We Changed For Our Midlives, But F*ck These Hot Flashes

The bravest thing about midlife isn’t the leap. It’s admitting the life you’ve outgrown—and choosing the one that actually fits. We dig into the surge in “gray divorce,” the myths around the midlife crisis, and why so many of us are trading the familiar grind for a more honest path. The stories are personal: leaving long marriages with care, discovering the power of therapy, and finding new careers that honor the work we’ve done and the art we still want to make.

We go there on menopause—hot flashes, brain fog, and the mental haze that can make everything feel harder—and how hormone replacement therapy, used thoughtfully with a clinician, can turn the lights back on. That clarity changes relationships: boundaries sharpen, equality becomes nonnegotiable, and the mental load gets named. We talk about great sex decades in, dating with self-respect, and the joy of partnerships that celebrate growth rather than fear it. Reinvention doesn’t just happen at home; it shows up in community. From Meetup to TikTok, we share practical ways to build a tribe in a new city, repair old ties, and cultivate friendships that hold through grief and change.

If you’ve ever wondered whether it's too late to start over, publish your first novel, move states, or simply ask for better—this conversation is proof that the clock isn’t your enemy. Fear is. And everything you ever wanted might be on the other side of it. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs courage today, and leave a review to help more people find the show. Then tell us: what new beginning are you ready to claim?

Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com, and find us on all the socials. Be safe and be excellent to each other.

Chapters

• 0:00 New Beginnings Framed By Data
• 1:45 Late-Blooming Creators And Second Careers
• 5:01 Rethinking The “Midlife Crisis”
• 11:01 Jane Choosing Change Over Fear
• 13:46 Heidi's News Flash!
• 16:17 Heidi Making New Friends in Midlife
• 24:26 Hot Flash Hell
• 28:07 Etienne's Midlife Change
• 31:07 Desiring Equal Partnerships
• 37:49 Outgrowing Friends & Friends Who Change With Us
• 40:23 Making Friends as an Adult
• 42:08 Making ADHD Discoveries via TikTok
• 44:29 Talk to Friends/Therapists Before Making a Big Change

Transcript

[00:00:00] Etienne: Welcome listeners. This is The Women Are Plotting. I'm Etienne Rose Olivier and I'm here with my friends and co-hosts, Heidi Willis and Jane Gari.

[00:00:15] Etienne: Today's episode is New Beginnings in Midlife, and my interesting fact for today is that divorce is still more common among young people with roughly two thirds occurring among the under 50 crowd. But the change is nevertheless significant that the older crowd is having more divorces. So in 1990.

[00:00:37] Etienne: 8.7% of all divorces in the US occurred among adults, 50 and older. But by 2019, that percentage had grown to 36%. So they have gone up and I just thought since New Beginnings, we're really mostly talking about divorce in a way, I imagine, or probably change in relationship status. So that's why I gravitated towards a statistic this time.

[00:01:03] Etienne: But Jane, I think you have a fun fact or interesting fact for us today.

[00:01:08] Jane: I do, I actually find your fact very fascinating and I think that's probably because. As Gen X gets older and so many of our parents got divorced, we're just like, life is too short. Fuck it. Let's wrap this up and move on to the next chapter. But, I chose, because I am actually still married, been married for 20, something years. I'm bad at math. Um, it's 2025. We got married. 22. 22. No, we got married in, it is 2025 now. We got married in 2003, so 22 years. But I have changed careers later in life, so.

[00:01:44] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:01:45] Jane: I was a teacher for many years and then trying to strike out as a novelist later in life. So my fun facts are about famous authors that I love who did not get published until they were 50 or older, because I need that list in my life, otherwise I will give up.

[00:02:02] Jane: So, I did publish other books when I was younger, but now I'm trying to break out and it is a. Perseverance game folks. So if you're in that perseverance game, here's some inspo. All right, so here's the people who didn't get published till they were 50 or older. So Raymond Chandler, who came up on another conversation that we were having.

[00:02:24] Jane: 'cause we, a lot of us love his short stories. Richard Adams, who wrote Watership Down, which a lot of us probably had to read in school.

[00:02:32] Etienne: Hmm.

[00:02:32] Jane: Laura Engels Wilder.

[00:02:35] Heidi: Yep,

[00:02:36] Jane: Little House on the Prairie. It was after she was 50.

[00:02:38] Heidi: yep. Her daughter was an adult. I visited her house.

[00:02:43] Jane: I did not know that. She was older when she published though. And then Frank McCort didn't publish anything before Angela's Ashes. Daniel Defoe. Who? These like Robinson Crusoe fame

[00:02:54] Etienne: oh, nice.

[00:02:55] Jane: and Bram Stoker. I was like, what? All right.

[00:02:59] Jane: He published his first book when he was 50, but then Dracula, he was 56. So there's Hope. And then Delia Owens of where the Craw Crawdad Sing Fame, she had some nonfiction books that she wrote with her husband. And they were very successful.

[00:03:14] Jane: But where the Crawdad sings her first novel and she was 70,

[00:03:19] Heidi: Wow.

[00:03:19] Jane: I am not giving up

[00:03:21] Etienne: Yeah, I really don't. Yeah, I mean, I've already been thinking there's no like age limit, like, you know, and you're only gonna get better at your craft as you go along anyway,

[00:03:29] Heidi: exactly.

[00:03:30] Etienne: As long as you keep at it and you do it for you. So the wonderful byproduct would be. Hey, somebody says, where can I read your stuff?

[00:03:41] Etienne: And you actually don't say, I've given your email and send it to you like Jesus, sorry.

[00:03:48] Jane: But no, that's true and I think that I could, I write it for myself, but it only comes alive if someone is actually reading it. It's different from if you're making a beautiful. Piece of art, like, you know, a visual art, right? Because you can look at it and you enjoy it for yourself and it's coming alive for you.

[00:04:07] Jane: In that moment, I think that reading is different and if I write it for myself, I can never read it without. Being aware of what happens at the end. 'cause I did it, you know, I think it's a different art form and so I think it would be tragic to not get certain stories out of the world.

[00:04:27] Jane: Or like you said, Etienne, like, oh, let me just email this to you. That's not my fate. So that's my fun fact. Heidi, what's your fun fact?

[00:04:34] Heidi: So I went in the midlife crisis direction because I definitely had multiple things change in my life in midlife. So not just divorce, but, a move losing my mom, like it was blow up the lifetime. So with midlife crisis, it's often portrayed as very common, but actually it's relatively rare.

[00:05:01] Heidi: So with only 10 to 20% of adults reportedly going through it. So, the term was coined by Elliot Jocks in the 1960s, and while it's often associated with specific age ranges, it's more of an identity shift and a reevaluation of life rather than a strict chronological event.

[00:05:23] Heidi: So. You can have a midlife crisis at 30. It just depends like what's going on. So yeah, I've completely changed my look, my life, everything. I definitely went through what they would term a midlife crisis, but I don't feel like it was a crisis. It was more like a, yeah, let me be my true self, my real self and, and figure myself out and follow my dreams and passions and be happy. You don't have to be unhappy in life. You can start over. You can find love again. You can start a new career. You can move to a new place and have a whole new life. And it's scary to go through, but it can be done. And I love my life now, so. It was hard to go through, but I wouldn't change a thing.

[00:06:19] Jane: I love that. That really resonates with me because, I think that sometimes people get stuck with, you know, they're in a shitty relationship, but they're like, okay, but what's on the other side of this? The unknown is so scary that people would rather stay in a situation that's familiar, even if it's sucks, then break out and strike new ground and risk.

[00:06:42] Jane: What's on the other side. And Heidi actually bought me a mug from my birthday years ago, and it has a quote on it and I don't know who it's from. I'm not gonna go grab the mug now, but it says like everything you ever wanted is on the other side of fear.

[00:06:54] Heidi: Yep.

[00:06:55] Jane: And I feel like whenever I am really itching to do something, and I kind of take stock and I realize if the only thing is holding me back is just like fear of.

[00:07:09] Jane: Something, it's usually just un an uncertainty and it's, it is. And I said, okay, well I'm not, I can't let that be the reason why I don't do something. What am I afraid? Wild success. I'm afraid of wild success, is that what's,

[00:07:21] Heidi: Mm-hmm. And even if you fail at something, it's a lesson you learn and you keep going. You just learn your lesson. You're like, okay, well let me try it this way.

[00:07:31] Jane: I

[00:07:32] Heidi: You're not dying when you try something new. So.

[00:07:37] Etienne: I am so proud of you, Heidi, being courageous enough to make that change in your life, honestly. Yeah. I.

[00:07:44] Heidi: I show people pictures of me just from 2021 and they're like, that's not you. And I'm like, it's me. Yeah. It looks like a cousin, but it's totally me. I look totally different,

[00:07:58] Etienne: I bet you there's like an aura difference too. Like the actual energy that's probably coming off of you even in a picture is probably way different than, yeah.

[00:08:07] Heidi: Yep. So, yeah, it's kind of nuts to think back to how my life was just four years ago to now. Uh, yeah.

[00:08:17] Etienne: Wow.

[00:08:18] Heidi: Everything's changed everything, so,

[00:08:22] Etienne: Yeah, when I was little, I to think, you know, you'd first hear about midlife crises when you were a kid, or at least that's when I first heard about it. And you just think of the guy in his late thirties, early forties, getting the sports car and not getting divorced per se, but just getting the

[00:08:35] Heidi: Well, having affairs. Yeah. Having the affairs, sleeping with the younger

[00:08:40] Etienne: Or the secretary. Yeah.

[00:08:41] Heidi: or, yeah. Yeah. Where I feel like our generation, we are doing midlife in a way, I see people going back to school or changing careers or changing their home life, moving to a new place, changing up their friend groups and it's all about growth.

[00:09:00] Heidi: I feel like that's what I'm seeing anyway with our generation is it feels more like a growth and evolution of yourself versus. I don't know if I feel like previous generations it was more selfish motives. Like, I'm gonna buy all my toys, I'm gonna do everything for me, me, me.

[00:09:21] Heidi: And it's still like when you're changing yourself, it is still for you. But it's also that intention of doing better in the world, period. You know, just. Wanting to create more, wanting to, bring magic into the world for people and make a difference. So, I don't know. I think the flavor is different for sure.

[00:09:45] Heidi: Of midlife crisis.

[00:09:47] Etienne: Authentic, or maybe you did Jane. So yeah, I think that would be the difference, is that we're changing our lives to possibly be more authentic and for ourselves and how we are in the world versus yes, what we used to perceive midlife crises being when we were kids, you know, the whole selfish thing.

[00:10:05] Etienne: And usually men, I mean, I wouldn't think of women having midlife crises when I was a kid. It was just always, I would just think of men,

[00:10:12] Heidi: yeah.

[00:10:12] Etienne: but I could be totally wrong.

[00:10:15] Jane: I think that when women do, so this is what I've noticed from my fellow Gen X women is that sometimes if they're a mom and then the kids get older, and they either leave the house or they're pretty self-sufficient and they're on their own independent journey. And then that role is taken from you, a caretaker role, and you're kind of doing some self-evaluation.

[00:10:39] Jane: Or Heidi in your case, there's all this convergence of events of, with a relationship and something that forces serious self-reflection. And then you're like, wait a second. There's a reset that happens and instead of it just being like, okay, I wanna have some kind of lost weekend, or, play with all the toys, it is a change of directions.

[00:11:01] Jane: And I mean, like for me, teaching was a, I was an English teacher for many years and it was a huge part of my identity, but it got more difficult to do that and then still be a mom. And this happened to me, when I was in my early forties where I was like, I can't do this anymore.

[00:11:20] Jane: Like it felt wrong. I felt like I was half-assing my entire life if I continued on that trajectory. But yet it was such a huge part of my identity that I was afraid. What if I do something else? Who will I be then?

[00:11:31] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:32] Jane: I said, okay, well that's ridiculous 'cause I'm still me. But I had to do some soul searching and say, okay, well I've always wanted to be a writer.

[00:11:43] Jane: I've been telling all these students for years to follow their dreams. Well, maybe it's time for me to figure this out and figure out a way that I could still keep the lights on in my house and write. Turns out people will pay you well to do it. It may not always be something you love writing, but you're still.

[00:11:59] Jane: Honing your craft and you're still getting better at it, even if you're doing it in a corporate environment. But it was very difficult for me at first, but now, what you were saying, Heidi really resonated with me, was just looking to be true to myself. And then find ways at the same time to give back to society in ways that are meaningful to me.

[00:12:17] Jane: And then also I think this is something I see not just for myself, but in other women around me, including the two of you, is that, making time for exercise and meditation and creativity. And I feel like, and I think you had said this earlier, Heidi, like it's almost getting back to my true self.

[00:12:37] Jane: So it kind of makes me think about how, what I've heard about menopause, as I sit here and stand on the precipice of menopause that you're going through puberty and reverse, hormonally and everything else, but it feels like a homecoming. I feel like I'm returning to everything that was is the most important to me and that.

[00:12:54] Jane: Has not changed since I was a teenager. So I'm like, oh, this is kind of cool. As my daughter is going through her teenagehood. I feel like I was going through a renewed trajectory of reconnecting with all of those things that were most important to me then, and it just all kind of converged.

[00:13:14] Jane: So my midlife crises was not a, it was not a crisis. It was like a homecoming.

[00:13:19] Heidi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're homecoming to yourself and figuring out, okay, I've had these people project things onto me, their expectations for me, and. Did I want any of that? No. It's a self-evaluation. And who am I and what do I really want? And, what do I love to do and what matters to me?

[00:13:46] Heidi: Which, oh, by the way, I'm happy to report. I am in menopause. I have the test results to back it

[00:13:53] Etienne: What

[00:13:55] Jane: News flash. Congratulations.

[00:13:59] Heidi: Finally, 42 years later.

[00:14:03] Jane: Celebrated. This should be celebrated. We should. There

[00:14:05] Etienne: should be menopause.

[00:14:07] Heidi: I need to have a menopause party that needs to be a thing. Ladies, we have baby showers, we have wedding showers, bridal showers and birthday parties and retirement parties. Like there needs to be menopause parties 'cause. Holy hell. We survived bleeding every month

[00:14:24] Etienne: so wait, Heidi, are you considering doing the replacement? The hormone replacement therapy.

[00:14:29] Heidi: Oh yeah. Yeah. I've got the patches. She's even prescribing me some low dose testosterone because that will help out with brain fog and everything

[00:14:39] Etienne: And

[00:14:39] Heidi: sorry to get.

[00:14:43] Etienne: I mean, this is still part of a new beginning in midlife.

[00:14:45] Heidi: Yes, yes,

[00:14:47] Etienne: This is technically, I would think it falls under the category. Yeah.

[00:14:50] Heidi: I'm in my Corona era.

[00:14:52] Etienne: I actually just got more of my pellets put in today, which is weird. I'm still a little numb where she did it, so like, it's been a while.

[00:15:00] Etienne: Like why am I still numb, but I won't worry about it. Jesus.

[00:15:05] Heidi: I feel like I need to write like a Judy Bloom style book about menopause. You know, I.

[00:15:10] Etienne: good.

[00:15:12] Heidi: You know, because we have that first period book that I remember.

[00:15:17] Jane: Yeah. Are you there? God, it's me, Margaret.

[00:15:19] Heidi: yes, yes. I was like I know I saw the movie recently. But I remember that book affecting me so deeply. About getting your first period and now it's like, oh, I need to have,

[00:15:32] Etienne: there was,

[00:15:32] Heidi: something that, you know, is about going through menopause and sharing that with your girlfriends and,

[00:15:38] Etienne: There was like a little kid type style book, goodnight, night sweats, sitting on the, uh, sitting on the coffee table or semi guys, not a real coffee table, but at the hormone place. And I started flipping through. And so it's like in the style of Goodnight Moon, but it's goodnight night sweats.

[00:15:53] Etienne: And I only got a couple pages in before they called me away, so I had to put it down, but like

[00:15:57] Heidi: That's amazing. Yeah. So people are thinking of that kinda stuff, so yeah. Judy Blumesque.

[00:16:03] Etienne: more of it.

[00:16:04] Heidi: Are you there? God, it's Margie and I'm a little pissed.

[00:16:08] Etienne: I need my personal fan so.

[00:16:12] Heidi: I've been bleeding for 40 years now. Let make this stop.

[00:16:17] Etienne: Oh my gosh. So wait, Heidi, when you actually, like part of your new beginning, you did move from one state to another, and I know you were returning to your home state, right? That was your,

[00:16:28] Heidi: Yes.

[00:16:29] Etienne: so did you have to, did you pick up old friend groups or did you have to make new friends or?

[00:16:34] Heidi: I had to make new friends. I didn't resonate with any of the high school friends I left behind that I would see periodically. So new friends, totally new friends. I did meetup to find different friends and, I don't know, I just started putting myself out there and I've collected some really, really, I even met a friend through TikTok of all things, and that one friendship has led to so many different friendships.

[00:17:02] Heidi: Led to dating, I dated a guy that I met through her. And then a whole new, a really great friend group came from that. This friend group and I, we don't talk to that guy at all, but we're just so thankful that he led to us all finding each other. They've become really important friends and helped me so much through all these transitions.

[00:17:24] Heidi: So very grateful. And yeah, I've just been collecting really, really. Good people. My tribe. I'm definitely finding my tribe. 'cause I don't feel like, since Jane and you, I haven't really resonated with too many people, between South Carolina and here. So I kind of went several years without really having anybody that I connected with.

[00:17:49] Etienne: Hmm.

[00:17:50] Heidi: So it was kind of lonely, especially Alabama was super lonely. Um,

[00:17:55] Etienne: it's always been hard for me to imagine you connecting with a lot of people in Alabama. I have to say. I don't have to say I don't, not anything really bad about Alabama. Just, I could just imagine the majority of the people being a certain way and that's not how I see you.

[00:18:09] Etienne: So like.

[00:18:10] Heidi: Yeah, everywhere I went, their first question was, what's your football team and where do you go to church? And I didn't have an answer. I know, I don't go to church and I don't care about football, so

[00:18:25] Etienne: Oh

[00:18:25] Heidi: guess we're not gonna be friends.

[00:18:27] Etienne: wow.

[00:18:29] Heidi: That was the question asked so many different times by different people.

[00:18:33] Heidi: It was just the go-to question that I got, and so I couldn't relate. I couldn't relate to people there. And then even getting back to Iowa, it took me a while to.

[00:18:41] Etienne: Yeah. So yeah, you just put out there the focus of Alabama would be football and church. So what would you say the main focus would be in Iowa? Not in your friend group, but just in general. People in general.

[00:18:53] Heidi: In general? Well, I've got, I don't know. I've been able to really collect some eclectic people. I've got spiritual friends, Sound Bath friends, witchy friends, my psychedelic friends, music friends, creative friends, like

[00:19:07] Etienne: How are you meeting these people in Iowa? Like this is, I didn't, I wouldn't imagine that

[00:19:11] Heidi: It has been a magical journey. Seriously. And then when I went on my eight month nomadic journey, I collected friends along the way there, and that's who I saw this past weekend in Texas was some friends I made just randomly in New Orleans.

[00:19:27] Etienne: Oh my God.

[00:19:28] Heidi: And they've become incredible friends that I will have for life.

[00:19:32] Etienne: Hmm.

[00:19:33] Heidi: We just, we, our souls connected. So I'm incredibly grateful with the journey I've had the last couple years and finding my tribe, people that get me and I get them and, yeah, I feel so much more creative. My mental health has gotten so much better. I'm even getting closer with my sister.

[00:19:55] Heidi: We were kind of estranged or didn't have a really close relationship for many years. And then after my mom died, we started talking about our different experiences and we both kind of felt like the other one was the favorite and had special treatment and so it was interesting to see the other one's perspective.

[00:20:15] Heidi: And so we're kind of mending that relationship. That's been amazing. I'm getting closer with my stepdad and his new wife and yeah. It's just, it's been really good and getting out there and dating again and yeah,

[00:20:30] Etienne: Your life just seems so full to me. It just seems like you have like just a Yeah.

[00:20:35] Heidi: I had a guy say, oh, I think you're too busy to date me.

[00:20:40] Etienne: What,

[00:20:41] Heidi: I need someone who's, and I'm

[00:20:42] Etienne: what does he need somebody focus on him like That's a.

[00:20:46] Heidi: I guess, yeah. Yeah. So I'm like, yeah, I'm definitely not for you then because I have a life

[00:20:51] Jane: Yeah, that's given make my making a sandwich vibe. So you

[00:20:54] Heidi: Yeah, yeah. I, I need you at, I need you at my beck and call and Yeah. Need you available nightly for whatever. And no, I have so many friends now, a guy is gonna have to somehow fit into my life now 'cause it is full.

[00:21:11] Etienne: Well, it should be. He has his own life and you have your life and then sometimes you come together and you, you know. Wouldn't that be perfect?

[00:21:19] Heidi: Yes, yes.

[00:21:21] Jane: I feel compelled to give a little bit of backstory here just to kind of, to bolster just how brave Heidi's being here is that you were married for a long time.

[00:21:32] Heidi: yeah,

[00:21:33] Jane: and realized that it was not good for you and to pivot more than 20 years deep into that and strike out and be like, no, I'm gonna actually be true to myself.

[00:21:43] Jane: Because you felt like you were denying part of yourself for so long that all of these things that you're saying and traveling on your own, around the country on this find yourself journey is hard to do and I am super proud of you.

[00:21:59] Heidi: Yeah, and I've collected stories along the way that are eventually gonna make it into screenplays or books. And I'm gonna write about this. I took so many journals and notes along my way that I'm gonna eventually go back through and, 'cause I had so many profound insights during those travel months.

[00:22:18] Heidi: And so I'm eventually gonna sit down and write about it. 'cause I don't know, maybe it could help somebody going through similar things. So,

[00:22:27] Etienne: How many months were you traveling for?

[00:22:29] Heidi: um, eight months,

[00:22:30] Etienne: Oof. Wow.

[00:22:31] Heidi: well, I thought I was moving to California and then everything was really bleak out there and,

[00:22:36] Etienne: It's expensive out there.

[00:22:37] Heidi: It's expensive. And I thought, well, I figured out how to do this cheaply through this vacation club.

[00:22:45] Heidi: It's cheaper than rent at the moment, so why not let me just keep doing this and see how long I can keep doing it. I made it eight months and then finally when I crossed into Iowa and coming home came on the radio and Dorothy image of her clacking her shoes and saying There's no place like home. All these home references just came flooding into me and I was like, oh, Iowa, this is where I need to be, at least for now. And I need to heal my relationship with Iowa because a lot of trauma happened in Iowa and I had been running from it since I was 18, and I finally figured out, oh no, I was kind of magical.

[00:23:24] Heidi: Like I had a magical childhood here. There were some really cool things that happened. And so just remembering that and thinking, okay, yeah, I need to repair my relationship with the state 'cause this is a pretty cool state and I need to explore it and yeah. Find my people here and start a real life here.

[00:23:45] Heidi: Not make it temporary or you know, it, I mean, it might be temporary, I don't know, but as of now, I'm making a home here. I'm making a life here. And it feels pretty good. So that's when I stopped the traveling and I was like, okay, maybe I should get an apartment now, get back into with a doctor and get my health checked out and yeah, stop traveling, start, getting mail again and.

[00:24:16] Etienne: Yeah, just wait till you get those hormones in you. Or when the hormones actually kick in, you're gonna be like, woo hoo. I don't know how long you've been on 'em, but yeah. I felt a difference in like a week, I think.

[00:24:26] Heidi: I haven't started, I was gonna put the first patch on today and I forgot. I was just so busy today, so, I'm like, oh my God, I gotta get this patch on me because I know I'm gonna feel so much better. Like I know I am because I've been, yeah, the hot flashes have been insane.

[00:24:42] Etienne: geez. Yeah, did you know what they are? Like? What causes the hot flashes?

[00:24:48] Heidi: No, I don't know the co I probably,

[00:24:50] Etienne: what I read was, yeah, it's like actually a surge of estrogen released and that's why you suddenly feel like that hot hotness. Yeah.

[00:24:58] Heidi: oh yeah. I've been waking up. Just pools of sweat, pools of sweat.

[00:25:03] Etienne: Yeah.

[00:25:03] Heidi: Just so much fun.

[00:25:06] Etienne: I luckily didn't. I think I've truly only had one hot flash, so I'm really glad that that was not a thing for me because, fuck, sorry. I mean, I had the mental and the incontinence issue, but dude, if I'd had those hot flashes on top of it, I don't know how any woman, I'm sorry. I used to watch one of my coworkers who's no longer a coworker, but she used to have hot flashes and you could just see her physically being uncomfortable and she was already on the heavier side.

[00:25:34] Etienne: So then having a hot flash on top of it, it was like, oh my Lord. She'd go grab one of our cold packs, like the instant cold packs and just put it on her neck and possibly under her like scrub top. Yeah.

[00:25:46] Heidi: Jane remembers doing that for me. I was having hot flashes at your place all the time. I didn't know they were hot flashes. 'cause I was early forties. I had no idea it started that early.

[00:25:56] Etienne: God.

[00:25:57] Heidi: So yeah, I just thought I had a heat problem or thermostat problem.

[00:26:02] Etienne: Yeah.

[00:26:02] Jane: Well, you would take a shower, she'd take a hot shower, and then afterwards it was just like she wanted to put her head in the freezer. And so I was just bringing her freezer packs to put, laying 'em across her shoulders and stuff. And she'd be like,

[00:26:15] Heidi: just profusely sweating, just constant sweating. Like I had a heater on

[00:26:20] Etienne: The women who don't get hormone replacement, how is this whole population of women just not moving to Alaska, like serious, just go somewhere cold. Just go outside. I'm having a hot flash, going outside, like,

[00:26:33] Jane: They just crank up the AC and um, you know. Their husbands are like, what is happening? Or their significant other, or whatever, but

[00:26:42] Etienne: super expensive.

[00:26:45] Heidi: I read an article, they were blaming 'cause there has been a spike in divorces with middle-aged women leaving their husbands and they're blaming it on menopause and they're saying that women are going crazy and blah, blah blah. And it's like, no, no, no, no.

[00:27:01] Etienne: We've just been able to like hold it together before that and now that we don't have the hormones helping us, we're just like, you know what? Fuck off. Like I am done.

[00:27:13] Heidi: Yeah, yeah. We've reached our limit now. 'Cause yeah, the medical establishment's not very helpful. There aren't a whole lot of studies out there on menopause, and so you just kind of feel like you're going into a blind half the time. You know, there's not

[00:27:27] Etienne: Well, if men were having menopause, there'd be studies, more studies,

[00:27:30] Heidi: Oh my God.

[00:27:31] Jane: So many

[00:27:32] Heidi: There would be.

[00:27:33] Heidi: There would. Yeah.

[00:27:35] Etienne: Instead, they just come up with words like hysteria, like they did back in what, the 18 hundreds and just whip out our uterus and stuff.

[00:27:42] Jane: I learned that etymology, I was like, you've got to be shitting me. I was like, this is ridiculous. But wait, so, Etty, you're very well versed in the new wave, I guess, of the menopausal literature, if you will, in the studies that have been done and you're educating us about, hey, you know, read this book and do this replacement.

[00:27:59] Jane: Like, is that a key part of. What you feel is your new beginning in midlife or is it something different?

[00:28:07] Etienne: yeah, I do think so because starting up on hormones for me kind of coincided with a change in my relationship status and I do think that I'm out there with the women who left people because possibly menopause did kind of trigger some things in me and go, you know what?

[00:28:26] Etienne: No, no is not okay. This is not, and as soon as the hormones came back into my body, I could slow down and take a check and evaluate and go, all right. So I know what I need now. I know what I want. Let's go get that. And if I can't, then at least I will be more true to myself. You know? I do think I'm much more authentic now, and I'm not in a hurry for anything.

[00:28:51] Etienne: I just wanna be me. And if something comes along fine. But the hormones and the replacements, I mean, I never would've guessed that this was what was gonna happen. Like I, I didn't see this happen with my mother. She'd had a hysterectomy, but I still think she might've had her ovaries, but she had a hysterectomy in her twenties.

[00:29:10] Etienne: So

[00:29:11] Heidi: Oh wow.

[00:29:12] Etienne: she was so lucky not to have her period for most of her life.

[00:29:19] Heidi: Yeah, my mom had a young, like in 35. I was a teenager when she had her hysterectomy, so it was like an instant menopause.

[00:29:28] Etienne: Yeah. 'cause they can leave the ovaries. They don't have to, you know? But yeah, it just depends. But I guess for your mom, they must have definitely taken the ovaries. If they'd taken my mom's ovaries, she would've been, I mean, she was already like a tornado of emotion and chaos. If they'd taken her ovaries, I think we would've had our first female, not first.

[00:29:49] Etienne: We would've had another female, serial killer on our hands.

[00:29:53] Heidi: Oh shit.

[00:29:54] Etienne: I know.

[00:29:55] Heidi: She would've been on a rampage, huh?

[00:29:56] Etienne: would only imagine. No, not me, her. I was like,

[00:29:59] Heidi: Yeah. Yeah. No, her,

[00:30:00] Etienne: I would've been like hiding or definitely on the run, a homeless teenage kid. Like

[00:30:05] Heidi: Oh

[00:30:06] Etienne: seriously and much better off. But yeah, I mean, I, I don't know how women, going through menopause, not getting hormone replacements, I can only imagine how you can actually stay in a relationship where things are not equal.

[00:30:22] Etienne: Because I think that is the bottom line is that we are still, still so many of us struggling to have relationships where it feels like we're equal, where we're sharing responsibilities. And how about sharing the mental burden? There's a mental burden that that's talked about, amongst women, I think, but not so much.

[00:30:42] Etienne: I think men are just like, I don't know what you're talking about. You don't have to think about that. It's like, yeah, we do. We have to anticipate. We have to plan. Somebody has to do it. Yeah. I think you just get sick of it. You're like, I've done this for so long. Now I just wanna worry about me.

[00:30:55] Etienne: How about let's just worry about like nobody else is worrying about me. I'm gonna worry about me and just me like, how about that? Just for a bit.

[00:31:06] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:31:07] Etienne: And if somebody wants to come along and they've already worried about themselves or taking care of themselves and I'm taking care of myself and we can come together and it can be a triangle of equality, then fine.

[00:31:19] Etienne: But I do not wanna be taking over somebody's life or being in charge of somebody else's life again, ever. I think.

[00:31:28] Heidi: Yeah, that's where I'm at too. Like want an equal partnership and mutual respect and friendship. I mean, I was friends with my ex, relatively speaking, like it was a decent relationship, you know, like I wasn't being beaten. It, you know, it wasn't abusive or anything like that.

[00:31:48] Heidi: Like, I'm still good friends with my ex, he's a guy. I'm happy that he's found someone and he is engaged. Like I,

[00:31:55] Etienne: Oh, I didn't know that. What?

[00:31:57] Heidi: Yeah, he is engaged. Yeah. Yeah. I'm thrilled. She treats my daughter like her own daughter and that makes me so happy. So everybody's thriving. After the divorce, everybody started thriving, so it was like the best thing it was painful to go through for all of us, but I think in the long run, we're all having much better lives now.

[00:32:20] Heidi: So, if you're on the fence, Once you get through the bad parts, a lot of times, if everybody's miserable, like, if you're fighting every day, the kids aren't happy, the kids are not happy. They're in a stressful environment. And if you can separate amicably and, still have love there between everybody, and move on and find a new life, it can work out for everybody. And so yeah, I'm grateful how it's all worked out. I'm looking forward to finding my person now, but, I'm in no hurry. Like you said though, I wanna do it right this time.

[00:33:01] Etienne: Yeah. And the kid part, I mean, like me growing up, I remember, my adopted father and my mother, they were married 11 years, I think, and for at least half of that was so fighting and fist in walls and that sort of business. I mean he never touched her physically, but the yelling and the screaming at each other was intense.

[00:33:22] Etienne: There were some nights we didn't get dinner. Not a big deal. We weren't gonna starve, but I can't tell you how many times they would start a fight with us in the room and I would be standing behind my dad and making eye contact with my mother and just be like, leave him. Like, why are we not doing this?

[00:33:38] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:33:38] Etienne: What is happening? Anything is better than this.

[00:33:41] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:33:43] Etienne: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:44] Heidi: Yeah. The people who think marriage is for life, I don't, I don't think so. Sometimes you outgrow each other and you need to grow with someone else, and have different life experience with someone else. And it's okay. It doesn't mean you're a failure if your marriage doesn't work out.

[00:34:02] Etienne: Yeah. I mean there are some species now that mate for life, and I really don't think humans

[00:34:06] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:07] Etienne: uh, are not at all in that category. I'm sorry.

[00:34:10] Heidi: We lived too long to mate for life. I mean, it's great if you can find your mate and have a solid marriage and love and everything else till death. That's awesome.

[00:34:22] Etienne: Yeah, let's go back to times where we only live to 35

[00:34:24] Heidi: but I don't, I.

[00:34:25] Etienne: and then we can meet for life. It's fine.

[00:34:27] Heidi: I just know so many people that are married, they're going on 30, 40 years and they are miserable and they can't even stand to look at each other, but they're staying together because of religion or the kids or whatever, and it's sad.

[00:34:41] Heidi: It's like you don't have to live like that. You don't,

[00:34:45] Jane: I think that that comes back to what we were saying earlier about fear. Like people are thinking, okay, this is

[00:34:51] Heidi: This is the devil I know.

[00:34:52] Jane: right, so I'm going to stay here and then, and people who stay together. For the kids, it's like, what are you teaching? What are you teaching them? You're teaching them

[00:35:01] Etienne: Be miserable

[00:35:01] Jane: bad patterns that they're going to then repeat subconsciously when they go to try to pair bond and they're gonna say, okay, well this is what I'm used to and that's how that stuff gets perpetuated.

[00:35:15] Jane: I think that our generation grew up around people starting to concerns around dysfunction in new ways and. Even though our parents' generation, they were the me generation and there was the counterculture and there was a lot of experimentation and being free to be individual and second wave feminism and all of that.

[00:35:38] Jane: But, but there was still a lot of, at the end of the day being pigeonholed in certain traditional roles and if you found yourself unhappy in it. It felt like failure. And so you're just like, all right, I'm just gonna stick this out. And there was a lot of denial, a lot of just trudge forward, this is just life.

[00:36:00] Jane: This is just how it is. And it's like, it does not have to be like that. And I'm very hyper aware of how lucky that I am, that I do have, you know, I married a cool dude and he's my friend

[00:36:12] Heidi: I think you guys are gonna, you guys are gonna be, yeah, I

[00:36:16] Jane: we're gonna make it.

[00:36:17] Heidi: Yeah, I think you, I think you found a good one to be, I mean, we're not gonna talk about what you told us earlier, but holy

[00:36:26] Etienne: Yeah. I am fucking jealous.

[00:36:27] Heidi: I wanna find that for

[00:36:29] Etienne: Sorry, Jane.

[00:36:30] Jane: The,

[00:36:31] Etienne: You're so lucky. So lucky.

[00:36:32] Heidi: so lucky.

[00:36:33] Jane: all I'll say for, for the

[00:36:35] Heidi: in love with her, madly in love with her husband.

[00:36:38] Heidi: He's a cool guy. You guys are best friends. Like, I, I love it.

[00:36:41] Jane: And there's great sex. We could just say that he, he told me that I was allowed to say that.

[00:36:46] Etienne: Oh, you're allowed to say that. Okay.

[00:36:47] Jane: I'm allowed to say great sex. He's proud of it. Are you kidding me? He's proud of it.

[00:36:51] Etienne: He should be.

[00:36:52] Jane: Yeah. He's like, he's studying something. I don't know, but it's just,

[00:36:57] Heidi: It's possible to have good sex even 25 years, 26 years on of, of relationship.

[00:37:03] Jane: He knows all the buttons to press now because

[00:37:06] Etienne: And he cares about finding new ways to press the buttons, so

[00:37:09] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:37:09] Jane: Correct. So that's the thing. If you can find somebody that you can evolve with and respect each other's evolutions in their own individual path as well as a path that you can be on together and not be threatened by anybody's changes. And you could say, oh, you learned something new.

[00:37:29] Jane: This is cool. You know, what are you bringing to the table? Now? Let's learn something new together. And. Have experiences together and feel comfortable letting somebody else still be an individual.

[00:37:42] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:43] Jane: It's like that's the goal, isn't it? I mean, but with any relationship, it doesn't necessarily have to be like your partnership.

[00:37:49] Jane: Like sometimes you can outgrow a friend too, and you were talking about Heidi when you came back to Iowa. You're like, oh my gosh, I have nothing in common with these people anymore. Like these are not my friends anymore. This isn't my tribe anymore. That can happen in any relationship, but then there's some that just are solid.

[00:38:04] Jane: I'm gonna actually see a friend from high school this weekend that I've consistently been friends with since 1987 and. We're still us and we're still jiving together. We're like, all right, yeah, this is the same shit we've been talking about our whole teenager hood and beyond.

[00:38:27] Jane: And that's awesome. But there's a lot of things that have changed about us, but we're still there and he's gotten divorced and then remarried and we both have had like all of these different changes, but have been supportive of. Each other, like throughout all of it.

[00:38:42] Jane: And I think that that's the best that you can ask for and then encourage each other and cheerlead each other through all of these midlife changes. Like, this shit isn't for sissies. Right. But I think that I really do hold onto, like, every time I drink out of that freaking coffee mug, I'm just like, I like, yes, everything you ever wanted is on the other side of fear.

[00:39:02] Jane: And I'm like, yes.

[00:39:03] Heidi: one holding yourself back. That's it.

[00:39:05] Etienne: Yeah, and it's only gonna be hard in the very beginning. I mean, as long as you're trying the hardest, I think you'll have to go as far as like mentally when you're changing your life is possibly six months max a year, to rebuild something to where you feel comfortable again.

[00:39:21] Etienne: And I'm not saying to have somebody else in your life, but just like your life, your friends, your work, where you live, all of that.

[00:39:28] Heidi: Well, no matter how long it takes. Because I feel like I'm still evolving and still discovering and still figuring stuff out. And it's been three years. So, it can take a while to get through all the stuff you need to get

[00:39:42] Etienne: Yeah, but the very, very hard part

[00:39:43] Heidi: but it's so

[00:39:44] Etienne: you know, the

[00:39:44] Heidi: but it's, oh, yeah,

[00:39:45] Etienne: like, you feel the most lonely, you feel like the most, do I regret what I did? Should I have not done that? You know, like that sort of thing, you know? I mean, there's some of us, like in my situation, it wasn't my choice.

[00:39:56] Etienne: So everything was whipped away from me at a moment's notice, and I felt very alone for a while. Um, it took me a bit there to make new friends. 'cause all the friends were like gone. I mean, I have you guys, but you don't live here. So yeah, local friends, I didn't really have, they were all part of our group, but they were his friends.

[00:40:15] Etienne: So like they're all poof, poof. Everything is gone. It's like, great. Uh, but yeah. It was so,

[00:40:23] Heidi: Yeah, and making friends as an adult is difficult. It's, yeah, there's no, 'cause when you're a kid and teenager or college student, like, you have the classes, like you're all put together and it's so easy to find friends and make friends or work, you got work friends or whatever.

[00:40:41] Heidi: But going to a whole new city and. It's difficult.

[00:40:47] Jane: That's right. You're suggestion about Meetup and I did that when I was a stay at home mom for a couple of years, and so then my friend group from work, I could still see them, but it was different. And I was the first one in my friend group to have kids, and it was weird, they were like, what do we do with this little thing hanging out?

[00:41:04] Jane: This is gonna put quite the damper on happy hour. You know, like that type of shit. So I did go on Meetup to find. Yeah, exactly. It was just like, pay no attention to the breastfeeding. But, it was very helpful to go on and find a stay at home mom group. And, I collected one cool friend from that era, and I.

[00:41:25] Jane: It's, they were friends for a season and a reason and then moved on. But it definitely helped. So if you're in a new place, folks meet up, they're not paying us, but you go on, you could put very specific things like, you know, people who like to read books about vampires who time travel, and then there's a group for them for that.

[00:41:44] Jane: There was a group for people who like brunch in your town. I'd definitely, did a lot of meetup groups, like for hiking and just different things just to be out there and meet other people. Yeah.

[00:41:56] Etienne: Yeah, we have a lot more resources now than we, yeah. Yeah.

[00:42:02] Heidi: For

[00:42:02] Etienne: The internet can provide

[00:42:04] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:05] Etienne: positive, positive elements in our lives.

[00:42:08] Heidi: Well, it's wild where you'll find people, like I said, I met somebody through TikTok. We found out, oh, you live in Iowa. I live in Iowa. Let's meet up. And that one friendship has led to so many other friendships. It's. Insane. And that's why when TikTok was about to go away, you guys don't use TikTok.

[00:42:27] Heidi: But I was devastated 'cause I was like, I discovered about my ADHD being a problem by finding ADHD TikTok because I had been diagnosed years ago, but. Because the first medicine that they tried to give me didn't work, and I was kind of functioning still. It wasn't affecting me too bad.

[00:42:49] Heidi: I just kind of never really looked into the symptoms or I just didn't think about it.

[00:42:56] Etienne: up with your own coping mechanism so that.

[00:42:58] Heidi: I guess because I didn't get diagnosed until in my thirties. And so, I think I had just kind of developed coping mechanisms, but going through perimenopause and menopause, the hormone levels can exasperate all the symptoms.

[00:43:14] Heidi: So finding these funny tiktoks on a DHD symptoms and me recognizing myself in them and going, holy crap. It's not a personality defect. I have something wrong with my brain and there's medication out there that can help me. And when I first got on Adderall and had that first day of feeling like a normal person, I cried.

[00:43:37] Heidi: 'cause I had suffered for so long and people around me thinking there's something wrong with her. What's wrong with her if she just, do this, this, and this differently, like. it just was a pill that I needed.

[00:43:52] Etienne: Oh

[00:43:54] Heidi: So yeah. So TikTok, I was gonna be devastated if that went away.

[00:43:59] Heidi: 'cause it was just so important to me.

[00:44:01] Etienne: yeah. You were

[00:44:02] Heidi: I, I don't use it all the time,

[00:44:03] Etienne: you were depressed for at least a day or two, right? Like you were in mourning for

[00:44:07] Heidi: I was in total morning crying. Just, yeah. I said, I've made really good friends through it and even TikTok, internet friends, I've got people that I converse with that aren't local. So yeah, there's many different ways to find friends, even TikTok. It's crazy.

[00:44:29] Jane: Well, it's a resource, right? And so I think that if there's like a lesson in all of this that we realize that whatever big change you're making at this point in life, talk to people about it. If you don't have people to talk to about it. Like

[00:44:47] Heidi: There's the internet

[00:44:48] Jane: the internet, that that can actually be help you proactively then find that tribe to then talk about these things and, and help you as you chart your new course.

[00:44:58] Jane: I think that.

[00:44:58] Etienne: Yeah, and we didn't even talk about it, but definitely consider going to see a therapist at least temporarily so you can get through the hard part. 'Cause I did do that for a while. When my ex-husband dropped his divorce bomb on me, I was devastated for like 24 hours or 40 hours maybe.

[00:45:14] Etienne: And then suddenly I was elated and I was like, Ooh, why am I so happy? This is scary. This is a frightening. So I immediately made an appointment with somebody that I'd never met before. So a therapist and told her enough of the story in one session that she was like, yeah, I think, you already had mourned the loss of your marriage a long time ago, and you subconsciously, I think, realize that you don't have to worry about somebody killing themselves anymore.

[00:45:40] Etienne: So you are like, you're happy. It's just you. You just take care of you like, oh God,

[00:45:46] Heidi: from the

[00:45:46] Etienne: free. Free from that. Just eternal. Like you might wake up next to a dead person one morning, like cloud is gone. Yeah. Yeah. So. It's always good to get another opinion, a professional opinion of how things are going, and make sure that you're doing the right things and staying positive and doing positive

[00:46:06] Etienne: things 

[00:46:07] Heidi: Very helpful

[00:46:08] Etienne: like don't go drown and just don't go diving into a bottle 

[00:46:11] Etienne: or something.

[00:46:11] Etienne: Like 

[00:46:12] Heidi: No, definitely

[00:46:13] Etienne: there's another way

[00:46:16] Jane: uh, 

[00:46:16] Heidi: Try out some psychedelics though, because that's been very helpful.

[00:46:20] Jane: responsibly like.

[00:46:21] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:46:22] Etienne: Yeah, 

[00:46:23] Jane: Yeah, with guidance, I think, um, there's all kinds of interventions

[00:46:27] Heidi: Mm-hmm. 

[00:46:28] Jane: help you in your midlife journey.

[00:46:31] Heidi: That's our show you've been listening to, the Women are Plotting. If you have a story you'd like to share or have any comments, we'd love to hear from you. Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com and of course you can find us on all the socials. Thanks, and until next time, be safe and be excellent to each other.