You're Not Dangerous: Understanding Harm OCD

What if the thoughts that frighten you the most are the very reason you know they're not who you are?

In this deeply moving and educational episode of The Women Are Plotting, Etienne Rose Olivier, Heidi Willis, and Jane Gari welcome author Kim Conrey, co-author of the memoir You're Not a Murderer, You Just Have Harm OCD, to explore one of the most misunderstood forms of obsessive-compulsive disorder. Together, they discuss what harm OCD really is, why intrusive thoughts are so terrifying, and how they differ from genuine intentions or desires.

Kim shares her family's journey supporting her child through harm OCD while also revealing her own lifelong experiences with obsessive-compulsive disorder. Jane opens up about her personal struggles with OCD, intrusive thoughts, compulsions, and the therapies that helped her regain control of her life. The conversation also addresses common misconceptions about OCD, the importance of finding qualified mental health professionals, exposure and response prevention (ERP) therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, and why humor, honesty, and compassion can play an important role in recovery.

Whether you're living with OCD, supporting someone who is, or simply want to better understand mental health, this heartfelt conversation offers hope, practical insights, and a powerful reminder that intrusive thoughts do not define your character—and that effective help is available.

Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com, and find us on all the socials. Be safe and be excellent to each other.

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

[00:00:00] Jane: And this is a running joke in my house 'cause my husband was here through that whole mouse OCD thing and he had to talk me down and be like, you're not gonna, it's gonna be okay. He'll see me looking at the lint thing on the floor and he knows from the look on my face that I think it's piece of mouth shit. And he will start singing to me like, do you guys remember? 'cause we're all Gen X here. Remember that Tootsie Roll jingle from years ago. Like whatever it is, I think I see becomes a tootsie roll to me. Okay. So my husband will be like, would, would, he will do that, but he'll replace Tootsie roll with mouse turd, and I will ju I think he's just like a big, a mouse turd to Yeah. That's how he sings to I will start laughing so hard. And it snaps me out of it. 

[00:00:44] Etienne: Welcome listeners. This is The Women Are Plotting. I'm Etienne Rose Olivier and I'm here with my friends and co-hosts, Heidi Willis and Jane Gari.

[00:00:59] Etienne: On today's episode, we're gonna be talking about harm OCD and we have a special guest with us. Her name is Kim Conrey and the name of her memoir that she wrote with her daughter, Finn Conrey, is You're Not a Murderer, You Just Have Harm OCD.

[00:01:13] Etienne: So we are gonna be talking about her book and harm OCD specifically, and probably just OCD in general, perhaps. I think we all have some kind of experience with it. But my fun fact for today, not again, fun, sorry, interesting fact for today is that the average person sees three therapists before finding the right fit for their mental health needs.

[00:01:34] Etienne: And I think that was really telling, because me personally, when I was trying to find a therapist, I did not know that they're not all great. I kind of thought they all were. I just need one. So when I went to the first one for when I was having problems, well, I had problems for a long time, but when I finally went to one, I did get some insights.

[00:01:54] Etienne: But I wasn't feeling like I got anything more than that initial insight. I didn't feel like anything was changing. So I did stay with that person for probably longer than I should have before then going on to the next person. And luckily that second person was the fit, so I got lucky there. But I think that's a common occurrence. I think Jane was gonna go next on her probably interesting fact for today. 

[00:02:15] Jane: It was an interesting and actually completely piggybacks off of what you just said, um, which is that, no, not that, not redundancy, but just adjacent because the average delay between symptom onset and treatment for OCD is 11 years.

[00:02:30] Etienne: Whoa.

[00:02:31] Jane: And I hope that that gap closes, it gets shorter and shorter as more people become aware of mental health disorders. I think that a lot has changed as us Gen Xers get older. Like when we were younger, this was something people didn't talk about. And so in early childhood when OCD can often start presenting itself or in early adulthood even, you know, by the time you figure out like what it is, I, I understood stand that 11 years, but I hope that nowadays that that's gonna shrink for people because if you have OCD, you probably are gonna go on WebMD and figure out like maybe what your stuff is and then go talk to a therapist and get a diagnosis. 

[00:03:09] Jane: And I do have a secondary fact because I, I just found so many that I just found intriguing. But this one, I thought made me feel a little bit vindicated in some of my experiences that the World Health Organization ranks OCD among the top 10 most disabling illnesses worldwide in terms of your loss of quality of life and productivity. And if I'm in a loop, like I said, I can consume hours per day and intrusive thoughts and compulsions, and I was like, okay, wow. Okay. That makes me feel a little less nutty. I'm gonna use, I guess, you know, just colorful terms. 'Cause I'm an older lady, so just cut me some slack our younger listeners, because sometimes I just thought like, this is ridiculous that I'm spending this much time on this loop in my head. So reading that made me feel seen and made me feel better actually, even though it's not a fun fact at all. Heidi, what is your not fun slash interesting fact about OCD?

[00:04:02] Heidi: I found a list of different things. But, it comes from Kim's book as well, the fact that your daughter wasn't a neat freak. And so that's the way that she was like, oh, it's not OCD, obviously. And it's because of the way TV shows and movies are portrayed it as being like neat freak and you're clean all the way. And, what's wild about that is I kind of recognize myself in some of these things. And because I'm not a clean freak, I've always just been like, there's no way I have OCD even though I recognize some of these looping patterns in the doomsday, you know, and having to do stuff, like having to have things happen on both sides of the body or you don't feel right. Yeah, it's just wild. Like I recognize a lot of myself in some of the stuff, and it's wild to me that there's probably tons of people out there kind of suffering from similar things and they just write it off, like, I'm not a neat freak. I can look at something and it's off balance and it doesn't bother me. And so it can't be OCD, but obviously if it's looping

[00:05:10] Etienne: Do you think now that you have OCD perhaps Heidi?

[00:05:13] Heidi: I don't know, like I, I'm out to just talk to somebody, but like I said, I recognize some of the things. Like when she was talking about having to do things on both sides of the, you know, if one leg gets it, the other leg has to get it. Everything has to be equal. I used to just go, oh, is my Libra in me? 

[00:05:29] Kim: Yeah, and what you said about thinking that, oh, you must not have it because you're not neat. That's one of the reasons when I was trying to get Finn to go to a therapist, they said no in high school, the health class, the teacher told them that people with OCD have to have things neat. So mom, there's no way I have OCD and I said, Finn, it's about, and oh, I was so upset because I didn't wanna force them to go to a therapist. You know? I mean, once the child is a teenager, it gets a little more tricky 'cause they're not kids anymore and you want them to go 'cause they wanna go 'cause they're okay with going. But their health teacher said, their health teacher at the school said, oh well people with OCD want to have things neat. And I was like, oh, I can't believe they told them that 'cause that is such a stereotype and that keeps a lot of people from getting the help they need. 'Cause they think, oh well I'm not neat, so this must be something else. 

[00:06:27] Heidi: Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:28] Kim: Oh, and my not so fun fact is that half the people with OCD have looping intrusive thoughts and it's even higher with adolescents of to 70% of that group looping intrusive thoughts.

[00:06:45] Kim: And usually these intrusive thoughts aren't intrusive thoughts about rainbows and birds, they're intrusive thoughts that are scary because your brain won't fixate on something pleasant. It fixates on something you're trying to avoid, something that terrifies you. So the intrusive, looping thoughts are usually, oh God, what if I hurt somebody?

[00:07:06] Kim: Oh God, what if the speed hump I ran over was actually a person and I need to retrace my route home from work to make sure there's not somebody lying in a ditch. It's terrifying things. Oh God, what if I just pick a knife up in the kitchen, and then it loops in their head. And the reason it loops is 'cause they're trying so hard to make it stop looping.

[00:07:25] Kim: The minute you try not to think about something, guess what you're thinking about it. And yeah, the neurotypical person might be at a scenic overlook and if they had a weird thought like, well, if I shove somebody off, if nobody would ever know, there's no one else out here, they might think, Ugh. Well that's a weird thought. Go on about their day. Never think about it again. 'Cause they realize it's a goofy thought and they're a good person. So no big deal They, you know, they don't think about it again. But a person whose brain is wired for OCD, if they had that passing goofy thought, it wouldn't seem goofy to them. They would fixate on it, latch onto it, and it could torment them for the next five, 10 years.

[00:08:03] Kim: Wake them up at 3:00 AM with panic attacks going, oh God, I can never go to a scenic overlook again. 'cause I might shove somebody off of it and then they'll go to friends, family, seeking validation. Please tell me I'm a good person. How do you know I'm a good person? How can I prove I'm a good person? Are you sure I'm a good person?

[00:08:22] Kim: Ask it over and over and over again. Or if they had a bad thought about shoving someone off a scenic overlook while they're touching a lamp, they might have to replace it with a good thought while they're touching a lamp. But if they let go of the lamp and the bad thought comes back, they have to touch the lamp again.

[00:08:37] Kim: And so they might touch a lamp 20 times. That's how they're repetitive actions get into OCD. Really sad thing though, is if you're someone who has OCD and you had some outward manifestations first, like with hand washing where they would wash their hands till they cracked and bled, then when you have intrusive thoughts, you might be able to connect the intrusive thoughts to the hand washing or the door checking or getting up and going to the bathroom 20 times, even though you don't really have to go pee.

[00:09:08] Kim: But if you didn't know. That you had outward manifestations of OCD, you might think, oh, maybe I'm turning into an evil person when, oh God bless 'em, it's the looping thoughts of intrusive thoughts of harm OCD, but they might not know that if they didn't have some sort of outward manifesting OCD first.

[00:09:28] Kim: And that's when it really concerns me and the suicide rate is higher, and that's where it really terrifies me. It makes me more determined to get the word out. 

[00:09:39] Jane: So Kim, first of all, thank you again for joining us, and again, Etty introduced it, the memoir, You're Not a Murderer, You Just Have Harm OCD, and it's a really unique story about OCD because you're telling it through the lens of both a mother and a child and then recognizing the disorder in yourself and in your child. And I just as a mom, I realized that I really connected with this book so much on so many levels. But I would love it if you could just give the audience just a, in a nutshell, like what is that story? What inspired you to actually then bring it to life and how you wrote it with your child? I think that it's a beautiful undertaking. 

[00:10:18] Kim: Sure. Of course. Thank you so much. And I'm so, so honored and happy for the chance to get to spread awareness about OCD and intrusive thoughts. 'Cause It's so tormenting, and that's one of the reasons why I wanted to write this, because I normally write fiction and it's total escapism and it's fun. And these worlds that I'm writing and escaping into, they're fun. Even when I'm backed myself into a corner. But, writing this, it was hard. And there were places where I would have a little panic attack and all when I would get to it.

[00:10:49] Kim: Finn started showing signs of OCD really early, and by the way, the book starts out with she pronouns. And then going forward when Finn was in high school, they discovered at the very height of their OCD and intrusive thoughts, they also realized that they were queer. And so three quarters of the way through the book, the pronouns change from she to they.

[00:11:16] Kim: And so, yeah, if coming out isn't difficult enough or if having OCD and horrific intrusive thoughts isn't difficult enough, let's all do that and come out at the same time. So, yeah, but I wanted to write the book because I had dealt with it when I was younger and I didn't know what it was, growing up in the Eighties mainly. Well, for one people did not wanna talk about things like that. It was considered a source of shame more back then, Seventies, Eighties, and even into the Nineties a bit. Well, and depending on who you meet today, it might still be. But, back then I realized that I was having these intrusive, looping thoughts that were scaring me and I didn't know what it was.

[00:11:59] Kim: And I grew up in a very small town religious upbringing where if you had neurological disorders, you might get a demon prayed out of you and, poor Finn, if they were in that church with the looping thoughts of harm OCD and couple that with the queer, they would've had demons prayed out of them for two reasons.

[00:12:20] Kim: And so I just wanted the book to be one, a safe space, a real space, a true space, and a raw space. I mean, because that's what it was. It's terrifying to watch your child sitting in the floor dry heaving saying If the things I'm seeing in my head are true, then I don't deserve to live. Mom, we have the death penalty for people who do things like the things that are looping through my head over and over again.

[00:12:52] Kim: And I would say things like, well, thoughts aren't things sweetie. It's just a thought. People have weird, random thoughts all the time. But I knew, I knew because it had happened to me when I was 13. And then again, when I was 30, after Finn was born, there was something about the hormones after the child's born.

[00:13:13] Kim: And by the way, bring this up now. The hormonal drop that a woman experiences after birth is even greater than that of menopause. Yet we don't support women. I don't believe enough when they go through these changes in their life, childbirth, menopause, all of that. But that's another podcast, I'm sure. But, I had gone through it and then so I noticed it when it was happening to Finn and the helplessness I felt as a child going through it.

[00:13:40] Kim: And then even worse to me, the helplessness I felt as a parent, because mothering had always felt instinctual to me. And, I guess I was lucky in that way, but then when Finn was going through this, it wasn't instinctual anymore. I couldn't fix it and it just felt so helpless and so horrific and I would, at 3:00 AM going, I don't know how to help my child.

[00:14:04] Kim: And so I wanted to write this book not only for the people suffering from harm OCD, but also for the people who are the caregivers of people with OCD and intrusive thoughts. And I remember taking this book to critique group, as I was writing it. And, someone said to me, well, isn't this book supposed to be about Finn? But there's a lot about you in here. And I remembered saying the caregiver's life keeps happening while they're taking care of this person, they're getting divorced, getting depressed, all these things are happening to them while they're having to help this other person through this journey.

[00:14:45] Kim: Their life didn't stop. They're going through this horrible thing too. And especially now, so many of us are in what they call the sandwich generation, where we're taking care of children and taking care of adult parents, and we forget to take care of ourselves and we're crumbling.

[00:15:02] Kim: And I wanted to portray the caregivers view in the book too and offer hope to them as well. But I just wanted people to know, if you're having these intrusive thoughts, you are not evil. You're not a bad person. It is a neurological condition. It's treatable. It's diagnosable. You can get the appropriate help and you can live a life. I mean, you'll always have OCD, but you can live a life where you can get treatment that can bring it down to a whisper so that your every waking moment is not dominated by these things. And if you're out there and you're feeling this and you're scared, trust me, there is help for you. You can be free. There's help for you. And, I believe it was Etty that was saying, it takes so long often to find the right help. ' Cause I think it's worth mentioning that there are a lot of therapists who are really great therapists, right?

[00:16:00] Kim: And they may even treat OCD, but they might not have a lot of experience with intrusive thoughts. So I think it's really important to find a therapist that's really good at treating chronic intrusive thoughts. And I was so fortunate to find the international OCD Foundation, I-O-C-D-F. You can punch in your zip code and it will find therapists in your area who are experienced with treating OCD and intrusive thoughts. And we found our therapists through there and they have 30 years treating specifically OCD with intrusive thoughts.

[00:16:36] Etienne: Wow, that's a lot of experience. That would really make me feel like I found the right person if they had that much 

[00:16:41] Kim: Yeah, and it was great. 'cause the first thing they said, 

[00:16:44] Jane: I wish that I read this.

[00:16:47] Kim: The first thing they said was Finn, as horrible as this seems to you, as awful as is, they said, I have treated people who have been afraid they're a murderer, pedophile, maniac, that they're the serial killer. And I said, I'm telling you, it's intrusive thoughts. You are okay. And I think it's so important to mention that studies have shown that people with intrusive thoughts are no more likely to commit violence. And in fact, studies have even shown that they are less likely to commit violent acts than the general population. They have found that they're less aggressive, they're more compassionate.

[00:17:31] Kim: And I was doing a panel at the Dahlonega Book Fest. It's a book fest here in Georgia with an ER psychiatrist. He was the intake psychiatrist in an ER and he said that they don't know if it's a fail safe that happens when the brain is forming. And because people with clinical OCD, the brain there some places thinner in others, so you can usually see this on an MRI when they scan the brain and he said he doesn't know if it's a fail safe that's put in place when the body's forming, it notices that the brain is wired for OCD, that it does this rebound effect where it makes the person extra compassionate and empathetic, such that they would never act on an intrusive thought or if it's that the person is just already very compassionate and empathetic, so it causes them to have intrusive thoughts because once they have a scary thought, they're so compassionate that they spend all their energy trying to banish it, banish it, banish it, banish it, and what they're in a loop. And so then they have intrusive thoughts.

[00:18:32] Kim: And we were talking earlier about how the brain's an interesting place. It's glitchy. And so a lot of times when I'm pitching the book at a Barnes and Noble or something, you can kind of see people who don't have OCD, but they kinda wanna read it, but they're scared to say they wanna read it.

[00:18:47] Kim: I often tell 'em it's okay to be interested in it just for the sake of being interested. 'cause the brain is an interesting place. All the different ways that it can glitch. So it's okay to just be interested in neurodiverse subjects and brain anomalies and 'cause they kind of are looking for permission to, just because they're interested and I'm like, Hey, anybody that reads it, whether they have OCD or not, it's informing more people and spreading the word. That way, if there's another kid out there like I was at 13 in the corner of their room not knowing what the hell is wrong with them, rocking back and forth going, am I an evil person? Oh, no, no. Stop thinking it. Stop thinking it. And so scared. If we can inform more people. That's great. I hope everybody reads it, you know? Yeah.

[00:19:35] Jane: I mean, I wish that I had read it when I was younger, just because I didn't know, like I wasn't diagnosed until I was an adult. But I would hear it and I like people talk about it and I'm like, wait a second. Like, I was like, I think this is exactly what my deal is, and it made me feel less crazy, you know? But did talk to a therapist when I was at college and was diagnosed, but then I didn't do all the things that I was supposed to do. I did some other things like self-medicating and things that weren't, as they, they did help me, honestly, if I'm being truly honest. But, then later I went back to therapy as an adult.

[00:20:11] Jane: And for me, meditation helped tremendously. But one of the experiences that Finn said she had that really resonated with me when I read it and then when I was rereading it a couple of weeks ago, was when Finn was talking about praying accidentally to Slender Man. 

[00:20:29] Kim: Yeah. 

[00:20:30] Jane: And I know, we're all just kind of like, it sounds insane, right? But I used to do like weird things that were, I wrote about it actually in my memoir because I ended up having to mutter like this really blasphemous phrase under my breath. And I honestly, to this day, I'm getting all prickly just thinking about what I used to say, and it was a terrible, terrible thing.

[00:20:49] Jane: Like, I'm not even gonna repeat it here. And I've said some fucked up things on this podcast, but I can't even repeat what I used to say in my head. But then sometimes I would have to say it out loud, just whispering it. And I was saying it in the middle of class and there was a girl next to me who overheard me, and she was like, what did you just say?

[00:21:05] Jane: And I was like, that's it. Everyone's gonna know, you know, Jane's crazy. And I really got nervous that this was gonna be the end of me. And she didn't go around, which maybe she told people, I don't know. But you would've thought it was middle school that everybody would've known, but nobody ever came up to me and said it. But they definitely heard me muttering something, but she heard exactly what I said. And I just felt like, okay, that's it. I'm going. I am a hundred percent going to hell and then that was then the new thing.

[00:21:30] Jane: Right now, I'm gonna hell. So now I gotta say the Lord's Prayer even more than I usually do, which was just 21 times every night before I went, everything was 21. I don't know what that was about. And it was checking the alarm clock 21 times, checking under my bed and in the closet 21 times each checking my door that it was all the way closed.

[00:21:49] Jane: Uh, 21 times and saying the Lord's Prayer 21 times and turning the light on and off 21 times. And then if I felt like, oh, did I really all over again? And also taking all the pictures off the walls and turning them towards the wall, because I was convinced, like they were gonna start talking to me.

[00:22:04] Jane: Just weird stuff. And my family saw me doing this and they were just like, stop doing that. What, what are you doing? You know? And then I was like, oh, well they know something's wrong with me, so I should probably go wash my hands. I don't know what, you know. And then that was just, then we started all over again and wait till everybody's asleep.

[00:22:21] Jane: Start it again. So no one's watching me and telling me to stop because like I was convinced if I didn't do these things I was going to hell for the other weird thing that I had said earlier in the day. So I say all of that just to say like when the way that you described things, I was like, oh my gosh, this woman is in my head and the things that would trigger and I think it's very helpful what you'd said about getting help and what you say in your epilogue of the book that these things never go away, but you figure out how to live and cope and manage right, by getting the professional help, but that there are things that can trigger it. And when I became a mom, and you talked about that hormone thing, like I had gone really plateaued. I was doing really, really well. And as soon as my daughter was born, I was like, I'm gonna drop her. This is the thought that I was like, I'm gonna drop her, I'm gonna drop her somewhere terrible, like on the patio where I have a concrete floor and her head is gonna break open like an egg. The like an egg thing, just like how I was like in her brain.

[00:23:13] Jane: So like, it was just really graphic, you know? And I was like, that's it. I'm like, I'm gonna break this thing that I brought into the world that I love more than I knew it was possible to love, and I'm going to accidentally kill her. So then I finally just had to tell my husband, because he was like, why aren't you coming out on the porch? You love the porch. I'm like, because I feel like if I go out on the porch, I'm going to kill our daughter. And he was like, what? And when I would say it out loud. And when you talk about these things, and this is one of the powers I feel like of writing it out, and of reading your story made me feel like, yes, let's make these loops have less power.

[00:23:47] Jane: I feel like sometimes if you can talk to a therapist about it and you don't wanna enlist like your family to talk to them all the time about it because they're already managing whatever you're doing in the kitchen or the bathroom, or it's like checking the alarm 21 times, which my husband had to deal with when we were first together.

[00:24:00] Jane: He was just like, what are you doing? I was like, You don't understand. I have to do this. I'm really sorry. And now I don't do that at all anymore. Like, I'll maybe check it twice. If anything, he checks the alarm more than I do. But it just gave it less power over me to give voice to like, name what it was, recognize my brain was different, learn some tricks and tips and management techniques, whether it's c-B-D-C-B-T, or meditation for me is a huge, huge help and it just kind of takes that away. Also, if it does help to have a therapist, like you said, telling you like you're not a bad person. This is just your harm OCD talking to you and it doesn't define you and it's just a thought.

[00:24:43] Jane: And what you said earlier though, about our brains maybe being wired differently because maybe we actually are just innately more compassionate. That made me feel a little bit good about myself. I'm like, I'm compassionate, so I'm not gonna hurt anybody. I'm certainly not gonna hurt my daughter. I would kill other people for my daughter. May this never be used against me in court. But i'm just saying, don't go for my kid. Mama Bear is here. I would never, ever harm her on purpose. And so it just, yeah, hearing these messages though, from your book. And from the science that you're citing, is a comfort and if anyone is out there listening, and this is how your brain is wired just know, like you're not a bad person. 

[00:25:22] Kim: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And I love how candid you are and as you're ticking those off it. Oh, it's like you were reading Finn's list of things. 'Cause Finn also had the thing where thinking maybe, they had these posters of Zelda, Legend of Zelda, and they were thinking that. Oh, well I know that they can't see me through the posters, but what if they can, and maybe I should take them down off the wall. Kinda like you were saying about turning these things around. And then I think that's where diagnosis can sometimes get mixed too. 'Cause somebody might say, oh, is that schizophrenia? Or something else, you know? But that can also be a form of OCD going, I know that's not true, but what if it is you know? And like you were saying, being afraid, you drop your daughter and everybody has that passing thought, but when it starts consuming you, I think that's when it goes over into OCD territory and I just love how candid and honest you are.

[00:26:21] Kim: And that can be tough. I mean, once you develop a habit of this honesty and being candid and honest with yourself and others, it gets easier. But I know when I was writing book, there were times when I didn't even realize that I wasn't being honest. For example, Finn was just being really honest about a lot of the things they went through and I was letting them spill the beans.

[00:26:47] Kim: But then I was probably halfway through the book when I realized, oh, I've let them tell all this really deeply honest things about themselves that some people just wouldn't even share. And I did not tell what my intrusive thought was when I was 13. How could I let child tell all their stuff that they were scared of, all the things about, oh no, what if I throw my sister over the banister on the stairs? Oh no. What if I were to, you know, this, that or the other? But I am not gonna be honest? I'm gonna let them spill their guts and oh, I'm gonna keep all my scary, intrusive thoughts that might make somebody think I'm dangerous or weird to myself.

[00:27:35] Kim: When I realized I was doing that. I was mortified and I was like, okay, Kim, no, you cannot let your child tell all their dirt. You're not, it is not dirt. It, it's harm OCD neurological condition. But, yeah, when I was 13, my sister had a baby that I just loved with all my heart. He was so sweet. I just loved him dearly.

[00:27:58] Kim: We spent so much time together. I babysitted him constantly, but that's when I started having intrusive thoughts. And I think it's often the person you love the most because you wanna protect them so bad. That's where the scary thought comes. Oh, what if so I would, I had this thought, I guess I'd seen a movie or the news or something.

[00:28:20] Kim: I was like, oh no, what if I just go over there and put a pillow on his face? It scared me so bad. I had never heard of OCD and certainly not intrusive thoughts, and I still didn't know what it was until like, I dunno, 15, 20 years later, I didn't know what that was and it tormented me for probably three or four months playing over and over again in my head.

[00:28:43] Kim: And I was crying and praying and just, it was horrific. And then I was afraid to put in the book. And this is like truth and writing for you writers out there. You know when you read a book and you feel like the writer's holding something back, you just get that feeling that they're not. Being quite authentic.

[00:29:01] Kim: I realized that I was not telling the dirty truth, that I withheld treatment from Finn for a little while because I didn't know that intrusive thoughts, I mean, I had Googled it, but I didn't know it was such a thing. And that therapists were not scared of people with intrusive thoughts and that they realized that it was just neurological condition.

[00:29:28] Kim: They're not gonna hurt anybody. But for a while, I didn't encourage Finn to tell the therapist the exact nature of the intrusive thoughts because I was afraid. 'Cause I had Finn and Bray, my youngest are 10 years apart, I was afraid that they would take that family and children's services would show up at my door and take the baby away because Finn was having these intrusive thoughts. And it dawned on me you didn't put that in the book.

[00:29:54] Kim: How dare you not put that in the book. Out there right now in this country, well, all over the world, you know that there are parents who have an older child, it has some sort of something going on, it doesn't have to be OCD, it could be schizophrenia, it could be bipolar, it could be any kind of thing. And they're afraid for that child to get help or to tell somebody because they have younger children and they don't know that what, they might lose those younger children and have to separate them or whatever.

[00:30:24] Kim: And they're scared too. And I'm not gonna put that in the book? I'm gonna hold that back because I'm scared of what people will think of me? I sort of withheld treatment from Finn because I was scared. And I mean, looking back on it now, I realize, well, it's understandable. I mean, people I think understand that. But I was embarrassed too. I was ashamed that I didn't, it was tough as a mother that I didn't know how to navigate that better, you know? But, we have forgiveness for ourselves. 'Cause life is just fricking hard like that. Right. But Yeah. 

[00:31:00] Heidi: Yeah, you need to give yourself grace because you didn't know. You were doing the best that you can. You could at the time you were, you know, trying to help her and the whole family, the best you could, so I would give yourself grace.

[00:31:13] Etienne: Yeah. And since I know that, you did include that in the book, because I remember reading that, that you were afraid that the therapists were not gonna understand the thoughts or the intrusive thoughts that Finn was having. Did Finn learn that when she read the book herself? Like the parts that you wrote, or did you tell her ahead of time about, you know.

[00:31:30] Kim: Right. That was so interesting. I think anytime you have a co-author you can have challenges certainly. But I think that was one of the bigger challenges was one, having Finn read all the things that had been written because just kinda having to relive it when it was so raw for them. ' Cause they had just gone through the toughest part of their therapy and they were on the mend, you might say, I don't know if that's the right word, because never really rid of it, but you learn how to manage it. But, just having them read that it was really hard. And then they came to me and they said, mom. When they finally read it and it took forever for them to read it and their therapist saying, I think this would be good for you to go back in and read it. Cause, I wanted Finn to read it 'cause I was talking about them, and if they had issues with something I wrote, I wanted to know so that we could talk about it. Get it out there. If you're mad at me about something I wrote, let's go and discuss it now. I don't want you to read it 10 years from now when you feel like you're better able to process it and then say, why did you say that? But yeah, they read that and they read a lot of the depression I was going through and everything, and they said, I feel sick. I feel sick. I had no idea that you were going through all this and that you felt this way. I said. It doesn't matter.

[00:32:45] Kim: And most parents feel this way, you know, we just want you to be okay. Don't even worry about that. I say, yeah, but I do. And I knew they would 'cause they're like that. They're so sweet. But yeah, that was hard. That really hit them hard when they did read that. Yeah. 

[00:32:59] Etienne: That breaks my heart. Yeah, I mean, reading the book and reading about Finn's story and your story. She just seems, you both seem like such sweet people that I really haven't met you before today, except for the book and I've never encountered Finn in real life. But I can just imagine that just standing in a room with the two of you, I can just see that I could probably feel the empathy and the love coming off of both of you. It just has to be like that. I'm 

[00:33:27] Kim: Oh, thank you. They're an incredible soul. I'm so proud of them. They're just, they're something else. I was thinking the other day, man, how did I manage to raise such a sweet, empathetic, compassionate child, man? Love that kid. Oh, kid. They're 24 

[00:33:41] Jane: Because you modeled it, 

[00:33:44] Kim: I hope so. 

[00:33:46] Jane: It's very clear that you modeled it for them. Yes, and because even just being able to write a book like this with your kid. I think is just proof of that. And also there were parts of it that had some humor in them. And I'm just wondering, even some of the titles, like what was the one about the chicken lady? But just wondering if you guys went in your interactions with each other, are you at a point where you can kind of, because you recognize these things in each other where you can, dare I say, joke about certain 

[00:34:15] Kim: Yeah. We will bring up certain brain glitches and we'll kind of be like, guess what I thought of today. Share something and be like, oh, for God's sake, just laugh about it and you know, 'cause the brain is a funny place, like accidentally praying to Slender Man and stuff like that, you know? 

[00:34:37] Jane: That. Yeah, maybe it's a defense mechanism of mine, but I don't think so because I do feel like, for me personally, and so that's why I didn't want to say these things and have it, you know, be misconstrued by you or anybody out there who's dealing with this, where like they can't laugh about it. To me, being able to laugh at myself in the moment, like, wow, look at my brain is doing right now, actually snaps me out of my loop. Like sometimes nothing's gonna snap me out of it except for like three hours of meditation. That's just real for me. I haven't thankfully been, I'm knocking on all the wood, haven't been there in quite some time.

[00:35:08] Jane: But if something triggers me. I'm like, okay, I've been triggered. Let me meditate and get this under control. But sometimes a quick fix for me is kind of just recognizing it in the moment and actually laughing at it instead, and then it, for me, it just takes the power out of it and takes the darkness out of it, right? Like I won't go over the edge of it. I'll be like, oh my gosh, no. Heidi's gonna start laughing 'cause she's probably, she knows the story because she has lived through this with me because I've called her occasionally going, oh, guess what I'm thinking right now.

[00:35:40] Jane: That's like, really just I know is not a thing. One of the things that triggered like a really hard loop and it took a couple of weeks to go away, is we had a mice in our house because it was really cold and they were building a building behind our house and they were breaking ground and these little field mice, they needed somewhere to go and our house was not built that great. I guess there were some nooks and crannies and they were like, it was very cold out and they were like, oh, we're gonna go live with Jane. She loves mouse shit in her house. So I was just like, we're all gonna die of disease. This is it. Hantavirus in the house. I went through so many boxes of nitrile gloves of just like trying to get the demons out.

[00:36:18] Jane: I was like, oh my gosh. I didn't even know what they were at first, like the mouse. Once I saw a mouse turd, though, to this day, and this is where to prevent myself from going over the mouse turd edge, which is where I went when they were in my house, I was like, oh, this is so bad. If I see a piece of lint on the floor. And it's rolled up a little bit where it looks like that grain of rice, like mouse turd shape. I'll see it at a distance. Okay. And this is a running joke in my house 'cause my husband was here through that whole mouse OCD thing and he had to talk me down and be like, you're not gonna, it's gonna be okay. He'll see me looking at the lint thing on the floor and he knows from the look on my face that I think it's piece of mouth shit. And he will start singing to me like, do you guys remember? 'cause we're all Gen X here. Remember that Tootsie Roll jingle from years ago. Like whatever it is, I think I see becomes a tootsie roll to me. Okay. So my husband will be like, would, would, he will do that, but he'll replace Tootsie roll with mouse turd, and I will ju I think he's just like a big, a mouse turd to Yeah. That's how he sings to I will start laughing so hard. And it snaps me out of it. But if I wasn't laughing at it, or singing the mouse turd song, because I'll do it. I'll do it even with no one's home. I'll see the lint. I'll be like, you, I know you think it's, I know you think the mice are back and hantavirus. Here we go. Break out the gloves and the bleach. I gotta open all the windows. I'll walk up to it. I'll force my, this is part of my like, little exposure thing. I will pick it up with my bare freaking hand. Yes. This, I make myself do it. 'cause I'm like, worst scenario, it's mouse shit. You're gonna wash your hands. You'll probably wash your hands all for a long time, but it's probably 

[00:37:59] Kim: Exposure and response prevention at its best gold standard.

[00:38:06] Jane: It is. I will look at it and I'll laugh and I'll be like, it's Zi. And then I sing the mouse turd song and I go on with my life. Because there was a time where that was just not possible. And, it's a problem. And I feel it coming up. I'm like, Oh, Then I'm like, okay, well, let's just say it was mouse shit it, right? You had mouse shit in your house before nobody died. You cleaned it, you know how to do it properly because you spent an inordinate amount of time on the internet learning how to clean it properly, and you made the guy from the pest control place explain it to you a bunch of times, and then you read it again and it's fine. And then you also, Heidi's probably laughing because I also looked up that, 

[00:38:44] Etienne: Did you call the CDC? 

[00:38:46] Jane: Um, I read a lot on their website. I've called poison control a bunch of times in my life. They probably would when I call them. There's no way they don't, because you have to 

[00:38:57] Etienne: they're like, it's Jane calling 

[00:38:59] Jane: You have to tell them that your zip code and stuff, but listen, this is how it actually started for me as a kid. Like reading safety labels and stuff, and like everyone was like, Aquanet. And I'm like, no, that shit will kill you. It says it's fatal if you inhale it right on the thing. Like, so I just, you know, but see here, like i'm still, I'm like I'm laughing about it.

[00:39:18] Kim: Aquanet would kill us.

[00:39:19] Heidi: Yeah. 

[00:39:20] Kim: Were living in the eighties, right? I think most of us were. And Aquanet. It was like a helmet. We were in a 

[00:39:26] Etienne: we all were. 

[00:39:27] Kim: for like an entire 

[00:39:28] Heidi: Yeah. 

[00:39:28] Jane: Yes. 

[00:39:29] Kim: shellac

[00:39:30] Jane: At the skating rink alone, I was inhaling it like just by proxy, like it was always in my lungs and I'm we're all fine. 

[00:39:39] Heidi: Yeah, kinda

[00:39:40] Etienne: we didn't die. 

[00:39:43] Heidi: we.

[00:39:44] Jane: We're kind of fine. Uh,

[00:39:46] Kim: maybe possibly. 

[00:39:48] Etienne: That's 

[00:39:49] Heidi: Yeah, there's gonna be a study that comes out, Aquanet causes uh, another thing to worry about. Right?

[00:39:56] Etienne: Gen Xers are messed 

[00:39:58] Jane: I, I. It did. That's what it did. It did trigger me. But yeah, I mean, that, that is what it did it like all of the weird labels and then I had medical encyclopedias in my house. It was just like all of those things, that was what initially, you know, triggered me. So when your world is unsteady, I think everybody who has OCD can kind of find like, okay, when did this start surfacing for me? And for me, it was like my parents' divorce and it was like, oh, the world's unsteady. Your brain's wired this weird way. How about we turn that switch on right now? Because that's gonna be the impetus for, 

[00:40:32] Heidi: That's how you take 

[00:40:32] Jane: the default. Yes. 

[00:40:35] Heidi: As a child, that's what you're feeling like that that's how I gain some kind of control is I control my environment in some 

[00:40:42] Jane: Yeah, taking those pictures off the wall, that made me feel in control or like also putting all the Barbies in a box in the back of the closet with books on top just so they couldn't get out just in case.

[00:40:53] Heidi: Just in case. 

[00:40:54] Kim: Jane,

[00:40:55] Jane: Just in case. 

[00:40:55] Kim: understand. You 

[00:40:57] Heidi: I did the same thing with my animals. I would face them out. 

[00:41:01] Kim: You know, I should take you with me to book signings because there are so many times when I'm at a bookstore pitching the book, you know, and I have this reaction where there are these people in front of me, and you always know when they have this stereotyped idea of OCD, because they'll start giggling at.

[00:41:18] Kim: Punch the other and go, I know she's got OCD because her spice rack is alphabetized. And it's like, you know, maybe she just likes things orderly. It doesn't necessarily mean they have OCD. Right. it doesn't, you know. 

[00:41:33] Jane: Yes. 

[00:41:33] Etienne: you.

[00:41:37] Kim: Yeah, there you go. You just like to know where it is. Right? But they say, and aren't we all a little OCD? And they'll say things like that that just make you wanna reach across and say, I don't know, like if you're reorganizing your bookshelf once. Alphabetizing it, stepping back and going, ah, I feel better. Okay, but get back to me. If you're reorganizing your bookshelf for the 21st time at 2:00 AM with tears streaming down your face, then you might have something. But yeah, it's a trip the way people. But see, Jane, you should be there when people do this giggling thing and punching each other, and so you can walk up to 'em and say, oh, well I had my Barbies face down with books on top of them. Tell him what's really up. I have Jane here to explain OCD to you. She can clear all this up for you 'cause you seem to have a misunderstanding, a stereotyped understanding. But what I like is when you mentioned that your husband would start singing because there's this whole idea that you can form a new neural pathway and that that one little thought that was zinging off in one direction in your head, you sing this silly little song and suddenly it is zinging off in another direction. So you've formed this new neural pathway and I'm like, Hey man. Whatever works and stops the torn. Okay. It can be the tootsie Roll song or whatever. And also like the idea that you were talking about, we gotta get it out, like exorcise the demon, if you will. Because I remember when Finn was going through just the heart of their exposure and response prevention treatment. This was during COVID, and we would hear them upstairs wailing. I mean, we would be downstairs in our little office and they would be upstairs just sobbing and just freaking out because their doctor had them reading a script, to keep their brain from pushing it away. And they said, well, the problem is your brain. It's acting like the thought is a problem. It's quarantining it, it's trying to push it away. It's trying to act like it's something horrible. So they would have them write out the whole ugly scenario. Okay? So I throw the person over the banister. They land. Their brain pops open, there's blood everywhere, and I feel horrible.

[00:43:55] Kim: I go to prison. Like they would have them read the entire scenario, like scripted out because their brain was trying so hard to ignore, ignore, ignore, push it away, say a rote prayer 50 times, touch the same trash can 10 times in a row, you know, whatever. But they wanted their brain to look at it, really look at it and see that I can look at this and still be okay.

[00:44:17] Kim: And look at it again, and look at it again and say, I'm all right. You know, this is not anything I have to keep quarantining and treating like it's something that's gonna kill me or someone else, you know? And, um, yeah, just what you were talking about getting it out. 

[00:44:31] Jane: Release it like that to me, like joking about it helps me release it because I'm still naming it, I'm acknowledging it and I'm flipping it around and just taking its power away by laughing at it. But laughing at it in a way that I'm like, I love you You're just such a quirky little girl.

[00:44:47] Jane: Look at these weird things that your brain does. And then I can laugh at myself if I'm in a dark place. Sometimes I need to phone a friend or do some meditation and it's still whatever it is. It's still taking the bite out of it, you know? 

[00:45:01] Jane: And I think that COVID was another thing I think that put a lot of people with OCD over the like, but to me I was like, you know what? I looked around at my family and I was like, you guys, I've been preparing my whole life for this. I'm like, I've got this. I'm like, I've got gloves. I'm gonna wipe down these groceries like you've never seen anyone wipe down groceries. I'm like, I know how to make a mask out of like, gimme anything. I'm like freaking MacGyver up in here. I have like rubber bands and staples, I'll do it. I know that there's a shortage, but I'll make masks out of other, and I was going to the grocery store with like weird shit that I made for my face And I was just like, with confidence gloves on. And I was just like, I'm gonna save my family, and I was thinking of that scene from Signs with Mel Gibson, where he was just saying like, that's why you had asthma, so your lungs would be closed. When the alien was trying to, like, I was just like, this is why I have OCD, so I'm gonna save my family during COVID. And then after like a couple months, I was like, I think we just need to go outside and go to parks and stop washing our groceries. I think we're going to be okay. Um, 

[00:46:00] Etienne: Oh wow, Jane 

[00:46:01] Jane: was so proud of myself, but at first I was just like, oh no. But I was honestly so much more afraid of the mouse turd then COVID, we can't take that. I 

[00:46:12] Etienne: Is that,

[00:46:13] Jane: because Hantavirus seemed a lot more serious. I didn't have all the comorbidities that they were talking about with COVID. I'm like, I think i got this. I'm gonna be okay. 

[00:46:19] Kim: And I think it's also worth mentioning, some people get freaked out if you have a laugh at OCD or you're not taking it seriously or you're undermining the seriousness of it's. Like, oh no, we get it. What? You're afraid your child might take their life over it. Oh, you get it. You definitely get it. But I think it's also one of those things where, there's this scene in the Matrix where, if any of you're Sci Fi nerds like myself, where Morpheus says, we must first shed our fear. He's talking about the machines, he's like, we must first shed our fear of it, and then they start dancing. I think there's some freedom in that to take your power back and say, it's okay for me to laugh at this, this is how I shed my fear of it. I create this new neural pathway in my head by sometimes having a good laugh at it. Because, joy is part of our lives too, even in some really dark times. And, that doesn't mean we don't take it seriously, it means, this is how we shed our fear of it. Sometimes, it's by having a good laugh at it because the brain can be a glitchy, funny place too. 

[00:47:19] Jane: I love that so much. You just have to find, and we talk about that a lot on this podcast of like, where do you find joy? And I think that it's also like where you find healing sometimes is in those moments of levity and joy. But if this is something that is intruding on your life or a loved ones, just definitely take advantage of resources out there.

[00:47:40] Jane: For me it's yoga, meditation, it was exposure therapy. It was cognitive behavioral therapy talk therapy. All of the things combined, and then sometimes the Tootsie Roll jingle. So whatever it is that's gonna help you please get that help and reading this book helped me. And, Kim and I had conversations at a conference where we saw each other, where I bought this book from her. And, it was very powerful. So again, You're Not a Murderer, You Just Have Harm OCD, A memoir by Kim Conrey and her child Finn Conrey. Check it out, please.

[00:48:11] Heidi: Yes. 

[00:48:12] Kim: Thank you. 

[00:48:13] Heidi: That's our show you've been listening to, The Women Are Plotting. If you have a story you'd like to share or have any comments, we'd love to hear from you. Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com and of course you can find us on all the socials. Thanks, and until next time, be safe and be excellent to each other.