Why Estrogen Matters: Daisy's Story

Menopause shouldn’t feel like a mystery you solve in the dark. We pull back the curtain on overlooked symptoms and the relief many women are still told to fear—from local estrogen for UTIs and urethral irritation to transdermal estradiol that supports heart and brain health. Alongside our guest Daisy, we trace a two-year odyssey through shrugging specialists, “normal” labs, and finally a team that connected the dots: thyroid conversion issues, deep vitamin D deficiency, low iron, and classic perimenopause symptoms hiding in plain sight.

We talk plainly about what too many guides skip: itchy ear canals, phantom cigarette smells, sleep shattered by hourly bathroom trips, rage that spikes out of nowhere, and a belly that refuses to budge because fat is making up for lost estrogen. We explain why timing matters for HRT safety, how patches and micronized progesterone change the profile, and why a single hormone test can’t capture a system in flux. The bigger picture emerges when you zoom out—estrogen influences hundreds of functions, so “random” problems often share a common root.

This is a call for evidence over alarmism and agency over resignation. If unwarranted black box labels scare you, we walk through what’s changed, where the data is strongest, and encourage you to find a doctor who listens to you! Bring a clear symptom log, ask about transdermal options, test vitamin D, iron, and full thyroid markers, and don’t accept “you’re fine” when your body says otherwise. We’re Gen X loud on purpose regarding HRT: so you can feel better sooner, protect your heart and bones, think clearer, and keep joy in your body. If this helped, subscribe, share it with a friend who needs answers, and leave a review to push this conversation further.

Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com, and find us on all the socials. Be safe and be excellent to each other.

Chapters

• 0:00 Opening And Gen X Momentum
• 0:27 Show Intro And Episode Setup
• 0:48 Does Breast Cancer or Heart Disease Kill More Women?
• 1:40 UTIs, Urogenital Changes, And Topical Estrogen
• 4:39 Low Estrogen Symptoms & the Benefits of HRT
• 8:38 Do Chimpanzees Go Through Menopause?
• 9:56 What Other Animals Experience Menopause?
• 11:20 Daisy Joins: Why She Sought Help
• 12:54 Daisy Gets the Flu For the First Time -- Plus a Weird Rash
• 13:54 Daisy's Symptoms Grew -- And So Did Her Rage
• 16:05 A Healthcare Provider Who Finally Listened To Her
• 20:08 The Black Box Warning Label on HRT
• 21:29 The Women Who Were Part of the Faulty WHI HRT Study
• 21:44 Paxil Is For Hot Flashes -- ONLY!
• 22:30 Itchy Ear Canals, Another Symptom of Perimenopause & Menopause
• 22:54 Phantom Smells....
• 24:10 Women Have Always Been Expected To Suck Up Our Pain
• 25:12 Women Bonding Over Menstrual Products In Public Restrooms
• 26:44 Doctors Work in "Silos"
• 28:26 Not Even Our Mothers Can Help Us With Information
• 30:08 Inflammation and Rashes Are Also Symptoms of Peri- and Menopause
• 32:10 Statistics on Post-Menopausal Women
• 34:53 If You're Scared of Systemic Hormones, You Can Always Do Topical (For Some Benefits)
• 36:18 FDA Removes Black Label Warning on HRT Products
• 37:18 A Recap of How HRT Can Benefit Peri- and Menopausal Women
• 39:32 Have Belly Fat For the First Time In Your Life? That's Your Body Trying To Make Estrogen
• 40:41 Gen X Will Work Hard On Educating About Menopause So Younger Generations Will Benefit

Transcript

[00:00:00] Jane: The awareness now that is being generated because Gen X women are like, um, yeah, we're not gonna be quiet about this. Like, we're kind of suffering and we don't like it. So the quote from the book is what is different now is the emergence of a generation of women who are not passive about taking charge of their lives and health and who do not regard menopause as a shame or a scandal. And I remember when I first was reading, I was just like, hell yeah, I'm not being quiet. I'm like, I'm uncomfortable. This shit sucks. 

[00:00:27] Etienne: Welcome listeners. This is The Women Are Plotting. I'm Etienne Rose Olivier and I'm here with my friends and co-hosts, Heidi Willis and Jane Gari.

[00:00:42] Etienne: On today's episode, we're gonna be talking about Daisy and her story with hormone replacement therapy. 

[00:00:48] Etienne: And I'll start off today with our fun and or interesting fact, which this is definitely not a fun fact, so sorry about that. This is from the book Estrogen Matters, which is what we'll be referencing a lot today. Heart disease kills up to seven times as many women each year as breast cancer does. So that's 300,000 versus 41,000. And every decade of a woman's life after age 30, heart disease is responsible for more deaths than breast cancer. And being on ERT or HRT can reduce the risk of acute cardiovascular events and death by up to 50%. 

[00:01:24] Jane: I don't know, I'm always just floored by levels of heart disease and all the other, uh, anyway, it's, yeah. Not, a fun fact at all. That's my comment. Not fun. Interesting. Like, Hmm. Mine's not actually fun either. 

[00:01:40] Jane: And mine was something that I learned in the book, and it's not, it's interesting to me because I'm going to call my doctors this week and be like, Hey, that I didn't know that having UtIs more regularly is something that happens to a lot of women in perimenopause and menopause, and that this discomfort, like urethra discomfort is also more common. Like they were calling it, they were making fun of the term vaginal atrophy and just saying like, let's stop saying that and calling it like, geni, geniuratory there was a different adjective and I think it was geniuratory. And I, said, okay, I think I'm having geniuratory atrophy because it's happening to me right now. I'm literally gonna call my doctor and be like, what?

[00:02:27] Etienne: Oh.

[00:02:28] Jane: Yeah. Where it's like, I don't have to actually go to the bathroom, but it's like this weird, irritation thing. And they said it can happen from having sex. and also the UTI thing can just happen more commonly. 'Cause I never had the my entire life. And then all of a sudden, like last year, I had one And it was post intercourse. And I was just like, okay, is this just because I didn't go to the bathroom right away. I don't think I should be punished because we'd like to cuddle for a little bit. I just feel like it's really rude to be like, and now I gotta go to the bathroom. I'm gonna come back and cuddle. Just gimme a minute. It's annoying. But I learned that fact. and then I learned that topical estrogen, this was also in the book like a topical estrogen cream, can help with that, with the area. And I was like, wait, what? I'm like, I need this in my life. I like wrote down a couple of options and I'm gonna ask my doctor. I'm like, did you know this? Because it was very disconcerting. Like some of the facts in the book there's a lot of evidence to the contrary, but then you'll still see on Mayo Clinic or the Cleveland Clinic, or even the NYU site, about how they still are citing some information from the Women's Health

[00:03:32] Etienne: Fucking ridiculous.

[00:03:33] Jane: it's really, it's like how is this still 

[00:03:36] Etienne: It's like 23 years later. And also the Rheumatoid Arthritis Association, I think it was, I'll look it up again for you, Jane. They do recommend hormone replacement therapy for people suffering from rheumatoid arthritis. 

[00:03:49] Jane: Well, thank you. That is good to know. So I can go

[00:03:52] Etienne: it again. I'll send you the link and then you'll have it like as, yeah. 

[00:03:56] Jane: Yes. Cause in prior discussions about hormone replacement therapy, I was concerned, because as someone with RA that my rheumatologist years ago, and this was years ago, had said that I shouldn't be on any medication that contain hormones, including my IUD doesn't have hormones in it. First of all, I had that conversation 16 years ago. And secondly, at that time, my rheumatologist was a man. I'm not saying that factors into it necessarily, but a lot of compounding factors make me wanna have another conversation with my current rheumatologist. But anyway, so, but that's my not so fun fact. Heidi, what's your not so fun fact? Or maybe you have a fun one. I don't know. 

[00:04:38] Heidi: I just wanted to talk about the effects of low estrogen. 'Cause not everybody talks about the different symptoms. Hot flashes, night sweats, vaginal dryness, mood swings, osteoporosis, and increased risk of heart disease. And the benefits, it relieves the menopausal symptoms. Prevents osteoporosis, reduces the risk of heart disease and improves mood and cognitive function. Yeah. And then the side effects are nausea, breast tenderness, slight increase risk of blood clots. And then that, increased risk, which is when you really look at it, it's really minimal of certain types of cancer. But I would rather reduce the risk of heart disease

[00:05:19] Etienne: Which will kill us for sure. 

[00:05:20] Heidi: Yes. 

[00:05:22] Etienne: One outta two of us are gonna die of heart disease. Literally.

[00:05:25] Heidi: It's crazy that, you know, there's, there's, but what's crazy is there's a whole generation of women that didn't get this treatment because of this faulty

[00:05:34] Etienne: Yeah. Which is why our nursing homes are gonna be overrun with women who are still alive because they live longer than men, even without HRT, and they're disabled. They can't take care of themselves. They can't think properly. They've got dementia. They, you know, I mean 

[00:05:48] Heidi: Yeah, yeah. Cause it reduces your risk for alzheimer's as well. So like, there's so many benefits. It's crazy that there's an entire generation 

[00:05:59] Etienne: Literally everything that I was afraid of getting as an older person is gone. Suppose like my risks are so much lowered with HRT. 'Cause I was worried about dying of breaking a hip.

[00:06:09] Heidi: almost feels criminal the way that this all went down and how many women were

[00:06:16] Etienne: I think so too. I think it was criminal. 

[00:06:18] Heidi: like, it's crazy.

[00:06:20] Jane: That's why I'm glad that we're talking about it now and that we're gonna have Daisy share her story after her fun fact. We're referencing a book, called, Estrogen Matters. And I don't know how to pronounce, is it Avrum Bluming, who's a oncologist and Carol Tavris, who's has a PhD in psychology, but one of the things in the introduction, I'm looking at page 13, but I put a post-it here because the awareness now that is being generated because Gen X women are like, um, yeah, we're not gonna be quiet about this. We're kind of suffering and we don't like it. So the quote from the book is what is different now is the emergence of a generation of women who are not passive about taking charge of their lives and health and who do not regard menopause as a shame or a scandal. And I remember when I first was reading, I was just like, hell yeah, i'm not being quiet. I'm like, I'm uncomfortable. This shit sucks. 

[00:07:09] Heidi: I mean, we've talked about having parties, right? Menopause parties, no other generation would've done this. 

[00:07:16] Jane: With like a giant inflatable vagina that confetti shoots out of, like, that's where like, 

[00:07:20] Heidi: like, we need to have gifts, we need to have a crown.

[00:07:24] Jane: a

[00:07:25] Heidi: like seriously, 

[00:07:26] Etienne: we should all know about HRT 'cause we still don't, I mean, there's so many of us out there that don't know. So literally I did find a

[00:07:34] Heidi: and so many doctors 

[00:07:35] Etienne: no and they still don't, like I went to my gynecologist, I did

[00:07:38] Heidi: any education on menopause, let alone HRT, so it's 

[00:07:42] Etienne: postmenopausal women, currently only 5% of us are on HRT according to JAMA. That same, that same publication that published the WHI, the Women's Health Initiative study from 2002. So they said only 5% of women who are postmenopausal are getting replacements. Still. Still. I mean, hopefully that jumps up, but I don't know if it will. 

[00:08:05] Heidi: Well, I think it will 'cause, you know, more and more of us are hitting that age, you know, in Gen X. And yeah, we're like, oh, there's solutions to this. I can go to a doctor and feel better and like, also protect my

[00:08:20] Etienne: Yeah, it's like why wouldn't you want to. 

[00:08:22] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:08:23] Jane: a smaller generation, and we might be quiet about a lot of things, but this is not one of them. And a lot of this is also, like, one of the other fun facts that I read is that, before 1900, the vast majority of women did not live past 50. I was like, wait, 

[00:08:37] Etienne: so no, problem with menopause. 

[00:08:38] Jane: Also, oh also the other crazy fact. But also it was mind boggling and it was on my brain because, as of recording this, a couple of days ago, Jane Goodall died and she was my, my sister's hero. and we just discovered two years ago that chimpanzees go through menopause. And I was like, how did Jane Goodall not know that she freaking lived with them? I guess that's how not on the radar. 

[00:09:02] Etienne: She didn't know that, or she just didn't talk about it. 

[00:09:04] Jane: We didn't know until 2023 that chimpanzees go through menopause. That was my takeaway from Estrogen Matters. I think because when I read that, I was like, how did we not, I mean, obviously I have lots of other notes. And notes from my doctor actually look at my post-it notes. But, the chimpanzee fact like, blew my mind. I should have led with that. But I guess because I'm having urethra discomfort, I'm leading with that.

[00:09:28] Etienne: Oh,

[00:09:30] Jane: Yes.

[00:09:31] Etienne: oh. 

[00:09:32] Jane: But, all right, so, we are digressing, but we need to really I wanna hear Daisy's story after your fun

[00:09:39] Heidi: special guest.

[00:09:40] Etienne: We're so glad to have you here, Daisy. 

[00:09:41] Daisy: Yeah, I listened to your first episode about menopause and I resonated so much with it and just love that it's getting so much awareness. I absolutely agree that of course it would be Gen X leading this as a proud Gen Xer myself. It's like, yeah, 

[00:09:56] Daisy: but my fun fact, and it's funny 'cause you kind of touched almost a little bit on it, Jane, but also did you know that killer whales and elephants go through menopause as well?

[00:10:05] Etienne: Killer Whales and Elephants. 

[00:10:07] Heidi: for them.

[00:10:08] Daisy: And usually, once they do, they actually take over leadership of the herd or the pod. So I was like, yeah. I think it's so fascinating.

[00:10:17] Etienne: So they must not be having swings then. I don't know if you'd want an elephant 

[00:10:26] Daisy: I don't know, maybe that's why they get to lead the group 'cause they're like, oh hey, just let 'em lead. It is totally fine. We'll, we'll go wherever they tell us to. Yeah. 

[00:10:42] Jane: Well, they have very matriarchal groups and they also are very social and have these hierarchies in their society, Super intelligent. And they live a long time and they don't like say, oh, well you're not having babies anymore, you old elephant, like, get outta here. They're like you said, they have a leadership position in their 

[00:11:01] Heidi: But they hold

[00:11:03] Daisy: they have. I 

[00:11:03] Heidi: They've seen some shit.

[00:11:05] Daisy: But yeah, thank you for having me on. But i wanted to jump in a little bit to my story because it took so long for me to find a doctor that would even listen or entertain the idea that I may need some sort of hormone replacement. 

[00:11:20] Daisy: For the past five-ish years or so, had like things, but I always kind of thought it was my thyroid, cause I am hypothyroid, I am on a thyroid medication. And then in 2022, that winter I had just moved from sunny, beautiful South Carolina to cold, depressing and dark Iowa. No offense to my fellow Iowans. And, I was like, gosh, maybe this is that. Right. None. Please do not. But I was like gosh, maybe it's the seasonal affective disorder. Maybe that's what I have. So I bought like a fake UV light. I'm doing all these things and just not feeling great. So had set up a doctor's appointment with a OBGYN, a new primary care physician, and they're like, yeah, everything's fine. And I'm like, well, hey, it's not fine. Like I feel like I'm starting to gain weight and I really dialed in with my nutrition, my exercise, taking care of myself. And so I was just like, I'm losing hair, I'm not sleeping. Like I was waking up about every hour in the middle of the night to go pee and I was like, something feels really off. and they're like, yeah, everything's fine. You're fine. I was like, oh, okay. So 2023, dealing with all these issues went to another doctor. Second opinion. I was like, Hey, maybe It's just my thyroid. Maybe my medication needs to be tweaked. I've been on this dose for a while, maybe it's just something's not working, something's not converting. And It was like, oh no, your TSH is normal. And I was like, but there's eight other things that you could test for thyroid function is there, the conversion happening? And it, was just like, No, you're fine. TSH is normal. 

[00:12:54] Daisy: So 2024 very beginning, I got the flu for the first time in my life and I know when I tell people that they laugh and they're like, oh yeah, right. But this was the first time I've ever had the flu in my life and I was so sick and I developed like this weird rash all over my body and I was like, okay, this is weird. And so finally got to feeling better. Rash was still there several weeks later, and I go to the doctor and I was like, okay, this happened during the flu. Here's all these other symptoms. Is this something, is it flu related? Is this something else going on in my body? And she's just like, oh, it's just psoriasis. Here's some medication. It didn't help. Then it's just eczema. Now it's just like, yeah, I don't know. Just you have it. I don't know what to tell you. We don't know what it is. And I'm like, okay. But I never had issues with my skin before and now I'm having issues. Weird. 

[00:13:44] Etienne: my God. 

[00:13:44] Heidi: They didn't send you to a dermatologist. 

[00:13:46] Daisy: Oh that was the dermatologist. 

[00:13:50] Etienne: shit. 

[00:13:51] Heidi: Oh my god. 

[00:13:54] Daisy: So I was like, oh, this is weird. So then I decided, okay, I'm gonna go to a functional medicine doctor. I'm gonna pay out of pocket, right? I need blood work, something, something's gotta give. I've lost so much hair at this point. The weight gain is still fluctuating, like really hard. I'm not sleeping. There's some days like the rage would be so much that I literally would just like I could just go outside and punch a tree just to get it out. Those were my thought processes over something stupid. Like, oh, I dropped a spoon on the floor and it was like the end of the world. And so I go to this functional medicine doctor and she runs this full panel and she's like, well, number one, your thyroid's not converting. Number two, your hormones are kind of, this is this, this is that I need you to get with your physician and get your medication for your thyroid tweaked that's gonna help with some of these symptoms. And I was like, great. So reach out to my primary care, get on old MyChart. Hey, here's what's going on. This is my test results, and this is a functional medicine doctor, and so my primary care physician responded with, I will not co-treat you with a chiropractor. Good luck finding an endocrinologist referral with a normal TSH and functional medicine labs are extremely skewed and look at your optimal level rather than a range 

[00:15:14] Heidi: Oh 

[00:15:14] Daisy: And, just let that sink in. They look at an optimal level, 

[00:15:18] Heidi: Yeah. 

[00:15:19] Daisy: Not a range. And so I was like wow, okay, well new primary care physician, let's find one. And finally went to one and she's just like, have you ever thought if you're in perimenopause? And I was like, wow, that has never come up. I've never even thought about this. At that point of 44, I was like, well, you know, average age of menopause is 51. They say we start around 10 years-ish or so before. So I was like, well, I guess that's realistic. And so we test my hormones. Your hormones are fine. 

[00:15:50] Etienne: Oh no. 

[00:15:51] Daisy: Oh, okay. 

[00:15:52] Etienne: no. 

[00:15:53] Daisy: So again, scale is still climbing. I'm doing like strict keto at this point. I am in ketosis. I'm peeing on the strips, like my body is hard ketosis, and I'm gaining weight. 

[00:16:08] Daisy: I'm like, okay, something is not right with my body. And finally, I just started researching and found an online provider and I was just like, hey, here's the thing. They specialize in hormonal health, perimenopause and menopause. And I was like, hey, something's going on. She's like, okay, here, I wanna send you for all these labs. I'm gonna refer you to a primary care physician that we work with that I think will listen to you. I was like, okay, great. And I was like, do I need to get my hormones tested? She's like, we'll test them. But the thing is, is our hormones fluctuate so much minute by minute, day by day. She's like, you may test normal one time and not be, she's like, but what, we do is we treat the symptoms you're having and these are all classic perimenopause. We don't treat your hormone levels. And I was like, oh, wow. And so she's like, hey, we're gonna start you off on an estradiol patch. We're gonna start you with some progesterone. This is gonna require some tweaking. So this is just a baseline to see what's happening. I went to a new physician, that she referred me to. She was super on board. She was just like, this is great. Here's some other tests we wanna run.

[00:17:10] Daisy: And this has all just happened here in the past couple of months honestly, that I finally found these providers and this new test that I just had, they tested like, my selenium, they tested my zinc, they tested my thyroid, they tested my vitamin D, my iron, things that I had never thought to test. And come to find out, weird enough, I'm low iron and I have no vitamin D at all in my body, even though I take a vitamin D and K two supplement daily, 10,000 IUs. So now, they're thinking, hey, there's genetic disorders that do not allow your vitamin D to absorb. We're gonna send you to an endocrinologist. We think this is another piece of this puzzle to get you back on track. And so I mean, it's, been a two and a half year process and it is just so difficult.

[00:18:00] Heidi: believe they didn't test your vitamin D two and a half years ago. That's insane. 

[00:18:05] Daisy: I've never, never had it tested. And, now I take 10,000 and the doctor was like, well you mean you take a thousand? I was like, well, no, I take 10,000 IUs a day. And she's just like, this isn't, that's not right. And, one thing that I learned about vitamin D in particular, it's not actually a vitamin. It's more of a hormone in our body, and it affects so many systems. And deep diving into that, then I was like, okay, what does vitamin D affect? And it's usually your immune system is the first thing to go. And I was like, okay, wow. I got the flu for the first time. Not saying that my immune system is superhero, but, I usually have a pretty good immune system, and so I was like, okay. And then they were like, the skin rash, it affects the skin, it affects that system. And so, it's kind of like this bigger picture now that i'm looking at that I'm just like, how crazy is it that I have to fight and literally go to seven different doctors just to get somebody to run test and to say, yes, you are having these symptoms. Yes, these are valid. Yes, you do not deserve to suffer. Let us help you.

[00:19:07] Etienne: Yeah, I mean, think of how many people just would stop after the first doctor and go, oh, okay. I guess it's all in my head. 

[00:19:12] Daisy: It's been such a rollercoaster and I've always had kind of spotty periods and spotting in between, and it's been months that I would spot every day and I was like okay, I don't feel like this is normal and the question that they ask all women, I feel like all women can relate no matter what you go to the doctor for, it's please tell us the date of your last period. And I was like, I'm not sure when that is because I bleed every day. So. 

[00:19:35] Etienne: That would be right now 

[00:19:36] Daisy: I'm not sure it would be currently at the moment. It's just so frustrating. And these were all female doctors, and I had talked to one primary care physician about, hey, is hormone replacement? She's like, oh, but it causes cancer and you have to have a mammogram and you have to eliminate that you have anything before I'll even talk about it with you. 

[00:19:57] Etienne: before she'll even talk. 

[00:19:58] Daisy: Oh, okay, but what if I don't wanna do that? Well then you can't have hormone replacement. And I'm like, but that is extremely outdated science. And she's like, it's not. 

[00:20:08] Daisy: And as we all know, the ones of you who are on HRT, the warning label that comes with it from my old pharmacy at Walgreens, if you read that and have no knowledge of doing your own research or that that was such an outdated study. It absolutely will freak you out. It is basically like you're gonna die. You're getting something, call your doctor if you start experiencing all these things. And I was like, I second guessed myself for a second because I let it get to me for a minute and I was like, no. I did my own research, feeling very safe about it, but I was just like, wow, this is still a thing. Okay. 

[00:20:48] Etienne: it is still a thing. 

[00:20:49] Heidi: It's almost like there's a group of people who don't want us to feel okay. 

[00:20:55] Daisy: Yeah, it's 

[00:20:56] Heidi: It feels very weird. I don't know. Like 

[00:20:59] Daisy: why would, why would. 

[00:21:01] Etienne: I dunno if it's really on purpose. I think it might be that they're still going by that study and they really do think that that's the end all and be all. And then we are not allowed to have HRT, like that's it. Or we're gonna I just cancer 

[00:21:13] Heidi: these doctors aren't keeping up with latest medical news. 

[00:21:17] Etienne: Like No, they're certainly not. Yeah. 

[00:21:20] Heidi: They've kind of retracted it. 'Cause it was faulty science. They're using women that were 70.

[00:21:27] Etienne: Yeah. I mean, I think It says the 

[00:21:28] Heidi: They shouldn't be on h 

[00:21:29] Etienne: think they said the average age was like 65 or something, and most of them were overweight. The majority 

[00:21:36] Heidi: Yeah. Oh, and, and they

[00:21:37] Etienne: That's it. Yeah. Many of them were currently or previous heavy smokers. They weren't healthy. These people weren't healthy. 

[00:21:45] Etienne: And, just like the gynecologist that I went to when I told her the symptoms that I was having and my main symptom that I was having was the mood swings and I wasn't having hot flashes. Literally no hot flashes. In the book, Estrogen Matters, it says Paxil, which is what she prescribed to me, and which I did go on because of her saying I should, it only helps hot flashes, it helps no other menopausal symptom. I wasn't even having hot flashes. So she put me on something, it doesn't even

[00:22:16] Heidi: my god.

[00:22:17] Etienne: Like what? And then I had to come off of it. So when I started my HRT, I just slowly step myself down, slowly. I was so scared. I was so scared. 'Cause if you come off that quickly, you might have to be hospitalized. And I'm not doing that. 

[00:22:30] Daisy: Well, it's amazing to me is there's so many more symptoms. Like some of the symptoms I didn't even know I were having were related to perimenopause, and I don't know if anybody else has had these. So extremely itchy ear canals. It's a thing. It is 

[00:22:43] Etienne: canals.

[00:22:44] Heidi: Oh, I have that. 

[00:22:46] Daisy: dry I Jane, are you having this as well? 

[00:22:50] Jane: Yes. I mean like, like I, 

[00:22:52] Daisy: Yes. It is so bad. 

[00:22:54] Daisy: And then phantom smells is another big thing. 

[00:22:57] Etienne: I have phantom 

[00:22:58] Daisy: I have em so bad. I, I would be laying in bed and smell cigarette smoke and I'm like, where is this coming 

[00:23:03] Etienne: Me too. Cigarette smoke. 

[00:23:05] Heidi: I, oh my God. I've been smelling it lately too. I'm like, there's no way my landlord is smoking down there. She's got asthma.

[00:23:12] Etienne: Yeah, I feel like my nose is in an ashtray sometimes. Like that's what it smells like.

[00:23:16] Heidi: yeah. 

[00:23:17] Daisy: Yeah, I, I, thought it was so bad at first. I literally was like, is this some sort of paranormal situation and am I being haunted? Because I'm like, where's the cigarette smoke coming from? I live alone. It's me and my dog, and there is nobody around us. So I'm like is there somebody outside of my window? What is happening? It's crazy. But the itchy ear canals, the like, and I know that Jane shared like the UTIs and things that can happen, and it's just all these things that nobody tells you about and it's the weird random tingling in your limbs, it's almost like neuropathy where it's like what is happening? But yeah, it's so crazy. These are random things.

[00:23:53] Etienne: Yeah, and I can't imagine that women aren't having these symptoms. I guess they're having them and they don't know. They don't have the knowledge

[00:23:59] Heidi: us as women, we've been gaslit about our health, like our entire lives, and so you get to this age and you're just like, okay, I guess I'll take it.

[00:24:10] Jane: Well, and yeah, and I think that there's a lot of like, okay, we suck it up because let's face it, we've been sucking up some weird stuff since we started our periods, right? So you're just like, okay, well I'm having like crazy cramps, but I still have gym class. It just starts young. Where you just like I gotta, this is what I gotta do. And you just deal with it. You're like, I feel like garbage today. I have a headache, I'm cramping, but I still have to take this test. And then as you get older, it's like, I still gotta put the garbage out. I still gotta go to work. I still do the things while I also have like this other discomfort. So I think that we're just kind of used to glossing over discomfort because it just kind of comes with the package, but as the discomfort then changes and morphs into other things, instead of us having this moment of commiseration, it's almost like a bonding thing. I mean, I remember we had these two French exchange students at our house one summer, and I was a teenager and I knew some French, but I wasn't like that great yet. I had taken like a year of French, but the bonding immediately that happened over our periods, like two total 

[00:25:12] Heidi: Uh, it reminds me, I just watched a TikTok, there was a trans woman who got asked for a tampon, Hey, do you have a tampon? and they were like, oh, no. But now that they're thinking about it, they're like oh, i'm gonna carry t You know, even though they don't have to use it, they're gonna, so it started off with that. And then you have a right winger going, well, I don't know what happens in ladies' restrooms, but I doubt that they're asking for tampons and 

[00:25:40] Jane: Oh my God. I've 

[00:25:40] Heidi: that. And it's like, no. And, and that's all the comments were just 

[00:25:44] Etienne: you have no idea what's happening with us.

[00:25:46] Heidi: Yeah. Did you ever talk to a woman ever before? 

[00:25:50] Jane: I have 

[00:25:51] Heidi: a sisterhood going on in the 

[00:25:52] Jane: Yes, I have gone back out to my car to get like a pad or a tampon from my glove compartment to come back into a public restroom to give one to a stranger. But I think that when it starts to morph into these other things, and it wasn't talked about as much, like when you're young, it was a rite of passage where the women in my family, we all talked about it, but this, none of them talked about it.

[00:26:13] Heidi: No, nobody. 

[00:26:15] Jane: now I'm just like, wait, what? So, because.

[00:26:18] Heidi: this out on our own. 

[00:26:19] Jane: Thank God for girlfriends our own age 'cause as we're all going through this together, then we're talking about it. And you guys have educated me and like, and now I know, like the itchy ear. I haven't told anybody about my itchy ear canals. This has been going on for two fucking years. And i'm just like, what is happening? And I, go to the ENT and I'm like, is there something in 

[00:26:37] Etienne: know your age and go, you have it. How old are you? Like why are they not putting two and two together? 

[00:26:44] Jane: No. They were just like, well, no, I think that there isn't like, this cross, it almost makes me think of, 'cause I work in a corporate environment currently, and there's a lot of they call it silos. Like, they're all in the silos, right? And so every doctor is kind of like in their lane and they're not always treating the whole person and not thinking like, okay, you're a woman of a certain age, you've already said I, I mean, I've told all my doctors, like I am perimenopausal and I'm not really that thrilled with it, to be honest. But they're not saying, oh, well this is also a thing. Occasionally they do. My OB-GYN was like, yeah, there's these weird things. I didn't think to tell her about my itchy ear canal though, but I'm going to next time I'll be like do you have, because she is also open about her stuff too. So many weird phantom things. But the doctors, I think that that's why, interestingly, Daisy, that when you finally got answers, you went to a functional practitioner. So functional medicine, integrative medicine, even the terms functional and integrative, like, let's look at the whole person here and try to put together a picture, because they weren't just saying, oh, let's throw some other stuff at you that's only about your hormones, as they relate to menopause and perimenopause. They were looking at your thyroid. They were looking at your vitamin D levels. They were looking at the whole panel, and the whole person. That's the key.

[00:28:04] Daisy: Well, I think it's so important and it's like we have all these random symptoms, like who would've thought itchy ear canals, right? But when you learn that estrogen affects over 400 functions in the body, it's amazing to think that, well, yeah, 400 functions, that seems to be, it could be anything. And so it's, there's just so much disregard for it. It's like, oh, well you're fine. 

[00:28:26] Daisy: I even asked my mom, you brought up the generational thing. I was like, mom, why didn't you tell me perimenopause was so bad? She's like, I don't remember 

[00:28:32] Etienne: Uh, 

[00:28:33] Daisy: of these issues. And I was like, is it just that you blocked it out or are you God's chosen? I don't know. I wasn't sure. But it, it's so crazy to me that she's just like, yeah, my, it wasn't really bad. I don't really remember having a perimenopause. What exactly is that? And I'm like 

[00:28:49] Jane: Dude I remember my being a raging bitch, actually. And, and I mean, there were other things, if you're listening, mom, I'm sorry. But you know, you know how you were at that time. There were other things going on in my family at that time, but when I think about in her mid to late forties, right? Into early fifties, there was just a lot of us all just kinda looking at each other, like, did that really deserve that reaction? You know? And like, and now I'm like, I'm so sorry. I would've been a little bit more compassionate, but instead I was like, what, what is happening? But I just looked up AI overviews, looking at some of this research. Because now I'm obsessed with my itchy ear canals. But it's like during menopause, estrogen levels decline leading to a decrease in the body's natural oils and moisture production. This dryness can extend to the ears. But if you think about it, if your vagina's losing its natural ability to lubricate, like at the ready, you know, like ladies, if you, if you've never used lube before and you reach our age, you're probably gonna reach for the lube from time to time. I definitely do. Like, you gotta do it. Don't hurt yourself. Um, it's just not

[00:29:53] Etienne: It's not worth it.

[00:29:54] Jane: No, you don't be ripping and tearing down there, and that's what will happen if you're just like grinning and burying it like every other discomfort. But yeah. And, the next thing it says, Daisy, is menopause can also make the skin more sensitive, including the delicate skin. 

[00:30:09] Jane: Oh, that's what I just read. But, it talks about the, no sorry, it's the condition like inflammation and itching and rashes and weird stuff anywhere on your skin. I'm like, I didn't even put that I'm like so obsessed with just the vaginal symptoms. I'm not thinking about other skin or my ears. 

[00:30:24] Daisy: Right. That's where, it's eczema or whatever this rash was that I was having after the flu that finally went away. But that also can go back to the vitamin D, which again does drop in perimenopause, that vitamin D is something that they're like, hey, that should be tested. So, ladies, if you go get your hormones tested, make sure you're testing your vitamin D as well, and 

[00:30:45] Heidi: Yeah, I wanna speak on that because I had deep bone pain that would flare up in my right arm. It felt like something was wrong with my bones. They would ache and throb, especially when it got cold. So I was wearing leg warmers on my arm, and it was mainly my right arm, but it would be both arms sometimes. Yeah, I was wearing leg warmers, but I would go to the doctors. I went to the doctors for years about this issue. Finally, someone tested my vitamin D and it was like Daisy's. It was zero. I had no vitamin D in me. No wonder. You need that for your bones. And I'm just like why did I suffer for all these years? Just, test some vitamins, test them. Why isn't that a normal thing to test? Even on a yearly basis, let's stay on top of this. But it's wild to me. Wild

[00:31:41] Etienne: don't, they don't.

[00:31:43] Heidi: I mean, as soon as I started getting on the vitamin D, like instant relief from my arm and I'm just like, ugh.

[00:31:49] Etienne: Man, boy. Going back to Jane's symptoms though that she's been having, I did wanna read something from the book 'cause this is really crazy. So at a conference devoted to the treatment of estrogen deficiency symptoms, there's a Dr. Lila Nachtigall, I'm not sure if I'm saying her name right, I'm really sorry. She's an OB-GYN at NYU. And she said, among 

[00:32:23] Etienne: 2000 post-menopausal women in a given year, 20 will develop heart disease, 11 bone loss, six breast cancer, and three endometrial cancer. But nearly 100% will develop urogenital atrophy. And urogenital atrophy occurs gradually after the onset of the climacteric.

[00:32:30] Etienne: So what we're experiencing, the symptoms include vaginal itching, urinary burning, urinary frequency, and painful sexual intercourse. So, yeah, a hundred percent. So we were already starting this even before we started our hormone replacement. It didn't matter how far along on the spectrum we were, like how far advanced it was. It's probably why, I was having the incontinence, but I know that was the floor pelvic floor issue. But yeah, you never know. Like that might've been part of it too. 

[00:32:57] Heidi: No, it was definitely part of it. Yeah. Estrogen keeps everything firm and supple, right? Like, so when you take that away, things get a little floppy

[00:33:07] Etienne: get a little floppy that

[00:33:10] Heidi: Even the urethra, you So, yep. Definitely caused by the estrogen.

[00:33:16] Jane: I just wanna get a tube of estrogen cream and rub it on my urethra. Like right now, it's just like, well, and it was like you don't wanna wear tight pants and all this. I'm just like, okay, wear, I like live in yoga pants and I feel like right now, I just not, it's not

[00:33:30] Etienne: Oh God. So it's hurting you all the time.

[00:33:32] Jane: Yeah. I've been thinking about it, like, in this conversation I get distracted, so I'm not thinking about it, but it's been bothering me, pretty consistently for a couple of days. 

[00:33:41] Etienne: man. 

[00:33:41] Jane: So, and, uh, 

[00:33:44] Heidi: tomorrow.

[00:33:45] Jane: I don't have, I don't have an appointment. But I'm going to call and be like,

[00:33:49] Heidi: I would, yeah. And they might be able to just prescribe it right over the phone. Just tell 'em, 

[00:33:54] Jane: are, they don't do that. 

[00:33:55] Jane: They 

[00:33:56] Etienne: over the phone for this. I don't know about that.

[00:34:01] Jane: Mm-hmm. I, I am.

[00:34:02] Heidi: see them. That's so dumb. Hey, I'm the age.

[00:34:06] Jane: They need their money before 

[00:34:07] Etienne: They need their money.

[00:34:09] Jane: Write a prescription. A hun, come on, let's be 

[00:34:12] Etienne: Yeah, no, a hundred percent. Yeah. And then we'll see if it's actually covered by your insurance. I hope it is. But yeah, 

[00:34:19] Jane: will report back. Let's see what happens. And I'm hoping I'm not gonna be like Daisy and having to go like multiple doctors before someone will be like, Hey, you know,

[00:34:26] Etienne: well, up where you live, you 

[00:34:28] Jane: I believe

[00:34:28] Etienne: the go to the actual place I go to down here. So in Columbia, close to where you are, they have an office. So if you can't find a regular doctor to get this for you, you can go to that place for sure.

[00:34:39] Jane: Yes. I will take you up on that.

[00:34:41] Etienne: But I will get you that information. I will find that, 'cause I did find it really easily about the rheumatoid arthritis. 'Cause I know that was the one thing that was really keeping you, Jane, from thinking you could do HRT, of any kind.

[00:34:53] Jane: But the topical stuff is not, like if someone still does have reservations, and I honestly, I could understand why someone would have reservations, right? Because, I didn't believe it when I was reading Estrogen Matters about like, all of this pushback or being behind the times in terms of the just keeping up to Heidi, your point about like how do, how are they not up on the latest science? Especially when the Women's Health initiative came out themselves to kind of renege on some of the things that were statistically insignificant or flat out wrong with the study. And then to still go on NYU Langone, Mayo Clinic, Cleveland Clinic. I'm like, how is it, they're still saying this. And then Daisy, you were talking about the insert of the medication that you read and how horrifying it was. And they actually did address that in the book too. And I thought, and I'm the kind of person, okay, so I actually, I have obsessive compulsive disorder. Not like, oh, I like things neat. Like, I legit, I can't take a medication unless I read the insert. Right. And, when I read that part of the book, I'm like, oh my God, this is speaking to me. And when Daisy said it too, I'm like, I'm gonna be the person who reads that and cannot bring herself to go through with it, right? Because I'm like, well, there's gotta be some lingering science or they that's still saying this, or they wouldn't put it on here. So the idea for the baby step for me is they were saying, well, if it's the topical estrogen is not systemically absorbed. I'm like, okay, I just rub it, all over my vulva. Let's do it, tonight. I would do it tonight if I could. Limited, systemic absorption. 

[00:36:18] Daisy: it, it's interesting 'cause I did hear though that they are in the process of removing the black label for HRT 

[00:36:25] Etienne: Oh, thank 

[00:36:25] Daisy: Yeah. That is something that the FDA has came out with in the past couple of days. I've seen it that 

[00:36:31] Etienne: Really? Oh, the last couple days. That's 

[00:36:33] Daisy: Yes. So fingers crossed.

[00:36:36] Heidi: FDA is 

[00:36:37] Daisy: they, yeah, they're, who knows what's going on. But 

[00:36:40] Etienne: Who knows 

[00:36:42] Daisy: All I know saw they're dropping the black box 

[00:36:45] Etienne: but, it might still be on the, it might still be on the insert though, that Jane will read. So that's 

[00:36:51] Daisy: well, 

[00:36:52] Etienne: the part where she's gonna have to, 

[00:36:53] Daisy: It does matter. I mean, the estrogen and there's different delivery methods, like I'm on a patch, which I appreciate. And, the patch is, it's transdermal and so it doesn't increase the risk for the blood clots, which I really appreciated.

[00:37:06] Daisy: So, and then the progesterone, since I am still having a period, balances it out and keeps the uterine from getting too, thick. So, there are different options and different methods for everybody. It's just talk to your doctor, have that conversation. 

[00:37:18] Etienne: Yes, cause it's important. All the things that it can protect you from that you don't even realize. I did do like a final little word here on things that HRT can do for you. There are good reasons to believe that estrogen helps maintain cognitive abilities, prevents both cardiovascular disease and stroke, and reduces the risk of Alzheimer's disease. But then, Robert Lobo, professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology at the Columbia College of Physicians and Surgeons, he conducted a medical review in 2017 that showed a 20 to 40% reduction in mortality rates for women on HRT. That's consistent across all scientific methods. So that means all the studies, observational meta-analyses, RCTs, I think that's random. Yeah. Controlled trials. The WHI itself also said this, and a Cochrane meta-analysis of randomized trials and observational studies. So all of that, we can have a 20 to 40% reduction in mortality rates just overall. Overall less death. Or we get to live 20 to 40% longer than we would if we weren't taking HRT, I guess. 

[00:38:24] Heidi: Also having better lives, 

[00:38:26] Etienne: yeah. It's quality of

[00:38:27] Heidi: because 

[00:38:29] Etienne: Like, do you wanna walk around with like, your vagina's gotten all shriveled up to nothing. You're peeing yourself at any time.

[00:38:36] Heidi: Well, just the hot flashes and not 

[00:38:38] Etienne: I mean, the hot flashes eventually go away. Like those eventually go away. But the No, the brain fog, will stay. That will stay. Your brain's gonna 

[00:38:46] Heidi: Yeah. That's 

[00:38:47] Etienne: literally all this bad stuff's gonna happen. And your heart, the estrogen that was protecting your cardiovascular system is now, after menopause, you don't have that anymore. If you're not on HRT. Estrogen relaxes your blood vessels.

[00:38:59] Etienne: Which is why it is dangerous if you aren't currently on HRT and you wait till 10 years after menopause to start it, that's where the danger comes in. Unless you go and get tested to make sure you don't have plaque in your system, that's gonna break off once the estrogen relaxes your vasculature again. So, um, yeah.

[00:39:17] Heidi: That's why getting on it ASAP. My aunts went through it without any kind of help. Like they can't go back. They can't go on it now. There's no way to catch up, you had to do it when you're in actual perimenopause or

[00:39:32] Etienne: And I think one thing, maybe it's different for the generation before ours, the baby boomer generation, maybe their symptoms just aren't as bad, but it just, I don't, I dunno if I a hundred percent believe that. I have a neighbor who, I mean she didn't complain. I mean, I told her what my symptoms were when I was having them. She didn't complain about like what she must have had when she was going through it because she's way past it. But she does complain about weight gain and how she feels like she has to eat next to nothing or she just holds all this belly fat, which we know your belly gets bigger to get more fat in it so it'll actually produce its own estrogen. So that's why postmenopausal or perimenopausal women start getting that little freaking baby belly, that belly that they just can't get rid of. And mine's finally going away. But the people where I get my hormones, they said it takes two years of being on replacement hormones for that belly to go all the way away. Your body will not believe that it can let go of that fat until it's had the replacements for two solid years. So I'm waiting for that two year mark. Never had the belly before. Makes me mad. 

[00:40:36] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:40:36] Etienne: I mean, it's almost nonexistent now, but it just still makes me crazy. Yeah.

[00:40:41] Jane: But Etienne, when you talk about your neighbor, the other generation, not just not complaining as much. I really do think that that's the thing. Gen X is not the first generation to be like we're just all having these symptoms anew, or I think that we're like the first generation to bitch about it loudly. And I'm happy that we are because we're gonna then help other people. And then, my daughter's not gonna have a rough time when it comes time because I talk to her about this now. I'm like, Hey man, I really hate to tell you this, I wasn't joking when I'm like, I wish confetti would just shoot out of it. So maybe we have a party where we have like an inflatable vagina and at least have confetti pop out of that because that's what should happen. But that's not what happens. You just go like in this weird puberty and reverse process and there's a whole different other set of symptoms. So I do tell her. That's why I was joking with her. I was hanging out with her this weekend and I haven't had my period in a couple of months and she had her period. And I'm like, don't hug me too much. You're gonna be contagious. Everything's all wackadoo now. I have no idea when I'm gonna get it, when it's gonna go away, when it's gonna hide for a couple months, it gets weird. So, I talk about it with her so that this is not gonna be a surprise for her. And even with the UTI thing, I did tell her what was going on with me 'cause we were on a road trip and I was just like, I feel like I have to go to the bathroom, but I don't think I do. And like now it doesn't even feel like I have to go to the bathroom, it's just like irritated. and I told her, I was like, I just read that this is the thing that happens. And I said, so if this happens to you, talk about it so that you get care. I'm like, I'm going to have a conversation with my doctor about it this week And get to the bottom of it. so I think all of you for sharing what's going on with you And that hopefully someone listening it'll maybe inspire them to go talk to their doctor too. And I hope Daisy not like as many doctors as you had to talk to. That's bonkers. 

[00:42:26] Daisy: It's absolutely crazy to have so many different people. 'Cause then it's just you sharing your symptoms over and over and over. and over. And so it got to where I just had a document that I would carry with me just so I wouldn't forget anything. 'Cause I was so scared that if I missed one piece of the puzzle, it would change somebody's idea of what they should be looking at. And so it is important and I love that this generation of women is talking about it. Even at work I work in a corporate environment too, and it's like, oh, you know, I'll forget something. I was like, oh, it's the perimenopause brain today. And you know, just trying to make it like it's a joke. And so many of us around the same age are all laughing and joking about it, but at least it's kind of like that bonding, you know, that we've always had. And so it helps so much to talk about it, to listen, to know that there are people out there, even online, if you don't wanna go to a doctor, there are online providers now that are specializing in perimenopause and menopause. It's so easily accessible if you just take that step. 

[00:43:17] Etienne: And thank you so much, Daisy, for coming on the show today.

[00:43:20] Daisy: Thank y'all so much for having me and for just making this a topic that y'all care about and are sharing. I think it, it's gonna help, I hope so many women that are listening.

[00:43:28] Jane: Well, we're wishing everyone good health in perimenopause and beyond, and happy that there are resources out there to check them out.

[00:43:36] Heidi: That's our show you've been listening to The Women are Plotting. If you have a story you'd like to share or have any comments, we'd love to hear from you. Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com and of course you can find us on all the socials. Thanks, and until next time, be safe and be excellent to each other.