The Women Are Plotting
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Then welcome to The Women Are Plotting -- a new podcast that allows a peek into the unfiltered minds of three Gen X writers. Give us a listen. And if you like what you hear, tell your friends.
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The Women Are Plotting
Mind The Orgasm Gap
What if sex isn’t something we do, but a place we go together? We take that idea seriously and use it to reexamine the stubborn orgasm gap—how men climax more often in partnered sex, and what it actually takes for women to feel safe, aroused, and heard. From the lens of intimate justice to the very real numbers behind the disparity, we lay out how culture, porn scripts, and silence combine to make pleasure lopsided—and how education, trust, and honest language may flip the script.
We share candid stories of first orgasms, the role of headspace, and how tools like vibrators and specific media may help people learn their arousal patterns. But the heart of the conversation is relational: safety before strategy, curiosity before choreography. When partners ask specific questions—Where should I touch? Slower or firmer? Stay there?—and prioritize stimulation, pacing, and warm-up, the likelihood of mutual pleasure rises fast. We talk about why some women fake it, how to stay safe while advocating for yourself, and how women should consider debriefing so the next encounter gets better.
If you’ve ever wondered how to close the pleasure gap without turning intimacy into a checklist, this is your map. We offer sequencing tips like “ladies first” and a reminder that pleasure is learned, not luck. Join us as we challenge stale norms, trade performance for presence, and strive to design sex that’s generous, communicative, and genuinely shared. If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review telling us one rule you’re making non-negotiable.
Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com, and find us on all the socials. Be safe and be excellent to each other.
[00:00:00] Jane: Esther Perel, who is this amazing sex therapist, she described sex as not something that you do, but a place that you go with somebody else.
[00:00:10] Etienne: Yes.
[00:00:11] Jane: And I just find that to be such a beautiful description. So this gap is happening during mutual shared experiences. I think that looking at it from that frame of a place that you can then inhabit with somebody else safely, with trust then so many things are on the table and I think that's enough to close the gap and you can talk about it, show each other, experiment together, and then. You're off to the races, man.
[00:00:37] Etienne: Welcome listeners. This is The Women Are Plotting. I'm Etienne Rose Olivier and I'm here with my friends and co-hosts, Heidi Willis and Jane Gari.
[00:00:52] Etienne: On today's episode, we're gonna be talking about the orgasm gap. And my fun and or interesting fact for the day is regarding a professor at the University of Michigan named Sarah McClelland, and she is a professor of psychology and women's and gender studies. She coined the phrase intimate justice, and this term uses the framework of race, gender-based stereotypes and sexual stigma.
[00:01:20] Etienne: Asks what individuals feel they deserve regarding intimacy. So who is entitled to engage sexually? Who is entitled to enjoy, and who is the primary beneficiary? I learned about her in the book by Peggy Ornstein called Girls and Sex that was published back in 2016. so Heidi, I think you have our
[00:01:40] Heidi: So, but I'm so curious about what, who
[00:01:43] Etienne: Well, who do you think is the, I mean, you have to ask yourself that question, like, who is the primary beneficiary there? That's what you're supposed to do, is look at situations. Women, men, different. Like, you know, if you have a woman who might be sexually progressive, a man who's not, you can still ask those questions and it might be different answers than you would be expecting, but it's a personal question of like, who's the beneficiary each time you go into an intimate moment with somebody else, it can change every time too, I believe. I mean, it shouldn't, but I think it does.
[00:02:14] Heidi: Why can't you both be beneficiary?
[00:02:16] Etienne: Yeah. That would be the ultimate goal. That That, yes,
[00:02:22] Heidi: okay. So yeah, we're looking for mutual pleasure if possible, but equal Yes. Yeah. Huh? Okay. So my fun fact is the first reference of the word orgasm was in 1671 in the writings of physician George Thompson. And that was a noun, but it wasn't used as a verb until the 1970s,
[00:02:48] Etienne: Oh, in 16, what was that? 16. Dang.
[00:02:54] Heidi: That was the first reference of the word orgasm.
[00:02:57] Jane: I'm assuming that was an Oxford English dictionary entry 'cause they track in the Oxford English dictionary, when the first instance in English, when that word was used and in what context? That's so interesting. It wasn't used as a verb. So I'm geeking out about words over here, but like that it wasn't used as a verb for a long time and if I had $200 million just lying around, someone's like, you gotta bet it on whether or not they were talking about a male orgasm or a female orgasm in 1671. I'm gonna bet I'm putting it all on
[00:03:24] Etienne: Women
[00:03:25] Jane: orga. Maybe if it's opposite day and we're in sixth grade.
[00:03:32] Etienne: sorry.
[00:03:32] Jane: it, no, I was, that's, but see, we're laughing and that's sad because it should be like you said, Etienne in your fun fact, it's like we're trying to look for mutual pleasure. And then actually I was looking at what are the stats on the gap, right?
[00:03:50] Jane: And so I was looking at the most recent research I could find, and it was published in a journal called Sexual Medicine. A journal I was today year was old when I learned about it. But this was research that was published in 2024 in the Journal of Sexual Medicine, and this research revealed that across all ages, men of all sexual orientations reported higher orgasm rates during sex. Their rate was between 70 and 85%. But for women it's 46 to 58%. So those are the stats on the actual gap and yeah.
[00:04:28] Etienne: mean, that's basically a worse gap than our economic gap, right? I mean, that's way worse.
[00:04:34] Jane: So it's like instead of 77 cents on the dollar, it's like 40 orgasms on the, like what? That's a shitty rate of return.
[00:04:47] Etienne: Yes.
[00:04:48] Heidi: I've met people that have never had one, and I just,
[00:04:51] Jane: Whoa, whoa, whoa. What
[00:04:53] Heidi: Yeah,
[00:04:54] Etienne: who, who?
[00:04:54] Heidi: like, what?
[00:04:56] Etienne: people? Men. Right? You must be talking about men. Sorry, I'm gonna make a few more of those jokes. Oh, no. Come on. How old are they? More than one woman. Women, so
[00:05:08] Jane: Who, not even by themselves we're talking about.
[00:05:12] Etienne: never, never
[00:05:13] Heidi: Never, ever. I have a feeling they just couldn't get out of their heads. Maybe. I don't know.
[00:05:18] Jane: I was gonna, can you share something about it, like with
[00:05:20] Etienne: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:05:22] Jane: that they're not being compromised?
[00:05:23] Heidi: It's been a while since I've talked to anybody that said stuff like that.
[00:05:28] Etienne: Okay.
[00:05:29] Heidi: I'm thinking probably 20 years. I just remember being in shock. What? You've never had an orgasm? What?
[00:05:37] Etienne: I am really
[00:05:38] Heidi: I can't even imagine. Like, I just felt bad for them.
[00:05:41] Jane: Seriously, Etty's speechless right now. She's like,
[00:05:43] Etienne: I, I, I, I, yeah. I mean, I'm thinking about like, okay, if I had a woman that had never had an orgasm and I want to teach her the fastest way, the most assured way that she will definitely experience an orgasm, I'm thinking. Like, what kind of media turns you on and give her a magic wand.
[00:06:06] Etienne: That's it. She has to engage in the media, if that's written word or watching twilight or whatever it is. It could be something, you
[00:06:14] Heidi: Outlander.
[00:06:15] Etienne: Yeah.
[00:06:16] Jane: Oh my God.
[00:06:17] Etienne: And break out the magic wands. I don't see how it's not gonna happen. Or, oh gosh, what is it called? There's that crazy, vibrating machine that's like $1,500. Do you guys know what I'm talking about? Yeah. And it's a machine that sits on the ground and you sit on it.
[00:06:34] Heidi: You ride it.
[00:06:35] Etienne: Yes. Do you know what I'm talking about? I
[00:06:37] Heidi: I've heard of it. I think I have a friend that owns one and told me
[00:06:42] Jane: Wait. It's not a fuck machine. It
[00:06:43] Etienne: no, no, no, no, no. Not internal. It's literally like, you sit on it, it's a pony saddle or something.
[00:06:50] Jane: Wow.
[00:06:51] Etienne: Yeah, and has different levels of vibration, but this thing's like $1,500 or more. It's a lot. And I cannot think of the name of it right now. I'm gonna try to Google. You're trying to Google, aren't you? I know you are. But they do have a money back guarantee. So if you, uh,
[00:07:08] Heidi: If you can't come with this thing.
[00:07:13] Etienne: then There. This just popped into my head. There was an episode on Nip/Tuck. I thought that show was super sexy. Well, besides all the surgeries, but I thought that was cool too. Where there was a woman on the show who was involved with the sexier of the doctors on that show. And she had had, oh my God. Female circumcision. So she had no, yeah, the mutilation. So she'd had no clitoris
[00:07:37] Jane: Oh.
[00:07:38] Etienne: or no external clitoris and she'd never had an orgasm. Now that understandable, but in the episode I pretty sure he finds a way to help her get to one, so it does happen. I'm fairly certain. Did you find the name yet?
[00:07:52] Jane: A sybian
[00:07:53] Etienne: Yes, sybian.
[00:07:54] Jane: And I clicked on images, and then I quickly clicked off of it because our listeners don't know this, but when I record this from my location, I'm in an office with two huge windows that face my street.
[00:08:09] Etienne: Oh no.
[00:08:09] Jane: And I have this external monitor for looking at our podcast spreadsheets and fun logistical things. Right. So, and it's a pretty big screen and it kind of is at an angle. So my neighbors I saw just like walking.
[00:08:24] Etienne: No. Just now.
[00:08:26] Jane: Yeah. They didn't come this, this way though. So I think she forgot something went back. But I was just like, I was thinking. Oh my God. I'm looking at these women straddling this thing and she's gonna walk by my house and be like, what is Jane looking at? I'm just looking at women sitting in saddles.
[00:08:44] Etienne: is completely lost. It. She.
[00:08:46] Jane: Well, and you know what? And so what if I am looking at it? 'cause I
[00:08:48] Etienne: Yeah, you're married. You a Sybian.
[00:08:51] Jane: Do I really need to look at this at 8 25 at night and when we're recording this, it's broad daylight still, right? I'm like right in front of the window, no privacy, but yeah. But that looks pretty guaranteed.
[00:09:06] Etienne: yeah. Doesn't it? I've always wanted to try one.
[00:09:10] Jane: it, it looks it.
[00:09:11] Heidi: a lot of times these women probably are just so in their heads about it. 'cause that was me. I was in my head for the longest time and then finally got a boyfriend that I didn't really care about. And, I
[00:09:25] Etienne: That's all.
[00:09:25] Heidi: like.
[00:09:26] Etienne: Okay. I'm sorry.
[00:09:28] Heidi: I didn't care about how I was performing or, you know, am I
[00:09:32] Etienne: You're just focusing on you right.
[00:09:34] Heidi: I just stopped thinking and then it happened, and that was my first orgasm ever. And I'm like, oh, this is
[00:09:41] Etienne: That was your first orgasm ever.
[00:09:42] Heidi: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:44] Etienne: How
[00:09:44] Jane: like not even solo, like he.
[00:09:45] Heidi: Not even solo.
[00:09:47] Jane: So can I ask you, were you able to communicate to him like what you wanted or needed, or you just think because you didn't have any emotional attachment, you were just completely about focused on your own pleasure and were able to let go and just let it ride?
[00:09:59] Heidi: Yeah, just let go and yeah, and then it happened and I was like, oh, this will be happening from now on.
[00:10:08] Etienne: Now that I know, now that I
[00:10:09] Jane: gosh. See, I had so many friends tell me about it and I was like I definitely haven't felt what you're talking about, and I just thought, I don't know if it's gonna happen for me. So I actually assumed that it might happen when I had sex, not for the first time.
[00:10:27] Jane: I definitely had no. Delusions of grandeur, although my first time actually was very romantic and I did think I was in love with the guy at the time and there was like a preliminary bubble bath and then he lifted me out of the tub full of bubbles and laid me down on a bed in his sister's house where he lived.
[00:10:42] Jane: He was totally on the verge of being like a hobo, but he wasn't. But he was very romantic about that. And as much as he was very focused on me like it, that didn't happen, because he didn't do oral stuff.
[00:10:56] Heidi: Hmm.
[00:10:57] Jane: And so it didn't happen, and I didn't really know like how much I needed that, um, ahead of time. I don't need it like the entire time. But like is little warmup activity. But it could be at the main event, but I'm just saying it's nice if it's least to warm up, but I didn't myself.
[00:11:13] Jane: And then I was at my gynecologist's office. And, there was a book, I don't remember what the book was called, but it was just out there on the table in the waiting room and it was open and it was open to a chapter about orgasms.
[00:11:28] Jane: And I was like, I. You have my attention. I'm just sitting here with time to kill, and I'm the only person in this waiting room. So I don't care who's looking at me reading this thing. And I had recently turned 18 and so I was like, I'm an adult. I'm a grown ass woman. Now I'm gonna read this chapter about orgasms in public. I was, I felt really good about myself. Anyways, I'm reading this book and it was like basically step by step instructions for how to achieve orgasm, with masturbation. And I was just like. I was such a nerdy about it. I was like, I feel like I'm gonna, I don't have anything to take notes with.
[00:12:00] Jane: This is like, no phones. I didn't have my journal with me, so I asked my gynecologist if she could photocopy. I was like, I just need these two pages. And she was just like, oh, absolutely. She acted like this was like the most normal thing in the world. So I went home with homework and I waited until I
[00:12:18] Etienne: kind of homework
[00:12:19] Jane: I waited until like nobody was home. And I listened to the song called Erotica by Madonna, had just come out.
[00:12:27] Heidi: Oh
[00:12:27] Etienne: Oh
[00:12:28] Heidi: Oh my God,
[00:12:29] Jane: And I had purchased the single, and I was just like, that was my inspiration. Like you were talking Etienne about whatever your media of choice was. I thought that song was sexy as hell. And I wasn't even a huge Madonna fan, but that song, I was like, I like this song.
[00:12:41] Heidi: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:41] Jane: I had that song. It was back at the, you had a CD player and I just could repeat. So I was like, I'm putting this song on. This is my mission. I'm like, nobody's home.
[00:12:49] Etienne: Don't even have to reach over and hit back. You just repeat.
[00:12:52] Jane: I hit repeat and I'm gonna read this chapter again and I'm gonna keep on trying until I get this right. And that is what I did. And life was never the same. I was like, same like you, Heidi. I was like, and now this is going to happen every time now. It didn't, but I knew what was possible
[00:13:10] Heidi: Yes,
[00:13:11] Jane: and I feel
[00:13:12] Heidi: was 18 too. That's funny.
[00:13:14] Etienne: That's what I was gonna ask. I wanted to see how old you were.
[00:13:16] Heidi: Yeah. 18.
[00:13:17] Etienne: Well, wait. Now wait. You say that doesn't necessarily mean it happens every time, but wait, the question would be, does it happen every time you go to masturbate?
[00:13:25] Jane: Oh yeah. Like, well, yeah, maybe unless I give up because I'm like tired or,
[00:13:31] Etienne: Or somebody interrupts you?
[00:13:33] Jane: that's very, very rare. Yeah. Or, you know, if, I don't know.
[00:13:37] Etienne: I guess I was a little lucky then 'cause I get to have my first orgasm at 14. But that was because my mother sat me down. It was summertime. Yeah, she literally was like, Hey, so I think you might be masturbating. And I wasn't. So, I mean, I've been trying since, remember I told you with my box of porn, I had been trying to masturbate since I was like eight, but nothing was happening.
[00:14:01] Etienne: I was not having orgasms. I was the most frustrated masturbator ever. And, she's like, well, I think it might be that time and I wanna make sure you're doing it correctly. I just sat there like, I cannot believe what's happening. And so she just started describing how to masturbate and what your clit does and you're supposed to rub it.
[00:14:21] Etienne: And I'm like, what? And like, like I, I don't know if I'd had sex education yet. I think it ended up happening the upcoming school year, my sex education was about to happen, but I don't even think then I would know. Oh, so the clits like the little penis. Okay, but how did I not get that beforehand? I've been rubbing down there forever and nothing was happening. And then she told me when she came for the first time that she fell off her bed. So I
[00:14:43] Jane: Oh my God.
[00:14:43] Etienne: that that was supposed to happen to me too, so I was like, so that's part of it. Okay, so I have to fall off the bed. I have to fall off the bed.
[00:14:52] Etienne: That means I know I had an orgasm. I have to lose all control of my body and fall off the bed. Okay, I got it. I got it. And I'm like, I'm gonna go read. I totally said that because it was summertime and I used to read a lot in the summertime. I was like, um, yeah, I'm gonna go read. I didn't go read. I went upstairs in my room, shut and locked the door and tried to do it, and I thought nothing, you know, I was getting wet and everything, but I wasn't having an orgasm.
[00:15:20] Etienne: And I was like, she's lying. You just made that shit up. Like why is she lying to me? Like I can't go back down there and say, you lied to me. Then she knows what I was up here doing. Like, but then I like that the whole day it stewed in my head. I was like, was she lying? Is she's lying? I'm not sure. So I just like the internal dialogue for the whole rest of the day.
[00:15:39] Etienne: And then that evening I was like, maybe she wasn't lying. Why would she lie like that? I mean, she lies, but that's odd. You know, like that's cruel. So I decided I was going to do it. Do what she said. Do it till I had the orgasm. I was determined. I think it took me 45 minutes and I brought up in my head 'cause I didn't have any access to my porn that I used to have.
[00:16:01] Etienne: 'Cause this, the, the new house where the porn disappeared. So I had to use the memories of all of the images that I used to have my favorites from the porn box. I ran through those and yeah, still with all of that, trying to think of the dirtiest, dirtiest things I'd ever seen. 45 minutes and I didn't fall off the bed, so I was like wondering, did I really have one?
[00:16:23] Etienne: I think I did, I think, and then I did it again the next night. I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's definitely different. Like that feels different. Like you could feel like there's a definite,
[00:16:33] Heidi: Hmm.
[00:16:34] Etienne: yeah. So yeah, I was 14 finally, after all of those years of. Frustrated, masturbation. But yeah, coming with a man though, that's a whole different story.
[00:16:48] Etienne: I mean, that's so much harder. Not when you're in a long-term relationship per se, but like if you're having a one-off encounter or casual encounter, or, if you have a friend with benefit you've been having. Sex with them regularly. And you're there for that purpose. You're there for your pleasure.
[00:17:10] Etienne: Each of your pleasures, you're there for. Yes, both are supposed to be benefiting. This is not a one-sided situation. But even still, some people might not listen to you or they might not do what you ask and you know what you need for you to have an orgasm. And I just wish it was easier for women to have orgasms. It's really, really annoying that it's not,
[00:17:33] Heidi: so easy for me. It's almost, it's almost like embarrassing.
[00:17:39] Etienne: what?
[00:17:40] Heidi: How
[00:17:41] Etienne: so you didn't have one till you're 18? And then it was just like, pop. You just like
[00:17:46] Heidi: and then it's like within seconds sometimes. I mean, seriously, like it's, it can
[00:17:51] Jane: wait within seconds when you're with a partner.
[00:17:55] Heidi: It even masturbating, like I used to get frustrated. I had this, I had to get rid of the rabbit vibrators because I would come so quickly that I'm just like, well shit. There was no buildup. There was just like,
[00:18:09] Etienne: Oh God.
[00:18:09] Heidi: I feel like one of those guys that was like, ah, and so it was just like, I don't know, it was kind of frustrating, okay, I get released, but, I didn't
[00:18:17] Jane: With no romance. Even with yourself, you want a little
[00:18:20] Etienne: You are like, I wasn't even really wet yet. It already came. That was crazy.
[00:18:25] Heidi: That's why I like the womanizer, the clitoris,
[00:18:28] Etienne: Yeah. I still have to get that.
[00:18:30] Heidi: Uh, that's my favorite. And it's just the right amount of time and, yeah.
[00:18:35] Etienne: my gosh, no. Wait, so with a partner though, with somebody else there, how long are you saying, it's still just as quick?
[00:18:43] Heidi: Well, no, it depends, like, yeah. It depends on what's going on and if they know what they're doing and that kind of thing. Yeah.
[00:18:52] Etienne: Yeah.
[00:18:52] Heidi: It can be pretty quickly though. So not super quickly. 'cause I've had guys that only took a couple minutes and I'm frustrated 'cause I'm like, okay, I didn't come. With myself it can be quickly. But with a man, it's usually a little bit longer. Yeah.
[00:19:08] Jane: But if they came first and you didn't, did they?
[00:19:12] Etienne: try,
[00:19:12] Heidi: No,
[00:19:13] Etienne: Oh, we're just done. We're just finished.
[00:19:15] Heidi: Yeah, we're just finished. I'm a minute, man, and we're done. And I'm like, what is happening? No.
[00:19:23] Jane: Now, that did happen with partners that I had when I was younger and I didn't know like how to. Advocate for myself in those early relationships. Right? To be like, I think that there's an imbalance here. Once I unlocked the combination to my own safe, I was like, okay, this is possible. Then let me just, you know, see if this will happen with the next person I was with. 'cause when I unlocked my own safe, like I'd only been with one other person and it definitely did not happen with him. I just said, okay, what do we have to do to get that same thing going on? But I didn't have the vocabulary and the confidence to be like, you need to touch me there, or you need to go down on me for a little while.
[00:20:07] Jane: I didn't have that confidence and so I definitely, I never faked it in the moment. But I definitely am ashamed to say that I lied about it afterwards if they asked me,
[00:20:19] Heidi: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:20] Jane: because then I'd be like, okay, I heard that there'll be, all these things they did in service of the male ego. I'm like, are they going to break up with me? Right if they think that they're not performing well and I don't know what to tell them really to do, except like, when I'm by myself, I'll do this, just do that, you know? Um, and. Yeah, so that if it didn't happen, I was like, I guess it's not gonna happen for me this way.
[00:20:45] Jane: And then it wasn't until, I did have a very romantic encounter that I've talked about on an early episode where it was wonderful. And he did, actually, it was like, he read my mind. He is like, I'll just touch her the way she touches herself and it'll happen and then we can keep going and then it could happen again.
[00:20:57] Jane: And I was like, wait, what? And I wasn't with a lot of people, I've only been five people, but the person I was with after that was like, it felt great, but it never happened with them. And then the person after that I felt comfortable with to say, 'cause we were together for seven years. He was very verbal about like, I like this. Or, and asking, and here's the thing that could close the gap. Ask me,
[00:21:21] Heidi: Yeah.
[00:21:22] Jane: me what I want, and, and
[00:21:23] Heidi: partner.
[00:21:23] Jane: the, set the table in a way that makes the conversation comfortable. If we're gonna be vulnerable with each other and go to the space together.
[00:21:31] Heidi: do you like?
[00:21:32] Etienne: Yeah. What can I do for you? What turns you on? What do you, what do you, what do you wanna hear? Do you want me to hear me say something? Do you want me to touch you a certain way? Where should I touch you with what part of my body? Like.
[00:21:43] Jane: And once the, I was like, oh, if this person is comfortable talking about, and I cared about him deeply, so I was like, all right, so if we're in this space together and the conversation is open then I was like, why did I ever lie about it? So then I never lied about it or never faked one, like I said, I just would just lie about it afterwards, I'd be like, yeah, I did. And they're like, well, I guess I must have missed it. I'm like, yeah, it was right after you did the thing, whatever, insert eye roll here. But, with that other long-term relationship, I never lied about it. And there were times where it didn't work out, for whatever reason, probably like Heidi, I was maybe just too in my head that day. And then I would just say, but I knew it would happen another time. So I was like, you know what? I'll just be here for you right now. I was like, 'cause right now, I don't know, it's not working for me today. But , never lied about it again.
[00:22:30] Etienne: I've definitely lied about it.
[00:22:31] Heidi: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:32] Etienne: I've definitely faked
[00:22:33] Heidi: Oh yeah.
[00:22:33] Etienne: Yeah. Yeah. Or exaggerated. How about that? So many times with my ex-husband. 'Cause I think I've mentioned that we had the same sex the same way, in the same exact order, with the same amount of time on everything. It was just cookie cutter every single time.
[00:22:47] Etienne: So, I did have an orgasm because I was the one that. Was pleased first, then we would go into intercourse and, I kind of wanted to be over as fast as possible because it. Wasn't fun for me 'cause I didn't think he wanted to do it. So I exaggerate. I mean, it did feel good and I would have orgasms, but then if he hadn't already had his, I would just then exaggerate my vocalizations, my moans.
[00:23:16] Etienne: Not like porn style, but a more normal woman coming, yeah, right in his ear. Because then that way he couldn't take it. It was too much for him thinking I was having this crazy orgasm and I wasn't really, I'd already had it like back, at the beginning.
[00:23:34] Etienne: So, yeah. And I faked it with a lot of other people too. I faked it a lot with, like one-offs, post. Divorce because there's no reason to, with people that I knew, I'm never gonna see them again. So I feel like it's a safer bet to just fake, to get it done and let them think everything's fine, get them out the door and you never see them again.
[00:23:56] Etienne: Because I think if you're honest with people that you don't know in a situation where you're very vulnerable and you're naked and you're a woman and you don't have the physical strength of the man, that you put yourself in a very vulnerable position. And I am not gonna do that. So, I didn't fake it with everybody, but I faked it with some who I thought might've been, Hmm. I probably shouldn't have gotten myself in this situation. So we're just gonna pretend everything's great and I am really tired. I need to go to bed. Do you mind if you leave, just get them out the door.
[00:24:22] Heidi: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:23] Jane: So, man, so do you think that, and I'm not, I want everyone to know that I'm a feminist. I'm just looking at these stats again and from what you just said and how we were all just kind of nodding about things that we've done in service of the male ego, like. Is closing this gap, what work do we have to do Right. To close the gap, too. 'cause if we're giving them signals like
[00:24:47] Etienne: Yeah,
[00:24:48] Heidi: They're doing everything great,
[00:24:50] Jane: Like how are they
[00:24:51] Heidi: so the next person is getting awful service as well?
[00:24:55] Etienne: Yeah, but I also have to feel safe. So if I don't feel
[00:24:57] Jane: No, totally.
[00:24:58] Etienne: the situation, then I'm going to do what I think, you know, I'm, I'm reading the moment. I'm doing this consciously, like, Hmm, this is not feeling okay and we're gonna make this go by faster and just get this done and get him out and we'll never see him again.
[00:25:13] Etienne: But for the ones who actually had promise, who I felt safe with, I would be more honest and tell them what to do. Yes. So there were plenty of people who got lots of education with me. Because I would tell them exactly what I wanted. And even then, sometimes, like I said, there would be men who were like, Hmm, no, I don't do that.
[00:25:29] Etienne: Like, oh God, the guy, this is my favorite. The guy who looked so much like Jared Leto, I'm not even kidding. He was beautiful. He was beautiful. We met at a Starbucks. We both got in line for the Starbucks right after we met each other in person, and I just couldn't believe how amazing, like how much more gorgeous he was in person. And the barista took my order and he walked up right behind me and he made me pay the guy charged me. He did not think I was with this man. Even though we were talking. The barista is like, they're not together. Like this guy is a fucking a thousand on a 10 scale. And I'm maybe a seven, seven and a half and he is like a thousand. And I totally understandable. I just thought that was great. I'm like, yeah, this guy is so, and he was not great in bed, but I did have sex with him more than once just to look at his face. Um,
[00:26:27] Jane: I wanna say for the record that Etienne is very beautiful and,
[00:26:30] Heidi: Yes.
[00:26:30] Jane: could totally land Jared, however you say his name. Listen
[00:26:36] Etienne: Oh, and I asked him. I asked him, yeah. So because he really, really, really enjoyed having I broke my rule and went down on him before he had gone down on me. If you ever rule where he has to do it to you first. In your mind, you have this rule, then you're not giving out free blow jobs. So I have that rule and I broke it with him and I did it first to him.
[00:26:57] Etienne: I probably, 'cause he was so beautiful, he probably gets it all the time, God damnit. And I was like, okay. And like my turn. And he is like, Nope. I'm like, what? I mean I didn't say my turn, but I'm like. Okay, so whenever you wanna Yeah. I don't remember what I said, but I literally was like, you know, I'm ready. Like you can go, you know, get down there, get started. And he is like, I don't do that. Uh, um.
[00:27:26] Heidi: What.
[00:27:27] Etienne: ever. Yeah. No, never. I don't, I don't do that. I'm like, okay.
[00:27:32] Jane: forget that guy.
[00:27:33] Etienne: I'm like, do you mind if I grab a vibrator? I was just like, okay, if you're gonna just flat out say, no, I don't do that. Then I'm going to be crass enough to be like, well, then I'm gonna go get what I need.
[00:27:46] Etienne: And he is like, sure, go get it. And I literally put it on me and we had intercourse then. Yeah. So even though you tell people something that you need, they will flat out just say no. That's why don't ever give the blowjobs out first. Don't break that rule. Don't break that rule. Mm-hmm. He said he had a dream. He texted me weeks later and was like, I had a dream about you and you gave me a blowjob. That was so good. It was like the alien popped outta my stomach, from the alien film. That's how hard he came and I was like,
[00:28:17] Heidi: Um,
[00:28:18] Etienne: I can't say the same back. Sorry.
[00:28:21] Heidi: yeah.
[00:28:22] Etienne: Oh God.
[00:28:23] Jane: You know, I don't know. I did date somebody who was very beautiful and I never was able to, he was hot, and he was good, but never crossed that finish line with him. And I do think that in retrospect, it might've been because I didn't totally trust him.
[00:28:36] Etienne: Ooh.
[00:28:37] Heidi: Hmm.
[00:28:37] Jane: I feel like that is part of it, like Heidi is like getting outta your own head. And then Etienne, you said something incredibly important, which is like you have to feel safe,
[00:28:47] Etienne: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:49] Jane: is if you don't feel safe,
[00:28:50] Etienne: You're, you're naked. You're not as strong as them no matter what. Yeah.
[00:28:55] Jane: You have to be safe enough to be vulnerable enough to get out of your head and there also has to be mutual trust and I think with the state of the world, like maybe that, that's
[00:29:04] Etienne: Oh, it's just gonna get worse.
[00:29:06] Jane: I'm looking at these numbers and I'm like, okay, that was just from 2024. I don't know if it's gotten any better. I was actually very disappointed also to see that the numbers are that high in, in 2024 when we're supposedly there's.
[00:29:20] Etienne: you mean that big? The gap is
[00:29:21] Jane: How big the gap is. Yeah. That, and I'm wondering if, and we'll get into this on other episodes, but like if there's just the proliferation of porn has done
[00:29:32] Etienne: Hmm.
[00:29:34] Jane: Services in some ways to be like, Hey, these are all the options available to you. And you could see what might turn you on that you didn't know about. But it can also do the disservice of having this expectation that becomes this performative thing where women are like, okay, well I'm expected to look this way and sound this way when I have an orgasm, so I'm going to do that performatively in service of the male ego.
[00:29:58] Jane: Right. Or so that I feel better about myself. 'cause that's what it's supposed to look like to me. Especially for younger folks who did not grow up pre um Yeah, pre
[00:30:08] Etienne: pre porn on the.
[00:30:08] Jane: Right? Yeah, exactly. It, it's just so ubiquitous that they just feel like they just have to do that and then privately they can do whatever they need to by themselves to just get that feeling.
[00:30:21] Jane: But there's nothing like having that feeling, I guess, mutually with somebody else that you do trust, like Esther Perel, who is this amazing sex therapist and she has a Ted talk and probably more than one TED talk at this point, but she described sex as not something that you do, but a place that you go with somebody else.
[00:30:42] Etienne: Yes.
[00:30:43] Jane: And I just find that to be such a beautiful description. But it is, it's a little journey that you're taking and if you're taking that with someone who like, and, if orgasm is the only goal, then you don't need another person. Right. So I guess that's where we're talking about with this gap is happening during mutual shared experiences. Because you can have all, like you said, you get that saddle, you can get yourself a magic wand, you can do whatever you want. But if you're wanting to do that, like it's, I think that looking at it from that frame of a place that you can then inhabit with somebody else safely, with trust then you can just, so many things are on the table and I think that's enough to close the gap and you can talk about it, show each other, experiment together, and then. You're off to the races, man.
[00:31:27] Heidi: There needs to be less shame on that's, that's the problem. People don't talk about it
[00:31:33] Etienne: there's just too much, uh, puritanical stuff going on with some of the churches, right? Like wanting to push abstinence and of course that's not encouraging people to get together and then be vocal with each other about what they want sexually, you know, that's just gonna create shame because they still wanna have sex.
[00:31:49] Etienne: those abstinence courses or journeys or whatever you wanna call them, they end up having more STIs, more unwanted pregnancies than the, the kids who grew up without the abstinence, like being forced on
[00:32:03] Heidi: Mm-hmm. Yep.
[00:32:05] Etienne: There's just education
[00:32:06] Heidi: sets them yeah. not knowing
[00:32:09] Etienne: Education is what's gonna make. I mean, If we could educate everybody the same way and point out over and over and over again that what's happening in porn is not real life.
[00:32:20] Heidi: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:20] Etienne: It is not real life. I'm sorry. thing, uh, Peggy Ornstein. I just wanna talk about this one thing. 'Cause this was so great. I came across this last night when I was looking through all of my highlights from the book, and this is quoted from her book. She said, listening to stories of obligatory, sometimes coerced, usually one-sided oral sex. I began to wonder. What if rather than blow jobs, guys were expecting girls to say, fetch them lattes from Starbucks.
[00:32:47] Etienne: Would the girls be so compliant? She was talking to a girl named Sam. And Sam laughed when I asked her that. She said, well, a latte costs money. And Peggy said, okay, pretend it was free. Let's say guys expected you to keep getting them cups of water from the kitchen whenever you were alone. Would you be so willing, and would you mind that they never offered to bring you one in return? Yeah. That's what's happening. That's why the orgasm gap is so big. We're objects and the women are watching porn too, and they're used to seeing themselves being objects and they don't know how to speak up, and they don't know how to ask for what they want, because you're right. What I, you've, I think you said it, Jane, like, if I don't have an orgasm, does that mean I'm gonna lose my boyfriend if I don't pretend to have an orgasm or my, is he gonna leave me for somebody who's gonna pretend better than me?
[00:33:35] Jane: Yep.
[00:33:36] Etienne: And who's gonna eventually give me the real orgasm, you know? And the really sad part is no matter how much masturbation I've done in my life, the biggest orgasms I've ever had were with other people.
[00:33:47] Heidi: Yeah, same. I prefer it with, yeah.
[00:33:50] Etienne: Yeah. It's so different.
[00:33:52] Heidi: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:54] Etienne: Probably 'cause there's a buildup and it takes a while. You know, it's not like a one minute thing because Yeah, I can run, I can make myself in one minute. could probably like have a masturbator off like contest to see. You could go faster, I'm sure. like you'd win, but like
[00:34:09] Jane: Yeah, Heidi seems to hold the record.
[00:34:11] Etienne: yeah, you, I think you do. You're like popping 'em out. You probably have five while I'm still trying for my one. The build up with somebody else. Holy cow. And when you finally get there, 'cause you know you're there, it's that That build. Or how about the anticipation before anything gets touched?
[00:34:29] Heidi: Yeah. Especially if they're a good kisser. Like the, the guy I was thinking about that was the minute, man, he was such a good kisser. Like so good at MA making out, but the rest of it. Mm. Very disappointing. And I was, yeah, I, I was, I was. 21, 22, something yeah, didn't
[00:34:50] Etienne: Yeah.
[00:34:51] Heidi: what I wanted or needed.
[00:34:53] Jane: But could take the piece of like, okay, the good kisser and the anticipatory factor and the trust and the vulnerability and the shared goal of like, we're gonna going to have this space that we carve out for each other, and you don't know, like, okay, how is it gonna happen? When is it actually going to happen?
[00:35:09] Jane: Is this you know. position and act and what we're doing right now is this, what's gonna me over the edge. And if you, if you've been with the same a while, like they can read you and they can actually be like, I'm gonna actually take you to the edge, but not push you over it yet. Ooh, let's
[00:35:22] Etienne: The edging. Oh.
[00:35:23] Jane: then, yeah. And then they're we're gonna do something. and it just, and builds and builds and the, the emotional thing and just all of it is, yeah, you have to have those ingredients And then, that's the only way they're gonna close the gap, the education layer. The trust layer, the um, the communication and,
[00:35:42] Etienne: The understanding and Yeah, I mean, and wanting to be there for each other,
[00:35:49] Heidi: Wanting to please your partner. Mm-hmm.
[00:35:51] Etienne: And yeah, you know what? There are some times where, I mean, I could be in the, I thought I was in the right head space when I entered a sexual situation with a partner, and there were just some nights I know I'm not getting there.
[00:36:01] Etienne: There's just something in the back of my head that will not shut up. And it's usually something that's just been bugging me, like work. Or something stupid. Oh, this project I need to do and it won't leave my head. So I can't get outta my head to like focus. 'cause it's focus, it's intense focus.
[00:36:18] Heidi: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:19] Jane: So it has to be, yeah, you have to have a healthy, You have to be in a healthy head space before you even then come to the table to meet the other person, to then go to that safe space together and share in that moment and if you can, if you can have all those ingredients together and we're mixing it up in a nice mutual respect pot there, then.
[00:36:39] Etienne: I have this idea you guys how to close the orgasm gap. What if there were no more babies being conceived unless the woman had an orgasm?
[00:36:47] Jane: Well, shit, there's actually studies that show your chances are better if you do because contractions like kind of help just Well, they they, and they kind of help pump the, you know, the sperm, like, And
[00:37:00] Heidi: Yeah. Yeah. It gives them a boost. They're like booster rockets
[00:37:04] Etienne: Yeah. But what if it was a requirement? Literally the world's gonna die out if men don't start stepping up, or our partners don't start stepping up.
[00:37:13] Heidi: Yeah.
[00:37:14] Jane: I feel like that wouldn't be enough of an impetus. The impetus would be like you, it has to be that both people have to either come at the same time or the woman and then you, and then the man like then I think that would close. That's the only that's gonna close the gap is like you don't get your nut until you give her hers.
[00:37:30] Etienne: Yeah. I mean, how it was it, it has been in all of my long-term relationships, I always, 'cause I can have multiples. You give me the first one, I have more, you know, so just give me the first one and we're good. Although I did have one friend who was married and she could only have one, she could not have multiples. Yeah. So, um, yeah, that was really sad when she told me that, just 'cause there were other going on in that, in the sexual relationship between her husband. I was like, oh God, I don't know how to fix this. I don't know what to tell you. I was like, uh,
[00:38:03] Jane: yeah. I'm like, I don't know if it's true. It just might have been true with that particular partnership, because I used to think I was a one and done lady too. I was just like, okay, I'm done now. Don't even look at it. Don't touch it. Don't blow on it. Nothing. Just don't be quiet. Scared. I was like, because I was like, I need a minute. I need a minute. Alright. those days are, those days are happily long gone. Like, that I I, I didn't know there was such a thing as I was like, wait, you can do more.
[00:38:28] Heidi: Yeah.
[00:38:29] Etienne: Oh
[00:38:29] Jane: But I was like, I don't even like, I mean like even by myself, I was like, I can't even think about it right now. Like it, it's too Um, But I didn't know that there were other kinds. I didn't know that you could do other stuff afterwards and then there would be, and so then, you know, the floodgates open and it's a wonderful, wonderful thing.
[00:38:46] Etienne: Oh, Jane,
[00:38:47] Jane: I do
[00:38:47] Etienne: of you.
[00:38:48] Jane: but yeah, but I do think, yeah, all of those ingredients. We can close the gap.
[00:38:55] Etienne: The ladies have to come
[00:38:56] Jane: That should be like,
[00:38:57] Etienne: The guys are not allowed to come until the ladies come, so if she can't come, he doesn't come either. Blue balls forever. Sorry, which is not a thing, but you get it.
[00:39:07] Jane: I now wanna get a poster from like the England subway tube station. So this is mind the gap and people think I'm talking about subways, but I know what it really means.
[00:39:17] Heidi: Yeah,
[00:39:18] Etienne: Mind the gap. Oh gosh. Oh, the gap. The gap has not gotten any better, guys. I think it's gotten worse.
[00:39:27] Jane: Yeah, let's work on that. Do better.
[00:39:30] Etienne: I don't know how to fix this. I dunno how to fix this.
[00:39:35] Jane: I think we gave some good suggestions,
[00:39:38] Heidi: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:39] Jane: but I think advocating for yourself is also like needs to be added to the list of ingredients.
[00:39:43] Heidi: Open
[00:39:44] Etienne: you know what I think we have to take our focus off of the important thing is the relationship or the guy. No, you are the important thing you have to care about you. You have to nurture yourself. So if you are feeling a complete and whole person on your own, you're not worried about what the guy's thinking, not worried about like whether he likes you or not. It should be like, no, I'm gonna be honest. I'm gonna tell you You know, We're in a relationship, but we may not be in one for long if you can't, you know, if we can't get there, that's how I think it should be, you know? And in the future, that's definitely what I'll be doing because I'm not jumping into bed with anybody anymore. It's gonna be like, this is a very long interview.
[00:40:29] Heidi: Yeah,
[00:40:30] Etienne: This is gonna be multiple interviews. I need to find, yeah, I need to know your views on sex and you may not pass the test. There's tests. There's gonna be tests. My clothes are not coming off. Tests have to be passed.
[00:40:43] Heidi: When do you think you'll be ready
[00:40:45] Etienne: I mean, If the right guy like walked in somewhere right now, I would be okay. I would be, I would,
[00:40:50] Heidi: Mm-hmm. You're not pursuing it though.
[00:40:53] Etienne: no. I don't have my, I have nothing. I have no, no apps going. I've got nothing. Not a single thing. There's no way anybody would find me unless they just happen to like Walk right into me. You know, seriously, if I run into the food lion, not the best place to pick up men. You need to be at a better grocery store than that.
[00:41:10] Jane: Whole Foods
[00:41:11] Heidi: That's our show you've been listening to, the Women are Plotting. If you have a story you'd like to share or have any comments, we'd love to hear from you. Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com and of course you can find us on all the socials. Thanks, and until next time, be safe and be excellent to each other.
[00:42:32] Heidi:
