PIE SIG Podcast
This podcast explores the benefits of using performance related approaches and activities in the classroom and the lives of the people who use them.
PIE SIG Podcast
Episode 6: Rhythm and Embodied Learning feat. Dr. Kim Rockell
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Can teachers who do not consider themselves musical still use music to help students develop a sense of English rhythm?
In this episode, Dr. Kim Rockell, an ethnomusicologist and language educator at Komazawa University in Tokyo, reflects on a life shaped by music, discipline, and teaching. From early listening at home to formal study in cello, guitar, and ethnomusicology, and time spent playing bass in a hard rock band, his path shows how musical understanding develops through practice rather than talent alone.
For educators, Professor Rockell explains how rhythm can be taught through simple, structured activities such as body percussion, without requiring musical training. He describes how learners internalize timing, stress, and flow in English through physical engagement rather than abstract explanation.
For non-educators, the episode offers a thoughtful and personal conversation with a multi-talented musician and teacher. Professor Rockell shares stories of mentorship, reflects on his teaching journey from Taiwan to Japan, and plays guitar during the episode, making it an engaging listen beyond the classroom.
At its core, this episode explores how rhythm, discipline, and embodied practice shape how people learn, communicate, and express themselves.
Below are links to articles and musicians mentioned in thus episode:
Teaching Language Through Music: Reflections of a Professional Musician
By: Kim Rockell
Antonio Losada Spanish Classical guitarist. Influential teacher
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5-xP1XxLHE
John Mills
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzAnV3Q6QMY
Gamelan - Indonesian
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZZTfu4jWcI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVHhCIQO57w
Bruno Nettl
https://archon.library.illinois.edu/archives/?p=creators/creator&id=1575
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https://jaltpiesig.org/
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For tips on how to cite these episodes using APA 7th edition, use the link below:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uLVARUdviigboSQXkJXfgNm0zNkMsal6brBvwpmTKWM/edit?usp=sharing
Do you want to make your lessons more engaging and meaningful? Then join me on the PIE SIG Podcast with Darren as we explore performance in education with passionate teachers who bring it to life in their classrooms. Welcome to the PIE SIG Podcast with Darren. Today we're joined by Professor Kim Roquel, classical guitarist and ethnomusicologist. Part one starts with Dr. Raquel's musical roots and practical classroom tips. Kim, thanks for coming to our Sendai studio today.
SpeakerYeah, well thanks very much, Darren. It's great to be here in Sendai. It's a beautiful day, and I really enjoyed the drive up from Fukushima.
Speaker 1So Kim, take us back to your childhood in New Zealand. When did music start taking center stage in your life?
SpeakerThat's a very long time ago. But uh, you know, I know that my father had a a dear friend called Kevin Watson who actually made an instrumental guitar record. He worked with him. So while I was in my my mother's womb, Kevin Watson would actually visit the house and they would they would play the mandolin and the guitar together. So I'm pretty sure that hearing those those plucked sounds while I was in the womb were were an early influence. And then later my my godfather, or he's a Welsh guy, John Church's name is, he was learning the classical guitar. So when we visited their house, the guitar was always in the corner, and and so I heard him playing some some just simple, beautiful pieces, and that's what really captured my my interest and my my love for classical guitar sound.
Speaker 1Was there a moment in your life where you really connected with music and you really wanted to start playing it?
SpeakerGoodness me. Okay, so you mean so as a from a professional point of view, I mean, I think people influence us a lot. So so when I was a child, we knew a classical guitar teacher, his name was called David Smith, and he had a private studio in the in the in the city. Well, it's a very long s story, but but you know, we became friends, and and so I really admired that lifestyle. I mean, I think as a as a young as a young person, I wanted to have my own studio the way he did. You know, he seemed to have a lot of freedom and f from looking at it from from the eyes of a young person. And so that was the main influence in making me think that I too could could have a classical guitar studio and teach and perform for a living was David Smith, yeah, in Christchurch, New Zealand.
Speaker 1And what type of music were you interested in as a child? Right.
SpeakerWell, you know, my we had an opportunity to to learn classical music, you know, have lessons, and so I mean I had some cello lessons and uh my brother learned the the clarinet. And and my father was always interested in folk music, so he he he played the the mandolin. And we you know we lived outside the city, so we we lived uh we lived on a small farm. So that there wasn't really we didn't have a television either, you know. So so the you know the influence that I had would be from what my my father played and also the kind of records that that he that he played. When I became a teenager, I remember I had a a s a transistor radio and my friends were all getting into listening to the the uh the pop music of the of the time. And I remember I was about 14 years old and I was in my my bedroom and I was listening to the transistor radio. I remember my father burst into the room, was very angry, and he said, What are you listening to that rubbish for? And he kind of you know struck the transistor radio off the off the table. So, you know, I was the same as uh other kids my age and interested in listening to the uh popular music of the time. But also we had the chance to learn some classical music and also I think we had the influence of of uh folk music. You know, um our father was very aware of his his Scottish roots on his great-great grandmother's side, McKenzie clan. And so because of that, I mean that side of the family, he he identified with that, and so he would take us to the the local you know folk music club and we we would hear hear people singing and and playing Irish and Scottish folk music. But but I didn't feel uh at that time I didn't feel that I didn't identify with that. What I identified with much more strongly was his flamenco guitar record that he had, and also he had some uh you know records of uh income Inca music, and so we would put them on and and you know we would d dance around to to the music. So that kind of uh you know I've always had felt a deep attraction to Latin American and Spanish music. It's I really don't know where it comes from, but but I've always felt that. Are you familiar with Twisted Sister? Yeah, of course. Well, I can't say I'm a fan, but uh of course I've I've heard of you know uh in my life I've I've played in a hard rock band and and you know I was you know as as a job, you know, like I think in when I was in Brisbane I was approached, you know, someone said, Can you play the bass in our band? And of course, as a part-time job, so I bought a a bass, you know, I play left-handed, right? So it was a left-handed bass, and I learned the uh the you know these these hard rock uh bass lines and did some gigs. But it was very interesting because I thought that when you play very, very loud, almost aggressive music, very different from from what I usually play, that I would feel a heightened energy. I mean, there were people actually coming up to the speakers and putting their ears against the speakers and and you know thrashing around. But I found that it was the opposite, that the the my actual in internal energy started to go lower uh uh while I was playing this very uh loud aggressive music. So, but the Twisted Sister, I'm sorry, uh I know the name, but I'm not really familiar with the the songs.
Speaker 1Well the reason I bring it up is because in the video his his father burst into his room and said, What are you listening to?
SpeakerYeah, yeah. Well at the time I was I was uh I felt upset, but but looking back, I understand where he was coming from, certainly. So what was your first degree? Oh well, actually I studied music, you know. I mean I didn't I didn't s as I mentioned earlier, I wanted to have a classical guitar studio, you know. So so that's that was really my goal. Even when we could get a driver's license very young at that time, and you know, I think 15 years old or so when I was 14, my my friend Mark Little, he got his driver's license because we're you know in the countryside, and uh so I made some little posters and we drove around and put up these posters for classical guitar guitar lessons. So I mean the reason I did music was because it was expected that we would go to university at that time. I think you know, most so yeah, it was expected that we go to university, and so I mean I studied what I wanted to do, but but had I not gone to university, I would have just continued on with that with that path that I wanted to have have uh this uh private so you needed some kind of qualification. And as I saw it, uh well people encouraged me, actually, though those people around me. We had a famous guitarist from Barcelona, uh Antonio La Sada, his his name. He was um my one of the very influential teachers in in my life, Antonio La Sada. And and also we had an English guitarist uh in New Zealand too called John Mills, and he he uh was also teaching at a tertiary institution. So yeah, that's why I studied music. Of course, we had you know art history courses and you know, like any degree, some breadth in the curriculum.
Speaker 1And you have a master's degree in ethnomusicology. Can you tell the listeners what that is and what faculty it falls under? Sure.
SpeakerWell well, I mean ethnomusicology is a relatively recent field, and it it sort of straddles musicology and anthropology. A lot of people get too caught up in in the theory and in the use of the name, but but the reason they started using ethnomusicology rather than comparative musicology was um uh at the to have disciplinary independence at the time. So I mean I know there's ethnobotany and there are other other fields of research where you're trying to understand the the objective research from the point of view of the of the um the practitioners themselves or the or the the the people themselves. So trying to see the the the view and understanding of music from the point of view of of the people who who practice it. And you know, I think most people identify uh ethnomusicology with perhaps people who do gamelan, you know, Indonesian gamelan and with you know with non-Western musics usually. But it's come to the point where ethnomusicology can be the study of music in culture for for any any musical phenomenon and anywhere in in the world.
Speaker 1So Kim, how important is it for an ethnomusicologist to play an instrument and to join with the locals in playing their local music?
SpeakerWell, I don't think it's it's necessary, but certainly it it's a kind of a a favored approach. And for me, I mean that's one of the things that really attracted me to ethnomusicology. One of the leaders in the field, Bruno Nettle, who passed away a couple of years ago, he predicted a a kind of a return to the to the armchair scholar because of you know the the way there are so many dangers in in the world and and it's it's becoming difficult to to travel to many places. So people tending to work with recordings again as they once did many years ago. But my favorite research approach is participant observation, and I definitely love the opportunity to to to uh join with others and to to learn and actually play them the music with the the musicians themselves.
Speaker 1And how does Japan factor into your educational background and your interests?
SpeakerWell I had was serendipitous, I think, that when I was in Aizu Wakamatsu, which is in in Fukushima, in Aizu, in Fukushima, this kind of has a reputation as a samurai town and a very you know historical place related to the the Bolshin war. I mean they have a strong no tradition, so when I was there, I was introduced to uh a no teacher and and had an opportunity to to start learning the chant and the the the I'll call it dance, I guess, of of no. And I think uh I probably wouldn't have had that opportunity had I been in you know a more highly populated area of of Japan. I think it was a very special opportunity that uh I was able to start studying Noh.
Speaker 1So when did you first come to Japan?
SpeakerI did come in my late thirties. Um I mean uh at that time I had I had been in Taiwan, I'd gone to Taiwan, and when I returned from Taiwan, I actually I was very lucky in Taiwan because I was able to do two full-time jobs at once and and uh one was playing in a in a in a band in a nightclub, you know, six nights a week, and the other one was was teaching because I'd done a TESOL certificate. And and so uh I'd managed to to save uh enough to meet my needs or my goals. And I went back to Australia, I was in Australia at the time, and unfortunately the money that I'd saved went missing. And and I mean I don't know how that happened, but but you know, the police fingerprinted the the briefcase, they they couldn't they couldn't identify. And and so all that effort and all that that saving was was uh was was ruined, and I was forced to to sort of start from scratch again. And during that time, I you know I didn't have a computer, but I was I was you know starting out. I thought the uh of the idea of setting up a kind of a or having a website set up whereby people would would invite me rather than than me kind of you know m applying to others. And and so I went to the local computer center and asked them to set up this this website. At the time I didn't really know about privacy issues, so you know I got my certificates and photos and everything on the website so that they would be easily accessible. And um, sure enough, you know, I think I was performing regularly in a an Italian restaurant at that at that time, and uh one day I was just driving home and I and I got a call and it was from Japan. It was from a a woman called Anna Dutton, American, and she's you know, she said, Kim, how would you like to come and teach in Japan? And so that's that's how it started. That's how I came to Japan. I was invited.
Speaker 1Okay, how old were you at that time and how did you feel when you first arrived?
SpeakerYeah, well that that's you know, I like I can't remember exactly how old I was. Um I didn't have a specific inter interest in Japan. I did have a specific interest in the Asia Pacific region because you know I'm I'm from New Zealand and I'd uh been you know studying Chinese and and Tagalog, you know, one of the main Philippine languages. And so I mean Japan, I knew it was important, but it was a kind of a missing piece in my understanding and experience in the region. And so I it it it was great as I had the opportunity to kind of fill in this this missing piece. And and I didn't have any expectations, but I when I arrived, I just loved it. You know, I really did. It was a fantastic experience. So, you know, from the very beginning, I would say that you know I loved uh being in Japan.
Speaker 1So how did you make your way through Japanese society after arriving here?
SpeakerFrom the very beginning, when I came to Japan, I set out you know strategically to to the w the way I would interact with the with the society. So I read uh you know, culture capsules and uh you know culture guides. You know, for for example, one uh thing is the idea that uh people know others through being introduced to someone. So uh instead of expecting to make uh friends, I set out first of all to make one acquaintance, and from that I would make other acquaintances. And usually I would do that through going to an Izakaya and just just you know, well, it would take time, you know, maybe three or four weeks regularly going to the same Izakaya, but eventually I would have formed a connection, and through that person, uh inevitably I would be you know introduced or invited to uh to a Matsuri or festival or or so you know things like things like that, the the understanding the the way things things uh worked um was was very helpful, and I didn't have um you know uh unrealistic expectations.
Speaker 1I see. So what was your first full-time teaching gig in Japan?
SpeakerOh, okay, the first full-time, full-time. So so I mean it seemed what I was doing before that was full-time to me. I mean, I taught a lot in in Saitama in uh Shiborokyo Daigaku, but you know, when I go to set my CV up in Japanese, it's classified as as a part-time job, even though I was there, you know uh well all day every day. So but uh officially my first actually officially full-time job was in Hokkaido in the Heights Center English School, and that is in Oasa in Ebetsu in Hokkaido. That was a fantastic experience. Yeah, but but you know, teaching teaching language was was something that kind of uh was serendipitous in in a way, but but you know, I moved from teaching, you know, instrumental music lessons and and teaching m you know music basically, to teaching language from you know the mainly the influence of my brother, David. I mean, he's a really domain linguist in our family and he he would study languages you know really hard as a kid, you know. He would sleep with a dictionary and uh wake up in the morning and you could hear him repeating his his sentence patterns and his his his keywords and throwing a ball against the wall every time he'd repeated the wall, the word five times, and you know he would sleep with sleep with you know r endless tapes. So it's kind of he tried those kind of sleep learning techniques. And when I visited him in China, in it was Nanjing, in China, during that time uh I was invited by you know one of his f fellow students to to go and f you know fill in in a in an English class, you know, which I had no I had no idea what would be like. I didn't have any experience or I didn't see how I could possibly be teach English because I just hadn't had no idea what I would do. But you know, they said, no, it'll be fine, it'll be fine, and and so and uh so they it gave me the address and I went to to a a kind I think it was a might have been a senior high school, and there I was in front of the this large group of Chinese students. And that was my my first real uh experience of of a of a language teaching class and also the kind of life of uh of uh living in a in another cultural environment and teaching. And I mean it really made a huge impression on me, and you know that's what led up later. I ended up doing the TESOL certificate before I before I took up a teaching position in Taiwan.
Speaker 1So can you tell us about your current position and how you got there from Taiwan?
SpeakerWow, I mean my I my job now is is a full-time professor in a university in Tokyo, and uh you know to achieve that of course I had uh to complete my my uh postgraduate qualifications, and you know that was was not by no means easy to complete a doctorate, but I did that, and also to have appropriate publications as well. You know, even though I studied ethnomusicology, I did make an effort to to do several language teaching related publications. You know, I started working on those in the last year of my of my degree. So there's the publications, there's the there's the qualifications, there's the experience, and also even with all of that, I mean it was so hard to break into a first real university teaching gig. I mean, I almost gave up. I mean, I was well, I went back to Hokkaido and you know, every single day after I finished my my work, you know, in the evening at nine o'clock, I go back to the apartment and I would start preparing preparing the CV for uh and then I would go to the you know convenience store because they have printers in convenience stores. You know, in Japan it was I'd forgotten that you you can't do private work in a in a w in a company, you know, your work environment. You you can't print out your CV in in when you're working somewhere. So this had to be separate. So late at night I get home, prepare the the s the CVs, then go to the 7-Eleven and print them out. And then the next morning on the way to work, I would walk past the post office and uh send all the documents. And this was day after day after day. And uh, you know, I start kept a a diary too to to kind of you know uh follow the psychologically to keep myself motivated to keep looking because you know it seemed like I was never going to be able to get a a job in in a university. And I after about a year and uh almost a year and three months or I started thinking, you know, I've made a mistake, I'm not going to be able to uh to move into to uh get a job in a university. But but uh I got a call and you know I think that very, very grateful to that person, John Bryan, his n his name is, he's now retired. But um his father was from New Zealand, his mother was Canadian, I think. So I think somehow and he also he was he loved music too. So I think you know he he he gave me my first break, as it were, and I'm very grateful to him. So when did you first become a member of Jolt? Ah, right. Well, well, I mean, I knew about Jolt, but you know, I came to participate in in Jolt because of my colleague, my colleague John Blake, you know, he he's a corpus linguist, and he had an office next to me. And so one day I got a knock on the door and he said, you know, could we we'd have coffee together you know every other day. He said, Kim, you know, look, I've seen this advertisement for uh for the Pi SIG. Well it wasn't Pi in those days, what what was it? But the the speech drama and debate SIG, yeah. And uh he said, Look, you this this would suit you. This this would be this is just your sort of thing. And I and I said, Oh, thanks very much. And so I yeah, I uh sent an abstract. and attended the conference and that's where I met David Kluge and uh the other members and I think it was in Shonan Shonan the you know the surfing town that was a great experience it was really good and so it was through through that uh that I that I came to to join Jalt yeah man and m before you joined the PISIG and Jalt were you using your musical background to help your students learn English? Yeah I mean that's a good question. I think in a way but but not not explicitly in in the core classes because you know I don't think it would have been approved of uh to do it to you know to too much of an extent. I taught the curriculum or that that was was you know suggested or prescribed and I tried to just give a professional professional instruction. But I did have elective courses that was the thing. So we we had two elective courses and and uh one of them I did computer assisted ethnomusicology so basically teaching ethnomusicology uh in English but using digital resources rather than uh live music and the other course I made was a performance in English which I still teach that course and so in that case I was able to incorporate all sorts of different kinds of uh musical and performance related activities and so yeah it was it through the elective courses so it's only recently that I've started using music more explicitly in in you know core speaking and listening language courses.
Speaker 1Aaron Ross Powell in your article Teaching Language Through Music you say music makes language more engaging. Can you share a classroom example where this happened?
SpeakerIf the students are given a free will or you know choice to to select uh any song in English then they're going to be able to to find something that that they are already engaged with emotionally or that they have some you know pre pre existing relationship with. So for for one of my activities which is the integrated ensemble activity students are creating you know body percussion and conducting gestures and introducing their performances but the basic text itself is from a song in English and it can be from a a Japanese band or it can be a a well known song from the English speaking world. But you know the fact that the students have free will and that they can they can choose the material definitely engages them.
Speaker 1Can you speak about the integrated ensemble activity that you like to do?
SpeakerThe integrated ensemble activity has a singer, a body percussionist a conductor and somebody who an announcer someone who introduces the song and we I set up the activity first teaching a basic conducting gesture. So it could be for example a three beat or a two or four beats that's very important because well known songs are usually in a triple meter or in a you know four beat. So for example happy birthday happy birthday to you that of course is in three beats and the first uh the strongest beat is on the word birthday happy birthday so when the student conducts the gesture they have to bring their hand down on the strong beat which is the word birthday. Happy birthday yeah whereas a twinkle twinkle little star is uh four beats twinkle twinkle little star and the the hand comes down on the twinkle the the first beat so you know the the students need to be able to identify whether the song is in three beats or four beats and most pop songs are in four beats but uh if they're going to sing a a well-known children's song or song like Happy Birthday some of them might be in in three beats. So they learn this conducting gesture and I do this with the alphabet so that the students are singing a A B C D E F right while I conduct them and and uh it's quite fun because if the the conducting speed increases then the students have to increase their the the speed of their reciting the alphabet and also if the gestures are large then they have to s have it usually use a loud voice. If the gestures are small they use a soft voice. And I do that teacher to class we use the days of the week or or the months of the year just repeating with conducting gesture and after that break into pairs so that a student A is conducting and student B is either doing an alphabet or numbers or days of the week or whatever is is a good way to to connect using language with a conducting conducting gesture. The percussion part is body percussion and I pre-teach the simple standard sounds like hand clap, finger snap, stamp foot, slap thigh and so I actually pre-teach that vocabulary and then we enjoy making different kinds of patterns in in groups. But before that I mean after I've pre-taught the vocabulary I have the students commanding me to perform this the sounds using the target language in this in this case you know as I said you know slap thigh hand clap etc and then the students make make patterns in their groups they perform them for the class and after having done so they have to describe in English in language what the sounds were in their percussion pattern. So you know they might go and then they'll have to say well that was uh snap fingers two times and clap hands three times snap fingers two times so they they're using language to describe the pattern. So we've we've got them conducting we've got them doing body percussion and then for the song I get them to choose a song in English using the internet so it can be it can be a Japanese band like one okay rock if the song is in English any song in English and just two verses. They don't have to do the whole song any song in English. So you know actually there's usually a little bit of time in choosing the song but but but I kind of monitor and and I push the groups that are taking too long to decide on their song so that we can move on with the activity. And after they've chosen the song all then they'll write the the lyrics of two verses it's interesting you know the the concept of what a verse is you know once once they they get clear on on you know how much language content is a verse in English then they'll choose two verses and after that they have to identify whether the song is in three or four beats and choose which conducting gesture to use and create a percussion pattern to fit with it and to make a small introduction. So for example you know welcome to our performance class on Wednesday morning we are going to perform we will rock you. On percussion takes it on vocals we have sakaisan. After the introduction the students then you know perform their integrated ensemble but you know before they perform obviously we I work with each individual group and try to make sure that they're coordinating the conducting gesture with the with the percussion pattern and with the with the words they have plenty of time to practice it. And then at the end of the class each group performs before before the class you know I've been doing that activity for some years and you know they always enjoy it. It takes time to set it up definitely because you've got to pre-teach the conducting gestures pre-teach the the percussion body percussion patterns also you know get students into groups etc but I really have found it's a successful activity and uh students enjoy it a lot.
Speaker 1So for teachers out there who really don't know anything about music, is there anything within that activity itself that they could pull out and use?
SpeakerOkay so so the thing is that m the students are using multimedia to access their song right so the the teacher doesn't need to use an instrument or or to know the key or have any specialist musical knowledge. It's just a question of selecting a song from from the internet. So that's not a that's not a problem. Perhaps the teacher if they're more linguistically oriented might be able to say well look this song is unsuitable if if for example the the lyrics are just far too complex or have a lot of maybe difficult slang that might not be appropriate. So but but uh musically this there's no problem with that. The the only musical problem is as I mentioned before knowing whether something's in two beats or three beats but I but I well the students themselves that I have taught the non-musicians can usually identify whether something is in three beats or or four beats and so I that would be the biggest the biggest hurdle. Also if the teacher were to have to create a percussion pattern for the students they might need some musicality. But if they teach the individual sounds for example finger snap hand clap foot stomp and give the the students the freedom to to use those in different combinations I think it's fine. I mean the most simple percussion pattern would just be to clap the hands repeatedly and indeed I mean I do have some groups who who do that they they they simply clap along with every beat. So so the even that doesn't require strong musical ability on the part of the teacher. I mean I designed this activity so it was approachable. The whole idea is that there are things that don't require musical training or musical instruments. They're using the internet to access the song they are using a body percussion instead of a you know a drum there's no need for a drum there's no need for for any instrument it's just an a cappella voice with a body percussion sound and the the idea of the conducting gesture is also you know it's something accessible and fun. It's just a repeated action down out up down out up teachers with no musical inclination simply encouraged people to create a sound on every beat of of of the song without any any complexity just rip repeated sounds I mean in in music psychology we we we studied you know child child children's you know musical responses and often parents will see the child with a plastic cup and they're sitting in their their high chair and they're banging the cup on the on the the high chair and the parents say well this look he's got he's playing along to the to the song listen but according to the psychologist this the this is just a repeated motor action and without us without a rhythmic sense. So if a child in the in the chair can do this repeated motor action I hope that the wonderful language teachers can also do that.
Speaker 1Okay so that's the end of part one we're gonna come back Kim very soon after a break and record part two and for our listeners part two will be released a bit later in the year so you want to make sure you come back for that and we'd like to end part one with a very short performance by Kim and then Kim will discuss a little bit about it.
SpeakerSo Kim take it away that was one of my compositions of instrumental called jacaranda or jacaranda. You know in in Japan the cherry blossoms are so beautiful but in Australia the jacaranda flowers appear in at that time I was living in in Brisbane in Queensland and I was you know very inspired by those jacaranda blossoms and wrote that piece.
Speaker 1Thank you Kim that was that was very beautiful so to our listeners please remember to tune in to part two and Kim will talk about the research behind using music as a mode of education. We're going to talk about rhythm, melody, what it was like to do his PhD and how it changed his outlook on language teaching we're gonna talk about the earthquake that hit New Zealand and how that affected his studies we're going to look at soundscapes and techniques that work in the classroom along with no chance so you're gonna hear him actually chant some no so please tune in thank you for listening until next time stay focused and keep performing