Unpacking Friends with Benefits

Heidi, Jane, and Etienne unpack what “friends with benefits” really means, where lines blur, and how rules and honesty can protect both the friendship and the fun. We share personal wins, cringes, and recoveries—plus what happens when chemistry, expectations, and silence collide.

• defining friends with benefits 
• study insight on college FWB 
• rules that work—safer sex, monogamy agreements, overnights, exit plans
• when a relationship slides into FWB without consent
• why communication prevents one-sided feelings and ghosting
• kissing chemistry, technique, and the unglamorous realities
• adult cross-gender friendships, boundaries, and hidden crushes
• age gaps, power dynamics, and consent clarity
• threesomes versus fantasy—performance pressure and logistics
• how to end kindly and salvage real friendships

Email us at info at the women are plotting.com
And of course, you can find us on all the socials
Thanks, and until next time, be safe and be excellent to each other

Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com, and find us on all the socials. Be safe and be excellent to each other.

Chapters

• 0:00 Opening Banter & Fun/Interesting FActs
• 5:31 Jane's Experience with a Friend with Benefit
• 8:53 When Etienne Learned About Friends with Benefits
• 12:40 Heidi's High School Experience with FWBs
• 14:53 Keeping FWBs while Dating & Why It Might Be A Good Idea
• 16:05 Jane's Flirty Friend
• 18:44 Heidi's Wild Spin the Bottle Experiences
• 19:56 Etienne's Worst Kisser Ever
• 22:16 Jane's Worst Kisser
• 28:32 Losing a Friend After Having Sex
• 30:11 Making Male Friends As Adult Women
• 36:49 Etienne's Favorite Friend with Benefit
• 46:08 Jane's Reverse FWBs

Transcript

[00:00:00] Etienne: Welcome listeners. This is The Women Are Plotting. I'm Etienne Rose Olivier and I'm here with my friends and co-hosts, Heidi Willis and Jane Gari.

[00:00:15] Etienne: Today's episode, we'll be talking about friends with benefits. And my fun, interesting fact for today's episode, I was super lazy, so I Googled who is the most famous friend with benefit, and a celebrity popped up. You're not gonna believe this. Diane Cannon, for anybody who doesn't know who Diane Cannon is, she was in the movie, Heaven Can Wait with Warren Beatty.

[00:00:38] Etienne: She was also an author, author, which I did see a bunch of times as a kid for some reason. But she was also married to Carrie Grant for three years in the 1960s. Yeah. Has a child, had a daughter with him. So during an interview last month, she said that she has a few friends with benefits. She's 88 years old.

[00:00:58] Etienne: She is my idol now.

[00:01:00] Jane: now.

[00:01:00] Heidi: yes.

[00:01:01] Etienne: is like, there's always room for friends with benefits.

[00:01:07] Heidi: that's amazing.

[00:01:08] Etienne: I'm so excited. And Heidi, what is your interesting fact for today?

[00:01:14] Heidi: so I didn't know what to look for, so I just was like, okay, interesting. Crazy sex facts. So I found that there is a King of England from like the one thousands, so a long time ago. His name is Ed Eadwig. Anyway, at his coronation, which he was only 15, he left the feast and was caught with his wife and his mother-in-law having a threesome

[00:01:54] Etienne: Oh Lord

[00:01:55] Heidi: age 15, and he only ruled, till he was 18, I think he died.

[00:02:01] Etienne: Of 

[00:02:02] Heidi: Isn't that crazy? Like that's, that's a way to start your reign.

[00:02:06] Etienne: Oh wow. That is balls, man.

[00:02:08] Heidi: But it's bizarre, like with his wife and mother-in-law. Like what?

[00:02:13] Jane: Ew.

[00:02:13] Etienne: Wow, that's quite a family.

[00:02:16] Heidi: Yeah. So I was like, that's

[00:02:19] Etienne: like today's favorite.

[00:02:21] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:02:24] Jane: That's so gross. What's funny is, before recording, we were talking about incest in the Bible, and so apparently, you know, it's just the theme of the day. Ugh.

[00:02:36] Heidi: All right. Jane, what's your fun fact?

[00:02:38] Jane: It's not about incest, I'll say that. I actually found a fact about friends with benefits, 'cause I was thinking when does that start happening? I know that maybe some high school kids are getting a jump on that, but, probably not as much as college kids. So I looked at, there was actually a study from 2013, and it reported that half of college students.

[00:03:01] Jane: Said that they had been in a friends with benefits relationship and that most of the time didn't lead to anything long term. And many of them either just dissolved back into friendship or just ended entirely. 'cause I always wondered, once you start having sex with someone that you're friends with, does it just follow like the Hollywood script of when Harry Met Sally of like, okay, like, no, now, now we're together. Or, can it go back to being a friendship without the benefits or, or do you just not talk to each other anymore? I find this topic really fascinating because I personally have never been able to do that. Like I can't divorce feelings from sex. And I'm just wondering when people say friends with benefits, are they talking about, is it a misnomer? Like are they actually friends? Are you hanging out and having coffee with this person sometimes and then other times.

[00:03:59] Jane: You're having sex or we really just talking about like a fuck buddy. And then I'm like, okay, what's the difference between a booty call and friends with benefits or are we talking about the same thing? So I'd like to, I would love to hear what you guys think of the term.

[00:04:12] Heidi: I kind of think it's the same thing. I think. Yeah. Fuck buddy.

[00:04:19] Heidi: hook up. Yeah.

[00:04:21] Etienne: I think the only, yeah, I think the only time that that wouldn't be the same thing. Is if it actually is like an ex romantic partner of some kind that you are dipping into every once in a while, but you're friends with them so. It actually is primarily a friendship and you sometimes because of, one or both of you needing some extra attention physically that you agree to do this, but you have to have like rules in place or, yeah. I was reading some articles in Psychology Today and they talked about the different rules that people have. Like some people have rules such as this is a monogamous friend with benefit situation. And then the very next rule was like, no, you're allowed to sleep with other people.

[00:05:07] Etienne: So it really depends on what rules you come up with. Hopefully you have an actual conversation.

[00:05:12] Heidi: Yeah, yeah.

[00:05:14] Etienne: if you don't, then it's just whatever you decide in your head, and then something might go badly down the road, you know?

[00:05:20] Heidi: Yeah, yeah. You definitely gotta talk it out. 'cause you don't want one person catching feelings and the other person is like, no, that was, that was never happening.

[00:05:31] Jane: See, and I think that's the closest I ever got to friends with benefits is that I was in a relationship and I know it was a relationship because I was completely love bombed, you know? And he told me, I love you and if I were more established, I would ask you to marry me. I was like, whoa, we are 19.

[00:05:45] Jane: Slow your role. But I mean, I did have feelings for him and we did have good sex, but it was, I think then slowly became one sided. Where I had more feelings for him than he did for me, and then he wasn't including me in his life. And then we would still hang out. Periodically. And then whenever we hung out, we would have sex.

[00:06:12] Jane: So we kind of started hot and heavy with dating and having experiences together and it felt reciprocal and there was depth there. And then over the course of the year, it turned out it was a year and a half. Turned into, yeah. Then I think he just was like, all right, I will have sex with her when I see her.

[00:06:35] Jane: Because a couple weeks would go by without contact. And this is before cell phones. This was 92 to 93. And so it was very confusing. So I think it started out as a relationship and turned into friends with benefits. But I 

[00:06:50] Heidi: That you didn't know about

[00:06:51] Jane: I did not know about that. I just was

[00:06:55] Heidi: He was doing lots of friends with benefits.

[00:06:57] Etienne: See. This is where communication on his part, or maybe if you brought it up, like, we don't see each other that often, or when we do, it just seems like we have sex and that's it. Like, how are you feeling about things, about me, about us?

[00:07:10] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:13] Jane: Yeah. I was 19. So we did have that conversation,

[00:07:15] Etienne: Oh, you, you did. Okay.

[00:07:17] Jane: but which turned into a, um, you know. you're the best, Jane, but I'm moving to England and I was like, okay, I guess it's over.

[00:07:28] Etienne: You're the best. I'm leaving the country.

[00:07:30] Jane:  yes, you're the best. I'm like, okay. It was like, take care. I'm like, really? Anyway, it's all right. He's, was a dick. And he was a dick. Yeah.

[00:07:46] Heidi: Are you gonna tell us the story? 

[00:07:48] Jane: So yeah, I mean, the guy was a dick, but. I'm better off without him because it just ended up, there were so many red flags.

[00:07:56] Jane: So many red flags, so I'm glad it just dissolved into nothingness. I did see him periodically, and when I did it was just super awkward. Like, I saw him the first night that I ever did ecstasy and my first reaction to seeing him, because the breakup was just so weird.

[00:08:16] Jane: Like, you're the best, you know, when I saw him, my first reaction was to throw my hands up and go, no. It's like I just took ecstasy for the first time and you're going to ruin it. Just being here. And his face was like, wow. I was with my then current boyfriend and we were all determined that I was going to have a good night and that I just didn't want him to spoil it. And so we didn't, but yeah, that was it. That's my only one.

[00:08:43] Etienne: And kind of your accidental friend with benefit situation. Yeah. Not of you're doing.

[00:08:50] Jane: So what about you guys?

[00:08:53] Etienne: I actually was introduced to friends with benefits from listening to my dad and my mom used to talk about how she met my dad 'cause he was a bartender. This is my adopted father, by the way. My mother is my real mother, but this was my adoptive father. So when they married, he adopted me.

[00:09:09] Etienne: But he was a bartender while he was going to school for property management or whatever it was that he did. And he had different women for different days of the week or different nights of the week. And I think my mom was like Thursday or something. She was not a Friday, she wasn't a Saturday. And they only got married because she got pregnant.

[00:09:29] Etienne: And that's how I heard about you could have this situation where you could be such a just a hot shit that if you wanted to, you could have different people to have sex with on different days of the week. And when I started having sex in college. As soon as I got through, like having my first couple boyfriends, I was like, yeah, I just kind of, I wanna have what my dad had.

[00:09:52] Etienne: Like, I wanna have like different men for different days of the week. Like, that would be awesome. And I think the most I got up to was like two or three. I didn't get that high up in the scale of things, but I remember there was a guy who was a barback at, at a club in Hollywood. I wasn't even old enough to go to these clubs.

[00:10:10] Etienne: I had a fake id. So, um, one was a fellow film production major at the same school that I was at, and I'm pretty sure the first time he and I had sex was in an editing bay, like in the middle of the night. Yeah. He only had one ball too.

[00:10:28] Jane: Whoa.

[00:10:29] Etienne: Don't remember what happened. But he only had one.

[00:10:34] Jane: You sure it wasn't just like the two looked like they were 

[00:10:37] Etienne: He explained it like he'd had, something happen, like a tumor or something. He didn't, I don't think he had cancer. I mean, we're talking about a guy who was around my age, like 19 to 21. You know, he was pretty young.

[00:10:48] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:49] Etienne: Oh, that's a Barback guy though. He was the only guy that was a terrible kisser, but was allowed to go further in the process of physicality with me because he kissed me in a way that was awful, but I thought this might actually work in another area perfectly.

[00:11:10] Heidi: Did it?

[00:11:11] Etienne: Yes it did, because when he stuck his tongue in my mouth, he went around in circles really fast. I was like, this is terrible for my mouth. This is doing nothing for my face.

[00:11:21] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:22] Etienne: But yes, he did the exact same thing down below and it was so good. It remember liking it a lot.

[00:11:30] Heidi: So you put up the kissing.

[00:11:31] Etienne: I put up a, well, I just immediately tried to get away from the kissing and like get the clothes off, get the, get his face where it needed to go.

[00:11:41] Jane: you're like, keep doing that. I will move

[00:11:43] Etienne: Yeah. Here, just stay right there. Take my clothes off and scoot around. But yeah, that was me trying to have friends with benefits. It worked out for a little while, but yeah, I was looking back. To the men who I've had, since my ex-husband. And, every single friend with benefit that I had, who I started out as a friend with benefit, didn't progress to anything but that stayed completely friends with benefits.

[00:12:08] Etienne: That our little mini friend with benefit relationships never went past two months. Two months seemed to be the max. Even if I wanted to try to go longer, something would happen. Like either they'd screw up or like I met somebody and couldn't do it anymore, or they had, they finally met somebody and need to be like, I think this might be a girlfriend.

[00:12:28] Etienne: I need to like go. I'm like, yeah, go. Like, this is not bad. It's not important. We're just having sex. You can leave anytime. Like,

[00:12:36] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:12:38] Etienne: but yeah, Heidi. I'd like to hear about your 

[00:12:40] Heidi: so I was a part of a friend group in high school, and yeah, it was wild. Um, we'd kind of just have sex with each other, like we'd swap partners every swap.

[00:12:56] Etienne: Oh wow. 

[00:12:57] Heidi: like 

[00:12:58] Etienne: really 

[00:12:58] Jane: In the same orgy-style

[00:13:00] Heidi: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like not orgy style or anything like that. Just like, oh, I'm sleeping with Mike right now, and that may go on for a month and then it's this other guy and

[00:13:14] Etienne: Oh wow. And there were girls in this group as well. like 

[00:13:17] Heidi: yeah.

[00:13:17] Heidi: Yeah, that's what 

[00:13:18] Etienne: equal number of girls and guys, I 

[00:13:20] Heidi: uh, no, there's more guys than

[00:13:22] Etienne: Uh, I bet,

[00:13:23] Heidi: group. Uh, yeah, that's why there was a lot to choose from and they were all good looking.

[00:13:29] Etienne: Oh my god, this sounds like heaven.

[00:13:32] Heidi: Yeah. And something similar happened in the Air Force too. And I got to my first duty station, before I started dating my first husband.

[00:13:43] Heidi: Yeah, there was a guy, he was in the same dorm. Really sweet guy, sweet kid. Yeah, we were having sex on the down low. Nobody in our unit knew. But yeah, he had never drank or done drugs and he was just like very sweet and innocent, but jacked.

[00:14:01] Etienne: Oh gosh.

[00:14:02] Heidi: Yeah. And there was one time, I remember I was taking a shower and I guess I left my door unlocked.

[00:14:11] Heidi: He had come in and I felt somebody grabbing my boob as I'm taking a shower. I'm like, what the heck is going? And it's him. And I'm like, oh, okay.

[00:14:21] Etienne: Oh my God.

[00:14:23] Heidi: Yeah, yeah

[00:14:24] Etienne: Is that your first encounter sexually with him? Oh, okay.

[00:14:27] Heidi: We'd been having sex for a while. Um, yeah,

[00:14:30] Etienne: creepy. That's not a good way to start things out.

[00:14:33] Heidi: No, no. Like, yeah. If that had been in his first, yeah. Immediate get out. No. But, yeah, he was really good too. I'm trying to think. And then, yeah, recently I've had a few of those. And yeah, it's just fun to have a playmate, someone to play with while you're dating, like while you're looking for the one, have someone to kind of scratch that itch.

[00:14:58] Etienne: Well, yeah, that's exactly why post-divorce, that's why I had friends with benefits I wanted to take the sexual tension that I would've had otherwise out of the equation, so I wouldn't accidentally be looking at 'em through like sex goggles. I'd be looking at 'em with my eyes so I could see all the red flags and not ignore them because I want sex, you know?

[00:15:16] Heidi: Yep. That's, that's my thinking too. That's the reason why Yeah. I've acquired some in the past. 'cause

[00:15:25] Etienne: And I think as women our age, it's easier. I mean, it was easy for me, younger too, but I think I was a little differently wired in the brain to keep sex and feelings separate. I can just have sex. I don't have to have feelings involved at all. And still have good sex, great sex sometimes, you know?

[00:15:45] Etienne:  I know there's some women out there who have a problem, like, you know, can't really, or they can't actually have satisfying sex unless they have feelings for somebody, you know? Yeah. Whereas that, yeah, that would be, that'd be rough. That was the only time I, oh.

[00:16:05] Jane: I can't do it. I was even gonna be like, there was an exception with this one guy, but we had been friends in high school and we hooked up. And I really don't even count him as an actual sexual partner because I let him get inside of me and a couple seconds later went, no,

[00:16:26] Etienne: What was it like One thrust?

[00:16:28] Jane: just a co honestly just like maybe two. And I was like, no. I was like, we can't, we can't, we can't. Because I just was freaking out like, why, what am I doing?

[00:16:38] Etienne: Uh,

[00:16:39] Jane: so, uh, 

[00:16:41] Heidi: You didn't want to ruin the friendship.

[00:16:42] Etienne: is that right? I mean, you already had your clothes off. He already had his penis inside.

[00:16:46] Jane: I Clothes were not off. They

[00:16:48] Etienne: Oh, okay.

[00:16:49] Jane: things were kind of pushed aside and it was like a crazy, we were making out and having just crazy make out sessions.

[00:16:57] Jane: This one trip that I went home to Georgia after I had gone to college in New York, and so I was home for the summer, but this was after I couldn't go home and stay with my mom and stepdad because the family situation there had already erupted where I couldn't stay there safely and comfortably.

[00:17:17] Jane: So I was staying with my friend and because I was just in a weird place that I think I just latched on to the idea of like, let's just have a fling with Chad while I'm home this summer. And it was fun. So maybe it was like a friends with benefits, but mostly just crazy making out and getting high together and walking around in the woods and definitely all kinds of touching each other's stuff and then just kind of having sex on his couch, you know?

[00:17:45] Jane: But. Literally, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, we can't. I just felt like, you know, at that point I should have just said like, all right, let's go for it. But I was freaked out. I was freaked out about diseases and getting pregnant. I was just like, ah, maybe if you just pull out right now, it's like the five second rule.

[00:18:03] Etienne: there is no, I'm sorry.

[00:18:05] Jane: I know

[00:18:06] Etienne: There is no five second rule. There's no two second rule. You're Whatever it touches. It touches.

[00:18:12] Jane: I know I was 18. I wasn't rational, you know? Yeah.

[00:18:17] Etienne: You, I think you.

[00:18:18] Jane: just like, that's enough.

[00:18:19] Etienne: I feel like you created as a new definition. You were, instead of friends with benefits, you were flirty friends. 'cause you were making out and you were like, probably groping, but you weren't, I mean, you had your one episode there where his penis accidentally slipped inside of you. But you know, he tripped and fell and he landed on his dick for a second. No, I'm just kidding. Um, but no like flirty friends. I mean, it's more of like a, I don't know. That seems kinda sweet.

[00:18:44] Heidi: there was lots of friends where I just made out with them. Like that same friend group in high school and then an additional friend group in the Air Force. I don't know, we just played spin the bottle all the time like we were teenagers and. Just, I, I remember at the, the one group that was here in Iowa that we'd all get together and drink.

[00:19:09] Heidi: Yeah, we started playing spin the bottle, and then it became like this whole thing of who could last the longest just kissing.

[00:19:17] Etienne: What, like in front of everybody or

[00:19:20] Heidi: Yes.

[00:19:20] Etienne: Wow.

[00:19:21] Jane: what? Without taking a breath, without getting an erection. Like what's the 

[00:19:24] Heidi: I don't know, like we just. I remember there was one guy, I can't remember his name, but he was such a good kisser and we would just make out, we'd just keep making out and the rest of 'em be done, like go to the other room and we're still like,

[00:19:39] Etienne: Oh, well you won obviously.

[00:19:42] Heidi: yeah.

[00:19:43] Etienne: Did you only kiss this one guy or

[00:19:45] Heidi: I really like, yeah, if somebody's a really good kisser, I love that. I love making out. I miss it so much.

[00:19:56] Etienne: Did I ever tell you? I'm sure I know. I told Jane, but Heidi, you might not have heard this. The guy who was the worst kisser in the world besides the guy with the twirly tongue

[00:20:04] Heidi: Yeah, yeah,

[00:20:05] Etienne: Worst. Like more recent bad kisser. 'cause this was like eight, nine years ago.

[00:20:11] Heidi: yeah.

[00:20:14] Etienne: It was after a date where I was not impressed like, it didn't do anything for me.

[00:20:18] Etienne: Like I was not feeling any butterflies of any kind. He was a little bit older than me, but I was trying, he made me dinner on his boat. He lived on a boat. He did boat tours. It was a very nice boat. It was a very nice dinner. He walked me out off the boat after dinner or when I was leaving, and went in for a kiss and he's taller than me.

[00:20:39] Etienne: By a lot. So I remember I had to tip my head back, like all the way for the kiss. And the entire kiss was just saliva pouring into my mouth.

[00:20:50] Heidi: Oh my God. Oh my God.

[00:20:52] Etienne: And I was like, what is happening? Why is all this saliva, what is happening? And I was suddenly wanting to vomit and I'm like, I can't vomit in this guy's mouth. Like I have to just hold it.

[00:21:05] Etienne: Swallow the saliva and get the hell outta here. worse than sperm when you're not expecting it. Like, you know, if, if a guy's coming in your mouth, like that's way different than when you just saliva from nowhere. It was like he had a, like you faucet, like he just turned it on and it just like, just spur, spewed into my mouth.

[00:21:25] Etienne: I was saliva and I just could not,

[00:21:28] Heidi: Oh yeah. The sloppy, the sloppy kissers that like want to eat your face and just get it all wet. Like, yeah, I don't like that. Blah.

[00:21:37] Etienne: And that makes me break out. I get really red and my skin starts to freak out. Even if I could wash it immediately, there's still like somebody's. Their germs and their, their antibiotic, you know, all the things that are in their mouth are not all over my face. It's not, not good. And if they have stubble and they're doing 

[00:21:55] Heidi: Oh, 

[00:21:56] Etienne: we've just opened up all of my skin. We've made it rot, and then we've, we just smeared

[00:22:01] Heidi: Smeared,

[00:22:02] Etienne: smeared their mouth saliva, all over my face.

[00:22:08] Jane: They literally changed your microbiome, which is the sloppy kiss. It's so 

[00:22:12] Etienne: Oh God, no. Oh my.

[00:22:16] Jane: I mean, my worst kiss ever was also because of just the spit and the weird tongue movements, and years later I found out that he was actually gay, which I don't think had

[00:22:29] Etienne: I don't think that 

[00:22:30] Jane: him not being a 

[00:22:32] Etienne: I don't see how that would matter. You have the same parts as men

[00:22:35] Heidi: Yeah, yeah.

[00:22:35] Etienne: up 

[00:22:36] Jane: But I think that maybe he was trying really hard to be into it, and so maybe he didn't kiss as naturally as he would have if I were a dude. But, we were in high school and I really just dated him because we were friends first and we were both obsessed with the Beatles. And he looked a lot, and I mean, a lot like John Lennon. So in the brief period that we dated, he had the same glasses. He wore his hair. Like he deliberately was trying to look like John Lennon from the, he looked like John Lennon circa the white album. Like his hair was that length and he just had just the same everything except for the accents, you know?

[00:23:14] Jane: Yeah, right. And so people jokingly called us John and Yoko, which I was like, okay, you're insulting me, but you're complimenting him, whatever. Um, but I just dated him for the friendship, you know? And because the first time he kissed me, which was on his parents' boat, it was a. Italian speedboat. It was a sweet boat.

[00:23:38] Jane: He had taken me out on the boat and it was like very romantic on Lake Oconee in Georgia, and we saw the sunset and everything and we hadn't kissed yet. He invited me to go to his parents' lake house for the weekend, and his parents were there, but he took me out on the boat by himself, we were by ourselves.

[00:23:55] Jane: And I'm 16 and I'm just thinking, I'm living the dream. I felt like I was in a John Hughes movie. He made us a picnic on the boat. We've watched the sunset and then we take the boat back to his dock and there was an area underneath where he could go lay down. There was like a bed down there. He's like, you wanna go check out down below? And I was like, is this a euphemism?

[00:24:17] Etienne: I know.

[00:24:17] Jane: but, 

[00:24:18] Heidi: know 

[00:24:18] Jane: but I was like, yeah, I wanna check out down below. And then he starts kissing me and it was like a piece of cheese, and I know this because I conducted this experiment afterwards, if you took a slice of American cheese and you cut it out to be a tongue shape, and then you ran it under a lot of water and then you put it in your mouth and wiggled it, that is exactly what it felt like, and it was just so, it was so wet and so gross. And just floppy

[00:24:54] Etienne: Might be good on another spot.

[00:24:55] Jane: slime.

[00:24:57] Etienne: Sorry.

[00:24:57] Jane: Sorry. Exactly. But I wasn't ready for that yet, so I, it didn't even occur to me to be like, Hey dude, do this. And I, I kept trying 'cause I thought maybe it's, we're just not compatible yet. But I'd already kissed other people where it was like amazing. And so I just thought we're doing it wrong.

[00:25:14] Jane: And we both had braces, so I thought maybe that was a problem. And it was a problem at one time. So he was very tall and I'm very short, so he's probably six four and I'm five feet tall, so he was, he's kissing me goodbye one day when I'm still giving him another chance. And, I'm trying and our braces did the thing that you

[00:25:37] Etienne: Oh no. They get locked together.

[00:25:39] Jane: So totally locked together. And what happens is with your brackets, if you just both have the wire between the brackets and not the things that look like railroad tracks, um. just, there's enough space there where your bracket lines up with the space between his brackets and we were stuck and I was like, you've got to be

[00:25:59] Etienne: Oh, no.

[00:26:00] Jane: we're stuck and we're trying to like push each other like you move. And as this is happening, my stepsister walks in on us like, 'cause she needs to leave. And she. Was laughing so hard but would not leave 'cause she kind of did that thing, like the slow motion collapsed to the floor. You're laughing so hard and pointing,

[00:26:18] Etienne: You can,

[00:26:19] Jane: unnecessary. And

[00:26:21] Etienne: I wish I'd seen this.

[00:26:24] Jane: I mean, it's definitely hilarious now, but I was like, mortified. So we finally just like ripped apart and like we were both like bleeding a little. It was really horrible. And I was like, you know what? This is it. That's it. I didn't break up with him right then. But what happened was the next day I had an afterschool meeting for one of my geeky things for the gifted and talented program, and there was this guy in the gifted and talented program who was like super hot skater boy, and he had just.

[00:26:52] Jane: You know that floppy haircut from the late eighties, he looked like he could be maybe in an REM video and had, it was like shaved a little bit underneath and he was into all the bands that I was into, in addition to the Beatles. And he was also incredibly smart and wrote great poetry.

[00:27:09] Etienne: Oh my God.

[00:27:10] Heidi: Hmm. 

[00:27:11] Jane: So he was sitting behind me at this meeting and my viola, 'cause I played the viola, my viola case, fell and knocked over his book bag. And I was like, oh, I'm so sorry. And, he reached down to help me and our heads kind of like butted and we started laughing and we just kind of looked at each other.

[00:27:28] Jane: And I knew in that moment that I was gonna break up with, John Lennon lookalike, like immediate. I was like, because there was a vibe and, um. And totally. He was just like, Hey, are you gonna the homecoming dance? And I was just like, I'm not sure. And he was like, well, if you get sure, would you like to go with me?

[00:27:45] Jane: And I was like, yeah. He was so smooth and he was one of the best kissers. Ever. So I was like, hooray, because I did do with my friends, I did the experiment where I, like I said, it felt like wet cheese in my mouth. And so we actually did the thing, and that's how I know that it's an accurate description.

[00:28:05] Jane: But this guy, this guy was an amazing kisser and it worked. In both areas. He was like the first person who ever went down on me and I was 

[00:28:15] Heidi: Ooh. 

[00:28:16] Jane: I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. It was a whole new world. And, um,

[00:28:22] Etienne: don't, don't sing it. We'll have to cut it out.

[00:28:25] Jane: no, no, I'm not going to sing it.

[00:28:29] Heidi: No,

[00:28:31] Etienne: don't have the money for anything.

[00:28:32] Heidi: since we're, since we're talking about friends with benefits, was there any like good friend that you slept with and it ruined the friendship

[00:28:42] Etienne: Oh. None of them are my friends.

[00:28:45] Heidi: I

[00:28:45] Etienne: Not for real. You 

[00:28:47] Heidi: That happened? Yeah. In high school. Yeah. We've been friends since we were kids.

[00:28:54] Etienne: no.

[00:28:55] Heidi: Yeah. Yeah. And I could call him all hours of the day and cry about my shitty boyfriend. And yeah, he was just a really good friend. And then we got drunk one night and ended up having sex in my backyard and all. I 

[00:29:12] Etienne: Just like on the grass, like what?

[00:29:14] Heidi: the grass. The grass, and. Oh my God. We were right next to my mom's window for some reason. I don't know why we picked that spot, but, we both got just bit up by bug bites, but yeah, it totally ruined, like, immediately ruined

[00:29:29] Etienne: Oh 

[00:29:30] Heidi: Like we couldn't go back. We, yeah.

[00:29:33] Etienne: Oh,

[00:29:34] Heidi: Yeah. So,

[00:29:35] Etienne: but

[00:29:36] Jane: why didn't you just date then?

[00:29:37] Etienne: oh,

[00:29:38] Heidi: Well, his mom was my mom's boss. So there was always this tension between us. 'cause , his mom was like, absolutely not. You guys are never dating. And we all had crushes on him 'cause he was the lifeguard at the pool and

[00:29:55] Etienne: Hmm.

[00:29:56] Heidi: yeah. So yeah, we were just friends for years and years. And then, yep. And that happened. And it was definitely like a, when Harry met Sally, like, you know, just. I can't go back, so

[00:30:11] Etienne: well, is it just me or does it seem like as adults though, like.. It seems it's harder to have just straight male friends when you're a woman or vice versa,

[00:30:23] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:24] Etienne: Have you made any male friends that are just friends like that you consider just friends as an adult person? Oh, you have, oh wait, Jane, that doesn't count though. 'Cause you're married that

[00:30:35] Heidi: That I have. Yeah.

[00:30:36] Etienne: so nobody's ever, no. If you're married, then you're happily married as you are. Nobody's looking at you and going. Ah, maybe she'll, you know, be available one day, and I'll be there to get her, so then men might be looking at you as just a straight friend. So as soon as they know that you, you can only be friends, and that's a whole different story. You know what I mean? I don't know. I've tried, I did have a few friends.

[00:30:59] Jane: like in case of

[00:31:00] Etienne: Yeah, exactly. So I did have a few male friends that I considered just friends in my early mid twenties. But I think they always thought like, if I had made one little tiny yeah, come here, I'd be like, okay.

[00:31:16] Etienne: Like no problem breaking the friend code and going straight for sex. You know? So that, that to me, that just makes me feel like we're not really friends. Like I consider you a friend, my male friend here, but it, you're not looking at me as if I'm actually a friend. None of you really wanna have none of deep down you wanna have sex with me, you know?

[00:31:37] Heidi: Yep, that's very true.

[00:31:39] Jane: It is. I had somebody who I know that that was the scenario that they were holding a candle for many years

[00:31:45] Etienne: Holding a candle

[00:31:46] Jane: in the background.

[00:31:47] Etienne: Oh.

[00:31:48] Jane: Yeah. And then they confessed that and. It did destroy the friendship for a couple of years, but then we recovered and now we're all friends because he was the person who introduced me to my husband.

[00:32:02] Etienne: Oh,

[00:32:03] Jane: He's still one of my best friends. But we just had some awkward, he calls it, the great rift

[00:32:08] Etienne: The great rift

[00:32:09] Jane: we could joke, we, we could joke about it now 'cause it's been, 25 years ago that happens, but we were able to. Reunite. And he came to our wedding and he was happy to see us, 'cause I didn't see him for three years. And then I saw him at our wedding because other people in the friend group were like, all right, that's enough because we have to bury this hatchet. But his confession did make it really awkward because at that point.

[00:32:35] Jane: He confessed because Brendan and I had both told him separately that we had very deep feelings for each other, and he was thinking that I was just gonna date my husband as a rebound from the long-term relationship I was in prior, and that he was just gonna wait in the wings. And after I had my rebound, then he was gonna make his move.

[00:32:54] Etienne: Oh. 

[00:32:54] Jane: And when he saw that it wasn't gonna be a rebound, he was like, no, this wasn't the plan. And I was like, what whatcha

[00:33:00] Etienne: Is that what he said? This wasn't the plan. Huh? He is probably drunk when he said that. Huh?

[00:33:07] Jane: um, no,

[00:33:08] Etienne: Oh, he was sober. Holy cow.

[00:33:12] Jane: No. We might have smoked a joint 'cause back then there was a lot of that. And honestly it was so often that I can't remember if I was high or not when that happened because, but probably. But it was terrible and I felt horrible because he's thinking the whole time, like I'm gonna just hang out in the background.

[00:33:31] Heidi: Because I'm sure when did you meet him? Did So he was a friend throughout the whole time you were with your, that other boyfriend. Right. And that was years.

[00:33:39] Jane: For several years

[00:33:40] Heidi: he was, waiting all those years, and then he is like, oh crap, now it's this.

[00:33:47] Etienne: Oh. 

[00:33:47] Heidi: She'll get through the rebound

[00:33:49] Heidi: and I'll have my chance

[00:33:49] Jane: five years he was thinking like, maybe, maybe,

[00:33:53] Heidi: Oh.

[00:33:53] Jane: and I was devastated for him, but I just could never look at him. I'm like, dude, you're like my brother. And I know that's like a knife in your heart right now, but you need to know that. I'm so sorry. I had no idea.

[00:34:07] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:07] Jane: I was like, I knew that you were attracted to me at first, but then you met my boyfriend and we all hung out. And then he dated, periodically. And then I broke up with that long-term boyfriend and now I'm dating your friend. And now you're telling me the friend that I asked you, could I have his number, the friend you introduced me to. Anyway, so that was, he wanted to move from the friend zone into friends with benefits slash I don't know my long-term partner, but I was like, that's not happening.

[00:34:39] Jane: But, then we recovered so you can, but we never kissed, nothing ever happened between him and me. But yeah, there've been friends that I wanted to hook up with and then deliberately did not because I did not wanna ruin it. There's a couple of them from high school and I'm glad because I'm still friends with 'em now. So now it's like a joke. And one of them was my neighbor for years.

[00:35:02] Jane: We both, at one point when we were younger, we played together like in middle school. He thought that I was ugly and I thought he was ugly too. And then,

[00:35:12] Etienne: What

[00:35:13] Jane: and then in,

[00:35:14] Etienne: Before you all blossomed.

[00:35:17] Jane: Yeah, it was before I got braces. It was before he solved his acne problem. That was pretty serious. And, but we hung out all the time just as friends.

[00:35:26] Jane: And then just, there were a couple of nights in high school where it was just, you know, you're just like hanging out in the neighborhood with like a couple of us that were all friends and then slowly people go home and now it's just you and that other person. And we're just hanging out on my deck talking about our future plans and it's a starry night, and we're looking at each other like I could totally kiss Darren right now. And I know he was thinking it too, but we didn't. And I'm glad that we like literally the girl and boy next door.  'Cause we were neighbors from fifth grade through 12th grade. But thank God, 'cause that'd be weird. That'd be weird. Now, there's a couple of times that that happened and one of them has actually happened. It was my now brother-in-law. So I'm glad that didn't happen.

[00:36:10] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:36:10] Etienne: Oh my God.

[00:36:12] Jane: that would've been freaking weird.

[00:36:14] Etienne: Strange.

[00:36:16] Jane: Like we were about to kiss, we were leaning in and somebody came and interrupted us. We were like on a couch in a corner of a basement at a party and someone came out and be like, Hey guys.

[00:36:25] Jane: And we were like, ah. And then, never picked up where we left off and then he met my sister and that was the end of that. Yeah.

[00:36:35] Heidi: Priceless

[00:36:36] Etienne: Dang. Oh my God. That's impressive. Thank God that didn't happen. I mean, if it had just been a kiss, that's one thing. But yeah, if it'd gone beyond that, that would've been really bad. I do have a really, awesome friend with benefit that I had. The one that sticks out above all the others that I had during, I don't even know how many I had during my two years of fun.

[00:36:59] Etienne: But, he was 18 years old and a citadel freshman. Yeah. Yeah. He was a freshman at the Citadel, so he had to wear his little uniform all the time. It made of wool. Had to wear it in the heat in Charleston. Had to wear it all the way in the car to my house because I had to go pick him up. He didn't have a car.

[00:37:25] Etienne: I had to go pick him up from the Citadel and drive him all the way back to my house when I wanted to spend time with him. And he was really attentive and wanted to learn anything I was willing to teach him. He was wide open. There was nothing he said no to actually, um, because, uh, he was asking me, 'cause he had a roommate.

[00:37:46] Etienne: He was forced to have a roommate at Citadel. He and his roommate did not have an older 'cause at the time I was 43 or 44 years old when he was 18. And, his roommate was like, oh, I wanna, does she have a friend? Like he wanted, he wanted somebody to have a friend with benefit with, you know?

[00:38:06] Heidi: he wanted to get some training.

[00:38:07] Etienne: Yeah. And I was living with Daisy and I'm like, Daisy is not interested in younger men, so sorry that's not gonna work out for your friends. But my wheels started turning and I was like, Hmm, I wonder if you'd be interested in a threesome. Because I went to England like the summer before, and I had, oh my God. I'd asked every man that I hooked up with in England, like every single one. Hey, you have a friend that, or do you have anybody that you know would go in like threesome with me, you and somebody else? Every single time it was, nope. Or my best friend would, but he's in Ibiza or, he has a girlfriend. She wouldn't be okay with that.

[00:38:48] Etienne: They always wanna do it with their best friend. And it took me a while to figure out what it was, why, why that was the case. And I finally figured it out. They trust their best friends not to touch them in a sexual way. So they know they can have a male, male, female threesome, and it's safe. Nothing weird's gonna happen to them.

[00:39:08] Etienne: So when you bring in like a stranger that they don't know into the mix, that's where things can get awkward for them. But I I just recently had a date. With a man who was married, but he had an open relationship and I did have sex with him, even though it wasn't great, but it was okay. And he told me stories about he and his wife and what they'd been up to, which were super hot.

[00:39:33] Etienne: The stories were hot. Yeah. I liked hearing his stories. He was in his late thirties, this guy, or mid thirties, I can't remember. So I asked my little citadel friend. I was like, Hey. Would you be interested in having a two male threesome with me? And he's like, well, I don't know, maybe.

[00:39:53] Etienne: I was like, okay. He's like, well, who are you thinking of doing this with? Who would the third person be? And I told him about the guy and I'm like, I haven't asked him. I have no idea. I just wanted to see what you were thinking. Turns out the guy was interested in coming and doing a threesome with us. So he did, he came over and I got the exact same performance from this guy that I got when he and I were alone, which is to say that he could not keep himself erect.

[00:40:21] Etienne: He could keep himself erect in my mouth. But not anywhere else. Didn't help. When I was trying, I was trying specifically to get a one sex act in, and it did not really happen. Not with two live men. My little citadel friend and I recreated it with a dildo after that guy left. The whole threesome, like when we were all naked together in my bedroom, probably only lasted tops 20 minutes. Because when I finally got the second man hard enough, I was like, okay, we gotta hurry up and get, like, we need to put this where I needed to go really, really quickly before something happens since I don't know how long this is gonna last.

[00:41:02] Etienne: And plus he had to get a condom on too, so I was like, condom and how's he gonna stay hard? I might have to put a condom and penis in my mouth like, but I'll do it if I have to. And. yeah, he got like an in maybe half an engine and boop lost all the blood flow and he is like, it's okay. He's like,

[00:41:21] Heidi: And he was 18.

[00:41:23] Etienne: the 18-year-old, no problem. It's the other guy. The guy in his thirties with the open marriage who could not, no, the 18-year-old as hard as a rock. He was fine. He

[00:41:31] Heidi: Gotcha. why was I thinking it was the Citadel guy in his roommate? So two 18 year

[00:41:37] Etienne: No, I said that was what got me thinking about asking the 18-year-old if he would be interested in a threesome, but he's like, who would the other guy be?

[00:41:47] Heidi: gotcha,

[00:41:47] Etienne: Not his roommate, obviously, I don't even know his roommate and what he told me about his roommate, there's no way I was gonna want this dude, no matter what he looked like to be no

[00:41:55] Heidi: Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[00:41:56] Etienne: Just super sloppy, not very clean. I was like, oh God. No. No. 'Cause my citadel guy was so clean, so clean. So the married guy ended up sitting in a chair in my room for a little while. Maybe five minutes watching us have sex. Me and the Citadel, he's like, I'll have a live sex show. You guys can just, you know, okay.

[00:42:19] Etienne: And then he put his clothes on. Out of the corner of my eye, seeing him put his clothes on and he's like, well, I'm just gonna go, seriously, he was only there in my house tops a half an hour from the time he walked into the door until he left. And he acted like, oh yeah, I need to go. It's like, really?

[00:42:35] Etienne: Because. This would've lasted this, I'm assuming you planned for this to last longer than 30 minutes. Like Yeah, it was kinda, it was very sad. So the only time I had an actual threesome, and it did not live up to the fantasies, I can tell you that. But it was still, I'm glad I had it. It definitely got me off of the obsession of wanting to have a two guy threesome. Yeah. Yeah. But that's it.

[00:43:01] Jane: was the tone when he left?

[00:43:03] Etienne: Oh, it was like he literally let himself out. He let himself out. 'cause we weren't getting dressed. We weren't stopping what we were doing. Like we were busy on the bed. And yeah, he's like, I'll just let myself out.

[00:43:13] Etienne: I'm like, okay. See you later. Never talked to him again.

[00:43:17] Heidi: Oh, you never talked to him again

[00:43:18] Etienne: No. Never talked to him again. No reason to. Like, he just, he knew he failed. It's fine. We don't need to talk about it. 

[00:43:24] Heidi: Oh my God

[00:43:26] Etienne: and my citadel. Friend. I lost him when he started dating somebody. Seriously. He is like, ah, I don't think I can see you anymore.

[00:43:34] Heidi: But you know what? You trained him.

[00:43:35] Etienne: Oh my God. He was freaking trained and he, he probably got that one girlfriend and they're probably married because like

[00:43:42] Heidi: yeah, yeah. Exactly.

[00:43:45] Etienne: This guy, he is 18 and this is what he could do. Oh my God. Yeah. It was the 42, 43-year-old trainer over here that got him that good

[00:43:57] Jane: You were his Mrs. Robinson. They still talk about you.

[00:43:59] Etienne: A hundred percent. Yeah, I wouldn't I would not doubt it.

[00:44:02] Etienne: Oh my God. Like, yeah, he actually did text me. Like I, he texted me when I was already, I was seeing somebody else like a few months after. I think things did not work out with that girl actually. 'cause he tried to get back in and I was like, yeah, no, no, I have somebody, sorry. And then I never saw him again.

[00:44:22] Etienne: But he wanted to be a doctor like his. I think it was like his grandfather he was pre-med at Citadel or biology major? I think it was biology major, because I don't think they had pre-med there, but

[00:44:34] Jane: Oh, he was majoring in

[00:44:35] Etienne: Oh yeah, he was,

[00:44:36] Jane: yeah.

[00:44:37] Etienne: he was getting a plus extra credit, like all the way a plus plus.

[00:44:44] Jane: Nice.

[00:44:45] Etienne: Oh my God. No, he knew exactly like, you tell him how to do something one way and he will do it that way.

[00:44:51] Etienne: You tell him. All right. No, you need to like, just pay attention to me and just mix it up a bit. I will. Yep. I will do that. Like literally, whatever you told him, he would do exactly that. He was insane. Totally worth driving him both ways

[00:45:06] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:45:07] Etienne: and the way back. So literally it was what? It's like 20 minutes one way in, two direct, like I had to take him, I had to bring him here and then I'd take him back.

[00:45:16] Etienne: We're talking, what is that, 80 minutes? For one sex session that I had to drive him in the car and then drive myself for part of it. But yeah, it was worth it. Worth it. I, yeah, I onw hundred percent advise anybody who wants a friend benefit to, if they think it was low as high school.

[00:45:38] Etienne: Not high school, sorry, college. College, not high school, college. College. Yeah. As long as they're of age, they could be young. I was a young college student. I was 17 when I started college, so, uh, yeah, uh, of age college. The college guys are not looking for girlfriends. They are there to hang out with their friends, get drunk and have sex. Like it's the perfect situation I think.

[00:46:08] Jane: Oh my gosh, you're reminding me of like a reverse, friends with benefits thing with the age thing that they were two guys in their thirties who were waiting for me to turn legal. 'cause I was 17 when I started too.

[00:46:18] Etienne: Oh no.

[00:46:20] Jane: We were all English majors. One of them was 31, the other one was 33, and we were just in a study group together.

[00:46:29] Jane: And then we started going to raves together and I had fun with them. We were just friends. But then one of them invited me to his house out in the Hamptons. And it was his birthday weekend and there was supposed to be, I thought, a party. When I got there, it was just me.

[00:46:44] Etienne: Party of two. You and him.

[00:46:46] Jane: yeah.

[00:46:46] Heidi: Oh shit.

[00:46:48] Jane: We had, we had gone out to dinner and I thought that there were gonna be other people there and there was nobody there. And I was like, oh no. And then when we get back to his house, he has like a couple messages on his answering machine back when people did that. This is 1991 and he plays the answering machine.

[00:47:07] Jane: And actually just, sorry, this was the summer of 1992 'cause I had turned, I was 18. This is very important to the story. So I then he hits play on his answering machine, and it's the other guy, David, who was making jokes like, well, you, you beat me to the punch and I wish you the best of luck as she's legal and go for it, and blah, blah, blah.

[00:47:29] Jane: And I can't believe you got her out there. And I hope you had fun. And I'm standing there in his kitchen, like the fuck, so I was like, there's no party for your birthday is there? And he was just like, no. And I didn't have a car at the time. He had picked me up at where I was living at the time.

[00:47:48] Jane: And so I had no way of getting back. There's no Uber back then. But I just told him, I was like, just letting you know we're not having sex just. Putting that out there right now. And so he is like, okay. So he proceeded to just drink himself into oblivion and it was like a really awkward drive home. Then the next day

[00:48:07] Etienne: Oh my God.

[00:48:08] Jane: I was like, I will be sleeping in your guest room. So I was very firm but he was thinking friends with benefits and I was like, no,

[00:48:15] Etienne: So, wait, was this actually his house or is this like his family's house?

[00:48:20] Jane: no, it was his house. He had his own pool business and cleaning the pools of very famous people, like Stevie Nicks was one of his clients.

[00:48:27] Jane: I just remember being very impressed by that. 'cause I love Fleetwood Mac, but he was also just going to school for English because he loved literature and he was writing a book. He read parts of it to me. Once he got really drunk, he read a sex scene to me that was actually very poorly written, but the other parts of the book were pretty good.

[00:48:46] Etienne: Oh God.

[00:48:47] Jane: And, but we were in some of the same classes together then after that. So I then knew in that moment that both of these dudes that I thought were only interested in me as a friend because they were almost twice my age at the time. When I met them, I was 17. They were 31 and 33,

[00:49:02] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:03] Etienne: they're double your age practically. Yeah.

[00:49:06] Jane: but. Here's the thing though, after that and after I made myself very clear, I am not dating you. And I'm not dating you. And one of them looked just like a young Robert Redford. Like they were, they were good, they were good looking men. But I was just like, but ew, you're in your thirties. You know? I wasn't, I wasn't down for that at the time.

[00:49:22] Etienne: oh.

[00:49:23] Jane: I, yeah,

[00:49:25] Etienne: I'm like I'm sad for you. I was hoping I could vicariously be you for a minute and sleep with the young Robert Redford looking guy

[00:49:33] Jane: No, and my stepmom used to tell me all the time, he's so handsome. And I was just like, that's not gonna happen. I think she wanted it like, because she had a crush on Robert Redford, but no. Um, and in retrospect, my parents, 'cause I lived with my dad and stepmom for my first two years of college and they secretly had to have had conversations about like, what is happening with her, hanging out with these dudes. But I don't know. It was a different time, maybe they were okay with it and, just would go off and go to raves with these guys and then there was a larger friend group, but I will say even after that I set a boundary and we recovered.

[00:50:11] Jane: So they wanted it and I didn't. And then we were still friends and one of them I actually still talk to 'cause he is one of the smartest people I've ever met

[00:50:18] Etienne: How you make friends for life, Jane. Seriously.

[00:50:23] Jane: I mean, I don't like get to hang out with them, hang out with them, but, will still text each other or message each other on Facebook and that type of thing.

[00:50:32] Jane: And he's, like I said, an incredibly, incredibly smart person and i wish them all the best and I wish all of our friends with benefits or who wanted benefits and didn't get the benefits. All of them. all of them, we wish them the best. 

[00:50:47] Etienne: All of them, the ones who got the benefits, the one who didn't get the benefits. All of our friends, 

[00:50:55] Heidi: That's our show you've been listening to, the Women are Plotting. If you have a story you'd like to share or have any comments, we'd love to hear from you. Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com and of course you can find us on all the socials. Thanks, and until next time, be safe and be excellent to each other.