Dating Apps, Sex, & What We Want Now

First, we share which U.S. state tops the charts for chlamydia, gonorrhea & syphilis--a wake-up call for anyone dating in midlife. Use condoms. Be safe. Especially if you live in or are visiting the certain areas of the country!  

From there, we dig into modern midlife dating and dating apps, including what the data says about which age group is the fastest growing online daters (I wonder who that could be??) We talk about why apps can feel more efficient than meeting people “in the wild,” how intentions can be clearer, and why priorities shift after divorce. Emotional stability, kindness, and consistency start to beat drama and chaos, even when the chemistry is real. We also get honest about first-date sex and compatibility, including how different people wire differently around trust, attraction, and vulnerability. 

We share personal stories about stating sexual needs upfront, learning the difference between sexting and follow-through, and what it looks like to build a casual roster without losing yourself. We also talk about body acceptance, feeling more liberated as we get older, exploring new attraction, and the way manosphere content and social media algorithms can quietly poison the dating pool. 

If you want real talk about post-divorce dating, midlife relationships, sexual confidence, and staying safe while still having fun, hit play. Subscribe, share this with a friend who needs it, and leave a review so more midlife daters can find us.

Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com, and find us on all the socials. Be safe and be excellent to each other.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Etienne: The one thing my mother did right with me, and she said it so many times, was that as long as you're having sex and you, the urges that you have, as long as it's between you and somebody else who's an adult, there's nothing wrong with that.

[00:00:14] Etienne: And that is, like, the one thing she took away from the '60s, thank God. And she passed that on to me, and that is how I've lived my life from the moment I started having sex. And yeah, I mean, I pretty much almost my entire life, except for that one boyfriend, have had sex with everybody the first day that I met them.

[00:00:30] Etienne: Welcome listeners. This is Women Are Plotting. I'm Etienne Rose Olivier, and I'm here with my friends and co-hosts, Heidi Willis and Jane Gari

[00:00:45] Etienne: On today's episode, we're gonna be talking about dating in midlife, and 

[00:00:51] Etienne: I actually wanna do a little quiz with you guys again. I know we did this one other time before because I have statistics here, and I'm so excited about them. So in the year 2023, and we're only talking about the United States, which state or area would you say had the highest rate of chlamydia per 100,000 people?

[00:01:12] Jane: Florida.

[00:01:16] Heidi: She's so confident in

[00:01:18] Etienne: I know.

[00:01:19] Jane: am, I am very confident that it's Florida.

[00:01:21] Heidi: I'm

[00:01:22] Etienne: So Heidi, what, what

[00:01:23] Heidi: thinking California. I don't know.

[00:01:25] Etienne: Okay. No, you both are wrong. I will tell you where those land on there.

[00:01:29] Heidi: New York?

[00:01:30] Etienne: Nope, nope, I said per 100,000 , so

[00:01:32] Heidi: Oh, per- Oh,

[00:01:34] Etienne: so it literally is accounting for population, so you have to go by what the area thinks.

[00:01:39] Heidi: we, can we say

[00:01:40] Etienne: again?

[00:01:41] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:01:42] Etienne: Okay. You're never gonna get it, honestly, but okay.

[00:01:44] Heidi: I'm gonna say Utah.

[00:01:46] Etienne: Utah.

[00:01:48] Heidi: I don't know.

[00:01:49] Etienne: That's a pretty good one. I didn't even look and see where Utah was on here. Not Utah. Utah's way at the... It's at the end of... It's not the very end, but it's in this last section of... Definitely. Jane, did you wanna change your... Are you still going Florida?

[00:02:04] Etienne: New Je- where is New Jersey? Okay, so New Jersey's not up at the top either. Um, New Jersey is in the middle kind of. Okay. District of Columbia has the highest per 100,000 people, 1,228, and it's the highest by... Okay, so the next state down, Louisiana, 792. That is how fucking chlamydia is rampant in DC. What is going on there?

[00:02:31] Heidi: Well, 'cause there's so many foreigners. There's so many diplomats that come in.

[00:02:35] Etienne: it... Y- you really think it's the diplomats going around passing out the chlamydia?

[00:02:39] Jane: think it's like

[00:02:40] Etienne: don't think so.

[00:02:42] Heidi: many hookers. There

[00:02:42] Jane: our congressional representatives and their side pieces.

[00:02:46] Etienne: God.

[00:02:49] Heidi: It's a thing, like...

[00:02:51] Etienne: Fuck, guys. Um, yeah, it's bad. Oh, the lowest state, 'cause this is always fun. New Hampshire, 197. And Vermont, guys. Vermont, second least, 202. Vermont's looking better.

[00:03:07] Heidi: yep, Vermont or New Hampshire, you've been thinking about. Yeah.

[00:03:11] Etienne: Yeah. All right. So let's go to gonorrhea 'cause this is so much fun, right? 'Cause it's a little different.

[00:03:21] Etienne: .

[00:03:21] Etienne: Okay. This is... Yeah, this is shocking. Okay, so gonorrhea, what state would you guys say, or area, is the top rank? Okay. Going back with Florida. What about you, Heidi?

[00:03:33] Heidi: DC?

[00:03:34] Etienne: Yes, DC is the answer.

[00:03:38] Heidi: I'm thinking if they got the most of the other stuff,

[00:03:40] Etienne: Hold the phone, no. It's so much worse this time around. So I guess chlamydia has the highest rate of all of the diseases. They're literally in order of worst to least numbers. But so gonorrhea in the DC area, 853 per 100,000 people.

[00:03:57] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:58] Etienne: The next one is Alaska at 310. That is such a fucking difference. That's almost three times the amount in DC for the second. You know what I mean?

[00:04:07] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:04:08] Jane: It's cold and dark for a lot of the year, and people are bored, and it's free. You know, you

[00:04:13] Etienne: Well, Alaska, I mean, I could see Alaska being second, yes, but I still don't know why DC is three times, almost three times as much. Like DC is r-

[00:04:20] Heidi: you, it's because all the politicians.

[00:04:22] Etienne: More, I mean, there is a lot of poor areas in DC as well, and, you know, there's a lot of not very good education. So I feel like that might be part of it more than... but maybe the politicians.

[00:04:33] Heidi: I mean, it, DC is a political town.

[00:04:36] Etienne: obviously a cesspool.

[00:04:38] Heidi: so, so yes, cesspool you've got the contractors coming in, you got the lobbyists coming

[00:04:44] Etienne: Oh, God. And they're all just... None of them wanna use condoms, obviously.

[00:04:48] Heidi: Yeah. They're all the sleazeballs and yeah, they're

[00:04:52] Jane: I can't feel anything.

[00:04:54] Etienne: Oh my God, it doesn't... Yeah. I'm fine. Look, my dick looks great. Like, I don't know. I don't know. Whatever they say. Okay, wait, so the third one is syphilis. Syphilis.

[00:05:05] Jane: boy. This is an important stat to know.

[00:05:07] Etienne: Now they have it broken down by different things. They have also congenital syphilis, which we're not gonna be looking at 'cause that's not fun. But we're gonna look at just the primary and secondary cases of syphilis, per 100,000 people, and you're gonna be shocked at how sh- little this, this... This is different, this one. I'll just give you a hint. So which state or area would you guys say is the top per 100,000 people on

[00:05:29] Heidi: know Washington is having an outbreak, so.

[00:05:32] Etienne: State, or are we going DC again? Okay. So you're saying Washington State. What about you, Jane?

[00:05:38] Jane: I'm still going Florida. Like all those people in The Villages, come

[00:05:41] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:05:42] Etienne: Florida's like, "Dude,

[00:05:42] Jane: those asshole hippies are going nuts.

[00:05:45] Etienne: Like, all

[00:05:46] Jane: They're just like, they're all like

[00:05:48] Etienne: I'm trying to see where Florida is. Florida's, like, kind of... All right, it's in the top, like, third, okay? Florida's in the top third. Washington State, where? Oh, Washington State's high- is higher up than Florida. But the top one, South Dakota at 73.4.

[00:06:06] Jane: Wow.

[00:06:07] Etienne: And the second one, I'm sure you could guess this one, DC at 39.9. But it's... But yeah, I don't know why South Dakota's got such bad syphilis.

[00:06:17] Jane: don't go to DC and have casual

[00:06:19] Etienne: Do not. I mean, you need to have like a full latex suit on if you're gonna have sex with anybody in DC. Or

[00:06:27] Jane: Sorry if anybody's from DC listening, just be

[00:06:30] Etienne: up outside of DC, but Jesus.

[00:06:34] Heidi: if you're dating in DC, be careful. Wear lots and lots of protection 'cause there's stuff going around there

[00:06:41] Etienne: Uh, lots of stuff, especially chlamydia.

[00:06:44] Jane: Oh my God.

[00:06:45] Etienne: God. So sorry, Jane.

[00:06:47] Heidi: hopefully Jane's got

[00:06:48] Etienne: I know Jane's got more fun. I know she's like dating and we're talking about s- diseases, but...

[00:06:54] Jane: I know, well, but it's a very good thing to be wary of as you're dating out there. Be safe, folks.

[00:07:04] Jane: I actually, my fun/interesting facts are about the dating platforms and specifically 'cause we're focusing on midlife, dating in midlife and post-divorce and all of that, that I was like, "Who-- how many people are in this boat right now?"

[00:07:15] Jane: And so over 50% of midlife daters are using the apps or online platforms. I guess they're like, "All right, this time around..." I just find like that's interesting, right? Because that's not how they dated the first time around. And the fastest growing group on dating apps are people over 45,

[00:07:33] Etienne: Oh, wow.

[00:07:33] Jane: and a lot of folks that were polled said that they prefer it because it's more efficient, there's clearer intentions and less guessing.

[00:07:41] Jane: And I could understand that because like even my daughter had said that, she's not on a dating app, but she said that she would consider it because at least then you're not feeling creepy in terms of approaching somebody and being like, "Hey, you're really cute," you know?

[00:07:57] Jane: Like you just... If someone's on the app, like their intentions are already out there. Like, "I'm looking for someone to date. If you're talking to me, I know you're chatting me up. I know the intent behind this interaction," and that's comfortable for people, so I get it. And I was looking at what midlife daters actually want, and there wasn't a stat behind this, but it was just showing the priority shifting from when they were younger is like they're looking for emotional stability more than physical attraction, kindness more than excitement, and consistency over chemistry highs and lows.

[00:08:31] Jane: Like they don't want like that volatility. And this is like dating, not just casual interactions, like they're dating towards a relationship. And so there was a survey that was showing that they definitely wanted something that was drama-free, that outranked passion.

[00:08:45] Jane: They were like, "I will take..." These sound like a lot of people who were burned in a relationship that were like, "I do not want any more drama in my life."

[00:08:53] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:08:53] Etienne: Well, it's kinda like that dating profile, that guy that said like, "If you don't take your meds but need them, swipe left." Wasn't that his...

[00:09:00] Jane: I mean, that is a good screener of saying 

[00:09:04] Heidi: and and one of the articles I was reading in prep for this, the number one thing was, and I just went blank.

[00:09:10] Etienne: Oh.

[00:09:12] Heidi: had a senior

[00:09:14] Etienne: keep that in. Heidi's menopausal moment.

[00:09:18] Heidi: Oh my

[00:09:20] Etienne: Your mind

[00:09:20] Heidi: so bad. It's like, what, what was the thread? What was the thread?

[00:09:25] Jane: You were teeing it up too.

[00:09:26] Etienne: about needing to take meds but not taking them? That, was that what? I mean, did, is that what

[00:09:31] Heidi: Before that,

[00:09:33] Jane: Drama-free.

[00:09:34] Heidi: free. 

[00:09:35] Heidi: Yes. So, the number one thing that they said was expect baggage because everybody comes in with baggage, which is true. Like, you've lived half your life, like, it's so different than when you were in your 20s. Like, you have battle scars now. You know? You got some shit that you've been through.

[00:09:51] Heidi: So have you processed that shit you went through? Like, that's the question.

[00:09:56] Etienne: I feel like, I mean, we already talked about this before, though. I have a feeling that men just ignore that part. Like, "Oh, we just have the baggage. This is what comes with me." It's like, really? 'Cause you could learn to get rid of the baggage. Like, you could go to a therapist and like,

[00:10:09] Heidi: Exactly. Exactly.

[00:10:11] Etienne: there's a way to purge the baggage.

[00:10:14] Jane: I think that, yeah, I think we need to differentiate between baggage and a past, right?

[00:10:19] Etienne: Oh, everybody has a past. You can't, yeah. 

[00:10:21] Jane: know, it's, you can't be expecting clean slate at this point in life. However, it should just be fun, anecdotal things where you're like, "Yeah, when I was young." Not like, "Okay, the reason I do this is because..."

[00:10:32] Jane: You know, and you're like, "Oh Lord," like, "please fast-forward to the fact, you know, just fast-forward so that you being on the other side of this. And if we can't do that, then why don't you just get back to me after you have processed

[00:10:44] Etienne: Exactly. Yeah. That's fantastic. Wait, was that your actual, uh... Oh,

[00:10:48] Heidi: No, uh, so my... Sorry, so my fun fact.

[00:10:51] Etienne: a fun person.

[00:10:53] Heidi: AARP, did a survey of 3,501

[00:10:58] Etienne: Oh, I'm

[00:10:58] Heidi: men and

[00:10:59] Etienne: one person that

[00:11:00] Heidi: Yeah. Men and women aged 40 to 69, single people, and they said that, they like most about their singlehood is personal freedom and independence, but it also comes with a price of not having someone to do things with.

[00:11:15] Heidi: So the majority do date either exclusively or non-exclusively, but large portions, especially of older women, take a pass on dating and sex. Only 2% of women say that sex is acce- acceptable on the first date, while 20% of men think it is. Women want dates to have someone to talk to and do things with. Men want the sexual dimension built in So personality and sense of humor count most for both men and women, but many men emphasize physical attractiveness and sexual satisfaction.

[00:11:44] Etienne: Hmm. Yeah.

[00:11:46] Heidi: then both, both men and women in midlife want to date younger people,

[00:11:50] Etienne: Oh, shit.

[00:11:52] Heidi: And we know that me and you both have experience with that. Some recent, some-- Oh, m- a lot of recent.

[00:12:00] Etienne: Very recent. Yeah.

[00:12:02] Heidi: Oh, a- and Etty needs to talk about the problems with dating so many that are younger in midlife, 'cause our memories aren't so great.

[00:12:11] Etienne: No, come on. So here's the thing. So yes, I've broken the seal. I don't, I don't think we've talked about... We have not talked

[00:12:18] Heidi: Yay, Etty.

[00:12:20] Etienne: I can't even, like, properly my English now. Um, yeah, so what I've been, I was celibate, I was celibate for 18 months, and I now have my house to myself now for the last month, again. So I'm so excited and I think I waited approximately four days before getting on a dating app. And I was on a date I think the very next day or two days later, something like that. But then I didn't have sex again for one day after that, so it was, like, very quick. So I've kinda fallen into my same pattern as before.

[00:12:52] Etienne: I know I said everybody had huge hurdles to go over, but that was before I actually started having sex again. I'm like, "No, this is fun. I found the solution. I found the magic sentence to add to my profile," which anybody who wants to add this to your profile, let me pull it up right now 'cause I wanna get it right.

[00:13:07] Etienne: So everybody probably knows if you listen to any of our sex episodes that I'm obsessed with getting oral sex. I will give just as good of oral sex to the men, but they need to do it to me first because we know that you could sometimes do that and it's not reciprocated, and I am not falling for that shit.

[00:13:26] Etienne: So I wrote the following. This is under Hinge 'cause they give you little prompts you can use 'cause people just need prompts to actually write anything, I think. So I use the My Simple Pleasures prompt, and I put, "My simple pleasures: a book I can't put down, a show I can't stop binging, and a man who makes every day Taco Tuesday," and in parentheses I put, "and loves how mine taste."

[00:13:48] Etienne: So there's only been a couple of people that have matched with me who have been like, "So what's so great about your tacos? What's your secret ingredient?" I'm like, "A bar of

[00:13:59] Heidi: Missed

[00:14:00] Etienne: I don't know. It's like...

[00:14:04] Heidi: Oh my God. Far soap.

[00:14:06] Etienne: I didn't say that. I was like, "Um..." I literally typed back, "I wasn't actually talking about actual tacos."

[00:14:13] Etienne: So... And then he got the gist right away. But, yeah, I think that was the magic ingredient because you know right from the start any man who matches with me, this is important. This is important. Don't fucking even bother. I hope they're understanding. Don't bother if you're not going... If you're not into that, if you're not gonna do it, go somewhere else. This is not your place to be at all. Um, but

[00:14:36] Heidi: about

[00:14:36] Etienne: yeah. Uh, or pretend. You know what? If you do a great fucking pretending, I don't care. Just pretend really well and we're fine, you know? So I mean, I feel like with me, I can't pretend. Like, I literally show, um, when I'm doing this to somebody, when I'm going down on a man. I literally... Like, my mouth is drooling. Like, all the parts of me are getting extra excited. Like, I am not faking how much I enjoy doing it. So I would prefer somebody to enjoy it naturally as much as I do, but if they wanna fake it and they do a good job, that's fine with me, too. But, so far I think everybody's been mostly okay.

[00:15:12] Etienne: Most of them eventually start doing the whole, like- Sexting with me before meeting in person, I'm fine with that too. If they wanna tell me how exactly they wanna do stuff to me, I'm okay hearing about that. Like, you know? 'Cause then I can see how much enthusiasm they have before they've even done anything, and that's perfectly fine.

[00:15:29] Etienne: But I have had one out of the many that I've had at this point in the last three w- weeks or whatever it's been, who has gone out of his way to sext with me and be like, "I wanna do this to you." And he went so far, so far. Out of all of the people that I had to pick who most convinced me that he was all about cunnilingus, it was this guy.

[00:15:56] Heidi: Hmm.

[00:15:57] Etienne: Do you know what happened when I had sex with him?

[00:15:58] Heidi: All talk, no

[00:16:00] Etienne: all fucking talk. He did it barely, barely. He thought if he could make me squirt, which he did, and it was in a position I'd never done it before, like the squirting. I was like, that's impressive. I will use that with others. Um, but like

[00:16:15] Heidi: trick.

[00:16:17] Etienne: But yes, I was like, "I will, can't wait to try this with other people and see if it works, like or it's just your hands are that small," 'cause they were. And, um,

[00:16:24] Heidi: shit.

[00:16:28] Etienne: for like he went down on me maybe a couple minutes tops, three maybe. Then he wanted me to get on all fours 'cause that's the way that he knew h- how to make me squirt, and I was like, "Okay." So I did that, and he did that for a very long time. But then I was expecting more of the, you know... And he was all like, now it was his turn. So he laid down. I'm like, okay. And then at one point, like while I was going down on him and he's not very well-endowed either, so two strikes now against him. Not very well-endowed. Definitely below average. How about that? Below average. And I at one point decided I'm just gonna 69. I'm just gonna turn... 'Cause I, you know, he was laying down. I was like, I'm just gonna do this. He can always tell me to not, you know? So I just turned around and 69'd, and he was not really doing it. I was like, "Okay. So just talk. That's incredible. All right."

[00:17:18] Etienne: And he texted me like four days later, "Hey, how you doing? How was your weekend?" I mean, he knew I was gonna be working and stuff, like four nights in a row. And I responded that day later on, and then there's been nothing. It's crickets.

[00:17:30] Etienne: I actually wasn't expecting him to respond at all, and he actually had listened to the podcast a lot. He actually listened to an episode and was live texting to me because he want... I was like, "That's really cool. Like, nobody's done that." I was like... But yeah, he was doing all these things. He went so far out, and then he must know that he failed. must know that he failed. Like, you can't fucking fake that shit. I No, I'm not expecting three minutes of oral sex. I'm sorry. It's not three minutes. It takes me longer. I'm not that skilled. I can't come in three minutes with a stranger. I'm sorry. But, you know, 10 minutes possibly. If you know what you're doing, five minutes. If you really are fucking incredible, five minutes. Like, that's happened. That's happened in these three weeks. But dude, I'm in.

[00:18:07] Jane: you've been very straightforward about, like, that right now what you're dating to do is to have, fulfilling sex and you have outlined from the jump, " This is what I like, and if you're not into that, then

[00:18:20] Heidi: M-mosey along.

[00:18:22] Jane: Yeah. So I think that as long as do-- Okay, and this is something when I was reading in preparation for this episode that I come across and I was wondering if both of you feel this way, that the older we get, like the less fucks we give, right?

[00:18:34] Jane: So you're just like, "Listen, this is what I want." So you kind-- Do you feel more liberated now to just kind of just state the terms like, "This is what I want and this is what I'm looking for," and if things aren't going that way, do you feel more empowered than your 20-year-old self in dating and saying like, "Okay, this..."

[00:18:52] Jane: You know, just stating what your needs are, what your desires are, like the whole gamut.

[00:18:57] Etienne: I mean, yeah, for sure. Like, I didn't... Well, I didn't even know really what I wanted back in my 20s. Honestly, I had to discover that, and I didn't... I, I mean, I knew how my body worked, but I didn't... There was all kinds of things I hadn't experienced yet, so I didn't even know the real world yet, so...

[00:19:13] Etienne: And I certainly didn't accept my body. So, any little imperfection made me feel like I was horrifically looking. You know, I thought I'm ugly. Oh my God, this is not perfect. I'm ugly. You know? So now I don't. I accept my body for what it is. I'm not perfect. Nobody's perfect body-wise.

[00:19:29] Etienne: Nobody's perfect, you know, mentally. Nobody's perfect in any way, you know? I mean, even if you think you're perfect, somebody else might think that, "No, I actually don't prefer that, so that's not perfect for me." So it's like it's your taste, but I hope that everybody can accept theirselves for who they are.

[00:19:45] Etienne: And when you can accept yourself authentically, then I think you can have, you know, very positive sexual experiences with other people who also accept themselves at least enough to let go and enjoy the moment. And like, you know, Esther Perel said, go to that place together. Like, sex is a place that we go to together, and I don't have to know you very well, me personally, to go to that place with them.

[00:20:08] Etienne: I just want them to be honest upfront. Like, that guy obviously wasn't. he had talked I mean, I'm not even joking. I will share the fucking screenshots of the conversation. You're gonna be like, "This guy didn't go down on you well? Or at all, hardly?" It's like he went all the way out. Like, how the fuck?

[00:20:26] Jane: advertising

[00:20:28] Heidi: Yeah, he, he, yeah.

[00:20:30] Etienne: has been perfectly average with. Everybody has been saying the... And following it through. I have been getting the men who want to do it. That is what... Like, one of them said, and I think this would probably fit for all of the other men, that, you know, this one guy said, "I was with a woman who, for a while, who actually didn't want me to do that to her."

[00:20:48] Etienne: And he's like, "And I felt not, I didn't like not doing it to her. Like, I wanted to do it to her. I, I felt like I was not holding up my end of everything by not doing it for her." Like, another guy's like, "That's how I li- like, I wanna see you have pleasure. I wanna see you actually. I wanna be... I'd love to be the one to give that to you."

[00:21:06] Etienne: Like, that's what it should be. Just like I wanna be the one to give it to them, you know? And then we can do it together, you know? Like, all of these things. Like, that's what I think it's supposed to be about. 'Cause I don't need love to have sex, and I'm not interested in love at the moment at all. Like, I just wanna have fun again, and be feeling alive again.

[00:21:25] Etienne: So I have a new aliveness in me that had definitely been dead for a while. I'm so glad it's back. But, yeah.

[00:21:31] Heidi: too. Yeah.

[00:21:33] Etienne: But, Heidi did ask me earlier about, like, what's happening with... So when you are trying to find the right... 'Cause everybody's very busy in their 30s, and all these guys are in their 30s, most, except for one who was 40.

[00:21:43] Etienne: But everybody has a career and jobs, and they don't have a lot of free time. So I am trying to get a roster of men that I regularly have sex with, like I did before. But it's a lot easier now, I feel like. But at the same time, when I see them subsequently past the first time, I'm now forgetting what they might like in bed, or if I've done something with them before, or if I've told them something before.

[00:22:06] Etienne: So I feel like I might have to take notes after, like a doctor, and, make little, like, Cliff Notes of everybody so that I can review them before they come over again and not be like, "Have I told you this

[00:22:17] Jane: therapist 

[00:22:18] Etienne: I have." Yes. Yes. We can just do highlights. Highlights. ' Cause there's one guy that spends a lot...

[00:22:24] Etienne: i was, yeah, I was with him for hours today, and he likes hanging out with me. He loves having sex with me, but he likes hanging out with me, and I could not remember if he'd even knew I had a podcast. And he'd listened to multiple episodes, and I couldn't even remember that. I'm like,

[00:22:41] Heidi: Oh, no.

[00:22:44] Etienne: God. I'm so embarrassed. He's gonna think I'm fucking losing my mind." It's just that I'm talking to eight people at the same time, and I can't keep them straight. I mean, I'm doing my best, but I do think I need to... 

[00:22:54] Jane: to have a notebook of an-- or a binder. They all have

[00:22:57] Etienne: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Maybe with their little picture. 'Cause it's

[00:23:03] Heidi: Get yourself a little address book with, like, entries that you can just...

[00:23:08] Etienne: Oh, the notes section. The notes in my phone. Oh my

[00:23:11] Heidi: Yeah. Yes.

[00:23:12] Etienne: have a whole, like, you know... Sorry, it's bad. But I'm having

[00:23:17] Jane: You, you love a good spreadsheet,

[00:23:19] Etienne: time. I do.

[00:23:20] Jane: have like an amazing spreadsheet.

[00:23:24] Etienne: I could just make them think about themselves all the time, but what if I ask them the same questions again? Oh my God, this is...

[00:23:30] Heidi: blame it on, like, "Oh, it's hormones. Sorry. My hormones eliminated that memory. Sorry."

[00:23:36] Etienne: Sometimes, yeah. Just tell me if I've said things before. I will not be offended. Oh my God.

[00:23:43] Jane: a

[00:23:46] Etienne: A recap. Oh yeah, let's recap tonight. So...

[00:23:50] Jane: I'm not saying with them, I'm saying to yourself after they leave you do a little recap, you know, while it's fresh, and then you revisit it 'cause even just the act of writing something down

[00:23:59] Etienne: kinda like when you're in school. Yeah.

[00:24:01] Jane: Totally. You, you're studying for the next time you'll see them. Like, there might be a quiz, I don't know.

[00:24:08] Etienne: Well, there is. I mean, I don't want them to think, like, there's so many that you can't keep any of them straight, and it's like, I mean, when I meet them for the first time, I literally have to rem- like, "Who am I meeting today?" Like, I have to like, like, look on my calendar because I don't remember their names. I remember the conversation more than their names, and then- Yeah ... like, as I'm walking up, "What the fuck is his name again?" Like, shit.

[00:24:29] Jane: Would I call them something different? It'd be like, you know

[00:24:32] Etienne: but at least I always know what they look like, because I do have their little pictures with, like, every contact. I immediately take a screenshot, which later may go somewhere else, you guys know. Like...

[00:24:41] Jane: of the

[00:24:45] Etienne: my God. Well, Heidi, how are you? How are, h- wait. So J- Jane's question to you then, Heidi, how do you feel asking for what you might need today versus when you

[00:24:54] Heidi: I'm getting better. I'm getting better at it. Still not perfect or great at it, but, getting better. Yeah, but it's like you, you know, body acceptance, totally. Like, just don't give a fuck and,

[00:25:08] Etienne: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:09] Heidi: And enjoying sex. Like, really enjoying it and, like,

[00:25:13] Etienne: present. You just have to

[00:25:14] Heidi: Yeah, being present and, yep. And I had my first girl-on-girl sex, so that's unlocked a whole nother avenue for my dating life.

[00:25:23] Etienne: I'm so

[00:25:25] Heidi: Yeah. Yeah, so I had that and it was a whirlwind romance. It's crash and burn now. So learned a lot of lessons and moving on, and yeah. I, but I'm so grateful that it unlocked this whole other side of me.

[00:25:39] Heidi: I'm thinking back to all of the women that I, you know, looked up to or liked. Like Wonder Woman. Totally had a crush on her. Totally had a crush on... Like, I realized after having sex with a woman for the first time, I'm like, "Oh yeah, all those crushes." All of them were crushes.

[00:25:56] Etienne: Wait, is there a type? Do you have a female type, do you think?

[00:25:59] Heidi: Mm.

[00:26:00] Etienne: Like all those crushes, did they all kinda look the same? Like...

[00:26:02] Heidi: No. No, 'cause some of them were like Solid Gold dancers and the Charlie's Angels and

[00:26:09] Etienne: yeah. Jaclyn Smith.

[00:26:11] Heidi: Jacqueline Smith for sure.

[00:26:15] Etienne: Oh, seriously.

[00:26:17] Heidi: was probably my first girl crush, Jacqueline Smith.

[00:26:19] Etienne: hot. She's just beautiful.

[00:26:21] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:21] Etienne: Man.

[00:26:22] Heidi: Yeah, so yeah, discovering that, going, "Oh, okay." So yeah, that's opened up a whole 'nother side of dating, so I can go both ways and, yeah, I don't really have a type for either.

[00:26:34] Heidi: Like, I go off of, I guess energy or, you know, what the person,

[00:26:39] Etienne: Really, there is no physical type? Like you saw with me, with my profiles, it was like

[00:26:43] Heidi: there literally is no physical type for me. I've dated all kinds of different, you know, like blondes, brunettes, big guys, small guys, like little guys. It just depends. They gotta... There's gotta be something interesting about them. That's my main thing is like, you can't be some boring Joe Schmo, like some boring insurance agent, like, ugh.

[00:27:04] Etienne: Oh, come on. There might be some not boring insurance agents out there.

[00:27:10] Heidi: Huh? Well, if they're into kink or s- you

[00:27:12] Etienne: Yeah, you might be like, "Heidi, I wanna

[00:27:15] Heidi: then I'm all about it. But like, if you are just like, that's all you're doing and you're coming home and you're watching sports and hanging out with your bros, like I'm not interested. You're too boring for me. Like, you gotta be doing some Interesting shit. That's my type, I guess.

[00:27:28] Etienne: Somebody interesting, not

[00:27:30] Heidi: Yeah. Someone that can, you know, go as deep as me. Someone who has some stories to tell like I do, so where we're never gonna get bored kinda thing, so.

[00:27:39] Etienne: And what ages have you been indulging in, would you say?

[00:27:42] Heidi: 30s for sure. Some 40s, a few 50s, and a couple of 60s. So

[00:27:48] Etienne: What?

[00:27:49] Heidi: the gamut. Yeah, there's been a couple of 60 year olds.

[00:27:51] Etienne: Holy shit,

[00:27:52] Heidi: You didn't know? You

[00:27:53] Etienne: No, I didn't know that. Did you know that, Jane?

[00:27:55] Jane: I think that you had looked at some profiles. I didn't know if you actually went on a date with somebody who was in their 60s. Okay. 

[00:28:01] Heidi: Yeah. There's been a couple, one was a retired professor. He was interesting. Another guy just got out of a motorcycle club, which is code word for gang.

[00:28:11] Etienne: yeah.

[00:28:12] Heidi: So, so he was very interesting to talk to. So it's just they were interesting dudes, you know? It didn't last. So, I think I do prefer the 30s, unfortunately.

[00:28:23] Etienne: I know, right?

[00:28:23] Heidi: They seem to be the most interesting as a bunch as, you know, the younger folks, I don't know. Like I've only dated a couple of 50 something year olds. 

[00:28:31] Heidi: Like, I don't understand. I think just the Gen X guys, I don't... They've lost their way maybe. I don't know.

[00:28:38] Heidi: They used to be so cool back in our 20s. Like, I loved our fellow Gen Xers, but now they suck Sorry.

[00:28:45] Etienne: no.

[00:28:46] Heidi: kinda suck. Like, I don't know, if they got caught up in the manosphere

[00:28:50] Etienne: Oh.

[00:28:51] Jane: I was

[00:28:52] Heidi: or are too messed

[00:28:53] Etienne: Really? You think it's a manosphere?

[00:28:54] Jane: the ones that aren't cool, like the cool ones are all taken and they're stable and they're interesting. I mean, like I'm with a, married a fellow Gen X guy and he's pretty great, you know? So

[00:29:07] Etienne: he is.

[00:29:07] Jane: I think that the ones that are out there on the dating

[00:29:14] Heidi: There's a

[00:29:14] Jane: May have gotten swept up into like, dude, if they're on the wrong algorithm, there's just, I don't know.

[00:29:19] Jane: I don't know if that Venn diagram has enough space for commonality, you know? Like if they're, like they got a hold of some Andrew Tate material or something, like fuck it, there's just nothing that you're gonna have some common ground with them 

[00:29:34] Etienne: he the one-- Isn't Andrew Tate the one that said that he thought th-that, what was it? How did he put it? Or something to the effect of he thought women getting wet on their own was a myth.

[00:29:45] Heidi: Hmm?

[00:29:46] Jane: I don't know if he said that, but it wouldn't surprise me. He said a lot of misogynistic things and a lot of just borderline rapey type of stuff, and he definitely was accused of human trafficking. He's not the best human being on the planet. But I think that there's a lot of folks in that realm though that have, a lot of following.

[00:30:04] Jane: You know, there's like some self-help folks and they might be meaning well, and then, you know, you're trying to just get your body and mind right, and some of them are like really wrapped up in stoicism as well and we... And there's nothing wrong with any of that. There's nothing wrong with being on a health kick and having a stable mental state and mental fortitude.

[00:30:23] Jane: Like all of that is wonderful. But when it just takes this weird, just like it dips its toe into misogyny and you're just like, "What?" Like, it's like two weeks ago you just told me like you were just like, "I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna try this carnivore diet." And then all of a sudden you're like, "I don't think women should have ever gotten the right to vote."

[00:30:38] Jane: You're like, what just happened, bro? Like, you know, I've seen this happen to like, to men. Yes, I've

[00:30:44] Etienne: my God, that's quick. That turned fast.

[00:30:47] Jane: Yeah, and I do blame YouTube algorithms. Like you, you start watching a YouTube video, the next thing that it serves you is just even more extreme just to kind of garner your attention.

[00:30:55] Jane: So I think that dating now with just the proliferation of all these apps, it can be really great in some ways, like you guys were saying and even how I know some folks in younger generations, like just the very forthright in your intentions, right? But then I think you kind of lose some of like the dance, you know?

[00:31:13] Jane: But it depends on what you're looking for, and if you guys are just looking for something casual and fun and an exploration that's a little bit more whimsical and every- do you just wanna be in a space where everybody is like also like, "Yeah, this isn't too serious. Let's have fun." And then I'm wondering, what happens for both of you when you wanna then make a jump from, "Okay, this was fun," but what does dating look like when- you're looking for a relationship and how will those parameters change and 

[00:31:43] Heidi: see, I've been,

[00:31:43] Jane: something that still starts on the app?

[00:31:45] Etienne: yeah.

[00:31:46] Heidi: I've been looking, app, real life, out in the wild. Like,

[00:31:50] Etienne: Wild.

[00:31:51] Heidi: seriously, I've been looking at... Ah, yeah. So it's hard out there.

[00:31:55] Etienne: Yeah, I think it is just hard and like anybody, I mean, it's harder for, I think at, for our age, but I, I don't think it's easy for

[00:32:01] Heidi: 'Cause I think sex is easy to find. Sex is super easy to find. it's the connection. It's someone who really wants to get to know you. I still haven't, like, there's been only a few people that were, like, genuinely wanting get to know me. The rest, it just, I, I don't know.

[00:32:18] Etienne: like I said, there's a, there's... All right, so of all the people that I'm currently seeing regularly, three of them want to have conversations with me for hours. So, I mean, I think they genuinely want to know me and they want me to know them. So, I mean, and we know we're not dating, and I hope they understand that I'm not gonna fall in love with them.

[00:32:36] Etienne: But we are having a sort of relationship. I mean, we really are. I do know them. Like the ones I'm saying I'm getting mixed up with, it's just because I haven't spent enough time with them, you know, to like remember all the things and... and some of that stuff we talked about through text, which it's easier for me to get them mixed up between other people 'cause it's all looks the same.

[00:32:54] Etienne: But when they're actually telling me in person, it's easier for me to remember, obviously, and know which one told me what. But like when I met my ex-boyfriend, we met through Bumble, so it was a dating app, and I was at the... Even then, I was still just, you know, meeting people for coffee, usually having sex with them pretty quickly if they were gonna get it at all.

[00:33:14] Etienne: And the same thing happened for him. Like, I met him, I had sex with him the same day. So we went straight from a purely sexual relationship, and I don't think I was having sex with anybody else really at the time, to just exclusively being with him, and then it just kind of fell into a relationship.

[00:33:30] Etienne: So it wasn't like I was intentionally... I wasn't intentionally doing one or the other. 

[00:33:44] Etienne: So I was intentionally trying to have sex, 'cause that's important to me. I'm, I... With your AARP, like I think that was you, you, Heidi, who had the AARP, um, information there about, like, who thinks sex is okay on a first date and what's important to them, and it's more the men who would rather have sex right away, and the sex is important to them.

[00:33:51] Etienne: I'm one of those people as a woman. I unfortunately, I had a relationship early on with one of... my first long-term boyfriend of two years. So that was my first longest relationship, was two years long. And, I fell in love with him as much as I could, 'cause I really... My heart wasn't really prepared for love back then.

[00:34:09] Etienne: But I fell in love with him before I had sex with him. If I'd had sex with him immediately, I would not have been with him. Unfortunately, I hate to say that. But, he was not blessed physically in, in department. And he was also the uncircumcised one that, you know, got the yeast infection from me and kept giving it back to me, so I had to do the whole condom thing with him for the rest of our relationship.

[00:34:29] Etienne: So, yeah, if I had sex with him in the beginning, I would not have been in a relationship with him probably. Or maybe I... I don't know. I don't know what I would've done, 'cause he did have the whole, like, you know, concert promotion like job that is like in the grunge era. That's hard to pass up. Maybe I just would've had him, like I would've dated other people that he didn't know about.

[00:34:49] Etienne: I don't know. But, yeah. So I kinda learned my lesson there, you know? I've literally, literally slept with every person besides him. Everybody I've had a long-term relationship with, I've slept with them the very first day that I've met them, no doubt. And I'm glad nobody seemed to hold it

[00:35:05] Heidi: Your ex-husband too,

[00:35:06] Etienne: Yeah. Oh my God, yes. I was so drunk that I didn't remember all the times we had sex that night. He said we did it five times. I remember three. So yes. Everybody. Every... It's terrible. I am the worst. But like I...

[00:35:22] Jane: No, that's not terrible. That's just how you...

[00:35:25] Etienne: That's me, I guess.

[00:35:27] Jane: That's your screening process because, well, here's the thing. Well, no, I know a lot of people that married somebody and they didn't have the sexual chemistry, the compatibility that they deserved, right? So I think that there might be, you know, and everybody has just that you just know yourself, you know?

[00:35:46] Jane: I personally, I can't, I've never been able to do that. I don't know. My body is just like I need to have a connection before the sexual response follows in a way that makes me feel comfortable enough to be vulnerable like that with another person. It's not that I haven't seen anybody and been like, "Oh, I, could, I could 

[00:36:06] Etienne: I 

[00:36:06] Jane: it," like 100%, like I could imagine it. But like actually being able to, to go to that place with the person, I can't do it until I trust them, and I can't trust them unless I know them and have feelings for them. And that-- But that's me and I know myself, and I know that's how I operate. That being said, there have been times where when I was younger and I was not married yet, and I was like, "Ooh, okay," like, you know, maybe this person.

[00:36:28] Jane: Then we start to get like hot and heavy, and then I was just like, you know, ugh. And then that was it. Then the feelings went away pretty quick,

[00:36:36] Etienne: really? So if you tried to push it beyond what you normally, what you knew was beyond what you should do, that's when you like would lose all the feelings for the person and have to stop everything? Is that what we're saying?

[00:36:45] Jane: Yeah, we would stop being attracted to them. So, there'd be a couple guys where I dated them and I could see us moving towards a point where I would feel feelings for them enough to be able to like, okay, like maybe let's now we'll move forward and maybe have sex. But then we'd start, just getting hot and heavy, without actual, you know, just like in foreplay mode.

[00:37:04] Jane: And it just, I could just tell from foreplay mode, I would just like, "Man, no."

[00:37:09] Etienne: Hmm.

[00:37:12] Jane: and then, uh, just, and then we just stopped dating, and they're just like, "But why?" And I was just like, "I just don't know what to tell you. We are just not..."

[00:37:20] Heidi: compatible?

[00:37:22] Jane: I just knew.

[00:37:23] Jane: Um, I just knew that wasn't gonna happen. 

[00:37:25] Jane: So, and I know a couple of people even who, for religious purposes didn't have sex until they were actually married, and that's terrifying to me. 

[00:37:34] Etienne: I can only imagine if I... Oh, my Lord, no.

[00:37:37] Heidi: There's no way.

[00:37:37] Etienne: No fucking way. I'd rather just not be married. It's literally like, okay, here's three doors maybe behind one of these doors is hell. Maybe. But the other two are heaven. And I'm like, I would probably just be standing there going, "Mm, nope."

[00:37:53] Etienne: I'd just say, "No doors." I, I don't wanna actually, like, take that chance, you know? That's what it seems like to me. I would rather... I know how easy it is for men to be bad at sex. I've had lots of bad sex. And then...

[00:38:03] Heidi: I think I find it your life, you know, doing-- having sex first time before you go forward with somebody, it flies in the face of all the advice that women get, like Hold out. Hold out for, till the 10th date ' cause they'll lose all respect for you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and they'll only look at you as a sex object. But you're showing that no, that's not the case,

[00:38:26] Etienne: Well, at least these men. I mean, that's a lot of men, you know? I mean, like, all of the men that I've had actual, like, relationships with, like long term, they have not held it against me at all, and it, I don't... M- maybe it's because I don't have any shame attached to my sex. You know? Like, my sexual self has no shame.

[00:38:44] Etienne: Like, I literally would be like, " Yeah, I mean, we know no scat play." All right? No em- no emetophilia. Not okay with that either.

[00:38:53] Heidi: No.

[00:38:54] Etienne: Not vomiting on your dick, no.

[00:38:56] Jane: like, "I have standards."

[00:39:00] Etienne: going there. I'm okay with lots of things, though. I am so okay with so many things, but not that. But yeah. But if they wanna find people to do it with, go for it.

[00:39:09] Etienne: I will not hold it against you. I will not judge you. Just, you know, it has to be between two consenting adults. Both people have to be okay with it. Yeah.

[00:39:17] Etienne: So, but yeah, I have no shame with how, like... I mean, the one thing my mother did right with me, and she said it so many times, was that as long as you're having sex and you, the urges that you have, as long as it's between you and somebody else who's an adult, there's nothing wrong with that.

[00:39:34] Etienne: And that is, like, the one thing she took away from the '60s, thank God. And she passed that on to me, and that is how I've lived my life from the moment I started having sex. And yeah, I mean, I pretty much almost my entire life, except for that one boyfriend, have had sex with everybody the first day that I met them.

[00:39:50] Etienne: Some of these guys don't get it the very first day, 'cause I just don't have time or I have to think about it. One almost didn't get it at all, and I actually like him a lot. I was gonna say no, and at the end of our coffee date... Yeah, this is shocking. At the end of our

[00:40:03] Heidi: is this the guy that you thought was conning you? Catfishing you? Did you

[00:40:09] Etienne: No, I never... He completely dropped off. He was definitely catfishing me. I 

[00:40:12] Heidi: Oh, darn 

[00:40:13] Etienne: out of the... He was like- Crickets. I send him another message, crickets. I'm like, "Yeah, fucker, I know you." But no, this guy, at the end of the date, he wanted to try to make a next date, and I was like, "Mm," I was like, "Do you want me to answer you right now?"

[00:40:25] Etienne: And he's like, "No, no, it's okay." And I'm like, "Okay." So I just left it. I knew at the end of the date he wanted to see me again. I was thinking no. And then he sent me a text that was so fucking hot that I was like, " Do you wanna come over tonight?" So it was actually the same day, but I really didn't think it was gonna happen.

[00:40:44] Etienne: And, he got in there. He did. And,

[00:40:48] Heidi: Was this the guy that was nervous? He was 

[00:40:50] Etienne: No. No, no, no. You keep trying. I have...

[00:40:54] Heidi: Like

[00:40:55] Etienne: Keep trying, Heidi. No. He is not

[00:40:59] Heidi: why... Oh, so what did he do that made him almost 

[00:41:02] Etienne: Oh, he... 

[00:41:03] Heidi: an invite?

[00:41:04] Etienne: I just wasn't really feeling a physical attraction to him, like, in person as much as I thought I... You know, you always have to meet them in person. Um, you have to feel the chemistry.

[00:41:13] Etienne: I mean, not only do I have to, like, make sure you're not crazy or I'm not feeling any weird vibes off of you, which I've definitely had enough of those guys with the weird vibes. You know, I gotta walk away fast, you know, or run. But, um, I wasn't feeling anything bad towards him, and we actually talked for a very long time on our date.

[00:41:28] Etienne: So I was enjoying talking to him immensely. It wasn't that. It was like I wasn't feeling anything physical. But he sent me that text after and he was like, "Well, there was people, like, around our table, and otherwise I would've told you that you were so smoking hot that I would go down on you for so long that you were gonna have to push my fucking face off of you." And I'm like...

[00:41:54] Heidi: That is the guy. That is the guy. Yes. Yes.

[00:41:56] Etienne: Oh, did I tell you about that? Yeah. No, I don't think I've shown you a picture. No. But he did do that. Yeah. He did it until I was like, "Uh, you've got, like, you've got to stop." "Stop now."

[00:42:10] Heidi: Oh

[00:42:11] Etienne: I'm like,

[00:42:11] Heidi: God, I love those nights.

[00:42:13] Etienne: You know, like, when you hit the right spot on the dog and their leg is like... that was what was happening to my one leg, and I was like, "It won't stop." It's... It just feels weird.

[00:42:23] Heidi: my God. I

[00:42:24] Etienne: Yeah.

[00:42:25] Heidi: love this for you.

[00:42:26] Etienne: Me too.

[00:42:27] Heidi: So he's in the

[00:42:28] Etienne: Yeah, he's now on the roster. Yeah. I've seen him twice now. Yeah. He's very nice. He's very, very nice

[00:42:35] Jane: How old is he?

[00:42:36] Etienne: He's a little bit older comparatively, you know? I think he's 38, but let me double check.

[00:42:43] Etienne: Yeah, he's 38. But he's like, I think he's just had a run of people before, like his experiences before. Like he actually was a side piece for a couple in an open relationship. Like not for both, for the woman, 'cause he's completely heterosexual. So he's been that for somebody, but he, I don't think he's had much non-vanilla sex.

[00:43:05] Etienne: So I don't have to say too much at all or offer up things too much before he just is floored, and it's so enjoyable to throw somebody over the edge that hard, it feels like not even trying. But yeah, that's, it's fun. But yeah, the talking is really good. Like I could talk to him for hours, which I have. Like I probably at this point I've talked to him for like five, six hours in person when you add it all up.

[00:43:30] Heidi: No.

[00:43:30] Etienne: Yeah. So we are having relationship-ish, you know what I mean? But he knows he's not the only person that I'm seeing, and I'm not gonna tell him. I mean, if he wants to ask me, but I don't think he will.

[00:43:42] Etienne: I don't think he's, you know, more polite than that, so yeah. I mean, I appreciate that everybody can just let me be what I wanna be and they can share some of my life with me when we have time. Sure. And that's really it, you know? Unless something accidentally happens like it did with my ex you know? Yeah.

[00:44:02] Jane: Well, I think the way you guys both have in common is at this point in your life, you know yourselves well, and you're not willing to settle for things that you don't want, and you are just open to experiencing new things with different people and see where it goes. And just because you give less fucks, you're going 

[00:44:22] Etienne: I like this Smashbox. Zero.

[00:44:25] Jane: Yes. Just like, and, and go for what you want at this point in your life because you both deserve it.

[00:44:31] Etienne: Aw.

[00:44:31] Heidi: Thank 

[00:44:32] Etienne: you. Jane. 

[00:44:32] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:44:33] Etienne: believe me, I would rather be in the kind of relationship that you're in with your husband, for sure. I would take that any day of the week. But this is good. I'm very happy, you know? And I don't need to have a man in my life to feel complete. I'm complete as I am.

[00:44:47] Etienne: So this is just for fun. This is for a need, and I enjoy having like, you know, time with these men and learning about all these people and things I did not know about. So I'm learning all kinds of new things, you know? Like it's just broadening my horizons for sure.

[00:45:01] Jane: I love that for you, and I wish you guys all the best of luck in your dating adventures.

[00:45:07] Etienne: And I wish all the g- all everybody out there listening all the luck 

[00:45:10] Heidi: Yes. Good 

[00:45:11] Etienne: Just be open-minded. Yes, be open-minded and love yourself. That's the way to make good things happen. 

[00:45:19] Heidi: And that's our show. You've been listening to The Women Are Plotting. If you have a story you'd like to share or have any comments, we'd love to hear from you. Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com. And of course, you can find us on all the socials. Thanks, and until next time, be safe and be excellent to each other.