Episode 10: CALL X PIE feat. JALTCALL SIG President Brian Gallagher

Are CALL and PIE Compatible?

When should we embrace computer technology… and when does it make more sense to use pen and paper?

Can students use AI without losing their creativity and humanity?

In Part 1 of this powerful two-part series, JALTCALL SIG President Brian Gallagher (Meijo University) takes us on a deeply personal journey — from his childhood in Greenock, Scotland, through his early drama and elocution training, to his time at IBM, and finally to his life as an educator in Japan.

Brian shares honest reflections on pushing students beyond their comfort zone (and then gently bringing them back), how our use of technology shapes learning outcomes, and his simple but effective “record, look, and delete” method for self-training.

Authentic. Thought-provoking. Human-centred.

This is a must-listen for any language teacher navigating the balance between performance, technology, and what it really means to stay human in the AI age.

🔗 Link to Part 2 where Brian interviews me on the JALTCALL Podcast drops May 2, 2026,  so don’t miss it!

JALTCALL (Computer Assisted Language Learning) Podcasts on Soundcloud!

https://soundcloud.com/jalt-call

SHOW NOTES:

Brian Gallagher, M.A.ODE(Open), PGCODE(Open), ProGCE, B.Sc.(Hons)

Assistant Professor *Specially Appointed, Faculty of Foreign Studies, Meijo University, Nagoya, Japan

JALTCALL President     https://jaltcall.org/Brian's Homepage   https://anthonybriangallagher.weebly.com/

Brian's research    https://researchmap.jp/briang

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Anthony-Gallagher-4

Okinawa JALT 2025 Publications & Publicity Officer    https://okijalt.org/

JALT PIE SIG Assistant Program Chair 2025     https://jaltpiesig.org/

JAMSTEC    https://www.jamstec.go.jp/e/

Kamishibai    https://www.kamishibai-ikaja.com/en/

🔗 Link to Part 2 on the JALT CALL Podcast drops soon, so don’t miss it!

Thanks for listening! If you enjoyed this episode, please like and leave a review. To learn more about the Performance in Education SIG, check out our website. 

https://jaltpiesig.org/

Have questions or want to get involved? Reach out to us at:

pie.sig.podcast@gmail.com.

To access other high-quality JALT podcasts, go to JALT CALL (Computer Assisted Language Learning) Podcasts on Soundcloud!

https://soundcloud.com/jalt-call

For tips on how to cite these episodes using APA 7th edition, use the link below:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uLVARUdviigboSQXkJXfgNm0zNkMsal6brBvwpmTKWM/edit?usp=sharing

Intro & Outro song: Unlock Me (Royalty free)

Music by Kontraa Studio | UKA Music Publishing LLC

Transcript

Darren 0:00

Do you want to make your lessons more engaging and meaningful? Then join me on PEI SIG Podcast with Darren as we explore performance in education with passionate teachers who bring it to life in their classrooms. Can computer assistant learning and performance activities in the classroom enhance each other? Or are they incompatible approaches? Today I'm talking with Brian Gallagher from Meijo University in Nagoya, Japan. He's the president of the CALL SIG and Assistant Program Chair for PIE. We discussed how he combines performance and technology to move students from passive learning to actually using language. We also look at his record, look, and delete approach to student self-training and how to preserve creativity when using AI in the classroom. Brian, welcome to the podcast.

Brian 1:01

Hi, Darren, it's great to be here. Thanks.

Darren 1:03

I'd like to start off talking a bit about your early life. So where were you born?

Brian 1:07

I was born in Ibrox in Glasgow. Glasgow is the biggest city in Scotland. But our family live out in a small town called Greenock, which is on the River Clyde. It's a shipbuilding town. Traditionally, it was a shipbuilding town when we were when we were very wee. But then it became an electronics town. So our town was really famous for IBM, IBM Personal Systems Group, which after university I worked for a couple of years, which was really good. But yeah, Scotland, because of the old shipbuilding, the infrastructure is there for transport. It's a beautiful beautiful town. It's a lovely place. You know, it's on the river. Nothing but water and hills. But now there's not much there's not much industry. IBM died, basically. Shipbuilding industry died. And so now it's it's a kind of a a sleepy town that people travel up to Glasgow to do their work. Now there's there's not really kind of like the work to be had. And if there's no work, there's no money. If there's no money, there's there's nothing else. So there's there's probably a number of people have to move away. And of course, I moved away when I was 24, I think. But I mean definitely working for IBM was probably the best company that I have ever worked for. The the things that I learned about business and how the business world actually works as opposed to quite a lot of academics. You like have just some fanciful idea, but not the reality.

Darren 2:49

What did you study at university?

Brian 2:50

So originally I did I did three years of ophthalmic optics or optometry. I didn't really enjoy it. And so I was trying to transfer almost immediately, but you know, I ended up doing three years of that. And then I graduated, I changed university. I went to a better university, University of Glasgow, and I did a degree in physiology, which was physiology and sports science, physiology and sports science. So that that was uh an honors degree, a four four-year degree.

Darren 3:23

How did you end up in teaching English then? Like, what's the connection there?

Brian 3:26

Uh so finishing university, I worked a couple of different places. Like I worked at Sky Sports for a bit in the promotions department. I was at Ibrock Stadium, which was good. That was kind of call center work, so nobody wants to be in that kind of job for too long. And then I got the job at IBM, which was good, but that was through like a temping agency. And yeah, IBM was good, but it just that the contract wasn't coming. And it was always like, yeah, maybe next month, maybe next month, maybe next month, maybe next month. And and so yeah, just so saw the the advert for working in Japan, and I thought, right, this could be my next this could be my next step, you know.

Darren 4:07

So did you have any interest in Japan?

Brian 4:10

I was very interested in in in coming to see the volcanoes in Japan. And part of the physiology degree, I did a project on JAMSTEC, which is the Japan Marine Science Technology Division. So they, they go down to the depths of the ocean and pick up like kind of like microbes and stuff like that. You know, you know, so most most of the the new animals, the new fish that are found, it's usually a Japanese fisherman finds it and brings it up to the surface. So I was interested in that. You like and I kind of thought, yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot going on in Japan.

Darren 4:51

So I want to ask you about drama. Yeah. When when did drama become part of your life?

Brian 4:57

So when I was in primary school, I went to the Carol Fry School of Elocution and Drama on a Saturday, which I hated because all my friends went out and played football. But I had to go and learn you know like compositions and prose, and we would do performances every year. There was a show at the Greenock Arts Guild, which is now which is now the building's been knocked down, but it was yeah, it was it was a lovely theatre, and they had, they had some as most theatres do, there's some studios off to the side, so like some were used, one was used for ballet, there was a ballet school in the kind of like the upper atrium, and then in the other rooms. Yeah, we used for for doing for doing drama, yeah, drama and speech. So it was probably mostly for elocution. My mum was... people in my town have a quite kind of like nasally grating voice, and uh you like their language is I don't know, I don't know how to describe their language, but uh I was taught how to speak properly was the phrase that was used, how to speak properly.

Darren 6:10

What what does properly mean in that context?

Brian 6:12

Uh just you know, to to doing proper like enunciation and prose and speech and tempo and volume and you know, like projection, things like that. But also it helps it helps with language as well, because you're doing different poems, you know, you have to recite a poem, you like to because you would have like tests, graded tests, you know, like so like for this season you're doing this poem, and so you'd have to you'd have to memorize it and you'd have to get the timing right, and there would be some theatrics involved with your quite quite a lot of facial expressions, which were probably seemed quite odd to a lot of other people. And and other other times the drama was you know just basic theatre stuff, you know, like you like as young kids do, you start like, okay, now you're a tree, you're a tree blowing in the wind, you know, like and like all this kind of stuff. So to just get you used to being like a like a back, a background kind of like player kind of thing. But because it was in the theatre, you know, like rehearsals and stuff, and a lot of time like actually at the theatre because it was based in the arts guild, and so you could learn, you know, like how how the curtains worked, you know, like and under the stage and makeup rooms and you know, like all the kind of like the running and chaos you like that goes on behind the stage performance, you know.

Darren 7:40

So you're you were literally seeing behind the curtain.

Brian 7:43

Yeah, yeah. So I, I think like even like now when when I organise conferences and stuff like that, people see me scurrying about doing lots of different things, you know, like and thinking, what's he doing now? What's he doing now? He can't sit still. He's like, because there's always something to be done, feel like something's about to be taken from here to there, and you know, like something put in place, and you know, like something getting ready and stuff like that. But probably stage time, there's a lot of competition when you're we, but you know, like everybody gets their spot in the limelight, which is something that as a young person it's it's quite a thing to get over or to get through, you know, like that. The first time you stand on a very large stage and a very, very powerful spotlight shines on your face, you know, like you can't see anything. I was always afraid that I was gonna not remember my lines, you know. And of course, your drama teacher are always, you know, write again, do it again, do it again, you know. You're thinking like, ahh, you're always kind of like almost like on the jump every time. You know, it's like, no, do it again from the top, start again, from the beginning, from the beginning, from the beginning. You know, it's I think that's maybe not changed in theater in a long time.

Darren 9:09

No, that's that's all very interesting because right now you're the you know, the first-term president of the CALL SIG

Brian 9:15

That's right. Right.

Darren 9:16

Congratulations.

Brian 9:17

Thank you.

Darren 9:18

So I was I was wondering about how is it that you're involved in our SIG, the PIE SIG, and the CALL SIG, but now it's kind of clear to me, you know, because you were involved in kind of computers for a long time, plus you had this elocution training and theater background. Yeah, so it's this kind of I think unusual merger. I don't think you find a lot of people who are going who are merging those two worlds. Am I wrong in that?

Brian 9:41

Uh no, no. I think like there's a lot a lot of people using CALL are are doing it just because they enjoy it, but I don't I don't know how many you like use it for really combining with other things. Performance-wise, so of course my mum and dad were both teachers. I had aunties who were teachers, I've got a sister-in-law who's a teacher, all my mum's friends were teachers, you know, like so it it it's it always seemed very respectable as a job to have. So my two two out of my four older brothers, two of them are doctors, one's a lawyer, and one works for a kind of as an economist, a kind of finance guy. And so I was always kind of thinking like, well, I need to I need to do something, you know, like that. I guess I'm gonna respect myself and my parents give me some kind of respect for what I'm doing.

Darren 10:48

So getting back to the drama, having that experience you talked about it being kind of I think rewarding but stressful, would that be a nice summation?

Brian 10:57

Yeah, challenging. Challenging is probably in a better new life. I don't think it's I don't really think kids have stress, you know, like it's maybe a bit, but yeah, it's like my fourth brother Peter, he was in the theatre too, and he was he was quite good at being a performer. And I remember him being on stage. The the three older brothers didn't didn't go to it. They they were just focused on their their academics, and and I guess well, two of my brothers were in in the football team, you know, like captains of the football team. Soccer, I meaning not American football. So yeah, I think it's, it's a challenge, it's a separate challenge, like it's a private challenge. Like when you go to school, in my school, so everybody everybody talks like that and don't speak like this, and they're all really toughy toughies, and then I would speak what a lot of people said, like, oh you're a posh boy, and say like, well, I was well, I lived in the west end of the town, you know, like our house was quite a nice house. The mum and dad were you know like both well-spoken teachers, because of course teachers are supposed to be well spoken because they are supposed to teach people how to speak properly, you know, like and to know about grammar and vocabulary and you know, like and putting on a performance, you know. So we did a lot of training, you know, like with wine quarks, you know, like the cork in the mouth, and you do your A I O U Te Ti To Tu Mi Me Ma Mo Mu , which I actually I teach a lesson for my students. We don't use wine quarks because you can't mind you can't buy wine corks anymore, but just using, you know, like the the first knuckle of your thumb and you put the the thumb into your mouth, just to the first knuckle, and and you you gently touch the teeth with the first knuckle, and then as your mouth moves, you get that proprioception that goes up your arm. So it lets you know like when the lips are touching, if they're top or bottom, when they're coming together, you know, like how the breath works, you know, like what is the like is is the tongue position up, down, touching the thumb, you know, like whatever. So for me, that was interesting, and I guess you know, doing a physiology degree, then later learning about proprioception, you like and how your body gets signals to your brain, you like from the body, you know, like so all that was very interesting. You like I did it as a as part of the forum uh JALT 2025, just last year. And so yeah, I I did the same thing that I do in classes too. I mean, I think a lot of students are kind of horrified, put my own thumb in my own mouth. And I say to them, Well, I'm not gonna put my thumb in your mouth, that would be disgusting, right?

Darren 13:51

Take a look at your baby pictures. You had it in there all day.

Brian 13:55

So don't don't don't put your thumb in somebody else's mouth, you know. Like it's

Darren 13:59

Just wash your thumb before you go to Brian's class.

Brian 14:01

That's yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, you know, when people say, like, I don't want to do that, you say, like, why are you like, is it dirty? Is your own hand dirty? Yeah. So yeah, but again, that's another another you know, like wee thing that we did at drama school, or for elocution, drama elocution, that I can then pass on to other people, which I never thought that I would, which which is a pretty kind of neat thing to do. But just it helps people a lot, especially Japanese people don't move their their mouth very much when they're speaking in Japanese language. Japanese language doesn't really demand it. But I I always try to get my students to to go beyond what is comfortable so that they know uh that they can tone it back down to a comfortable level, you know. So I I do lots of different exercises and lots of different classes about not doing enough, doing too much, and then coming back, you know, like I I do it in English converse. In my English communication class, we have like a very small dialogue, uh like most textbooks. And so sometimes you would just like read the dialogue, and then students go, like, right, okay, finished. But I I say, no, though, no, no, no. Do the first one, the first one's got to be really, really slow, and then the second time you do it really, really fast, and then the third time you do it, but you put your hands on top of the text and you try and speak in your kind of normal voice. And so that's

Darren 15:41

Why, why the hands on the text?

Brian 15:42

Uh hands-on because well the they well, they read it through once, so they've experienced it once slowly. The second time they've experienced it fast, so they've they've read it twice now, they've spoken the words twice, and so the third time you're like they should be able to remember something that they've done twice already. And then if they it so the reason is it's hands, not a closed book, it's hands, because hands you can easily you can say to them you can just lift your hands quickly and check, you're like so, but but not fully open. You're like so. Again, there's some kind of like challenge for the students there. And and sometimes we do like a lot of students don't know the difference between stress and volume. Right, yeah. They always use volume for stress, right? Yeah, uh, and so I have a backburner project, which is a volume project. I teach a third-year public speaking and debate course. It's public speaking the first semester and then debate in the second. So in a public speaking, we focus on volume. And so asking the students, and I'm always trying to elicit, you know, like what the volume is. So, okay, so regular voice, teacher voice, theater voice, you know, like shouting, you know, like screaming up the top level. Let's go back down. So regular voice, you've got your your quiet voice, your low voice, then you've got your whisper, and then what's quieter than a whisper? You think that can't there can't be anything quieter than a whisper, can there?

Darren 17:13

Just moving your lips, I guess.

Brian 17:14

Yeah, so it's mouthing. Right? So it's mouthing. You're like when and of course this won't work on a podcast or a radio. Yeah. So when when you say to like someday, if you whisper, like, call me, call me, call me tomorrow. Say, like, right, okay. So what do you do? You then have to do a gesture and you mouth it, right? And sometimes that's you're like the only way we get to communicate with people, you know, like if you've been shush, you know, like, or something like that. And then below that, well, below mouthing, you're like, you're thinking, right, okay, I can't even use my mouth. So then it's just purely gestures that you can do. Like if you're in the library, you know, like and you're waving to somebody, you're like and trying to gesture what you're doing. So I I do that, you know, like depending on how proficient the students are with knowing the difference and controlling their volume. So it's good ex it's good exercise to do. You know, like if you because you you only really need to have like one or two sentences and you get to do it in the different volumes, and then people you like get to see if they can or cannot do. And again, you like you can have them go louder and louder and quieter and quieter, you like just so that you can then say to them, okay, so now you're using your quiet voice, right? Okay, or whispers only, right? So I I only allow whispers while somebody is giving a presentation, right? So there should be no low speaking. Is that no, low speaking is not allowed. Whispers only. Right? I mean, in Japanese you do have the what they call it the hiso hiso, but even the hiso-hiso, like the the sound in itself is still quite loud. So I think like a whisper should be even lower than that.

Darren 19:10

Well, I'm gonna steal your idea because uh when I recently when I'm doing presentations, I'm saying we're gonna focus on the foundations and we're not gonna move on until we got those. So I want to see your face, I want to make sure you have good posture and I want to be able to hear you. And if we can't get those three things effective, then we're not gonna move on to gestures. And if you can tell them that there are all these levels of volume like you do, then that then I can say to them when they give me their, you know, their video of their own presentation, which level are you using? Right. And what score is that?

Brian 19:42

Plus two or minus two or plus one or minus one. And I think that so we also the the reason that I was doing this project was it was during COVID time and so I realized that when you when you also include a mask, so of course masks don't masks mask your face, so the facial expressions are gone. So you you miss that signaling. And plus the fact that normally when you're wearing a mask, like the sound is the sound is kind of muscled. And so when students were do I had students like doing recordings wearing a mask. Is that why what are you wearing a mask at home for? You know, like you don't need a you know, but people were just so you know, wearing the mask all the time. And so, like saying to students, you know, like if you've got hay fever, if you get a cough, if you got something, so obviously your voice is affected negatively, so you have to be more positive with your with your volume in order to reach you know like the acceptable level. And I had different exams that I was doing with students where there was there was like a score for pronunciation, there was a score for grammar and vocabulary, there was a score for such and such. But I thought there were some students who I literally couldn't even hear what they were saying. And I was thinking like that that's just not acceptable. It's not acceptable to be so quiet that you can't be heard. Like, how can I score you if I can't hear you?

Darren 21:18

That's exactly what I said to my students. I said, Look, you know, what am I scoring you on? And they would tell me, I'm like, how can I score it if I can't hear you?

Brian 21:24

Right.

Darren 21:26

And I think they I think some of them just don't want to be heard.

Brian 21:29

Well, I mean, there's techniques to that too. Like I I've I've got a friend who is a very, very good Japanese speaker. He works in an industry where he's like translating documents and stuff like that. And I said to him, What do you do when you don't know the word? Right? Or you you know, you're you're and he said, I just mumble it. Just mumble it. It's fine. And I was like, What? And he said, like, yeah, I says I'm in meetings all the time, and you're like, I and I I've got a About 70% of it right, and then the other 30% are just gonna mumble a wee bit in unintelligibly. But people's brains, you know, like fill in that gap. And I and I thought like, sure, like either either that's insanity or that is genius. And since since he told me that, I have used it incredibly effectively. And I still to this day use it, especially like when I go to like the the Jimu Kyoku Madoguchi, you know, like the the counter with the staff, you know, like and I'm thinking like I can't remember that verb, you know, like or what's that word, and I and I basically kind of like just barrel through, you know, like and just get and and they kind of thinking like I maybe made a mistake or whatever, but I you know, they know

Darren 22:49

Just give them enough context that they can sort it out.

Brian 22:52

Right, yeah, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you could have that, you would have that at home as well, you like with your with your your your friends who who speak you like with some like kind of like guttural tone, you know, like or they're using the wrong word, and you're thinking like, I don't need to correct them, you like, because I can I can work out what they were trying to say. You know. So thinking, you know, it's it's a technique that lots of people use, but yeah, quite quite effective.

Darren 23:22

Normally we ask our guests about PIE, right? But you're involved in CALL. Can you kind of merge them together? Can you think of a situation or activity where you're using PIE and CALL together?

Brian 23:33

In our go back to the little dialogues that I said before. The first time that the students do the dialogue, first time is slow, second time is super fast, third time is comfortable slow or comfortable. That's probably the first the first week or the first or second week, we'll do it just so that they're they have an idea of speed and volume, and okay, they get into a bit of a rhythm with that. Once they've had the rhythm for a little bit, then I'll say to them, right, okay, take out your smartphone. You know, like Japanese milk cartons, you always have to cut them and wash them before you throw them out. Yep. So I I take the milk cartons and I make a prism. So instead of like the four walls, it's down to three walls, and then at the top, I cut two squares out, so it becomes with it with a rubber band around it, it becomes a tripod where students can put their camera. And so it costs nothing. It's really easy for me to take to the class and stuff like that. Students get used to that, so they put the camera on their desk and they record themselves. So students are aware of how close they are to the camera. Uh, they're aware of the volume, what it means to be recording. They get to see you like who is in shot or who is out of shot, like how you're like close that you need to be. They understand kind of like movements, you know, like and and how if they if they are close to the speaker or the microphone, it's very loud, but if they're far away from it, it's very quiet. And so that's using a computer, smartphone, assist them in their language learning. So it's also teaching them a wee bit kind of like idea of like kind of like stage presence and position. And so I have them record the first time they record, I say to them, right, okay, your homework is to watch your recording and then write me something, some small comments about what it was like, and then the next week we'll do or the next lesson, it'll be a new dialogue because it's on to the next unit, and then I'll I'll change it up a little bit. You know, like so. Say for example, you need to be facing the window when you record, and so then students understand front lighting, yeah. So you got front lighting, you know, like so today. I've got the window to my to my left side, so you get this idea of half of your face is well lit, half of your face is dark, and so I again you're like just using it's it's really it's not so much me front-ending, you know, like a kind of Japanese set some, you know, like of me explaining it all. So like it's just do like I've I know what I'm doing, I've prepared that, and I have them do it, and then they kind of realize and you're like, oh yeah, you know, like I'm uh I look kind of funny, or you're like the shadow is really kind of that's not good, you know, like oh it's better that way, and so is experiential learning by using the technology, and then people kind of like get a better idea, you know, like and and so we usually our assessment for that course is students have to do a skit, and so they have to create the skits, they have to write the scripts, they have to write it with direction, you know, like so they're using their computers to type it. They're so they're learning formatting as we go through. They get to have an idea of what is spoken dialogue, what is direction, you know, like so, even for example, like emotion, you like for this line or whatever. And so you can you can you can put in so much more that that students don't even know because most students haven't done drama at school, you know, like they've hardly even done any kind of like speaking further than the the usual middle school Marco Polo speech kind of thing. So my my students for their drama skit they are given the option of doing a live drama performance or for making a short movie, and most of them think, oh, I'll do the movie because that'll be easier, and I'll not have to stand up in front of people and perform. But what they don't realize is true, Robert. Yeah, the opposite is true because then you realize that man, the camera is like really close to your face, so your face is gonna be like three feet by three feet, and you're like on the big screen, you look on a close-up, you know, like and and so I think it's good for students to so if they're gonna make something, then they they know how it works, and they know what works, and they know what doesn't work, and so I think Japanese kids normally have, or Japanese employees, you need to have your little speech ready, right? There's always people saying, like, oh, you like please what's your message to you like the students, or what's your message to you know like a senior or something. I I think for me that was a kind of shocker, you know, like people say that right, okay, so you know, go go ahead, give your speech. And I was thinking, what? No, I've not got anything prepared. But I think in Japan, everybody you like has that expectation that you can, you know, you can put something together. So I I guess trying to trying to combine you like some aspects of their own culture, you like with the foreign culture is a good way to get output. Like uh, you know Kamishibai?

Darren 29:12

We just did a podcast about it.

Brian 29:16

Raw, right. And so I I think Kamishi bai is is is great for people working on their voice, for example, because they're behind the screen, you like so it's good for you like for for reading and for voice and for theatrical effect, you know, like and trying to make something a bit more than it is, you know, like because you know?

Darren 29:35

Similar to reader's theater in that way.

Brian 29:37

Reader's theater, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that that that's good for for for people. I I used to have a French teacher, and the French teacher would always say, You you you need to think in French, you know, like and we were like, What are you talking about? And she said, use your French voice and use your French mind, you know, like the idea that don't slow yourself down by constantly translating backwards and forwards, which of course is it's very, very difficult to do. Mostly at school, uh the basic level is écoute et répéter, écoutez et répéte, écoutez et répéte. And I do that with students as well here in French, in the English class, you know, like, and so I do the kind of like the the hand behind the ear, you know, like écoutez, and then like you do the kind of like the rolling hand forward for répéte, and so écoutez et répéter. And so there's that, you know, like kind of like element of, you know, like a gesture with you know, like a sound and something that is strange, but then when you explain it, then they realize that they're doing it now in three languages, it right, they're doing it in the strange language they've never heard before. They're doing it in the English and they're doing it in their Japanese. You're like, and then they're gonna think of like, oh, we did three languages today. And you think like they all get a wee bit kind of chirpy, you know. So have half the half from the brain fire on different cylinders.

Darren 31:03

As we wrap up, I'm wondering if you could recommend a couple of activities that teachers could do. It could be call activities or it could be PIE or some kind of amalgamation.

Brian 31:14

I I would probably say for performance that recording yourself with your smartphone is one of the best things that you can do, you know, like just to get an idea of simple things like mannerisms that you maybe didn't notice that you have. They always teach us, tell us this in when you're doing teacher training, you know, like record your lessons so you know how students see you. You know, I think at a young age, most people, you know, like sing in the shower with a shampoo bottle or a or a hairbrush, whatever. You know, like I see my own kids, you know, like just looking at themselves in the mirror when they're speaking, you know, like so like how does my how are my lips moving? You know, like what am I doing? So yeah, I think like CALL-wise, record... record yourself and then look at it and then delete it and it's gone, right? Don't share it with anybody, just use it for yourself, just like it's just like a hand mirror. Get used to your your voice, listen to your voice, you like trying doing different things, even doing like kind of like an athlete doing simple exercises, right? Like when a basketball player gets onto the court before the game starts, what do they do? You know, like they they they bounce the ball a bit and then they throw up a couple of shots, you know, like they try a few things from distance, from near, like whatever they run about a bit. And I say, like, so you can do that, you can do that with your smartphone, you know, like so you can choose anything from anywhere, you know, like reading an advert on the train, or you know, like just looking at the front page of the newspaper, you know, like doing a kind of book, you know, like reading the instructions on the elevator, you know, like just listen, listen to yourself and and and see yourself just getting used to it, you know, because that then you're you're self-training, you know. Like one one activity that I like to do with students, and I have a I have a very simple sheet or board game, whoever, and there are maybe kind of like 20 things on the sheet, and the activity would be both of us, neither of us. Both of us, neither of us. And so, for example, like smoke. You're like, Do you smoke? I don't smoke. Do you smoke? Okay, neither of us smoke. Chocolate. Just the word chocolate. And you say, like, well, what do you do with chocolate? Make chocolate, eat chocolate, cook chocolate. So the most of them are gonna say, like, eat chocolate, do you eat chocolate? Or do you like chocolate? And right, okay. Doing that before the introductions. I think introductions sometimes are just too too early for people to perform well at. Do something first before it. So an introduction is never warm, right? You always talk about do a warm-up. So yeah, let them let them get moving first and then do it, and then the result is always kind of like bet, you know, like you're always gonna get something. Yeah.

Darren 34:11

So Brian, usually we wrap up the podcast with a discussion about AI.

Brian 34:16

Yep.

Darren 34:16

So, in your opinion, how should we be approaching AI in the classroom?

Brian 34:22

I think AI used as a tool as opposed to a replacement is how we should be thinking about AI.

Darren 34:35

How do we know when we've crossed the line?

Brian 34:40

I think for the for when we are using AI to do the creative part is when the humanity is lost. So brain brainstorming, planning, thinking should be trained in students and it should be practiced instead of just giving topics. I think a lot of a lot of activities need to be made so that it is impossible to use AI. So, for example, that little activity of neither of us, both of us, you can't use AI for that, right? Because AI doesn't know the content of that human being. Right? So, yes, it could give you structure and it could check, you know, like grammar and stuff like that. But if if we make things more personal and personable, then we can get the best out of it. You know, like when people say, like, okay, so tell me about your family. You can't ask AI to do that, you know, like my family is, you know, like whatever. So I think like we we need to we need to design tasks and ask students to do things that we know uh AI can't help them with. I know, I know for I I I've used AI to create dialogues, like dramatical dialogues, which gives great output, gives great output, but I can use them for practice, and then ask students, you know, like to deconstruct what was in the creation. Say, for example, you're you're gonna create a dialogue, like I I did before, you know, like set several dialogues, like the Salty Sailor and stuff like that, you know, like so create a drama for five players set in, you know, like blah blah blah. And so that the prompt that you have to write in itself, you need to have good language skills in order to write the prompt properly. So prompt writing can be a good thing to teach students how to do properly. The only trouble now is that what students are doing is they're in their own language, they're writing it in their own language and then machine translating it, and then using the AI to then give them the output. And so, of course, given all the technology in the world, you can probably create quite a lot of stuff, but sometimes it's easier to just do it without any technology. I think like teachers should have control over their class and their students to the extent that there are parts of the lesson where technology is used and encouraged, and there are parts of the lesson where the technology is discouraged. You can't have like a an on-off, you know, like it's I let people use smartphones in my class, or I don't let people lose like it has to be more tailored than that, it has to be more specific. And again, back to what I was saying before about the rationale, if you explain like why we're using it now and why we're not using it now. You know, like I have students that try to use their smartphone when they're doing the drama and say, like, well, you can do it in rehearsal, right? Because rehearsal is the time where it's okay to use it. But really, a smartphone is very small, you know, like an A4 paper is at least four times larger than your largest smartphone screen, right? And so you pick and choose your tool at the right moment. You like, but when it comes to showtime, you know, like no nobody's holding the script in their hand, nobody's using a smartphone, you know, like and reading from it. So I think that again, giving students the experience to do it at different times lets them then understand when is okay and when it's not okay. So that again, that the rationale is really clear. You know, like actors, you can't see the script when they're on the screen.

Darren 39:07

Right...I was watching a YouTube video yesterday and it was teachers in America complaining about their students. And one of them said, you know, my student says, Why do I need to learn how to read when I can just ask ChatGTP to read it to me? This is what we used to say about calculators, right? Like, why do I need to learn all this mathematics when I can just put it in the calculator and get the result? That's how they're thinking about everything now. So, what skills should they be leaving our classes with, do you think? Because ChatGTP can do a lot of these things for them.

Brian 39:40

I was using my Google Maps and it used a lot of power. And then I suddenly found that you're like, yeah, my phone was dead. I was thinking, now it's just me. Now it's it's just the human. You're like, what can I do? What can I do that's un you know, like unassisted. I think like our SIG is called computer assisted language learning. I've done presentations before and research on assistive and disruptive technology. Right. And and I think that that there are some technologies or some moments where technology is disruptive. And and so by knowing when it is, by experiencing when it is and when it's not, gives people a better understanding of what they should and shouldn't do. You know? So by giving lots of very well planned, thought out experiences to students, you know, like it'll help them make that decision themselves a bit better.

Darren 40:45

Okay. Well, it's been a great discussion. We've covered a lot of ground, and I think it's good to have a talk with you because you've you've got a foot in both the PIE SIG and CALL SIG and give us a unique perspective. So thank you very much.

Brian 40:59

Thanks for having me.

Darren 41:00

Thank you for listening. Until next time, stay focused and keep performing.