] and they're adding on new wheels or adding the spoiler there, [...0.7s] you know, a new cooling system, they put a turbo on it, like all this stuff to make it go faster. They're trying to do more, they're trying to [...0.5s] win the next race.Right, right, the problem is they're doing all this stuff to be more productive or win the race, but the engine's broken. They haven't changed the oil, like you know, through the basics, yeah, the, [...1.7s] what are they called, the spark plugs are misfiring, right?All the stuff in the engine that makes the car actually run in the first place is all [...0.4s] out of whack. And so it's, it's futile all you're adding all this extra stuff to make the car go faster, but you're not taking care of the engine, the one thing that actually makes it go.And i, i like to relate that to our internal system, all the stuff that we've been talking about. Yeah like, if you are not [...0.6s] taking care of your internal systems [...0.5s] with sleep as the, the foundation, everything else is is, is almost pointless.It's just a kind of waste of time. And so [...0.7s] all that to say that sleep is reliable, it is the one thing because it helps with, you know, recovery. It helps clear out the, all the stuff that makes you have that mental fog. You know, it wipes all that out. Um, [...0.6s] it helps you.They already talked about recovery, but, i mean, the list goes on. It's, it's one of those things that, like, it's so overlooked, [...0.6s] but it's foundational.Yeah, absolutely, that's something i talked about. I used to work in safety and economics, and i worked in a very, it was very labor artist industry that i worked in. I was, i was one of the health safety injury prevention guys.So i didn't work a full shift with these guys, but these guys are working twelve sixteen hours. And when i started taking over new hire training, [...0.4s] you know, i talked about nutrition which is one key there, and the other piece was sleep.And i said, you know, what a lot of science says is you wanna be in seven and nine out seven nine hours of sleep. And i say, oh, and then people, kind of, laugh and check on, like i know.And this setting is probably not realistic, but if you can manage six hours, like, at men, and then when you, when you're on your off days, shoot for six to eight, that's gonna keep you right clear, that's gonna be best for you.Energy drinks ain't gonna do dick for you. You know, if you're just trying to run on fumes day after day, [...0.4s] um, it's not ideal and in this setting, you know, you're gonna, you're bound for an injury. You're gonna come see me in my office, say my shoulders pulled or something like that.Because now you've been in a deficit for so long, and you finally reached a breaking point. Like, let's not get there. Sleep is super ideal, [...0.4s] and i, you know, especially for the new hires, i even talked about, like, memory consolidation.I'm like, hey, like you're in this new job setting here and you're trying to learn a new task, you need to make sure you're tapping that rem sleep because that's when your body is, that's when your brain is going into memory consolidation mode.And i explain like file cabinet, i'm like your brain is one big file cabinet and you just put in a bunch of new files in this week here.When you're in new hire, learning this new job now, your brains got to organize that shit. So, yeah, make sure you're getting some sleep so your file cabinet can be organized the next day so you remember how to do things.Otherwise you're gonna be brain fog, you're not gonna go your head from your butt and you're gonna be, you know, walk, people gonna be running circles around you, [...0.4s] you know, so no, i totally agree with you.There's so much, so much importance to getting good quality rest. It's a balance. It's the yin yang, [...0.5s] you know, and, um, it's just not sexy, [...0.4s] you know, it's to sleep when you're dead culture and it's just like, nah, you need to grow past that, you know, that's that's, that's not what it's about at all, you know yeah yeah, and [...0.5s] you kind of reminded me, as you were talking, i did a, i did an inductive analysis study last year, um, with college students [...0.4s] and [...0.7s] i was interviewing a lot of them and i was just kind of getting their perceptions on sleep. Right?A lot of this [...0.4s] stuff that we just been talking about, like sleeps for the dead, [...0.6s] you would not be, so you would be surprised, um, at how many of them [...0.8s] said that sleep was the last priority [...0.5s] on their list, right?It was the first thing to go. Um, [...0.6s] they saw it as like, i have other better things to be doing. Like there's so much more i need to be doing. Um, and these are college athletes. Yeah, yeah i mean, it's, there's so much data out there showing how poor college students are sleeping.I mean, it's one of the worst populations [...0.9s] of all people groups really is college students because they're [...0.6s] so stressed with different homework assignments and keeping a social life and working to pay tuition and all this stuff.Yeah, just not sleeping. But the sad part about it, you were saying the memory consolidation, our learning processes take place when we're asleep. And so i'm reading research articles about how college students academic performances going through the floor.I mean, it's just awful. Yeah like these people are not sleeping, they're being told like sleep's not that important, you just need to keep grinding. Yeah, and [...0.7s] there, [...0.4s] yeah, they either burn out and they drop out or they just kind of crawl across the finish line. Um, and then they're right into the workforce doing the same thing.Yeah, just, it's just this whole, [...0.5s] yeah, this whole message that sleep is not as important as it is, man, it's just kind of sad. It's like a rude induction into adulthood, into like early adulthood. And that's not the way it should be. I mean, you literally die if you don't sleep. You know like, i remember hearing about that.Like, there was like, a, [...0.5s] this, like, a gamer that was streaming for, like, i don't know, a week. And then they just died just straight up. Like, whoa, like, that was a while ago.I don't know if it was a week, but it was a certain amount of time. They just stayed up, and i'm like, holy crap, dude, even navy seals, like, when they do hell week, they're still getting micro naps dude.Like, i was in the navy myself, and i, kind of, i was able to experience that when i was in san diego.I saw them training doing all the things man, and they get put through the ringer. But even, you know, every few hours they get, you know, they get a little cat nap at ten to fifteen minutes, and then they got m sixteen is going off the next minute and then they're up and running on the beach again.But yeah, it's it's, it's crazy just to think about that. Um, there's not a priority on this.I feel like there's becoming more of an awareness with this sort of topic though, like with, you know, books like why we sleep by doctor matthew walker, like a lot of good research there. Doctor andrew huberman, he's bringing a lot of these sorts of things [...0.4s] to sort of like the surface.And, um, with all the research being put into it, it's like, hey, like we need to pay attention to this because there's clearly [...0.5s] a gap between where we are as a society and how we need to be treating humanity, [...0.5s] you know, as a whole.That that's kind of kind of the piece there, you know, [...0.4s] yeah yeah, [...0.7s] yeah, there's some great research by them. Uh, i love doctor matt walker and, and doctor hugh guberman as well.Um, [...0.5s] they are [...1.0s] foundational and my kind of understanding of sleep, you know, they [...0.6s] were actually part of what peaked my interest a little bit at first, and then i just kept diving deeper and deeper.And so like the stuff that they're talking about is so great and i'm thankful for people like them that have such a big platform to put that information out there. Like you said, yeah, [...0.9s] this is a great conversation here.So what would be some things [...0.4s] for listeners like if they had some questions, like the first one might be, hey, i get eight hours of sleep, but i'm still exhausted. Is their body signaling something to them? Like, does that mean they're burned out? Or what would you say is going on at that point [...0.8s] in your mind?Yeah, i definitely think it could, [...0.6s] it could signal some burnout. Um, [...0.6s] the, the issue there might be, [...0.6s] you might be getting the duration, and so if you read, kind of, some of this research on sleep, there's different terms.So you have, like, sleep duration, [...0.5s] um, sleep quality, [...0.5s] sleep timing, like, there's different terms, and stuff.And so it's, it's not just one, one thing, right, so you might have the duration, but you're not getting the quality, the depth of sleep. And so different things can affect sleep quality or sleep depth things like having caffeine late at night can, [...1.2s] kind of, circumvent sleep [...0.4s] depth.So [...1.3s] that's one thing [...0.4s] that i see. Yeah, that's a big one is caffeine in itself has a ten to twelve hour half life. So if you're right before you go to sleep, like, you're basically going to sleep on a full caffeine reserve, you know yeah um, that's a big piece right there.I think, uh, [...1.1s] having large meals before bed can be a big one, yeah, and obviously all of the [...0.6s] energy cortisol talk that we mentioned earlier.Like, that could be huge. And your body is just not fully relaxing and [...0.5s] recovering while you're, you might be laying down for eight hours, but you're not really getting that rest.I like to say too, like, when you eat a big meal before you go to sleep, like your body's allocating resources and energy to digest that food, so it's not getting true full rest. Like i was, uh, i follow this guy, brian johnson. He's like that, uh, the anti deaf guy, haha, [...0.8s] vampire looking dude. But, um yeah, he had some solid research.He was talking about. He said, yeah like, i don't eat four hours before i go to sleep, so my last meals before at five p m, you know, if i'm trying to go to sleep before, like, at like nine to ten and ten is like, like like night owl status for him.So [...0.7s] that's a big piece there too, man, but, yeah, that's the other piece of it, is, like, resource allocation. So, like, if you're eating something, your body's gotta digest it. It's not just gonna go to sleep and say, okay, we're just sleeping, we're not digesting. Um, what's your take on wearables?You know, and i i i have, i have my own lens and perspective on wearables, you know, but, you know, specific to, like, sleep, like like, what bands or, or rings, or monitoring hrv [...0.5s] as an indicator to sleep quality. Like, what's your take on, on these types of devices? [...1.1s]Yeah, that's a good question. I, uh, i think they definitely [...0.5s] are beneficial. I think if you are somebody that is wanting to learn more about [...0.5s] your health and, kind of, take some data in, on that and see, you know, some of the things that are happening with your body. Yeah um, i definitely think they could be, they could be helpful.I will say though, i think [...0.6s] this is, kind of, my own personal experience as well, right, people get married to the data.Yeah, and, [...0.5s] and they're, like, [...0.8s] they let it [...0.5s] dictate how they feel throughout the day, so [...0.4s] especially [...0.6s] if your whoop and or your aura ring says you had a poor night of sleep last night, you should feel like crap today.Then you're, it's almost like that the, the law suggestion. It's just like, you're gonna convince yourself, like, oh yeah, i really don't feel as great today. Yeah you know, whether, whether it's true or not, yeah, and so i think that can also be harmful.I think overall, i would say that, you know, i'm totally for them. I used to have a little band. Yeah um, honestly, i stopped it because i was a college student. I could afford thirty bucks a month or whatever it was, yeah, on my budget. Yeah um you know, my fiance is ordering.I think they're great. Um, it gets some, [...0.4s] some good data, but i would say just to, kind of same with apple watches. You know, a lot of this stuff is not, it's not a hundred percent accurate.And i think [...0.6s] understanding that going into it, knowing like this is kind of giving me a [...0.5s] big picture, but it's not [...0.5s] a hundred percent accurate. Like it is not [...1.2s] one hundred percent accurately [...0.5s] tracking my sleep, tracking my, you know uh, menstrual cycle or, or whatever, right?Like there's gonna be, there's gonna be some given take there as far as the data's concern. So, yeah, i think just understanding that is, is, uh, it's crucial. But, yeah, i think it can definitely be helpful, yeah, when [...0.5s] appropriately.Yeah yeah, it'd be interesting if, like i was kind of thinking about this is like you have a sleep journal. So like when you wake up, like that's the first thing.You don't even go to the whoop app for using a whoop band, you like have your sleep journal and then you basically like indicate like, oh, what was sleep quality? What was sleep duration? Like, what would you rate that on a scale of like zero to ten?You have a couple other, like, subjective questions you answer, and then you look at what the data says, and, like okay, well, i was honest with myself here, and this is what the data saying, like, how true is that, but i think, kind of, going back to, like, specifically wook bands.I used to work in with military special forces, [...0.8s] and [...0.8s] in that setting, they all have, like, wook bands, and [...1.5s] they would basically challenge each other to see how much of a strain score they could get.So, like, oh, i got, like, a, i got a ten, like, oh, you gotta tell your pussy dude, i got fucking twenty dude. So you have to use these devices in good faith.I think that's what i'm getting at here. This is the other piece of it, so, [...0.4s] yeah, and well, yeah, like you said, you know, i do, i do crossfit just kind of recreationally, just, yeah, i love.There's a lot of reasons, it's just very short and succinct. It's like yeah, get in and did workout, get out, yeah, intensity just look amazing. But, yeah, there's so many people like, i, i would meet talk to you and they be like, yeah, my, it's telling me my score is low, so i'm taking it easy today. And i'm like, what do you feel?All right, yeah like i mean yeah, i feel like i wanna work out, but it's telling me not to. I'm like yeah you know, they're like, i get it, but it's, yeah i mean you know, there's certain we have intuition for a reason.Yeah yeah, but, you know, if somebody is struggling, you know, if they're like, if they really are overtraining or something like that, i feel like, you know, for some, some serious athletes like that, that stuff can definitely be helpful, but i feel like the average person is not gonna be overtraining. They're not gonna be pushing themselves to the absolute limits physically.And so, [...0.4s] yeah, i think take it with a grain of salt, but, um yeah, they took, they can be helpful.I like to say, it's sort of, kind of like um, just creating awareness right more than anything, right, like, whenever i, if i'm teaching someone how to count macros, i'm say, okay, i know it's annoying, but i want you like, weighing and measuring your food for at least the first two to three weeks, right.Just get an eye for what portion looks like, and then you can take it on your own, dude, you gotta figure it out, right. It's the same idea there, you know kind of, goes the same. Yeah, and, [...0.4s] yeah, no, that's great, that's great.Um, so let's dive a little bit into stress management here. I wanna talk about this, and quite honestly, i think we're gonna have to, have to [...0.5s] do another episode, my brother, we are, we're tracking, we're having such a good conversation, i'm loving this.We're getting a lot of content that we're talking about a lot of different topics as well to, um, but let's dive into it, man, um, stress management and the nervous system. You know, we've talked about [...0.4s] why burnout happens, right, and why sleep is foundational.So let's get into what people actually can do on a daily basis to manage their stress response and start shifting your nervous system [...0.5s] back towards balance. So, like, let's start off with nervous system regulation techniques. What are some of your favorites, some of your go tos for this sort of thing? [...1.4s]Yeah um, [...0.5s] i will say, like, they're [...0.6s] my approach to breathing techniques. And, and that kind of stuff is gonna be two fold.So i have, [...0.6s] uh, [...0.4s] different reasons for why use both. But, yeah, you mentioned breath work earlier, and i think that is one of the best ways to tap into the different nervous systems and, kind of, get [...0.5s] switch you between.Cause you can actually switch one or the other on or off depending on how you do it through the breath. That's how powerful, yeah, just through the breath. And so [...0.5s] i think, um, and i, again, doctor human coming up again, but i heard about the physiological side from him.And i think him and his team at stanford, yeah kind of put it on the map, um, as far as their research. Uh, and i think we're gonna have a link to a lot of these studies and stuff that we're talking about. And i think their study is in that [...0.6s] and that document.But yeah, the physiological sai is a big one, [...0.4s] um, because it [...0.7s] almost instantaneously switches that sympathetic off and turns on the parasympathetic. It gets you from [...0.4s] stressed and overwhelmed to relaxed [...0.4s] and calm. And so that's a big one. I think box breathing is great for a lot of people.Just like four seconds in, yeah, hold four seconds, four seconds out, hold four seconds and just repeat that. Yeah yeah um, those are two really good ones.I've also, [...0.5s] my first semester as a college student, it was my first class. I was a psychology one o one or, you know, whatever it was first intro to psychology.And i remember she talked about, [...0.6s] uh, a three seven breathing, so prolong x x, [...0.7s] yeah, long x x, because of how it, um, [...0.8s] how it affects the different neurons and stuff. And it slows the heart rate down.So you have three seconds in with a brief pause and then seven seconds out. Yeah, and so i used to do, i did that all through college [...0.4s] until i learned somebody's other ones. I would just [...0.6s] take that three seconds in slow exhale, yeah, and you can feel your heart rate start to slow down as you do it. So, yeah, i would say those are three, like, super easy to do [...0.6s] techniques.Love that. What about, like, something like building stress resiliency and like stress avoid versus stress avoidance? Or do you have any, like techniques that you would integrate with this?Yeah, absolutely, um, this is a big one and this is [...0.5s] one of those things that [...1.0s] help me with ocd more than anything. Um, and it's mindfulness, mindfulness breathing.I'm not sure if you've heard of this. [...1.2s] Um yeah. My phone is breathing. It's basically where and there's different types. I mean, this is another one of those things in the literature that is argued. People say this one's better or that one's better. Yeah um, but one of the most common ones, um, is [...0.7s] just being able to sit with your thoughts. And so the way that you do it, this is how i learned it.I think it's, i don't know if it's buddhist or [...0.7s] hindu or, you know, it has, you're like, watching your breath is kind of the idea here. Yeah. So [...0.6s] the way, [...0.4s] yeah, i, then i think the name of it was anapana or anapastai, something like that. You can definitely look it up on youtube.But essentially what you do is you sit, you dedicate three to five minutes at first. Uh, it's a lot harder than you think just sit for three minutes, especially if you have stress and anxiety.But you just sit, you kind of close your eyes [...0.5s] and all you're doing is focusing on the breath as it enters and kind of touches your upper lip.Alright, so either [...0.8s] as it, you feel it as it comes out your nose or as it touches your upper lip, you know, for guys who have mustache or whatever, you can kind of feel it. And so your focal point is on that part of your face.And what you're doing is just you sit, you relax, and all of your focus and attention is on that part of your face. But what will happen, and it happens to everybody.It's the whole point of this practice is that your mind is gonna start to wonder, yeah, you're gonna have thoughts that are, they're gonna come in.And [...0.4s] if you're somebody that is stressed [...0.8s] and anxious and worried all the time, thinking worst case scenario, all this, what you're gonna do is attach to those thoughts. Yeah, you're gonna start chasing it down rabbit holes.You're gonna think, [...0.6s] you know, oh, what if, what if i don't do this thing, and then that thing's gonna happen, and hey, next thing, you know, three minutes are up, and you're like, wait, i was supposed to be focusing on my breath, and now i'm thinking about so and so passing away.Yeah, it's just like you go down these crazy trails, yeah, and so what you do. The whole point of it is, [...0.5s] like you mentioned earlier, awareness, so you build that awareness saying, oh, i'm, i'm thinking about this thing, right, uh, i'm thinking about what i'm gonna have for dinner tonight, and then you say i'm gonna refocus, and so you, the the skill here is refocusing back on your breath and on that part of your face, and you just do that every time you have a thought you refocus, yeah, you have another thought you refocus, and [...0.5s] it seems like, okay, how's that gonna help anything, but it's building this muscle in your mind of refocusing instead of wandering, instead of, like, going off on these different [...0.4s] rabbit trails and [...0.4s] getting attached to these thoughts that are just thoughts because that's what i mean. That's all they are.At the end of the day, it's just a thought. I like to think of it, you know, when i'm doing it, i just kind of pictured as like a cloud just kind of comes in, yeah, and it goes away. Yeah, they just come and go.But if you don't understand that, you just think, oh, this is a thought, like this is a real thing, i need to figure this out instead of [...0.4s] just letting it go and letting it pass.And so again, i mentioned earlier, like the acceptance thing, like you have a thought, you accept whatever thought it is. It could be so stupid, [...0.5s] but you just accept that you're having it, and you just let it sit there until it goes away and then you're right back on the breath.Yeah, and that's it. It, it is a skill. It is a hundred percent skill. It took me months of practice every single day where i could get to a point where i have a triggering thought or i have an obsessive thought, obviously the ocd, right? You obsess over something and being able to [...0.4s] not get attached to it, not react emotionally.That's another big thing is not reacting [...0.8s] positive or negative to any kind of thought. You just are kind of in this neutral, like calm state. You just [...0.5s] objectively see the thought and then you come back to present.Yes, and so over time, as you consistently do this and you work on it, build that muscle. Um, you get to wear [...0.6s] stressful situations are gonna happen, right?You're gonna have things that are gonna happen, [...0.7s] but you've built this skill of awareness and control, and so you're not letting yourself [...0.6s] freak out, you're not letting these things take control of you.I said it's vice versa. You're in control, you accept. Okay, i'm afraid in this situation. Oh, i wanna say this thing to this person. Like i'm angry or, [...0.5s] you know, i'm scared of this happening, but you don't dwell on it.You don't let it take control. Instead you say, okay, i'm gonna [...0.6s] stay calm. Yeah, i just letting it happen. Like i feel this, but i'm not, it is not part of me, you know, you're trying to get the idea here, like the attachment.Yeah, you're more resilient to the situation is what it is. I've used this technique and i've used it more from their approach of like you know, same idea. You're sitting down for three to five minutes and then you literally just focus on your breath, but you have the sort of thought of, i am breathing in and i am breathing out and that's all your pain.Like i am breathing in, i'm inhaling and i am exhaling. You do that the whole time. And again, [...0.5s] i used to, um, or there was a guru, his name is ramdos and he was like one of those like master meditator guys, super laid back guy. You can find him online.But he had this, i remember him saying that, like you know, think of like you're sitting down in front of a lake and the lake is just kind of flowing, right?And all of a sudden the butterfly comes by, starts finally, oh, butterfly, he paid attention to it, [...0.6s] but then you come back to the lake and then that's just, it's still running is what it is. And you're just kind of in that moment, present moment is what it is, right?Like there is, there is no future, there is no past, there's only now, that's all that matters. And that's all this is bringing to, is that awareness of the present moment. So that's really, really powerful stuff, man. Thanks for sharing that one.Yeah, there's [...1.1s] absolutely, that's again, that's one of those things that healed me almost more than anything, like [...0.4s] being able to have resilience in your mind. And i think that was great, what you were saying, like it's just the present moment and there's so many ways to [...0.4s] practice mindfulness.Yeah, do it while you're eating or while you're driving or whatever. Like you said, it's just [...0.7s] taking focus on the present moment, what is happening around me. You can even use things like grounding techniques, um, which is another, [...0.7s] another skill. But, yeah, it's just being in the present moment and not getting attached to the past or the future.Yeah, no really powerful stuff and just in the mindfulness, the whole mindfulness approach, i think i first learned about this from [...0.5s] eckertolly.Um, it was like one of his first books he wrote, and i was kind of exposed to that and i didn't know what to make of it at the time, but it was kind of my, my beginning still whole journey of mindfulness and what it truly meant. So, yeah, it's really powerful stuff. So thanks, thanks for sharing that brother.Yeah, it's good, absolutely. Um, [...0.4s] alright, so before we wrap this up, i put a call out on my mbt [...0.5s] school community and ask what questions people had.I said, hey, i got this master, master burnout specialist coming on the podcast next week. Anybody's got questions. I'm gonna give you all some answers. So really excited for this part here.This is kind of like really like a shotgun round of, of q and a, [...0.4s] um, through the school community. So we're gonna go [...0.5s] right through this. Um, so i had one question here and we, and anything we went over, you know, we can just kind of do a little recap as well.But, um, first question comes from sandra jones. And she says how to, she wants to learn how to avoid burnout in current society.While there is lots of talk about self care, employers don't acknowledge their contributions to burnout and are often not supportive. I guess changing jobs is the answer, but how do you prove the organization or the person is, is the cause?How do you prove whether the organization or the person is a cause? [...1.6s] Yeah, i think, i mean, [...0.8s] i don't know if this is actually answering what she was specifically asking here, but i think what we were just talking about, building that, that mental resilience is gonna be huge. Yeah um, [...0.7s] and again, i think that's gonna be the first step.Instead of placing the blame on anyone or anything else, [...0.7s] focusing on yourself, and what are you doing internally [...0.5s] to avoid [...0.6s] that burnout, taking ownership.Yeah, and so if you are actively [...0.7s] taking control of the accountability you're working on, you know, showing up every day and doing that five minutes of mindfulness, um, [...0.5s] doing these different breathing techniques, you know, if you're at work, and so, and so comes up to you and, and has this confrontation with you and you start to, you know, normally you would have been [...0.4s] pissed off all day.Yeah, but you start implementing a physiological sigh or a box breathing to calm yourself down and get focused back on your work. You know, you might just be able to stay in that same environment.You might be able to, to be resilient and that, [...0.4s] you know, maybe not ideal environment until you can get to a place where you can actually thrive.So yeah, i think [...0.7s] at least try to take some accountability and if those things [...0.5s] don't seem to work out, if you're just constantly in confrontation and, yeah, just feel this other person or this organization has [...0.8s] suck the life out of me, then, [...0.6s] you know, why are, i would say, why are you there?Like i get, you know, people need jobs, but it's like there's so much more to life than just, you know, than a paycheck. So, yeah you know, maybe taking the time to, to put yourself out there and find another opportunity that better aligns with you and [...0.5s] is gonna support you.And oh, yeah, i think definitely taking that accountability first before blaming anybody else. I like that approach as well. And, you know, in this type of situation, it's like, [...0.6s] oh, i mean, really in any situation, you can't control the outcomes of others. You can only control what's in your own hands and your own situation, right.So it's kind of [...0.5s] looking inward versus outward, figuring out what the situation is and what you truly want. Cause i've come to realize this is a lot of people struggle with answering that question, like, what do you want, really?Yeah you know, and, [...0.9s] and it just as you were saying that, it just the idea of, like, stoicism has kind of resurfaced. Yeah, [...0.4s] and i think there's some great stuff in there. You know, i don't agree with all that everything that stoicism is about.But there is something to say about [...0.4s] being able to remain calm [...0.4s] and grounded regardless of what's happening around you. You can always control how you respond to things. Yes, not what's gonna happen around you.Yeah, and i would even shift the mindset. We didn't really talk about mindset a whole lot, but shifting the perspective of like, oh, i'm in this awful situation. Like what was me and instead saying, i am facing a huge challenge that's gonna make me stronger.So like yeah, i'm in this environment, it's basically like treat it like the gym.Like you now have this resistance that's gonna make you stronger. And so instead of looking at it from a negative point of view, you could say, oh, this is gonna help me build some mental resilience and some emotional regulation and all this stuff.And when i get out of this context and into something new, i'm gonna have a whole new seal set that's gonna make me a stronger person, yeah, enjoy life better in a different way. So, [...0.5s] you know, it's all about, [...0.5s] yeah, it's all about perspective.I think it's reframing sort of. It, it's like a, it's like, i don't, it's, it's rather than saying, oh, i, i have to, it's like, oh no, i get to is, kind of, idea right here, right, yeah, so reframing the whole mindset is, is a big piece here.And like i said that we're probably gonna end up recording another episode where we will start to go down that rabbit hole a bit more. Haha, [...0.4s] but i, i think that there's a lot of power, so hopefully, hopefully that helps you out.Sandra gives you some insight there. Um, another question she had as well is what makes the best impact on, on burnout. Would you say, like, it's diet?It's exercise. I mean, i, you know, we talked about the whole holistic approach [...0.4s] and, you know kind of the starting points, but what would you is there like like [...0.4s] the lowest hanging fruit in terms of making the, the most change for this sort of situation? [...1.7s]Yeah i mean, it's so hard to just pick one. Um, haha, but i i, because i think it obviously depends on the context and, yeah, things that you're already doing.I think, yeah, fixing the sleep is [...0.4s] the, probably the foundation, like, that's the most important thing. Yeah um, that's gonna help again get those systems back in place.Um, and we didn't really talk about it, but just real fast, like one of the easiest implementable tools [...0.6s] to fixing sleep, to fixing cortisol and all this stuff is getting sunlight first thing in the morning.Yeah um, this is, this is a big, like andrew huberman thing, like, but it's [...0.5s] again, i've mentioned it earlier. So in the literature, it's called a zeitgever. It's these external [...0.6s] cues that tell our body where it is in time.And light is the strongest zeitgever. It's the strongest external cue [...0.4s] for where our body is in time. And that, [...0.7s] that sunlight is gonna actually reset almost all that stuff. And okay, everybody's different, but that's gonna be the biggest, yeah, fix for some of those internal systems.Yeah. And then as far as energy goes, i mean, it will help with the cortisol and all that stuff. But, [...0.6s] um, another [...0.4s] great way to get energy is to actually be physically active and exercise.Um. It seems counterintuitive to like, oh, [...0.4s] being active and working out is gonna take energy. But our bodies are actually, it's kind of paradox where like you're recharging your battery, so to speak, as you exercise. Yeah, so you end up having more energy because of mitochondrial [...0.6s] reproduction and like all this stuff. Like, so exercise is another big one. So, yeah, i think fixing sleep and then getting some physical activity.Those are two, the big ones. Yeah, another combo i've heard as well is grounding with the, with the sunlight.So i mean, if you're outside, yeah, able to get that first peak of the sun, right as it breaks the horizon, um, going barefoot on some ground and just getting that, um, getting that grounding effect as well as is another powerful one [...0.8s] ties your nervous system.Yeah um, all right, i got a gina messi here. Excited to hear what he has to say. As a high anxiety person [...0.6s] addicted to endurance sports, i've been in a state of chronic exhaustion for twenty plus years.I just started breathwork meditation and tense [...0.5s] and release as recommended by my therapist a couple months ago, and already feel a difference. So that kind of ties back to our conversation about like, again regulating the nervous system. And i had conversations with this individual as well.And that's kind of a conversation we had is like, hey, you know, you're just been in, you've been in this constant fight flight, you know, sympathetic state essentially.So now it's basically getting in touch with what it means to be parasympathetic. And that's the case for a lot of people is, you know, they're always go go go go, go. And they don't know how to turn it off.It's almost like uh like the systems on overdrive, autopilot and overdrive and you have to just take charge of the helm again to get back into control. Um, so, [...0.6s] yeah, that's, that's a really good, [...0.6s] really good one there. Thank you all school members for contributing to this one.This is a really good, good episode we had here. Um, and i do this for every episode to all the guests that i have, you know, i try to post this in advance and just get some good feedback from the community cause i think it's just another good opportunity, um, to kind of spark the conversation.Um, but having said that, jacob, my friend, do you have any, any other last words of wisdom that you wanted to kind of share here? Um, like i said, i mean, we're more than likely gonna record another episode.This has been way too fun and we got so much more to talk about. But is there, is there anything you wanted to leave? Uh, leave the community, leave the, leave the episode the podcast, the listeners with here? [...1.4s]Yeah um, well, thanks again for having me, man. It was, uh, really fun. I think [...0.4s] we definitely need to do another one, so looking forward to that, um, and i would definitely, i would definitely be on board.But, yeah, i think obviously i'm just gonna plug my community and everything there, just because [...0.8s] i know people are burning out.And hopefully some of the conversations we had early on about, you know, just the acceptance and being able to admit it. Like, i think some people are struggling and they just don't wanna admit it.Um, [...0.4s] but if you are somebody that feels like you're struggling and burning out, and, you know, you're stressed all the time, you feel like you can't sleep, you have no energy, you got the mental fog, emotional exhaustion, all the things. Um, my community is based on helping people just like that.So if you were one of those people, you identify as a high achiever or [...0.6s] somebody just if you're just burning out, i feel free to join the community and reach out to me. I can help you personally if that's something you're interested in. But, um yeah, hopefully see some of y'all in there. And thank you again, sheldon for, for having me.Absolutely, hey, give the full plug in man. What's, what are your links? What are your socials working, working people find you brother? Yeah um, i'm not super [...0.6s] big on instagram or anything like that. I kind of mostly focus my attention on my school community.So, um, yomberdot collective is my community. Um, it's free to join all of my, my entire course, my nine step course is on there. The burnout risky road map, um, all forty five videos, nine steps, i mean the whole nine yards is there and you can get it for free. Um. You also have access to me. We can always schedule a call.We could just kind of talk about what it looks like for you to kind of work through your own burnout story and how to find some, some relief and recovery. So, um, that's kind of the main place to find me, my email and everything is there.So, yeah um, until i kind of get my [...0.5s] other social medias off the ground, that's kind of it for now. Yeah, that's good. And i'll put any listeners out there to listen, they're looking to get in touch with jacob. I will have his information in the show notes.Um, if you're already in my school community, thank you for being a member as well. And you will have access to the full [...0.6s] research citation document, lot of science, science heavy episode here.So we got, we'll have a whole [...0.5s] citation sheet there that i'll be sharing with the community and you will have, um, access also to this video episode.Awesome jacob, hey brother, well again, thank you again for your time. This has been great. Um, look, looking forward to getting this episode out and getting some feedback and, uh, and hearing some input, but, um, it's been a blast, brother, looking forward to seeing you, to having you again in the future. Absolutely man, thank you, yeah, absolutely. [...1.4s][...1.4s]