The Books That Warped Our Young Minds

We revisit the children’s books and fairy tales that felt normal at the time and realize how many of them were basically horror stories with a moral. We connect the nightmares to bigger questions about censorship, family dynamics, and what we want kids to learn now. 
• shifting patterns in children’s book censorship from the 1970s to today 
• VC Andrews and the secret pipeline of too-adult reads 
• Struwwelpeter and the shock-value “cautionary tale” tradition 
• fairy tale archetypes like evil stepparents and abandoned kids 
• The Giving Tree as generosity versus dysfunctional emotional labor 
• Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark and the power of illustrations 
• Lois Duncan and Stranger with My Face plus fear that feels real 
• choose your own adventure books that go wildly dark 
• The Little Match Girl and other stories built to haunt 
• Lord of the Flies compared with real survival stories 
• LGBTQ children’s books, representation, and the future of labels 
If you have a story you'd like to share or have any comments, we'd love to hear from you.

Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com, and find us on all the socials. Be safe and be excellent to each other.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Jane: Well, actually, they, I think that Hansel came up with that idea because he was like, "I don't wanna lose our way." But then of course, the birds eat all their breadcrumbs, and now they're like, "Where are we?" And then the witch and the whole freaking, they...

[00:00:11] Heidi: cook some kids in, in

[00:00:12] Etienne: house, yeah. Like

[00:00:15] Jane: Yeah, I mean, she's the original like weird Jeffrey Epstein in the woods, right? She's just like, "Come here

[00:00:20] Etienne: yeah, the white man

[00:00:22] Heidi: Hannibal Lecter

[00:00:22] Etienne: Yeah.

[00:00:24] Jane: Oh my God, yeah. She didn't have a van, right? She had a house. Like,

[00:00:28] Heidi: Yeah, the candy house.

[00:00:28] Jane: me. You come to me, and then once you're here,

[00:00:32] Etienne: Hmm. Then we'll eat you.

[00:00:33] Heidi: I'm gonna fatten you up and eat you

[00:00:36] Etienne: You're in trouble

[00:00:37] Jane: Yeah, so I'm rooting for them to like throw her in the oven. Like it's really, you know... And

[00:00:41] Etienne: And we're like cheering when she- yeah, that's not good. Like, this is problematic

[00:00:49] Etienne: Welcome listeners. This is Women Are Plotting. I'm Etienne Rose Olivier, and I'm here with my friends and co-hosts, Heidi Willis and Jane Gari

[00:01:04] Etienne: On today's episode, 

[00:01:09] Etienne: we're gonna be talking about messed up books from childhood, and we're gonna be talking about our childhood, just in case you haven't figured that one out. But, my fun or interesting fact for today, and I don't think this is fun, so definitely interesting. So I was thinking about censorship, and children's books have come up a lot when it comes to censorship.

[00:01:25] Etienne: And for books that were back in the '70s, the censorship was usually centered around bullying, so topics like bullying and general coming of age issues. And the 21st century censorship has been mostly around authors of color and LGBTQ+ authors. So it's obviously changed a lot over the years, and it's gonna be really fun to talk about which books of our childhood stuck with us and we know fucked with our brains a little bit.

[00:01:58] Etienne: But anyways, I think Heidi was going second today for her fun fact

[00:02:05] Heidi: Speaking of books that fuck with your mind, V.C. Andrews was one of the authors that, yeah, I don't think, most parents knew what those books were or what was happening in them. I don't think they would've ever bought me V.C. Andrews books, but all of us kids kept it on the down low, like, "Don't tell the parents."

[00:02:25] Etienne: Oh my God. I never read that, but I know what happens in those books.

[00:02:29] Heidi: Yeah. Oh my God, I was obsessed. I was obsessed. I read them all. So, apparently, and this is from Odyssey Online, it was five facts about V.C. Andrews. And then the, the subtitle was like, "A look into one of literature's most famous creeps."

[00:02:44] Etienne: Oho ho!

[00:02:44] Heidi: And I was like, "Yeah, she is kind of creepy." So she could tell the future, apparently. So she predicted her wealth and fame, her heart attack, and her father's death.

[00:02:55] Etienne: Okay

[00:02:56] Heidi: She was a little weirdo

[00:02:57] Jane: Whoa.

[00:02:58] Etienne: I, a little

[00:02:59] Jane: when you were like, "Her fame," I was like, "Cool." And then you're like, "Her heart attack," I'm like, "Whoa." And then you're like, "Father's death," and I was like, "Double whoa." Like, that's so dark

[00:03:08] Heidi: And apparently Flowers in the Attic is based on a true story. She said a doctor told her about the story of him and his siblings being locked away.

[00:03:17] Etienne: Wow

[00:03:17] Heidi: so she took it off of some doctor's true life

[00:03:20] Etienne: and then everything locked away and then the whole incest thing happened or?

[00:03:26] Heidi: It didn't get into whether all that happened, but it was like the children were locked away because there was like a fortune that needed to be inherited and the, yeah

[00:03:36] Etienne: that makes sense terribly in a terrible fucked up way. Okay.

[00:03:40] Heidi: Yeah, yeah

[00:03:42] Etienne: Okay

[00:03:42] Jane: incest thing just makes sense in terms of like, well, if this is all you know, and there you are just locked away and it just kinda naturally

[00:03:50] Etienne: you're, you're hitting the puberty and stuff's really raging. All you got is your sister or your brother. Oh my God.

[00:03:58] Jane: I mean

[00:03:59] Etienne: ugh

[00:04:01] Jane: all right, so

[00:04:02] Etienne: Sorry, your

[00:04:02] Jane: My fun fact was also just like I was looking for like the weirdest children's book that has been cited the most throughout history as being the one that truly haunts people. And I went more for like little kids books to be like, okay, what... 'Cause I do remember some from my own childhood that in retrospect especially, I'm like, "What?

[00:04:23] Jane: That's so weird." All right, so this one that I found, I do remember seeing this at a friend's house in England. I never had this myself, so my first encounter with this book was as a young adult. But I was just like, "Was that real?" You ever just see something, 'cause I was high the first time I saw it, so I was like, I was really high at my friend's house when I saw it, so there, maybe it wasn't as messed up as I remember.

[00:04:45] Jane: So I was looking for it, I'm like, "Oh, but it is." All right, so it is called, I'm gonna butcher the pronunciation of this because it's a German children's story, and it's called Struwwelp- Struwwelpeter. It's like S-T-R-U-W-W-E-L-P-E-T-E-R.

[00:05:03] Etienne: Oh, I think the

[00:05:04] Jane: Struwwelpeter. Struwwelpeter.

[00:05:06] Etienne: might be, yeah, the

[00:05:07] Heidi: Wait, what's the translation?

[00:05:10] Etienne: Yeah, I was gonna say, I think the Ws are Vs actually, but I mean, they're pronounced as Vs maybe, maybe. Yeah 

[00:05:16] Jane: Well, that, but that's the name of one of the characters, in this collection of stories. So they were written by this German dude whose last name is Hoffman, and he felt at the time, 'cause this was published in 1845, that he felt that children's books were a too moralizing, not demoralizing, but too much of a, like a didactic, the lesson is.

[00:05:38] Jane: And so he just said, "You know what? Let's just have maybe some cautionary tales still that warn against being disobedient or vain." So there's still like a moral to the story, but he thought he would make them humorous. I thought that they were fucked up when I was 19 and first saw these, so and I was like, if I saw these as a kid, I would be like mortified. So I know that we're not doing a video of this, but, I might just have to

[00:06:05] Etienne: have a link. We could have a link in the show notes 

[00:06:08] Jane: we might have to link it, but I want you guys just to the

[00:06:11] Etienne: gonna show us?

[00:06:12] Jane: can you see? Yeah. Okay.

[00:06:16] Heidi: Oh, what? Yeah.

[00:06:17] Etienne: What? 

[00:06:18] Heidi: Yes

[00:06:19] Etienne: Oh

[00:06:20] Jane: that is, all right, so what they're describing in horror is a picture of a guy with a giant pair of

[00:06:28] Heidi: like a Chia pet too

[00:06:30] Jane: Well, that one, yeah, that's a different character that had these weird branches growing out of their fingers, like branches for hands and like tree stuff going on around their head. So kind of like a human Chia Pet. And then the other story was there was literally a character named Scissorman,

[00:06:44] Etienne: Oh, no. No,

[00:06:45] Jane: they were, yeah. And he would just cut off the thumbs of any kid who sucked their thumb for too long.

[00:06:50] Etienne: Oh, my thumbs would've been gone so early.

[00:06:52] Jane: They're just like, " I'm just gonna cut off your thumbs." Or sometimes their entire

[00:06:56] Etienne: Oh God, that would've been me 'cause I probably would've moved on to a finger. God

[00:07:02] Jane: There was a kid who died of starvation because he wouldn't eat his soup as a kid.

[00:07:05] Jane: Just like really grotesque things. But I remembered specifically, the way that I found this, did a search, is like, "Was there a children's story where somebody was cutting off somebody's hands?" Like this is what I remembered. I was like, "Or was I just really high?" And I do remember that it was a messed up German name, but I saw this like in 1993, so I was like, "I don't know."

[00:07:25] Jane: Oh, yes, and I just thought if I was a kid and I saw that picture, I would've been like, "What is this?" But I did though have a book of nursery rhymes that had illustrations from the 1800s as well, and I do remember some of the illustrations being very disturbing of like five and 20 blackbirds baked in a pie and like whatever.

[00:07:48] Jane: Some of them, they come out and they like, they're pecking people's eyes and like bit off, and bit off a woman's nose, and there are illustrations of that in my nursery rhyme book, that I have upstairs. I kept it thinking, "I'll save this for my own child one day," like when I when I was younger, right?

[00:08:04] Jane: And when my daughter was little, I did not read to her from that book because, I think that she would've thought some of them were frightening. I showed it to her when she was older, and she was like, "This is a little messed up." I'm like, "Isn't it, though?" But I did not have this, Struwwelpeter because, yeah, nightmare fuel. Straight up

[00:08:25] Etienne: You know what? I'm gonna be seeing a German guy in a few weeks, and I'm gonna ask him if he knows about that how to pronounce it

[00:08:33] Heidi: this is the same country that came up with Krampus, right? So

[00:08:37] Jane: Yes. Yes, it is

[00:08:38] Heidi: they like to scare their

[00:08:40] Etienne: yeah, they just...

[00:08:40] Heidi: Yeah

[00:08:41] Etienne: Is that why they have dungeon porn? Is that why German... Like what, what is happening in this

[00:08:46] Heidi: Maybe. They're so scarred.

[00:08:49] Etienne: sorry

[00:08:50] Heidi: turn into dungeon porn when they're adults.

[00:08:54] Etienne: Oh my

[00:08:55] Jane: But there's a little girl who plays with matches in the book, and she burns to death. That's in the book. It's not like, it's not like be careful... Yeah.

[00:09:03] Etienne: We're just doing like the most extreme shit is gonna happen to you if you don't do what you're supposed to do. Like, God

[00:09:11] Jane: Like

[00:09:11] Heidi: don't eat your soup, you will starve to death

[00:09:14] Etienne: I

[00:09:14] Jane: Yes, the kid who doesn't use soup starves to death, the kid who plays with matches burns to death. Like it's not just be careful or that will happen to you. It's like this happened to this person. Don't do it

[00:09:23] Etienne: I suck my thumb and you're gonna fucking cut them off? I mean, Jesus Christ. Kinda need them. Oh, that just sounds awful. I hope they're really, really sharp because it's just gonna hurt. I hope they're not dull and he's just, like, working away at it

[00:09:37] Heidi: Oh, God

[00:09:38] Jane: Oh, that's

[00:09:40] Etienne: I need like a guillotine. I need a guillotine for my thumb. It needs to be quick and sharp.

[00:09:45] Jane: Oh, geez. Like a cigar cutter that's got really, really sharp blades

[00:09:49] Heidi: Oh

[00:09:51] Etienne: God, this got dark so, so fast. I mean, that's the thing. These books are fucked up. And wait, so Heidi brought up a fact that she did not use, about, was it Rumpelstiltskin? And what was the other story?

[00:10:03] Heidi: Yeah, the oldest fairy tales out there, Rumpelstiltskin and Beauty and the Beast apparently are around 4,000 years old. But so they've been told, over and over and over and then, yeah, Brothers Grimm

[00:10:14] Etienne: but are th- is that part of Grimm? Is that Rumpelstiltskin? I mean, are they... I used to have a

[00:10:19] Jane: I don't know if they collected those, but the Brothers Grimm, they were going around central Europe, collecting stories that were popular at the time. So they were passed down at that point, right, through oral tradition going back even further and further. "Beauty and the Beast," so

[00:10:34] Etienne: Yeah

[00:10:34] Jane: those of you who are listening to our episodes in order, the episode that we recorded right before this, 

[00:10:40] Jane: we were talking about literary crushes, and Etty mentioned a character from " A Court of Thorns and Roses," and I just started reading it, and I'm like-- And I, I'm not spoiling anything for you, Heidi.

[00:10:51] Jane: I'm like a couple pages in and I'm like, " This is just Beauty and the Beast.' Like I'm reading, I'm reading 'Beauty and the Beast' right now." But obviously with different things and you have high fae and like all of these different orders of beings. And the world is different than the versions of "Beauty and the Beast" that I read, but like the essence of it, right? I'm

[00:11:09] Etienne: You're right. Yeah

[00:11:10] Jane: I'm like, "This is totally..." I'm like, "Is it supposed to be a retelling of 'Beauty and the Beast?' Because I in it." And I kept thinking, I'm like, "Oh, and then XYZ is probably gonna happen in some kind of way." And then it has been, and I'm like, "Wow, this is

[00:11:24] Etienne: turn around real quick at the end though. So yeah,

[00:11:29] Jane: Okay, don't say anything

[00:11:29] Etienne: it might have been inspired in the beginning, but I would say that that's not kinda what happened. You know what I mean? Like, the- some shit happens where you're like, "Whoa, okay." 

[00:11:37] Jane: But the beginning feels like that, I'm like 30% of the way into the book and I don't know what page I'm on 'cause I'm reading it on a Kindle. So I'm 30% in and it's still feeling "Beauty and the Beast," but I feel like those stories that we're told in childhood, they just have these archetypes in them a lot of the times and like these tropes and we're just kind of trained as kids you know, there's something universal about those recycled stories.

[00:12:00] Jane: So it doesn't really surprise me that they're millennia old, but then sometimes there's something that feels distinctly that maybe it, taps into something very old. But, I don't know.

[00:12:11] Jane: There were so many weird books from my childhood that my mom read to me with all the-- and she did all the voices, that I had a really hard time. I have a really long list next to me. She did not read, the Struwwelpeter or whatever, but there was one she read called "Could Be Worse." And

[00:12:29] Etienne: That sounds

[00:12:29] Jane: do you know this story?

[00:12:30] Etienne: said to me whenever I would try to talk back or say I didn't wanna do something. "Well, it could be worse. "You could've been in Auschwitz," she would go all the way, she would go all the way out there. "Well, you could be starving child in Ethiopia." That was another one of her favorites. Like

[00:12:43] Jane: I got that a lot. I got-- Especially when I had vegetables on my plate that I hadn't finished yet. "You know, starving kids in Ethiopia that..." I'm like, "I know, but this, cook them all weird." But, 

[00:12:54] Etienne: Ay,

[00:12:55] Jane: but "Could Be Worse" is a book by James Stevenson, and it's a picture book, you know, for young kids. And my mom did this funny voice with it, on almost every page, just like, "Could be worse." There's a character in it who's a grandpa who, the kids are exactly what you were just saying, Etty, right? They're complaining, and the grandpa's like, "Well, it could be worse." And then the kids are like, "How?"

[00:13:14] Jane: And he's like, "You could have been swept up by an eagle and dropped on top of a mountain with nothing to eat." So the whole book just has these insane scenarios that are illustrated. They're not really happening, you know? But halfway through the book, as a kid, I would forget that this is just Grandpa pontificating, and trying to scare these kids into, like, you know, " just do what I tell you." That's really what the book should have been called

[00:13:37] Etienne: I tell you or else

[00:13:39] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:40] Jane: Or it could be worse, like, " Stop Your Bitchin'" actually would have been another title.

[00:13:44] Heidi: Yeah, stop your bitching. Shush, shush, shush, shush

[00:13:48] Etienne: Oh my God I can see what is happening. What is happening? What, did you just

[00:13:57] Jane: You'll have to edit that part out. But my, my dog,

[00:14:01] Etienne: You muted it too. I was like, she just-- I, I'm out. I'm like, 

[00:14:04] Jane: I was 

[00:14:05] Etienne: drop the mic. Like I'm just gonna pull it really Sorry.

[00:14:11] Jane: No, it was just Tessa was making a weird noise and Brendon's home, so I'm like, "Get out of here. Go pee or puke or whatever it is you're about to do. Just get out of the

[00:14:19] Etienne: Okay.

[00:14:20] Jane: So I didn't wanna disrupt the flow. I was just kind of like, "Yeah, quit your bitching. Discuss amongst yourselves. The dog's having a 

[00:14:26] Etienne: Out That was fantastic. Oh my god. 

[00:14:34] Jane: Maybe don't edit all of

[00:14:35] Etienne: Oof. No, maybe not, 'cause that was really, really funny. Oh God. Well, I was obsessed with like, okay, so yes, Rumpelstiltskin was one I was obsessed with. I don't know why. Maybe I was like, "If I only I could spin some straw into gold." Like,

[00:14:50] Heidi: Yeah

[00:14:50] Etienne: can I please do that? It would solve all the problems. But also, like Rumpelstiltskin, y- oh, Hansel and Gretel. The Princess and the

[00:14:58] Heidi: I was obsessed with... Yeah, Princess and the Pea. That one isn't too bad though,

[00:15:03] Etienne: I really, really thought about that one a lot though. I mean, I know it's not that messed up, but I really wanted to be like the secret princess that we only know she's a princess by like the pea in the bed or under all the mattresses.

[00:15:13] Heidi: would feel the pea

[00:15:14] Jane: So many mattresses though. I just remember thinking 

[00:15:17] Etienne: how do you get up there? Why are there so many? Do we just like, instead of throwing out the old one, we just put a brand new one on top of it? Like, what are you doing?

[00:15:25] Jane: the picture book that we had with that story in it, I just remember thinking, this is a stupid thought that I was having at the time, given this story, the could-be-worse story and the other stuff and the nursery rhymes, but I remember thinking, "This is very unrealistic." I'm like, oh, but this other stuff, for some...

[00:15:43] Jane: Totally fine. But for some reason, like 40 mattresses stacked on top of each other, I was like, "She couldn't possibly get up there." But other stuff, totally fine. Talking animals and like, you know, garg- yeah,

[00:15:58] Etienne: the, yeah.

[00:15:59] Jane: all of them. I mean, they're so

[00:16:01] Etienne: There's

[00:16:02] Heidi: Riding Hood

[00:16:03] Etienne: many problematic parents. Have we noticed? There's just so many problematic parents in a lot of these stories. Are they trying to tell us stop relying on your parents for things? Like you can't. Just stop it.

[00:16:15] Etienne: Don't even think about that. You just go, I don't care how old you are, just figure out the world. And it's gonna be scary, so just be prepared. Like, that's what it kind of is saying in a way. Jesus. And one of 

[00:16:27] Jane: A lot of evil step-parents

[00:16:29] Etienne: Step- Oh,

[00:16:30] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:31] Etienne: Stepparents. Oh, the dad dies, right? In what? Cinderella. So evil stepmother. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:16:37] Etienne: Hansel and Gretel, why were they in the woods? I don't remember what was the beginning of that. Like why, what happened? They

[00:16:43] Jane: That was also their mother died and they had a stepmother. Well, in the version that I had. And then she was basically trying to get rid of the kids, so she was just like, "Why don't you send them out to forage in the woods and just leave some breadcrumbs behind you that..."

[00:16:56] Jane: Well, actually, they, I think that Hansel came up with that idea because he was like, "I don't wanna lose our way." But then of course, the birds eat all their breadcrumbs, and now they're like, "Where are we?" And then the witch and the whole freaking, they...

[00:17:07] Heidi: cook some kids in, in

[00:17:08] Etienne: house, yeah. Like

[00:17:11] Jane: Yeah, I mean, she's the original like weird Jeffrey Epstein in the woods, right? She's just like, "Come here

[00:17:16] Etienne: yeah, the white man

[00:17:18] Heidi: Hannibal Lecter

[00:17:19] Etienne: Yeah.

[00:17:20] Jane: Oh my God, yeah. She didn't have a van, right? She had a house. Like,

[00:17:24] Heidi: Yeah, the candy house.

[00:17:25] Jane: me. You come to me, and then once you're here,

[00:17:28] Etienne: Hmm. Then we'll eat you.

[00:17:30] Heidi: I'm gonna fatten you up and eat you

[00:17:32] Etienne: You're in trouble

[00:17:33] Jane: Yeah, so I'm rooting for them to like throw her in the oven. Like it's really, you know... And

[00:17:37] Etienne: And we're like cheering when she- yeah, that's not good. Like, this is problematic

[00:17:45] Heidi: Super

[00:17:46] Jane: mom's like, "Good night, sweet dreams." I'm like, "Good night." 

[00:17:49] Etienne: Yeah, she's dead, so we're safe now, right? We can just eat the house. Are we good? Like then I get diabetes and I die. Sorry

[00:17:59] Jane: Oh my God

[00:18:01] Etienne: Oh God, one book that my mom gave me which I thought was apropos, and this was on the list when I did do some research like earlier in the day about what are the most messed up children's books. And, The Giving Tree by Shel Silverstein was on there, and that's one of the books that my mom gave me.

[00:18:16] Etienne: And I thought, "Is this what she's trying to tell me she wants me to do with my life?" Like, just keep... And, she's the little kid and I'm the tree. I, no, yeah, she, she's the little kid and I'm the tree, and I'm just gonna keep giving and giving and giving until I'm just a fucking stump. There's nothing left of me, but go ahead and sit on me. That's all I'm good for now. Like, seriously, like

[00:18:39] Jane: That's how it ends too. Like spoiler

[00:18:41] Etienne: Yes. Oh, I'm so sorry. Yeah, it's not a long

[00:18:44] Jane: 50 years late to this party. But it's loved that book when I was little, right? And I thought, 

[00:18:52] Heidi: All of Shel Silverstein's stuff. 

[00:18:54] Jane: I thought how selfless and just beautiful. And then as an adult I read it, and it was actually my sister, if you're listening, cause I know she listens sometimes, who I think had said like, "I think that that story is like really dysfunctional."

[00:19:06] Jane: And my husband, who was a psychology major, was like, "Oh, that story is 100% dysfunctional." I was like, "But I loved it." And he was like, "When was the last time you read it? Give it a reread." And I reread it and I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is like..." And I think that you're right, Etty, that if your mom was loving that book and she had narcissistic tendencies, it is very much like you are my supply. You are the tree. Just give and give and

[00:19:28] Etienne: give until there's nothing.

[00:19:30] Jane: Oh my God. It's sad.

[00:19:32] Etienne: It is sad. I want to cry every time I read it. I read it a lot.

[00:19:38] Jane: Oh my gosh

[00:19:39] Etienne: I know. Now I feel bad for me. No. I

[00:19:44] Jane: We wanna go back in time and give little Etty a hug and be like, "It's okay. You don't have to be the tree."

[00:19:49] Etienne: No, but come on. If I didn't have that messed up childhood, I wouldn't be who I am today. I don't know if I would... Like, if I had normal parents who took care of me properly, I don't know if I would like me. I might be really fucking boring, you know? I might be still married and maybe have had children.

[00:20:06] Etienne: I don't know. Who knows? But I like who I am. I love who I am. So I had to have all of that shit happen to me so that I could be who I am today. It's worth it. I would take all of it. I would literally do all of it again to be who I am today,

[00:20:20] Heidi: Me

[00:20:20] Jane: That's a very healthy attitude

[00:20:22] Etienne: Thank you

[00:20:23] Heidi: Did you guys read Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark

[00:20:27] Etienne: No, but I saw that was on the list of like most messed up childhood books.

[00:20:32] Heidi: It was. I think it was the illustrations 'cause the stories were kind of ta- you know, like, they're scary, but, it was the illustrations that, you know,

[00:20:39] Etienne: Do you remember the...

[00:20:40] Heidi: the most haunting

[00:20:41] Etienne: You do remember the illustrations, specifically? Damn. Okay. Were they also moral, like, giving us some kind of a moral that we're supposed to be following? Yeah.

[00:20:49] Heidi: Yeah. Yeah

[00:20:50] Etienne: Yeah, it's just making me wonder what those were. Probably do what I say, shut up and do what you're supposed to do.

[00:20:58] Etienne: Don't lie. I don't know, I'm just making stuff up. I don't know with that one in particular. But yeah, the internet was saying that was one, because of the illustrations, that that one was one of the scariest children's books. Are you looking. 

[00:21:08] Jane: I'm sorry. I'm looking at some of the pictures and nope, nope, nope, nope. I don't

[00:21:12] Etienne: You're not

[00:21:12] Heidi: So you never read them as a kid?

[00:21:15] Etienne: never read them, no

[00:21:16] Heidi: Oh God, they were some of my favorites. 'Cause I was in, I know I was into ghosts. Yeah, I was ghost stories, Stephen King from a young age, and then even the Choose Your Own Adventure books, you know? A lot of

[00:21:29] Etienne: Ooh, what the hell? Look at those pictures. That is

[00:21:32] Heidi: Yeah, the scarecrow one always, yeah

[00:21:35] Etienne: That is not good

[00:21:36] Jane: No.

[00:21:37] Etienne: Oof. That one is, that one looks like a zombie. What the hell is that? Is there a zombie story in there?

[00:21:44] Jane: I don't know. I don't want to know

[00:21:47] Etienne: Looks like we can get a used one from... Yeah, we can get one for like four bu- $3. Okay. Oh my God. Oh my Lord

[00:21:56] Jane: I will say, like I did, I can read, and Heidi knows this because over the years when she's working on a screenplay, I'm like, "All right, I'll read this, but, I don't wanna see this film." Like if I'm reading, I can read scary stuff, but if I'm watching a movie, then I'm like, "Ah, I'm out."

[00:22:10] Jane: Cause I can't control it in my head. So I did read some scary stuff when I was younger, but I didn't know that book. I've heard of it now, but I didn't read it when I was younger. 

[00:22:18] Jane: But I did read it when I was in middle school, like the first scary book that I read was a book by Lois Duncan called "Stranger With My Face."

[00:22:25] Jane: And Lois Duncan, she had a bunch of like, yeah, YA fiction in the '70s and '80s, it was pretty intense. I read it when I was in sixth grade, and I was maybe a little young to read it, but I was just like, I was... One of those things where it scared me, but I was reading it anyway, like late into the night, and then just like turning off the light and looking around like, "Okay."

[00:22:45] Jane: It was about twins that had been separated at a very young age, so they didn't know each other. But the evil twin, there's always an evil twin, right? But the evil one somehow tracks down the good one through, she can astral project, and so she astral projects herself into the good twin's, like bedroom, and somehow kicks her out of her body and like can take over her bo- like, yeah.

[00:23:07] Jane: Anyway, it was a messed up story. So she's like walking around in her life and then the good twin is just like hanging around in an astral body trying to figure out how to get back into her

[00:23:16] Etienne: Oh, that's so frightening

[00:23:18] Jane: And, so that's how I learned about astral projection,

[00:23:20] Etienne: say, I was gonna say, is that before or after you astral projected yourself? Because I know you-

[00:23:25] Jane: After. After. 'Cause the first time that it happened to me in real life, I was in second grade and I had no idea what was going on. So that was actually one of the reasons why it was so terrifying, 'cause I was just like, "Oh my gosh, this happened to me when I was younger, so could this happen to me? Could someone kick me..."

[00:23:43] Jane: I never thought about somebody kicking me out and taking over, right? So I found that book terrifying. But Lois Duncan, very good writer, but it felt very, very real to me so I didn't really read too many scary things after reading that one

[00:23:57] Etienne: Dude, that's, yeah, that's messed up. Yeah, and I never read V.C. Andrews, Flowers in the Attic. I don't remember what the other...

[00:24:03] Heidi: I read all the books. They were just so trashy. Like, it contained every... It was like soap opera in

[00:24:10] Etienne: That's what it can...

[00:24:11] Heidi: but with teenage characters. So yeah, they were super trashy, but they were fun to read. And then 

[00:24:19] Heidi: Choose Your Own Adventure books, there were some messed up ones that I remember. I don't remember the titles necessarily, 'cause they were, you know, they were just, like, cheap paperbacks that they were just cranking out. But I remember one of the books, it was like a romance Choose Your Own Adventure, but the girl gets pregnant and throws herself down the stairs to get rid of the pregnancy.

[00:24:39] Etienne: Oh my gosh

[00:24:41] Heidi: I remember thinking like, "Oh, if I ever get pregnant, I know what to do now." Like, it was,

[00:24:47] Etienne: Sorry, sorry.

[00:24:48] Heidi: you know, as a little kid, I was just like, "Oh, okay, that's what you 

[00:24:51] Jane: You're just like, "Yeah, I'll just give myself a staircase abortion." What the fuck? I never told you that

[00:24:56] Etienne: I had, I think I had heard of that when I was a kid, that whole throw yourself down the stairs business. I don't know if that actually works. I know it's bad if somebody kicks you in the stomach. You know, like if you get beat up when you're pregnant, like that's terrible and that could definitely cause an abor- I mean, so many things can cause an abortion, but obviously if you really want one, then of course none of those things will probably work. But sorry.

[00:25:16] Jane: See, look how dark we got. Like, this is how, And when I was a little kid, I do remember sometimes just having, like, I mean, I didn't have staircase abortion thoughts when I wasn't reading V.C. Andrews. But when I was, like, little, little, and my mom would read, like, a weird story, I did have some dark thoughts afterwards.

[00:25:34] Jane: There was another children's story she read to us called Socks for Supper about this little old couple that was really-- They were really poor. She was making socks and then selling it for cheese. And they didn't have enough money, so she was using the sweater she knit for her husband and basically the only sweater he had, and she was knitting socks out of his sweater into little socks to sell in exchange for cheese to eat.

[00:26:00] Jane: And so he had kinda nothing to wear. And I just remember thinking, I don't remember the ending of the story, but I do remember going to bed going, "I just don't ever wanna be that poor." Like, I mean, it was just like, that was, it was sad

[00:26:13] Etienne: Oh. I don't know if... Yeah, I don't know if this was a book, but do you guys... this is so bad. 

[00:26:18] Etienne: The Christmas story about the matchstick girl, the girl who sells

[00:26:22] Heidi: Yeah, match sticker. I was just thinking about that

[00:26:24] Etienne: she box. I don't know why, like, immediately I was thinking of the matchstick girl, trying to sell the matches to, get money so she could... 'cause she's on the street.

[00:26:30] Heidi: That was haunting

[00:26:31] Etienne: all she has is the matchsticks to sell, and I know I saw a movie about it. It was a movie for sure, but I don't know if was a. But that, that

[00:26:39] Heidi: No, it was a book

[00:26:40] Etienne: me, like, to this day. I mean, God. Man, I f- I feel like our children's books when we were growing up were way more haunting lifelong imprinting on us than we

[00:26:52] Heidi: Yum-yum

[00:26:52] Etienne: ima- You know what I mean? Like, I don't know

[00:26:54] Jane: Yeah, it was based on a book. I just, when you guys said that, I'm like, "That is so sad." It's actually, it's originally a Hans Christian Andersen

[00:27:01] Etienne: Oh, okay. Okay.

[00:27:02] Jane: "The Little Match Girl," classic poignant fairy tale by Danish author Hans Christian Andersen. 1845, same 

[00:27:10] Etienne: year as that

[00:27:11] Jane: as that Struwwelpeter or whatever, about a poor barefoot girl selling matches on a cold New Year's Eve who freezes to death while seeing visions of warmth and her deceased grandmother in the flames. What in the actual fuck? That is

[00:27:25] Etienne: That is not a good, this should not be a children's book. I'm telling you, it still haunts me and I'm 54 years old. It should not, should not be... I think of it almost, I think it comes up in my brain every time Christmas comes around, because they'd always show that movie at Christmas time.

[00:27:38] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:39] Jane: Oh my God, she dies. She freezes to death.

[00:27:43] Etienne: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:43] Jane: This is terrible

[00:27:44] Etienne: Oh my God. Well, you know what's really fucked up too is supposedly when you freeze to death, you actually start feeling warm again. You feel like as you're freezing, like when you hit a certain point, you feel warm. That is messed up. But I

[00:27:57] Jane: I remember that from a Jack London story called "To Build a Fire" that I actually, I used to teach it when I was a teacher, but I read it when I was young also. Probably also too young to read that story. But the guy freezes to death in it. Spoiler alert also, if you're late to that party, it's a very old story.

[00:28:13] Jane: But, at the end, he's like delirious and he feels warm again, so he takes

[00:28:17] Etienne: All his clothes

[00:28:18] Jane: running around naked, and the wolf that is hanging out with him, like waiting to be like, "Dude, make a fire, I'm cold too," is looking at him like, "What are you doing?" And he, yeah, he just like runs around and then falls down naked in the snow and dies.

[00:28:30] Jane: But, I do remember thinking like, "Oh my God." And at the end of the story, the wolf just gets up like, "All right, I'm off to find another person to keep me warm."

[00:28:38] Etienne: Well, at least he didn't eat the man. I guess he could've

[00:28:40] Heidi: Yeah, that

[00:28:41] Etienne: bo- I thought that was where, I thought that's where we were going. He's gonna eat the man. Yeah, exactly.

[00:28:48] Jane: It ends there, but maybe did eat them and then go look. That, that would be like To Build a Fire part two

[00:28:55] Heidi: Yeah

[00:28:56] Etienne: what happens after?

[00:28:58] Jane: Yes. They call it 

[00:29:00] Heidi: don't want them

[00:29:00] Etienne: the wolf could like cut him open, maybe crawl inside, do a little like, What is it? One of the Star Wars movies, the ones where they're on H-

[00:29:06] Heidi: So Empire Strikes Back, yeah, when he

[00:29:09] Etienne: gonna like laser that shit open and crawl inside that nasty... Yeah.

[00:29:13] Heidi: Yum-yum

[00:29:15] Jane: Jack London, the character who's not given a name is just the man. There's the man and the dog. And I think the dog is part wolf. That's what it is. It's been a while since I've read the story. But he does, the man in the story, think about cutting the wolf open ' to keep his hands warm because his hands are so he can't feel his hands and he's trying to strike matches and he keeps dropping them in the snow because he can't feel his hands, and now he's getting frostbite because he took the gloves

[00:29:38] Etienne: Oh, no,

[00:29:39] Jane: just like, you know, the whole thing. And it's such a bad, you're like, "Oh my God," you feel like you're watching like a horror movie going, "Don't go into the room alone," you know? And he's just doing all the wrong things. But he thinks like, "Oh, I could get my hands warm if I just could cut the wolf open and put my hands in there."

[00:29:56] Jane: And he starts going at the dog-wolf, and the dog just like, "Get away from me," like starts growling at him. Like he can tell like, " you're off your nut, man."

[00:30:04] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:05] Etienne: Wolf is gonna be way faster than the man, at least in stamina-wise too, like

[00:30:09] Jane: Exactly. But he's just delirious, you know? But again, that wasn't for kids, but I do remember that being kind of like required reading for junior high. At eighth grade, like that's kind of like a standard let's read this. And so it's kinda dark, but not as dark as "The Little Match Girl."

[00:30:27] Heidi: well, in

[00:30:28] Heidi: Lord of the Flies,

[00:30:29] Etienne: Oh, Lord of the Flies.

[00:30:30] Heidi: that was hauting

[00:30:31] Etienne: But we know when that has happened in real life, that is not what actually happens. So, luckily, but yeah, Lord of the Flies, I read that when I was 18 or 19. I didn't have required reading for that one, but I wanted to read it, and yeah, I love that book.

[00:30:45] Etienne: But I did recently read that when that did happen in real life where kids were stranded somehow in this place, that they actually worked together. Nobody was running around trying to hurt other people, which is awesome

[00:30:59] Heidi: It's a different culture too. I don't know if it's boys from America,

[00:31:04] Etienne: Oh God. Well wait, if we did Boys for America today, I don't know what would happen. Like

[00:31:08] Heidi: That's what I'm saying. Like, I think it would be Lord of the Flies. I don't know. 

[00:31:13] Jane: I think that it depends on the kid. But the story that you're talking about, Etty, that was, it happened in the '60s, and they were teenagers from Tonga,

[00:31:21] Heidi: Ponga

[00:31:22] Jane: and they ended up, they were alone for 15 months, and they were able... Yeah, there were six of them. Yeah, there's been a lot written about that particular instance.

[00:31:30] Jane: And I did used to teach "Lord of the Flies," which is why I know about this crazy story. They cooperated and everything because some kids would be like, "Ah, we would be fine." And other kids were like, "I think we would all be dead on like day three." You know? So I think it just depends on the kids and the skill set and their upbringing and some of the circumstances and,

[00:31:49] Etienne: I would definitely like want some kid who knows about wilderness or survivalist or some kind of, you know, who's gonna help with the fire and

[00:31:56] Heidi: out

[00:31:57] Jane: 100%. I want some Eagle Scouts on the island with me, some people with skills.

[00:32:01] Etienne: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:02] Jane: I'd want my sister there 'cause my sister has like a lot of, you know, flora and fauna knowledge.

[00:32:06] Etienne: Oh, that's right

[00:32:07] Jane: I think that when you're... I read that book for the first time, like as a teenager, you know, and I'm thinking, "Oh, that's really messed up," right? But the, but not still, still not as messed as some of these fairytales.

[00:32:18] Heidi: No, yeah

[00:32:19] Jane: Cause I'm thinking like, "Oh, it's a, it's age appropriate." I'm like, "But is it really age appropriate to..." Like even something seemingly innocuous Goldilocks and the Three Bears, this chick is just walking into a house, it's not her house.

[00:32:31] Heidi: Yeah. 

[00:32:31] Jane: just like, you

[00:32:32] Heidi: Eating all our food,

[00:32:34] Jane: Yeah, and she falls asleep in their bed, you know? And the bears are like, you know, "Who

[00:32:39] Heidi: What the heck?

[00:32:40] Jane: Yeah. And they're just like, "Someone's been sleeping in my bed," and she's still here, and then she just like wakes up, she runs away. It's weird. There's just some weirdness in some of these stories where I'm trying to be like, "What's

[00:32:51] Heidi: The old woman in the shoe

[00:32:52] Jane: Who had so many 

[00:32:54] Etienne: She didn't know what to do, right? Yep.

[00:32:56] Heidi: Yeah

[00:32:58] Jane: They're everywhere. She can't feed them

[00:33:00] Etienne: Well, what if we talk about nursery rhymes, Ring Around the Rosie, I thought was about the plague, but I think it's about something else actually. I always thought it was the plague, but I think it's a different disease that they were talking about for Ring Around the Rosie. You're looking it up, Jane. It 

[00:33:13] Jane: it smallpox? 'Cause it's like, let me see. "Ring Around the Rosie." Because it's like there's the mark, right, that you have, and then... Okay, so it is the Great Plague of London, and, yeah. So they, people would fill their pockets with flowers. I don't know. It was, yeah, okay, there was a rash. So "Ring Around the Rosey," that was the rash of that particular brand of plague in London in the 17th century, and it likely refers to the circular red rash that surrounded the inflamed lymph nodes of plague victims.

[00:33:43] Jane: How lovely.

[00:33:44] Etienne: I wonder if there are little kids still singing that song. Like, we used to sing that song when we would jump rope and stuff. I don't know why. You know? It'd be like turning the jump rope ring. Like, why are we singing this? 

[00:33:57] Jane: It's right up there. It was just like it said, like it's fucking creepy

[00:34:01] Etienne: Mm-hmm

[00:34:01] Heidi: And then we gotta remember, these are all adults writing these things for children, and they're all thinking this is appropriate. And the parents buying them going, "Yeah, this, this is good."

[00:34:11] Etienne: Yeah. I think I should go into the children's section at the library and read what is popular today for the kids to read, for the little kids to read, you know? I'd like to check out the LGBTQ+ authors and what they're writing for probably, I assume middle school.

[00:34:26] Etienne: I don't know like what age range that would be for starting out at. I think that's really positive. I would love that. I wonder how much more advanced we're gonna be 50 years from when those kids are all grown up and, you know, I'm hoping that they're very accepting of themselves and others and what they wanna do sexually, you know? Consent 

[00:34:45] Jane: maybe there's just a kids book where there's parents are, they have gay parents, but that's not like the central part of the story. It's just normalized. It's just like, okay, well I have two mom... I know there's books out there, and I didn't have any of them when my daughter's gonna be 19, and so I'm just trying to think of some things that she had when she was younger. 

[00:35:01] Jane: Cause I did read to her some classics that, that I didn't think were weird, like "Goodnight Moon," where it's just someone, the whole thing of that book, it's like a mood piece, and it's just a kid saying goodnight to everything in his room. Like, "Goodnight," you know, "Goodnight to the little mouse. Goodnight to..." Which, which you don't really want a mouse in your room, so that is actually messed up. That's, let's clean up a little bit and get rid of

[00:35:20] Etienne: Yeah. Is that a live mouse? Is that a- alive?

[00:35:23] Jane: to- totally, totally in the

[00:35:24] Etienne: not okay. Unless it's in a cage or it's their pet. Okay, no.

[00:35:27] Jane: Nope. No that's problem number one. But the other things are just goodnight lamp, and goodnight to my blanket, goodnight to things in the room, goodnight rocking chairs, that kind of stuff.

[00:35:35] Jane: And then it's like goodnight moon, and then the last line of it is like goodnight noises everywhere because it's just like saying goodnight to the old lady whispering hush. That's a little bit weird. Cause you're like, who is that? Is she the grandma? Is she downstairs? Why is she in this story? Never mind.

[00:35:48] Etienne: Her hearing must be really good that she can like

[00:35:52] Jane: Yes. You hear it? You hear that old woman saying, "Hush, 

[00:35:55] Jane: she had a book called "Rainbow Fish" that was actually really a story, but a little "Giving Tree" vibe 'cause, uh, the rainbow fish had a lot of like really pretty shiny scales, and the other fish were jealous, so it started giving some of its shiny scales to them. So was I teaching my child like, "Don't be special, give a..."

[00:36:15] Etienne: Yeah. So if your, if your friends are jealous of something special that you have, just start giving it to them so they feel better.

[00:36:21] Jane: my God, make yourself less shiny so they feel

[00:36:23] Etienne: Yeah, exactly. That's what

[00:36:24] Jane: Fuck. Why I'm-- I-- It did not occur to me at the time when I was reading this to

[00:36:28] Etienne: Oh my God. Well, you know what's... So back to, like, the LGBTQ stuff, though. I have to say, I've encountered more than one person that been talking to or, and/or dating, one or the other, who do not label themselves as bisexual, but think that it is okay, and it totally is, obviously, I'm not saying it's not okay, that it's okay to do things with their same sex, but that does not make them gay or bisexual.

[00:36:54] Etienne: So I'm thinking that is probably a result reading these kinds of books when they were elementary or middle school or something, that they think if, if they don't wanna have a relationship with the opposite sex... Or sorry, with the same sex, that that means they're not bisexual or gay. But if they have relations a same sex's genitals, then that's okay, but that doesn't make them gay. I don't know. It's confusing

[00:37:23] Heidi: This is repressed, Southern guys that don't wanna admit it

[00:37:26] Etienne: Well no, one is not Southern. The other one, maybe. I don't know yet. But one is definitely not Southern. He's from north, the northern areas. But yeah, I'm thinking it's a odd way to look at things. but okay. Like... what do you think about that, Jane? You look confused.

[00:37:44] Jane: I'm wondering if it's just a fluidity thing. I think there are a lot of people who just say like, "Yeah, you know, I'm some kind of queer," you know? Like they don't wanna put a label on it, you know?

[00:37:53] Etienne: Yeah

[00:37:53] Jane: Or Maybe they're pansexual. They don't wanna say that, but they're just like, "Yeah, it depends on the person." They're like, "Yeah, if I'm attracted to them, maybe I'll just like, you know, I'll dabble. I'll dabble." Because there's not as much stigma and they don't have to own any kind of label. But I do think that you're right, that there has been and this is a good thing, a lot of representation, and I was looking at if there were some highly regarded children's books that had lGBTQ+ themes, and, when-- I'm trying to find their publication dates, right? So to see, like, what's the timeline, and I feel like

[00:38:24] Etienne: how do, how long do we have to wait before they're, you know, they're a more, a prominent part of

[00:38:28] Heidi: John Oliver did one, right?

[00:38:30] Jane: He did?

[00:38:31] Heidi: Yeah, 

[00:38:31] Jane: Well, that's pretty cool 

[00:38:32] Heidi: That bunny one

[00:38:34] Jane: As if I needed another reason to love John Oliver. But I, I think that,

[00:38:39] Heidi: I can't remember what it's called

[00:38:40] Jane: There's been a lot of just normalizing representation in children's television, movies, and the books. But I'm just looking at some of the books that I'm finding right now of just LGBTQ affirming picture books. Some of them are like, young and it shows little kids that have two moms and, I think that that's great. And, if you grow up and you see that, and I'm looking at the publication dates of some of these. Some of them go back 10 years. 

[00:39:01] Etienne: Okay

[00:39:02] Jane: you know, and I think that that's really

[00:39:05] Heidi: title of the book is A Day in the Life of Marlon Bundo, and this bunny lives with Grandpa Mike Pence and falls in love with another boy bunny, wesley, 

[00:39:16] Jane: Oh so this isn't like an actual story for little kids. This is just something John Oliver did as like a

[00:39:21] Heidi: but it's a children's book. Like, it's a legit children's book

[00:39:24] Jane: And he names one of the bunnies Mike Pence.

[00:39:26] Heidi: No, no, no. The bunny lives with Mike Pence.

[00:39:30] Jane: Oh, oh, oh, okay. Mike Pence

[00:39:31] Heidi: 'Cause it was based on

[00:39:33] Jane: That's weirder

[00:39:34] Heidi: actual bunny, and he made the bunny gay.

[00:39:37] Etienne: Oh, that's really good

[00:39:38] Heidi: But yeah, his proceeds were donated to the Trevor Project and AIDS United.

[00:39:43] Jane: Yes

[00:39:44] Heidi: Yeah

[00:39:44] Etienne: Man

[00:39:45] Jane: See? That's amazing. 

[00:39:47] Heidi: And then could've sworn there was like, there was like a penguin one too

[00:39:51] Jane: There is. That was actually on the list that I was just looking at that showed, like, "And Tango Makes Three," I think it was called.

[00:39:57] Heidi: Yeah

[00:39:58] Jane: And I think it was based on a real-life story of penguins in a zoo that were gay. And, um, because that, that happens, and sometimes dolphins are gay, and I think that 

[00:40:05] Etienne: That shows that yeah, it's not just us, you know? It's everywhere, yeah. Uh, you know what'd be great is if one day we just got to a point where nobody labeled themselves what their sexuality is. There's just no more labels. We just do, what we do and who we're attracted to, and we don't have to have a label for it anymore

[00:40:22] Jane: Yeah, 'cause it's just not-- I mean, I've said this to my daughter about her sexuality. I'm like, "It's kind of like one of the least cool things about you." There's so many other things, it's like, why focus on that? Why lead with that? You know what I mean?

[00:40:33] Jane: It's like, I am so many other things, and then in the bedroom, this is what I like to do. But it's really nobody's business, unless I want to talk about 

[00:40:43] Etienne: There you go. Yeah

[00:40:44] Jane: because we are having an open conversation about a shared human experience, it doesn't have to focus on that.

[00:40:50] Jane: So I think it'd be awesome if it's just the background of a book and doesn't have to be the focus of a book. I think of all the heteronormative couples and like all the stories from my childhood, right? And it would be nice to have some other stuff sprinkled in there.

[00:41:05] Jane: Like, I wouldn't have minded meeting Tango at the zoo and seeing the penguin story. That's kinda, that's pretty cool

[00:41:11] Etienne: Aw. That's so sweet. So wait, are there any other books on your list there, Jane, that you wanted to talk about? You said you had a big giant list of messed up books there

[00:41:19] Jane: Oh yeah, just no, I'm good. I d- we did the highlights. We did the highlights of like the weirdest ones that just haunt me. Definitely "Stranger with My Face" and 

[00:41:27] Jane: The Runaway Bunny actually was kind of

[00:41:29] Etienne: What's the runaway bunny?

[00:41:30] Jane: read The Runaway Bunny? It was also like a picture book, and it was just a little boy bunny, and when you said like, you know, these rabbits, there's no... they don't belong to Mike Pence. They're just, they're rabbits in their own rabbit world. You know how sometimes you, like you're reading a story and you're just like, "Okay, these are just anthropomorphic animals," you know? They just have... So it was like a mommy bunny and a baby bunny, and the baby bunny is just like, you know, "I'm gonna run away," 'cause he's, whatever, he's having a bad day.

[00:41:54] Jane: Y- you're, you know, we all had that as a kid. Like I would pack stuff in a blanket like a freaking hobo and strap it to like a broomstick, and I'm like, "I'm leaving 'cause I can't have..." whatever it was. And so the bunny's having one of those days and like, "I'm gonna run away." And the mom's like, "Well, then I will come and find you."

[00:42:09] Jane: And he's just like, "No, you won't 'cause I'm gonna sail far, far away." She's like, "Well, then I will be the wind." And like all the pictures are the mom bunny morphing into like big clouds and boats and just all... Basically, it was just like, "No matter where you go, Mommy will see."

[00:42:23] Jane: And it's like in one, you could look at it from the sweet lens of like I always have you and I'm always gonna come find you and I'm always gonna be there for you. Or depending upon what mood I was in, there were some nights where my mom read it and I was like, "This is really sweet." And then there were some nights where she read it where I'm like, "This is a little too much. This is a

[00:42:43] Etienne: It's a little too much

[00:42:45] Jane: And I hadn't thought about it in years, and then she bought it for my daughter when she was a baby, and it was the first book that she read to my daughter when she was brand new. Like she was like a week old she read her The Runaway Bunny.

[00:42:58] Jane: She's like, "And I will find you." And she did all the voices that she did, like I remember her doing when I was little. And I was like, "All right. Creepy."

[00:43:05] Etienne: Creepy. 100% creepy go, go grandma.

[00:43:10] Jane: Yeah. But it was very sweet that she was helping me and, like, reading it. Yeah. But it was like, "No matter what you do, no matter where you go, I'll find you."

[00:43:19] Heidi: And that's our show. You've been listening to The Women Are Plotting. If you have a story you'd like to share or have any comments, we'd love to hear from you. Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com. And of course, you can find us on all the socials. Thanks, and until next time, be safe and be excellent to each other